Do you think states should open back up?

[mommyoffive]

Do you think states should open back up? 

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? 

What do you think should open back up? 

What do you think should stay closed? 

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?

Has your state peaked yet? 

What state are you in? 

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? 

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? 

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? 

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? 

[Lecka]

I know the projections change, but even though my county seems fine, we are 80 miles from a city that has projections saying if they open up before the end of summer things will get really bad.  I think our county will follow that city for practical reasons.  
 

I hope the projections will get better!  But apparently there are just too many cases in that city and even with social distancing there are enough new cases for the projections to seem poor.

But maybe two weeks from now the numbers will look better and the projections will change.  

Maybe more testing will help also. 

I am afraid we will be a later place 😞
 

Edit:  I am in upstate New York near Syracuse.

This projection was in the Syracuse paper and apparently it’s what the city is looking at right now.  But I think it said they will keep running projections.  
 

And then I don’t know about the state level here.  I know we wouldn’t open before the state, but if they open by county I think we will not be one of the first ones.  
 

Edit:  as of today, I think our state has peaked, but only if restrictions continue for now (and I am not aware of any timeline for the state, as I think they want to wait and see what the numbers are as time goes by). 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Lecka

[bolt.]

I'm not American. I'm in western Canada.

I think, based on local factors, places where outbreak is currently mild (defined as: hospitals and ICUs have plenty of space, medical professionals have all the PPE they need, if it surges, we can cope) can afford to "open" one of the most critical elements of the local economy. How well care facilities are doing also needs to be a factor. That's got to be figured out before anything gets opened.

I think it should based on the local medical status. Whole states are too large. More like city by city, or by rural areas / groups of towns.

I think it should be done after 14 to 21 days of successfully treating all cases, with hospital capacity to spare.

I think it should be the single largest feasible component of the economy. But just one. With big changes (whatever is needed) to enhance cleanliness, increase physical distancing, protect employees from each other's droplets, test well and frequently, and provide paid sick leave with strict policies about working only when well.

My province has not peaked yet, and our peak looks likely to be fairly flattend. There is probably a plan for opening eventually, but I don't know the specifics.

We are both working from home.

No cases in our circles. (To our knowledge -- plenty of mild colds etc.)

I will do as little as possible, probably maintaining my distance practices and staying home as I am now. Maybe less strictly as time goes on. Elderly and vulnerable folks -- and anyone who has close contact with them should stick to a strict distancing standard until treatments or vaccines are in place.

Edited April 13, 2020 by bolt.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Do you think states should open back up? No.

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? Depends on the information available at a later date.

What do you think should open back up? Now? Nothing

What do you think should stay closed? Now? Everything

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up? People should try to get smarter.

Has your state peaked yet? No.

What state are you in? PA.

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? Not yet.  It’s joining forces with other states to make sure they all make really good decisions.

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? Yes.

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? No, but friends have.

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? Stay home. My outside life isn’t important enough to accept the risks of killing people (via virus or lack of other emergency medical services.)

The virus doesn’t care what I want in any of those categories.

ETA: Though my family’s income may be impacted, I do have to point out that I’m in a very privileged position at the moment. I do believe we have to do more for those who are not.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Carrie12345

[Lecka]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/04/coronavirus-model-shows-dire-scenarios-in-cny-if-we-dont-stay-farther-apart-for-months.html%3foutputType=amp
 

This is the article about the projections in Syracuse.  It says they think there may have been spread since late January/early February.

 

[Lanny]

No. I don't think the states should open up as they believe is appropriate for them. If there were no interstate commerce and travel, and they were isolated, that might be OK, depending on what they permit or prohibit, but there are people going from state to state.

Here in Colombia the President suggested a couple of days ago, that he is contemplating extending the current restrictions for some time. The original "Shelter in Place" was originally supposed to end today (13 April) but a couple of weeks ago they extended that until 27 April.

I am praying that they reopen the airports here to International flights as scheduled on  01 May, because DD has a ticket to  come down here, in May for the Summer break from school.

This is all extremely complicated and nobody really knows exactly what they are doing, because they get updated information, every day so their decision making has to be based on that.  Some of the Governors seem to be doing a very good job and others (MI for  example) are wishy washy and that doesn't keep their citizens safe or healthy. Everything is Dynamic and "on the fly".

I am frustrated that I need to stay home until June 1st (I am over 70) but I am thankful for the steps the government here has taken to reduce the impact of Covid-19 in Colombia. As I write this, they are showing 109 deaths from Covid-19. Colombia has a population of approximately 50 million people. Thats 109      deaths too many IMO.  Most them are because of people who came here from Europe. Primarily from Spain.

[Wheres Toto]

I'm in NJ.  More than likely NY, NJ and CT are going to coordinate opening up.  Which makes sense because there's a lot of crossing of borders in this area for work, leisure, shopping and everything else.    I'm sure they are working on a plan but they aren't advertising it at this point.  

I don't think we should "open" anytime soon.   We are still on an upward trajectory for cases and deaths, we still aren't testing enough people, people are still doing what they want instead of following the orders.  

I don't think it makes sense to keep the entire country locked down until every state is ready to open.  Things are going to be hitting on a rolling basis.  I think this area will be mostly done before some other areas have even started.   Unfortunately that can cause problems especially if there is limited or no immunity once you get it.   I think even once we open, masks are going to be standard.  It would be good to limit large groups as well, but I don't know how you do that in a place like NYC where a good portion of the economy is based on large numbers of people. 

Dh's job hasn't been too affected yet.  He's working from home, they have work they are doing for clients that are large enough that they are continuing projects and plans.  My business is shut down until things open up.  I teach science classes to homeschoolers.   My groups are small so I could reopen even if there are restrictions on groups over 15 or 20 people.  But since it's kids doing hands-on activities, there's definitely risk involved.  We can manage being closed until September if we have to.  At that point, we will have to see how things are going.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Do you think states should open back up? 

For the most part, NO

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? 

State-by-state, using actual science, not clueless knit-wits. Also, phasing things in, absolutely not all at once.

What do you think should open back up? 

Only work that can be undertaken with social distancing followed at all times and with other protection in place, i.e., masks. 

What do you think should stay closed? 

Everything that cannot be done with distancing in place. All things that serve only the function of social/enjoyment, i.e., bars, casinos, movie theaters. 

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?

All workers must wear masks. All customers *should* wear masks unless it is impossible to do the task with a mask on, i.e., have your teeth cleaned. Shaking hands must be forbidden; nobody should shake hands in business, full stop. 

Has your state peaked yet? 

Most likely not

What state are you in? 

Maryland

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? 

Our governor (Hogan) wisely does not “put it an artificial timeline.” I would imagine, since he is not an idiot, he and his collaborators and trying to get a plan organized, but, also since he is not an idiot, he isn’t going to stupidly pin things to an arbitrary date based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? 

Yes. We are both directly and indirectly affected financially by COVID-19 measures. 

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? 

Not as far as I know. 

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? 

I will behave the same as I currently am no matter what the government permits or does not permit. I am a cautious person in any case and it possibly has never been more evident than it is now. I am currently not planning to attend the social things I usually attend for most likely a year or more. I may if the social thing is modified and I can wear a  mask, maintain distance, clean my hands. I can imagine, for example, doing some of my normal social activities (book club, for instance) if we can meet outside and sit at a distance from each other. 

I do not intend to travel, domestically nor internationally, until there is widespread use of a vaccine. 

 

[mommyoffive]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/white-house-task-force-still-weighing-different-benchmarks-for-reopening/ar-BB12zzEF?ocid=spartandhp

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/washington-oregon-california-announce-coronavirus-pact/ar-BB12zAmn?ocid=spartandhp

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cuomo-northeastern-governors-announce-coordinated-regional-effort-to-reopen-amid-coronavirus/ar-BB12zBmk?ocid=spartandhp

[historically accurate]

Quote

Do you think states should open back up? 

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? 

What do you think should open back up? 

What do you think should stay closed? 

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?

Has your state peaked yet? 

What state are you in? 

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? 

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? 

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? 

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? 

1. Eventually we will have to re-open. I think it's premature at this point as there does not seem to be any sort of testing/containment plan available yet. It'd be horrible to open it up and run the death toll back up after this pause.

2. State by state makes more sense as local hotspots flare up.

3. Local businesses that sell the same things the big box stores sell should be allowed to open in order to compete. I'm a huge fan of curbside pickup for them. But it doesn't make sense to let Walmart sell fabric but not the local quilting store. Or let Lowe's sell plants but not the local greenhouse. I am also a huge fan of watching and closing those things that become a problem.

4. Playgrounds (especially indoor playgrounds), schools, arenas, salons, spas, and gyms all spring to mind as hard to clean or enforce social distancing. However, I am very glad I do not have the power to make these decisions because I know a lot of people depend on their jobs at those sorts of places.

5. Modifications: masks for everyone. Curbside pickup only in some stores. Broadcasting religious services for those not able or willing to venture out. Protective measures for employees at all retail places. Social distancing for employees and customers (DH's work has gone to 7 1/2 hour shifts to not have overlap with shift change). 

6. I don't think my state has peaked yet overall. My area within my state has definitely not - we just had an infection noted in a senior care home less than a mile from my housetwo days ago, so today there were 2 employees positive.

7. Illinois - which makes it difficult with Chicago being such a hub

8. I know Governor Pritzger mentioned it today in the briefing, but I haven't gotten a chance to hear it yet. So I don't know what he is planning.

9. I do not work for money, so no change here. DH's work is currently ok. His company packages pharmaceuticals, and I know that they are dedicating a facility just to a drug that may help in Covid19, so it looks pretty stable. In fact, they are giving $100 weekly bonuses to employees who have to go into the building every day. He, however, is office support, so while his company is working a lot, his job may not be ok if they need to downsize.  

10. Not in our area (we have less than 100 cases in our area here); DH's cousin and his wife live in England and they assume that is what they had a few weeks ago. She was pretty sick and he had a horrendous cough, but neither was sick enough to be hospitalized, so no official testing. Friend of mine is currently sick in Paris with what appears to be Covid19. 

11. We will probably stay home as much as possible. I'd like to have kids restart TaeKwonDo, but I have serious reservations about working out in a group. They are having a horrible time with Zoom TKD, and the lack of it is really doing a number on one's mental health. I may have to take a kid or two out shopping because ordering online and then returning what doesn't fit costs so much more with shipping and the lag time in getting a refund puts a strain on the budget. But my plan is to hunker down for the most part.

[chiguirre]

38 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

No, I do not think my state (Texas) should open up. Our governor has a committee and will be releasing some kind of plan later this week.  What I hope the plan says is something like when the positive numbers are down to xxx level, these businesses will open back up with social distancing, masks, etc.  After a certain amount of time if the number is stable or lower, we will open up these businesses.  So forth and so on.   But in my mind, the numbers are not near low enough and are rising in many areas.  Releasing a plan with guidelines might help some people to know what the end game is that they are looking for and might help people be more patient for the lockdown.

I agree. I also think they should either allow each county to decide or divide the state into multi-country regions and treat each region separately. I do not want to see Houston forced to open early because Lubbock is getting antsy. 

I know someone personally whose FIL died and whose MIL was infected. They also live in my town.

Edited April 13, 2020 by chiguirre

[catz]

Things I think would help slowly bring us back once we get this initial surge under control.  

• More reliable and accessible testing
• Drive through testing and evaluation clinics (we don't have any here)
• Reliable antibody testing
• Plenty of PPE and well established covid-19 safety protocols for health care settings.  Separating covid patients from other patients.
• Constant screening of health care workers
• Employer provided safety training and equipment readily available.
• Airport screenings and required quarantine for travelers from hot spots.  Recommend limited travel.
• Models develop over time showing good trends that we will not overwhelm the healthcare system
• Significant quantities of back up PPE and vents
• Ability for workers to quarantine when necessary (paid sick leave, help for small business).  
• Rigorous contact tracing and required quarantines.  

I really think tourism season is shot whether or not stuff opens up.  We travel a ton, but my desire to spend money to travel over the next 12 months is ZERO.  Maybe road trips to isolated cabins in the woods and remote tenting might be trending if anything.  Glad I made 2 airplane trips last year.  

Anyway - I'm sure most of this is a pipe dream, but when we're still not back to normal many months and hand wringing about the economy which is sure to come we can all wonder why some of this wasn't pursued and laid out much sooner.   I am stunned at how slow response is going.

Our current stay at home orders were extended to May 4.  Our governor has a particular number of tests it would like to be able to run weekly with tracing in place before opening.  

[Pam in CT]

re coordination between state decision-making:

1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

I'm in NJ.  More than likely NY, NJ and CT are going to coordinate opening up.  Which makes sense because there's a lot of crossing of borders in this area for work, leisure, shopping and everything else.    I'm sure they are working on a plan but they aren't advertising it at this point.  

...

 

They just did:

I'm (obviously) in CT.  Our new cases have tamped down, but everyone (not just the medical sector, everyone) understands that is BECAUSE of the curtailment of people's movement, and does not mean we've "peaked" in the sense that we are ready to re-open.  Most school districts have closed through the end of the year.

 

I don't believe there should be government support (federal or state) for re-opening until there is

1. A substantially better evidence-based handle on how long immunity lasts; 
2. A widely available (both logistically, and free or very low cost) immunity test is developed and deployed; and
   1. There are as-yet-undeveloped procedures in place to ensure workers in essential sectors have immunity.  I expect this will entail intrusions into privacy that many Americans, myself included, will be very uncomfortable with. It will also have quite unpleasant (though eminently foreseeable) secondary consequences, as people who want to go back to work but don't have immunity will face economic incentives to go out and intentionally expose themselves.

I absolutely believe that unemployment benefits, healthcare services, food programs and other stopgap efforts to help the most vulnerable among us need to be extended in the interim.  

(Less sure that cruise ship companies need to be bailed out, but that is an issue for a different thread.)

Edited April 13, 2020 by Pam in CT
omitted words

[SKL]

I think it depends on each state's situation.  Those that have low, falling infection rates and not a lot of people in and out should gradually open up starting about now.  I would put the adults back to work first and the kids back to group activities last.

I hear conflicting views from medically educated people about herd immunity.  I am really not sure on that, though I personally lean toward healthy young people getting the dang thing and getting it over with (using care not to spread it to older and less healthy people).  I think there will be negative health implications as well as financial implications to isolating people, which will weigh against and possibly outweigh the health benefits.  The severe reduction in activity, sunlight, human contact, and even germs will harm immunity and mental health.

In the rare situation like NYC / New Jersey, I don't know that they have a realistic option right now, but once their cases have had a chance to go down to a manageable level, the % of people there who will have already had the disease might make them the safest in the long run.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I think it depends on each state's situation.  Those that have low, falling infection rates and not a lot of people in and out should gradually open up starting about now.  I would put the adults back to work first and the kids back to group activities last.

I hear conflicting views from medically educated people about herd immunity.  I am really not sure on that, though I personally lean toward healthy young people getting the dang thing and getting it over with (using care not to spread it to older and less healthy people).  I think there will be negative health implications as well as financial implications to isolating people, which will weigh against and possibly outweigh the health benefits.  The severe reduction in activity, sunlight, human contact, and even germs will harm immunity and mental health.

In the rare situation like NYC / New Jersey, I don't know that they have a realistic option right now, but once their cases have had a chance to go down to a manageable level, the % of people there who will have already had the disease might make them the safest in the long run.

But how on earth do you do that? I mean, older people still go to the doctor, eat food they bought or had delivered, are cared for, etc. Often, they have MORE exposure because they can't stop their chemo treatments or live in a group home, etc. There is no way to totally isolate all the people at risk (about 40% of adults). Which means the more people who go out and spread it, even asymptomatically, the more likely the vulnerable people will catch it and die. 

And stats I'm seeing are saying that although deaths are mostly older people, hospitalizations are spread pretty evenly among all ages of adults. 

[Excelsior! Academy]

9 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Do you think states should open back up?  Yes

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time?  State by state

What do you think should open back up? Incrementally with large gatherings like sports stadiums opening last.

What do you think should stay closed? See above answer

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?  Masks being more commonplace.  People maintaining a healthy distance in lines, etc.

Has your state peaked yet? I don't think so.

What state are you in? OK

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? Not that has been announced, or at least not that I am aware of.

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? No.

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? We suspect my mother has.  She traveled from CA to Las Vegas and back to CA right before the Covid news broke.  She fell while she was traveling back and was the sickest she had ever been in her life with all of the symptoms.  

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?  Pretty much the same as I am now.  We haven't had to change a lot since quarantining, with the exception of take out vs restaurants and online co-op classes for the kids.   Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? We would slowly transition back to normalcy.

 

[Pen]

9 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Do you think states should open back up? 

 

Yes. Gradually. In well thought out way. But Not yet. 

Quote

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? 

 

Individual depending upon local situation.  Also with opening up to allow help from one place to another instead of simultaneous overwhelm in many places if cases flare up. 

Quote

What do you think should open back up? 

 

Businesses that can maintain physical Distancing.  Economy important areas .

 Though Denmark experiment seems to be starting with schools, I think schools should stay closed as long as possible and continue home based education at least through end of school year and summer session

Quote

What do you think should stay closed? 

 

Schools and other places where people tend to congregate closely.  Churches.  Movie and live theaters, events. Audiences at sports events.   Comicon type things.  Cruise ships. Festivals ...

Quote

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?

 

Masks, other physical barriers, cleaning routines.   More physical distance between people

As much continuing “from home” as possible. School at home, work from home, live stream events rather than have irl audiences... telemedicine as much as possible, teleconferencing...

no public sphere social hugging, kissing, hand shaking as routine greetings / partings...

Quote

Has your state peaked yet? 

 

Doubt it. 

Quote

What state are you in? 

Oregon

Quote

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? 

Not afaik.  State is Discussing with Washington, California and Federal  (should probably discuss with British Columbia and Mexico, also. Maybe also the states touching to the east)

Quote

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? 

 

Everything seems to have been affected 🤷‍♀️ ? 

Quote

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? 

 

Idk 🤷‍♀️ — Shroedingers Cat.   Were weird symptoms CV19? Maybe. Probably not. 

Quote

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? 

 

Stay home as much as possible. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Pen

[ktgrok]

Someone mentioned not having choirs, due to airborne issues. But everyone in the pews is singing along too, not just the choir. People hear choir, and single that out rather than thinking of the broader implications. 

And I hear temperature checks...but if close to half the people with it are asymptomatic, and even those with symptoms a decent percent don't have a fever, so that isn't going to prevent spread. 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Ktgrok

[kiwik]

Based purely in this forum the US doesn't seem to have actually shut.  People are discussing getting take aways, going to Walmart, hiking and a bunch of other things that don't sound very shut down to me.  Also it brings to the forefront how un-united the states are.  Unless you are going to completely shut and patrol state borders and enforce mandatory quarantine there is no point in doing it state by state.  The whole US has to get on the same programme.

[sassenach]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I think it depends on each state's situation.  Those that have low, falling infection rates and not a lot of people in and out should gradually open up starting about now.  I would put the adults back to work first and the kids back to group activities last.

I hear conflicting views from medically educated people about herd immunity.  I am really not sure on that, though I personally lean toward healthy young people getting the dang thing and getting it over with (using care not to spread it to older and less healthy people).  I think there will be negative health implications as well as financial implications to isolating people, which will weigh against and possibly outweigh the health benefits.  The severe reduction in activity, sunlight, human contact, and even germs will harm immunity and mental health.

In the rare situation like NYC / New Jersey, I don't know that they have a realistic option right now, but once their cases have had a chance to go down to a manageable level, the % of people there who will have already had the disease might make them the safest in the long run.

My friend and I were talking about how this is like the new chicken pox. Really bad the older you are, so in the absence of a vaccine, I could totally see parents just “getting it over with.” Chicken pox occasionally went really badly for a child, but parents were much more concerned about what would happen if we didn’t get it young. 

[sassenach]

3 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Based purely in this forum the US doesn't seem to have actually shut.  People are discussing getting take aways, going to Walmart, hiking and a bunch of other things that don't sound very shut down to me.  Also it brings to the forefront how un-united the states are.  Unless you are going to completely shut and patrol state borders and enforce mandatory quarantine there is no point in doing it state by state.  The whole US has to get on the same programme.

I can’t imagine making a rural area with 2 cases do the exact same thing as New York. We’re a huge country, with radically different situations from one state to the next. 

[Spy Car]

Hell no.

Bill

[Farrar]

Haha. No. Not yet.

I think we’re peaking. Hey, first peak! Won’t be the last.

When the two governor consortiums succeed in making their plans and there’s widespread free testing and contact tracing, then we’ll talk.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Farrar

[Paige]

I think it is too soon to discuss opening things up. We should open up when we're prepared to handle the risks- when everyone who needs it can have effective PPE, when we have beds and a better idea of what the virus is doing to people and how to treat it, when anyone who wants a test can get it as easily as we get swabbed for flu or strep throat. I'd also really like to know if catching it gives you at least immunity for now or not before reopening.

Those things should be our number one focus in every state. I am tempted to say that if people in N Dakota can say they've met those conditions then they should be able to open up, but I also feel if N Dakota has plenty of PPE for their nurses and they don't need it yet, they should be sending it to NYC, Detroit, and New Orleans, and whoever is in crisis.

I'm uncomfortable with this talk of "peaking." It is not as if once your state peaks and the curve flattens and even zeros out then you are done, over with it, and can relax. It can come right back without continued vigilance and communities should be prepared rather than complacent. Think of it like the Vikings in England- they didn't just raid once, go home, and stay there. People needed to learn and be prepared for the next raid.

The 1918 flu killed more in the second peaks. I'm not a pessimist- I'm a realist. I want to open things back ASAP, but I want it done right, so we don't have to close everything down again next fall or spring! Thinking of opening up without having in place the resources we need to prevent another shutdown makes me itchy. Get the PPE, get the tests and the supplies needed to run the tests, get people ready to have contact tracing be their job, have a plan to make sure exposed people stay put- preferably outside of their homes, and do whatever else the people who know more than me are saying needs to be done. 

If the Yanomami are seeing cases then small town USA cannot be safe. 

[kiwik]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

I can’t imagine making a rural area with 2 cases do the exact same thing as New York. We’re a huge country, with radically different situations from one state to the next. 

Because you travel freely between states.  

[kiwik]

14 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

While we aren't shut down in the same way you are, when people aren't legally allowed to go to work, church, buy clothes (in stone states), etc we are shut down. Also, the states aren't lockstep united and never were supposed to be. We aren't even all on the same program now, so why would we be with opening? You have places like CA (with almost 40 million people), HI and AK (not geographically connected to the continental states), and ND as examples of why we are all on different programs. Our country is set up differently than other countries, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

True and it has worked well for a long time and still will in the future.  But what say one state pulls out all the stops and eradicates covid-19 (one of the states that is pretty low now for argument.  But the next state goes for a control method or maybe a herd immunity approach.  Can state A prevent people from State B bringing the virus in to state A? Or people going to state B to visit relatives and bring it back?  It just strikes me as problematic.  Hawaii I would not  expect to do the same thing and Alaska maybe to do more like Canada as that is who they share a border with. But the other states are physically connected.  

I think it will be state by state.  In NZ it may be some districts before others but with a travel ban and central control.  

And am I right in thinking Donald Trump can't order all the states to open as he said he would today any more than he can order them all to close?  It just doesn't seem to fit with everything else.

Edited April 14, 2020 by kiwik

[Guest]

4 hours ago, kiwik said:

True and it has worked well for a long time and still will in the future.  But what say one state pulls out all the stops and eradicates covid-19 (one of the states that is pretty low now for argument.  But the next state goes for a control method or maybe a herd immunity approach.  Can state A prevent people from State B bringing the virus in to state A? Or people going to state B to visit relatives and bring it back?  It just strikes me as problematic.  Hawaii I would not  expect to do the same thing and Alaska maybe to do more like Canada as that is who they share a border with. But the other states are physically connected.  

I think it will be state by state.  In NZ it may be some districts before others but with a travel ban and central control.  

And am I right in thinking Donald Trump can't order all the states to open as he said he would today any more than he can order them all to close?  It just doesn't seem to fit with everything else.

I don’t think any state governs as if they can eradicate it completely in their state. There has always been this tension between Fed and states - it was a huge factor in slavery and has been huge in other conflicts as well (i.e., abortion, legalized marijuana, same sex marriage...)

I don’t know exactly what restrictions there are on inter-state movement right now in the whole country (obv. most of it is not pertinent to me at the moment), but we are not supposed to be crossing state borders in my little state unless it is for essential work or life-sustaining purposes. If we cross borders, we are supposed to quarantine for 14 days. My dd has not seen her bf since this restriction came down bc he lives across state lines, though he doesn’t live very far away. 

On your last point, I am not 100% sure if he might be able to force that by Executive Order; my hunch is that, if he tried, many states would immediately bring suit, in the same manner as they did when he tried to prevent “people from Muslim countries” from coming here. I know that Hogan (MD governor) is unifying with, at minimum, other governors in our region, to have a unified plan. (Hogan is something like Chair of the Governor’s Association and Cuomo is Vice-Chair.) I suspect the purpose of banding together in this manner is to better resist being ordered around by Trump.  

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, sassenach said:

My friend and I were talking about how this is like the new chicken pox. Really bad the older you are, so in the absence of a vaccine, I could totally see parents just “getting it over with.” Chicken pox occasionally went really badly for a child, but parents were much more concerned about what would happen if we didn’t get it young. 

Except this is nothing like that. Young people are unlikely to die from this, but that doesn't mean they are not getting very very very ill. A significant portion of those hospitalized are under 40. And also unlike chicken pox, the parents don't have immunity. So if their kids get it, the parents likely will too. And if the parents end up in the hospital, who takes care of the kids? No one was worried that if their kid got chicken pox they themselves could end up in the hospital leaving their child home alone with no one to care for them. 

[ktgrok]

The binding together by the states is not political posturing - it is so they can coordinate things so you don't have people at home under a stay in place order in a hotspot and 3 miles away a store across the border that is open for business because that state has few cases and has  opened up. Only for the people from the first state to go take that lovely virus with them to Kroger or wherever and spread it to a dozen people, who then take it to work with them and spread it to hundreds more. 

You have to have some coordination precisely because they can't close their borders. 

Otherwise, it is as that one meme keeps saying - have some areas in lockdown and not others is like having a peeing section of a swimming pool. 

[madteaparty]

I think we either need European style social network where no one loses their health insurance or job (government backs up pay up to around 80%), or they open everything back up so we can reap the capitalism we have sowed. 
none of these conversation are happening, none of why is our population so at risk health wise, and what we do about THAT,  or the safety net conversation, or the immense inequalities this has exposed. No, it’s a binary economy/health. Which tells one all they need to know. 

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

Based purely in this forum the US doesn't seem to have actually shut.  People are discussing getting take aways, going to Walmart, hiking and a bunch of other things that don't sound very shut down to me.  Also it brings to the forefront how un-united the states are.  Unless you are going to completely shut and patrol state borders and enforce mandatory quarantine there is no point in doing it state by state.  The whole US has to get on the same programme.

I agree, we are neither shut down nor will anything work effectively if we aren’t on the same page. But Americans, alas, don’t take kindly to being told what to do—even when and sometimes especially if it will hurt them and the ones they care about. And the states are far from united in anything. We are a dysfunctional union, designed that way some 300 years ago and clung to despite all consequences. 
Honestly, for some us “on the inside” it’s as hard to fathom as it must be for you.

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

California and New York, the centers of media and IT power, great wealth, and leftist politics, like to think that they possess “the ring that rules them all.” The rest of the states strongly disagree.

Our one state has about the same population as all of Denmark. Not even the EU has had a uniform approach. Face it, those on the left love the idea off an all-powerful, nearly dictatorial national leader/government, and the US constitution just gets in the way. 

It’s not medicine, it’s politics.

 

Reported

[Lecka]

The “Post Reports” podcast is having a podcast about this today (April 14), I am checking it out.  I have thought they have had good coronavirus coverage.  
 

Edit:  they are talking a lot about contact tracing.  
 

They did not go into any dates or predictions/projections.  They talked a lot about the importance of contact tracing, how it has been done in other countries, and some places starting contact tracing programs.  

Edited April 14, 2020 by Lecka

Meanwhile, in Florida... the State of Florida has decreed that professional sports with "national audiences" are an essential service, and as such, are allowed to operate, as long as there are no spectators.  The wresting company WWE is set to broadcast live from their Florida studies this week.  There will be no audience, but lots of performers, announcers, cameramen, etc.  So, I don't think the US is "locked down" in the same way that other parts of the world are.

[Pen]

9 hours ago, kiwik said:

Based purely in this forum the US doesn't seem to have actually shut.  People are discussing getting take aways, going to Walmart, hiking and a bunch of other things that don't sound very shut down to me.  Also it brings to the forefront how un-united the states are.  Unless you are going to completely shut and patrol state borders and enforce mandatory quarantine there is no point in doing it state by state.  The whole US has to get on the same programme.

 

No, None of the USA that I know of has shut like NZ.

If USA had done that, for same length of time as it did half arsed shutting, I believe it would be in better shape now.

If individuals would spend the rest of April doing personal hard core shut down (a personal responsibility idea!) even without a mandate, I think we would be in much better shape, medically speaking, and more ready for a careful opening to begin in May-June-ish.   

Even without a lot of testing available, a hard core 2-3 week national quarantine (even essentially self administered rather than mandated) could allow a great deal of discovery of actual cases of illness and reasonably accurate guesses as to likely asymptomatic carriers for longer quarantine for the infectious.  (It would not necessarily even matter if it is an actual SARS-CoV-2 viral illness... symptoms that could be for anyone in a household could be dealt with as if potentially CV19) 

But USA doesn’t have a cooperative and compliant populace. (I am sure you have seen that just from reading threads here.)  Not even the “soccer moms “ of the nation seem all that cooperative and compliant.  And we don’t have (nor want , other than perhaps a tiny minority of people who might) a North Korea or even Singapore level of police state enforcement. 

And it is huge compared to NZ .

The concept of separate relatively autonomous states is an important historic and ongoing feature of the USA, both legally and in the way people (especially from some states) feel. Many USA individual states are bigger than NZ, and only Hawaii has a similarly geographically clear edge. So enforcing a whole state border isn’t all that feasible.  

ETA: Possibly if you think of USA for CV19 purposes like Great Britain, or like all the countries that have Queen Elizabeth as their queen, it would make more sense that state by state or group regions of states is still helpful, not pointless.  England doing something alone would still be helpful. Scotland doing something alone still helpful. Or similarly if you think of individual European countries acting alone as still more helpful than nothing even though they share borders. I think it would be a huge mistake to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. And even if borders are open, if a state is very shut down it tends to discourage travel into it if there are no hotels, no restaurants, no tourist attractions open. 

 

Regions of states working together as is currently being discussed IMO makes much sense. For States that have much traffic between them along highways or on commuter trains or busses, it makes sense to have a cooperative opening plan.
 

Trucking, trains, ships and planes probably need a lot of National level control. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Pen

[mlktwins]

I have no control over what the Federal Government and the states do.  I think they should wait and see how things play out for while longer and not rush it.  My state is stay at home through June 10th and our schools were closed for the year early on (we were the 2nd state to do this).  

For my family, we will continue to stay home regardless of what the powers that be decide.  I’m going to let all the people that want to rush things, get out, and get back to “normal” be the guinea pigs and risk their health.  

[TravelingChris]

Do you think states should open back up?  Not yet but I do not know the specifics of what is shut down in each of the 50 states plus all the territories and DC.  Our shutdown lets manufacturing jobs go on though many have shut down anyway-specifically all of our auto manufacturing

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time?  State by state or even better, by local areas---- some areas have very little medical support, 

What do you think should open back up? Start with more retail, I guess.  We need more PPE for everyone

What do you think should stay closed? Indoor places that are high risk because of heavy breathing (gyms, etc), crowdedness- music venues, churches, etc== also outdoor crowds- festivals, spectator sports, etc

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up? people have masks on

Has your state peaked yet? not according to our health professionals

What state are you in? Al

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? They have a committee but are working on it.  Schools are closed for the school year

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? Dh's job not affected monetarily but definitely as to what he can do

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid?  Not as far as we know though dd2 may have it right now but test was negative (tests have false negatives about 20% of the time)

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? Once I get a supply of N100 masks for me, I will be able to rejoin society pretty much normally.  Otherwise, it is social isolation for the time being except for isolated outdoors or later on, going camping or to a cabin or something in the summer or fall.

[edelweiss]

19 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Do you think states should open back up?  NO

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? State by State

What do you think should open back up?  All retail, office buildings, etc., provided that the businesses have worked out ways to put distance between employees and employees and customers and have upped their cleaning processes, etc.

What do you think should stay closed? Any large gatherings-- amusements parks, movie theaters, sports venues, concerts

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?  Strongly suggesting that people wear masks, extra cleaning, thought put into ways to discourage people from gathering,  but instead maintaining distance from each other

Has your state peaked yet? Not sure. It doesn't look like we will have a major peak, but instead are experiencing a flattened one

What state are you in? OH

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? They have been developing one and plan to start sharing details soon

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? No

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? No

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things?  We will be staying home as much as possible.  I don't plan to do much differently than I am now.  I will continue to have groceries delivered, only order online, etc.  

 

[Pen]

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible.  

 

[Kanin]

9 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Someone mentioned not having choirs, due to airborne issues. But everyone in the pews is singing along too, not just the choir. People hear choir, and single that out rather than thinking of the broader implications. 

And I hear temperature checks...but if close to half the people with it are asymptomatic, and even those with symptoms a decent percent don't have a fever, so that isn't going to prevent spread. 

 

This is what makes me wonder about schools, too... masks aren't that effective, and classrooms are crowded. We can all wear face shields, but that only protects against droplets, not aerosolized particles. 

[mlktwins]

52 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

Our family will be very cautious, too, but I don’t wish ill health or death on those that disagree with me or need to get back to work.

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t wish any of this on anyone!!!  But...I have been out twice since March 15th, and see what is going on in my neighborhood everyday day, and I still see a lot of people doing things they shouldn't.   And many people will go right back to living like they did before without taking precautions.  Those people put everyone else at risk!  And just because we don’t die from this virus, doesn’t mean we won’t have lasting effects on our brain, heart, lungs, liver, kidney, etc. health.

My personal goal is to stay healthy to be able to keep taking care of my elderly father (I’m all he has) and in-laws.  My DH’s goal is to stay healthy to be able to take care of my dad and his parents, one of which was just diagnosed in March with stage 3 cancer.  

I think everone is rushing this.  My opinion.

Edited April 14, 2020 by mlktwins

[Paige]

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible.  

 

I don't think shutting down nursing homes long term is a safe or humane plan. Even good ones are incredibly lonely places and they can be dangerous without accountability. I think we should encourage home health care with increased medicare and medicaid coverage to get as many people out of them as possible, but also to find ways to allow visitors. We may have to accept some risk, but I feel most residents would prefer that risk to being abandoned in care homes, unvisited, for their own safety. 

I've been in a few good facilities, but most are places that I don't enjoy spending an hour in even as a visitor! 

[Paige]

Do you think states will be forced to reduce class sizes in public schools before reopening? 

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, Mainer said:

This is what makes me wonder about schools, too... masks aren't that effective, and classrooms are crowded. We can all wear face shields, but that only protects against droplets, not aerosolized particles. 

 

Agree. Schools should not be reopening physically now or summer sessions. (Except maybe unusual exceptions like nursing and medical schools). And probably not in fall

 

20 minutes ago, Paige said:

I don't think shutting down nursing homes long term is a safe or humane plan. Even good ones are incredibly lonely places and they can be dangerous without accountability. I think we should encourage home health care with increased medicare and medicaid coverage to get as many people out of them as possible, but also to find ways to allow visitors. We may have to accept some risk, but I feel most residents would prefer that risk to being abandoned in care homes, unvisited, for their own safety. 

I've been in a few good facilities, but most are places that I don't enjoy spending an hour in even as a visitor! 

 

I agree that I think increased home health care where possible is a good idea. 

I think for people in facilities other forms of visiting need to be found for awhile, like virtual visits.  Many people in facilities are never visited at all even in non CV19 times. So visiting all residents virtually, those with lots of friends and relatives to visit usually, and those with none usually,  might help everyone to get some sense of contact with less risk.

The risk is not merely to the nursing home residents themselves or to them and their families.

It is very high risk to staff, high risk to fire department personnel, EMT, medics, law enforcement  and other respondents when there is emergency and thence to medical staff at hospitals, and from all of these to whole community. 

 

Maybe in addition to thinking about what an individual resident and family want in regard to visits, it needs to be thought through what happens if visitors with asymptomatic CV19 bring it in to facility and it then spreads quickly and widely in the facility also infecting staff (which has happened in a number of such facilities, not an unlikely hypothetical idea). With staff increasingly out sick or quarantined (or in hospital, or dead) there will be fewer and fewer people to take care of the nursing home population.  And it is already a hard job, not one likely to attract lots of new workers if there is a substantial likelihood of serious illness, possibly long term health damage or maybe even death from doing it. 

So there is “abandonment” by not making irl visits to be weighed against serious other risks of others getting severely ill, not wanting to care for nursing home patients and the like. 

But certainly for people who can do so to bring relatives home and care for them at home when able makes a great deal of sense. Then you don’t need to feel you have abandoned relatives (or old friends), and the risk taken on is relatively more controllable to within the family home. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Pen

[Hyacinth]

5 minutes ago, Paige said:

I don't think shutting down nursing homes long term is a safe or humane plan. Even good ones are incredibly lonely places and they can be dangerous without accountability. I think we should encourage home health care with increased medicare and medicaid coverage to get as many people out of them as possible, but also to find ways to allow visitors. We may have to accept some risk, but I feel most residents would prefer that risk to being abandoned in care homes, unvisited, for their own safety. 

I've been in a few good facilities, but most are places that I don't enjoy spending an hour in even as a visitor! 

I think this is what the argument comes down to (not just regarding nursing homes, but every institution, workplace, social event, etc.). How much risk am I willing to assume for my own physical, mental, and financial health? But, of course, it isn’t that simple. Because one person’s tolerance for risk (and the associated behaviors, whether social isolation OR out-and-about life) impacts someone else’s physical, mental, and financial well-being.

[DoraBora]

36 minutes ago, Pen said:

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible.  

 

So, since NH residents who contract Covid-19 have a high risk of dying, alone and isolated, in a hospital, we'll keep them, alone and isolated, in skilled nursing to prevent them from becoming infected in the first place(?).

[Joker]

25 minutes ago, Paige said:

Do you think states will be forced to reduce class sizes in public schools before reopening? 

When we lived in Florida a law was passed to reduce class size and it was awful in our area. Schools didn't have the money, staff, or the room for it. It was particularly bad at the high school level because it meant many kids didn't get the classes they wanted / needed. Several of ds' friends would have multiple PE classes because there was no room in the class they wanted. I hope it's better there now but I would hate to see that suddenly implemented across the board.

[SKL]

11 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

But how on earth do you do that? I mean, older people still go to the doctor, eat food they bought or had delivered, are cared for, etc. Often, they have MORE exposure because they can't stop their chemo treatments or live in a group home, etc. There is no way to totally isolate all the people at risk (about 40% of adults). Which means the more people who go out and spread it, even asymptomatically, the more likely the vulnerable people will catch it and die. 

And stats I'm seeing are saying that although deaths are mostly older people, hospitalizations are spread pretty evenly among all ages of adults. 

The thing is that if we don't achieve herd immunity, the vulnerable people are going to be vulnerable that much longer.  I think it is more dangerous to them if we let this thing go on indefinitely because of healthy people being afraid to catch it.

We are learning more and more about how this virus spreads and what people can do to prevent the spread and mitigate the effects before and during a case.  More masks and hand washing, fewer handshakes etc ... these can be done without shutting down the whole world.

I am among the people who have no desire to get vaccinated against this.  For most people, getting the virus itself could be less dangerous than getting a vaccine.  For those who want a vax, it's great that they're developing one, but a vax is not the ultimate solution for everyone.  That aside from the fact that it will take a long time before people can trust a new vax.  And keeping humans apart that long is literally dangerous.

[Joker]

I don't think states should be opening back up yet but I hope all are making plans on how. My state isn't really testing at all unless your super sick or a health care provider / first responder but my county's first death was a community spread patient so I know many here must have it.

Whenever they do open up, we will stay in still as much as possible. Dh has been working from home for years and I don't work so it will be easy. Both dc are doing school online now and then will have summer off. I honestly will be surprised if their college is fully open in the fall so we will probably have a long while yet to be staying in.

[sassenach]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Except this is nothing like that. Young people are unlikely to die from this, but that doesn't mean they are not getting very very very ill. A significant portion of those hospitalized are under 40. And also unlike chicken pox, the parents don't have immunity. So if their kids get it, the parents likely will too. And if the parents end up in the hospital, who takes care of the kids? No one was worried that if their kid got chicken pox they themselves could end up in the hospital leaving their child home alone with no one to care for them. 

I wasn’t saying that this is how it currently is. I completely understand the differences. I was saying that without a vaccine, I could see this being how society would treat it in the future.