another police shooting - a therapist helping a man with autism

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's crazy if they would not require reporting.  That is the least they can do in terms of oversight.  And even that's not perfect.  In our city the schools were on the persistently dangerous list.  A new super came along and announced that yay they are off.  No...they just stopped reporting everything.  :glare:

[Pawz4me]

Wish Mrs. Mungo was still around. She is a military wife and  I recall her posting that military are required to use de-escalation strategies unless directly engaged in combat with enemies and there was very strict criteria for any escalation. My recollection was that this was true when they were patrolling a city in Iraq for instance, even though they were aware there were pockets of guerilla groups who might attack. And to disobey the de-escalation protocol resulted in court-martial. I hope someone military is here who can better spell this out as I am relying on memory. 

 

But this would be an area in which actual military training of police could help. 

 

I recall her post about that, too. I was impressed. And shocked and saddened that there's such a disparity in what the military is required to do under those circumstances versus what often occurs here with LEOs.

[StaceyinLA]

I didn't really want to comment here because this conversation frustrates me. Certainly in this situation, it seems from what y'all are saying (I refuse to watch people's iPhone videos in which I cannot make a determination as to the overall threat of the situation because I am not the person putting my life on the line) that this shooting is unjustified. I hope if that is the case, proper action will be taken.

 

However, I just have to say that in regards to Baton Rouge and possibly some of the other incidents that have happened over the last couple years, if our court system was doing its job, these shootings wouldn't have happened.

 

Do I think the police needed to kill Alton Sterling? I can't say. Sure the video might look one way (again, I haven't and will not view it), but I wasn't the one in there with my life on the line so I refuse to be the judge. What I DO know is that Alton Sterling had 19 prior arrests, and if he was serving the appropriate time in prison, he wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.

 

I am not saying this because I believe he deserved to die, but I DO believe, with his record, he should have been imprisoned.

 

There is such a bigger picture; not only with police training, or lack thereof (and let's face it; if they got paid a decent wage and we invested tax dollars in better training, we'd probably have more of a pool of people to choose from to in the first place), but in a broken system that doesn't follow through with proper incarceration and/or rehabilitation of criminals. In an ideal situation, it would all work together.

 

Though I think some horrible situations have occurred, I know I am not putting my life on the line to protect others, so I am not going to put every cop on trial for the errors of a few. While I am certainly saddened at the thought of anyone dying, I am also outraged at the killing of police over the actions of a few.

 

Policemen deal with the worst of society on a regular basis. They see things most of us cannot fathom. They are out there right now being targeted while getting paid a minuscule living to protect us. I am sure they are being affected and acting out of some semblance of fear. While that certainly isn't the best thing, I believe it is an understandable reaction, and I'd love to see a solution. But I do think the bulk of them deserve a little more respect.

Edited July 21, 2016 by StaceyinLA

[Laurie4b]

I found some of the Mrs. Mungo threads. If you scroll down on this page, I had quoted her then, too. (Her posts had made quite an impression!)

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/535041-similar-situations-different-police-protocolstactics-different-results/

 

Post #29

 

Here's a paragraph from one of the articles linked in that post describing a situation in which the military de-escalated under circumstances in which not doing so would be understandable: 

 

Bravery inspires men, but brains and quick thinking win wars. In one particularly tense moment, a company of U.S. soldiers was preparing to guard the Mosque of Ali -- one of the most sacred Muslim sites -- when agitators in what had been a friendly crowd started shouting that they were going to storm the mosque. In an instant, the Iraqis began to chant and a riot seemed imminent. A couple of nervous soldiers slid their weapons into fire mode, and I thought we were only moments away from a slaughter. These soldiers had just fought an all-night battle. They were exhausted, tense, and prepared to crush any riot with violence of their own. But they were also professionals, and so, when their battalion commander, Chris Hughes, ordered them to take a knee, point their weapons to the ground, and start smiling, that is exactly what they did. Calm returned. By placing his men in the most non-threatening posture possible, Hughes had sapped the crowd of its aggression. Quick thinking and iron discipline had reversed an ugly situation and averted disaster.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Laurie4b

[Sneezyone]

I didn't really want to comment here because this conversation frustrates me. Certainly in this situation, it seems from what y'all are saying (I refuse to watch people's iPhone videos in which I cannot make a determination as to the overall threat of the situation because I am not the person putting my life on the line) that this shooting is unjustified. I hope if that is the case, proper action will be taken.

 

However, I just have to say that in regards to Baton Rouge and possibly some of the other incidents that have happened over the last couple years, if our court system was doing its job, these shootings wouldn't have happened.

 

Do I think the police needed to kill Alton Sterling? I can't say. Sure the video might look one way (again, I haven't and will not view it), but I wasn't the one in there with my life on the line so I refuse to be the judge. What I DO know is that Alton Sterling had 19 prior arrests, and if he was serving the appropriate time in prison, he wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.

 

I am not saying this because I believe he deserved to die, but I DO believe, with his record, he should have been imprisoned.

 

There is such a bigger picture; not only with police training, or lack thereof (and let's face it; if they got paid a decent wage and we invested tax dollars in better training, we'd probably have more of a pool of people to choose from to in the first place), but in a broken system that doesn't follow through with proper incarceration and/or rehabilitation of criminals. In an ideal situation, it would all work together.

 

Though I think some horrible situations have occurred, I know I am not putting my life on the line to protect others, so I am not going to put every cop on trial for the errors of a few. While I am certainly saddened at the thought of anyone dying, I am also outraged at the killing of police over the actions of a few.

 

Policemen deal with the worst of society on a regular basis. They see things most of us cannot fathom. They are out there right now being targeted while getting paid a minuscule living to protect us. I am sure they are being affected and acting out of some semblance of fear. While that certainly isn't the best thing, I believe it is an understandable reaction, and I'd love to see a solution. But I do think the bulk of them deserve a little more respect.

 

The thing is that having multiple arrests does not mean you're a hardened criminal who deserves to be in prison. It can be that, but it doesn't have to mean that. I'm not speaking specifically about any person either.  Disproportionate law enforcement has resulted in thousands of people having multiple arrests for minor or trumped-up infractions. That's what stop and frisk was intended to do. Generate tons of summonses for the people who were targeted. That, in turn, led to fines that many could not pay, arrests for unpaid fines, etc. etc. Your comments are based on the presumption that every stop, detention or arrest record is legitimate. They are not. Perhaps if you had actually seen some of these snuff films, you'd appreciate why so many are so outraged.

 

In this country, civilian oversight of government, including law enforcement, is an important value. We should not abdicate that responsibility because it makes us uncomfortable to view what's being done in our names.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sneezyone

[obsidian]

I found some of the Mrs. Mungo threads. If you scroll down on this page, I had quoted her then, too. (Her posts had made quite an impression!)

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/535041-similar-situations-different-police-protocolstactics-different-results/

 

Post #29

 

Here's a paragraph from one of the articles linked in that post describing a situation in which the military de-escalated under circumstances in which not doing so would be understandable:

 

Bravery inspires men, but brains and quick thinking win wars. In one particularly tense moment, a company of U.S. soldiers was preparing to guard the Mosque of Ali -- one of the most sacred Muslim sites -- when agitators in what had been a friendly crowd started shouting that they were going to storm the mosque. In an instant, the Iraqis began to chant and a riot seemed imminent. A couple of nervous soldiers slid their weapons into fire mode, and I thought we were only moments away from a slaughter. These soldiers had just fought an all-night battle. They were exhausted, tense, and prepared to crush any riot with violence of their own. But they were also professionals, and so, when their battalion commander, Chris Hughes, ordered them to take a knee, point their weapons to the ground, and start smiling, that is exactly what they did. Calm returned. By placing his men in the most non-threatening posture possible, Hughes had sapped the crowd of its aggression. Quick thinking and iron discipline had reversed an ugly situation and averted disaster.

Here's the section of the thread those quotes came from.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/534719-ferguson/?p=6042878

[hornblower]

I thought Sterling's last conviction was in 2011? 

You guys don't need to incarcerate more. You already put more people in prison than anyone else in the world! 

You need to work on poverty reduction, stop prosecuting drug addicts, expand drug treatment programs. 

And actually, I can fathom.

When I worked on the border, we saw a lot of bad things. Anyone can drive up, or walk up, or get off a bus - and back when I worked there, we weren't armed. 

[Guest]

From the economist article.

"Mr Fryer adds that blacks who were reported by cops as being perfectly compliant with police instructions during their interactions were still 21.1% more likely than whites to have some force used against them. This points to racial prejudice."

 

I wonder if the increase in awareness that the above is a problem has had (is having, will have) any affect on the number of actual shootings.

That's my hope. The death statistics are a good piece of data for keeping things in perspective and the equally so are the force during arrest statistics. Even accounting for a struggling or violent individual they are totally disproportionate to the other adjusted groups - something is going on in the way these suspects are being approached and apprehended that needs to be addressed. I'd say awareness of the discrepancy is a great place to start.

[Sneezyone]

I thought Sterling's last conviction was in 2011? 

 

You guys don't need to incarcerate more. You already put more people in prison than anyone else in the world! 

 

You need to work on poverty reduction, stop prosecuting drug addicts, expand drug treatment programs. 

 

And actually, I can fathom.

 

When I worked on the border, we saw a lot of bad things. Anyone can drive up, or walk up, or get off a bus - and back when I worked there, we weren't armed. 

 

One of recent shooting victims had been pulled over by local law enforcement more than 40 times. Seriously. He had zero convictions on his record and arrests only for unpaid fines and driving on a suspended license due to unpaid fines.

[hornblower]

I'm not sure it's right for people to be commenting on these killings while refusing to watch the evidence. I can understand why someone would not want to - but then IMO you need to stick to generalities and not discuss details of cases. 

[StaceyinLA]

The thing is that having multiple arrests does not mean you're a hardened criminal who deserves to be in prison. It can be that, but it doesn't have to mean that. I'm not speaking specifically about any person either. Disproportionate law enforcement has resulted in thousands of people having multiple arrests for minor or trumped-up infractions. That's what stop and frisk was intended to do. Generate tons of summonses for the people who were targeted. That, in turn, led to fines that many could not pay, arrests for unpaid fines, etc. etc. Your comments are based on the presumption that every stop, detention or arrest record is legitimate. They are not. Perhaps if you had actually seen some of these snuff films, you'd appreciate why so many are so outraged.

 

In this country, civilian oversight of government, including law enforcement, is an important value. We should not abdicate that responsibility because it makes us uncomfortable to view what's being done in our names.

I understand what you're saying, but Alton Sterling had arrests that warranted jail time. The fact that he had been arrested 3 weeks prior to the incident in BR, and had so many other arrests (including domestic violence and battery I believe), leads me to think he should've been serving some time.

 

I did watch a very small portion of the Alton Sterling video, and I saw some still shots someone did while analyzing the video. I still maintain that it is difficult to play judge and jury when you aren't the one handling a perpetrator with a weapon.

Edited July 21, 2016 by StaceyinLA

[obsidian]

One of recent shooting victims had been pulled over by local law enforcement more than 40 times. Seriously. He had zero convictions on his record and arrests only for unpaid fines and driving on a suspended license due to unpaid fines.

Philandro Castile: pulled over 52 times. The number of times he was pulled over is crazy to me. Granted, I am young, but I've never been pulled over, and I drive quite a lot.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stopped-52-times-by-police-was-it-racial-profiling/2016/07/09/81fe882a-4595-11e6-a76d-3550dba926ac_story.html

[Sneezyone]

I understand what you're saying, but Alton Sterling had arrests that warranted jail time. The fact that he had been arrested 3 weeks prior to the incident in BR, and had so many other arrests (including domestic violence and battery I believe), leads me to think he should've been serving some time.

 

I did watch a very small portion of the Alton Sterling video, and I saw some still shots someone did while analyzing the video. I still maintain that it is difficult to play judge and jury when you aren't the one handling a perpetrator with a weapon.

 

Again, you are speaking about one person. I made my remarks more general than that deliberately because these killings are occurring to people with arrest records and without, with their hands up and with their hands down. This is a systemic issue, not an individual one. None of the officers involved in these cases know of these prior interactions at the time these boys/men/women are killed.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sneezyone

[obsidian]

I understand what you're saying, but Alton Sterling had arrests that warranted jail time. The fact that he had been arrested 3 weeks prior to the incident in BR, and had so many other arrests (including domestic violence and battery I believe), leads me to think he should've been serving some time.

 

I did watch a very small portion of the Alton Sterling video, and I saw some still shots someone did while analyzing the video. I still maintain that it is difficult to play judge and jury when you aren't the one handling a perpetrator with a weapon.

He had been tased (so impossible to keep completely still) and was restrained on the ground. How much room for judgement is there?

[StaceyinLA]

I'm not sure it's right for people to be commenting on these killings while refusing to watch the evidence. I can understand why someone would not want to - but then IMO you need to stick to generalities and not discuss details of cases.

I lived in Baton Rouge the first 30 years of my life and now live 30 minutes from there. I have seen and heard plenty enough - believe me. I watched a still shot analysis of the entire video. I think it is horrific that someone would stand by and take a video of that scenario.

 

I saw enough in the video and analysis to make me believe that the cops probably could have contained Alton Sterling with killing him. I did NOT state, for one minute, that I supported the fact that they killed him. I merely stated that I believe he, as a criminal with 19 priors, shouldn't have been on the streets in the first place.

 

I also stated that I do not believe anyone merely sitting in the safety of their own home watching a video of the killing should be the judge and jury for the cops. It's quite a different ballgame, I'm sure, when your life is the one on the line.

[SKL]

The thing is that having multiple arrests does not mean you're a hardened criminal who deserves to be in prison. It can be that, but it doesn't have to mean that. I'm not speaking specifically about any person either.  Disproportionate law enforcement has resulted in thousands of people having multiple arrests for minor or trumped-up infractions. That's what stop and frisk was intended to do. Generate tons of summonses for the people who were targeted. That, in turn, led to fines that many could not pay, arrests for unpaid fines, etc. etc. Your comments are based on the presumption that every stop, detention or arrest record is legitimate. They are not. Perhaps if you had actually seen some of these snuff films, you'd appreciate why so many are so outraged.

 

In this country, civilian oversight of government, including law enforcement, is an important value. We should not abdicate that responsibility because it makes us uncomfortable to view what's being done in our names.

 

I don't want to confuse the issues because the victim here was no Alton Sterling.  One thing both situations had in common (based on reports I've read) was that someone called 911 and said a guy was waving or pointing a gun.  In the A. Sterling case there was in fact a gun in the arrestee's possession among other concerns.  In both cases, there's no question why the officer encounter occurred; it wasn't just to harass in either case.

 

[8circles]

I understand what you're saying, but Alton Sterling had arrests that warranted jail time. The fact that he had been arrested 3 weeks prior to the incident in BR, and had so many other arrests (including domestic violence and battery I believe), leads me to think he should've been serving some time.

 

I did watch a very small portion of the Alton Sterling video, and I saw some still shots someone did while analyzing the video. I still maintain that it is difficult to play judge and jury when you aren't the one handling a perpetrator with a weapon.

I think it's pretty arrogant to have such a strong opinion while refusing to watch the videos. The videos aren't the only evidence, but it is certainly highly relevant. You are privileged to be able to not see this kind of police brutality. Many people don't have that choice.

[StaceyinLA]

Again, you are speaking about one person. I made my remarks more general than that deliberately because these killings are occurring to people with arrest records and without, with their hands up and with their hands down. This is a systemic issue, not an individual one. None of the officers involved in these cases know of these prior interactions at the time these boys/men/women are killed.

I understand that, and I certainly don't know their histories either. I used his case as an example because I know a lot about it. And I never said the cops know their histories; I merely stated that if they've had that many prior arrests, they shouldn't be on the streets to begin with.

[Sneezyone]

I understand what you're saying, but Alton Sterling had arrests that warranted jail time. The fact that he had been arrested 3 weeks prior to the incident in BR, and had so many other arrests (including domestic violence and battery I believe), leads me to think he should've been serving some time.

 

I did watch a very small portion of the Alton Sterling video, and I saw some still shots someone did while analyzing the video. I still maintain that it is difficult to play judge and jury when you aren't the one handling a perpetrator with a weapon.

 

I can't really say anything more to you until you actually watch more of the films. There's a reason they made the Germans see footage of the Holocaust post-WWII. Denial is a powerful thing.

[StaceyinLA]

I think it's pretty arrogant to have such a strong opinion while refusing to watch the videos. The videos aren't the only evidence, but it is certainly highly relevant. You are privileged to be able to not see this kind of police brutality. Many people don't have that choice.

And my strong opinion isn't that his shooting was justified. In fact, I specifically stated that I don't believe killing him was warranted; merely that I don't believe he should have been on the streets with his arrest record.

 

Like I said, I live here. I have seen enough to know that *I* personally do not believe he should have been killed.

[hornblower]

The other thing that I think is getting lost in the 'fear narrative' is that police officer dying in the line of duty is down. 

For ex, comparing two 10 year periods. 

1980-1989 - avg 191/ year

2005-2015 - avg 160/ year

and, more deaths happen due to transportation causes  -  car accidents, being struck by cars, motorcycle accidents, bike accident etc, than being shot, stabbed or strangled 

see http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/29/461402091/number-of-police-officers-killed-by-gunfire-fell-14-percent-in-2015-study-says

& numbers here: http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html & http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

Edited July 21, 2016 by hornblower

[Sneezyone]

I don't want to confuse the issues because the victim here was no Alton Sterling.  One thing both situations had in common (based on reports I've read) was that someone called 911 and said a guy was waving or pointing a gun.  In the A. Sterling case there was in fact a gun in the arrestee's possession among other concerns.  In both cases, there's no question why the officer encounter occurred; it wasn't just to harass in either case.

 

 

Can we clear something up, please? Multiple people have already said that it's improbable that LEOs are setting out to kill people. Or setting out to harass people on a systemic basis, however, that is what's actually happening. That is happening. I would like us to find out why that is and stop it from happening again, not pretend there is no issue. The harassment is well documented. The disproportionate policing is well-documented.

 

You know what else those two men had in common besides bogus citizen 911 calls? Dark skin. I tend to believe that's not an insignificant factor. The data seems to bear that out. Why the need to hunt, and dig, into these folks' backgrounds for any reason why they deserved death? Why can't we step back, look at the systemic problem that we have with over policing, aggressive LE, and decrease the number of interactions that might lead to these deaths?

 

Unless the DOJ report in Ferguson is a complete lie, we know there are thousands of Philando Castiles out there who, on any given day, could end up dead simply because of the sheer number of interactions they have with LE...entirely undeserved interactions BTW.

[StaceyinLA]

I can't really say anything more to you until you actually watch more of the films. There's a reason they made the Germans see footage of the Holocaust post-WWII. Denial is a powerful thing.

I'm not in denial. Just because I have not watched his actual death on video does NOT mean I have no clue what went on. I saw enough. I seriously have ZERO clue how many times I will have to state that I DO NOT believe his killing was justified.

 

My initial comments were generalized comments about people having huge arrest records and being on the streets in spite of them. I stand by those comments. I think we have an issue with a lot of components of the system. Period.

[Sneezyone]

I'm not in denial. Just because I have not watched his actual death on video does NOT mean I have no clue what went on. I saw enough. I seriously have ZERO clue how many times I will have to state that I DO NOT believe his killing was justified.

 

My initial comments were generalized comments about people having huge arrest records and being on the streets in spite of them. I stand by those comments. I think we have an issue with a lot of components of the system. Period.

 

 

You insist on talking about one case as if it's completely representative of the entire problem. There are TONS of videos out there. The most recent being one of the most troubling. I can't go there with you. It can't be excused away.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sneezyone

[8circles]

And my strong opinion isn't that his shooting was justified. In fact, I specifically stated that I don't believe killing him was warranted; merely that I don't believe he should have been on the streets with his arrest record.

 

Like I said, I live here. I have seen enough to know that *I* personally do not believe he should have been killed.

I'm not even sure who you are talking about. I'm not referring to any one event.

 

But going back to your commentary on someone who should have been in jail anyway... no matter his record, the police are not supposed to be judge, jury, and executioner. Seems like that's way more serious than people asking police to de-escalate instead of shooting people - that's not being judge and jury. Yes, police have a very difficult, dangerous, and *very* important job. Please do it better. People are dying for nothing.

[StaceyinLA]

You insist on talking about one case as if it's completely representative of the entire problem. There are TONS of videos out there. The most recent being one of the most troubling. I can't go there with you. It can't be excused away.

No. I'm not. You are taking it that way. I am using it as an example of a possible issue, and certainly not comparing it at all to this most recent shooting (which I said in my very first post).

 

And I'm not trying to excuse a thing. I'd definitely appreciate it if you'd just refrain from "going there with me," since you can't seem to do anything but twist my words anyway.

[QueenCat]

I understand that, and I certainly don't know their histories either. I used his case as an example because I know a lot about it. And I never said the cops know their histories; I merely stated that if they've had that many prior arrests, they shouldn't be on the streets to begin with.

 

Do you really mean arrests? Or do you mean convictions? Two very different things. I could be arrested tomorrow for something I didn't do and then hopefully not be convicted. That arrest should NOT ever be held against me for ANYTHING in the future since I didn't do it and wasn't convicted.

[StaceyinLA]

I'm not even sure who you are talking about. I'm not referring to any one event.

 

But going back to your commentary on someone who should have been in jail anyway... no matter his record, the police are not supposed to be judge, jury, and executioner. Seems like that's way more serious than people asking police to de-escalate instead of shooting people - that's not being judge and jury. Yes, police have a very difficult, dangerous, and *very* important job. Please do it better. People are dying for nothing.

I wish you would stop taking that comment about him being in jail and using it as if I am condoning the policemen's actions. I have no clue if they even knew his record to begin with. My point was only that if the justice system were working properly, and he would've been in jail, this likely wouldn't have happened at all.

 

No I don't think he deserved to die or that the police are the ones who should take that into their hands even if they did know his history. What I think is the ENTIRE SYSTEM IS BROKEN; not just one part of it.

[hornblower]

I wish you would stop taking that comment about him being in jail and using it as if I am condoning the policemen's actions. I have no clue if they even knew his record to begin with. My point was only that if the justice system were working properly, and he would've been in jail, this likely wouldn't have happened at all.

 

No I don't think he deserved to die or that the police are the ones who should take that into their hands even if they did know his history. What I think is the ENTIRE SYSTEM IS BROKEN; not just one part of it.

 

 

See, I don't understand why you think he should have been in jail. I don't see on what basis you're making that determination. Just because he had numerous prior arrest and convictions and served time, why should he have been in jail? 

 

It's not like he was an escaped prisoner. He didn't have outstanding charges. He had been convicted and served his sentence. 

 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

I wish you would stop taking that comment about him being in jail and using it as if I am condoning the policemen's actions. I have no clue if they even knew his record to begin with. My point was only that if the justice system were working properly, and he would've been in jail, this likely wouldn't have happened at all.

 

No I don't think he deserved to die or that the police are the ones who should take that into their hands even if they did know his history. What I think is the ENTIRE SYSTEM IS BROKEN; not just one part of it.

 

For heaven's sake, if he were in jail, it would have just happened to someone else! It wasn't him, it's a systemic issue.

 

I apologize for my harshness tho.

 

Your line of thinking is incredibly frustrating to me because this issue puts my husband and son at risk. I am terrified for them when we return to the states. My dad, a 70yo vet has been pulled over and hog-tied on the side of the road without so much as an apology. He's a vet with sarcoidosis and looks like a bodybuilder but his lungs are shot and uses oxygen. None of that mattered.

 

You're presuming that just being a good guy with a clean record is going to save you from this fate. It won't. That's what me, and many others have seen and been saying for years. This week's shooting victim is just further proof of that. The stops, the harassment, the overly-aggressive LEO interactions are not because of a criminal record, or a depraved LEO heart. It's systemic, unaddressed bias and poor training, and it's killing people. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sneezyone

[StaceyinLA]

See, I don't understand why you think he should have been in jail. I don't see on what basis you're making that determination. Just because he had numerous prior arrest and convictions and served time, why should he have been in jail?

 

It's not like he was an escaped prisoner. He didn't have outstanding charges. He had been convicted and served his sentence.

 

 

 

 

Well, maybe that's true, but I think at some point, after a certain number of offenses (and he had been arrested 3 times within 10 months prior to his death), you'd think maybe some type of rehabilitation program or something would come into play. I just think it's a broken system when someone with that many arrests/convictions is on the streets and continually breaking the law.

 

Let me clarify; I know this doesn't apply to every situation. This one happens to be right here in my front yard so it weighs on me more I guess. I just feel like this was a horrible thing that happened and horrible things have stemmed from it, and maybe, just maybe if all aspects of the system worked, we could put a stop to some of the madness.

[Lb20inblue]

Now but yourself in AA shoes. You go to school. Follow and obey the laws. Do everything that everyone says you are suppose to do to not get shot. You still get shot. WTF. I can't think of anyone who would tolerate that. This happens over and over again.

 

My husband driving a newer jag got stopped by the police once a week trying to get back to from work. This continued for the entire duration of us living in that city. Is it his fault he drives a nice car? That he has to drive home from work? Why is he the only one getting stopped weekly? The only difference between us and anyone else at the time, was our skin color. This sucks. There is a problem.

 

I wish we could all at least see from this particular incident how crazy policing of AA in this country can be. I thank God that he is in stable condition. I thank God that this was caught on camera and we have a platform to show the world.

[Pam in CT]

re disproportionate stops / arrests / judiciary outcomes throughout the system:

One of recent shooting victims had been pulled over by local law enforcement more than 40 times. Seriously. He had zero convictions on his record and arrests only for unpaid fines and driving on a suspended license due to unpaid fines.

 

 

Philandro Castile: pulled over 52 times. The number of times he was pulled over is crazy to me. Granted, I am young, but I've never been pulled over, and I drive quite a lot.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stopped-52-times-by-police-was-it-racial-profiling/2016/07/09/81fe882a-4595-11e6-a76d-3550dba926ac_story.html

 

 

 

(Republican) South Carolina Senator Tim Scott -- one of only two black Senators -- last week spoke from the Senate floor to his colleagues and reported, among other incidents, that he'd been pulled over seven times within a year.

 

 

"I do not know many African-American men who do not have a very similar story to tell no matter their profession. No matter their income, no matter their disposition in life," he said.

 

He asked his Senate colleagues to "imagine the frustration, the irritation, the sense of a loss of dignity that accompanies each of those stops."

 

Scott also described walking into an office building on Capitol Hill and having an officer ask him to show his ID even though he wore a Senate pin.

While he is thankful he has not faced bodily harm, he said, "there is absolutely nothing more frustrating, more damaging to your soul than when you know you're following the rules and being treated like you are not...recognize that just because you do not feel the pain, the anguish of another, does not mean it does not exist."

 

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Pam in CT

[StaceyinLA]

For heaven's sake, if he were in jail, it would have just happened to someone else! It wasn't him, it's a systemic issue.

 

I apologize for my harshness tho.

 

Your line of thinking is incredibly frustrating to me because this issue puts my husband and son at risk. I am terrified for them when we return to the states. My dad, a 70yo vet has been pulled over and hog-tied on the side of the road without so much as an apology. He's a vet with sarcoidosis and looks like a bodybuilder but his lungs are shot and uses oxygen. None of that mattered.

 

You're presuming that just being a good guy with a clean record is going to save you from this fate. It won't. That's what me, and many others have seen and been saying for years. This week's shooting victim is just further proof of that. The stops, the harassment, the overly-aggressive LEO interactions are not because of a criminal record, or a depraved LEO heart. It's systemic, unaddressed bias and poor training, and it's killing people.

Okay, I understand what you are saying. I do realize what I'm relating to his particular situation will not necessarily work in every situation, and yes, that HAS to change.

 

I still think there are so many pieces to this puzzle because yes, the police need better training (and we need a larger pool of people to choose policemen from), but that won't happen with money for training, and money for paying a better wage. As far as the bias, I just think that's a human issue that we still have to solve as a people; that certainly isn't exclusive to police officers, though with a better selection process, they could screen better and weed that out.

 

I surely wish, as a society, we could figure out ways to come together and solve this.

[SKL]

The other thing that I think is getting lost in the 'fear narrative' is that police officer dying in the line of duty is down. 

 

For ex, comparing two 10 year periods. 

 

1980-1989 - avg 191/ year

 

2005-2015 - avg 160/ year

 

and, more deaths happen due to transportation causes  -  car accidents, being struck by cars, motorcycle accidents, bike accident etc, than being shot, stabbed or strangled 

 

see http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/29/461402091/number-of-police-officers-killed-by-gunfire-fell-14-percent-in-2015-study-says

 

& numbers here: http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html & http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

 

But they are up in the past two years, and especially the past 6.5 months, and if we're talking about fear, that's what is going to matter more.

 

[Sneezyone]

You want to talk about fear? Next spring we have to move back to the states. For three years we've been overseas. My husband is very eager to get his new lux out of storage and ride in comfort. Only, we're moving to an area where people were recommending 'diverse' schools with 8% minority enrollment. These would be my neighbors.

 

Are they going to see my DH coming and going early in the morning and late at night and call 911? When he goes out for his daily 5 mile jog at dawn, will he be called in for prowling? It's terrifying. Any given citizen can call him in as suspicious and I might lose my spouse.  Aside from keys to get back in, he doesn't run with ID and it wouldn't have a local address anyway. I told him to start wearing his Navy PT gear and uniform when out. I don't know what else to do. If the LEO who shot Philando could see a wide-set nose as he drove by, surely they can see DH's khakis and collar devices.

 

How ironic is it that I want my DH to keep his uniform on in an effort to make up for his skin, the one thing he can't change.

 

When does his fear, my fear, get to matter? When is it reasonable for us to freak out and spout off or any of the other reactions that people justify in LEOs?

 

The fear we live with is life and death, just as stressful, and completely unavoidable. Being black is not a job we can quit and it's not a fear 2 years in the making.

 

This is a life sentence.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

Can we clear something up, please? Multiple people have already said that it's improbable that LEOs are setting out to kill people. Or setting out to harass people on a systemic basis, however, that is what's actually happening. That is happening. I would like us to find out why that is and stop it from happening again, not pretend there is no issue. The harassment is well documented. The disproportionate policing is well-documented.

 

You know what else those two men had in common besides bogus citizen 911 calls? Dark skin. I tend to believe that's not an insignificant factor. The data seems to bear that out. Why the need to hunt, and dig, into these folks' backgrounds for any reason why they deserved death? Why can't we step back, look at the systemic problem that we have with over policing, aggressive LE, and decrease the number of interactions that might lead to these deaths?

 

Unless the DOJ report in Ferguson is a complete lie, we know there are thousands of Philando Castiles out there who, on any given day, could end up dead simply because of the sheer number of interactions they have with LE...entirely undeserved interactions BTW.

 

I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.  The police responded to a call about a guy acting dangerous with a gun.  I'm not saying Sterling's past was relevant to the cops' actions, but nor is unwarranted harassment relevant to this situation.  There are other very concerning things that need to be addressed here vs. drowned out by the harassment outrage.

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by SKL

[Pam in CT]

You want to talk about fear? Next spring we have to move back to the states. For three years we've been overseas. My husband is very eager to get his new lux out of storage and ride in comfort. Only, we're moving to an area where people were recommending 'diverse' schools with 8% minority enrollment. These would be my neighbors.

 

Are they going to see my DH coming and going early in the morning and late at night and call 911? When he goes out for his daily 5 mile jog at dawn, will he be called in for prowling? It's terrifying. Any given citizen can call him in as suspicious and I might lose my spouse.  Aside from keys to get back in, he doesn't run with ID and it wouldn't have a local address anyway. I told him to start wearing his Navy PT gear and uniform when out. I don't know what else to do. If the LEO who shot Philando could see a wide-set nose as he drove by, surely they can see DH's khakis and collar devices.

 

How ironic is it that I want my DH to keep his uniform on in an effort to make up for his skin, the one thing he can't change.

 

When does his fear, my fear, get to matter? When is it reasonable for us to freak out and spout off or any of the other reactions that people justify in LEOs?

 

The fear we live with is life and death, just as stressful, and completely unavoidable. Being black is not a job we can quit and it's not a fear 2 years in the making.

 

This is a life sentence.

 

I can't "like" this.

 

But I must acknowledge it.

[Pam in CT]

re disproportionate policing reflecting racial patterns:

I don't think this thread is the place for that discussion.  The police responded to a call about a guy acting dangerous with a gun.  I'm not saying Sterling's past was relevant to the cops' actions, but nor is unwarranted harassment relevant to this situation.  There are other very concerning things that need to be addressed here vs. drowned out by the harassment outrage.
 

 

It's a thread about a police shooting.  Of an unarmed person.  Who is black.

 

If not here, where would you say is the appropriate place to discuss the issue of racially disproportionate policing?  

 

 

The disconnect between the perspective of "there are race-based patterns of LEO encounters and outcomes" vs. the counter-perspective that "every incident is a singular one-off" is the subject, isn't it?

Edited July 21, 2016 by Pam in CT

[Katy]

But see, we have this subjective thing going, that the shooter only has to "feel" that he is being threatened.  Isn't that why the Trayvon Martin shooter got off?  And other police shooters have been acquitted?

 

They don't have to actually "be" threatened, they only have to "feel" threatened.  That is mind boggling to me.  How can the standard of acquittal be based on a subjective view of what someone feels rather than what actually occurs?   

 

In this environment, there could be many reasons to feel threatened.  And yet a police officer should be trained to assess the actual situation and not just their feelings.

The Trayvon shooter was completely different because he wasn't a LEO, he was just a guy using the stand your ground law.  If you hate the concept, I highly recommend NOT traveling into any stand your ground states.  Personally I usually feel safer when we do live in stand your ground states, because adults tend to treat other adults with a certain amount of deference and respect in them.  Acting threatening is grounds for being killed, so people tend not to act threatening. 

 

And as to LEO shootings, what is justified or not depends on the state, but often they must SEE or think they see a weapon themselves.  I know when my dad was a police officer he was shot at twice, and both times a person aimed and fired at him before he pulled a weapon.  He was very careful to make sure we knew that shooting to wound was only in movies, and that you should never pull a gun until you knew for certain it would either be your life or theirs, they were trying to kill you.  And to never even pull a weapon until you'd decided they needed to die.  He was an officer in Florida.  A relative who was an officer in the same department there was shot and killed by a criminal several years ago and as a result I am quite certain that Florida handles officer involved shootings much differently than other states though.

 

Agreed. That said, a (black) economics professor at Harvard looked at the numbers:

 

What shocked Mr Fryer was when he looked in detail at reports of police shootings. He got two separate research teams to read, code and analyse over 1,300 shootings between 2000 and 2015 in ten police departments, including Houston and Los Angeles. To his surprise, he found that blacks were no more likely to be shot before attacking an officer than non-blacks. This was apparent both in the raw data, and once the characteristics of the suspect and the context of the encounter were accounted for.

 

Mr Fryer dug deeper into the data. He combed through 6,000 incident reports from Houston, including all the shootings, incidents involving Tasers and a sample in which lethal force could have justifiably been used but was not. What he found was even more startling: black suspects appear less likely to be shot than non-black ones, fatally or otherwise.

 

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21702219-are-black-americans-more-likely-be-shot-or-roughed-up-police-quantifying-black-lives

 

Who cares if they are killed less frequently?  They are also treated much more harshly and with more suspicion.  Perhaps that harshness results in them being less likely to act threatening, but if your every interaction with police was to be treated like you are a threat rather than someone to be respected and protected, you're going to naturally see the police as an adversary rather than a friend. THAT is what needs to change. More community building, less treating innocent citizens like suspects.

 

 

I didn't really want to comment here because this conversation frustrates me. Certainly in this situation, it seems from what y'all are saying (I refuse to watch people's iPhone videos in which I cannot make a determination as to the overall threat of the situation because I am not the person putting my life on the line) that this shooting is unjustified. I hope if that is the case, proper action will be taken.

 

However, I just have to say that in regards to Baton Rouge and possibly some of the other incidents that have happened over the last couple years, if our court system was doing its job, these shootings wouldn't have happened.

 

Do I think the police needed to kill Alton Sterling? I can't say. Sure the video might look one way (again, I haven't and will not view it), but I wasn't the one in there with my life on the line so I refuse to be the judge. What I DO know is that Alton Sterling had 19 prior arrests, and if he was serving the appropriate time in prison, he wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.

 

I am not saying this because I believe he deserved to die, but I DO believe, with his record, he should have been imprisoned.

 

There is such a bigger picture; not only with police training, or lack thereof (and let's face it; if they got paid a decent wage and we invested tax dollars in better training, we'd probably have more of a pool of people to choose from to in the first place), but in a broken system that doesn't follow through with proper incarceration and/or rehabilitation of criminals. In an ideal situation, it would all work together.

 

Though I think some horrible situations have occurred, I know I am not putting my life on the line to protect others, so I am not going to put every cop on trial for the errors of a few. While I am certainly saddened at the thought of anyone dying, I am also outraged at the killing of police over the actions of a few.

 

Policemen deal with the worst of society on a regular basis. They see things most of us cannot fathom. They are out there right now being targeted while getting paid a minuscule living to protect us. I am sure they are being affected and acting out of some semblance of fear. While that certainly isn't the best thing, I believe it is an understandable reaction, and I'd love to see a solution. But I do think the bulk of them deserve a little more respect.

 

Arrests are not convictions.  I have a lot of cops that are friends and family, and I can tell you that FREQUENTLY when someone has a lot of arrests but not a lot of convictions (and to my knowledge there was only one, a statutory rape issue of a minor girl that happened more than 15 years ago in his case), it just means that the guy either causes or hangs out around trouble.  If he's around trouble, or people complain, and the cops get called and he's still there, and argues or insults police, he's probably going to get arrested for the night and released without charge the next morning. It happens a lot.  It prevents assault and murder.  There are many states that have rules where if there is a threat of violence or cops get called due to people fighting, at least ONE person is going to jail that night.  It doesn't mean there will be charges filed, it just lets people get a break from each other and sober up before someone gets killed.  30 years ago someone who routinely had issues like that might have been hospitalized for mental illness, but we don't have that sort of funding any more, so crazy people and addicts go to jail for the night, without charge.  It happens a lot.  It happens even more when it's cold.  There are homeless people who steal things on purpose just to get a warm spot, a shower, and a couple meals when it's cold.

 

BTW, this isn't exclusive to poor black neighborhoods.  I have more than once heard police ranting about dumb high school boys who wanted to fight or "riot" and who wouldn't scatter and stop causing trouble when police showed up and told them to.  Frequently if they don't go away from whatever trouble they are causing, they force police to arrest them, just to prevent escalating violence.  Cops hate this sort of thing, it just gets the kid a record and creates a lot of paperwork, but if people won't respect police and LEAVE the area of trouble, the police have no choice but to arrest someone.

 

 

Well, maybe that's true, but I think at some point, after a certain number of offenses (and he had been arrested 3 times within 10 months prior to his death), you'd think maybe some type of rehabilitation program or something would come into play. I just think it's a broken system when someone with that many arrests/convictions is on the streets and continually breaking the law.

 

Let me clarify; I know this doesn't apply to every situation. This one happens to be right here in my front yard so it weighs on me more I guess. I just feel like this was a horrible thing that happened and horrible things have stemmed from it, and maybe, just maybe if all aspects of the system worked, we could put a stop to some of the madness.

 

There is no funding for rehab programs like that.  I agree there should be, but the system is broken.  They don't exist.  Also, just being on the street selling bootlegged CD's or whatever is not really worthy of prison.  Even if you're in a poor area where you're more likely to get harassed and get into conflicts with other people who should be getting treatment, and as a result the police are called on you more frequently.

 

You really should watch the video.  You'll stop defending the police in this particular case.  I'm almost always on the side of cops, and in both of those cases this situation is heart-breakingly terrible.

[hornblower]

re disproportionate policing reflecting racial patterns:

 

It's a thread about a police shooting. Of an unarmed, autistic person. Who is black.

 

If not here, where would you say is the appropriate place to discuss the issue of racially disproportionate policing?

 

 

The disconnect between the perspective of "there are race-based patterns of LEO encounters and outcomes" vs. the counter-perspective that "every incident is a singular one-off" is the subject, isn't it?

Just to clarify, the victim of the shooting is the behavior therapist, and an older black male; the person shot was not the person with autism.

[Laurie4b]

Okay, I understand what you are saying. I do realize what I'm relating to his particular situation will not necessarily work in every situation, and yes, that HAS to change.

 

I still think there are so many pieces to this puzzle because yes, the police need better training (and we need a larger pool of people to choose policemen from), but that won't happen with money for training, and money for paying a better wage. As far as the bias, I just think that's a human issue that we still have to solve as a people; that certainly isn't exclusive to police officers, though with a better selection process, they could screen better and weed that out.

 

I surely wish, as a society, we could figure out ways to come together and solve this.

 

 

I hear that your heart is not the way your initial post read.

 

However, can you understand people's reactions, especially in a situation as egregious as the current one, that a certain impression would be formed when, in your initial post in this thread, the one solution you offered that more of the victims of these crimes should have been locked up so they wouldn't have been out there where they got shot?

1) Even with a rap sheet, you don't deserve to be summarily executed.

2) It's true that had the victims been anywhere else, they wouldn't have been shot, so I don't really see the point. 

[Pam in CT]

Just to clarify, the victim of the shooting is the behavior therapist, and an older black male; the person shot was not the person with autism.

 

Yes, thank you, will go back and clarify.

[8circles]

You want to talk about fear? Next spring we have to move back to the states. For three years we've been overseas. My husband is very eager to get his new lux out of storage and ride in comfort. Only, we're moving to an area where people were recommending 'diverse' schools with 8% minority enrollment. These would be my neighbors.

 

Are they going to see my DH coming and going early in the morning and late at night and call 911? When he goes out for his daily 5 mile jog at dawn, will he be called in for prowling? It's terrifying. Any given citizen can call him in as suspicious and I might lose my spouse. Aside from keys to get back in, he doesn't run with ID and it wouldn't have a local address anyway. I told him to start wearing his Navy PT gear and uniform when out. I don't know what else to do. If the LEO who shot Philando could see a wide-set nose as he drove by, surely they can see DH's khakis and collar devices.

 

How ironic is it that I want my DH to keep his uniform on in an effort to make up for his skin, the one thing he can't change.

 

When does his fear, my fear, get to matter? When is it reasonable for us to freak out and spout off or any of the other reactions that people justify in LEOs?

 

The fear we live with is life and death, just as stressful, and completely unavoidable. Being black is not a job we can quit and it's not a fear 2 years in the making.

 

This is a life sentence.

Quoting because statements like yours are so often ignored.

[hornblower]

Well, maybe that's true, but I think at some point, after a certain number of offenses (and he had been arrested 3 times within 10 months prior to his death), you'd think maybe some type of rehabilitation program or something would come into play. I just think it's a broken system when someone with that many arrests/convictions is on the streets and continually breaking the law.

 

Let me clarify; I know this doesn't apply to every situation. This one happens to be right here in my front yard so it weighs on me more I guess. I just feel like this was a horrible thing that happened and horrible things have stemmed from it, and maybe, just maybe if all aspects of the system worked, we could put a stop to some of the madness.

But that's a different conversation. It's different to say "he should have been in jail" vs.

 

"This system isn't working. We're not rehabilitating people. We're not helping vulnerable people. We're not assisting people to transition to law abiding life. We need to do better. "

 

I don't believe longer and more frequent jail sentences are the solution. I don't believe the data supports them in terms of efficiency or meeting the stated objectives.

[Dmmetler]

re disproportionate stops / arrests / judiciary outcomes throughout the system:

 

 

 

 

 

(Republican) South Carolina Senator Tim Scott -- one of only two black Senators -- last week spoke from the Senate floor to his colleagues and reported, among other incidents, that he'd been pulled over seven times within a year.

 

And in comparison, when I started teaching in a Black school (in a decade, I had five kids total who weren't Black), I was stopped several times as a young, white woman-to make sure I wasn't lost and didn't need assistance. The assumption was that I wasn't safe driving in a neighborhood that my students had to walk to school through. When we had late band concerts, etc, my male co-workers and fathere would volunteer to escort me to my car to make sure I was safe-but young mothers with multiple children were expected to walk alone through what was considered a rough area due to drug related crimes. Other white teachers had similar responses.

 

It bothered me that apparently my safety was considered of greater value than those of the people who lived there-or that I was considered to be that much less capable of taking care of myself!!

[ktgrok]

Mental health is also something at play here. I looked it up, and the man killed in Baton Rouge, who had all the arrests, seems to have been either mentally ill or developmentally delayed. He had a temper, but was described as a nice guy, who could make a living selling CDs, but couldn't manage in a regular job. He lived in a shelter, and the people there liked him. He was known to be generous, sharing his meals with people. How much did any mental disability prevent him from understanding or interacting with police properly? 

 

 

[Liz CA]

This is the same police department that used photos of black suspects for target practice last year. 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/01/15/miami-police-target-practice-mug-shots-blacks/21834491/

 

This explains a lot and I am not being sarcastic. The officer evidently shot before he thought about the "why." Conditioned behavior.

[SKL]

I hear that your heart is not the way your initial post read.

 

However, can you understand people's reactions, especially in a situation as egregious as the current one, that a certain impression would be formed when, in your initial post in this thread, the one solution you offered that more of the victims of these crimes should have been locked up so they wouldn't have been out there where they got shot?

1) Even with a rap sheet, you don't deserve to be summarily executed.

2) It's true that had the victims been anywhere else, they wouldn't have been shot, so I don't really see the point. 

 

In the specific case she mentioned, it seems more relevant to say A.Sterling should not have been pointing a gun at people.  If he hadn't done that, 911 would not have been called and he wouldn't have gotten shot the way he did.

 

But again, completely irrelevant to the present case.

[TechWife]

nm 

 

Edited July 21, 2016 by TechWife