Does “No problem” in response to “Thank you” upset you?

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I had no idea anyone felt this way about Ma'am.  Hmmmm

 

54 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Um, yes. Probably most of the country. 

I've lived all over and have never lived anywhere where this wasn’t true, West coast, Midwest, New England...

 

I also had no idea (until I joined WTM, lol). I'm deep south but I think Scarlett is more southwest. 

[Scarlett]

34 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

 

I also had no idea (until I joined WTM, lol). I'm deep south but I think Scarlett is more southwest. 

I am in OK now, but raised up in AR which is oddly more southern than OK....

[HS Mom in NC]

39 minutes ago, maize said:

I was in the military, so do see ma'am and sir as terms of respect. 

The military is hierarchical, so it applies.  American culture is not.

[wintermom]

20 hours ago, Kassia said:

No problem doesn't bother me at all but recently I've had people respond with, "no worries" and I felt like it implied that I was worried when I wasn't.  I'm sure it's just an expression but I definitely prefer no problem.  

I thought "no worries" was an Australian version of "no problem" or "everything is great!" I've heard several Aussies use this (mostly on TV), but that was decades ago. Perhaps it's moved to North America now?  I love the sound of "no worries" with an Australian accent. It always sounds so upbeat and positive. 

[HS Mom in NC]

36 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

 

I also had no idea (until I joined WTM, lol). I'm deep south but I think Scarlett is more southwest. 

The Southwest does not include OK.  It's NV, AZ, NM and maybe the desert parts of CO, CA and some of TX, but that's where it gets fuzzy. TX is regionally an outlier because of it's former independent nationhood, which is culturally a different thing. Cultural regions are harder to identify, but the first 3 I list are fairly socially similar. They're a subset of the Mountain West with a lot of Northern Mexican influences.  When sociologists look at the 11 cultural nations/regions within the US, the SW is referred to as El Norte.

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

The Southwest does not include OK.  It's NV, AZ, NM and maybe the desert parts of CO, CA and some of TX, but that's where it gets fuzzy. TX is regionally an outlier because of it's former independent nationhood, which is culturally a different thing. Cultural regions are harder to identify, but the first 3 I list are fairly socially similar. They're a subset of the Mountain West with a lot of Northern Mexican influences.  When sociologists look at the 11 cultural nations/regions within the US, the SW is referred to as El Norte.

I just now realized she said she thought I was in the southwest.....I think OK is more midwest?  I don't know.  Feels like a different world than AR believe it or not.  I had a stranger comment on my accent the other day....

[wintermom]

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder where the English expression "you're welcome" actually comes from, and why it has come to mean something very different than the literal "you are welcome [to my home/country]?  There are times when I hear a French speaker in Quebec respond "bienvenue" to "merci." While "bienvenue" does literally mean "welcome" it does not mean "you're welcome." It's a weird twist on the bilingual-ness of the region. 

[Pam in CT]

41 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder where the English expression "you're welcome" actually comes from, and why it has come to mean something very different than the literal "you are welcome [to my home/country]?  There are times when I hear a French speaker in Quebec respond "bienvenue" to "merci." While "bienvenue" does literally mean "welcome" it does not mean "you're welcome." It's a weird twist on the bilingual-ness of the region. 

I was just thinking about this too!

I don't actually know.  But the sense my mind stitched together was that it might derive similarly to the Old English phrase "well met."  

Like (I imagined in my head), you've had someone over for mutton and boiled cabbage and mead for dinner, they stood at the door on the way out and said thank you, you said "you're well come," meaning, it is well that you came.  Suggesting a reciprocal pleasure in the encounter.

I have no idea if this is actually the etymology but it made good sense inside my head, LOL

 

I often see English nuance better by comparing to other languages.  To me, if I draw a spectrum with "de nada"/"de rien"/"no problem" on one end; and "con mucho gusto"/"avec plaisir"/"with pleasure" on the other end, "you're welcome" is straight up in the middle. Today.  But if the "well met / well come" etymology is right, perhaps it once derived more on the "with pleasure" side of the spectrum.

ETA: and not all encounters that generate thanks *are* reciprocally pleasurable, and that's fine.  When you have people over for dinner, or host family holidays, etc, there *is* joy in the hosting as well as in the eating. Commercial transactions not so much.  That's fine.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Pam in CT

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

I thought "no worries" was an Australian version of "no problem" or "everything is great!" I've heard several Aussies use this (mostly on TV), but that was decades ago. Perhaps it's moved to North America now?  I love the sound of "no worries" with an Australian accent. It always sounds so upbeat and positive. 

 

Interesting...the first time I heard, "no worries" was from someone from Australia!  

[SKL]

3 hours ago, maize said:

Couldn't "you're welcome" just as easily be said I'm a grudging tone?

Yes, but I think it goes back to a pp's comment that "no" and "problem" are negative terms to begin with.  In other words the default is apparently that there *is* a problem.  With "you are welcome," it is more "I am happy to do this for you," vs. "well I guess this isn't costing me too much."   I guess I'm having a hard time picturing an adult saying "you're welcome" in a tone that means "you aren't welcome."

[SKL]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

I thought "no worries" was an Australian version of "no problem" or "everything is great!" I've heard several Aussies use this (mostly on TV), but that was decades ago. Perhaps it's moved to North America now?  I love the sound of "no worries" with an Australian accent. It always sounds so upbeat and positive. 

I've seen this used by Canadians to mean "that's OK."  As in "I'm sorry I missed that" "no worries."

[SKL]

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder where the English expression "you're welcome" actually comes from, and why it has come to mean something very different than the literal "you are welcome [to my home/country]?  There are times when I hear a French speaker in Quebec respond "bienvenue" to "merci." While "bienvenue" does literally mean "welcome" it does not mean "you're welcome." It's a weird twist on the bilingual-ness of the region. 

I assume it is a shorter form of "you are welcome to it" or "you are always welcome" -  as in:  "Thanks so much for your hospitality" "you are welcome."  "Thanks for lending me your harvester."  "You are welcome."

[Melissa in Australia]

52 minutes ago, Kassia said:

 

Interesting...the first time I heard, "no worries" was from someone from Australia!  

Yes  we use no worries and no problem

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Yes, but I think it goes back to a pp's comment that "no" and "problem" are negative terms to begin with.  In other words the default is apparently that there *is* a problem.  With "you are welcome," it is more "I am happy to do this for you," vs. "well I guess this isn't costing me too much."   I guess I'm having a hard time picturing an adult saying "you're welcome" in a tone that means "you aren't welcome."

 

Imagine someone plenty old enough to have manners barging in front of you through a doorway in a way that would have been acceptable enough had they thanked you, but they completely ignored your existence instead, and you've said "you're welcome" in a very disapproving voice as a way of reminding them they've omitted their part of the social contract.

My mother was very good at this. lol

[Ausmumof3]

We say no problem or no worries all the time.

and our lovely Italian neighbours always used to say “this is nothing” of you thanked them

[Corraleno]

On 8/7/2019 at 3:37 PM, Wilma said:

Doesn't bother me at all, but it's also not my favorite. I'm a Texan, and the gold standard here is "yes ma'am/sir."

So, imagine having walked through a door a teenaged kid is holding open for you and your crew. You say, "Thank you." And he replies, "Yes, ma'am." Is that not the actual nicest thing?

The other nicest reply I know is the Dominican Republic's "siempre," which means always. Is that not the other nicest??

This actually makes the least sense to me of all the possible responses, lol. What exactly is the person agreeing with?

"Thank you for holding the door."  "Yes, ma'am, I did hold the door."
"Thank you for holding the door." "Yes, ma'am, I agree with you that I should be thanked for holding the door."
"Thank you for holding the door." "Yes, ma'am, I acknowledge that you just thanked me for holding the door."

 

[Tanaqui]

4 hours ago, wintermom said:

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder where the English expression "you're welcome" actually comes from, and why it has come to mean something very different than the literal "you are welcome [to my home/country]?  There are times when I hear a French speaker in Quebec respond "bienvenue" to "merci." While "bienvenue" does literally mean "welcome" it does not mean "you're welcome." It's a weird twist on the bilingual-ness of the region. 

 

I was taught as a child that "You're welcome" was literally short for "You're welcome to my service", but I cannot find any evidence that this is, in fact, the etymological origin of the phrase. Regardless, the sentiment is there.

[Corraleno]

I'm a boomer and "no problem" doesn't bother me at all. I use it all the time myself, and consider "no problem" and "you're welcome" to be equivalent. (When I lived in the UK, "no worries" was common, although it's not used as much in the US.) I would only say "my pleasure" if I genuinely meant it, so I would only use it with people I'm close to. If someone says "my pleasure" when they're just doing their job, like a cashier or sales clerk, it just sounds a bit formal and artificial to me — I don't actually believe that ringing up my groceries is a source of pleasure for anyone. 

[SereneHome]

11 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My cousin lives in rural Maine.  Her teen daughter's new classmate moved there from The South.  On the first day of school he was sent to the principal's office because the teacher asked him something and he responded reflexively with, "Yes, Ma'am."  Like many parts of the US, it was interpreted as sarcasm.  No one uses Ma'am or Sir unless they're joking around and/or being sarcastic in most of the US.  The kid's pastor talked to the principal explaining that it was an automatic reaction and not meant sarcastically and everyone cooled down. 

You can see the Old World British culture in The South.  They value traditionalism and conformity so much more than the rest of the US, which is why they're not keeping up with national social norms.  They're more hierarchically oriented than the rest of the US which values egalitarianism. Other places would find it offensive and condescending the way adults refer to adult women, even married ones, here in NC as Miss Lisa or Miss Diane.  I still can't bring myself to do it  because it's soooo freaking demeaning where I come from. Miss is for employees who don't know a woman's name. I simply make eye contact and speak directly, avoiding the Miss all together. If I have to get her attention I just say, "Pardon me."

OMG, I almost got yelled at what saying "thank you, sir" to a gentleman in a store.  I am in NH...and evidently it's insulting here.  I was *this* close to say to the guy that he shouldn't worry, next time, I'll just call  him a jerk.

[daijobu]

On 8/7/2019 at 3:14 PM, Garga said:

Musing:  the phrase “you’re welcome” kinda doesn’t mean anything.  Welcome usually means a friendly greeting, like when you are invited into a home.  “Welcome to my home!”  So if you do someone a favor and they say “Thank you” and you say, “You’re welcome,” ...welcome to do what?  Saying “you’re welcome” is completely meaningless.  Which, I suppose, is why it fits the definition of a phatic phrase, as defined in the video—phatic phrases are somewhat meaningless of themselves.

 

 

"You're welcome" to me means, "You are welcome to ask me for a favor any time.  Because I'm happy to help a friend."  Or something to that effect.

Once my dd returned to dh an I after assisting a Spanish speaker (at the airport or some public place).  She said she was embarrassed because after the Spanish speaker thanked her with a "Gracias" she responded "No problemo."  

DH and I had no idea why she would be embarrassed.  Dd needed to explain to us that "No problemo" is not actual Spanish.  

[daijobu]

It's also nice to not say "You're welcome" until someone has thanked you first:

 

[Meriwether]

I often say no problem because I am often uncomfortable being thanked. The more effusive the thanks, the more I deflect. If I come across as rude, it isn't my intention.

[Jaybee]

On 8/7/2019 at 11:07 PM, katilac said:

Same in my neck of the woods! Ma'am and sir alike. 

Here too. I work in an office, and use ma'am and sir liberally with my co-workers, some of whom I am old enough to have mothered. I don't use it mockingly nor subserviently--it's just an expression of politeness. None of them seem to have been offended by it, ever.

[Jaybee]

22 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My cousin lives in rural Maine.  Her teen daughter's new classmate moved there from The South.  On the first day of school he was sent to the principal's office because the teacher asked him something and he responded reflexively with, "Yes, Ma'am."  Like many parts of the US, it was interpreted as sarcasm.  No one uses Ma'am or Sir unless they're joking around and/or being sarcastic in most of the US.  The kid's pastor talked to the principal explaining that it was an automatic reaction and not meant sarcastically and everyone cooled down. 

You can see the Old World British culture in The South.  They value traditionalism and conformity so much more than the rest of the US, which is why they're not keeping up with national social norms.  They're more hierarchically oriented than the rest of the US which values egalitarianism. Other places would find it offensive and condescending the way adults refer to adult women, even married ones, here in NC as Miss Lisa or Miss Diane.  I still can't bring myself to do it  because it's soooo freaking demeaning where I come from. Miss is for employees who don't know a woman's name. I simply make eye contact and speak directly, avoiding the Miss all together. If I have to get her attention I just say, "Pardon me."

Wow, this second paragraph comes across to me as very condescending. Originally from the South, but really? All areas of the country (all cultures, actually) have their own cultural quirks. It doesn't mean they are backward or behind the times, or rude or demeaning. It means that wherever you go to live, you don't insist on taking your cultural norms and applying them to everybody in your new location. It doesn't mean you mock them or laugh at them (I've lived in many many places, and this often happens when you don't understand a new-to-you culture.) It means you take the time to learn those cultural quirks of where you now live, and you respect them. 

ETA: It means that when you move where the 80-90-year-olds want you to call them by their first names and never call them ma'am or sir, you do that. Or you are where they expect Mr. or Mrs. and last name, ma'am and sir, you do that. Or where the kids call you Mrs. last name, and everybody uses ma'am and sir, yet the older people want to be called by their first names, you do that. Or if you are where the people refer to you as Madam and want to serve you, you don't diminish that by acting horrified--you act gracious and appreciative, rather than entitled and proud. These situations are not theoretical to me. You don't assume negative connotations because of cultural norms, at least not in general or until you understand the culture a whole lot better than you do initially.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jaybee

[Wheres Toto]

22 hours ago, TCB said:

I've always had everyone call me by my first name, but I'm starting to rethink that now. I'm the coach of a robotics team and I really think it might help some of the kids be more polite if they had to call me Mrs. ... I'm kind of sad about it because I've always gone by my first name and never really had a problem until recent times.

I'm not sure it's going to help.   Kids who are rude are going to be rude regardless of what they have to call you.   If they are kids that already know you (which I assume since you know they are rude) are unlikely to change what they are used to calling you.

I teach classes to homeschoolers and run a 4-H club (and I'm starting a new robotics club).   I always tell the kids they can call me whatever they want.   First class I usually say "you can call me Miss Dorothy, Mrs. <last name>, Dorothy, Hey You, Teacher Lady".    Most call me Miss Dorothy since that's the most common form around here for teachers outside of public schools and what parents seem to prefer.  Sunday School, day cares, preschools, etc. all seem to do the Miss <first name>.   Nobody does Sir or Ma'am around here.

18 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

I personally like hearing a mix. If someone ALWAYS said "no problem" to me, after a while it might grate. I'm picturing a birthday celebration where someone unwraps a gift and says to the giver, "thank you" and gets, "no problem" back. Some circumstances it just feels a little weirder, iykwim. Can you imagine a TV commercial where a woman is gushing over the jewelry her husband got her (I love it! thank you!) and he's like, "no problem"? Lol

I use no problem when the thank you is in response to something I've done.   I use you're welcome if it's in response to a thank you for a gift.  No problem doesn't make sense to me in that situation.

[73349]

On 8/7/2019 at 6:37 PM, Wilma said:

Doesn't bother me at all, but it's also not my favorite. I'm a Texan, and the gold standard here is "yes ma'am/sir."

So, imagine having walked through a door a teenaged kid is holding open for you and your crew. You say, "Thank you." And he replies, "Yes, ma'am." Is that not the actual nicest thing?

The other nicest reply I know is the Dominican Republic's "siempre," which means always. Is that not the other nicest??

My favorite was "It's my privilege," used by a man from South Africa living in the US. The TX "yes, ma'am" is fine as an acknowledgement that he understands his responsibility the interaction.

On 8/7/2019 at 6:46 PM, Kassia said:

No problem doesn't bother me at all but recently I've had people respond with, "no worries" and I felt like it implied that I was worried when I wasn't.  I'm sure it's just an expression but I definitely prefer no problem.  

"No worries" sounds fine from Australians, but from other Americans, it only sounds unforced to me in response to an apology (such as for being late).

22 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My cousin lives in rural Maine.  Her teen daughter's new classmate moved there from The South.  On the first day of school he was sent to the principal's office because the teacher asked him something and he responded reflexively with, "Yes, Ma'am."  Like many parts of the US, it was interpreted as sarcasm.  No one uses Ma'am or Sir unless they're joking around and/or being sarcastic in most of the US.  The kid's pastor talked to the principal explaining that it was an automatic reaction and not meant sarcastically and everyone cooled down.

Yup. I grew up in CT with parents from MA, and it took me quite a while after moving to NC to get used to the idea that people were speaking without a hint of sarcasm or irony when using sir and ma'am outside of customer service/trying to get a stranger's attention. I was raised to say "yes, please,"/"no, thank you," or "yes, I did,"/"no, I didn't," or whatever. My mom might well have slapped me if I had called answered with "yes, ma'am": she would've rightly assumed I was accusing her of being obnoxious, because there is no courteous reason a New Englander would use sir/ma'am to a family member.  After 20 years in the South, I can ma'am a bit and am no longer taken aback by receiving it, but I don't think I've used "yes, sir." At least we're in an area with a lot of other transplants.

Edited August 9, 2019 by whitehawk

[marbel]

22 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

My cousin lives in rural Maine.  Her teen daughter's new classmate moved there from The South.  On the first day of school he was sent to the principal's office because the teacher asked him something and he responded reflexively with, "Yes, Ma'am."  Like many parts of the US, it was interpreted as sarcasm.  No one uses Ma'am or Sir unless they're joking around and/or being sarcastic in most of the US.  The kid's pastor talked to the principal explaining that it was an automatic reaction and not meant sarcastically and everyone cooled down. 

<snip>

I would wonder about a teacher who couldn't figure out that a kid from a different part of the country may have been exposed to different cultural norms.  Really, sent him to the principal's office on the first day of school for addressing her incorrectly?  Made no attempt AT ALL to coach the kid in the local ways of addressing people?  She seriously had no notion that "Ma'am" was considered the proper way to address people in some parts of the US?  She must not have been very well read.  To Kill A Mockingbird comes immediately to mind, full of sirs and ma'ams used respectfully. 

[Lady Florida.]

15 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 

and our lovely Italian neighbours always used to say “this is nothing” of you thanked them

My grandmother, a child of Italian immigrants, used to say di nulla and prego interchangeably. 

[sweet2ndchance]

@daijobu Thanks a lot now that song is going to stuck in my head all day and I didn't even watch the video lol :-P

Speaking of daijobu, when we lived in Japan one of the first phrases we learned was the many different ways to say Thank you and how to bow when thanking someone. Thank you is pretty easy, "domo arigato".  But "domo" or "arigato" by themselves can also be used casually to say something close to "Thanks". "Domo arigato gozaimasu" is roughly equivalent to "Thank you very much" with a deep bow. We had a Japanese family that we quickly became friends with while we lived there and the husband spoke fluent English and of course Japanese. I asked him one day how do you say "You're welcome" and he laughed and said do you really want to know? I was confused and said "um, yeah?..." The Japanese phrase/word for "you're welcome" is "Do itashi mashite" (dough-ee-tah-she-mah-she-tay). lol I had to get him to say it slowly for me several times before I had it down.

All that to say, I don't care how someone says thank you or you're welcome. Unless you are a haughty teenager or you act like one, I assume that whatever phrase(s) you use are meant sincerely and it has more to do with the culture you grew up in than the actual meaning of the words. I often use "no worries" but I've never been to Australia. I honestly don't know where I first heard it or how it became a part of my personal venacular.

Now, how you apologize is a big deal to me but I know that has a lot to do with my past and it is my hang up. lol

[HS Mom in NC]

3 hours ago, Jaybee said:

Wow, this second paragraph comes across to me as very condescending. Originally from the South, but really? All areas of the country (all cultures, actually) have their own cultural quirks. It doesn't mean they are backward or behind the times, than you do initially.

I'm not talking about quirks.  I'm talking about sociologically studied norms.  You might want to read up on the 11 different regional cultures in the US as studies by sociologists so you better understand the differences between quirks and general norms.  Yes, The South is notably behind current social norms from the US and they have been based on their differing values systems. This is a fact.  Slavery wasn't outlawed as quickly, civil rights laws weren't respected until relatively recently, inter-racial marriage legalized , diversification of wedding and funeral norms, diversification of different branches of Christianity, etc. There weren't innovative educational changes or technological changes coming from The South much either because innovation and change are not highly valued by most people steeped in Southern culture.   Changes, social, religious, cultural, technological, educational, happen much faster in parts of the country where traditionalism ("This is the way WE'VE always done it here..." ) is not valued, and is often discouraged.  So the rest of the US has, for the most part, dropped honorifics like Mr. and Mrs. and Ma'am and Sir.  The South has not.  This is not the same as calling someone backward. It's a fact that change happens more slowly here.  That's relevant to this discussion, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. The only people offended by comparison and contrast are people who highly value conformity.  People who value diversity see difference as neutral and find discussing the pros and cons valuable.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, marbel said:

I would wonder about a teacher who couldn't figure out that a kid from a different part of the country may have been exposed to different cultural norms.  Really, sent him to the principal's office on the first day of school for addressing her incorrectly?  Made no attempt AT ALL to coach the kid in the local ways of addressing people?  She seriously had no notion that "Ma'am" was considered the proper way to address people in some parts of the US?  She must not have been very well read.  To Kill A Mockingbird comes immediately to mind, full of sirs and ma'ams used respectfully. 

I wasn't there, so I don't have detailed knowledge of the situation, which left me with questions:

1. Was this one of the people from The South without a drawl?  Moving here to NC I was surprised by how many younger people (Gen X and younger)  born and raised here have no accent. I expected it with the youngest two generations, not as much with Gen X. My cousin (40 years old) and her kids (4-14) have almost no Maine accent at all in spite of being born and raised there. You only hear it if they're really excited about something with a few words here and there.   If that's the case, the teacher with a new freshman who has no regional Southern accent might not have even know he was from somewhere else.  All the kids the first day of their freshman year are new to the high school teachers.

2. As we have seen on the board here, it's only used in a negative way outside The South, so shouldn't people who are no longer in The South adjust accordingly? If not, why not? (These are not rhetorical questions.  I'm interested in discussing different takes on it.)  And how is it that Southerners don't know that this everything from abnormal-rude nation wide? Do they not notice on TV, in movies, in books, etc. that people who aren't from The South never use it?   What assumptions are they making about people who don't use it? Are they assuming people everywhere else are just raised to be rude? Are they willing to accept the fact that it's offensive some places or are they insisting that because it isn't offensive where they come from that people outside The South should ignore their own cultural norms if a Southerner lets it slip outside The South?  In other words, can any of us have it both ways?

3. What do we do about the homogenization of America? I looked up the stats that 50% of people in NC were not born here.  They're transplants.  Between my neighborhood, church, women's group and homeschool circles I see that at least 50% of people in those circles are from all over the US.  It's higher at church and the homeschool group.  When the majority population is no longer Southern, is it even realistic to expect Southern culture to remain the same?  Why? That's not how cultures work.  Cultures change based on the values of the people in the culture. One of the situations this has created is the outrage about statues to Civil War soldiers on taxpayer funded places. Another is the demand for charter schools. Another is changes in weddings and death rituals. The internet is also a huge factor-it's the pipe line of very different, often contradictory ideas made accessible to everyone. Things are changing right now, not just for the characters on Downton Abbey.  What are people deciding to do about that change and why?

[Lady Florida.]

34 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm not talking about quirks.  I'm talking about sociologically studied norms.  You might want to read up on the 11 different regional cultures in the US as studies by sociologists so you better understand the differences between quirks and general norms.  Yes, The South is notably behind current social norms from the US and they have been based on their differing values systems. This is a fact.  Slavery wasn't outlawed as quickly, civil rights laws weren't respected until relatively recently, inter-racial marriage legalized , diversification of wedding and funeral norms, diversification of different branches of Christianity, etc. There weren't innovative educational changes or technological changes coming from The South much either because innovation and change are not highly valued by most people steeped in Southern culture.   Changes, social, religious, cultural, technological, educational, happen much faster in parts of the country where traditionalism ("This is the way WE'VE always done it here..." ) is not valued, and is often discouraged.  So the rest of the US has, for the most part, dropped honorifics like Mr. and Mrs. and Ma'am and Sir.  The South has not.  This is not the same as calling someone backward. It's a fact that change happens more slowly here.  That's relevant to this discussion, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. The only people offended by comparison and contrast are people who highly value conformity.  People who value diversity see difference as neutral and find discussing the pros and cons valuable.

Until recently south also didn't have as many immigrants as larger northern cities so there wasn't much diversity. Many of the immigrants (often Italian) they did get were mostly agricultural workers, with the exception of New Orleans. 

Even as late as 1970 when my family moved to where I currently live, there was little ethnic diversity. Deeper in the south it was even less so.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[HS Mom in NC]

3 hours ago, whitehawk said:

My favorite was "It's my privilege," used by a man from South Africa living in the US. The TX "yes, ma'am" is fine as an acknowledgement that he understands his responsibility the interaction.

"No worries" sounds fine from Australians, but from other Americans, it only sounds unforced to me in response to an apology (such as for being late).

Yup. I grew up in CT with parents from MA, and it took me quite a while after moving to NC to get used to the idea that people were speaking without a hint of sarcasm or irony when using sir and ma'am outside of customer service/trying to get a stranger's attention. I was raised to say "yes, please,"/"no, thank you," or "yes, I did,"/"no, I didn't," or whatever. My mom might well have slapped me if I had called answered with "yes, ma'am": she would've rightly assumed I was accusing her of being obnoxious, because there is no courteous reason a New Englander would use sir/ma'am to a family member.  After 20 years in the South, I can ma'am a bit and am no longer taken aback by receiving it, but I don't think I've used "yes, sir." At least we're in an area with a lot of other transplants.

Yes, after a year here it's not longer a knife stabbed in my heart to hear someone call me Ma'am.  My cousin moved here from NM 15 years ago and she said it took her about a year too. My step-dad is from Norfolk, VA, so I was aware of Ma'am not being a sarcastic or being considered old response before I got here.  I still had to freeze a smile on my face while I told myself over and over "They're being nice. They're being nice." They're bring nice."

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm not talking about quirks.  I'm talking about sociologically studied norms.  You might want to read up on the 11 different regional cultures in the US as studies by sociologists so you better understand the differences between quirks and general norms.  Yes, The South is notably behind current social norms from the US and they have been based on their differing values systems. This is a fact.  Slavery wasn't outlawed as quickly, civil rights laws weren't respected until relatively recently, inter-racial marriage legalized , diversification of wedding and funeral norms, diversification of different branches of Christianity, etc. There weren't innovative educational changes or technological changes coming from The South much either because innovation and change are not highly valued by most people steeped in Southern culture.   Changes, social, religious, cultural, technological, educational, happen much faster in parts of the country where traditionalism ("This is the way WE'VE always done it here..." ) is not valued, and is often discouraged.  So the rest of the US has, for the most part, dropped honorifics like Mr. and Mrs. and Ma'am and Sir.  The South has not.  This is not the same as calling someone backward. It's a fact that change happens more slowly here.  That's relevant to this discussion, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. The only people offended by comparison and contrast are people who highly value conformity.  People who value diversity see difference as neutral and find discussing the pros and cons valuable.

I could say so many things in response to this, but I am going to refrain. I will say, however, that my taking offense has little to do with my not valuing diversity or with my being "uncomfortable." 

[ktgrok]

Given that sir and ma'am are used for people younger than you as well as older, and even with children, and with those of lower status professionally, etc etc, I'm not sure we can say that it's use is tied to authoritarian systems or a lack of embracing democracy, etc. It's just a social nicety, same as "please" and "thank you". 

As to those not in the south, did y'all not grow up watching Andy Griffith? Enough Sirs and Ma'ams in there that I'd think it would be a cultural thing others understood, even if they didn't practice it. But maybe I'm overestimating the popularity of the show, lol. I still watch reruns from time to time. 

[marbel]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

<snip>

2. As we have seen on the board here, it's only used in a negative way outside The South, so shouldn't people who are no longer in The South adjust accordingly? 

<snip>

I don't believe this is necessarily true. I live in the mid-atlantic, and I hear it in positive/neutral way here.  Outside of this board, I would never have known that it is considered rude in any part of the US. I was not surprised to learn it, though, because I know there are a lot of regional differences in the way people communicate across the US. It's also used in the military which of course is not regional at all. Overall I'd say my own exposure to sir and ma'am over my lifetime shows to me that they are positive terms. I have never lived in the south, though I have visited.

As for people from the South adjusting accordingly:  it was a student/teacher interaction. The teacher is the adult responsible for managing the interaction and seeing that kids get off to a good start on the first freaking day of high school. She could easily have said "So, Tim, are you from around here? No?  Oh, where are you from?  OK, let me tell you something, around here people don't use Ma'am and Sir the way you are used to.  It's not a sign of respect.  So, you'd do well to drop that habit, OK?" All said in a conversational tone.  No sending to the office, no pastoral intervention (what the hell?) needed.   No needing to hear an accent, for crying out loud.  

It's really all about assuming the best about people, rather than the worst. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by marbel

[frogger]

On 8/8/2019 at 10:32 AM, maize said:

I was in the military, so do see ma'am and sir as terms of respect. 

 

This is why I'm completely baffled at the prickly ma'am responses. I was being called ma'am by the time I was 20 because base living. I've only lived in California, Washington, and Alaska and spent time a lot of time on my grandparent's ranch (admittedly they hung with an older generation) in Arizona and never heard of ma'am being anything but respectful. 

My children's martial arts studio request no tell them to use "Yes, ma'am" and "Yes, sir". 

 

Doesn't every state in the US have military posts? How could something so ingrained in our military be so offensive to the rest of the population?

[Tanaqui]

Fun fact, there are more people incarcerated in the US than in the military. That is, you are more likely to know or be related to somebody who is imprisoned than somebody who is a member of the armed forces. And yet, neither group has *that* big an impact on the general culture.

[SquirrellyMama]

20 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Imagine someone plenty old enough to have manners barging in front of you through a doorway in a way that would have been acceptable enough had they thanked you, but they completely ignored your existence instead, and you've said "you're welcome" in a very disapproving voice as a way of reminding them they've omitted their part of the social contract.

My mother was very good at this. lol

My dad does this. It is so embarrassingly rude!

[SquirrellyMama]

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I wasn't there, so I don't have detailed knowledge of the situation, which left me with questions:

1. Was this one of the people from The South without a drawl?  Moving here to NC I was surprised by how many younger people (Gen X and younger)  born and raised here have no accent. I expected it with the youngest two generations, not as much with Gen X. My cousin (40 years old) and her kids (4-14) have almost no Maine accent at all in spite of being born and raised there. You only hear it if they're really excited about something with a few words here and there.   If that's the case, the teacher with a new freshman who has no regional Southern accent might not have even know he was from somewhere else.  All the kids the first day of their freshman year are new to the high school teachers.

When I've heard "Yes, ma'am" as an insult, it was generally said with a sarcastic tone. The teacher didn't notice that? I don't like the word ma'am, but I would hope I could distinguish between sarcasm and genuine word usage.

2. As we have seen on the board here, it's only used in a negative way outside The South, so shouldn't people who are no longer in The South adjust accordingly? If not, why not? (These are not rhetorical questions.  I'm interested in discussing different takes on it.)  And how is it that Southerners don't know that this everything from abnormal-rude nation wide? Do they not notice on TV, in movies, in books, etc. that people who aren't from The South never use it?   What assumptions are they making about people who don't use it? Are they assuming people everywhere else are just raised to be rude? Are they willing to accept the fact that it's offensive some places or are they insisting that because it isn't offensive where they come from that people outside The South should ignore their own cultural norms if a Southerner lets it slip outside The South?  In other words, can any of us have it both ways?

If you've been raised to speak a certain way, you don't automatically change it when you move.  I can't imagine moving to the South and changing my word usage, honestly. I'm probably not going to start calling people ma'am and sir after 44 years of living in the Midwest. But, I don't automatically think someone saying ma'am is being offensive. It is the term used in stores around here when you don't know someone's name.

3. What do we do about the homogenization of America? I looked up the stats that 50% of people in NC were not born here.  They're transplants.  Between my neighborhood, church, women's group and homeschool circles I see that at least 50% of people in those circles are from all over the US.  It's higher at church and the homeschool group.  When the majority population is no longer Southern, is it even realistic to expect Southern culture to remain the same?  Why? That's not how cultures work.  Cultures change based on the values of the people in the culture. One of the situations this has created is the outrage about statues to Civil War soldiers on taxpayer funded places. Another is the demand for charter schools. Another is changes in weddings and death rituals. The internet is also a huge factor-it's the pipe line of very different, often contradictory ideas made accessible to everyone. Things are changing right now, not just for the characters on Downton Abbey.  What are people deciding to do about that change and why?

Change is always hard, no matter how small. Things do eventually change, though. I'm sure it is even harder if you've lived in the same place for your whole life. Especially, somewhere like the southern US. That's not a knock on the South, I promise.

 

 

[SquirrellyMama]

17 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Fun fact, there are more people incarcerated in the US than in the military. That is, you are more likely to know or be related to somebody who is imprisoned than somebody who is a member of the armed forces. And yet, neither group has *that* big an impact on the general culture.

I'm sure this is true, but I do know more military than incarcerated. Is this currently incarcerated or have been incarcerated? Current military vs have been in the military? If it is current, I know more military. If it is have been, I guess I might know more people who have been in jail. I don't know anyone's incarceration history so I don't know. I might be surprised to find out.

Interesting...

Kelly

[frogger]

46 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Fun fact, there are more people incarcerated in the US than in the military. That is, you are more likely to know or be related to somebody who is imprisoned than somebody who is a member of the armed forces. And yet, neither group has *that* big an impact on the general culture.

 

That may be true but you'd think civilians could have a little respect too that not everyone is like them.

 

It's fascinating to me that this has become a bash on the South when I've never lived in the South.

Edited August 9, 2019 by frogger

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I wasn't there, so I don't have detailed knowledge of the situation, which left me with questions:

1. Was this one of the people from The South without a drawl?  Moving here to NC I was surprised by how many younger people (Gen X and younger)  born and raised here have no accent. I expected it with the youngest two generations, not as much with Gen X. My cousin (40 years old) and her kids (4-14) have almost no Maine accent at all in spite of being born and raised there. You only hear it if they're really excited about something with a few words here and there.   If that's the case, the teacher with a new freshman who has no regional Southern accent might not have even know he was from somewhere else.  All the kids the first day of their freshman year are new to the high school teachers.

2. As we have seen on the board here, it's only used in a negative way outside The South, so shouldn't people who are no longer in The South adjust accordingly? If not, why not? (These are not rhetorical questions.  I'm interested in discussing different takes on it.)  And how is it that Southerners don't know that this everything from abnormal-rude nation wide? Do they not notice on TV, in movies, in books, etc. that people who aren't from The South never use it?   What assumptions are they making about people who don't use it? Are they assuming people everywhere else are just raised to be rude? Are they willing to accept the fact that it's offensive some places or are they insisting that because it isn't offensive where they come from that people outside The South should ignore their own cultural norms if a Southerner lets it slip outside The South?  In other words, can any of us have it both ways?

3. What do we do about the homogenization of America? I looked up the stats that 50% of people in NC were not born here.  They're transplants.  Between my neighborhood, church, women's group and homeschool circles I see that at least 50% of people in those circles are from all over the US.  It's higher at church and the homeschool group.  When the majority population is no longer Southern, is it even realistic to expect Southern culture to remain the same?  Why? That's not how cultures work.  Cultures change based on the values of the people in the culture. One of the situations this has created is the outrage about statues to Civil War soldiers on taxpayer funded places. Another is the demand for charter schools. Another is changes in weddings and death rituals. The internet is also a huge factor-it's the pipe line of very different, often contradictory ideas made accessible to everyone. Things are changing right now, not just for the characters on Downton Abbey.  What are people deciding to do about that change and why?

My guess would be saying 'ma'am and sir'  is like breathing to kids from the south. So it would take some self discipline to not say it.

[Tanaqui]

1. I just pulled the current numbers for both from google.

2. Civilians do have that respect! But they have to be told that an issue exists. If the only context you have for ma'am/sir is either a. sarcasm or b. somebody in uniform, then when you hear it from somebody not in uniform you will assume that it must be type a. Unless, of course, you've been told that some people are a hitherto unknown type c. But if you don't even know that type c exists, how can you respect them?

And this happens all over the place in all sorts of areas. You only notice when you're the one getting the surprisingly unpleasant reaction.

[Scarlett]

I went through a fast food drive through today....lady behind the speaker said, 'That will be $6.89.'  I said, 'thank you.'  And she said, 'no problem.'  LOL  I almost burst out laughing.

[frogger]

7 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

1. I just pulled the current numbers for both from google.

2. Civilians do have that respect! But they have to be told that an issue exists. If the only context you have for ma'am/sir is either a. sarcasm or b. somebody in uniform, then when you hear it from somebody not in uniform you will assume that it must be type a. Unless, of course, you've been told that some people are a hitherto unknown type c. But if you don't even know that type c exists, how can you respect them?

And this happens all over the place in all sorts of areas. You only notice when you're the one getting the surprisingly unpleasant reaction.

 

Yes, that makes sense. Honestly, I just think the attitude in this thread is not particularly understanding. If I knew someone didn't like to be called ma'am I would try not to use it.  I'm all for cultural differences etc. 

 

I just find it baffling as someone who has heard ma'am a lot, even when not on or near bases and have always heard and said it in a respectful way that the entire US but the South feels exacatly as she does. I have heard the sarcastic tone before but that was obvious and different. 

 

The thing is, I have never ever lived in the South so the one poster attacking the South specifically is coming across as super rude which I find ironic.

Edited August 9, 2019 by frogger

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Yes, that makes sense. Honestly, I just think the attitude in this thread is not particularly understanding. If I knew someone didn't like to be called ma'am I would try not to use it.  I'm all for cultural differences etc. 

 

I just find it baffling as someone who has heard ma'am a lot, even when not on or near bases and have always heard and said it in a respectful way that the entire US but the South feels exacatly as she does. I have heard the sarcastic tone before but that was obvious and different. 

 

The thing is, I have never ever lived in the South so the one poster attacking the South specifically is coming across as super rude which I find ironic.

Things are different in the south for sure.  But like Katie said I don't think they are stuck in some hierarchy...i think it is just different.   

[frogger]

It just donned on me that I've heard "miss" used offensively more than "ma'am".  I'm not sure where that comes from.

 I'm never sure where language arrives up here. The valley I grew up was colonised by mid-westerners but my family migrated from western Pennsylvania. 

[marbel]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

<snip>

And how is it that Southerners don't know that this everything from abnormal-rude nation wide? Do they not notice on TV, in movies, in books, etc. that people who aren't from The South never use it?   What assumptions are they making about people who don't use it? Are they assuming people everywhere else are just raised to be rude?

<snip>

They probably don't. People don't notice what isn't  there.  

(Though, I guess I do notice in current movies an absence of profanity, because it's so common. But that's not really the same thing.)

Are they willing to accept the fact that it's offensive some places or are they insisting that because it isn't offensive where they come from that people outside The South should ignore their own cultural norms if a Southerner lets it slip outside The South?  In other words, can any of us have it both ways?

Are people from places where it is offensive willing to accept the fact that it's not offensive everywhere and in a mobile society where people move around, someone sometime is going to slip into what's normal/typical for where they have lived?  

[Annie G]

Raised in Georgia but spent the past 27 years living on the IL/WI border.  A few times I have had people ask why I said ma’am or sir to them and I just said I was raised in the south and it’s a sign of respect. Never had anyone seem to get upset about having it said to them.  I think in context people know whether you’re being polite or snarky.  My intentions are good so if people are upset it’s their choice to be offended.  

‘Having said that, we moved back to Georgia a few months ago and it’s not as common to hear sir or ma’am as it used to be, even from people who seem to be locals (evidenced by accent). So things are definitely changing. 

Our grands were born here and are not being taught to automatically say sir/ma’am.