There's a difference between the Pelagian view of salvation and the Catholic view of salvation. It was the Catholic Church, which was at the time also the Orthodox Church -- a united Christianity -- which condemned Pelagius and his teachings as unscriptural.

1. I'm not bashing. I'm redirecting the unfortunate choice of words. 2. "There's no need to bash the OP." "you are more than free to not open such threads."

Mt. 6:1-3. I think there are sometimes good reasons to "advertise" charity to inspire other people to do more, but you're right, most people don't know how much other people give. Obviously there's a terrible division between rich and poor in this world so obviously, as a whole, people (not just Christians) aren't doing enough. (I'm not advocating socialism or Marxism, because in those systems, one isn't free to give... one is forced to give.)

Assessing Christianity, he said in effect that he liked Jesus, but didn't see him in Christians. Christians were actually a stumbling block to him. Unfortunately this is the case too often, but it's hard to be good! Charity is a kind of evangelism. Jesus did plenty of good works but there was always a higher good in mind. Good works bring a kind of Kingdom of God to earth while we are here temporarily as a foretaste of heaven.

I would say that a Christian who doesn't do some form of charity like this (if he is able) isn't a Christian. And I believe Jesus said the same thing in Mt 25:31-46, especially the part about those who don't perform works of charity (when they are able) "going away to eternal punishment." (v. 46).

The post that was deleted was said to be snarky, but it was just a question why someone would admit their post was offensive, and yet post it anyway. I don't mean to offend. I'm continuing the discussion that was started on a more level ground. If we want to discuss whether salvation includes works or excludes works, that other thread, istm, pushed Catholics into a defensive posture. I want to start fresh where both parties would be on level ground. So far we have it here, since neither side is threatened.

nt

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"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." That's the wrong quote (since "fool" has since taken on a more derogatory meaning), but the idea is still the same. The more sensitive the issue, the more caution is warranted. There was a thread on being "PC" a while back. Why would anyone "not" be PC? If being "PC" merely means "fearing to tread," or having an active empathy about opinions that one doesn't personally share, or being charitable in areas about which one does not strictly know, then being PC is a pretty good thing. Prejudice needs to be addressed, but not by inviting criticism of a group about which there is already a blinding prejudice.

As long as we are talking about salvation and scripture, I'd like to hear the responses. Can we have a civil discussion about this?

But there aren't references for that kind of thing. It's a subjective question, like "Exactly HOW are atheists not good people?" The question is framed the same as the OP's. I couldn't imagine an atheist getting warm fuzzies over a question about them worded thus.

She was asking for an elaboration of prejudice, the reasons for it, how strongly it is held.

I'm not Jewish or Muslim, but if I asked a similar question of their traditions, like if I questioned whether they are monotheists, I don't think it would be any more excusable. It seems like there's an obvious answer to the question -- of course! -- but it also seems to me that there's an obvious answer to the question of whether Catholics are Christians.

nt

Nice title, huh? Hypothetical post: I believe that a correct reading of the Bible makes works a necessary result a faith, and without faith works is dead. I believe that those who believe works aren't necessary aren't Christian, because they contradict the Scriptures. For example, the parables in Mt. 24 seem explicitly to say that faith devoid of works is just lip service. If this kind of post is allowed here, then let's see the other side. I have my Bible and a page of prooftexts ready.