Bad well-visit for dd....

[Lacie]

 

I'm so sorry for you and your dd. I would be contacting someone to get some advice on how to handle things: another doctor or therapist and a lawyer, that doctor's supervisor or the police.

 

My son's both get checked over 'down there' when they have a well check. But it is very quick and usually just a peek. Once they touched to make sure everything was descended properly. And they have been naked (from the waist down) to have their hip movements examined, once at about 6 months of age or so.

 

I don't know what that doctor was thinking. You need to make sure that someone knows about your experience so that it doesn't happen to any other girls.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2008 by Lacie

[Pamela H in Texas]

My kids get excellent medical care and never once did DD have "a very THOROUGH exam of her private parts".

 

I want to agree here. Though my daughter DID end up with a more thorough exam at that age (spotting/precocious puberty), I would think it to be outside of normal. I also would not have allowed it without significant proof it was necessary (which I doubt).

[Doran]

All the drs. in this practice check private parts, even the female ones. Among the female peds., some of them check thoroughly, too. Some more than others. My nieces stopped going to this practice for this reason. One niece refused to get undressed so they would not see her as a patient anymore. So my dd has been PEEKED at before by her regular doctor. This was one reason she had for being uncomfortable going in. I also did not tell this dr. that she didn't want her private parts looked at before she was examined.

 

Before reading you super-supportive responses that nearly made me cry, I thought all peds. everywhere make you undress and check your kids private parts to one degree or another. Now that I know this isn't the case, I'm going to check around in our area to see what alternatives I have.

 

Thanks again! I felt like cracking up before your posts.

 

 

It may be that they have missed cases of sexual abuse or abnormal development which they are trying to prevent from happening again (I have a vague recollection of the story of a pubescent girl here, someone's daughter, who was undergoing surgery for physical abnormalities which were causing her terrific discomfort after the onset of menses, but no one knew about it beforehand), but...

 

...what you describe sounds highly unusual. Our girls, 12 and 14, have never had more than a quick peek. Ever. And, we've been to more than one group and seen both male and female physicians. At a *minimum* I would want an explanation from the head of the practice, or from the attending physician. A written letter copied to the proper authorities will guard against the risk of malpractice across the board.

 

Again, I'm sorry. Hugs to you both!

[Kris]

Dd 6 is afraid of going to the doctor. She doesn't like her "private parts to be looked at by a stranger," she says. Today we had an appointment with a different doctor in the practice. She wouldn't take off her clothes so it started off badly. Fortunately, the dr. was willing to go with the flow. He was able to cheer her up a bit...and then...with her on my lap, he pulled down her pants and gave her a very THOROUGH exam of her private parts. I was surprised by it, and she was totally humiliated. She didn't hesitate to show how upset she was. It was obvious she was unhappy. She is usually a happy child though intense. The dr. interpreted her behavior as being related to homeschooling and being somehow unsocialized. She feels violated--understandably so, IMO--and has been having meltdowns today. I'm unhappy about her behavior, and also distressed at what the dr. did and his interpretation of her behavior as being related to homeschooling. I don't know if I'll ever get her into a dr. again...much less get through today...

 

We are a Catholic family and we are modest about dress, but matter-of-fact about body parts. Dd usually thinks or rear-ends as a funny topic so I have no explanation as to why she's so sensitive about medical check-ups. This time, however, I think her feelings, afterwards at least, are reasonable given how she was examined.

 

Would anyone like to offer some support as I struggle through the aftermath of this well-check? :crying:

 

What the ??!!??!!

[Annie Laurie]

I haven't read all of the replies, but really wanted to say that if I were in that situation, I would be most concerned with your dd's feeling of being violated- that is a huge thing, and it's no less important because she is 6, then it would be for an older female feeling that way. It needs to be addresssed.

 

Tbh, it deeply bothers me that she expressed worry about the dr looking at her private parts, and then her feelings were disregarded and it was done anyway. I don't think it matters what age a child is, their body and body space should always be respected. I would have been very clear with the Dr. that dd was worried about this and that I wanted to reassure her that this wasn't going to happen during the dr's visit- then if the dr said he it was part of his check-up I would have asked why and said I wanted to skip that part. If he insisted, I would have left with my dd. Pulling down her pants and doing that without her permission, is absolutely wrong; I don't care what age she is.

 

My dd needed to have her bottom looked at last year for a medical reason, I took her in myself because of that. BUT I talked to dd beforehand about why and what would happen and asked her how she felt about it. She understood why but really wanted a female to look at her, so I explained the situation to her (male) dr and he completely respected that and stepped out of the room while the female nurse practitioner looked at her. Dd felt completely in control of the situation and that her needs were respected. The nurse asked dd permission first and explained what she would do beforehand so dd would know what to expect. This was a special situation, our pediatrician does not look at the kids' genitals during regular well exams. When there is a medical reason for doing so, there are ways to do it without demeaning the child and disregarding their feelings. I would never take my childrer to that doctor again, personally.

[Kris]

I haven't read all of the replies, but really wanted to say that if I were in that situation, I would be most concerned with your dd's feeling of being violated- that is a huge thing, and it's no less important because she is 6, then it would be for an older female feeling that way. It needs to be addresssed.

 

Tbh, it deeply bothers me that she expressed worry about the dr looking at her private parts, and then her feelings were disregarded and it was done anyway.

 

Absolutely! What is the point of trying to teach our kids to protect themselves and go with their feelings in these matters -- i.e., I don't LIKE that! -- and then go ahead and do it anyway?! "Well, it's not okay for *that* guy to do it, but it's okay for *this* guy?" Talk about confusing! Good grief!

 

I would be absolutely livid if something like this happened to my daughter and everyone within a ten mile radius would know about it right then. *Then* the fun would *really* start.

[AuntieM]

I agree with ithers that you should report this guy and paper trail the whole thing. BUT FIRST I would go to that office and request a copy of all your medical records. A clean copy that you can have on hand before any retaliatory additions may be made. Then I would write that sucker up. Stay rational, stay calm, but be firm. If that guy did that to my daughter....well, remember that homeschool dad that shot the intruder....??? I may have reacted with a similar immediate action! (Not a shot, of course, but in his face, indeed!).

 

Ask around in your homeschooling circles to find a new doc that is homeschool friendly and female. Take dd for a meet-n-greet. Hand carry those files in to your appointment, don't even ask for a records transfer from your previous office.

 

In your shoes, I would do as others have said, apologize to your dear daughter, promise future protection, assure her of no recurrences but let her know that in the future, she will be expected to cooperate at exams. Just be sure her first couple of new doc visits are very friendly and nonthreatening.

 

I am SO sorry you have to deal with this! I remember the time I had to get a diving physical. The guy, at the very end of the exam, told me I had to have a rectal!!! I was FURIOUS but finally submitted because I thought he might not clear me for diving (which could create a problem with my job), but only after making sure there were 2 nurses in the room to observe. Later I went over my supervisor's head to the dive officer and found that this was not at all necessary. I felt totally violated.

[Laura K (NC)]

Little girls naturally don't want to be exposed like that. I would think a doctor should be more concerned that a little girl would WANT to expose herself, than want to keep what naturally should be hidden, hidden.

 

What a world we are coming to.

:banghead:

[Melissa in Australia]

I have NEVER heard of a doctor doing this at all. the first time I was examined by a doctor was a few weeks before delivering my first baby.

I have never taken my children to the doctor for a well check. I only go to the doctor when someone is sick. even when one of my children had a bladder infection, they weren't examined. they just had to provide a urine sample.

[Mom0012]

I would be furious. It almost seems as though maybe he was annoyed with her behavior, so he decided to show he was in control of the situation. I definitely think it was a violation.

 

Lisa

[Alphabetika]

Well, if any other adult did what this doctor did, would you consider it reportable abuse? If so, why should a doctor be allowed to do so just because he's a doctor? I agree that someone in authority should be notified, and you should not see this pediatrician again.

[Quad Shot Academy]

One niece refused to get undressed so they would not see her as a patient anymore.

 

I agree with most of what has been said, but I also wanted to add that this is a sign of control. Doctors are there to serve you, not for you to blindly do what they say. The fact that they would kick a child out of their practice for not wearing a gown shows how they view patients. There are also doctors that will kick you out of their practice for choosing to skip one single vaccine, not take the prescription they wrote you . . . I check carefully for practices that have such viewpoints. I want a doctor who will be my partner in MY health, not a so called God. The whole gown thing is arrogance. I refuse to wear the gowns and have never had my children wear them (except for surgery) and I have never been scoffed at. I have always been respected. (I plan ahead and just have them/me wear loose fitting clothes.)

 

Being someone who has been involved in a medical dispute about a child and had something very nasty written about me in their chart, I would first find a new doctor, get their medical records, read them yourself to make sure nothing negative was written about you or your daughter before you give them to the new doctor and then I would write a succinct letter to the offending doctor and to the head of the practice explaining why you left.

[Holly in FL]

I haven't read the other replies... But, I'm horrified that the doc would associate not being comfortable with have her private area looked at by a stranger (I don't care that he's a doc!)...with not being socialized. That "logic" implies that children that are *socialized* in the public school system are okay with a stranger doing the same.

 

I'm sorry...but, that makes no sense to me.

 

~Holly

[Twinmom]

My first, gut reaction (take it or leave it...I may be wrong!) was that the comments about home schooling were designed to intimidate you and shut you up. Why would he need to do that? Well, because he knew your child felt scared and traumatized and he needed a reason beyond his own behavior.

 

For the doctor to do such a "thorough" exam on a child who is frightened is abuse, IMO. If he suspected abuse or a physical problem, he should have called in a female nurse to conduct the exam or at least to witness it. To subject her to that when she is obviously terrified goes beyond inappropriate and crosses the line into negligence at best and abuse at worst.

 

As both a mom and a social worker, I'd be reporting that doctor ASAP. I also agree with Joanne when she says that it is possible the doctor suspected abuse because of your home schooling and was potentially investigating YOU (even if that was the case, I still think HE was abusive!). Protect yourself by reporting him...start with getting those records, then report him to the head of the practice, then go on to either the medical board or CPS if you do not receive satisfaction.

 

Then run, don't walk, to another practice. I would not ever bring my daughter back to that practice if I were in your shoes.

[jamnkats]

I am absolutely outraged for you and your daughter. Of course she's upset - she was assaulted and violated!

 

I agree with everyone who advocated for you and your daughter and especially that you apologise to your daughter, assure her you'll not let it happen again and that you'll find someone who will not violate her. Can you imagine if a doctor did that to YOU?

 

Get your daughter's medical records first thing tomorrow, make a complaint, and sue his pants off. I am absolutely appalled at his actions!

[katilac]

Absolutely! What is the point of trying to teach our kids to protect themselves and go with their feelings in these matters -- i.e., I don't LIKE that! -- and then go ahead and do it anyway?! "Well, it's not okay for *that* guy to do it, but it's okay for *this* guy?" Talk about confusing! Good grief!

 

Except that kids DO have to understand that it's not okay for 'that' guy to do it, but it is okay for 'this' guy to do it. There are times when a doctor MUST examine their private parts (or mom, or dad). I do not think this visit was a time when it had to occur, but yes, if there's a potential medical problem, they have to be examined no matter what their feelings might be.

[Blessedfamily]

Get the records before you tip them off that you're upset. Protect yourself. He obviously has a skewed mage of homeschoolers and who knows what he was trying to prove.

[Kris]

Except that kids DO have to understand that it's not okay for 'that' guy to do it, but it is okay for 'this' guy to do it. There are times when a doctor MUST examine their private parts (or mom, or dad). I do not think this visit was a time when it had to occur, but yes, if there's a potential medical problem, they have to be examined no matter what their feelings might be.

 

The situation the OP described does nothing to teach a child that a doctor is to be trusted in that kind of situation -- or ANY situation, as a matter of fact. I would imagine that if it were necessary, both the doctor and her mother would have been able to explain that to her and proceed accordingly with her consent. In this instance, it was *not* necessary and this girl was violated despite her feelings on the matter. What has she learned now?

[Catherine]

am not a pediatrician, though. I am not here to totally defend your daughter's doctor, but what I will say is that: 1) I am wondering what is "thorough"-and 2) to point out that my own kids have shown mild discomfort at having their private parts examined by their doctor.

 

You were there when this happened, yes? Did you, with your own eyes, see the doctor do anything that YOU thought was wrong, or was your post prompted by your unhappiness at your daughter's discomfort?

 

I am asking for clarification because I KNOW firsthand that a careful physical examination is absolutely essential for finding all kinds of problems. Even well child checks, IMO, should include an external genital exam. And few normal 6 year olds will find this easy or comfortable. It is not true that this is not necessary, but many pediatricians skip it because patients and their parents find it uncomfortable and they'd rather not bother.

 

At the very least, I'd encourage you to discuss your discomfort with the doctor before notifying authorities. I also think as other posters have pointed out, it is very important for you to validate your little girl's feelings and experience and reassure her (if you can do so truthfully) that you were there to protect her, that you saw nothing inappropriate, and that her discomfort is understandable and normal.

 

I have warned my boys and even role-played a physical exam (not the naked part!) so that they know what to expect and will not be taken by surprised by the doctor's exam. I would encourage anyone to do that, and reinforce it with a message about appropriate touching. I also make sure that they know that no person should be touching them if I am not there in the room.

 

OK, fire away.

[SonshineLearner]

Were you there for a specific problem, and there is a real reason for this? I guess I don't know since I don't do well child visits. We're at the doctor's office enough for them to be "listened to" (heart etc.) and I haven't really had a well dr visit for my son in the last few years. I guess I'm not educated enough to understand why a 6 yr old needs to be looked at, although perhaps with this thread, I'll become more informed. :-)

[Demal]

My kids' pediatrician is a professor of pediatrics and internal medicine, former chair of pediatrics, and now dean of medical education at a university medical center. My kids have not had their genitals examined at a well-child visit since they were babies.

[Remudamom]

I never heard of such a thing. Really, no doc ever did that to mine.

[dtsmamtj]

None of mine past being an infant (and I think only one time EACH at that point) have they ever looked at their private areas. I just took my 4.5 and he did his thorough exam with all of her clothes still on (she has a heart condition that requires yearly check-ups before seing the cardiologist).

 

T

[Gretchen in NJ]

Dd 6 is afraid of going to the doctor. She doesn't like her "private parts to be looked at by a stranger," she says. Today we had an appointment with a different doctor in the practice. She wouldn't take off her clothes so it started off badly. Fortunately, the dr. was willing to go with the flow. He was able to cheer her up a bit...and then...with her on my lap, he pulled down her pants and gave her a very THOROUGH exam of her private parts. I was surprised by it, and she was totally humiliated. She didn't hesitate to show how upset she was. It was obvious she was unhappy. She is usually a happy child though intense. The dr. interpreted her behavior as being related to homeschooling and being somehow unsocialized. She feels violated--understandably so, IMO--and has been having meltdowns today. I'm unhappy about her behavior, and also distressed at what the dr. did and his interpretation of her behavior as being related to homeschooling. I don't know if I'll ever get her into a dr. again...much less get through today...

 

We are a Catholic family and we are modest about dress, but matter-of-fact about body parts. Dd usually thinks or rear-ends as a funny topic so I have no explanation as to why she's so sensitive about medical check-ups. This time, however, I think her feelings, afterwards at least, are reasonable given how she was examined.

 

Would anyone like to offer some support as I struggle through the aftermath of this well-check? :crying:

 

They (your daughters feelings) are very reasonable. There is no reason at all why a doctor should have gone anywhere near her private parts. My dd is 10 and has never had that happen.

 

The only reason a doctor goes in that area for a child that young is to check to see if she is being sexually abused.

 

Your daughter was touched on her private parts against her will. What does that sound like to you?

 

I am sorry if I seem harsh, but I am very upset to have read this. I find it very disturbing that a doctor would treat a child like that. It was abusive.:(

[Gretchen in NJ]

I would be furious. It almost seems as though maybe he was annoyed with her behavior, so he decided to show he was in control of the situation. I definitely think it was a violation.

 

Lisa

 

I am furious and it is not even my child. I would report the doctor and file charges.

[Johanna]

Oh My Goodness! your poor dd! I would be furious! Our doctors have never done any more than a quick peek. THat seems really scarry that he was "thorough" as you say....then to malicously say that her "embarassment" had to do with homeschooling. What in the world!!! I would not write a letter, I would phone them immediately!!

IT just isnt right in allll ways!!

I feel for you, because my dd is always embarrased by the doctor as well....so, she sees a woman ped to help her. I totally remember feeling embarrassed to get undressed. I still cant believe he was doing such a thorough check of her private parts! That is just creepy! it should be just a peek!

[Johanna]

yes, definitely get a different doctor! I just dont see the point to be so thorough if there are no specific complaints....

to me, its terrorizing the child!

Its certainly not your fault! Just a wierd practice!

[Donna]

I agree with the others. My dd (6 yo) has not had a MD look at her private parts since she was a baby. She would have had the same reaction as your dd if she had. Our pediatrician always explains everything he is going to do and why as he examines the kids and has examined the boys for hernias and such but never made the kids remove their underwear during an examination.

[EKS]

You know, when I was about your daughter's age a doctor did a very thorough exam and it really freaked me out. I don't think I ever told my mother that it upset me, but I can remember being relieved when we stopped seeing that doctor soon after.

[kalanamak]

 

I am asking for clarification because I KNOW firsthand that a careful physical examination is absolutely essential for finding all kinds of problems. Even well child checks, IMO, should include an external genital exam. And few normal 6 year olds will find this easy or comfortable. It is not true that this is not necessary, but many pediatricians skip it because patients and their parents find it uncomfortable and they'd rather not bother.

 

 

And we doctors periodically get volleys of editorials lamenting our lack of thoroughness. We also gets sued if we "miss something". I dread doing these exams (I do them on adults) but I bite my lip and ask unless I get very upset vibes that indicate it would be "counter theraputic" (upset the patient so much we have ruined the relationship) to even ask.

 

"Thorough", on a female, means speculum and bimanual exam. A peek at spread legs to see, e.g., an imperforate hymen or a look at the anal verge for signs of worms is not "thorough".

 

My male 6 year old gets checked down there.

 

I encourage you to change docs if you like, or just be up front on the next exam: no genital exam. I think calling the police or complaining to the board of Peds, etc. will get you no where.

 

And honestly, the tone of the replies is an example of why I went into adult medicine. I am terrified of parents. My fear would make me second guess doing what I thought was right, and therefore make me a bad doc.

[clarkacademy]

I am in no way making light this is a bad situation but do you possibly think maybe since she reacted so scared he felt there may be a problem?? I mean Dr.'s are taught to look for that type of behavior so do you think that just maybe he had concern? I would freak over the remarks though as well.

[Pink Fairy]

I can only say that my children's ped does do a quick check of the genitalia, but he always asks permission (mine and child's) and explains that no one has the right to touch them there without their permission. I can't imagine him doing what you described, unless there was a medical need, and even then I think he wouldn't have gone about it in such an intimidating, insulting way. I don't know that your doctor did anything illegal, but he does sound like a jerk. Certainly you need to find a practice where you and your children will be respected, and I'd write a letter to let them know why you're leaving. :grouphug:

[Blessedfamily]

And we doctors periodically get volleys of editorials lamenting our lack of thoroughness. We also gets sued if we "miss something". I dread doing these exams (I do them on adults) but I bite my lip and ask unless I get very upset vibes that indicate it would be "counter theraputic" (upset the patient so much we have ruined the relationship) to even ask.

 

"Thorough", on a female, means speculum and bimanual exam. A peek at spread legs to see, e.g., an imperforate hymen or a look at the anal verge for signs of worms is not "thorough".

 

My male 6 year old gets checked down there.

 

I encourage you to change docs if you like, or just be up front on the next exam: no genital exam. I think calling the police or complaining to the board of Peds, etc. will get you no where.

 

And honestly, the tone of the replies is an example of why I went into adult medicine. I am terrified of parents. My fear would make me second guess doing what I thought was right, and therefore make me a bad doc.

 

Respectfully (I mean that) in response to the two doctors....

 

I'm not firing away because I respect all view points. However, I would be uneasy with a doctor's motives if he expressed a view that homeschooling= unsocialized= a negative reaction to an exam, as if he's never seen any other 6 year old who was uncomfortable with having their privates examined. I'm sure he's seen it before. I would have asked him what homeschooling has to do with anything.

 

My ped. gives a brief look, but she says the American Academy Of Pediatrics says to respect a child's modesty. She does it(respects them), and she reminds parents to do the same.

 

She asked my 4yo if it was o.k "since Mom and Dad are in the room." My 4yo was fine and looked over at me and her dad and said "She's checking my hind parts, Mom." No problem. But if she had objected, nothing would have been done. Especially if the mother objected in any way.

 

I don't know what the conversation was, but if the mother and child objected you(general you) don't do it. Then you make a note in the chart that they refused that part of the exam to cover yourself. Same thing they do when people refuse vaccines.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Blessedfamily

[Catherine]

It is also completely wrong, IMO, if the doc actually voiced some comment that connected OP's daughter's discomfort with being an unsocialized homeschooler! I couldn't honestly tell from her written post if he verbalized that, or gave that impression.

 

I will say though, that there is much I am unsure about as far as the OP. Discomfort, expressed by shyness, IMO is probably pretty normal for this age group. Fear, severe discomfort, I think should be respected and noted as Kalanmak points out. But as I said in my first post, I think some mild embaressment or discomfort is probably pretty normal. *I* am embaressed and uncomfortable when I get examined there.

[kalanamak]

I would be uneasy with a doctor's motives if he expressed a view that homeschooling= unsocialized= a negative reaction to an exam, as if he's never seen any other 6 year old who was uncomfortable with having their privates examined.

 

.

 

I don't know how most peds feel about homeschooling. Mine is against it in general, but thinks it is okay for me to do it because he, I assume, feels I am capable. I'm sure he has seen mothers that make you gasp to hear they homeschool (I know this because I have, too), however, I've gasped over the bad grammar of teachers as well, and therefore don't come down against homeschooling.

 

I have my ped for medical problems, esp. very serious ones that are out of my league. I haven't really needed him, but I go to the well child ones so he'll "know" us if we ever met over a serious problem. That he opposes homeschooling for the masses doesn't trouble me, nor his comments, because my son takes my lead on things. If his stance bothered me and I had the time and energy to research another one, I'd leave, but I am neither bothered nor full of energy, and hence just mention to my son "Hah! someone who doesn't know about homeschooling" in the car as we go away.

 

That all said, the boorish comment about hs is, to me, more way offensive than a genital exam, but I do have a rather mechanistic (rather than spiritual) view of my and my son's bodies. Also, the best way to view a little girls parts is to have her get up on the exam table on her knees and elbows and peek that a way. At least that is how we did the rape kits on girls on the Indian Reservation I spent two months on, and the littles thought it was rather funny, and we never had a protest. (Not that I saw any rapes...usually a whole house of kids were asleep with the grown ups off listening to music and a dance, someone comes home and finds a total stranger male in the house (looking to steal something), panic ensues and a van full of girls were brought in for exam to our little ER.)

[Mommyof4ks]

 

And if being public schooled and supposedly properly socialized means my 6 yr old is comfortable being naked and poked and proded, then I'm danged happy all my kids appear to be unsocialized and homeschooled. What a stupid thing for a supposedly educated man to say.

 

end of rant.

 

:iagree:

 

We have 3 kids, and NEVER has the doc done a 'thorough' exam of private parts. My DD is 8, and she has not even been routinly looked at in that area since she was 3, because our pedi told us that if there was something wrong she would say something about itching or pain. Sure enough she did mention itching at 6, but again just a peak. He also told her that it was ok for him to look since he is a doctor and Mommy is watching what he is doing to help her feel more relaxed. Is there a family practice doc that could see her if there is not another pedi available?

 

I am sorry that y'all are having to deal with this.

[katilac]

The situation the OP described does nothing to teach a child that a doctor is to be trusted in that kind of situation -- or ANY situation, as a matter of fact. I would imagine that if it were necessary, both the doctor and her mother would have been able to explain that to her and proceed accordingly with her consent. In this instance, it was *not* necessary and this girl was violated despite her feelings on the matter. What has she learned now?

 

I agree that this situation did not help teach the child that doctors are to be trusted - - while I don't consider it abuse, I do not agree with his actions. My response was not referring to the OP specifically, but the issue of consent in general.

 

My point was two-fold: one, every child should be aware that yes, the 'okayness' of someone looking at or touching your private areas IS situational; two, you should always, always explain, but in some cases, that will not lead to the child's consent, and you will have to proceed anyway. If a medical exam is needed, it's needed, regardless of the area of the body or the child's feelings.

 

Again, I am not saying that it was needed in this case. I think the doctor showed poor judgement, but it is (unfortunately) common for doctors to take uncooperative children by surprise. I don't agree with it, but I think that going down the path of "abuse, violation, marks on his permanent record" is not only unhelpful to the child but a bit unfair to the doctor. Remember, only the parent can give or refuse legal consent; in this case, I think it's reasonable to assume that discussing the exam but not refusing it implies consent.

 

I think everyone's initial reaction to hearing "forced, detailed exam of a 6 yr old's private area" is going to be one of horror. But looking at the private area was a known part of the visit at this practice, the doctor was NOT told to not do it, and not told to stop when he pulled the child's pants down. Mom was not only in the room but actually holding the child.

 

Abuse is a very serious accusation, one that can ruin lives and careers in a heartbeat. It would be unfair, imo, to not attempt to mediate this 'off the record.' ((I do agree that getting a copy of the child's records before beginning, as someone suggested, might be a very good idea))

 

Also, my concern would be that a heated response would be more harmful than helpful to the child herself. I would sympathize with her, yes. I'd probably apologize - - "he took me by surprise, too; I didn't know he would do that." But I wouldn't encourage her to think that this was a horrific incident, or that she had been abused or violated. I would focus on, "how can we keep things like this from happening in the future?"

 

If this incident leads to a positive outcome of the doctors clarifying and improving their procedures, I think that would be tremendously empowering for a little girl who currently feels frustrated and powerless.

[WagsWife]

And we doctors periodically get volleys of editorials lamenting our lack of thoroughness. We also gets sued if we "miss something". I dread doing these exams (I do them on adults) but I bite my lip and ask unless I get very upset vibes that indicate it would be "counter theraputic" (upset the patient so much we have ruined the relationship) to even ask.

 

"Thorough", on a female, means speculum and bimanual exam. A peek at spread legs to see, e.g., an imperforate hymen or a look at the anal verge for signs of worms is not "thorough".

 

My male 6 year old gets checked down there.

 

I encourage you to change docs if you like, or just be up front on the next exam: no genital exam. I think calling the police or complaining to the board of Peds, etc. will get you no where.

 

And honestly, the tone of the replies is an example of why I went into adult medicine. I am terrified of parents. My fear would make me second guess doing what I thought was right, and therefore make me a bad doc.

 

I totally understand what you are saying...however in this day and age a doctor should *never do an exam on a child's private parts without first explaining what he/she wanted to do, what was going to happen during the exam, and finally ASKING the child and the parent for permission.

 

Like my DH said when I told him about it...it sounds like the doctor is the one who is not properly socialized!

[dirty ethel rackham]

I simply don't understand why it would be standard practice. I did not have any examination of my privates (other than the deep abdomen feel for the ovaries thing) until I was 18 and that was scary enough. I cannot comprehend the need to do that to a 6 year old who does not present with problems necessitating this type of intrusive examination. DD8 had the quick look-see when she was a baby to be sure that everything was OK and nothing since!

 

I am flabberghasted! Utterly flabberghasted.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Even if he thought there might be a problem, there are sooooo many less invasive ways of getting information without resorting to this. I have a friend who is trained to deal with children who may have been abused and her job is to get information. She said that the very worst thing you can do to a child in this situation is what this doctor did. It pretty much guarantees that you will not get useful information out of the child because of the added trauma.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Modesty and desire for privacy are completely appropriate for a 6 year old. In fact that is when it is expected to start. I think my daughter, who is much less modest than your average 8 year old, would be VERY reluctant to take her pants off even with our family practice doc with whom she is very comfortable. I don't think the daughter's behavior should be a trigger. I don't even understand why a doc needs to see if puberty is progressing unless there is an expressed problem.

 

And only if there is a problem would I allow it.

[KidsHappen]

I have five dds. I have lived in at least 15 states and three countries. We have had many different family practice drs and peds and not one of my dd has ever had so much as a peek at their private parts past infancy for any well child check. Not even for a UTI, all that has ever required was a urine specimen. I can't for the life of me imagine what in the world they would possibily need to look there for. What exactly would they be checking for? Any physical abnormalities would have been discovered in infancy. If there was a complaint of some sort I am sure it would have been mentioned.

 

My natural reaction would have been to slap the dr and ask him WTH he thought he was doing. At this point, I would definitely ask for a copy of my records, find another dr and at the very least write a letter of complaint. I would also be spreading the word that this is not a child friendly practice. In my younger days I had some god-awful drs. But in the last ten years or so I have been extraordinarily blessed with some wonderful drs. Ask around I am sure there is a good one to be found. I always have better luck with DOs than MDs by the way.

[Tiramisu]

I haven't been able to get on the computer for the last couple of days. I appreciate all the response and support. I'm still upset about this. Fortunately, dd seems to have forgotten all about it.

 

Since the MD's who so kindly responded have asked about the exam, I will try to explain what happened without being graphic. Dd was unhappy, so the dr. let her sit on my lap to be examined just like he has done with my 2 yo since she was an infant. I appreciated his sensitivity. He did the regular exam stuff and really cheered her up by joking, being silly and tickling her. He pulled her lower body on to his legs with her upper body still resting against me. He and I were knee-to-knee. Then he rather suddenly, without verbal warning, pulled down her pants, put her legs up in the air, firmly spread her butt-cheeks (sorry, can't think of a better word), looked inside, then appeared to carefully examine her labia. I have seen him examine my infants in this way, minus the legs in the air. Another dd had a fusion early on in infancy so I'm familiar with this kind of exam. My objections are the way he built trust when she was scared and then did such a thing so suddenly and unexpectedly. I also don't think this kind of exam would be necessary on a six year old, especially in this position. I think a quicker peek would be sufficient for that age unless there were justifications otherwise.

 

I have emphasize that I don't think he did this because we are homeschoolers and suspected abuse. Until now, I think I have had a good repoire with him or I would not have made this appointment when our regular dr. in the practice was not available. Dd is not one who hides her feeling so when she got upset again after that check, the dr. did not equate it with his actions. Instead, he thought she was possibly depressed from not being around kids her age. (I don't have to tell you all how ridiculous this is.....) I told him she does have a temper but she is very happy and silly most of the time. He made a note in her chart about this and suggested counselling if I thought she needed it if there were a possibility of a problem.

 

I remembered after thinking about it that her dr. phobia started two winters ago when she had repeated bouts of strep throat. Everytime she went in, she would get her tonsils swabbed and it hurt her terribly. At her well-check a year ago, I asked her why she was scared and she told me this. She said, "I don't want them sticking one of those things down into my lungs again."

 

I know the practices of this practice so it's better for us to make a change, but I don't think anything criminal took place. Rather, it was an insensitive and inappropriate way to examine a six year old that I've learned from you good people is not common practice. Thank you. REALLY!

 

THE GOOD NEWS...I got a recommendation for a female ped. at a very well-regarded practice who told my friend, "If I didn't have to work, I would be homeschooling my children." She may be a single parent to adopted children. From other comments she made to my friend, I think we may be on the same wave-length as me with other things as well. I called the practice and told the receptionist about my concerns about changing from a practice that I went to as a child and always took my children to, and she suggested that I come in and meet the dr. and set up an appointment for me.

 

This incident has helped me think about what is important to us in a dr. so I think we're in a good position to start looking for someone better. Hopefully, we won't have to look too far.

 

Thank you all again for your goodness.

 

Kelli

[elizabeth]

I am the daughter of a physician and have been an attorney for 12 years. I wish that SOB lived here.That is all. His conduct was reprehensible and he needs a wake up call in the form that gets his attention and holds it .If I were his insurer or risk management advisor at the hospital where he has priviliges we would be having a talk and you would receive a written apology. This controlling and assaultive conduct spurs uneeded lawsuits and costs all of us in the end. I am truly sorry . No matter that it might have been an appropriate part of an exam the method was just an assault plain and simple...sickening

Edited November 22, 2008 by elizabeth
typo

[Cindyg]

What bothers me most about it is the surprise aspect. I just don't think the girl should have been grabbed, stripped, exposed, held, and prodded like that. (Did she scream when he did that?)

 

OP, I'm glad she seems to have forgotten it now; but there's no way to know if this will haunt her later. Anything more I can speculate or identify with would be way TMI, but I'm sure we can all imagine negative ramifications that might result from this years later.

 

It really all depends on how she perceived it. If it was just a bad moment, great. Some people can shake off bad experiences without looking back.

[Mama Bear]

I agree.

 

Your dd was violated.

 

ETA: If he's that hostile to homeschooling, I suspect he was looking for evidence of sexual abuse. That being a possibility, I'd HURRY to report him to create a CYA paper trail on you.

 

ITA. He may have thought the resistance to taking her clothes off to be indicative of something else. Who cares. I'd definitely be in touch with the head of the clinic and/or, if you know a doc, I'd maybe describe the situation and ask what they would do with the child and about the general weirdness exhibited by the doc if it were his/her child.

 

So sorry this happened -- what a way to mess with a sensitive kiddo's head! :glare:

[Joanne]

I have emphasize that I don't think he did this because we are homeschoolers and suspected abuse. Until now, I think I have had a good repoire with him or I would not have made this appointment when our regular dr. in the practice was not available. Dd is not one who hides her feeling so when she got upset again after that check, the dr. did not equate it with his actions. Instead, he thought she was possibly depressed from not being around kids her age. (I don't have to tell you all how ridiculous this is.....) I told him she does have a temper but she is very happy and silly most of the time. He made a note in her chart about this and suggested counselling if I thought she needed it if there were a possibility of a problem.

 

 

NJKelli,

 

I think you are being too kind and patient and "nice" about this. I get *livid* thinking about him assuming within normal range response to body invasion is due to "homeschooling" or "depression". I'm concerned about his perspective *and* your response; his words, his use of "depression" (somehow indicating that she should willingly accept being assualted) and the notes on the chart. Also your passive defense (she's silly and happy).

 

He pulled her lower body on to his legs with her upper body still resting against me. He and I were knee-to-knee. Then he rather suddenly, without verbal warning, pulled down her pants, put her legs up in the air, firmly spread her butt-cheeks (sorry, can't think of a better word), looked inside, then appeared to carefully examine her labia. I have seen him examine my infants in this way, minus the legs in the air. Another dd had a fusion early on in infancy so I'm familiar with this kind of exam. My objections are the way he built trust when she was scared and then did such a thing so suddenly and unexpectedly. I also don't think this kind of exam would be necessary on a six year old, especially in this position.

 

This is completely unacceptable. Totally, and without question. No person should ever do this to another person. This was not an exam; it was a violation.

[Blessedfamily]

I tried to be restrained in my previous response. Some pointed out that we didn't have all the details. The further details of how this exactly took place have disgusted me beyond measure. I don't care what protocol he was following or what reasons he had. It was done in a despicable manner.

 

I would file a complaint the second I got those records in my hand.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Blessedfamily
spelling

[Murphy101]

Many not nice, not christian thoughts come to my mind for that guy.

 

You're giving him WAY more credit than he deserves.

At best he's a grade A jerk.

At the very least he's totally lacking any professional conduct.

And the areas between there are just too upsetting to contemplate.

Thank God, you're going to another dr from now on.

[melissel]

Yes, I hate to say I'm with Joanne and Blessedfamily as well. I'm not a "sue the bast***!" type myself, but I would be filing a formal complaint and taking it as far up the chain as I could go. What he did is NOT within the realm of acceptable at all--it's a violation of a trust placed in him, in a horrible way that may or may not affect your DD for a long time. At the very least, he needs to be prevented from doing this to other children.

 

Your poor little girl. I have a sensitive DD6 myself, and this would indeed be a VERY big deal for her, for a long time. She carries this kind of stuff around inside her, tucked away.

 

You know, reading this story reminded me of a pediatrician my mom used to take me to when I was very little. I can't remember exactly why, but I was terrified of him, and would scream and cry when taken to him for any reason. I remember those feelings vividly, and I could only have been 3 or 4. Later on I talked to my mom about it, and she said he was her pediatrician when she was little, and he was the same way. (Why she kept taking me is an issue for another post, but she was very young and not very well-educated about parenting.) Since then, I've met others who went to that guy, and they tell similar stories. Yet, he was a ped in that town until well into his 60s--maybe even 70s :glare: I still get butterflies in my stomach when we drive past the house that was his old office. So those things do linger, unfortunately. I don't think I could let myself not address this.