Do you think states should open back up?

[bolt.]

24 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

i disagree. Look at @Bolt's post. She specifically said 16 year old kids with resources should do that. English is my third language, but I don't think I am that bad that I will spend time basically fighting on a message board for something I believe strongly in if I misunderstood. Read the thread. I stand by what I said or point it out to me.

I said,

1. "Maybe students of advanced ability *can* just test-out and stay home. Maybe they can test-out and start college."

2. "They should stay home, find something useful to do for their community, and carry on their studies under the direction of a parent or mentor. If a college (community or otherwise) wants them, and they want college, and distance learning is working, and the student seems mature enough for the challenge: that might be a useful relationship. If not, then not."

So, I'm thinking you misunderstood my use of the words, maybe / can / if / might. By reading these direct quotes, I think you will notice the lack of the word "should" in the context of going to college. It will also become clear that I consider college for 16yos simply one possible option. It's not even the option I mentioned first.

[Sk8ermaiden]

35 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

But what is considered to be a "big deal" can change. It's already changed many times before. As things stand now, it does not look like to hold large gatherings before a vaccine is available. Graduations, proms, football games, band concerts, etc are large gatherings. Schools may cancel these events next year in caution. They may hold the events, because they are a "big deal," but some children won't attend. Either way, the there is an impact. I know this is a big disappointment to kids and their parents. 

I think that people assume that what is a big to middle class parents is a big deal to all public school parents. I'd agree that graduations are a milestone for every kid but proms? Do all American kids attend proms? 

 

Some don't because they don't want to, but a majority do. Prom may look different different places (school gym vs. event venue, seated dinner vs. you go eat first with your friends), but it's a pretty big deal and has been for several generations. There are even charities that collect donated formal dresses and offer them free to girls who could not otherwise afford them because prom is seen as such a big rite of passage. (Here we mostly only have senior prom, so it's a bigger deal than those that can go for multiple years.) But the Title I schools downtown are just as big on prom as the ones in wealthy neighborhoods.

I HOPE I am wrong and am happy to be wrong, but I don't think an *effective* vaccine is coming down the pipe anytime soon (by soon I mean next 2 years). And even if it did, what percentage of the population will be comfortable getting it when animal testing was skipped and human testing was rushed?

I think we're far more likely to open up everything once we find a good antiviral or other treatment that makes this less deadly for the majority of the population. And I don't think that's going to take as long as a vaccine. 

Editing this to add: Obviously prom won't happen if it's unsafe. Lots of things get canceled or missed in a crisis. But an above poster said that if kids were AP they should just have to leave school since they'd learned enough to constitute a basic education. Since prom and graduation and senior year are considered a pretty huge deal to most people, forcing kids out of school for being too advanced is basically a penalty for achieving. Especially since by the time they were seniors in 2 years, those big events would almost certainly be back on.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Sk8ermaiden

[Paige]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Lemme ask a dumb question.  Why can't kids in "AP" classes actually just participate in the higher grade classes?  Or if they are so smart, why can't they learn the additional info independently?

What higher grade classes? I don't even know what that would be. Like if you were taking AP Calc, what would the option be? 

As for learning independently, I really tried to get DS to do that. He wasn't challenged in his "Honors" classes and there was nowhere else to go. He could have tested out but they wouldn't let him because of their program. He complained that he didn't have time to do additional work because all his time was spent on required busywork homework. Knowing the material and being able to do it well doesn't mean that essays, math questions, stoopid group projects, etc, suddenly take no time at all. He also would have received no college credit for what he did. He did study some things independently but he still had to attend class and do the assigned homework, still had his extracurricular commitments, and still wanted free time. I would be all about letting advanced kids test out and do their own things with no penalty. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I care very very much about education, but in a case like the present, something has to give.  I am more concerned about making sure everyone can read and do basic math than spending resources on kids who already have a huge advantage.

Some kids don't have the advantage you imagine just because they are smart. Being able to learn and grow is a mental health issue. We also have laws about kids getting a free and appropriate education. If we suddenly want to quit providing appropriate education we'll have to change the laws. 

 

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

I don't think they are. AP classes are supposed to be college level classes offered in high school. In order to get college credit, they have to take a standardized AP exam, which are difficult exams. Each university determines which, if any, subjects and exam scores they will give college credit for after a student is admitted, so taking an AP class doesn't guarantee a student won't have to retake a class with the same material in a university setting. As far as high school transcripts go, if a transcript is weighted, they are weighted higher so that a student who takes AP American Government earns a higher GPA than a student that takes high school level GPA. This can improve the chances of getting admitted to more competitive colleges.

But, no. AP classes are not necessary to a high school education, a high school diploma, a college degree, a job, a successful career, a successful life, a content life, a joyful life.

Exactly. And many school districts in the country offer no AP classes at all and their students go on to do just fine. Coming from a small, rural school district, I never even heard of AP until I got to college. Yet three of us from my small high school graduating class went on to get grad degrees from some of the top universities in the country. And many others became lawyer, teachers, doctors, nurses, physical therapists, business owners, etc.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Frances

[GoodGrief]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Lemme ask a dumb question.  Why can't kids in "AP" classes actually just participate in the higher grade classes?  Or if they are so smart, why can't they learn the additional info independently?

 

I'm not entirely sure I understand this question. What do you mean by "higher grade" classes?

You're not going to find me arguing that AP classes are essential, but it's a way of offering advanced content. High school does not work like elementary school with specific classes offering "grade level" content.

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, Paige said:

As for learning independently, I really tried to get DS to do that. He wasn't challenged in his "Honors" classes and there was nowhere else to go. He could have tested out but they wouldn't let him because of their program. He complained that he didn't have time to do additional work because all his time was spent on required busywork homework. Knowing the material and being able to do it well doesn't mean that essays, math questions, stoopid group projects, etc, suddenly take no time at all. He also would have received no college credit for what he did. He did study some things independently but he still had to attend class and do the assigned homework, still had his extracurricular commitments, and still wanted free time. I would be all about letting advanced kids test out and do their own things with no penalty. 

Some kids don't have the advantage you imagine just because they are smart. Being able to learn and grow is a mental health issue. We also have laws about kids getting a free and appropriate education. If we suddenly want to quit providing appropriate education we'll have to change the laws.

Just because a person doesn't have the inclination or ability to do advanced self study does not mean he needs or deserves a taxpayer-funded advanced course - especially in the late teen years.  It's a nice-to-have for times when districts have the resources for nice-to-haves.

Being smart is a huge advantage which kids got for free.  I have a kid like that.  She gets most of her assigned work done in minutes per day.  My other kid takes until close to midnight each day to finish the same work.

It is great if my smart kid gets a specially-tailored program that both meets her intellectual potential and compensates for the fact that she has little desire to do this for herself.  However, even before Covid, that was relatively low on the list of priorities for my home or my kids' school.  Yes, I put more into helping my other kid keep up, and I expect school systems to do the same.  My advanced kid is always welcome and encouraged to exert herself if she wants to develop her God-given advantages.  But I will not channel scarce resources away from more needy people to force still more advantages on a teen who doesn't care about them.

[TechWife]

14 minutes ago, Paige said:

What higher grade classes? I don't even know what that would be. Like if you were taking AP Calc, what would the option be? 

As for learning independently, I really tried to get DS to do that. He wasn't challenged in his "Honors" classes and there was nowhere else to go. He could have tested out but they wouldn't let him because of their program. He complained that he didn't have time to do additional work because all his time was spent on required busywork homework. Knowing the material and being able to do it well doesn't mean that essays, math questions, stoopid group projects, etc, suddenly take no time at all. He also would have received no college credit for what he did. He did study some things independently but he still had to attend class and do the assigned homework, still had his extracurricular commitments, and still wanted free time. I would be all about letting advanced kids test out and do their own things with no penalty. 

Some kids don't have the advantage you imagine just because they are smart. Being able to learn and grow is a mental health issue. We also have laws about kids getting a free and appropriate education. If we suddenly want to quit providing appropriate education we'll have to change the laws. 

 

 

In the scenario we are discussing, the student do independent study and not busywork classes. Extracurricular activities also don’t exist. 

Learning & growing isn’t confined to the school - that’s what some of us have tried to point out. 
 

Yes, laws would need to be changed or exemptions granted. That is already going on in some areas for some things like minimum number of schooldays, classroom hours, etc., so this is not insurmountable. The discussion has been going on for quite a while in regards to what “appropriate “ means. In some school systems it means both developmental delays & LD students are educated at an appropriate level and that advanced students are educated at an appropriate level. Other systems don’t include advanced students in the mix of those who should get an advanced education on the premise that a student receiving a grade level education is already receiving an appropriate education  - at this point that is a state or local decision. 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No,I will fight for extra money for both AP classes and Algebra 1 tutoring. I expect you and me to pool our resources even if we disagree on the specifics and fight because we both want essentially the same thing, more money for education. I will not take from the more privileged and give to less, not in any economy and certainly not in a pandemic economy with a stimulus bill of 2 trillion. This is not a poor country, it never was so why isn't some of it used to improve education ? Why must we make compromises ?  I come from a country of poor people where education is the absolutely bottom line to pull people up, not  sports. I know the value of an education. I will push for more money for all, not take away from any. That is my perfect situation and I will push for education money and so should you, not try to take away money from anyone. It is a shame that if we must take money from AP classes for tutoring. Education should be a basic right in a developed country that prides itself on it's achievements. 

We are in for a severe economic crisis, and schools are already expected to cover much of it, including providing more nutritional and social work type help, in addition to spending a buttload of money on implementing new safety procedures.  I think your optimism about how much money will be available for all this is beyond impressive.

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I don't hide behind could/shoud/would. Words or semantics or the order you mentioned. The question was did you mention it and you did. I do not care in what order you mentioned be it would/should/could maybe. The possibility that a 16 year old "privileged" student should somehow go to college even unprepared because of some need in a pandemic economy is what I fundamentally oppose and it offends me because I come from a system like that. Reservation. The idea of it offends me. It does not jive with the idea of an America I came for. Your post was only a bit that set me of. It is a baggage I carry. Nothing personal. If I offended you, I apologize. 

Do you allow for the possibility that the ‘America you came for’ never really existed? That we’ve always made trade-offs when required? That we’re coming off years of unprecedented prosperity and growth for the highest wage earners and property owners/investors and that may not be sustainable?

[Paige]

9 minutes ago, TechWife said:

In the scenario we are discussing, the student do independent study and not busywork classes. Extracurricular activities also don’t exist. 

Learning & growing isn’t confined to the school - that’s what some of us have tried to point out. 
 

Yes, laws would need to be changed or exemptions granted. That is already going on in some areas for some things like minimum number of schooldays, classroom hours, etc., so this is not insurmountable. The discussion has been going on for quite a while in regards to what “appropriate “ means. In some school systems it means both developmental delays & LD students are educated at an appropriate level and that advanced students are educated at an appropriate level. Other systems don’t include advanced students in the mix of those who should get an advanced education on the premise that a student receiving a grade level education is already receiving an appropriate education  - at this point that is a state or local decision. 

I'm all for testing out, and I'd be happy to see laws changed that allow flexibility. I'm really not arguing for privileged kids to get bennies while disadvantaged kids get nothing. The question was- why do kids need high level courses, what's the harm? It isn't a harm free choice the way the system works now. 

I thought we were having a discussion about complex issues, where the harm is, how schools may best mitigate it for everyone, what the unintended consequences may be, etc, and not defending some position at the expense of another.

Gifted kids often come with mental health issues and ignoring their educational needs and telling them to just sit and twiddle their thumbs can cause harm that is hard to undo. You also have kids who need 4 math credits to graduate but they entered 9th grade taking Algebra 2. Where are they supposed to get their last credits if the system doesn't adapt quickly and there's no higher classes because we scaled down? It's pretty insulting to say a kid is just lazy because he doesn't want to spend all his free time teaching himself the next level class because he's already spending hours and hours in the classroom for a class he doesn't need and then at home completing the homework that's required to pass. Kids have more than one interest- yeah, some kids may want to do math all day for fun, but some kids want to do sports and arts too. Or sleep. 

But it doesn't apply to me at all since my kids are homeschooled- it's hypothetical. I'm still going to advocate for all the kids.

[TechWife]

36 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No,I will fight for extra money for both AP classes and Algebra 1 tutoring. I expect you and me to pool our resources even if we disagree on the specifics and fight because we both want essentially the same thing, more money for education. I will not take from the more privileged and give to less, not in any economy and certainly not in a pandemic economy with a stimulus bill of 2 trillion. This is not a poor country, it never was so why isn't some of it used to improve education ? Why must we make compromises ?  I come from a country of poor people where education is the absolutely bottom line to pull people up, not  sports. I know the value of an education. I will push for more money for all, not take away from any. That is my perfect situation and I will push for education money and so should you, not try to take away money from anyone. It is a shame that if we must take money from AP classes for tutoring. Education should be a basic right in a developed country that prides itself on it's achievements. 

 

This isn’t a perfect situation. In a perfect world, everyone gets what they need and some of what they want. I would happily advocate for both. We don’t have a perfect world. Everyone hopefully will get what they need. Your kids don’t need AP exams to function in life. This is a point in time we very well may need to make significant compromises. Yes, this is a rich country. The money is there. As this thread has demonstrated, though, not everyone is willing to spend the money on education. Reduced class sizes were proposed as a way to lower risk and return to the classrooms. More room & teachers are needed for that and people , at least in this thread, see this as not being something affordable or feasible. Well, if we are still going to reduce class sizes, and we have the same number of classrooms and the same number of teachers, then something else has to give. So, what can free up some teachers? Decreasing the variety of elective courses offered so that more class sections of courses required for graduation can be taught. This may not free up space necessarily, but it has the potential to decrease class sizes for the required courses in that a teacher that previously taught four classes of Algebra I and one class of AP Calculus can now teach five classes of Algebra I in a safer environment because the same number of Algebra I students are spread out over five sections and there are fewer people in the room. If all math teachers give up their AP class time, then the same number of students is spread out even further, reducing risk even more. These, this means that some students will not be able to complete college level courses while they are in high school, but it does mean that all students, including advanced students,  will have the opportunity to meet the requirements for a high school diploma. Those that want to and are able can go on to university and take their college level courses there. 
 

I am actually a healthcare advocate, by passion and by certification. Right now, for health reasons, we must decrease physical proximity. If we want to reopen schools, we need to figure out how to do that and lower the risk for spreading a serious disease in that environment.. Therefore, I will advocate for any number of educational solutions that will help meet health goals. Children who are sick or have sick family members often aren’t able to get an education all for periods of time that vary widely. Health has to come first. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by TechWife

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No, the America in my head was never the streets paved in gold and over flowing with milk and honey. I came here basically for an education because higher education and research is still something here. I come from a system where people do not really know concepts, but memorize them. My child knows concepts even at 13. I went to an average, private school. I never knew what the heck sentence diagramming was. I was used to studying and working really hard, going to coaching classes, memorizing and basically regurgitating stuff. I got really high marks but concepts wise, terrible. I was dazzled by the education system here especially at higher levels. That is what made me stay. 

ETA: I value education more than money. If people inherit money without a work ethic they tend to squander it as many celebs do. The biggest value I will pass on to my child is an education. 

That kind of education has only ever been available to a small subset of Americans. It was never universal. Drill/kill and memorization is a mainstay here too. It’s why anytime I mention Primary Mathematics or Beast Academy in many other spaces I get crickets. Small, wealthy enclaves don’t define national norms, especially not in emergency conditions.

[Frances]

53 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

apples to oranges.  I did the same path, but I burned a lot of midnight oil overcoming my high school deficiencies the first year -- how to write a paper,  pretty much all of high school chemistry  and physics and half of earth science..  Needless to say, that meant the ecs needed to do well to get LoRs were quite challenging to find time for since I had work study hours too. And if you do look at those students who are currently admitted to Ivies from these poorer schools...the picture is not pretty.  Same for nursing and engineering at state U.....too much missing high school content to overcome to get the gpa needed to keep the scholarships. There is a reason that demand for the NYC exam high schools is so large...many, many capable students are underserved academically, and that's preventing them from being able to afford the makeup courses that have to done on their own dime in order to get into serious college majors.  I personally don't want to see the professions restricted to the wealthy.

I guess my small, rural high school with no honors or AP classes must have done fairly well providing a basic college prep education. Of course we all found college harder, but definitely felt prepared. I forgot there were also classmates that went to the state engineering school and did just fine. While it may be true that in some places not having honors or AP classes means students are not prepared for college, it is not universally true. I’m guessing NY state has just about the widest disparity possible in the education it provides in its public high schools. You have the super elite magnet high schools in NY city and then the districts like yours and everything in between.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Frances

[TechWife]

3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I am fundamentally opposed to making any short term plans in a system in the name of "reform" especially when it is a feeder system for kids going to college. Don't mess with it. It is flawed but it works. This pandemic has an end though it seems eternal now. But it has an end, but the school system should not be messed with right now. This is a sacred cow for me. Even in a pandemic situation, countries with a heavy emphasis on college like China and India in highly competitive environments do not mess with this feeder system. They postpone it. Call  it what you will, if anyone tries to mess with it, I will be the masked lady leading the protests from my car loudly honking even in this economy when I am a big fan of social distancing. 

 

If we don't make any changes in the short or intermediate term, then how does our existing system survive? This is not China or India. Neither our public health or education system is set up the way that theirs are and we have vastly different laws. What those countries do, the US is incapable of doing. While it is a fact that the purpose of the public school system isn't childcare, it is also a fact that most people who have kids in public school systems work. If the schools are closed, the workplace is disrupted. If the workplace is disrupted, then there is financial fallout. When there is financial fallout, funding for things like education decreases. We can either be proactive and look for ways to mitigate the damage to education system or not.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Honestly I do not care about it. We made specific choices and pay for a school system in our taxes that provides some of that. We scaffold a lot of that too. We are not rich, we are a one income family with me taking occasional jobs. We make sacrifices for that exact type of education with the caveat that we scaffold a lot and we are very involved. For me, college is not an after thought, it will be something we work towards and a post graduate, even a professional degree. My parents saved and sacrificed for something like that . I come from a country where without a college degree not much of career is open to you. My parents brought us up like that. In my opinion, America is becoming that way. So we will work towards that unless my kids have other ambitions in which case we will not force them. We will always plan for a backup, but when our children are launched, they will leave with a college degree paid for by the parents unless they decide otherwise. 

It is certainly fine to feel that way. It’s entirely unrealistic to think the rest of the states’ citizens, or even your neighbors, (most districts are funded primarily by state tax revenues) will share your priorities WRT AP at all costs. I think students impacted by this will still have all of those opportunities just on a slightly different timetable.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

We do not have state tax in my state. Schools are primarily paid for by property taxes and pretty much all my neighbors feel this way because we chose our school district as one of the primary reasons of buying there. All are heavily invested in kids education  and this includes all ethnicities as we live in a very diverse neighborhood. 

There’s no equalization money/redistribution or maximum levy? That surprises me. Most states have been sued under state constitutions to provide additional aid to areas with smaller tax bases.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Sneezyone

[BlsdMama]

In other news...

We were up almost 400 cases today in Iowa.  261 of those were positives from testing two meat packing plants.  They are calling for closures at both. 

So, what happens when this happens, because so many processors closed in favor of the larger plants (Tyson & National Beef) that there isn't much of anywhere for these hogs to go.  Which means, because we're mostly temp controlled closed building producers now, the farmer can't receive his new contracted group of babies.  They're not accustomed to being out of temperature controlled environments so now they are killed and the farmer is out his shipment.  How this happens is in a co-op, each farmer will own a share.  Few own their own boars and sows now, instead the centeral farm will handle the breeding.  Each farmer with a share will receive his share of pigs.  If he can't receive, they must still move onto the next guy.  It has long term impact because his "turn" won't come around again for six months.  It's like dominos.   Beef is in a better scenario.  Many keep lots, but have more area if needed and beef have a longer window.  I'd assume chicken processors are in the same boat as hogs.

[TechWife]

Just now, Dreamergal said:

The US is the country where education for all is at least a basic concept. In India and China, the parents pay for and scaffold your education, especially college prep. English opens doors. I am all for proactive ways, just not in ways my kid suffers or a change in a system that makes other kids who are more "prepared' suffer.

Yes. But, in China and India they can mandate that people stay home to mitigate the spread of disease. At least in China, the infrastructure exists for adequate testing and medical care to mitigate the spread of disease, as does the infrastructure to deliver food to the doorstep of their citizens so that they don't have to leave their houses. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that people didn't loose jobs during their shutdown, either, but I'm not sure about that. All of these things mean that they can support recovery on a shorter timetable and resume their educational pipeline. That is not the case here.

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I am not educated enough about the public school system in general or community college to make any coherent argument, I just know my ISD and my kid's school. But if I get the gist of the argument we should try to reform the school system during the pandemic crisis because of emergency distance education being inadequate and kids who do well should somehow sacrifice "for the greater good" ?

Well, the greatest good anyone can do right now is just stay put.

But many many many many families can't just stay put, in the longer term. They have to work. So who stays home and helps the 7 and 8 yr olds with distance education? It's not possible. 

Hence trying to figure out how to reduce class sizes to safe levels. Which may mean teachers that previous taught AP now are teaching lower level classes. 

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

No,I will fight for extra money for both AP classes and Algebra 1 tutoring. I expect you and me to pool our resources even if we disagree on the specifics and fight because we both want essentially the same thing, more money for education. I will not take from the more privileged and give to less, not in any economy and certainly not in a pandemic economy with a stimulus bill of 2 trillion. This is not a poor country, it never was so why isn't some of it used to improve education ? Why must we make compromises ? 

Because we are facing a worldwide pandemic?!?!?!?

[TechWife]

6 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The US is the country where education for all is at least a basic concept. In India and China, the parents pay for and scaffold your education, especially college prep. English opens doors. I am all for proactive ways, just not in ways my kid suffers or a change in a system that makes other kids who are more "prepared' suffer.

Wait, what? You think kids who are more "prepared" shouldn't suffer? That's not how life works. I think you have an unusual definition of suffering.

Suffering is not being able to get a basic education, basic heath care, being critically ill, losing your parents or other loved ones, not having a place to live, not having enough food to eat or clothes to wear. Suffering is having no one that loves you or cares about you. I come from an immigrant family too. I have great aunts who starved to death in their home country. It would  never occur to me that not having access to an AP course is suffering.

 

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

Well, they hit people and they take away their privacy. This references lathi charges in India and the green QR safe code in China. Unless you want that here we have to make our choices. 

Yes, and I just might choose that your kids don't get AP whatever classes so that they and others don't get sick and so that others can meet minimum graduation requirements. That's what it means to live in the US.

 

[TechWife]

5 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No.Because it is not my job to pay for the best education for the children of the state. What I earn will pay for the best for my kids. No apologies. The state should find the money. This is a wealthy country. 

Where do you think the state gets it's money?

 

[TechWife]

Just now, Dreamergal said:

We all have our priorities.  For me it is, an AP course is important. College is important as it will help them in the future. So I will scaffold. 

Education was much more important to me before my son landed in PICU on life support his junior year in high school. I realized how foolish I was. Now, I am happy he is alive. He is not able to go to college and will probably never live independently, but I treasure every single day I have with him.

Guess what? He is still a voracious reader and researches every single topic he is interested in. He has never stopped learning. But, his education, formal or informal, will not make it possible for him to hold down a job. That's the way life is.

[TechWife]

Just now, Dreamergal said:

From the lottery. People who play the lottery can pay extra. 

Not all state have a lottery and many people consider them to be unethical.

My state has an education lottery. As soon as it went into effect, they lowered the amount of tax money the state was providing for the school system, but the lottery money doesn't make up for the short fall.

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No.Because it is not my job to pay for the best education for the children of the state. What I earn will pay for the best for my kids. No apologies. The state should find the money. This is a wealthy country. 

And you claim you came here for American values???

I get mine, screw all the other kids? 

How is what you describe (those who can afford higher taxes getting a better education for their kids than those that cant) different than a country where parents who can pay for private school do, and those that can't get crappy education? 

As for the state should find the money - um - that's called taxes. The thing people just asked you about paying for and you said no. 

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Nope, not where I live. I've never felt that way. 

Doesn't matter how you feel. Your state gets federal education $$, so yes, I can affect the way that your kids receive education if I and other like-minded people (some of whom might even be in your state) put our minds to it.

[brehon]

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

I don't hide behind could/shoud/would. Words or semantics or the order you mentioned. The question was did you mention it and you did. I do not care in what order you mentioned be it would/should/could maybe. The possibility that a 16 year old "privileged" student should somehow go to college even unprepared because of some need in a pandemic economy is what I fundamentally oppose and it offends me because I come from a system like that. Reservation. The idea of it offends me. It does not jive with the idea of an America I came for. Your post was only a bit that set me of. It is a baggage I carry. Nothing personal. If I offended you, I apologize. 

First, bolt’s not American.

I gotta ask — what in the hell are you even saying here? You don’t recognize a difference between should and could? Between might and will? I am seriously confused. 

Bolt was mentioning possibilities, ONE of which MIGHT be early college for prepared   students. Early college MIGHT involve “going away” or it MIGHT involve attending a local university. Mentioning ONE possibility among several options is a good thing.

So, you’re right; bolt did say that SOME 16 year olds MIGHT be ready for college. Who cares? I think perhaps your formative years in your native country may have blinded you to some rather harsh realities in America. Realities, by the way, that have existed for generations of children. This pandemic has exposed and exacerbated the issues, but make no mistake; it did not cause them. 

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I am sorry about your son. I do not know what the future holds for my kids, but I know education was a game changer for me. It opened unimaginable doors for me. So I value it very much. We will support our children with whatever their choices, but that does not mean we will not have a plan for their education which includes college. My children need not have a college degree for my husband or I to value them, but that does not mean we will not plan for it and prepare for it.

Your kids can be prepared for a college education without AP whatever classes.

[bolt.]

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

I don't hide behind could/shoud/would. Words or semantics or the order you mentioned. The question was did you mention it and you did. I do not care in what order you mentioned be it would/should/could maybe. The possibility that a 16 year old "privileged" student should somehow go to college even unprepared because of some need in a pandemic economy is what I fundamentally oppose and it offends me because I come from a system like that. Reservation. The idea of it offends me. It does not jive with the idea of an America I came for. Your post was only a bit that set me of. It is a baggage I carry. Nothing personal. If I offended you, I apologize. 

My suggestion is that early college *could* be *one* *possibility* for some students who are suited to it.

I don't like that you are confusing my clearly conditional statements with some other ideas that you are pulling from thin air. I'm not hiding anything behind my words. I'm using my words to accurately share ideas that I actually hold.

Here it is: it would be nice, if a student was struggling to fill a year with valuable learning due to this crisis specifically because they had advanced beyond ordinary high school content, if they could be considered by a college, if all the other factors lined up, and it was a good fit that didn't cause hardship. For *some* students, early college could be a better option than high school boredom or a gap year. For *other* students, high school boredom or a gap year could be a better option. Of course, none of those 3 options is better than an excellent AP high school course... I'm only brainstorming because I'm concerned that an excellent AP high school course might be unavailable for quite a while.

I do *not* hold the idea that unprepared students "should" go to college at any age, for any reason. If you oppose that idea, if you are offended by it, I certainly hope you stop quoting me about it. I hope "your" America lives up to your ideals, even though a global natural disaster. That would be really great, and my ideals are with you. But if we can't have these ideal things (and it very much looks like we can't) I think your baggage might need some sorting. We can't have things that don't exist.

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Why the hell should I  apologize. This is the way the system works here. My parents paid for private school in my native country to give me the best opportunity, we live in the best school district we can afford to give our kids the best. Take it up with the people who designed it. I should apologize for what ? For wanting the best for my kids by whatever legal means necessaryy ? Will you ? Will anyone on this homeschool board. then I will. 

You want what you think is the best for your children at the expense of other children having what is the minimum legally required education. No, that is not the way the system works here. You can afford what you think is the best because other people in your community help you pay for it.

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No, where did I say I came here for American values. I come from a dog eat dog highly competitive environment, I was never altruistic. I came here for a higher  education because the system was great. I paid my way and I expect to pay for my kids. If I have to pay for it through my taxes, they can, not in a state where we pay for schools through our property taxes.

You said you came here expecting a certain thing, and that this wasn't living up to it. I guess that is because what you came for is NOT what is considered traditional American values. You may have come to the wrong place if you expect everyone to get on board with your "I get mine, screw everyone else" attitude. Not saying there are not Americans like that, there are more than I care for. But that isn't what this country is supposed to be about. And it CERTAINLY isn't what public schools are supposed to be about! That's what private schools are for. 

 

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The best for my kids and screw all the rest? Yes, you should apologize for that attitude. The system is designed to work that way but there is more collective action there than you realize. I'll give you the grace of perhaps not understanding American society well enough to understand how it works. 

Why are local taxes deductible? That could be debated forever but there is an idea of the general good of a public school system. 

Yes - the very idea embedded in the constitution - the "general welfare" of the people. Even though that isn't way she came here, she certainly benefits from it.

[brehon]

7 minutes ago, bolt. said:

My suggestion is that early college *could* be *one* *possibility* for some students who are suited to it.

I don't like that you are confusing my clearly conditional statements with some other ideas that you are pulling from thin air. I'm not hiding anything behind my words. I'm using my words to accurately share ideas that I actually hold.

Here it is: it would be nice, if a student was struggling to fill a year with valuable learning due to this crisis specifically because they had advanced beyond ordinary high school content, if they could be considered by a college, if all the other factors lined up, and it was a good fit that didn't cause hardship. For *some* students, early college could be a better option than high school boredom or a gap year. For *other* students, high school boredom or a gap year could be a better option. Of course, none of those 3 options is better than an excellent AP high school course... I'm only brainstorming because I'm concerned that an excellent AP high school course might be unavailable for quite a while.

I do *not* hold the idea that unprepared students "should" go to college at any age, for any reason. If you oppose that idea, if you are offended by it, I certainly hope you stop quoting me about it. I hope "your" America lives up to your ideals, even though a global natural disaster. That would be really great, and my ideals are with you. But if we can't have these ideal things (and it very much looks like we can't) I think your baggage might need some sorting. We can't have things that don't exist.

“Her” America has only EVER existed in wealthy and upper middle class enclaves. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Why do you any of you homeschool ? The general you, not the specific you.  Why not send your kid to the private school or public ? Because you think you can do the best you can for your kid in the best system you can afford. You don't have to tell me you made sacrifices for that in time, money, dreams, lifestyle. We all do. Why must I only be singled out for wanting the best public school for my child ? Where is the "greater good" in homeschooling ? We all make choices that are inherently selfish for our kids not for the greater good. I will accept that and will not apologize. 

But we still agree with paying for public schools, for other students, with our taxes! We are not saying, sorry, go find money elsewhere. 

I home educate because it fits my family, and I'm lucky to be able to do that. But I also care about the families who can't do that, and for the good of society, not to mention my personal goal to not be a jerk, I want good schools for everyone, regardless of income. 

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Why do you any of you homeschool ? The general you, not the specific you.  Why not send your kid to the private school or public ? Because you think you can do the best you can for your kid in the best system you can afford. You don't have to tell me you made sacrifices for that in time, money, dreams, lifestyle. We all do. Why must I only be singled out for wanting the best public school for my child ? Where is the "greater good" in homeschooling ? We all make choices that are inherently selfish for our kids not for the greater good. I will accept that and will not apologize. 

Lets see. I homeschooled because my son was not eligible to go to private schools because of some learning issues but he didn't qualify for an IEP in a public school. Yes, I did what was best for him. However, my best for him didn't keep anyone else from getting an education for their child. I paid all of my taxes, some of which went to public schools. In the homeschool community, I taught co-op classes, donated supplies to families, both public school and private school and shared some child care.

[Clemsondana]

5 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Why do you any of you homeschool ? The general you, not the specific you.  Why not send your kid to the private school or public ? Because you think you can do the best you can for your kid in the best system you can afford. You don't have to tell me you made sacrifices for that in time, money, dreams, lifestyle. We all do. Why must I only be singled out for wanting the best public school for my child ? Where is the "greater good" in homeschooling ? We all make choices that are inherently selfish for our kids not for the greater good. I will accept that and will not apologize. 

I don't always live up to my own ideals, but part of why I homeschool my kids is so that I can help them learn in a way that isn't 'learning for the sake of a grade', but learning to be able to use it to do useful things.  I'm not anti-competition - my kids do competitive sports and science competitions - but I've been able to incorporate more of 'how could we use that' or 'how does that apply today' than they would have gotten in a standard classroom.  Of course I want to give my kids a good education, but freeing up our time was also important.  I did not want to be in a position where I turned down the opportunity to do something useful because we were on somebody else's schedule.  For 6 years we have gone for an hour each week to help with homework at an afterschool program for at-risk kids.  I feel like we've done some good, but there is so much need...before this chaos happened, I was actually planning to talk to the program director about the possibility of doing some sort of game based math boot camp because there are kids in danger of finishing elementary school without being comfortable with arithmetic.  Many of the homeschool moms that I know appreciate having the flexibility to do volunteer work that would otherwise be crowded out by rigid schedules.  

[Scarlett]

40 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Education was much more important to me before my son landed in PICU on life support his junior year in high school. I realized how foolish I was. Now, I am happy he is alive. He is not able to go to college and will probably never live independently, but I treasure every single day I have with him.

Guess what? He is still a voracious reader and researches every single topic he is interested in. He has never stopped learning. But, his education, formal or informal, will not make it possible for him to hold down a job. That's the way life is.

Yep.  Happiness on earth isn’t just for high achievers. 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

My daughter isn't in high school so I haven't thought much about AP classes. What's the difference between an AP class and a college class? I've seen discussions on this board about AP classes and know that posters don't see much value in them. 

Are AP classes essential? IDK. 

 

No, they are definitely not essential, and the idea that a gifted student can't get an adequate or appropriate education without AP classes is absurd. My son never took a single AP class, yet he has a full ride scholarship to a school that is top-ranked for his major, and his other choices included an Ivy and other selective private schools. He is better prepared than many of his classmates who took tons of APs in high school — I see posts on the university parents FB page all the time complaining that their kids were straight-A students in HS, with lots of APs, and now they're calling home in tears about how difficult their college classes are. Meanwhile, DS was able to jump into 300 & 400 level courses in his major from day 1, and he has a 3.95 GPA as a sophomore. There are plenty of other WTM boardies whose kids who never took APs and are excelling in college as well. 

I never took APs in high school either, and I got 90% of my real education through my own reading and research. I graduated at 16, went to college on a full ride, and then off to a top grad school on a full fellowship. IMHO any gifted students who would complain about being stuck in a "boring" nonAP class, while doing nothing to educate themselves beyond that, need to get off their butts and show some initiative instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

AP classes cover more material and assign more work, but those quantitative differences don't necessarily mean they are qualitatively better — a lot of people complain about them being "a mile wide and an inch deep." In my experience, that's exactly the kind of thing that drives truly gifted kids nuts — plowing through material quickly, lots of busy work, no time for rabbit trails or pursuing interesting side topics, because we have to "stick to the schedule" since there's so much material to be crammed in before the Big Test. That is the absolute antithesis of why I homeschool to begin with, so I'm not going to throw that philosophy out the window the minute my kid hits 10th grade.

There seem to be a lot of kids at DS's university who regret accepting college credit for their AP scores, because they end up floundering in the next level class and realize too late that their AP class was really not the same level as the college class. I'm sure there's a wide spectrum, with some truly gifted AP teachers at one end and some badly-taught, low-level intro college classes at the other, but in general I'm not a fan of AP classes, and certainly don't consider them necessary or essential. I think the main advantage of AP is the boost in GPA (which you can also get from DE college classes) and a higher class rank (which is totally irrelevant to homeschoolers).

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 I am not standing protesting saying I will not pay my taxes. I pay my fair share. If I did not want to pay taxes,I would have gone to the middle east, not America. We all do whatever we can to help. But we put our kids first. 

You were specifically asked if you would support paying taxes so all kids in your state get a better education, rather than just your school district. you said no. You'd rather your money go to the kids in your district, and the rest of the kids in the state, oh well if they don't have enough property tax money. Not your problem. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

No, they are definitely not essential, and the idea that a gifted student can't get an adequate or appropriate education without AP classes is absurd. My son never took a single AP class, yet he has a full ride scholarship to a school that is top-ranked for his major, and his other choices included an Ivy and other selective private schools. He is better prepared than many of his classmates who took tons of APs in high school — I see posts on the university parents FB page all the time complaining that their kids were straight-A students in HS, with lots of APs, and now they're calling home in tears about how difficult their college classes are. Meanwhile, DS was able to jump into 300 & 400 level courses in his major from day 1, and he has a 3.95 GPA as a sophomore. There are plenty of other WTM boardies whose kids who never took APs and are excelling in college as well. 

I never took APs in high school either, and I got 90% of my real education through my own reading and research. I graduated at 16, went to college on a full ride, and then off to a top grad school on a full fellowship. IMHO any gifted students who would complain about being stuck in a "boring" nonAP class, while doing nothing to educate themselves beyond that, need to get off their butts and show some initiative instead of expecting to be spoon fed.

AP classes cover more material and assign more work, but those quantitative differences don't necessarily mean they are qualitatively better — a lot of people complain about them being "a mile wide and an inch deep." In my experience, that's exactly the kind of thing that drives truly gifted kids nuts — plowing through material quickly, lots of busy work, no time for rabbit trails or pursuing interesting side topics, because we have to "stick to the schedule" since there's so much material to be crammed in before the Big Test. That is the absolute antithesis of why I homeschool to begin with, so I'm not going to throw that philosophy out the window the minute my kid hits 10th grade.

There seem to be a lot of kids at DS's university who regret accepting college credit for their AP scores, because they end up floundering in the next level class and realize too late that their AP class was really not the same level as the college class. I'm sure there's a wide spectrum, with some truly gifted AP teachers at one end and some badly-taught, low-level intro college classes at the other, but in general I'm not a fan of AP classes, and certainly don't consider them necessary or essential. I think the main advantage of AP is the boost in GPA (which you can also get from DE college classes) and a higher class rank (which is totally irrelevant to homeschoolers).

WELL SAID. While I support my DDs desire to continue at our local high school we have made a conscious choice to pick and choose what works for her/us (which I also recognize is a privilege...we have tons of options). Having a cookie cutter/box checking experience isn’t what we’re interested in. Quite frankly, I think it also seriously misunderstands what a lot of top colleges are increasingly looking for in their admissions too. I suspect kids who use this time to make whatever fruit concoctions, art, music, income...out of these lemons will be VERY attractive later on.

[Frances]

39 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Why do you any of you homeschool ? The general you, not the specific you.  Why not send your kid to the private school or public ? Because you think you can do the best you can for your kid in the best system you can afford. You don't have to tell me you made sacrifices for that in time, money, dreams, lifestyle. We all do. Why must I only be singled out for wanting the best public school for my child ? Where is the "greater good" in homeschooling ? We all make choices that are inherently selfish for our kids not for the greater good. I will accept that and will not apologize. 

I homeschooled because it was the best fit for my son. but I also happily paid high state income taxes and property taxes so that all children in my state would hopefully receive a good education. My husband and I also both volunteered in our local public schools.

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No I do not understand the American system. I am going to be blunt, what I see is a system that is seemingly set up to fair but inherently not. Money is always the game changer like every system in the world. My parents had to pay a school, I pay taxes. The "general good" never existed. If not why are there kids who get the only proper meal in a school ?Why are there kids who are shamed because they have lunch balance. My native country free food. It is called mid-day meal scheme in a government school. It is available for all poor kids. Poor kids suffer in America, the system is not fair. So why pretend. 

But you also don’t want it to be fair, unless I’m misunderstanding your statements. In my state, the majority if school funding comes from the state general fund, not property taxes. And poorer districts or those with lots of English language learners or special education students actually get more money. does inequity still exist? of course. but at least we are trying to do the best by all children, not just those whose parents can afford to live in the best districts and pay the highest property taxes.

[TechWife]

40 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Absolutely. I want good schools period. I come from a country where female education often takes a back seat because they come from traditional families. I have friends whose story it was, married at 18, even though they were good students. So yes, education is a game changer. I agree, but don't rob Peter to pay Paul. Reform the system.

But you have said that this is not the time to reform the system, that you want it to be suspended until it can resume in same format. You can't have it both ways. You either have to be willing to change the system or want it to stay the same. When things change, sometimes we don't get the same things we had before. Different isn't always bad, it's just different. It isn't bad for your kids not to get AP courses. It is bad if your kids don't get the education they need to get a high school diploma. Suspending the system indefinitely might mean that your kids won't get a high school diploma in a timely fashion. Other school systems that adapt, innovate, and yes, reform, will have students that do. How will that help your kids get a college education?

[Corraleno]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 I answered based on an actual situation which is my reality. A real choice we made because we pay certain taxes to go to a certain kind of school. If you want to expand on my answer as long as my kid gets the same kind of school we have right now, I am ok with increasing taxes to pay for better for all, across the board.  I am not opposed to paying extra taxes for good education for all. But it must have a high standard. I am not for cutting AP classes or anything. I'll pay extra taxes for AP class for all if that's what it takes. I am opposed to cut AP classes for more money in funding for Algebra 1.  

How old are your kids? I'm curious where you got this idea that AP classes are the be-all and end-all of a college prep education. Because they most decidedly are not. In fact, many of the top private schools in the country are dropping AP classes in favor of more interesting and unusual courses covering topics in more depth than the very restricted AP rubrics allow — which is also what many of the homeschoolers on this board do for high school. One of the primary reasons I homeschool is so my kids will get a better education than they would get in standard AP classes. 

Maybe you should stop and think for a minute that your kid with all his/her APs is going to be competing against homeschoolers and private schoolers whose transcripts are going to look much more interesting and appealing to colleges than a list of the same APs every other student has...

Edited April 20, 2020 by Corraleno

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

My kids are 13 and 4. The circles I move in are obsessed with APs.So I think college I think AP. 😊 We are building a diverse, well trying to build a solid transcript because we know the competition. We unfortunately over scheduled my poor son. We are pulling back now because he seems a lot happier. So we will rethink a lot about extra curriculars. 

I think this is a classic case of trying to fight the last war. Having consistent long term passions that demonstrate the same deep knowledge and capacity for growth/social contribution are, I think, a lot more appealing. That’s not to say that I’m anti-AP/DE but that chasing every last one like you need to fill up your bingo card creates the same bingo card that everyone else has.

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

yes, in my not so brilliant mind a pandemic is not time to reform.  Any reform. Because it is a band aid. You want to start with reform, let's talk about the people who supply food to the schools and are throwing it out. How about getting it to food banks or hungry kids in the school system and paying those people. can we ? if we cannot do that short term how the heck can we reform a school system which is not uniform across states. We can't even agree on SIP for all states in the same format, how the heck can we agree on reform ? This year is toast for kids, all kids around the world. It is a crock full of shit. This whole thing sucks major. All our kids are affected, yours, mine, china, India, UK, all around the world. So I will not attempt change now. I will wait for stable times. It is like building on shifting sands. Not sound. So why the hell would I say reform schools now. Does not mean I say do not reform schools ever. 

When things are stable, people become satisfied and don't want to rock the boat. Reform/change is probably resisted even more in good times than when times are bad. Times were bad for African Americans in the Southern part of the US until the Civil War forced reform. Things had to change. Things were bad during the industrial revolution - workplace injury, child labor - changed was forced because people started speaking up for themselves, going on strike, losing their jobs, their homes, getting killed, run out of town, causing short term turmoil for long term gain. Things were bad during the Jim Crow years - just ask people in Wilmington NC, the site of the only coup in the US. Things were bad for black Americans before the Civil rights movement (still are in a lot of ways),  and the Civil Rights movement temporarily caused even more pain to that community while they worked and sweated, risked their lives, were shot at, had their homes & churches burned and some even lost their lives for the sake of affecting change. The later sixties/early seventies had civil unrest related to the Vietnam War - people were shot for standing up for what they thought was right - but eventually we got out of that war because they made people listen and act.

Good changes come out of bad situations all the time - even when attempting the change causes additional pain. The thing is - when people tried to make those changes, they had no idea if they would work. They didn't know they would definitely be able to end slavery, have equal rights, stop a war - but they tried anyway.

Making changes in a school system, changes that not only aren't going to kill anyone, but will prevent illness and death, should be a piece of cake.

[Pam in CT]

This thread is veering rather far from its "should states re-open and how" origins... but...

(whispering)  AP classes don't equal "quality" instruction.  

AP's non-profit status is the thinnest of cloaks; it is a massive money-making machine whose interest is to perpetuate its own influence; the top-most tier of colleges and universities have *never* granted true credit for AP coursework, only standing to skip core requirements and/or to start subjects such as languages at advanced levels.

And the strongest teachers don't like them either, because the whole year's instruction amounts to teaching to the test. Which makes curricular planning a cakewalk, but impedes responsiveness to anything current, be it scientific journal articles, or current events, or literature.

Many of the top tier boarding schools and private secondary schools on the East Coast have dropped them entirely.  Kids are welcome to take the tests if they want, but the schools want to retain control over curriculum rather than cede it to College Board.

My youngest is a junior in a highly regarded boarding school that hasn't offered AP classes in anything but languages (because placement) for years. Now that she's studying online, she and many of her classmates are planning to TAKE several APs (which will be offered online, open book, this time). Because if you're a basically self-motivated kid, and all the AP instruction amounts to is cramming the test material, you can just as well do it online as IRL.

[TechWife]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

My kids are 13 and 4. The circles I move in are obsessed with APs.So I think college I think AP. 😊 We are building a diverse, well trying to build a solid transcript because we know the competition. We unfortunately over scheduled my poor son. We are pulling back now because he seems a lot happier. So we will rethink a lot about extra curriculars. 

Why not rethink those AP classes? Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean it's the right thing for your son.

[TechWife]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

That is one more reason I am on this board. Because your kids seem to have diverse portfolios and I want my kid to have one too. I lurk a lot on the college board and do not contribute because I do not know. 

That's great. I recommend you also spend time on the high school board, of which the college board is a sub-board. The high school board is where you will find ideas for high school curricula, courses, and learn about other ways for your students to earn credits. Some of the folks there have wonderful ideas on a diverse range of courses that go far beyond the traditional offerings.

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

My kids are 13 and 4. The circles I move in are obsessed with APs.So I think college I think AP. 😊 We are building a diverse, well trying to build a solid transcript because we know the competition. We unfortunately over scheduled my poor son. We are pulling back now because he seems a lot happier. So we will rethink a lot about extra curriculars. 

The people in your circle are misguided. They are caught up in a ridiculous arms race where kids end up taking more and more APs, trying to out-compete the next kid and get a higher rank, in the hope that the more APs they take, the better their chances of admission to top schools. There are no winners in that race. Even if parents don't care about totally burning their kids out, even if the kids themselves are willing to accept that level of stress and burn-out, it's totally counter-productive because it leaves no time for kids to pursue the individual interests and passions that actually do make them stand out to colleges. Every spring the College Confidential forum is full of anguished posts from seniors who worked themselves to the bone in HS and did not get into the colleges they wanted and feel like "all that hard work was for nothing." And there are angry posts from parents about how their kid had 10 APs and a 4.5 GPA and didn't get into Highly Selective University while the kid down the street, with fewer APs and a lower GPA did, and that's just totally unfair. They don't stop to think that maybe that kid down the street was more appealing to colleges precisely because he seemed to have a more balanced life, and more interesting hobbies, and a more compelling essay, instead of just 2 more APs than the next kid.