S/O gay marriage thread--why do you care?

[Moxie]

I'm asking this to try to understand, not to debate. I've been debating my mother all day and I do. not. understand. her side.

 

I am Catholic. I am not bothered by legal gay marriage, in fact I think it is great that gay couples now have the same legal protects other couples enjoy. Legal gay marriage didn't create gay families, it just recognized them and not recognizing them won't do anything but cause issues for their children. I am completely ok with religious faiths making rules for themselves.

 

My mother is also Catholic. Hard-core Catholic (but she thinks she's normal and the rest of us are liberal). She really believes that gay marriage will cause the ruination of the U.S. I know there are people on this board who feel the same way.

 

So, my genuine question is, if you are opposed to gay marriage, why do you care? How do you believe the legalization of gay marriage changes your life or this country?

[Brit29]

I don't look at the world from a Christian worldview. I've read the bible several times and have done numerous bible studies, but I am not a Christian. However, my feeling would be that gay marriage would be a good thing, or at the very least, not negative. It makes it more governmental than religious. Christians are called to not be part of this world, you are ruled by Christ, not by man. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, what the government does in no way takes away from God's rule. 

[AimeeM]

Well... why does anyone feel strongly - in favor of; in opposition to - about anything that doesn't directly affect them? I think the obvious answer is that they feel strongly that their response to (insert whatever they feel strongly about) will somehow affect their lives, and the lives of those they care about - even if not today or tomorrow or twenty years down the line, but at some point.

 

I'm not going to personally speak on THIS subject - I'm just going to say that if people only ever stood for, or against, things that directly affected THEM, the world would be an entirely different place. Depending on your (general "your") stance regarding social issues, that could be very good (or very bad), but it's likely that, at some point, the paths between "butt out - it isn't your business" would be in direct conflict of something you feel is worthy of others being involved directly IN (regardless of whether or not it affects them personally. 

 

I'm conflicted on this specific issue. I'm going to note, however, that those rallying for gay marriage, but who aren't gay themselves, are doing exactly what you're wondering about from the "anti's" - getting involved in something that doesn't necessarily affect them directly. Why? Because they obviously feel strongly about it.

 

How's that for vague ;)

[Mommy22alyns]

I guess you could ask other board members why they care so much about something they're against that they make many nasty posts about it.  Shrug.  I actually haven't seen *nasty* posts opposing gay marriage, but I can't say the same on other topics.

[Lady Florida.]

I'm asking this to try to understand, not to debate. I've been debating my mother all day and I do. not. understand. her side.

 

I am Catholic. I am not bothered by legal gay marriage, in fact I think it is great that gay couples now have the same legal protects other couples enjoy. Legal gay marriage didn't create gay families, it just recognized them and not recognizing them won't do anything but cause issues for their children. I am completely ok with religious faiths making rules for themselves.

 

My mother is also Catholic. Hard-core Catholic (but she thinks she's normal and the rest of us are liberal). She really believes that gay marriage will cause the ruination of the U.S. I know there are people on this board who feel the same way.

 

So, my genuine question is, if you are opposed to gay marriage, why do you care? How do you believe the legalization of gay marriage changes your life or this country?

 

I don't understand it either. I didn't care who other people love or marry (consenting adults of course) when I was still Catholic or when I was Methodist, so it's not just atheist me who thinks that way.

 

What I don't get is why these same people aren't loudly, publicly fighting other non-biblical laws. Like trying to bring back a time when divorce was illegal. Or fighting against health benefits being given to unmarried couples. Why cherry pick this one thing? I have my own ideas as to why, but I still don't get it.

[bibiche]

I guess you could ask other board members why they care so much about something they're against that they make many nasty posts about it. Shrug. I actually haven't seen *nasty* posts opposing gay marriage, but I can't say the same on other topics.

Perhaps we have a different definition of "nasty." Could you provide some examples? No snark, I really can't comprehend what you are insinuating.

[TranquilMind]

I don't understand it either. I didn't care who other people love or marry (consenting adults of course) when I was still Catholic or when I was Methodist, so it's not just atheist me who thinks that way.

 

What I don't get is why these same people aren't loudly, publicly fighting other non-biblical laws. Like trying to bring back a time when divorce was illegal. Or fighting against health benefits being given to unmarried couples. Why cherry pick this one thing? I have my own ideas as to why, but I still don't get it.

Who says they aren't, and you just don't hear about it?    There have always been people stating that divorce is bad for kids. 

 

This particular topic is very newsworthy right now, so you are going to hear about this more than the others you mention. 

[mommaduck]

At one time, I cared. I was being told by Christian radio and all the partisan radio hosts that it would affect us, destroy marriage, and FORCE churches to marry them. I have not found where it will affect us, I do not believe that being gay has anything to do with pedophilia, and I do not believe it will have any affect on my or other people's marriages. Because of Separation of Church and State, it will not force Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, Temples, etc to marry them (unless a cleric has CHOSEN to contract directly with the courthouse to marry random people as a service...then it's a service, not a religious rite). Beyond that, I HAVE learned a lot about legal protections and know how messy family situations can be. I also know that I cannot hold others to my faith that are not of my faith. I no longer see anything wrong with legalized marriage for others and see where it is a protection for them and any children they have. Further beyond that, it's just flat out not my business anyhow. 

[Guest]

Who says they aren't, and you just don't hear about it? There have always been people stating that divorce is bad for kids.

 

This particular topic is very newsworthy right now, so you are going to hear about this more than the others you mention.

Hmm, that doesn't really answer the question. TM, why do you believe extending marriage rights to gay people hurts you or the United States?

[mamiof5]

I have to agree with your mom. Are you a practicing Catholic? Perhaps this is something you should ask to your priest, not in an open forum where chances are lots of the members disagree and it will become a huge, and perhaps not very nice discussion. I am also Catholic. Our church has hosted several talks in the matter. Our priest has made it very clear, as much as a touchy subject this might be, if you are Catholic and truly understand your faith then you understand why we don't support homosexual marriage.

ETA: my last sentence is something he has said several times. Just wanted to clarify.

[LucyStoner]

I have to agree with your mom. Are you a practicing Catholic? Perhaps this is something you should ask to your priest, not in an open forum where chances are lots of the members disagree and it will become a huge, and perhaps not very nice discussion. I am also Catholic. Our church has hosted several talks in the matter. Our priest has made it very clear, as much as a touchy subject this might be, if you are Catholic and truly understand your faith then you understand why we don't support homosexual marriage.

ETA: my last sentence is something he has said several times. Just wanted to clarify.

Moxie has had many threads where she has discussed her faith and that she is a practicing, observant Catholic.

 

My father is also a Catholic. He attends mass more than once a week, volunteers more than weekly with 2 Catholic charities and pretty much centers his whole life around church and his kids and our families. Most everyone at his large parish feels differently than you do and differently than your priest. Including his priest, who would not consent to pressing his parishioners to sign a petition against equal civil marriage. My father sees the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage. He wouldn't want the church forced to perform same sex marriages but by the same token, he wasn't going to not show up for his son's same sex wedding at a different denomination either. He's a hands on grandfather to all of his grandchildren, both those with heterosexual and homosexual parents. None of his brothers and sisters, observant or not, are opposed to gay marriage either. Statistics show that they are in the majority of American Catholics.

[LucyStoner]

I was never opposed exactly to gay marriage. I didn't think it was very important though and I really didn't see it as even a top ten concern for most pressing civil rights issue. I even thought maybe civil union was all that was needed.

 

Then I married and had my older son.

 

And I was like oh my goodness, who the heck am I to deny any couple all of the benefits and protections that my family and child are enjoying? What is wrong with me that I would be ok with having this but not others, if this is what they want?

 

The arrival of my niece when my older son was four underscored this for me. I thought of all the possible scenarios for my brother as a SAHD and was like, being married is one of the main things that would protect him. They married the first day it was legally possible to do so in our state.

[fraidycat]

Moxie has had many threads where she has discussed her faith and that she is a practicing, observant Catholic.

 

My father is also a Catholic. He attends mass more than once a week, volunteers more than weekly with 2 Catholic charities and pretty much centers his whole life around church and his kids and our families. Most everyone at his large parish feels differently than you do and differently than your priest. Including his priest, who would not consent to pressing his parishioners to sign a petition against equal civil marriage. My father sees the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage. He wouldn't want the church forced to perform same sex marriages but by the same token, he wasn't going to not show up for his son's same sex wedding at a different denomination either. He's a hands on grandfather to all of his grandchildren, both those with heterosexual and homosexual parents. None of his brothers and sisters, observant or not, are opposed to gay marriage either. Statistics show that they are in the majority of American Catholics.

:iagree:

 

I didn't care when I was a Catholic, and I don't care now. Most Catholics *that I know personally* seem to live by the "live and let live" mantra, actually.

 

Actually, I DO care, but I care about equality.

[Guest]

Maybe you will get a better response by messaging a few ladies privately. I can't be the only one who simply refuses to discuss the subject on a board like this. If you're genuinely curious, poke a few gals :)

[abba12]

Maybe you will get a better response by messaging a few ladies privately. I can't be the only one who simply refuses to discuss the subject on a board like this. If you're genuinely curious, poke a few gals :)

 

Agreeing with this. I don't think any of us feel like dangling ourselves in front of the ravenous lions so to speak, if someone answers your question their reply will be in the spotlight since it's the very topic of the thread, and I don't believe for a second that a true answer to your question would be responded to respectfully by other boardies.

[Joules]

Well... why does anyone feel strongly - in favor of; in opposition to - about anything that doesn't directly affect them? I think the obvious answer is that they feel strongly that their response to (insert whatever they feel strongly about) will somehow affect their lives, and the lives of those they care about - even if not today or tomorrow or twenty years down the line, but at some point.

 

 

I'm not personally affected by the issue.  I guess I just believe in equal rights for all and I can't see any way that gay marriage infringes on others' rights as long as we aren't forcing them to get gay-married (Does anyone else think that is the most absurd word/phrase?)  People have been required by our gov't to serve groups they don't like, don't agree with, or downright hate since the civil rights era, if not longer.  That's not new to me.

 

But the bigger picture is that I don't want to live in a theocracy, particularly not with the angry brand of religion that surrounds me.  I guess I might find some religion that I was OK with, but I really think our government should continue with separation of church and state from the founding documents and remain religiously neutral.  This issue is exclusively religious...a certain group of people have been denied their rights because of religion, the country has been called on it, and it is slowly bestowing full rights on them.

[Rivka]

I care deeply. I wrote this essay back in 2007, when I was working in an inner-city HIV clinic. This is something that happened there.

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/rebecca-wald/why-marriage-matters-from-2007/10153389586883048?pnref=lhc

[DawnM]

I think it is easy to google why some people are against gay marriage, but the bottom line is that many are afraid it will lead to moral decline.  I can personally think of far bigger issues leading to moral decline, but you asked why some feel so strongly about this particular issue.

 

Here is one that is very strongly against gay marriage:   http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/politically-incorrect/homosexuality/10-reasons-why-homosexual-marriage-is-harmful-and-must-be-opposed.html

 

I have NO Idea whose these people are, so don't shoot the messenger, but it does have the reasons why many are against gay marriage.

 

 

[AmandaVT]

I care deeply. I wrote this essay back in 2007, when I was working in an inner-city HIV clinic. This is something that happened there.

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/rebecca-wald/why-marriage-matters-from-2007/10153389586883048?pnref=lhc

 

Wow - that was amazingly written and yes! That is one of the reasons I care. I care because every human deserves equal rights. And I want to hug you for the work you've done. Thank you.

[Haiku]

I have asked this question at least a dozen times, and probably more, in online forums, on FB, and of people I know IRL. I have never gotten a reasonable answer. Everything I get back can fit into one of three categories: 

 

1) Gay people are mentally ill.

 

2) Gay sex is icky.

 

3) It offends my religious sensibilities.

 

None of those reasons are sufficient grounds for a civil government to deny people equal rights. No one has ever given me any even remotely reasonable scenario in which allowing gay people to marry would actually affect anyone else but gay people (and I don't consider, "If you allow two guys to marry, what's next? A guy marrying a groundhog??" to be reasonable. YMMV. ;) ).

[Scarlett]

I'm asking this to try to understand, not to debate. I've been debating my mother all day and I do. not. understand. her side.

 

I am Catholic. I am not bothered by legal gay marriage, in fact I think it is great that gay couples now have the same legal protects other couples enjoy. Legal gay marriage didn't create gay families, it just recognized them and not recognizing them won't do anything but cause issues for their children. I am completely ok with religious faiths making rules for themselves.

 

My mother is also Catholic. Hard-core Catholic (but she thinks she's normal and the rest of us are liberal). She really believes that gay marriage will cause the ruination of the U.S. I know there are people on this board who feel the same way.

 

So, my genuine question is, if you are opposed to gay marriage, why do you care? How do you believe the legalization of gay marriage changes your life or this country?

I do care deeply about morals, but this is a political issue.

 

There are a lot of issues I care about that I would probably be marching in the street over if I were not politically neutral. As I watch all of this unfold, not just gay marriage but other huge changes that used to be considered immoral, I have a unique position of watching it from the sidelines. And realizing how utterly impossible it is for humans to change the course of human history. I believe God can and I believe he will. In the meantime, My job is to do what I can to please my God to the best of my ability. I wil obey laws up to the point I can't but I won't be making huge waves unless I am literally being forced to go against my conscious.

[IndigoGlitter]

I don't care. We are humans. Humans should all have the same rights to do what everyone else is doing. Why shouldn't the males be allowed to marry? It's none of my business. It isn't between them and me. It's between them and them. I have nothing to do with it. Don't care and no one else should have the authority to tell them what they can and can't do. Government and other people need to say out of other people's marriages. That is where I come from.

[Joules]

I care deeply. I wrote this essay back in 2007, when I was working in an inner-city HIV clinic. This is something that happened there.

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/rebecca-wald/why-marriage-matters-from-2007/10153389586883048?pnref=lhc

 

Can't like this because it is too sad, but thank you for sharing.  It is beautifully written and expressing the heart of the issue. Basic human rights should be available to all humans.

[Anne in CA]

When I was younger I worried that gay marriage would lead to plural marriage, which would lead to very young girls getting "married off" to be raped and molested legally. I know better NOW, but when I was young I could easily imagine my parents marrying me off to some old jerk while I was still a minor and had no say, so I worried about it happening to other people. I now don't even have a problem with plurar marriage, as long as all partners are consenting adults.

[mamiof5]

Moxie has had many threads where she has discussed her faith and that she is a practicing, observant Catholic.

 

My father is also a Catholic. He attends mass more than once a week, volunteers more than weekly with 2 Catholic charities and pretty much centers his whole life around church and his kids and our families. Most everyone at his large parish feels differently than you do and differently than your priest. Including his priest, who would not consent to pressing his parishioners to sign a petition against equal civil marriage. My father sees the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage. He wouldn't want the church forced to perform same sex marriages but by the same token, he wasn't going to not show up for his son's same sex wedding at a different denomination either. He's a hands on grandfather to all of his grandchildren, both those with heterosexual and homosexual parents. None of his brothers and sisters, observant or not, are opposed to gay marriage either. Statistics show that they are in the majority of American Catholics.

I know what statistics show about most of American Catholics, which is sad. And it's not about our priest forcing us to do anything, he is just going out of his way to teach his parishioners what the church says in certain issues. We call them "hot topics", gay marriage is one of them, but not the only one. Unfortunately many, many priests, Bishops etc don't make the effort to teach or discuss these topics, they don't want to " upset the crowd ".

Anyway, this is really a can of worms, probably a topic (like politics) that shouldn't have been brought up in this forum, probably I shouldn't have responded, my bad. :(

Have a wonderful weekend! :)

[Luanne]

I do care deeply about morals, but this is a political issue.

 

There are a lot of issues I care about that I would probably be marching in the street over if I were not politically neutral. As I watch all of this unfold, not just gay marriage but other huge changes that used to be considered immoral, I have a unique position of watching it from the sidelines. And realizing how utterly impossible it is for humans to change the course of human history. I believe God can and I believe he will. In the meantime, My job is to do what I can to please my God to the best of my ability. I wil obey laws up to the point I can't but I won't be making huge waves unless I am literally being forced to go against my conscious.

 

I'm sorry, but everything in God's eyes is a moral issue.

[Guest]

I think it's salient that so many people want to tell people who support legal gay marriage that they are, quote, "completely wrong," but can't actually say why.

 

And that they "won't" say why....but will continue to say everyone else is wrong...not a compelling piece of debate there.

 

IME it always boils down to "because I/my book/my leader says so." So then the logical next question is "K but why should that dictate law?" and then it's either, "it just SHOULD because Jesus/Thomas Jeffereson/ I said so" or ~radio silence~

 

I don't think someone is going to come up with an enlightening answer to the OP, that makes anyone say "I still disagree with you, but I've never thought about it that way before, thanks."

[Guest]

I'm just trying trying to pin down what moral degradation means to people who think gay marriage will lead to all manner of bad things. Rampant murder? Rape in the streets? What?

[chiguirre]

And that they "won't" say why....but will continue to say everyone else is wrong...not a compelling piece of debate there.

 

IME it always boils down to "because I/my book/my leader says so." So then the logical next question is "K but why should that dictate law?" and then it's either, "it just SHOULD because Jesus/Thomas Jeffereson/ I said so" or ~radio silence~

 

I don't think someone is going to come up with an enlightening answer to the OP, that makes anyone say "I still disagree with you, but I've never thought about it that way before, thanks."

Thanks for putting it so well okbud. I was thinking about how to respond to previous posters who said they wouldn't reply publically with their arguments while I was washing dishes and you wrote just what I was thinking.

 

IMHO, if you can't publically state your opinions because you fear the backlash, you don't really believe them unequivocally. If you're not willing to stand up to public opprobrium for your views, you should probably examine them more closely.

[elegantlion]

I used to believe differently, that marriage was one man and one woman. Someday I'll write up how I changed those beliefs. 

 

Cliff notes version: Being gay is a choice and same sex marriage is immoral (original thought) ---> lots of legal activities are considered immoral by certain religions---->America has a separation of church and state for a reason ------> America is not a theocracy----->what happens behind closed doors between two consenting adults is none of my business (always felt that way) -------> Gays are being denied civil rights that are offered to hetero married peoples (medical rights, benefits, survivorship benefits)------> Many gays are in long term monogamous relationships and desire to have the same rights afforded to married people-----> America is not a theocracy.

 

I no longer believe the original thought, it took some soul searching and research and talking to actual gay individuals to understand. I know what the bible says about a man laying with another man. I have not examined its greater context. I also know that the bible mentions lots of punishments and sins that we no longer hold to, they are contextually irrelevant to our modern era and seem to get brushed aside in arguments such as these. I also know that God says we are to love our neighbors and offer grace. I also do not believe same sex marriage will lead to the downfall of civilization. 

[mommaduck]

I'm sorry, but everything in God's eyes is a moral issue.

 

Red carpet vs blue carpet? How many pleats are on a kapp? Not to be ornery; there are people that believe these are moral issues and reject the idea that anything is amoral. Is this your belief also?

[LucyStoner]

I know what statistics show about most of American Catholics, which is sad. And it's not about our priest forcing us to do anything, he is just going out of his way to teach his parishioners what the church says in certain issues. We call them "hot topics", gay marriage is one of them, but not the only one. Unfortunately many, many priests, Bishops etc don't make the effort to teach or discuss these topics, they don't want to " upset the crowd ".

Anyway, this is really a can of worms, probably a topic (like politics) that shouldn't have been brought up in this forum, probably I shouldn't have responded, my bad. :(

Have a wonderful weekend! :)

I think you are discounting that some priests themselves believe in equal (civil) marriage. I don't get the impression that my father's priest is scared to discuss the hot topics or minds upsetting the crowd especially.

 

I'm also not saying it's right or wrong for Catholics to feel any particular way about marriage, just that there is a range of views, even among the ordained and even among the devout.

[Scarlett]

I'm sorry, but everything in God's eyes is a moral issue.

I don't understand what you are saying exactly.

 

I believe a lot of things are a moral issue but God is not involved in the politics of this country or any other. As a matter of fact I believe being involved or not in politics is a moral issue ...it is why I stay out of politics.

[albeto.]

I'm just trying trying to pin down what moral degradation means to people who think gay marriage will lead to all manner of bad things. Rampant murder? Rape in the streets? What?

 

I can offer my opinion from the days when I was very much opposed to it, fwiw. It absolutely was about moral degradation of society for me. Not so much rape in the streets, but by "chipping away" at supposed religious freedom. For example, first the state took prayer out of schools, then it normalized homosexuality (by teaching kids some families have two mommies or two daddies), eventually they'll force churches to conduct all marriages, and then other rituals that are considered sinful. The xian will be forced to chose loyalty to god over obedience to the state, and in a worst case scenario, that would result in imprisonment. Being imprisoned would be unlikely to happen to everyone, but it could happen to anyone. Events like Kim Davis' arrest for contempt of court is certainly being played into this fear beautifully. You couldn't have scripted a more clear and obvious example (from this pov).

 

For me, it wasn't so much being pitted against the state as it was the moral degradation of society. Children who don't know the tender love of a "real" marriage could never grow up to create a loving family of their own. Children who think being gay is normal will grow up to try it, thus increasing the number of families who don't really know how to relate to each other lovingly, but as objects of mutual satisfaction. The slippery slope in this whole problem is that any sin might be considered normalized. A nation that eats away at itself through crime and corruption is vulnerable to outside attacks (and inside attacks), and these great United States would no longer be great. Like the Roman Empire, we'll be overrun by the barbarians who are gathering at the gate. The "barbarians" might be the muslims, it might be the godless atheists, it might be the homosexual, it might be the communist, it might simply be the onslaught of illegal immigrants who simply drain all our resources until each red-blooded American is as penniless as a street urchin. These things may not happen in my lifetime, I thought, but if I love my children (and I do), I wouldn't want it to happen in their lifetime, or their children's. [ETA: While I wouldn't have phrased it specifically as god turning his back on america, that idea would have been the reason behind such sentiment. I would have understood it to be god withholding his blessings from the nation who first turned her back on him. Recalling the OT stories about how that turned out would have contributed to my worry.]

 

IMHO, if you can't publically state your opinions because you fear the backlash, you don't really believe them unequivocally. If you're not willing to stand up to public opprobrium for your views, you should probably examine them more closely.

 

No kidding. It's amazing to me to see people refuse to defend what they think is right. It gives all the appearance of knowing one would be embarrassed for looking foolish and likely hateful. I'm sure that's not how it feels. 

[Paige]

I can speak based on the perspective of people I personally know and who have personally discussed this with me at length including family members and members of my church. It's not my belief- I support gay marriage- so please don't slam me.

 

1- They sincerely feel that legal gay marriages in our country will provoke the wrath of God. They feel it will require God to discipline our country and it will lead to the end of our country in ways similar to Babylon.

 

2- They believe that it will confuse children. They are teaching children that homosexuality is wrong, yet if the government says it is ok, what will the children think? It will make their jobs as parents more difficult. They fear that if gay marriage is legal, more people (perhaps even their children) will engage in homosexual behaviors and get involved in homosexual relationships. They do not believe it is something you are born with, so the idea of choosing to be gay or trying it out is a serious concern. The ones who do believe you can be born that way will usually assert that homosexuals are meant to be celibate. They fear that it will undermine their efforts to teach homosexuals about how God wants them to be celibate. 

 

3- They fear that their clergy will be forced to marry homosexuals and that it will violate their religious freedom. They fear that churches will be required to hire people in homosexual relationships and that would go against their conscience and expose them to God's wrath.

 

4- They fear for the souls of the children born or raised in homosexual families. How can they come to God if God tells them their parents are living in sin? And besides, parents in gay marriages cannot be real Christians (not my opinion!!), and they'd never consent to let their kids go to real churches, so those kids are most likely doomed. If gay marriage is approved, more kids will be brought up in families like that and lost. 

 

I'm sorry. I know this may sound offensive, but it's not my belief and I also feel that those who believe it believe it sincerely. I don't wish to ridicule their beliefs but to state it clearly. Most of them have no hate of homosexuals but rather feel a deep concern and sadness for them. They are good people trying to do their best in a world that they feel is losing the fear of God with potentially dire consequences. IMO, the fear of God's judgement is the biggest issue:his judgement on those in gay marriages, their families, and the country as a whole.

[mamajag]

Thanks for putting it so well okbud. I was thinking about how to respond to previous posters who said they wouldn't reply publically with their arguments while I was washing dishes and you wrote just what I was thinking.

 

IMHO, if you can't publically state your opinions because you fear the backlash, you don't really believe them unequivocally. If you're not willing to stand up to public opprobrium for your views, you should probably examine them more closely.

 

So if a gay person fears coming out because of the backlash, are they not unequivocally gay?

 

I do have beliefs and reasons behind those beliefs, but as others have stated with the ferocity with which some posters attack anything differing from their own view I'm hesitant to hang myself out there. I don't owe anyone an explanation that will only lead to abuse. 

 

Basically, if you want to know my reasons, do some studies about Catholic ideas on gender, family, relationships, and why God set things up that way. Things that have strayed from that plan have brought about evil. Contraception didn't seem so horrible of an idea but the hormones are now in the groundwater and causing the extinction of endangered species because they are being dosed with the hormones not to mention the side effects on women. We now know it greatly increases the rate of women's cancers and that it alters a woman's choice of mate while she is taking them, and some doctors think this is part of the puzzle of unexplained infertility. For goodness sake many people won't eat beef dosed with hormones but we shove women full of them on a daily basis and that's okay! Abortion led to the existence of a market for butchered baby parts and a society that values animals' lives over that of humans. The narrative became that some lives are more important than others and it spread like a virus...which feeds into the current climate of #BlackLivesMatter versus #PoliceLivesMatter when they are both wrong and right at the same time. ALL life is precious. Gun violence and shootings have little to do with the mechanical devices in use and more to do with the climate of disrespect for the sanctity of life. We thought women's equality was a good thing, but it became an erasure of the differences in gender that make us complementary partners for each other. Now society says there are no differences, you can be a man or woman simply by changing your mind despite what the facts of DNA say. We are living in the times Orwell warned us of. Yes, I have concerns as to where this deviation will lead us. No, I don't hate gay people.

And BTW, that woman in KY is insane. Her job is issuing licenses for a secular legal construct. She has nothing to do with sacramental marriage. I think the religious people need to divorce the secular from the sacramental. It's just not the same thing.

 

(I'm bowing out here. You wanted it, you have it. I'm not sticking around for the feeding frenzy.)

[mamiof5]

I think you are discounting that some priests themselves believe in equal (civil) marriage. I don't get the impression that my father's priest is scared to discuss the hot topics or minds upsetting the crowd especially.

 

I'm also not saying it's right or wrong for Catholics to feel any particular way about marriage, just that there is a range of views, even among the ordained and even among the devout.

No, not discounting that. I know some priests believe in that. Also know that some priests support abortion, otherwise they wouldn't support certain politicians. But just because they do it, because they support it and believe in it doesn't mean it's right. The Church itself is sending many mixed messages, because we have clergy that supports what the church doesn't support. Now a days, it is very hard for someone who is not Catholic to know what the Catholic church stands for, since we have so many different views. Have attended a couple excellent talks in the topic, don't have my notes with me right now and it would be impossible for me to state it all (at least a couple hours each talk, a lot of wonderful information). Anyway, it has a lot to do with what God intended for marriage (which is a Sacrament, the Sacrament of Matrimony), theology of the body (how a man's and a woman's body compliment each other), the beauty of creating a human life, the family being the main core of society etc etc. There's a lot to it, more than just the very superficial search for equality.

[albeto.]

So if a gay person fears coming out because of the backlash, are they not unequivocally gay?

 

You did not just equate being held accountable for statements with being socially or physically punished, sometimes to death, did you?

[LucyStoner]

No, not discounting that. I know some priests believe in that. Also know that some priests support abortion, otherwise they wouldn't support certain politicians. But just because they do it, because they support it and believe in it doesn't mean it's right. The Church itself is sending many mixed messages, because we have clergy that supports what the church doesn't support. Now a days, it is very hard for someone who is not Catholic to know what the Catholic church stands for, since we have so many different views. Have attended a couple excellent talks in the topic, don't have my notes with me right now and it would be impossible for me to state it all (at least a couple hours each talk, a lot of wonderful information). Anyway, it has a lot to do with what God intended for marriage (which is a Sacrament, the Sacrament of Matrimony), theology of the body (how a man's and a woman's body compliment each other), the beauty of creating a human life, the family being the main core of society etc etc. There's a lot to it, more than just the very superficial search for equality.

Mamiof5, I was raised in the Catholic church, come from a long line of Irish Catholics and intended to enter religious life as a nun at one point. I don't need background information on the church or the various positions the church takes on different issues.

 

I reject the idea that civil equality in a civil state is a superficial aim. Separation of church and state protects the church and its adherents as much as the state and its citizens.

[ktgrok]

I think what the Church stands for has very little to do with what our laws as a country should be. I don't see Catholics trying to outlaw marriage after divorce, which is also a sin according to the church, because they acknowledge that church law and state law are different. 

[ajfries]

So, here's my thing. And I think there are members (actually, I very well be in the minority) of my religion that disagree. So this is me speaking for myself. And only myself.

 

I believe that God does not approve of members of the same sex having intercourse. I also believe that God opposes many things that the government allows and even approves & encourages.

 

I believe that marriage, when it comes to the government, should be viewed as a legal contract. And it's none of the government's business when 2 consenting adults enter into a legal agreement. I think the government should only offer 'civil unions' and leave the religious aspect of it to those who are religious. If you want to be married in the eyes of God (or whomever...however you believe that is done) then go do it. If you want the benefits of health insurance, custody, etc. etc. a civil union is what should be needed.

 

What if the government said, "Hey. Ok. We're no longer going to recognize [insert religion] marriages."? People would be in a TIZZY. The US government is not a religious entity. The primary reason (the only reason?) people are against same sex marriage is religion. The GOVERNMENT IS NOT RELIGIOUS. People who are participating in the government may claim to be religious, but this is not a theocracy.

 

Separation of church and state.

 

 

[SKL]

I care less as economic "marriage benefits" decrease.  I don't agree with transfers of wealth from singles to married people based only on marital status.  I'm not actively opposing it, but I won't support it either.

 

I don't get why people care so much one way or another.  I'm a single mom.  I don't think marriage is a need or a basic human right.  I don't think having married parents is crucial for kids nowadays, and if there are legal benefits, I don't agree that kids of single parents deserve less.

[Scarlett]

So, here's my thing. And I think there are members (actually, I very well be in the minority) of my religion that disagree. So this is me speaking for myself. And only myself.

 

I believe that God does not approve of members of the same sex having intercourse. I also believe that God opposes many things that the government allows and even approves & encourages.

 

I believe that marriage, when it comes to the government, should be viewed as a legal contract. And it's none of the government's business when 2 consenting adults enter into a legal agreement. I think the government should only offer 'civil unions' and leave the religious aspect of it to those who are religious. If you want to be married in the eyes of God (or whomever...however you believe that is done) then go do it. If you want the benefits of health insurance, custody, etc. etc. a civil union is what should be needed.

 

What if the government said, "Hey. Ok. We're no longer going to recognize [insert religion] marriages."? People would be in a TIZZY. The US government is not a religious entity. The primary reason (the only reason?) people are against same sex marriage is religion. The GOVERNMENT IS NOT RELIGIOUS. People who are participating in the government may claim to be religious, but this is not a theocracy.

 

Separation of church and state.

It seems to me . In this country, that the government already only humors people with the religious aspect of it. You can be married in a church or by your religious leader all day long, but it isn't recognized by the state until someone who is authorized with the state gets involved in the union.

[Laura Corin]

 

I believe that marriage, when it comes to the government, should be viewed as a legal contract. And it's none of the government's business when 2 consenting adults enter into a legal agreement. I think the government should only offer 'civil unions' and leave the religious aspect of it to those who are religious. If you want to be married in the eyes of God (or whomever...however you believe that is done) then go do it. If you want the benefits of health insurance, custody, etc. etc. a civil union is what should be needed.

 

So there should only be civil unions for secular heterosexual couples too?  Because I was married in the US by a Justice of the Peace with no religious trappings at all.  I would not have minded calling it a 'civil union' instead, but others might be upset by being told that they could no longer get married unless religiously.

[Chelli]

The general argument that I hear falls into the category of being a stop gap against God's wrath.

 

There are Bible verses that tell of God letting nations exist until their sin/iniquity has become too much and then God allows those nations to be destroyed. The Christians I know who are against gay marriage believe that gay marriage, abortion, no prayer in schools, perceived attacks on Christianity, etc. are filling up the vat of sin/iniquity for the United States at an alarming rate. They feel it is their Christian duty to do their best to stop this from happening by speaking out vocally against sins, by actively trying to thwart laws/court decisions that would force the US to continue down this path of being destroyed. Usually when Christians talk about the slippery slope that gay marriage leads to is the slippery slope of more sinful behaviors being seen by the culture and the government as acceptable, thus filling up our nations allowance of sin before we are destroyed even faster.

 

The other common complaint I hear about gay marriage is that it will force ministers and churches to marry homosexual couples or risk being sued, so Christians are trying to prevent this from happening.

[LucyStoner]

So there should only be civil unions for secular heterosexual couples too? Because I was married in the US by a Justice of the Peace with no religious trappings at all. I would not have minded calling it a 'civil union' instead, but others might be upset by being told that they could no longer get married unless religiously.

I think it is ok to acknowledge that words can have more than one meaning. Marriage can have a civil definition and any number of religious definitions.

 

Maybe I am just goofily romantic but my husband and I didn't decide to get civil unioned or domestic partnered. We decided to get married. That's our prerogative, even though we aren't religiously oriented at all. Marriage was a thing long before the church was a thing.

[ajfries]

So there should only be civil unions for secular heterosexual couples too?  Because I was married in the US by a Justice of the Peace with no religious trappings at all.  I would not have minded calling it a 'civil union' instead, but others might be upset by being told that they could no longer get married unless religiously.

 

Yes, civil unions all around! :) I mean, they could continue to call it marriage (or whatever) :) but if you want to get hitched ;) in a religious ceremony, that would be separate.

 

I hadn't considered the Justice of the Peace being completely secular; I assumed that there was some sort of religious slant to that, too...like there is with "In God We Trust" on American money or saying "under God" in the pledge of allegiance.

 

I guess that just illustrates my confusion; if not for religious reasons, why oppose same sex marriage?

[chiguirre]

So if a gay person fears coming out because of the backlash, are they not unequivocally gay?

IMHO, no, because I don't think people choose their sexual orientation. My reasons for believing this include our observation of gay relationships in other species and the social stigmatization of homosexuality in our society until recently. I don't think anyone would choose to be a member of a reviled minority if they could avoid it.

 

The rest of your post touches on a ton of topics that I haven't researched enough to post about. I usually post on topics that I've thought about and feel prepared to discuss in public. There are lots of things I read here but don't know anywhere near enough about to post. I do love reading about them though because this site hosts one of the most eclectic mixes of topics that interest me on the internet.

[Word Nerd]

Thanks for putting it so well okbud. I was thinking about how to respond to previous posters who said they wouldn't reply publically with their arguments while I was washing dishes and you wrote just what I was thinking.

 

IMHO, if you can't publically state your opinions because you fear the backlash, you don't really believe them unequivocally. If you're not willing to stand up to public opprobrium for your views, you should probably examine them more closely.

There's a difference between opting not to comment on a topic at TWTM that's been hashed and rehashed and thread-locked countless times, and being afraid to speak up about your beliefs, though. I wouldn't read too much into other posters' decisions about where and what to share. It's not like this exact topic has never been discussed here before.

[Laura Corin]

 

I hadn't considered the Justice of the Peace being completely secular; I assumed that there was some sort of religious slant to that, too...like there is with "In God We Trust" on American money or saying "under God" in the pledge of allegiance.

 

Well, we wrote the ceremony, so I don't think there were any gods involved, unless on a state seal on the document or something.  There could have been some wood sprites among the redwoods, but they didn't advertise their presence.