another police shooting - a therapist helping a man with autism

[hornblower]

"A North Miami police commander has been suspended for allegedly fabricating information about the shooting of an unarmed black therapist.

 

City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said Friday that commander Emile Hollant is suspended without pay.

Spring declined to give specifics about how Hollant allegedly fabricated information about Monday’s shooting of Charles Kinsey by Officer Jonathan Aledda."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-latest-union-head-says-officer-aimed-for-disabled-man/2016/07/22/2389598e-500b-11e6-bf27-405106836f96_story.html

[Ravin]

But they do. All. The. Time.

Because humans screw up and sometimes those screw ups have heavy consequences.

 

Medicine is a prime example. The sole purpose is to do no harm and heal people, but medical error is a huge factor in injury and death. But good luck getting the professionals responsible for the injury or death to ever say they did it wrong or are sorry. That almost never happens.

 

 

The analogy Laurie gave for addressing the problem rather than acting like human error is an inevitability which cannot be addressed is spot on in response to this:

 

Yes, exactly. 

 

We hold hospitals responsible for figuring out what led to medical errors. Most of the time, the solution is not to discipline the individual physician or nurse, though sometimes that is appropriate. Far more often, there is something about the system that made human error more likely. We expect them to fix it. 

 

It's not good to be making the same mistake twice. The second mistake is preventable. 

 

I really don't want to see decent cops railroaded by a public calling for blood and am very uncomfortable when the community says it wants "a conviction." I am very comfortable with the community wanting justice. The fact is that significant change rarely follows one of these incidents. 

 

If I go back to the hospital analogy: if your loved one dies due to medical error and the doctor is a jerk about it, yes, people tend to want the doctor's head. However, with a physician who admits human error, most people feel they have justice if things are fixed so that it doesn't happen to someone else. I think this is a missing piece that helps drive our country into two sides Black Lives Matter vs. Blue Lives Matter. 

 

The fact is, both families of LEO and families of law-abiding black husbands, sons, and fathers feel fear that their loved one won't come home some night.  I believe the situation can be greatly improved, but it will take more than what has been done in most locales to bring about that level of change. 

 

Sadly, Dallas was one of the areas working hardest. 

[Guest]

But they do. All. The. Time.

Because humans screw up and sometimes those screw ups have heavy consequences.

 

Medicine is a prime example. The sole purpose is to do no harm and heal people, but medical error is a huge factor in injury and death. But good luck getting the professionals responsible for the injury or death to ever say they did it wrong or are sorry. That almost never happens.

We have yet to hear from the medical facility..their plan to protect and supervise this patient did not work. Perhaps someone called in sick, a walkie-talkie broke, who knows, but it sounds as if the facility did not request any form of assistance at all once the patient left the grounds.

[Ravin]

"A North Miami police commander has been suspended for allegedly fabricating information about the shooting of an unarmed black therapist.

 

City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said Friday that commander Emile Hollant is suspended without pay.

Spring declined to give specifics about how Hollant allegedly fabricated information about Monday’s shooting of Charles Kinsey by Officer Jonathan Aledda."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-latest-union-head-says-officer-aimed-for-disabled-man/2016/07/22/2389598e-500b-11e6-bf27-405106836f96_story.html

 

This article also mentions that a bystander with binoculars tried to tell the officers the autistic man was holding a toy truck, not a gun. They just told him to get back.

 

Why on EARTH is an anonymous/unidentified phone tip taken more seriously than the words coming out of the mouths of people AT THE SCENE?

[Ravin]

We have yet to hear from the medical facility..their plan to protect and supervise this patient did not work. Perhaps someone called in sick, a walkie-talkie broke, who knows, but it sounds as if the facility did not request any form of assistance at all once the patient left the grounds.

 

Why would someone walking away, who is still being monitored by staff, require more assistance? The man who was shot WAS all the assistance that should reasonably have been needed in this situation.

[obsidian]

We have yet to hear from the medical facility..their plan to protect and supervise this patient did not work. Perhaps someone called in sick, a walkie-talkie broke, who knows, but it sounds as if the facility did not request any form of assistance at all once the patient left the grounds.

??? An aide was WITH the autistic man. What more do you expect than a 1:1 aide when the autistic man was not dangerous? And the aide got shot, while trying to explain his patient's situation to the police.

 

ETA: Posted at the same time as Ravin. :)

Edited July 22, 2016 by STEM

[hornblower]

parenthetically, one thing that I'm finding a bit surprising is how some police officers don't seem to understand that they're often being taped (audio &/or video), frequently by their own equipment, and that other police officers will investigate their statements.  Their actions and their subsequent stories sometimes are as inane as those by the most naive and uninformed offenders. 

[FaithManor]

This article also mentions that a bystander with binoculars tried to tell the officers the autistic man was holding a toy truck, not a gun. They just told him to get back.

 

Why on EARTH is an anonymous/unidentified phone tip taken more seriously than the words coming out of the mouths of people AT THE SCENE?

Exactly!!! This sets a dangerous precedent. Your disgruntled neighbor calls 911 and says you are acting erratically and have a weapon. You are out in the garden hoeing sweet corn. You raise your hands in the air and yell, "It is only a hoe. I am weeding the garden." So of course you should be shot because you are obviously "scary" to the caller. God forbid we expect law enforcement to use even a shred of common sense! Sheesh.

[zoobie]

This article also mentions that a bystander with binoculars tried to tell the officers the autistic man was holding a toy truck, not a gun. They just told him to get back.

 

Why on EARTH is an anonymous/unidentified phone tip taken more seriously than the words coming out of the mouths of people AT THE SCENE?

And come on, surely some member of the police SWAT team has his/her own binoculars. Or the bystander would've let them use his instead of them shooting blindly at civilians!

[zoobie]

Exactly!!! This sets a dangerous precedent. Your disgruntled neighbor calls 911 and says you are acting erratically and have a weapon. You are out in the garden hoeing sweet corn. You raise your hands in the air and yell, "It is only a hoe. I am weeding the garden." So of course you should be shot because you are obviously "scary" to the caller. God forbid we expect law enforcement to use even a shred of common sense! Sheesh.

Wearing earbuds so you're rocking out and don't hear them.

 

There have been a couple of incidents around me where police entered a residence based on a 911 call about a possible robbery and shot the homeowner. One they went to the wrong address.

[Xahm]

My LEO dh deals with at least one mentally unstable or disabled (or both) person every day. Usually more. I can't imagine our area is so unusual. Something weird with the responding officers in this situation having no clue.

Does anyone know for sure that the same officer handcuffed as shot? The only reasonable explanation I can think of would be a different officer rushing up and assuming the injured party was a suspect. (Not that what's reasonable is always what happens, of course) My dh has responded to a lot , some confused and violent, and cuffing is not the routine here.

[TechWife]

We have yet to hear from the medical facility..their plan to protect and supervise this patient did not work. Perhaps someone called in sick, a walkie-talkie broke, who knows, but it sounds as if the facility did not request any form of assistance at all once the patient left the grounds.

You have no evidence to support this allegation. The man has a one on one behavioral specialist with him at all times. The behavioral therapist was with him at the time of the shooting. It is not uncommon for people with autism to wander or run. 

 

In fact,  We have heard from the group home: 

"Mr. Kinsey is a hero today. He saved the life of that disabled individual," said Bower, who runs the center for the developmentally disabled where Kinsey has worked for more than a year.

"This individual he was caring for is a person with significant behavioral issues, and Charles was specifically chosen to work with this individual as his one-on-one staff, because he is that much of a skilled employee," Bower said. "He has received extensive crisis intervention training. Unfortunately, our police department doesn't seem to have received that same training." 

 

It is not the job of the group home to protect their clients or their employees FROM THE POLICE! Can we stop victim blaming now? 

Edited July 22, 2016 by TechWife

[Guest]

??? An aide was WITH the autistic man. What more do you expect than a 1:1 aide when the autistic man was not dangerous. And the aide got shot, while trying to explain his patient's situation to the police.

I expect enough help that the patient can be returned to the facility without endangering other lives. The protocol for the group home in my neighborhood does not allow patients to wander off grounds, as its dangerous when they walk out in traffic. If they leave, adequate assistance is summoned. That may be staff, or it may be law enforcement. Its more than one aide, and someone else on staff would know a patient and aide have departed.

 

No one is victim blaming. We are asking what happened. We know there are protocols, and a behavior aide isnt expected to solo on a city street, steps away from traffic, in returning a patient to safety in my state. Perhaps that is not the case in Florida. Maybe a reporter will get to that aspect of the story one day.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[TX Native]

Wearing earbuds so you're rocking out and don't hear them.

 

There have been a couple of incidents around me where police entered a residence based on a 911 call about a possible robbery and shot the homeowner. One they went to the wrong address.

Did the police officer then proceed to handcuff the homeowner IN CASE the homeowner retaliated in violence???

[TechWife]

I expect enough help that the patient can be returned to the facility without endangering other lives. The protocol for the group home in my neighborhood does not allow patients to wander off grounds, as its dangerous when they walk out in traffic. If they leave, adequate assistance is summoned. That may be staff, or it may be law enforcement. Its more than one aide, with no one knowing the patient and aide have departed.

 

What makes you think that the gentleman should have been returned to the group home? Believe it or not, disabled people have rights. They can walk around the neighborhood in which they live. The only thing he did wrong was sitting in the road. If instead, the police had secured the area (yes, if they had stopped traffic), then it is highly likely his assistant would have been successful in getting him off the road. In truth, you have no idea what the protocol is at the home, so you just need to stop. 

[TX Native]

Just like group homes MIGHT have policies for 2 aides to assist in that situation, it was also policy on a hospital floor I worked on to have a certain number of patients/caregiver. Someone calls out sick, the ratio gets ignored, and people fuss about the neglectful care in hospitals. The neglect was never the caregiver's fault. In no way, would I fault the group home facility for the situation at hand even if 2 aides were supposed to be present.

Edited July 22, 2016 by TX native

[Guest]

What makes you think that the gen leman should have been returned to the group home? Believe it or not, disabled people have rights. They can walk around the neighborhood in which they live. The only thing he did wrong was sitting in the road. If instead, the police had secured the area (yes, if they had stopped traffic), then it is highly likely his assistant would have been successful in getting him off the road. In truth, you have no idea what the protocol is at the home, so you just need to stop.

I have a very good idea since the pd informed my neighborhood when they moved the group home in.

 

I agree disabled people have rights. Here, they do not have the right to walk in the road admidst traffic. Neither do non disabled people.

 

And speaking of rights, if you dont like opinions other than your own, just s.o.b. Telling others to shut up is inappropriate.

[zoobie]

Did the police officer then proceed to handcuff the homeowner IN CASE the homeowner retaliated in violence???

The articles didn't say. Both were responding to wrong addresses. One (last month) was an older man who pulled out his gun thinking someone had broken in. Police saw the gun and shot him. He's dead. The other (last fall?) homeowner survived, but the police killed the family dog and also shot one of its own fellow officers. Homeowner didn't have a gun; he had come downstairs after hearing noises.

[zoobie]

I have a very good idea since the pd informed my neighborhood when they moved the group home in.

 

I agree disabled people have rights. Here, they do not have the right to walk in the road admidst traffic. Neither do non disabled people.

 

And speaking of rights, if you dont like opinions other than your own, just s.o.b. Telling others to shut up is inappropriate.

So because the man with disabilities interrupted traffic, it's okay for police to shoot his aide?

[MamaBearTeacher]

Group homes have tiny budgets. The staff is not paid very much and there is often a high turnover. Anyways this is a case of a police officer not using his brain and shooting someone completely innocent. He could have killed the man. I do sometimes wonder what kind of person gets to be a police officer. I know there are good ones out there but there are too many who are too trigger-happy.

[TX Native]

 

I agree disabled people have rights. Here, they do not have the right to walk in the road admidst traffic. Neither do non disabled people.

Very small children don't have rights to run out into the road either. But are you going to fault every parent who has a child that breaks away and runs into the street as an unfit parent? A group home that has a disabled resident break protocol and wander into the street does not need to be judged for finding out the disabled man rwandered off and sent someone to attempt to get him to return. If the group home is not a lockdown facility, there is no way the staff can ensure no resident ever wanders off any more than a mom of 6 can ensure none of her children ever run out of her home and into the street unless she dead bolts the doors.

[Stacia]

Re: wanting the police who make mistakes to take responsibility &/or doctors in medical settings....

 

While I agree that is the ideal, we live in a very litigious society. People who "mess up" are so scared of implicating themselves &/or the organizations for whom they work, they have probably been told not to say anything, not to admit anything, to defer questions, etc.... Often, I think statements that are released are prepared by the legal team (for the organization), not by the responsible individual anyway.

 

I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I think that's the way it is, realistically, & it will remain that way for a long time to come (unless there are seismic shifts in the mindset & legalities re: these things).

[TX Native]

Group homes have tiny budgets. The staff is not paid very much and there is often a high turnover. .

From the video, I think the therapist was doing an outstanding job of trying to de escalate the situation. I could tell the man was great at his job. The way he spoke to the autistic man and police was very professional even in the most stressful of situations. I hope he gets a big raise! I would hope for him to get a promotion, but there are few people that have a gift to work in his position and the position is definitely his gifting.

[HomeAgain]

We have a group home in our neighborhood.  In fact, there was a huge hoopla when it was announced that one was going to move in.  People did not want mildly disabled adults walking around their streets.  Seriously.  The home has a 2:4 ratio for staff to residents.  They are located within walking distance of a medical office. 

When they first moved in it was a little confusing for the residents.  The houses look very similar to each other.  A few instances of one or two accidentally walking into a neighbor's house had half the people living here squawking about petitioning them to leave.  The staff does a great job, but there are only two of them on duty at any given time.

 

What is most interesting to me is that many of the people I know here have children on the spectrum or with other disabilities.   And I'm wondering how many of their children may end up in a similar home in the future.  What kind of support is adequate for group homes to run?  Will we have to revert back to institutions and locking people up so we don't see them?  It's obvious that group homes aren't a perfect solution, and people don't want them around.  Police don't know how to deal with different disabilities, and if their training on it is the same as their training in de-escalation, we certainly cannot let disabled people into the general world and give them basic human rights, independence at their level, and a way to practice life skills.  That would be impractical and dangerous. 

[TX Native]

Re: wanting the police who make mistakes to take responsibility &/or doctors in medical settings....

 

While I agree that is the ideal, we live in a very litigious society. People who "mess up" are so scared of implicating themselves &/or the organizations for whom they work, they have probably been told not to say anything, not to admit anything, to defer questions, etc.... Often, I think statements that are released are prepared by the legal team (for the organization), not by the responsible individual anyway.

 

I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I think that's the way it is, realistically, & it will remain that way for a long time to come (unless there are seismic shifts in the mindset & legalities re: these things).

Exactly this. I made a medical error that did no harm to a patient once. I reported it immediately and felt guilty forever. Even the doctor tried to make me feel better. He said it was nothing. I performed all the steps required by the facility as follow up to a medical error. The facility wrote me up and said in the report that my actions put the facility and the patient in danger. Wow! A coworker told me I should have never reported the incident, but I didn't feel right about that. I had no idea if I did everything right after a human error that I would be considered a bad employee. Why in the heck do they tell you to fill out an incident report after a medical error if they don't expect you to ever make an error?

 

Eta: this may be why this case tugs my heart strings. The man who got shot did EVERYTHING RIGHT and was still shot and cuffed by the "good guys" without explanation. The man is having a very hard time coming to terms with that and I completely understand. And to bring up that maybe the group home was at fault for not keeping a closer eye on the residents or not having 2 aides to assist just makes me more flustered! Anyone have chill pills to spare? My husband is due home soon so I'm leaving this thread a bit. I will try to read on when I can hopefully be more objective.

Edited July 22, 2016 by TX native

[dirty ethel rackham]

You have no evidence to support this allegation. The man has a one on one behavioral specialist with him at all times. The behavioral therapist was with him at the time of the shooting. It is not uncommon for people with autism to wander or run. 

 

In fact,  We have heard from the group home: 

"Mr. Kinsey is a hero today. He saved the life of that disabled individual," said Bower, who runs the center for the developmentally disabled where Kinsey has worked for more than a year.

"This individual he was caring for is a person with significant behavioral issues, and Charles was specifically chosen to work with this individual as his one-on-one staff, because he is that much of a skilled employee," Bower said. "He has received extensive crisis intervention training. Unfortunately, our police department doesn't seem to have received that same training." 

 

It is not the job of the group home to protect their clients or their employees FROM THE POLICE! Can we stop victim blaming now? 

 

Amen!  It seems that so many people are grasping at straws, looking for ways to exonerate the police.  I guess this is part of the whole "othering" ... if we can find fault with someone else, then we can feel safer ... that it won't happen to us since we are such good, law-abiding people that would never find ourselves in a situation where we could be in a confrontation with police.  But the news that has been released is showing us that you can do everything right and still find yourself on the wrong end of a gun ... and not from a criminal, but by someone authorized by the state to be your judge and jury. 

 

I have a very good idea since the pd informed my neighborhood when they moved the group home in.

 

I agree disabled people have rights. Here, they do not have the right to walk in the road admidst traffic. Neither do non disabled people.

 

And speaking of rights, if you dont like opinions other than your own, just s.o.b. Telling others to shut up is inappropriate.

s

But the punishment for being in the middle of the street should not be death or bodily harm.  And they did send someone to help get him.  So, if a mom goes out into the street to get a toddler who happened to be carrying a piece of toast that they ate into the shape of a gun, should she be worried about getting shot?  No, of course not, unless, of course, she is the wrong color.  Or, God-forbid, a dad of the wrong color. 

 

Re: wanting the police who make mistakes to take responsibility &/or doctors in medical settings....

 

While I agree that is the ideal, we live in a very litigious society. People who "mess up" are so scared of implicating themselves &/or the organizations for whom they work, they have probably been told not to say anything, not to admit anything, to defer questions, etc.... Often, I think statements that are released are prepared by the legal team (for the organization), not by the responsible individual anyway.

 

I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I think that's the way it is, realistically, & it will remain that way for a long time to come (unless there are seismic shifts in the mindset & legalities re: these things).

 

The City of Chicago is finding that it is much more expensive to cover up and minimize than it is to apologize and try to make things right.  They had tried to avoid litigation by hiding video of shootings and it will end up costing them way more than it would have cost them to reach out to the family, share what they knew, do a public mea culpa and make changes.  But, they are resisting the changes that had been recommended over and over again by task force after task force and it is costing them big time.  The last PBS show I saw on this issue said that less than 10% of Chicago police officers had any crisis intervention training.  The big push has been bullet-proof vests, not de-escalation techniques. 

[Ravin]

I expect enough help that the patient can be returned to the facility without endangering other lives. The protocol for the group home in my neighborhood does not allow patients to wander off grounds, as its dangerous when they walk out in traffic. If they leave, adequate assistance is summoned. That may be staff, or it may be law enforcement. Its more than one aide, and someone else on staff would know a patient and aide have departed.

 

No one is victim blaming. We are asking what happened. We know there are protocols, and a behavior aide isnt expected to solo on a city street, steps away from traffic, in returning a patient to safety in my state. Perhaps that is not the case in Florida. Maybe a reporter will get to that aspect of the story one day.

 

An adult group home is not a jail. The staff are not prison guards.

[TX Native]

One more thing, this case also bothers me because I have worked with 2 black guys that were wonderful men. Both have gotten unjust treatment from cops. One was late for work one day because the neighborhood convenience store was robbed after he walked out and someone reported seeing a black man speed away in a blue car. He had got cuffed and taken in just because he had recently picked up a coke there on his way to work and happened to drive away in a blue car. He used his one call to call the boss at the low paying job to explain why he didn't show up to work. They caught the real robber soon after and let him go. He came into work even though the boss would have excused him for the day, or week for that matter.

Edited July 22, 2016 by TX native

[Ravin]

Did the police officer then proceed to handcuff the homeowner IN CASE the homeowner retaliated in violence???

 

I heard of a case near where I live of a single mom who was arguing with her 12 yo. A neighbor called police. Meanwhile, mom got in the shower. Police came to do a "welfare check", knocked on the door and announced that they were police. Mom cracked the door to answer, sopping wet and wrapped in a towel.

 

When she refused the (male) officer entry to her home, where she was wet and naked and lives only with her daughter, he shoved the door open, knocking her to the floor and injuring her, and put her in handcuffs, in front of her daughter.

 

Illegal entry, and this kind of treatment of someone who had done NOTHING wrong, when he had NO exigent circumstances (the argument was over, he didn't hear any yelling or distress), only an unverified report from a neighbor, and in the end it was determined that his actions were justified for officer safety.

 

And she wasn't even black.

 

This is the world we live in, people. Every time more excuses are accepted as justification made for blatantly cruel, harmful, or wrong conduct by police towards members of the community, either by accident or because it was "protocol for officer safety," or done in the name of protecting others, we inch closer to living in a police state. Some would argue we already do.

[ktgrok]

.

 

This is the world we live in, people. Every time more excuses are accepted as justification made for blatantly cruel, harmful, or wrong conduct by police towards members of the community, either by accident or because it was "protocol for officer safety," or done in the name of protecting others, we inch closer to living in a police state. Some would argue we already do.

 

yes, this is basically the argument being given to me by people I know in Law Enforcement or related to them. Which is crazy. Again, letting a random call be judge and jury!

[Mrs. Tharp]

I love this article about the police and institutional racism. Oh, and the author put his name to the article too!

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer

[zoobie]

I have a very good idea since the pd informed my neighborhood when they moved the group home in.

 

I agree disabled people have rights. Here, they do not have the right to walk in the road admidst traffic. Neither do non disabled people.

 

And speaking of rights, if you dont like opinions other than your own, just s.o.b. Telling others to shut up is inappropriate.

 

I'm usually up on interwebs lingo, but what does s.o.b. mean?

[hornblower]

I'm usually up on interwebs lingo, but what does s.o.b. mean?

 

scroll on by 

[Ravin]

Amen!  It seems that so many people are grasping at straws, looking for ways to exonerate the police.  I guess this is part of the whole "othering" ... if we can find fault with someone else, then we can feel safer ... that it won't happen to us since we are such good, law-abiding people that would never find ourselves in a situation where we could be in a confrontation with police.  But the news that has been released is showing us that you can do everything right and still find yourself on the wrong end of a gun ... and not from a criminal, but by someone authorized by the state to be your judge and jury. 

 

s

But the punishment for being in the middle of the street should not be death or bodily harm.  And they did send someone to help get him.  So, if a mom goes out into the street to get a toddler who happened to be carrying a piece of toast that they ate into the shape of a gun, should she be worried about getting shot?  No, of course not, unless, of course, she is the wrong color.  Or, God-forbid, a dad of the wrong color. 

 

 

The City of Chicago is finding that it is much more expensive to cover up and minimize than it is to apologize and try to make things right.  They had tried to avoid litigation by hiding video of shootings and it will end up costing them way more than it would have cost them to reach out to the family, share what they knew, do a public mea culpa and make changes.  But, they are resisting the changes that had been recommended over and over again by task force after task force and it is costing them big time.  The last PBS show I saw on this issue said that less than 10% of Chicago police officers had any crisis intervention training.  The big push has been bullet-proof vests, not de-escalation techniques. 

 

The individual officer at this point is fully within his 5th amendment rights to say nothing, when he is being investigated for a crime. 

 

People are much less likely to sue in tort when they feel that people who have harmed them are honestly admitting a mistake/wrongdoing towards them. Mea Culpa and a settlement that includes making real changes will cost less in the long term than spin control.

 

But people reacting to crisis don't tend to think long term, even when institutions need them to.

[Ravin]

Re: wanting the police who make mistakes to take responsibility &/or doctors in medical settings....

 

While I agree that is the ideal, we live in a very litigious society. People who "mess up" are so scared of implicating themselves &/or the organizations for whom they work, they have probably been told not to say anything, not to admit anything, to defer questions, etc.... Often, I think statements that are released are prepared by the legal team (for the organization), not by the responsible individual anyway.

 

I don't like it. I don't agree with it. But I think that's the way it is, realistically, & it will remain that way for a long time to come (unless there are seismic shifts in the mindset & legalities re: these things).

 

For the system to work, there must be mechanisms to catch it when individuals cover up wrongdoing, and covering up wrongdoing must have consequences more severe than admitting mistake. 

[bettyandbob]

And this has taken on the message that my intellectually disabled ds must be chained to the house. He should never be a member of his community even if it is mentally healthy for him to be out. Because the second he wanders he or I need to be shot for endangering the safety of the community. God forbid I want to leave the house because it is also mentally healthy for me to leave the house.

 

There appear to be a few people on this list who would like non-neurotypical people to be shut away once again.

[goldberry]

We have a person in our small town with schizophrenia.  His mother lives here, and when he is doing better he lives with her, but often is just out on the streets.  You can see him walking and talking to himself (or imaginary others) often.  Occasionally he gets in the streets and has disrupted traffic.  The police here are very good at talking to him and getting him to stay on the sidewalks. They have never pulled a weapon on him.  No one has been shot at this point.  It's possible.

Edited July 23, 2016 by goldberry

[goldberry]

People are much less likely to sue in tort when they feel that people who have harmed them are honestly admitting a mistake/wrongdoing towards them. Mea Culpa and a settlement that includes making real changes will cost less in the long term than spin control.

 

But people reacting to crisis don't tend to think long term, even when institutions need them to.

 

I agree with this, but often it is the institutions encouraging the denial.  It's a vicious circle... victims would sue less if people admitted their mistakes, but people (or institutions) won't admit mistakes because of fear of being sued.

 

Several years ago my dad had some very bad complications from surgery that seemed questionable to us.  There were some in our circle encouraging us to sue.  When my dad met with the doctor several months after, the doctor just flat out said, "I absolutely wouldn't handle such and such the same way again.  I'm sorry you had all those complications." (greatly simplified of course).  But for my dad, that was that.  He wouldn't have sued in a million years after that.

[Laurie4b]

"A North Miami police commander has been suspended for allegedly fabricating information about the shooting of an unarmed black therapist.

 

City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said Friday that commander Emile Hollant is suspended without pay.

Spring declined to give specifics about how Hollant allegedly fabricated information about Monday’s shooting of Charles Kinsey by Officer Jonathan Aledda."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-latest-union-head-says-officer-aimed-for-disabled-man/2016/07/22/2389598e-500b-11e6-bf27-405106836f96_story.html

 

Wow. Just wow.  

 

I wonder why there was reason to fabricate....

 

I am just thanking God that the man was "only" shot in the leg. And frankly that is tragic, that I am more relieved that he isn't dead than I am shocked that this happened at all. I'm not shocked. Incredibly frustrated but not shocked. 

 

And I am very glad that this very credible victim is ALIVE and can actually tell his side of the story. And I am glad that there were non LEO witnesses on the scene as well. 

[Laurie4b]

Total speculation: 

 

I wonder if the cop who shot has PTSD. He is on the SWAT team. If your adrenaline gets pumping, you literally get tunnel-vision. You cannot take in details and data. That would explain the refusal to listen to the person with binoculars as well as his "I don't know" answer to why he shot the man. If he had kind of flipped into an alternate track, he might not know at that moment. 

 

You would think if he shot him by accident that he would be saying, "I am so sorry! I shot you by accident! I don't know how that happened. I am so, so, sorry." If he said all that, it's strange that the victim would only remember "IDK" because when I heard him interviewed, he was clearly feeling helpless and puzzled about why it happened at all. If he'd gotten the "oops" explanation, at least he would have had some way to begin to make sense about what had happened. 

[LucyStoner]

And I do think the special needs community [caregivers, families, spokesmen] would be well-advised to get involved in making sure the cops get training. Even if it isn't their responsibility legally, it would be in the interest of their community.

Yes, because besides being Special Education advocates,and funding/insurance lobbyists, and taking care of the 24/7 demands of caring for their children etc, families with special needs kids have a crap ton of extra time to work for police reform. Most people with special needs children are exhausted and the organizations that lobby for them are often under resourced and focusing on very immediate needs, like funding to keep crucial services in place.

 

I don't think that training is the core issue here. I think it's the quality of officers hired and the cultural norms in a department. Police here already get fairly extensive diversity, sensitivity and descalation training. Yet our department is operating under a consent degree requiring federal oversight for disproportional policing, bias and excessive force. Training has not and will not solve the issue from what I have watched unfold.

[TechWife]

Yes, because besides being Special Education advocates,and funding/insurance lobbyists, and taking care of the 24/7 demands of caring for their children etc, families with special needs kids have a crap ton of extra time to work for police reform. Most people with special needs children are exhausted and the organizations that lobby for them are often under resourced and focusing on very immediate needs, like funding to keep crucial services in place.

 

 

:hurray:  :hurray:  - I couldn't have said it better myself! 

[Innisfree]

And this has taken on the message that my intellectually disabled ds must be chained to the house. He should never be a member of his community even if it is mentally healthy for him to be out. Because the second he wanders he or I need to be shot for endangering the safety of the community. God forbid I want to leave the house because it is also mentally healthy for me to leave the house.

 

There appear to be a few people on this list who would like non-neurotypical people to be shut away once again.

(((Diana and Son)))

 

I find my daughter and I may be in the same position.

 

She is a delightful, sweet, loving girl, who is comfortable in her community, but she does have autism. She has occasionally gotten upset when she was outside our home. Silly me, my biggest worry has always been that a passing stranger would misunderstand the situation and call CPS when, as a younger child, she was melting down and I was trying to restrain her from running into a parking lot.

 

Because we're white, I may not need to worry about the police. (Maybe.) Heaven help the families for whom that is a legitimate worry.

 

But I guess I still need to worry about the neighbors.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Innisfree

[Carrie12345]

Our local autism center posted on Facebook today, reaching out to offer training to police, fire, and EMS.

[SKL]

If the cop was telling the truth about missing, I'm super glad he missed.  Maybe God decided that bullet wasn't going to hit its target.  Sorry the other guy took a bullet, but thankfully it was not life-threatening.

 

I have to admit that the first thing I thought was maybe the bullet ricocheted.  I guess forensics can tell if that happened.

[catz]

Yes, because besides being Special Education advocates,and funding/insurance lobbyists, and taking care of the 24/7 demands of caring for their children etc, families with special needs kids have a crap ton of extra time to work for police reform. Most people with special needs children are exhausted and the organizations that lobby for them are often under resourced and focusing on very immediate needs, like funding to keep crucial services in place.

 

I don't think that training is the core issue here. I think it's the quality of officers hired and the cultural norms in a department. Police here already get fairly extensive diversity, sensitivity and descalation training. Yet our department is operating under a consent degree requiring federal oversight for disproportional policing, bias and excessive force. Training has not and will not solve the issue from what I have watched unfold.

 

I agree with the first part of this post whole heartedly.  LEO's are public servants paid with taxpayer money.  They have an obligation and a duty to know their community and who they are serving. 

 

On the 2nd part, training has been mentioned here in the Philandro Castile case and the ongoing training the officers have received does not look responsible and well rounded to me.  So I'm sure that varies by area.  It is a complex problem though and I have no doubt it can be grounded in any number of issues including department/leadership culture, mindset of those who chose to be LEO's,  questionable recruitment (heard an interesting story on NPR about this recently), etc.  Each case probably has it's own story.

 

The Castile case is interesting.  Falcon Heights (location of the shooting) as painted as this idyllic suburb of 5000.  The St. Anthony Police is contracted to patrol Falcon Heights.  The road Philandro Castile was pulled over on borders Saint Paul and some extremely diverse communities.  St. Anthony is a very quiet suburb with an aging white population.  Falcon Heights is very nice, but it's just this little strip of land that borders the city.  I would think the police there would really need to be in tune with some urban issues that the patrolling department from St. Antony may not.  The intersection where he was shot is close enough to my house, I drove through it like 12 times on a busy day this week (still has a standing memorial).  So that's why this case is really in my face.  The Saint Paul police has actually made some strides in handling diverse communities IMO. 

 

[Joshin]

In some areas, at least, there is more than litigation that leads to officers covering up mistakes or even their own crimes :( There is the "brotherhood" that closes ranks when one of their own screws up. Not saying this is an issue everywhere, of course. Our city has been having issues with this the last few years. Some officers ethically disagree with closing ranks, of course, and they have come out and told the truth about situations or turned in their coworkers (and some have seen their job cut or responsibilities lessened because of it). A friend's DH was one that spoke out on a recent officer-involved ethics issue that became a full-fledged public scandal and he has suffered retaliation within the force as a result. Fortunately, it seems to be getting better because of the few good officers that are speaking up regardless of the repercussions.

[brehon]

In some areas, at least, there is more than litigation that leads to officers covering up mistakes or even their own crimes :( There is the "brotherhood" that closes ranks when one of their own screws up. Not saying this is an issue everywhere, of course. Our city has been having issues with this the last few years. Some officers ethically disagree with closing ranks, of course, and they have come out and told the truth about situations or turned in their coworkers (and some have seen their job cut or responsibilities lessened because of it). A friend's DH was one that spoke out on a recent officer-involved ethics issue that became a full-fledged public scandal and he has suffered retaliation within the force as a result. Fortunately, it seems to be getting better because of the few good officers that are speaking up regardless of the repercussions.

 

This is a really huge issue. I've unfortunately been involved in incidents in my professional life where my partner(s) and I were put in the position of either corroborating an officer's version of events or contradicting it. Each time it's been a non-choice for me; I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I broke one of my core guiding principals. My partner(s) have struggled with their decisions; but, each time opted to do the right thing. I'm not PD and I did suffer some consequences. I'll say that none of these incidents involved shooting anyone nor ended up in a trial (nor really should have).

 

I can only imagine the pressure officers are under to present a united front no matter what and the suffering the brave officers endure because of speaking out.

Edited July 23, 2016 by brehon

[LucyStoner]

I should probably clarify that I wasn't intending to convey that training is useless. That's how it came across as I re-read my words though so I want to add to them a bit. I'm definitely not saying training should be scrapped, but that it's not the whole issue and training can become a rote, meaningless obligation or even a bit of a joke if the culture is not supportive of the goals.

 

-I think it is incumbent on the law enforcement agencies and the government that supervises them to allocate the time and financial resources for training. Advocacy groups who are selected to help police trainers develop the trainings or in some cases deliver the trainings though deserve compensation. We can not add yet another thing for special needs or community anti-bias groups to work on unfunded.

 

-if the culture of the department or the mindset of the officers attending the trainings is dismissive of the need for the trainings then they are of limited utility. I've been to mandatory work related trainings and I am sure that police have to go to more than I ever needed to. Most of the trainings I attended for work were things I was open to. Some were not. Some seemed like a waste of my time. Clicking through an online sexual harassment training, sitting around all afternoon with all of my coworkers discussing their spirit animals...not helpful. If people don't take it seriously or it gets made into a bit of a joke, it's not going to help. Listening to friends who are with the police force or have left it I have heard about cops who didn't take trainings perceived as "PC" seriously. That culture is why one of my former colleagues was working in my field after quitting the police force. The departmental culture can quickly render trainings of very limited usefulness.

 

-hiring people with stronger educations, communication and deescalation skills is important. At least in my area the data indicates that cops with 4 year degrees and higher test scores are less likely to face excessive force or bias complaints. Starting cops here make more than what many 4 year graduates do. In my city I think it's time to raise the bar and require new hires and cops not approaching retirement to get a college education. The city should pay for it for cops on the job and offer student loan assistance to new hires (above and beyond what they are already offered with pslf). I am not someone who blames the police for the whole tamale here. Cities need to be willing to invest sufficient resources to get the best qualified people.

Edited July 23, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Innisfree]

I was thinking about this thread and what the Dallas Police Chief said about asking the cops to do too much.

 

“We’re asking cops to do too much in this country,†Brown said at a briefing Monday. “We are. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. … Here in Dallas we got a loose dog problem; let’s have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, let’s give it to the cops. … That’s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.â€

 

 

Some of these issues come with the job and some do not. A good % of calls are related to mental health, issues, there's no getting around that. So unless they plan to call someone qualified to deal with them, the police need to be able to handle these situations on their own. It's not ideal, but it is their job.

 

 

And then there's this

"Police officials also suspended Commander Emile Hollant without pay for what North Miami City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said were inconsistencies in his statements about the shooting. Officials wouldn’t elaborate. "

 

A good percentage of calls relating to mental health issues.... YES. This. In the broadest sense, my guess is the large majority of police calls are related to mental health issues.

 

Anger management, poor frustration tolerance, substance abuse that starts as self-medication for a wide range of issues, learning issues which have not been properly addressed and lead to unemployment and poverty... This is all axiomatic, right? If we could ensure that all children had all these issues identified and addressed, isn't it pretty clear that the police work load would plummet?

 

So I would think that police would need to assume that they are dealing with mental health issues constantly. Understanding how to do so should be an absolutely fundamental part of the job, not an extravagant extra.

 

'Course, proper funding and infrastructure to treat those issues before they reach the stage of needing police help would be nice, too.