another police shooting - a therapist helping a man with autism

[Liz CA]

Very disturbing and sad. This could happen anywhere. People go AWOL from mental facilities all the time. Years ago - before I worked there - it happened here. A patient had jumped the fence but had been observed by the Program Director who followed him down the road at a distance because the patient was responding to internal stimuli and was rather agitated. Police either drove by or had been called by someone and tried to talk to the man. He was mumbling non-sensical stuff and the officer kept asking him for his name. It took repeated explanations by the program director to convince the officer not to take him down and cuff him.

I am not sure if nowadays our police department is better educated about mentally ill people. I sure hope so.

[Katy]

Chris Rock has been pretty open about posting selfies every time he gets pulled over.  You'd think the cops would run his plates, see who it is, and not pull him over.  How many cops can there possibly be in his rich neighborhood? 

 

There's a video about it here from The Young Turks who also addressed Isiah Washington basically blaming the type of car he was driving for getting pulled over all the time.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Can we clear something up, please? Multiple people have already said that it's improbable that LEOs are setting out to kill people. Or setting out to harass people on a systemic basis, however, that is what's actually happening. That is happening. I would like us to find out why that is and stop it from happening again, not pretend there is no issue. The harassment is well documented. The disproportionate policing is well-documented.

 

You know what else those two men had in common besides bogus citizen 911 calls? Dark skin. I tend to believe that's not an insignificant factor. The data seems to bear that out. Why the need to hunt, and dig, into these folks' backgrounds for any reason why they deserved death? Why can't we step back, look at the systemic problem that we have with over policing, aggressive LE, and decrease the number of interactions that might lead to these deaths?

 

Unless the DOJ report in Ferguson is a complete lie, we know there are thousands of Philando Castiles out there who, on any given day, could end up dead simply because of the sheer number of interactions they have with LE...entirely undeserved interactions BTW.

For clarification, I don't believe we can say the 911 call on Sterling was bogus.

[catz]

For clarification, I don't believe we can say the 911 call on Sterling was bogus.

 

I don't think we can say it was bogus in the sense that the caller probably actually thought there was illegal, dangerous situation going on vs. a malicious call to stir up trouble for someone.  But people bring their own biases and baggage into how they interpret and report situations.  The police can't assume that every detail that comes through by a citizen reporting a potential crime is correct and accurate regardless of whether or not the caller seems sincere. 

 

In this case, I haven't seen any reports that say either the autistic man or the assistant had a weapon of any kind.  Police should be better trained to actually assess the situation as they come into it.  I don't get the sense that the police were ever in any kind of danger in this situation. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by WoolySocks

[MercyA]

But people bring their own biases and baggage into how they interpret and report situations.  The police can't assume that every detail that comes through by a citizen reporting a potential crime is correct and accurate regardless of whether or not the caller seems sincere. 

 

That's for sure. Did anyone else read about the Canadian black man who was pulled over by police because he had been oh-so-suspiciously reading C.S. Lewis and Timothy Keller in his car for a couple hours?

[La Condessa]

You want to talk about fear? Next spring we have to move back to the states. For three years we've been overseas. My husband is very eager to get his new lux out of storage and ride in comfort. Only, we're moving to an area where people were recommending 'diverse' schools with 8% minority enrollment. These would be my neighbors.

 

Are they going to see my DH coming and going early in the morning and late at night and call 911? When he goes out for his daily 5 mile jog at dawn, will he be called in for prowling? It's terrifying. Any given citizen can call him in as suspicious and I might lose my spouse.  Aside from keys to get back in, he doesn't run with ID and it wouldn't have a local address anyway. I told him to start wearing his Navy PT gear and uniform when out. I don't know what else to do. If the LEO who shot Philando could see a wide-set nose as he drove by, surely they can see DH's khakis and collar devices.

 

How ironic is it that I want my DH to keep his uniform on in an effort to make up for his skin, the one thing he can't change.

 

When does his fear, my fear, get to matter? When is it reasonable for us to freak out and spout off or any of the other reactions that people justify in LEOs?

 

The fear we live with is life and death, just as stressful, and completely unavoidable. Being black is not a job we can quit and it's not a fear 2 years in the making.

 

This is a life sentence.

 

I just wish I could give you a hug Sneezyone.  I don't know, I don't know what I can do but teach my own children, but I am so sorry that you have to live with this fear.  No one should have to fear like this.

[ktgrok]

So, now they are saying the cop did mean to shoot the autistic man, and missed. He says he thought the autistic man had a gun and was going to shoot the caregiver. So he shot and ended up hitting the caregiver himself. Ugh. http://time.com/4417960/police-shoot-autistic-caretaker-charles-kinsey/?xid=time_socialflow_facebook

[hornblower]

"Officials are investigating two police officers after the violent arrest of an African-American elementary school teacher in June 2015"

http://www.kvue.com/news/investigations/defenders/police-investigating-officers-in-teachers-2015-arrest/279174704

There's dashboard footage. 

 

[December]

So, now they are saying the cop did mean to shoot the autistic man, and missed. He says he thought the autistic man had a gun and was going to shoot the caregiver. So he shot and ended up hitting the caregiver himself. Ugh. http://time.com/4417960/police-shoot-autistic-caretaker-charles-kinsey/?xid=time_socialflow_facebook

 

 

Well, that would all make perfect sense....if they hadn't then preceded to hand cuff Kinsey. Because that's what you do when you think someone is in danger of being shot and killed, you hand cuff them, right?

 

Also, I like the way the police chief makes a point of identifying the autistic man as a white male, when he clearly appears to be Hispanic.

Edited July 21, 2016 by December

[Murphy101]

In a rare lapse, I had the tv news on and they were saying the officer intended to shoot the man sitting bc they had a call that a man with a gun was threatening suicide. The officer released a statement to this effect, but there will still be an investigation. It *sounds* like the officer thought he was facing a "suicide by cop" type situation.

 

The sitting man was talking very not nice to the man on the ground. I could hear him easier than the man on the ground. And the cop was much further away. I wonder if he didn't hear/see it the same.

 

I'm not surprised the cop missed or that he may have fired 3 times. Most cops are not trained as sharp shooters and even sharp shooters miss in the heat of the moment while in motion. I have no issue with better training of cops in general regardless though.

 

As for cops getting disabled sensitivity training. I don't think they need sensitivity, just flat out knowledge.

 

The state diabetic association stepped up many years ago and offered for free to give 1/2 day training seminars to cops on how to tell the difference and how to help such people. And also worked with the police department on how to respond. A man died because cops thought he was just drunk and decided to let him sleep it off in the cell. He never woke up bc he was not drunk, he was having a major diabetic episode.

 

And also, I know many people in my city (not state) think it is a stupid waste of money, but I love how if you call 911 in my town at all, for anything, you ALWAYS get a cop and ambulance. If I call about an injury, I get both. If I call about a burglary. I get both. Everytime. The city policy is that anything that requires a cop, could easily need an ambulance. And anything that needs an ambulance might need backup for their safety. When they have come out to help with my dh for example, the paramedics come in and go to work and the cops sit around in the living room giving suckers and stickers to my kids. That's what they did when I was being hauled away with that last baby delivery too. Cops showed up right behind the ambulance to make sure everything was okay and ask if we needed help. We had someone with the kids, so they gave my husband an escort to the hospital. And it means that a cop showing up for a possible suicide doesn't have to rely on just police training to help someone with a mental or physical health problem. I wish every city did this, but even in mine that's done it for YEARS and anyone who has made a call has seen the positive of it, people complain that it is a waste of resources. It isn't IF the city has to keep an adaquate staff to do it, which they currently do. And THAT takes money, but I personally think it's money very well spent. But I guarantee you the major city next door is not adaquately staffed at all and for sure couldn't do this and the people there constantly vote down things that would improve that.

[Laurie4b]

So, now they are saying the cop did mean to shoot the autistic man, and missed. He says he thought the autistic man had a gun and was going to shoot the caregiver. So he shot and ended up hitting the caregiver himself. Ugh. http://time.com/4417960/police-shoot-autistic-caretaker-charles-kinsey/?xid=time_socialflow_facebook

 

But the caregiver was clearly explaining that it was a toy truck.

 

And as a pp said, if that is the reason he was shot (by accident) why the handcuffs? 

 

And if you can't shoot well enough to hit the person you mean to hit and there are two people there... do you decide you should be the person to take the shot? There were at least 3 patrol cars there. What if he'd accidentally killed the caregiver? 

 

And... am I the only one who thinks it's obvious that when a grown man is sitting on the ground rocking himself that there is probably something different about him in the mental health realm? 

 

I am glad the man with autism wasn't shot but golly. 

[Murphy101]

Well, that would all make perfect sense....if they hadn't then preceded to hand cuff Kinsey. Because that's what you do when you think someone is in danger of being shot and killed, you hand cuff them, right?

 

Also, I like the way the police chief makes a point of identifying the autistic man as a white male, when he clearly appears to be Hispanic.

??? "Clearly" to who? I think many people would look at him and not automaticly think Hispanic. I didn't. And just the other day I had a FB conversation with someone about this. They were saying a painting of BVM looked very not white, which they liked, because they felt a more middle eastern/African mix would be more accurate. Which is fine by me, but I thought she looked VERY white. But then I thought, well she looks very Italian in this image to me... Are Italians white? I mean technically that's Mediterranean. Right? Which has quite the skin shade spectrum? It was an interesting conversation has every discussed the exact same image and couldn't decide ethnicity. Lol Edited July 21, 2016 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

Idk why the handcuffs. We don't see that in the video either. If I was shot like that, I'd be really pissed off and possibly not in a nice frame of mind with the person who shot me. If I was shot in the leg, I'd be highly tempted to punch the throat of the guy who shot me when he got close enough. Maybe the cop handcuffed him just to avoid the possibility of the guy lashing out at him? Idk, but I could sorta understand that.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Murphy101

[Carrie12345]

You want to talk about fear? Next spring we have to move back to the states. For three years we've been overseas. My husband is very eager to get his new lux out of storage and ride in comfort. Only, we're moving to an area where people were recommending 'diverse' schools with 8% minority enrollment. These would be my neighbors.

 

Are they going to see my DH coming and going early in the morning and late at night and call 911? When he goes out for his daily 5 mile jog at dawn, will he be called in for prowling? It's terrifying. Any given citizen can call him in as suspicious and I might lose my spouse.  Aside from keys to get back in, he doesn't run with ID and it wouldn't have a local address anyway. I told him to start wearing his Navy PT gear and uniform when out. I don't know what else to do. If the LEO who shot Philando could see a wide-set nose as he drove by, surely they can see DH's khakis and collar devices.

 

How ironic is it that I want my DH to keep his uniform on in an effort to make up for his skin, the one thing he can't change.

 

When does his fear, my fear, get to matter? When is it reasonable for us to freak out and spout off or any of the other reactions that people justify in LEOs?

 

The fear we live with is life and death, just as stressful, and completely unavoidable. Being black is not a job we can quit and it's not a fear 2 years in the making.

 

This is a life sentence.

 

 

I can't "like" this.

 

But I must acknowledge it.

 

:iagree:

 

Nothing to add, other than the fact that I feel a need to quote it 100 more times with the hope that the bolded will eventually get an answer.

[StaceyinLA]

You really should watch the video. You'll stop defending the police in this particular case. I'm almost always on the side of cops, and in both of those cases this situation is heart-breakingly terrible.

 

Honestly, I don't know how many times I have said in this thread that I am NOT defending the cops in this case. I do NOT believe the man needed to be killed. Period.

[ktgrok]

My only thought is the camera is way to the left of everything, on the side of the therapist. The cop is way to the right, even further away. Maybe he couldn't hear the therapist???  

 

But yeah, you don't save someone's life, like he was claiming, by taking a shot and then shooting that person. 

[elegantlion]

I hear that your heart is not the way your initial post read.

 

However, can you understand people's reactions, especially in a situation as egregious as the current one, that a certain impression would be formed when, in your initial post in this thread, the one solution you offered that more of the victims of these crimes should have been locked up so they wouldn't have been out there where they got shot?

1) Even with a rap sheet, you don't deserve to be summarily executed.

2) It's true that had the victims been anywhere else, they wouldn't have been shot, so I don't really see the point. 

 

 

Louisiana also has the highest incarceration rate in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_and_correctional_supervision_rate

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

"Officials are investigating two police officers after the violent arrest of an African-American elementary school teacher in June 2015"

 

http://www.kvue.com/news/investigations/defenders/police-investigating-officers-in-teachers-2015-arrest/279174704

 

 

 

There's dashboard footage.

 

 

 

That's my police department. This is just the latest. They are a disaster. I have to literally take anxiety meds whenever my 6 foot 2 inch son is out of my sight.

 

Now they are going after the women too, so I guess I have to take anxiety meds for myself.

[StaceyinLA]

I hear that your heart is not the way your initial post read.

 

However, can you understand people's reactions, especially in a situation as egregious as the current one, that a certain impression would be formed when, in your initial post in this thread, the one solution you offered that more of the victims of these crimes should have been locked up so they wouldn't have been out there where they got shot?

1) Even with a rap sheet, you don't deserve to be summarily executed.

2) It's true that had the victims been anywhere else, they wouldn't have been shot, so I don't really see the point.

I can understand your point and how that may have seemed that way, but I was using it as an example of what I think is part of an overall larger picture of a broken system. I do believe I clarified multiple times that I do NOT believe that excused what happened, nor do I believe the police would be justified just because a person was a criminal with a record.

[MotherGoose]

And in comparison, when I started teaching in a Black school (in a decade, I had five kids total who weren't Black), I was stopped several times as a young, white woman-to make sure I wasn't lost and didn't need assistance. The assumption was that I wasn't safe driving in a neighborhood that my students had to walk to school through. When we had late band concerts, etc, my male co-workers and fathere would volunteer to escort me to my car to make sure I was safe-but young mothers with multiple children were expected to walk alone through what was considered a rough area due to drug related crimes. Other white teachers had similar responses.

 

It bothered me that apparently my safety was considered of greater value than those of the people who lived there-or that I was considered to be that much less capable of taking care of myself!!

When I was a social worker (white) I volunteered to see a client in an all-black , violence ridden neighborhood late in the afternoon in winter. She was a black female, and told me, "Honey, you need to be out of here before it gets dark." I do think her (probably correct) assumption was that I couldn't take care of my 24 year old naive white self as well as the residents. Or that I wasn't used to the violence, which I of course wasn't.

[SproutMamaK]

Ugh, so he didn't want to kill the therapist, he wanted to kill the autistic man with a toy truck. Because before shooting someone, while being told "all he has is a toy truck" repeatedly by the therapist, he couldn't be bothered to actually check if the man was holding a gun. And because the poor man seemed to be getting more and more upset. Huh, wonder why that could have been. And he was such a poor shot that he hit the wrong person... and if he hadn't, how many people would have justified the shooting as reasonable?

This whole situation is so many degrees of messed up. It shows just how desperately better training is needed. It's disturbing that people who are this poorly trained are in positions of authority with guns in their hands.

[Caroline]

Idk why the handcuffs. We don't see that in the video either. If I was shot like that, I'd be really pissed off and possibly not in a nice frame of mind with the person who shot me. If I was shot in the leg, I'd be highly tempted to punch the throat of the guy who shot me when he got close enough. Maybe the cop handcuffed him just to avoid the possibility of the guy lashing out at him? Idk, but I could sorta understand that.

That is ridiculous.

[Ravin]

Well, maybe that's true, but I think at some point, after a certain number of offenses (and he had been arrested 3 times within 10 months prior to his death), you'd think maybe some type of rehabilitation program or something would come into play. I just think it's a broken system when someone with that many arrests/convictions is on the streets and continually breaking the law.

 

Let me clarify; I know this doesn't apply to every situation. This one happens to be right here in my front yard so it weighs on me more I guess. I just feel like this was a horrible thing that happened and horrible things have stemmed from it, and maybe, just maybe if all aspects of the system worked, we could put a stop to some of the madness.

 

You know what your kind of thinking leads to?

 

A man sentenced to life without parole for shoplifting a jacket.

 

But at least he isn't likely to be shot to death in the street by police, since he's safely behind bars, right?

[ktgrok]

I was kind of surprised to see the cop didn't miss with a handgun, it was a rifle. I expect (perhaps wrongly) better accuracy with a rifle. 

[fdrinca]

I don't understand what you mean by "bad apples" in Dallas. 

 

Sorry, I threw this comment out while trying to get breakfast on the table, so it's just a partial thought.

 

I've just found, in the commentary on my Facebook feed and news article comments, at least, examples of black-on-police retaliation become conflated with a illegitimization of the BLM movement. That is, **any** black action that tends toward violence or serious protest (Oakland march) now represents **all** of BLM, and even if BLM disavows support or if the protestors disavow BLM, they are united by their shared blackness. 

 

I disagree with this POV. 

 

I just wonder why it is so difficult to see rogue actors both in the police force and in the protest movements as not representative of the entire group. OK, no, I don't wonder why it is so difficult - I know why. I know how easy is to generalize. I just wish it weren't so.

[TechWife]

In a rare lapse, I had the tv news on and they were saying the officer intended to shoot the man sitting bc they had a call that a man with a gun was threatening suicide. The officer released a statement to this effect, but there will still be an investigation. It *sounds* like the officer thought he was facing a "suicide by cop" type situation.

 

The sitting man was talking very not nice to the man on the ground. I could hear him easier than the man on the ground. And the cop was much further away. I wonder if he didn't hear/see it the same.

 

I'm not surprised the cop missed or that he may have fired 3 times. Most cops are not trained as sharp shooters and even sharp shooters miss in the heat of the moment while in motion. I have no issue with better training of cops in general regardless though.

 

 

 

It sounds like you're trying to find a way to justify this shooting. Your assumptions make no sense. 

Since when do people threatening suicide get shot? I have heard no indication that they thought it was "suicide by cop." I don't know how you got that idea. If the officer was indeed aiming for the man with autism, why in the world would he do that? Because he was "talking not very nice?" So what. It is the officers job to try to understand the situation.  You expect cops to miss when they shoot someone? I don't. I'd be appalled if that were an acceptable standard. 

 

My son has ASD. Sometimes he talks "not very nice" to me, but he shouldn't be shot for it. Absurd. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by TechWife

[maize]

I wonder...what would happen if half our police force were female?

 

Having been in the military, I've seen what sometimes happens when an entire group culture is testosterone driven.

 

I'm also wondering though--aren't there countries where most police do not pack firearms? I suppose those are also places where ordinary citizens are not typically walking around armed. We do have our entire culture to deal with.

 

Just musing.

[bettyandbob]

 

I'm also wondering though--aren't there countries where most police do not pack firearms? I suppose those are also places where ordinary citizens are not typically walking around armed. We do have our entire culture to deal with.

 

Just musing.

 

 

The police in the Republic of Ireland do not carry firearms. (This is big contrast with Northern Ireland) They do carry a stick and I have witnessed such a stick in use quite effectively. 

 

I don't think police in the US can go to no firearms though. Not when the average citizen can purchase and carry around some serious weapons. 

[Murphy101]

How does saying this might have been a terrible error of judgement justify this shooting?

 

Not being surprised that in the stress of the moment a cop doesn't sharp shoot like on tv does not justify it. It's nothing more than being a realist.

 

Contemplating that the cop might have honestly misread the situation does not justify it. It happens. Usually not with someone gunshot, but it does happen.

 

Saying how I think my city has a good policy that can help reduce such problems, but they have to fight every single year to convince the public to budget for maintaining it, does not justify this other case.

 

Saying how diabetic approached police to address their needs might not be a bad idea for the autistic associations too, does not justify his case either.

 

We can either presume to villify this cop and stereotype all cops as villains or we can look at this more critically and decide what can be done to prevent this happening again.

 

I'm not okay the man was shot or that the autistic man might have been. But I'm also not okay with vilifying all cops while expecting them to be trained to have perfect aim at all times, medics, social workers, and now also special needs trained. And for cheap too. While dodging bullets themselves.

 

I see a lot of problems in this case. But not very many seem to care about addressing them so much as vilifying the cop as a hater of black people.

[hornblower]

I wonder...what would happen if half our police force were female?

 

Having been in the military, I've seen what sometimes happens when an entire group culture is testosterone driven.

 

I'm also wondering though--aren't there countries where most police do not pack firearms? I suppose those are also places where ordinary citizens are not typically walking around armed. We do have our entire culture to deal with.

 

Just musing.

 

Have you seen Happy Valley? Anyone who hasn't, it's on Netflix. Go and watch the first 5 mins or so Season 1, Episode 1. 

 

Catherine doesn't have a gun. She talks down a distressed guy in the opening scene - a brilliant scene which introduces her and also demonstrates what non escalating police action can look like. 

 

In Canada, every time a police officer draws their weapon, whether they use it or not, they have to report it & fill out paperwork & it's subject to a review because there are guidelines that govern when an officer can draw their weapon. That said, we've had our share of non justifiable actions, including the horrific Dziekanski case (where they tasered a distressed man), and several cases recently of shots fired at people clearly suffering from mental illness, who either didn't appear to pose a threat to anyone or only to themselves. 

[Miss Peregrine]

Have you seen Happy Valley? Anyone who hasn't, it's on Netflix. Go and watch the first 5 mins or so Season 1, Episode 1.

 

Catherine doesn't have a gun. She talks down a distressed guy in the opening scene - a brilliant scene which introduces her and also demonstrates what non escalating police action can look like.

 

.

It looks like that a lot. Every day.

 

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20740975,00.html

Here is an article about an officer in my husband's dept. He has de-escalated over 200 would-be suicides in San Francisco. He should be training officers. Maybe he is. I think the article is a few years old.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Miss Peregrine

[TravelingChris]

THere is a wide difference in how much education and training is required before becoming a law enforcement officer.  THe great majority of officers never fire their weapons ever in their career.

[hornblower]

It looks like that a lot. Every day.

 

http://www.people.com/people/mobile/article/0,,20740975,00.html

Here is an article about an officer in my husband's dept. He has de-escalated over 200 would-be suicides in San Francisco. He should be training officers. Maybe he is. I think the article is a few years old.

 

oh it sure does. I know this officer : http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20040603&slug=rookie03e

[dirty ethel rackham]

This evening, dh was flipping through channels (hunting and gathering, he calls it) and was watching an old Andy Griffith show.   Here we have Barney Fife who always goes off half-cocked, always over-reacting.  Then you have the calm voice of reason, Sheriff Andy.  And tonight's episode had a much more stressful situation where Andy thinks he may need his gun (which is incredibly rare in this show.)  It got me thinking ... it appears that there are way too many Barney Fife's and not enough like Andy.  Only they are playing with deadly fire instead of comedy. 

 

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but this is an important essay on the whole of policing of minorities.  And this is is a relatively affluent town with a low crime rate.  http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/naperville-sun/ct-nvs-being-black-naperville-america-st-0715-20160714-story.html

 

 

Liking this for everything but the handuffed thing.  This is the routine they are supposed to follow for LEO shootings, at least in Florida.  Perhaps the regulation should be changed, but that was the "correct" thing to do.

What the ... Wha?  Baffling!

Edited July 22, 2016 by dirty ethel rackham

[TechWife]

How does saying this might have been a terrible error of judgement justify this shooting?

 

 

 

You didn't say that. 

[hornblower]

so, just because it's topical 

some stats put in a graph:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn7TIU6XEAEPk9t.jpg

and 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn7Y7XXWIAAwXzO.jpg

[Ravin]

Handcuffing a person you do not have at least reasonable suspicion of having committed a crime should not be policy. Treating people like animals in the name of "officer safety" is unacceptable, whether you've shot them or not. 

[sarahmama]

I think this organization has done a lot of fantastic work in the San Diego area and it would be wonderful to see their work expanded to other regions. http://www.comresearch.org/pert.php

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[December]

??? "Clearly" to who? I think many people would look at him and not automaticly think Hispanic. I didn't. And just the other day I had a FB conversation with someone about this. They were saying a painting of BVM looked very not white, which they liked, because they felt a more middle eastern/African mix would be more accurate. Which is fine by me, but I thought she looked VERY white. But then I thought, well she looks very Italian in this image to me... Are Italians white? I mean technically that's Mediterranean. Right? Which has quite the skin shade spectrum? It was an interesting conversation has every discussed the exact same image and couldn't decide ethnicity. Lol

 

 

Well, if it's not clear what race he is, then they shouldn't identify him as "white" either.  It seemed to me like they were clearly trying to say, "Hey, look, the person we tried to shoot was white, see we're not being racist!"  Like that makes it okay.

Edited July 22, 2016 by December

[SKL]

My only thought is the camera is way to the left of everything, on the side of the therapist. The cop is way to the right, even further away. Maybe he couldn't hear the therapist???  

 

But yeah, you don't save someone's life, like he was claiming, by taking a shot and then shooting that person. 

 

Yeah, it seems possible that the cop couldn't hear or see well enough to tell what was going on.

 

But that being the case, I don't understand shooting.

 

Hopefully the investigation will make everything clear.

 

BTW I very much support training the cops about special needs and how they can make things look like something more dangerous, and strategies to deal even if the individual is holding a weapon.  I know many cops have had this experience and dealt with it well.  But others have been tragedies.

[SKL]

Also, I like the way the police chief makes a point of identifying the autistic man as a white male, when he clearly appears to be Hispanic.

 

He looks middle Eastern or South Asian to me.

 

BTW Hispanic is not a "race" or color, it is an ethnicity.  Most Hispanic people in the US self-identify as "white."  People have no problem referring to George Zimmerman as "white" though he is Hispanic / of Peruvian [iirc] ancestry.  I think if the cops are trying to make a point about race here, it is that they weren't targeting a black guy.  I haven't heard anyone chanting "Hispanic lives matter" recently.

 

[bibiche]

BTW Hispanic is not a "race" or color, it is an ethnicity.

 

The whole idea of race is constructed. There is human variation. Period.

http://www.understandingrace.org/home.html

[Laurie4b]

I don't think we can say it was bogus in the sense that the caller probably actually thought there was illegal, dangerous situation going on vs. a malicious call to stir up trouble for someone.  But people bring their own biases and baggage into how they interpret and report situations.  The police can't assume that every detail that comes through by a citizen reporting a potential crime is correct and accurate regardless of whether or not the caller seems sincere. 

 

In this case, I haven't seen any reports that say either the autistic man or the assistant had a weapon of any kind.  Police should be better trained to actually assess the situation as they come into it.  I don't get the sense that the police were ever in any kind of danger in this situation. 

 

This is the piece that was missing in this case, in Tamir Rice's case, in the case of Crawford--the man with an air soft gun talking on a phone in Walmart, the case of the mentally ill man shot in Ferguson days after Michael Brown, and others. There was lack of independent assessment and lack of taking a stance that allowed for assessment in the first place. 

 

I worked in mental health settings and one of those was with the most violent teenagers in our state---who were also mentally ill and/or mentally handicapped. There were two times when my life was sufficiently threatened that had I had a gun, I would have been justified in shooting; however, as it turns out (since I'm typing this) there were less lethal means of keeping me safe (as well as the teen.) 

 

An acronym from my mental health days was APIE: Assess, plan, implement evaluate, Another principle was "least intrusive" intervention.

 

There were at least 3 LEO vehicles present. We saw plenty of video time for some level of assessment before shots were fired. Don't police have binoculars and radios to communicate with each other? Someone had the angle to see the toy through binoculars ---we could see through fuzzy witness video that it was long and light colored, 

 

So with John Crawford in Walmart: ;least intrusive intervention would be to clear the store. They knew where the man was. Secure a perimeter around the subject . That would give them the few seconds they needed for observation and to first make verbal contact in a way the man could hear. Instead they rushed him . Since he was innocent, and startled with an ambush, he ran and ended up dead. 

 

Tamir Rice: they put their lives in danger by driving right up to within a few feet of the alleged suspect. There was no one around when they arrived. They didn't take the few extra seconds for assessment that would have saved his life or been more likely to preserve theirs had he really been armed.

 

Etc.

[bettyandbob]

 

Saying how diabetic approached police to address their needs might not be a bad idea for the autistic associations too, does not justify his case either.

 

 

Many groups that support disabilities do this in different geographic areas. Not all law enforcement takes advantage. Additionally it is not the responsibility of the special group to make sure the police know how to respond appropriately.

 

Law enforcement groups should be seeking this training. Not waiting for various support groups to ask "do you want to learn about people who have xxx?" The responsibility is on the police to know about the who live, work and visit in their community.

[Carrie12345]

He looks middle Eastern or South Asian to me.

 

BTW Hispanic is not a "race" or color, it is an ethnicity.  Most Hispanic people in the US self-identify as "white."  People have no problem referring to George Zimmerman as "white" though he is Hispanic / of Peruvian [iirc] ancestry.  I think if the cops are trying to make a point about race here, it is that they weren't targeting a black guy.  I haven't heard anyone chanting "Hispanic lives matter" recently.

 

Depending on the form at hand, Hispanic/Latino (and no matter how sensitive I try to be, I still can't figure out when or where which term is appropriate) people aren't given much choice on how to identify themselves.  I've seen white, black, Asian, or Hispanic.  I've seen subcategories of white/non-Hispanic and white Hispanic.  Less frequently, I see Hispanic as an additional qualifier that can be applied to any "race".  Form design could theoretically have people labeling their identity differently each time!  And that's without even considering people of mixed heritage.  In many, many cases, they have to choose which "fraction of themselves" to use.

 

Even as a white mutt, the US census stuff annoys *me.  I don't remember 2000, but I got picked for the detailed crap in 2010, and they insisted I had to pick non-American identifiers for my family. I'm like 1/16th to 1/8th of a bunch of stuff, and some of those 1/8ths are from combos across the tree, not a specific great-grandparent!  Dh is at most 1/4th of anything.  My kids are straight up granny quilts!  So I told the census guy I was picking at random.

 

For people to be put in that situation at every turn is just dumb.  

 

Many of my neighbors, including all of the kids on my block but my own, are Dominican.  Culturally, they *clearly identify as Hispanic/Latino.  Visually, they're mostly dark skinned.  I don't care how they choose to self-identify, but you bet your butt I worry about how others see them.

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

I agree with everything you say here Laurie. When I stated it to a friend, who is the wife of a LEO, she said no. That the public expects them to protect them, so if there is a call about a shooter who is possibly dangerous they have to act right away, because they would be blamed if the suspect shot someone while they were evaluating. I don't agree, but that is what she and other law enforcement people are saying. Which honestly seems crazy...it's appointing a bystander as the judge and jury. 

This is the piece that was missing in this case, in Tamir Rice's case, in the case of Crawford--the man with an air soft gun talking on a phone in Walmart, the case of the mentally ill man shot in Ferguson days after Michael Brown, and others. There was lack of independent assessment and lack of taking a stance that allowed for assessment in the first place. 

 

I worked in mental health settings and one of those was with the most violent teenagers in our state---who were also mentally ill and/or mentally handicapped. There were two times when my life was sufficiently threatened that had I had a gun, I would have been justified in shooting; however, as it turns out (since I'm typing this) there were less lethal means of keeping me safe (as well as the teen.) 

 

An acronym from my mental health days was APIE: Assess, plan, implement evaluate, Another principle was "least intrusive" intervention.

 

There were at least 3 LEO vehicles present. We saw plenty of video time for some level of assessment before shots were fired. Don't police have binoculars and radios to communicate with each other? Someone had the angle to see the toy through binoculars ---we could see through fuzzy witness video that it was long and light colored, 

 

So with John Crawford in Walmart: ;least intrusive intervention would be to clear the store. They knew where the man was. Secure a perimeter around the subject . That would give them the few seconds they needed for observation and to first make verbal contact in a way the man could hear. Instead they rushed him . Since he was innocent, and startled with an ambush, he ran and ended up dead. 

 

Tamir Rice: they put their lives in danger by driving right up to within a few feet of the alleged suspect. There was no one around when they arrived. They didn't take the few extra seconds for assessment that would have saved his life or been more likely to preserve theirs had he really been armed.

 

Etc.

 

[SKL]

Depending on the form at hand, Hispanic/Latino (and no matter how sensitive I try to be, I still can't figure out when or where which term is appropriate) people aren't given much choice on how to identify themselves.  I've seen white, black, Asian, or Hispanic.  I've seen subcategories of white/non-Hispanic and white Hispanic.  Less frequently, I see Hispanic as an additional qualifier that can be applied to any "race".  Form design could theoretically have people labeling their identity differently each time!  And that's without even considering people of mixed heritage.  In many, many cases, they have to choose which "fraction of themselves" to use.

 

Even as a white mutt, the US census stuff annoys *me.  I don't remember 2000, but I got picked for the detailed crap in 2010, and they insisted I had to pick non-American identifiers for my family. I'm like 1/16th to 1/8th of a bunch of stuff, and some of those 1/8ths are from combos across the tree, not a specific great-grandparent!  Dh is at most 1/4th of anything.  My kids are straight up granny quilts!  So I told the census guy I was picking at random.

 

For people to be put in that situation at every turn is just dumb. 

 

I know, I face this with my kids, who are indigenous Central American biologically, but not being raised in a Latino culture.

 

I've never been a fan of defining people by race / color, but if someone insists that it's relevant to the situation, I will push back on incorrect / illogically used labels.

 

Nowadays whenever there's a police-involved shooting, people want to know whether the shooter or the person shot (or shot at) was black, because that's the kind of encounter that is making the news these days.  So I assume that's why the cops noted whatever they noted.

[Laurie4b]

I agree with everything you say here Laurie. When I stated it to a friend, who is the wife of a LEO, she said no. That the public expects them to protect them, so if there is a call about a shooter who is possibly dangerous they have to act right away, because they would be blamed if the suspect shot someone while they were evaluating. I don't agree, but that is what she and other law enforcement people are saying. Which honestly seems crazy...it's appointing a bystander as the judge and jury. 

 

That may well be the training in your area. And it's why I keep harping on the training theme. Police following poor protocols make poor decisions and are rightfully cleared of wrongdoing as individuals. However, it seems that we as a society at that point, wash our hands of it instead of taking the next step of asking whether or not the protocols are just. Making sure "bad apples" face justice will only go so far..

 

innocent lives get taken either way. It shouldn't be the cops who took the innocent life-- just in case, 

 

But it's really a moot point in this case because there WAS enough time to find out the guy had a toy because the brief footage we were seeing took place before the shooting. That;s enough time to raise a pair of binoculars. 

[poppy]

How does saying this might have been a terrible error of judgement justify this shooting?

 

Not being surprised that in the stress of the moment a cop doesn't sharp shoot like on tv does not justify it. It's nothing more than being a realist.

 

Contemplating that the cop might have honestly misread the situation does not justify it. It happens. Usually not with someone gunshot, but it does happen.

 

Saying how I think my city has a good policy that can help reduce such problems, but they have to fight every single year to convince the public to budget for maintaining it, does not justify this other case.

 

Saying how diabetic approached police to address their needs might not be a bad idea for the autistic associations too, does not justify his case either.

 

We can either presume to villify this cop and stereotype all cops as villains or we can look at this more critically and decide what can be done to prevent this happening again.

 

I'm not okay the man was shot or that the autistic man might have been. But I'm also not okay with vilifying all cops while expecting them to be trained to have perfect aim at all times, medics, social workers, and now also special needs trained. And for cheap too. While dodging bullets themselves.

 

I see a lot of problems in this case. But not very many seem to care about addressing them so much as vilifying the cop as a hater of black people.

It's ok to just be outraged by this without reflexively reaching for a way to make the cop the victim.

[TechWife]

A contradictory statement from the police union. Wait, what? 

 

Rivera offered an explanation Thursday, saying that the police officer opened fire because he thought the white man, whom authorities later learned has autism, was going to harm Kinsey. 

"This wasn't a mistake in the sense that the officer shot the wrong guy or he thought that Kinsey was the bad guy," Rivera said in a press conference Thursday. 

"The movement of the white individual made it look like he was going to discharge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey and the officer discharged trying to strike and stop the white man and unfortunately, he missed the white male and shot Mr. Kinsey by accident."

 

 

Now, to my way of thinking, if you aim at one person and hit another person, you have "shot the wrong guy." No mention of the fact that he shouldn't have been shooting in the first place. "Authorities" should have known the man had autism, Mr. Kinsey was saying it as plain as day. 

 

Edited July 22, 2016 by TechWife