Can I say something offensive here??

[Moxie]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

[maize]

I don't know how to recognize someone just choosing to be lazy or just choosing to act like a jerk.

 

I do know from personal experience what it is like to struggle with ADHD and be labled as lazy.

 

I've seen up close how difficult things are for my husband as he has to push through depression and anxiety every single day, and what a huge difference medication makes in his functioning and irritability.

 

If I'm going to err, I'd rather err on the side of compassion and understanding and seeking evaluations and help rather than judgmentalism and condemnation.

Edited February 15, 2017 by maize

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

 

I think we say that because we have no idea whether it's possible. For all we know, the homeschooling mom complaining about her family might have it totally wrong.

 

The kid might be in serious trouble, but Mom is a horrible parent and blames everything on laziness? While treating the child like some sort of Cinderella, refusing to let her go to school, whatever?

 

MIL walks on eggshells all the time, only venturing to even offer to help sometimes in actual emergencies, because any statement, ever, is taken as criticism by her insecure and self-absorbed DIL who tells everyone she's a bitch?

 

Husband might be a perfectly nice, longsuffering, normal guy who fails to do everything his wife says, the moment she says it, and just generally fails to be her ideal on a daily basis so she runs him down and only talks about his flaws?

 

We don't know. It would nice and clannish of us to assume that all our fellow homeschool mommies are the same type of (very good) people, and that we all see things the (obviously right) way. But who can tell that from a message board?

 

So the default becomes this: See dysfunction, suggest professional help.

 

To reference Cinderella again: If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it.

[Mom22ns]

I think we look for reasons that kids appear lazy, MIL appears a b**ch and DH appears a jerk because no one can help if they just "are". However, if we look for the reason, then there is a way to help them move through and past it.

 

If someone just wants to complain about those situations, they can label JAWM and we won't try to help.

[Scarlett]

I am not a fan of recommending therapy/counseling to everyone for every problem.  But I've not had great success the few times I tried it....marriage counseling especially was horrible and I do believe it made things worse.  Now I see it is because I was really trying and xh was just trying to shut me up and then he used counseling terms against me.

 

And I've been very fortunate in my life to have great personal friend's and family who have helped me sort through things when I felt my most crazy. Not everyone has that kind of support in their life.

[Catwoman]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

Can I be offensive right along with you? :lol:

 

I understand that specialized help is sometimes needed, but some people do seem awfully quick to jump to that conclusion for every little thing, without even asking for more details.

 

I do think they mean well, though, and that they are genuinely trying to help. And when they or their kids have had positive personal experiences with those assessments, diagnoses, and/or services, they want to help others get the same results.

[Tiramisu]

I have a dd who was miserable and and hard to be around. Medicine really made her a nice person because depression and anxiety were the root of her problem.

 

I've seen quite a few threads over the years of parents describing behaviors and thinking the kid was selfish and awful and sometimes posters responding about improving discipline and it makes me sad because it was so much like my dd. I think more discipline without medication would probably have caused my her to have become suicidal eventually, instead she's thriving. But I will admit her executive function is awful.

 

My oldest was a bit similar. She never seemed to listen as a child. In her teens we found out she had auditory processing disorder. She is actually a people pleaser, helpful, nurturing. But her behavior could have been interpreted as defiant early on, only because she wasn't able to understand what we said to her quite a bit of the time. Now we know and she knows, so she can advocate for herself to avoid misunderstandings when she's out in the world with friends or working.

 

Now I have another relative who is not nice on meds, with counseling, whatever. The explanation for that is NPD. It's hard to be sympathetic after years of dealing with that. And I have zero patience for drug and alcohol abuse, even if it's considered a disease.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Tiramisu

[MaryMak07]

I agree with maize. After having struggled with anxiety and depression myself I'm much slower to judge!! You could look at me and think its laziness but I promise it's not!

[IfIOnly]

I think the constant counseling advice with no understanding that for most people it's unaffordable, is rich and laughable. Especially since most homeschoolers primarily live off on one income. You're looking at an extra $500 a month minimum for weekly counseling, if you can even find someone that cheap. That's my gripe.

Edited February 15, 2017 by ifIonlyhadabrain

[maize]

I think the constant counseling advice with no understanding that for most people it's unaffordable, is rich and laughable. Especially since most homeschoolers primarily live off on one income. You're looking at an extra $500 a month minimum for weekly counseling, if you can even find someone that cheap. That's my gripe.

You are right that it can be really unworkable when insurance doesn't pay. We've been in that situation and had to really limit how much we used counseling services.

 

Right now we have a therapist who is covered by our insurance and we only have to come up with the $15 copay out of pocket.

Edited February 15, 2017 by maize

[BlsdMama]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

 

 

Yeah, unless that isn't their MO.  If the poster says, "Well, so and so usually is X but then is Y," then chances are something is amiss.  And everyone is better served by extending an ounce of grace then just labeling them lazy or mean and going on.

 

Just slapping a label on it and walking away definitely makes you feel better... Then you don't have to be proactive and do anything to understand or change the behavior.  But then it never stops.  It's reactive not proactive.  And if we all just react instead of understanding the circumstance and trying to make things improve then we'll all be bitter, mean, and jaded. ;)

[FaithManor]

I am just going to offer you hugs and support. BTDT got the t shirt. As the one on the receiving end of relentless verbal abuse from my male DNA a donor and always being told to "suck it up buttercup" because he is sick, or depressed, I get it. There is no level of pain he can cause that makes the mental health community give even the slightest damn about what he does to my mom, my sister, my brother, or me. We don't count at all. Not one damn bit. And his counselors feed him the "oh poor you"so he feels entirely justified in continuing the assault.

 

And he can control it...big time. Boy if the pastor or one of his friends is visiting he turns into St. Francis of Assisi! The minute they are out the door, he throws something at my head and yells, "Pick it up b@tch!"

 

He is no longer a part of my life.

 

I think school now would be an excellent choice. Not in the fall. Just right now. It will give her some transition time before high school.

 

Generally, I think there are reasons for specific behavior and many times professional help is warranted. But I also get too that some times the person affected by the issue does have some measure of control over just how abusive he or she gets but refuses to even try. That is the worst kind of exhausting and take it from me, there does come a time when you simply do whatever is necessary to get relief for everyone else before irreparable damage occurs.

 

Many hugs.

[Guest]

Agreeing with the others that there are many factors and the largest one is that we can only speak to what the poster says about the situation. Also, one thing I'm grateful for that I think is so much better now than, say, 40 years ago, is that people are more likely to look for organic reasons for negative behavior and not ascribe things to "sins." People who wear those sin-detector glasses ascribe things to character flaws or moral failings that could absolutely be part of a larger problem.

 

I think life is only better for humankind when we are willing to try to understand others and not just slap a character-flaw lable on them and wash our hands of them.

 

P.S. In the interest of total candor, the throwing around of NPD as a diagnosis for every nutjob neighbor and MIL does annoy me. I have a couple of nut-jobs I have to deal with from time-to-time, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are diagnosable as NPd or something else. I just know that interactions with them will leave me confused and vaguely angry (or perhaps more-than-vaguely angry); in the end I'm not sure it matters whether they are diagnosable as having a disorder or not.

[mom of 2 boys]

I think it's because getting help for a non-issue is not going to hurt, but not getting help for something that turns out to actually be a real problem could severely impact the outcome. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

You have a point. 

 

 

[SKL]

In my case I'm just a b!+c#, so there is that.  :P

 

But I think maybe the deciding factor is:  does the person want to change, try to change, and find himself/herself unable to change by doing the normal things, like, keep your lips zipped, set 2 alarm clocks, etc.?

 

Then again, there are people who have treatable mental issues AND who are mean.  I have a few of those in my extended family.  We put up with them but we don't go out of our way to hang with them kwim....

[Audrey]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

Yes, people CAN just be lazy, bitchy asses. But those are all judgments of personality. If someone has posted about a problem, they are looking for solutions. Dismissing their problem by making snap judgments about the personalities involved in the problem doesn't help them resolve their problem. Offering suggestions for therapy/medication/counseling/etc. and anecdotes of similar problems can be helpful.

 

I mean... look at it this way... I've been called a bitch more times than I can count, but it has never helped me stop being a bitch.  ;)

[creekland]

Agreeing with the others that there are many factors and the largest one is that we can only speak to what the poster says about the situation. Also, one thing I'm grateful for that I think is so much better now than, say, 40 years ago, is that people are more likely to look for organic reasons for negative behavior and not ascribe things to "sins." People who wear those sin-detector glasses ascribe things to character flaws or moral failings that could absolutely be part of a larger problem.

 

I think life is only better for humankind when we are willing to try to understand others and not just slap a character-flaw lable on them and wash our hands of them.

 

This.  I was incredibly judgmental in my youth, but since then have learned that there are so many real reasons why things occur rather than just "judgmental" ones.  When one corrects those real reasons, behavior improves.  We think nothing of it when someone has a bleeding wound - we fix it and don't expect them to be 100% until it's fixed.  Well, sometimes - many times - you can't see blood... but there's still a "wound" of some sort that needs fixing.

 

At school I get far better results when I work to understand the student (high schoolers) than I do with just "setting down the law."

 

With my own kids, middle son had a speech impediment when he was a toddler making us think he was "behind" and mentally coming to the conclusion, "it's ok, there are other things besides academics."  Fortunately, someone told us to get him assessed.  He wasn't behind at all - quite the opposite.  He was gifted - except for speech (and later reading).  Specialists were able to work with him (for free to us) and correct his problems, though it took 3-4 years.  They confided in us that if they hadn't been able to start with him so young (age 4) that he probably never would have gotten over his issues as completely as he has - if at all - due to the way the brain develops.

 

So... my personal experience has been positive with seeking answers to real problems rather than assuming character flaws are "it" - esp with younger kids.  For the older person who probably is set in their ways?  Then distance works for me - if needed - I'd recommend folks learn from professionals how to set lines, etc, rather than just being stressed out all the time.  The latter there certainly helps no one.

 

Labels really aren't made up in today's science age.  People are researching and learning more and more about how humans develop and how some things can be fixed - esp if caught early.  Would we ditch a cure for any other disease?  I guess some do... but there are things I regret doing from my younger days and #1 on that list is being so judgmental - esp with my own kids in their youth.

[FaithManor]

Agreeing with the others that there are many factors and the largest one is that we can only speak to what the poster says about the situation. Also, one thing I'm grateful for that I think is so much better now than, say, 40 years ago, is that people are more likely to look for organic reasons for negative behavior and not ascribe things to "sins." People who wear those sin-detector glasses ascribe things to character flaws or moral failings that could absolutely be part of a larger problem.

 

I think life is only better for humankind when we are willing to try to understand others and not just slap a character-flaw lable on them and wash our hands of them.

 

P.S. In the interest of total candor, the throwing around of NPD as a diagnosis for every nutjob neighbor and MIL does annoy me. I have a couple of nut-jobs I have to deal with from time-to-time, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are diagnosable as NPd or something else. I just know that interactions with them will leave me confused and vaguely angry (or perhaps more-than-vaguely angry); in the end I'm not sure it matters whether they are diagnosable as having a disorder or not.

Agreed. I just wish the mental health community gave a rat's rear about care givers and those on the receiving end. Some of us are 100% done in. Don't have another ounce of emotional energy to give, but we are ways the bad guys. Always. There is no credit for what we have suffered, what we endure. Just suck.it.up.

 

It is far better as a society to go looking for why and try to solve it. But sometimes it would be nice if a little grace to those in the trenches and hurting so very badly were extended.

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

I think school now would be an excellent choice. Not in the fall. Just right now. It will give her some transition time before high school.

 

Generally, I think there are reasons for specific behavior and many times professional help is warranted. But I also get too that some times the person affected by the issue does have some measure of control over just how abusive he or she gets but refuses to even try. That is the worst kind of exhausting and take it from me, there does come a time when you simply do whatever is necessary to get relief for everyone else before irreparable damage occurs.

 

Many hugs.

 

This. 

[eternalsummer]

I don't think it's such a dichotomy.  I think it's more of a scale of perspective; on one side you are looking at just behavior, not motivation, and judging the actions for themselves; on the other end you don't hold anyone responsible for anything at all because you are looking at the whole picture, every atom in motion and interacting with every other atom in a way that is determined entirely by the laws of physics and so not the moral responsibility of every person.  Then there's sort of a gradient in between where you can incorporate both perspectives to one degree or another, and most of us spend most of the time looking at the world and other people through some point within the gradient.

[MinivanMom]

OP, why are you are waiting until the fall to enroll your daughter? Would it be possible to make the transition now? I don't know what the school schedules are like in your area, but our local kids just started second semester about 3 weeks ago. Now would be the perfect time to enroll if you are both needing to make the transition earlier.

[Lady Florida.]

This.  I was incredibly judgmental in my youth, but since then have learned that there are so many real reasons why things occur rather than just "judgmental" ones.  When one corrects those real reasons, behavior improves.  We think nothing of it when someone has a bleeding wound - we fix it and don't expect them to be 100% until it's fixed.  Well, sometimes - many times - you can't see blood... but there's still a "wound" of some sort that needs fixing.

 

At school I get far better results when I work to understand the student (high schoolers) than I do with just "setting down the law."

 

With my own kids, middle son had a speech impediment when he was a toddler making us think he was "behind" and mentally coming to the conclusion, "it's ok, there are other things besides academics."  Fortunately, someone told us to get him assessed.  He wasn't behind at all - quite the opposite.  He was gifted - except for speech (and later reading).  Specialists were able to work with him (for free to us) and correct his problems, though it took 3-4 years.  They confided in us that if they hadn't been able to start with him so young (age 4) that he probably never would have gotten over his issues as completely as he has - if at all - due to the way the brain develops.

 

So... my personal experience has been positive with seeking answers to real problems rather than assuming character flaws are "it" - esp with younger kids.  For the older person who probably is set in their ways?  Then distance works for me - if needed - I'd recommend folks learn from professionals how to set lines, etc, rather than just being stressed out all the time.  The latter there certainly helps no one.

 

Labels really aren't made up in today's science age.  People are researching and learning more and more about how humans develop and how some things can be fixed - esp if caught early.  Would we ditch a cure for any other disease?  I guess some do... but there are things I regret doing from my younger days and #1 on that list is being so judgmental - esp with my own kids in their youth.

 

 

All of this needs repeating, but especially the last paragraph. In the past people were given unscientific/non-medical labels instead of given real help for a condition. I don't see anything wrong with trying to find out if there's a treatable reason for the way someone acts. 

[LucyStoner]

Since it's ok to be offensive:

 

Some of us have to figure out a way to make it work/cover the costs of therapy and dx treatments come hell or high water. This affects employment choices, carrying pricier insurance etc. Even if this means selling houses, moving, living on a reduced income, going to food banks etc.

 

Because it's that or split up to keep one child safe from the other. Or residential facilities. Or juvenile justice involvement. Or burying yourself alive for a much needed respite. 😂

 

ETA- so do not write off people suggesting some therapeutic approaches as hopelessly privileged. I get the constraints of a budget and live within a tighter one than many people who insist they can't afford any help at all.

Edited February 15, 2017 by LucyStoner

[FaithManor]

Since it's ok to be offensive:

 

Some of us have to figure out a way to make it work/cover the costs of therapy and dx treatments come hell or high water. This affects employment choices, carrying pricier insurance etc. Even if this means selling houses, moving, living on a reduced income, going to food banks etc.

 

Because it's that or split up to keep one child safe from the other. Or residential facilities. Or juvenile justice involvement. Or burying yourself alive for a much needed respite. 😂

And this is something I truly hate about lack of access and affordability of getting help. All the crap that gets funded in this nation....I better stop before I get political.

[Guest]

OP, why are you are waiting until the fall to enroll your daughter? Would it be possible to make the transition now? I don't know what the school schedules are like in your area, but our local kids just started second semester about 3 weeks ago. Now would be the perfect time to enroll if you are both needing to make the transition earlier.

I'm sorry but this idea is kinda nuts. She is in hs activities I'd have to pull her out of two months before the end. The 8th graders at the school she would go to have been getting ready for their big event for a year. She would have no place in it. Then she'd have to transition to a whole other school in August?? Just, what?? No chance.

[Scarlett]

Since it's ok to be offensive:

 

Some of us have to figure out a way to make it work/cover the costs of therapy and dx treatments come hell or high water. This affects employment choices, carrying pricier insurance etc. Even if this means selling houses, moving, living on a reduced income, going to food banks etc.

 

Because it's that or split up to keep one child safe from the other. Or residential facilities. Or juvenile justice involvement. Or burying yourself alive for a much needed respite. 😂

 

:grouphug:

[Guest]

And this is something I truly hate about lack of access and affordability of getting help. All the crap that gets funded in this nation....I better stop before I get political.

Right on.

 

And hugs to you; it cannot be easy.

[Valley Girl]

I'm sorry but this idea is kinda nuts. She is in hs activities I'd have to pull her out of two months before the end. The 8th graders at the school she would go to have been getting ready for their big event for a year. She would have no place in it. Then she'd have to transition to a whole other school in August?? Just, what?? No chance.

 

I think the poster who made this suggestion was just trying to be helpful. It was clear from your other post that you are at your wit's end with the situation as it is now. (Been there, so I have only sympathy for you. It can be SO hard.) Suggesting that you enroll your DD now is simply one way of making a change that would significantly reduce your stress in the short term. If that won't work for your DD, that's fine. But it was still a valid suggestion.

[Guest]

I think the poster who made this suggestion was just trying to be helpful. It was clear from your other post that you are at your wit's end with the situation as it is now. (Been there, so I have only sympathy for you. It can be SO hard.) Suggesting that you enroll your DD now is simply one way of making a change that would significantly reduce your stress in the short term. If that won't work for your DD, that's fine. But it was still a valid suggestion.

I know she was being helpful but one other poster mentioned it and I just wanted to be clear that switching to an 8th grade classroom two months before the end of the year and after being homeschooled for 9 years is 110% not an option.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Moxie

[OneStepAtATime]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

[ETA:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I know you are stressed right now.  I'm so sorry.  Not trying to add to your stress.]

 

 

Yes, kids can just be lazy and MILs can be just horrible and so can a husband, etc.  

 

When someone is posting asking for help, though, unless they are labeling their thread as just a JAWM, they are usually actually looking for help.  They are seeking a proactive option for fixing the situation, if possible.  Since internet posters can't see the whole picture and do not live with the person that is posting, the respondents are posting what they hope will be helpful suggestions from their own past experiences, either within their own family or with friends, etc.  They make those suggestions not because they KNOW their suggestion will help or even that the OP has the resources to seek out specific help they may suggest but because they are trying to share something they think might help and the OP can choose to use that information or simply move past it.  Maybe somebody's post somewhere else on that thread will be more useful to the OP, but at least they offered a possibility that makes sense to them and might assist the OP in some way.  

 

In many instances, IMHO, there really IS an underlying issue, whatever that might be.  Most people who post along those lines have had FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE and are sharing based on knowledge of a personal experience that sounds similar to the OP.  Maybe it is something diagnosable or maybe it isn't but they make the suggestion in case what they went through and dealt with really IS the issue the OP is dealing with and sharing what they found out/did might genuinely help.  

 

Suggestions along those lines got me thinking about and seeking answers for my own family in areas I had never even thought to look.  Were all suggestions helpful or even affordable to pursue?  No.  But I am so grateful that people with similar experiences shared their views.  I looked into things that made sense to me and it helped my family tremendously.  There WERE underlying issues causing our problems.  I WAS able to find a better, more productive path for my family.  And almost entirely because of people here at WTM being willing to share their own stories and offer suggestions. 

 

If someone actually was experiencing a similar situation and HAD found an underlying cause and HAD found a way to address that cause would you rather they kept quiet?  Would you rather they didn't share?  If so, then maybe preface the post with "I want helpful suggestions but am not interested in any sort of therapy or pursuing any sort of diagnosis or anything else along those lines.  I want helpful suggestions for how to handle a lazy/obnoxious child or an a**hole hubby or a b**** MIL and please just assume that is who they are.  No need for discussions about possible underlying reasons for their behavior."

 

I know it does seem that people jump on the therapy or diagnosis bandwagon a lot but I see that coming mainly from people for whom those things actually did help.  They are sharing in the hopes that what they are sharing helps someone else because it did help them.  

Edited February 15, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[marbel]

<snip>

 

Yes, kids can just be lazy and MILs can be just horrible and so can a husband, etc.  

 

When someone is posting asking for help, though, unless they are labeling their thread as just a JAWM, they are usually actually looking for help.  They are seeking a proactive option for fixing the situation, if possible.  Since internet posters can't see the whole picture and do not live with the person that is posting, the respondents are posting what they hope will be helpful suggestions from their own past experiences, either within their own family or with friends, etc.  They make those suggestions not because they KNOW their suggestion will help or even that the OP has the resources to seek out specific help they may suggest but because they are trying to share something they think might help and the OP can choose to use that information or simply move past it.  Maybe somebody's post somewhere else on that thread will be more useful to the OP, but at least they offered a possibility that makes sense to them and might assist the OP in some way.  

 

<snip>

 

Exactly right. 

 

People can only help from their own experience and knowledge.  

 

Thinking about my own kids... one of mine was a holy terror in the summer around age 5.  So bad that we had to cancel his birthday party because we were afraid he'd push someone off the top of the slide.  Turns out he had bad, I mean bad, seasonal allergies and felt like crap all summer.  He's allergic to grass... we lived in the middle of a field.  He's allergic to every tree that grows in the US, save one - and we lived in Oregon next to woods. So, that cured me of just assuming every kid who had a behavior problem was simply a brat, right?

 

I have other anecdotes, but you get the idea.   

 

Writing people off as a bitch, or a brat, or lazy, etc., doesn't really get anyone anywhere.  Most of those problems have a cause. 

 

ETA: And, I think, when the problem is our own kid or spouse, don't we owe it to them to try to  figure out if something else is going on?

Edited February 15, 2017 by marbel

[Guest]

I firmly believe some people really are JUST the pits.

 

Sometimes I'm lippy for absolutely zero reason. Sometimes I JUST don't feel like doing anything, no matter how important. Iow sometimes I'm just lazy. No doubt in my mind some ppl are habitually so!

[gardenmom5]

I don't know how to recognize someone just choosing to be lazy or just choosing to act like a jerk.

 

I do know from personal experience what it is like to struggle with ADHD and be labled as lazy.

 

I've seen up close how difficult things are for my husband as he has to push through depression and anxiety every single day, and what a huge difference medication makes in his functioning and irritability.

 

If I'm going to err, I'd rather err on the side of compassion and understanding and seeking evaluations and help rather than judgmentalism and condemnation.

this.

and it's not just the parents - it's the teachers and every other tom dick and harry.

I'm very vulnerable to chemistry and how it affects both my functioning and my moods.  even if I know what the hades is going  on . . . it can be super hard.  (and I'm a very experienced with this adult.). 

 

I've dealt with this with dudeling - the things adults have said about him (and flat out blamed me for his behavior because he was so young) before we had a asd, ocd, odd, apd, diagnosis.  really nasty stuff - I was lazy for not disciplining him adequately.  I had one person repeatedly.  r.e.p.e.a.t.e.d.l.y!  every week or two - recommend parenting classes for me.  this is my fifth kid . . . .

 

Agreeing with the others that there are many factors and the largest one is that we can only speak to what the poster says about the situation. Also, one thing I'm grateful for that I think is so much better now than, say, 40 years ago, is that people are more likely to look for organic reasons for negative behavior and not ascribe things to "sins." People who wear those sin-detector glasses ascribe things to character flaws or moral failings that could absolutely be part of a larger problem.

 

I think life is only better for humankind when we are willing to try to understand others and not just slap a character-flaw lable on them and wash our hands of them.

 

P.S. In the interest of total candor, the throwing around of NPD as a diagnosis for every nutjob neighbor and MIL does annoy me. I have a couple of nut-jobs I have to deal with from time-to-time, but it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are diagnosable as NPd or something else. I just know that interactions with them will leave me confused and vaguely angry (or perhaps more-than-vaguely angry); in the end I'm not sure it matters whether they are diagnosable as having a disorder or not.

 

this - I realize I had some  of the same issues of dudeling - but today, as opposed to 40 years ago, I would have been diagnosed as asd with severe anxiety, and apd.  and probably gotten help.  instead of treated as lazy and stupid. or had my mother telling me I was "a pill". all. the. time.  you're such a pill kristen . . . gives me hell of a lot of motivation to find out what is going on and help my child!

 

npd - yes. I also think it gets overused.  it's easy to use it as a catch-all fast-descriptor.   for some, there is something organically wrong in their brain and some of the carp they dish is out of their control.  but others,  . . . they are choosing to act this way.  especially if they are careful who sees them acting that way.

 

This.  I was incredibly judgmental in my youth, but since then have learned that there are so many real reasons why things occur rather than just "judgmental" ones.  When one corrects those real reasons, behavior improves.  We think nothing of it when someone has a bleeding wound - we fix it and don't expect them to be 100% until it's fixed.  Well, sometimes - many times - you can't see blood... but there's still a "wound" of some sort that needs fixing.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

 snip

 

So... my personal experience has been positive with seeking answers to real problems rather than assuming character flaws are "it" - esp with younger kids.  For the older person who probably is set in their ways?  Then distance works for me - if needed - I'd recommend folks learn from professionals how to set lines, etc, rather than just being stressed out all the time.  The latter there certainly helps no one.

 

Labels really aren't made up in today's science age.  People are researching and learning more and more about how humans develop and how some things can be fixed - esp if caught early.  Would we ditch a cure for any other disease?  I guess some do... but there are things I regret doing from my younger days and #1 on that list is being so judgmental - esp with my own kids in their youth.

 

one of the people making the most vocal judgemental comments about how I parented dudeling (to much of our social circle)  - admits she was very judgemental (about other things).  her attitude totally changed when she heard dudeling's diagnosis, and no, it wasn't "just me". her dh heard it from me, and his expression was one of pure mortification becasue he'd thought his wife was correct - and he learned not  only were they totally off-base, there was a very serious organic reason for what was going on.

I've never had an apology from either of them - but she's much more respectful when she asks how he's doing.

 

 i know how hard it is to parent such a child - and he can make me feel like a failure multiple times a day.

[Guest]

I agree with maize. After having struggled with anxiety and depression myself I'm much slower to judge!! You could look at me and think its laziness but I promise it's not!

Yeah but if it *is* laziness not depression, we can just call it that without judging it. Everyone has their own threshold for asshattery and anything under it really isn't a problem.

[Crimson Wife]

If a child truly has LD's, then he/she will struggle even with things that he/she is genuinely motivated to make happen. The reason I knew my oldest DD was being lazy and not struggling with LD's is that she was perfectly capable of getting things done when sufficiently motivated. I wound up having to outsource her core academics to the community college and lo & behold, she's doing fine. It was laziness and adolescent unwillingness to work for mom at play, not any underlying LD.

[Anne in CA]

Agreed. I just wish the mental health community gave a rat's rear about care givers and those on the receiving end. Some of us are 100% done in. Don't have another ounce of emotional energy to give, but we are ways the bad guys. Always. There is no credit for what we have suffered, what we endure. Just suck.it.up.

 

It is far better as a society to go looking for why and try to solve it. But sometimes it would be nice if a little grace to those in the trenches and hurting so very badly were extended.

This reminds me of when my oldest dd's mom had a stroke and had to discontinue the medication she takes for Bipolar Disorder. I don't know if her birth mom has Bipolar or not, I think she is Borderline Personality Disorder instead, but whatever, she had to go without her medicine for a couple of months. She turned into a monster. Normally is not nice at all, but the lack of medicine caused her to yell, freak out, hit her children who were living with her. She would call my dd (who was homeschooled then) in the middle of the day when her other children were gone to school so she would yell at someone. I would hear her yell through the phone in an adjoining but different room. Our lawyer said we had to let her do it. That she, as a grown up, had to have unlimited phone access when dd was home. It's one reason I sent her back to ps for high school the next year. The system simply does not care about victims at all. All the sympathy is for the person with the problem. 

[wendyroo]

Because healthy humans are by and large very social creatures; survival of the species hinges on it.  Of course, people aren't perfect, they are often annoying twits, but evolutionarily, playing well enough with others is in our best interest.

 

So when someone posts that a loved one is acting well outside typical behavior patterns (for the loved one's age and circumstance).  When the poster lists many things that they have done to try to fix the problem to no avail.  When they express complete bewilderment as to why the loved one is acting that way and how the poster can possibly cope with the intolerable behaviors...

 

At that point it sounds to me like more than venting about having to deal with an annoying twit; it sounds like the poster is dealing with someone who is really struggling to conform to even rudimentary behavioral norms...and that can be a sign of underlying medical/mental health issues.

 

Wendy

[Jean in Newcastle]

If your child was struggling with a subject in the schools, most people would expect the schools to investigate and remediate instead of labeling the child as lazy. I don't think that homeschoolers should treat their children differently. (And the argument that some schools don't investigate or remediate is irrelevant. )

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think, for a lot of us, if a person wants the message conveyed in their post to be, "My child is lazy," or "my child is a jerk," and is prepared to bite the head off of any person who tries (for a single second) to imagine the perspective and/or needs of the child - for the purpose of offering a (hopefully) helpful suggestion - we would be very appreciative if you'd go ahead and use the JAWM. It's impossible to guess ahead of time that a parent doesn't want support for working toward a solution; they just want support for being mad at their kid.

 

Although when you don't respond to people's attempts to be useful, or acknowledge their experience or the time that they've spent considering your situation, but rather start a new thread about how you get the wrong kind of feedback here...we can learn from that, too. It's a little slower, but we get the picture and won't trouble you anymore.

[sassenach]

I think we say that because we have no idea whether it's possible. For all we know, the homeschooling mom complaining about her family might have it totally wrong.

 

The kid might be in serious trouble, but Mom is a horrible parent and blames everything on laziness? While treating the child like some sort of Cinderella, refusing to let her go to school, whatever?

 

MIL walks on eggshells all the time, only venturing to even offer to help sometimes in actual emergencies, because any statement, ever, is taken as criticism by her insecure and self-absorbed DIL who tells everyone she's a bitch?

 

Husband might be a perfectly nice, longsuffering, normal guy who fails to do everything his wife says, the moment she says it, and just generally fails to be her ideal on a daily basis so she runs him down and only talks about his flaws?

 

We don't know. It would nice and clannish of us to assume that all our fellow homeschool mommies are the same type of (very good) people, and that we all see things the (obviously right) way. But who can tell that from a message board?

 

So the default becomes this: See dysfunction, suggest professional help.

 

To reference Cinderella again: If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it.

I've wondered how many NPD women we have on here. Sometimes you can catch the themes. There are a few posters whom I have put on my ignore list simply because I kept getting sucked in without noticing the pattern. Once I saw it, I didn't want to be part of feeding the monster.

[FaithManor]

As the former care giver of someone who was hell bent on destroying me, I just can't continue.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by FaithManor

[Paige]

 

Writing people off as a bitch, or a brat, or lazy, etc., doesn't really get anyone anywhere.  Most of those problems have a cause. 

 

ETA: And, I think, when the problem is our own kid or spouse, don't we owe it to them to try to  figure out if something else is going on?

 

I agree with this. If it's someone else's kid, spouse, or parent, I can say it's not my problem to solve, and distance myself from the person and forget about it. When it's my family, I owe it to them to rule out possible legitimate reasons for extreme behavior before writing them off. If someone complained of a very colicky baby, the natural first step would be to get the baby checked out for physical problems- reflux, allergies, etc. Only when those have been ruled out would it be fair to suggest the baby is just a screamer and you'll have to suffer through. Very erratic or out of control kids, teens, and adults, deserve the same consideration. 

 

We (or at least I) also assume here that people are involved parents who are trying very hard. When someone is really working on a relationship or trying hard to educate and it's not working, that's a red flag. If someone's behavior is causing extreme family stress, it is just common sense, IMO, to rule out anything that could be fixable. 

 

Finally, I come from a philosophy similar to the ancient Greeks. I cannot remember which one (Plato, Aristotle, or Socrates) gave me this concept, but it was something like: all souls will do good if they can and if they can understand what is good. A mind that cannot do good, is obviously, and by definition, a sick mind or an ignorant mind. If they are educated on what is good and cannot choose it, then there must be something holding them back. If we can clear this up, then that person will do good and be successful. 

 

The above is, I'm sure, a total bastardization of the real ideas, but it's been years since I studied them. I don't believe in mentally intact evil people, bitches, or brats. I may believe in laziness, but not to the level where the person cannot succeed in his or her own goals. 

[Valley Girl]

As the former care giver of someone who was hell bent on destroying me, I just can't continue.

 

FaithManor, I saw your post before you edited it, and I wanted to say I believe every word you said. I just cannot, however, wrap my mind around what you've encountered. That the mental health/legal community would have their heads stuck so far up their you-know-whats is so far outside my realm of experience. (Again, I'm not in any way doubting you.) Saying "I'm sorry you're going through this" is so terribly...inadequate. Hugs and peace to you.

[FaithManor]

FaithManor, I saw your post before you edited it, and I wanted to say I believe every word you said. I just cannot, however, wrap my mind around what you've encountered. That the mental health/legal community would have their heads stuck so far up their you-know-whats is so far outside my realm of experience. (Again, I'm not in any way doubting you.) Saying "I'm sorry you're going through this" is so terribly...inadequate. Hugs and peace to you.

Thank you. I appreciate that so much!

[EMS83]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

 

Yes, yes, yes.  However, to confuse and potentially incense things...as a Christian, I believe we are all deeply disordered, and no amount of counseling or meds will fully renew anyone.  I personally think this is a large source of the dysfunction we see.  BUT, I also think a physiological abnormality, deep personal hurts, and diet in any combination can contribute to behaviors we then label as this disorder and treat with that remedy.  And to me compassion =/= permissiveness/doormat/enabling.  And I don't think allowing that it is just simple laziness or jerkiness is advocating a non-responsive approach, either.  It requires a different response.

[mamaofgirls]

It annoys me when people complain about their MIL.... I have never had one, she passed away when DH was younger. For almost 10 years I wonder things like - will my daughter get breast cancer too? Will she start her cycle at 12 instead of me at 16.5? Will she have huge boobs, unlike me who is flat as a board? My FIL raised his 3 boys alone and know ones knows the answers/will talk about it.

[Guest]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

Sometimes there are underlying causes but I'm with you - often it is just that simple in my experience. But when something else is the cause it's critical to find and manage the deeper issue. I think enough people on here have had to deal with the weird that they toss it out as a possible cause right away just because *they* wish someone had suggested it to *them* sooner.

 

Know what I mean?

[foxbridgeacademy]

I know this will sound offensive but I don't mean it to be. Really.

 

I read people post on this board about issues with kids, husbands, MILs, etc. and SO OFTEN the response is therapy/medication/counselor/anxiety/executive function issues, etc.

 

Can't kids just be lazy?

Can't MIL just be a bitch?

Can't a husband just be an ass?

 

Why is every issue a disorder in need of specialized help? I get that sometimes that is that case but, imo, more often than not, the kid is just a lazy turd trying to get away with being lazy and MIL is just a bitch because bad behavior gets attention.

 

 I agree, my DC are sometimes just lazy, my MIL is without a doubt a not good person (seriously, drop a house on her already, Dorothy), and my husband who claims to be practically perfect in every way can have a bad day, but that doesn't mean they also don't have Dyslexia, ADD/Chronic Fatigue, NPD, or depression.  In the end, I'm a fixer, I bet many of us here are.  We want to help each other and we want to be helped.  

[gardenmom5]

I agree with this. If it's someone else's kid, spouse, or parent, I can say it's not my problem to solve, and distance myself from the person and forget about it. When it's my family, I owe it to them to rule out possible legitimate reasons for extreme behavior before writing them off. If someone complained of a very colicky baby, the natural first step would be to get the baby checked out for physical problems- reflux, allergies, etc. Only when those have been ruled out would it be fair to suggest the baby is just a screamer and you'll have to suffer through. Very erratic or out of control kids, teens, and adults, deserve the same consideration. 

 

We (or at least I) also assume here that people are involved parents who are trying very hard. When someone is really working on a relationship or trying hard to educate and it's not working, that's a red flag. If someone's behavior is causing extreme family stress, it is just common sense, IMO, to rule out anything that could be fixable. 

 

 

I have one who was volatile - especially once puberty hit.  it did not stop until well into adulthood and finally finding what would work.  this person did not like being volatile - siblings complained.  this child went to multiple drs trying to figure out what was going on - trying different rx - FOR YEARS.   also had people saying just needed to change attitude. . . . nope, it was chemical, just needed to find what worked.

 

and I remember celebrating inside my sister didn't come on vacation with us the summer I was 10 - and that "this is what a normal family" is like.

there's biochemical stuff going on there too.

 

It annoys me when people complain about their MIL.... I have never had one, she passed away when DH was younger. For almost 10 years I wonder things like - will my daughter get breast cancer too? Will she start her cycle at 12 instead of me at 16.5? Will she have huge boobs, unlike me who is flat as a board? My FIL raised his 3 boys alone and know ones knows the answers/will talk about it.

 

that's nice you wanted to have a mil - and it sounds great that your fil did a good job raising his boys.  I assume you have a mother.

 

I know women with wonderful mils - I'm very happy for them. (I know some of those same mils too, and they're great.)   I know women who'd rather have their mil than their own mother.  when I was a starry-eyed bride, I was hopefully (re: naively) looking forwards to having a great mil.

 

some of us . . . didn't get those mils. 

 

I will suggest you would be wise to respect that those of us who have had challenging (or worse) relationships with our mils aren't being disrespectful ninnys. becasue your comment implies you - who has never had a mil of any kind (let alone a challenging one) - thinks all mils are great by definition - and it's only the attitude of the dil who determines if it's a good relationship or not.