Have you all followed the Naugler family?

[mommaduck]

Friends of ours bought a 2bd trailer for $1k. Granted, they had to replace all the windows, it needs to be rewired, etc, but they are doing what they can with it. AND there are nine people living in it (granted, teens on up).

[Seasider]

How are they accessing the internet to be constantly updating their social media when they don't have electricity or water? Their priorities are messed up.

Good question.

 

As far as their Go Fund Me goals, it would cost far less to set them up in an apartment or rental house. They need to let go of their "live off the grid" dream and see to the welfare of their children.

[LucyStoner]

Friends of ours bought a 2bd trailer for $1k. Granted, they had to replace all the windows, it needs to be rewired, etc, but they are doing what they can with it. AND there are nine people living in it (granted, teens on up).

If you can pay to drag it away, you can get any number of trailer dwellings for free around here.

[Ravin]

Silly you! Getting a job and proving income is for sissies. You should have started a gofundme page and gotten your money for free, no strings attached, from clueless strangers.

 

Silly, silly girl. ;)

I know, right? I'm tempted to start a gofundme for my bar review since I don't have anyone to cosign a loan.

 

Except it would take time and effort to promote it on social media, and at least working part time at Wal-Mart for nine bucks an hour will let me retain some dignity and self-respect, even if it seems absurd with two degrees.

[gardenmom5]

Good question.

 

As far as their Go Fund Me goals, it would cost far less to set them up in an apartment or rental house. They need to let go of their "live off the grid" dream and see to the welfare of their children.

 

I wonder if their need to get away from civilization is more to hide the treatment of the children, and that they're living in squalor. after all, if no one sees how they're living, (the blog is about preaching to their choir who think they're wonderful parents and the gov. is evil.) - no one will report them to cps.  despite their claims - they've had run-ins with cps at least since his oldest was four.

[LucyStoner]

I wonder if their need to get away from civilization is more to hide the treatment of the children, and that they're living in squalor. after all, if no one sees how they're living, (the blog is about preaching to their choir who think they're wonderful parents and the gov. is evil.) - no one will report them to cps. despite their claims - they've had run-ins with cps at least since his oldest was four.

My FIL moved my husband and his brother to less and less populated places in part to conceal abuse. It's plausible.

[Corraleno]

I wonder if their need to get away from civilization is more to hide the treatment of the children, and that they're living in squalor. after all, if no one sees how they're living, (the blog is about preaching to their choir who think they're wonderful parents and the gov. is evil.) - no one will report them to cps.  despite their claims - they've had run-ins with cps at least since his oldest was four.

 

 

Someone who says she knows them from their previous church said they were evicted from their last rental house, and that they were basically living the same way even when they had a house — kids sleeping on the dirty floor, feces everywhere, house trashed. 

 

Multiple people who claim to know them IRL have said that Joe is violent and threatens anyone who crosses him. There have been accusations that he hits the kids, they are afraid of him, and that he had an inappropriate relationship with a young girl, none of which seem far fetched given that the oldest son has come forward with allegations of physical and sexual abuse. I do think their move to rural living may have been less motivated by naive idealism and more by the desire to hide the way they live from CPS.

 

If you live in total squalor in town, no one would question CPS taking your kids, but if you live in squalor on 27 acres then when CPS takes your kids you can claim to be persecuted for "homesteading" and set up a Go Fund Me page.  <_<

 

[Orthodox6]

nm

[DawnM]

 

 

 

Someone who says she knows them from their previous church said they were evicted from their last rental house, and that they were basically living the same way even when they had a house — kids sleeping on the dirty floor, feces everywhere, house trashed. 

 

Multiple people who claim to know them IRL have said that Joe is violent and threatens anyone who crosses him. There have been accusations that he hits the kids, they are afraid of him, and that he had an inappropriate relationship with a young girl, none of which seem far fetched given that the oldest son has come forward with allegations of physical and sexual abuse. I do think their move to rural living may have been less motivated by naive idealism and more by the desire to hide the way they live from CPS.

 

If you live in total squalor in town, no one would question CPS taking your kids, but if you live in squalor on 27 acres then when CPS takes your kids you can claim to be persecuted for "homesteading" and set up a Go Fund Me page.  <_<

 

 

That is awful.  

[Bluegoat]

The more I think about it and the more I hear, the more I'm just baffled by these people. What are the parents getting out of this? I mean, they have to live in these conditions too. They sold the things the church gave them... but... why? I mean, if someone gives you a bed, you sell it and you don't have a bed. And for what? I get that there may be alcohol and pot use from things said by people who know them, but how expensive a habit have you got to have? Maybe there are other drugs too? It's just baffling. I guess that's why mental illness is the explanation that a lot of people are falling back on.

 

I mentioned earlier how much this story reminds me of the The Glass castle, which is a memoir of growing up with a really bizarrely dysfunctional family.  The main differences seems to be that the parents were actually intelligent people, and they weren't looking to sponge off other people for the most part. 

 

But they could not hold down jobs despite having good qualifications, or seem even to run a household, and over the years it got worse and worse until they were pretty much living in a hovel next to a garbage pit, and their kids were starving.

 

It was such a weird thing - the image I always remember is the hungry kids noticing their mom hiding under the blanket while they were all freezing in the shack.  She was eating a chocolate bar and keeping it hidden so the kids wouldn't ask for some.  the dad was a drinker, but the mom just seemed to be out of it - both parents seemed to construct this strange alternate reality or narrative for life.

 

And yet they did seem to love their kids and have a set of ideals of sorts.

 

I felt like there was just something missing from the parents that people need to make life work, and the Naugler parents seem to be very similar.

[FaithManor]

Delayed, selective vaxer here due to medical history...and I thought the same thing when I looked at that "yard". 

Me too, dd and one ds have a history of dangerous reactions so we are very careful. But tetanus, an old stand by that has proven itself, is a must. It is often lethal in modern society even with the best of medical support.

 

And then the rabies risk......

 

Not to mention dysentery, chryptosporidium (sp?), and giardia risks.

 

Makes my head spin. I spent time in Jamaica building housing in a poverty stricken area of Kingston, and frankly, some of the children there had access to better water than these children which just staggers the imagination!

[Rivka]

So, this is a totally ignorant question - farm people, help me out. What are the costs associated with keeping animal and human areas separate? Is this something they probably legitimately can't afford to do, or is it something they just don't care enough to do? I understand that proper fencing probably is expensive, but couldn't they do these janky reclaimed-wood fences like the one they have around their kitchen?

 

The choice to free-range their kids, farm animals, and dogs all on the same plot of land... I find that so baffling. Also the idea that they are, in part, drawing from their pond for water use, but the animals aren't contained and rainwater is washing the animal waste into the pond. How much of a substantial upgrade in resources would it take for them to be able to keep their animals contained and away from water sources and human living areas?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, so I have read the last 20 messages of this thread.  I have posted on BLH FB page.  I have stayed neutral there.  I would LOVE to live "out there," living off the land, my kids being so "natural."  But natural and in danger are two different things.  And I think I might not know  how to do better than them (though some sort of housing, way for clean water, heat, etc would be musts!).  

 

In the end, I think they have some issues and this went badly when it didn't necessarily need to if they had just been humble and willing to fix things.  The state rarely will take kids if the situation can be fixed without doing so, especially if it means finding homes for 10 kids (that poor caseworker who now has to go visit them all, coordinate parental/sibling visits, etc on top of normal foster child supervision and "handling").  

 

I'm glad the family is getting help. I hope the children are in absolutely wonderful foster homes getting all their needs met to the best that is possible.  

[FaithManor]

So, this is a totally ignorant question - farm people, help me out. What are the costs associated with keeping animal and human areas separate? Is this something they probably legitimately can't afford to do, or is it something they just don't care enough to do? I understand that proper fencing probably is expensive, but couldn't they do these janky reclaimed-wood fences like the one they have around their kitchen?

 

The choice to free-range their kids, farm animals, and dogs all on the same plot of land... I find that so baffling. Also the idea that they are, in part, drawing from their pond for water use, but the animals aren't contained and rainwater is washing the animal waste into the pond. How much of a substantial upgrade in resources would it take for them to be able to keep their animals contained and away from water sources and human living areas?

Rivka, it isn't necessarily expensive, but it does require attention and labor, something I am not certain these people are willing to do. They appear to be lazy when it comes to safety and health issues.

 

Even picket lines can be used for small livestock like goats and sheep so they can be picketed in fresh grass away from the family abode and away from water sources. Fencing does not have to be expensive, and it can even be salvaged.

 

They need a well, and one that is at least 100 ft. deep, 150-200 would be better because if it is sunk into the rock bed, it cleanses itself quite nicely. While they could dig a shallow well with a shovel, ala Pa Ingalls style, it won't necessarily provide clean water depending on the animal run off, the soil, etc. They need a professional well digger and that would require thousands of dollars, not hundreds. An interim solution would be to have a large tank set - maybe a 500 gallon - which again is going to cost a good bit of money though not anything near getting a well dug - and paying the county water authority to send a tanker or the fire department out to fill it as needed. That's been done before. But, they would not be "self sufficient' - BLAH - and have to pay for their water. Since they seemed to prefer to steal it, I doubt this is a satisfactory option to them.

 

Normally here, animals live in barns, lean tos, and stables away from the family abode by a decent distance, and are mucked out after on a regular basis if they aren't fenced into a good size pasture where it takes care of itself. Barns are always mucked out! Always, unless one wants the authorities on one's head for health code and animal cruelty violations which does occasionally happen. A huge percentage of our local livestock growers compost the manure. The heat from composting, the manure usually has the necessary bacteria plus other elements like sawdust, grass clippings, etc. added to it, kills the bad stuff, and eventually it breaks down into great garden additive. My friend's farm, which I sometimes take care of so she can go on vacation or if she is sick, has a nice outdoor composting area on the back side of one of the barns 200 feet from the yard inside a fenced area which she and her husband turn with their tractor. So we muck out after the horses every day, regularly remove the bedding from the chicken coop and llama stable, and haul it out there with the wheelbarrow or in the case of large amounts of bedding with the tractor, and her husband adds the grass clippings then turns it every week with the tractor. Every fall it gets spread on their gardens, bagged for sale, or spread across the pasture before winter. People clamor for it. It is not hard to do, it does require attention and labor, some basic knowledge of what you are doing, and a desire to keep your farm clean. These are things I do not believe this couple thinks are necessary.

 

The dumb thing is that gardeners LOVE good compost and so do landscaping companies. Do it right, and they could sell it for cash.

 

The one thing that is for certain, not even the Amish - who by the way have some darn good hygienic practices with their livestock - allow manure run off to flow towards their retaining ponds nor near their wells. They slope the property if it doesn't do it naturally, away from the barns, the house, the well, etc., and never towards their ponds or creeks/water source, so that they don't end up with contaminated water. You don't see Amish children running around barefoot in filth.

 

People who go off grid or partially off grid here recognize that it takes a specific knowledge set and skill and set out to gain those. There are many good books, Mother Earth News, Hobby Farm Home, Hobby Farm, and you tube videos. The information is out there. These people just simply were too lazy, too mentally ill, too anti-establishment, too self-centered, too so many things in a likely combination of factors to go out and educate themselves.

[skimomma]

I mentioned earlier how much this story reminds me of the The Glass castle, which is a memoir of growing up with a really bizarrely dysfunctional family.  The main differences seems to be that the parents were actually intelligent people, and they weren't looking to sponge off other people for the most part. 

 

But they could not hold down jobs despite having good qualifications, or seem even to run a household, and over the years it got worse and worse until they were pretty much living in a hovel next to a garbage pit, and their kids were starving.

 

It was such a weird thing - the image I always remember is the hungry kids noticing their mom hiding under the blanket while they were all freezing in the shack.  She was eating a chocolate bar and keeping it hidden so the kids wouldn't ask for some.  the dad was a drinker, but the mom just seemed to be out of it - both parents seemed to construct this strange alternate reality or narrative for life.

 

And yet they did seem to love their kids and have a set of ideals of sorts.

 

I felt like there was just something missing from the parents that people need to make life work, and the Naugler parents seem to be very similar.

 

I thought of that book too when I first heard this story.  There was recently an interview with the author and mother that I found fascinating.  The mother to this day does not see any problem with how they raised their kids.  As a Type A person, that book was maddening!

 

[Butter]

Makes my head spin. I spent time in Jamaica building housing in a poverty stricken area of Kingston, and frankly, some of the children there had access to better water than these children which just staggers the imagination!

 

One of the things I've read over and over on pro-Naugler blog posts is how they don't live any differently than most of the world.  This is possibly true.  People in third world countries do the best they can with what they have.  Completely setting aside the fact they they live in a first world country and could have access to better living conditions, one of the things many, many charity organizations - and governments - do is try to provide clean water and other basic sanitation to those in third world countries.  So many diseases, diseases that lead to many childhood deaths, can be prevented by clean water being available.  The Nauglers have basically rejected providing clean water for their children (other than by stealing it apparently) and are risking their childrens' health (and apparently don't get proper medical care when the kids are sick or injured).  The kids were violently ill due to spoiled pancakes for goodness sake.  And the post about it came off kind of... proud in a twisted way.  I just don't understand.  Clean water makes a HUGE difference!

[Amira]

One of the things I've read over and over on pro-Naugler blog posts is how they don't live any differently than most of the world.  This is possibly true.  People in third world countries do the best they can with what they have.  Completely setting aside the fact they they live in a first world country and could have access to better living conditions, one of the things many, many charity organizations - and governments - do is try to provide clean water and other basic sanitation to those in third world countries.  So many diseases, diseases that lead to many childhood deaths, can be prevented by clean water being available.  The Nauglers have basically rejected providing clean water for their children (other than by stealing it apparently) and are risking their childrens' health (and apparently don't get proper medical care when the kids are sick or injured).  The kids were violently ill due to spoiled pancakes for goodness sake.  And the post about it came off kind of... proud in a twisted way.  I just don't understand.  Clean water makes a HUGE difference!

 

 

Yes.  And people living in developing world conditions choose to make things better when they can.  I promise that just about anyone would rather switch to a gas furnace if it were affordable rather than struggling with coal, or would prefer to have hot running water in the house, or a washing machine, or decent medical care if it's available.

 

Also, most of the world really doesn't live like this.  Even in really hard circumstances, people work hard to keep their children warm and as clean as possible, to feed them the beset food the can find, and try to provide the best education possible.  

[bethben]

If you read the D'Aulaire books, Lincoln spent part of his growing up years in a 3 sided cabin in Kentucky (I think that's where the 3 sided cabin in his life was) and was homeschooled.  He obviously did well.  Maybe that's what they're going for.

[Mimm]

One thing this case has highlighted for me is the importance of realizing what your talents and capabilities are when making lifestyle choices, particularly when there are children involved. I kinda feel like when it's just adults, they can do any idiotic thing they want to. I like the idea of an off grid sustainable home (though not too far from a city) where I grow my own food. But I realize, as I sip my Starbucks coffee and type on my computer, that I love air conditioning, and I'm not a great gardener, and I don't like the way a chicken coop smells and while my housekeeping leaves something to be desired, when it comes to personal hygiene, I'm obsessively clean. My husband isn't handy at all and changing out a sink faucet is something he is excessively proud of (while being simultaneously annoyed that he had to do it in the first place). ;) Homesteading isn't the life for us. I REALIZE that! I'm not going to "go big or go home" (as Nicole Naugler put it) simply because I like the idea anyway.

[JuanitaL]

If you read the D'Aulaire books, Lincoln spent part of his growing up years in a 3 sided cabin in Kentucky (I think that's where the 3 sided cabin in his life was) and was homeschooled.  He obviously did well.  Maybe that's what they're going for.

 

This family is probably an hour(ish) from there. Maybe that's really it. They're trying to recreate that experience for their kids. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(*SMH*  I don't really think that's it.)

[JuanitaL]

 

 

 A huge percentage of our local livestock growers compost the manure. The heat from composting, the manure usually has the necessary bacteria plus other elements like sawdust, grass clippings, etc. added to it, kills the bad stuff, and eventually it breaks down into great garden additive. My friend's farm, which I sometimes take care of so she can go on vacation or if she is sick, has a nice outdoor composting area on the back side of one of the barns 200 feet from the yard inside a fenced area which she and her husband turn with their tractor. So we muck out after the horses every day, regularly remove the bedding from the chicken coop and llama stable, and haul it out there with the wheelbarrow or in the case of large amounts of bedding with the tractor, and her husband adds the grass clippings then turns it every week with the tractor. Every fall it gets spread on their gardens, bagged for sale, or spread across the pasture before winter.  

 

I'm sitting here coveting this. You make manure sound beautiful.

[Entropymama]

If you read the D'Aulaire books, Lincoln spent part of his growing up years in a 3 sided cabin in Kentucky (I think that's where the 3 sided cabin in his life was) and was homeschooled.  He obviously did well.  Maybe that's what they're going for.

 

Having just studied Lincoln with the dc, I'm not sure the 3-sided cabin is accurate. They did live in a log cabin and his childhood wasn't idyllic, but they were hard workers and managed okay with what they had. Sure, he did well, but that was due in large part to his personal drive. One person doing well after being raised in such a way doesn't make it okay to raise your kids like that. Note that he chose not to raise his own children on the frontier. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If you read the D'Aulaire books, Lincoln spent part of his growing up years in a 3 sided cabin in Kentucky (I think that's where the 3 sided cabin in his life was) and was homeschooled. He obviously did well. Maybe that's what they're going for.

I recall he wrote about his stepmother, who took one look at their primitive living conditions and made his father finish the house. She brought furniture, bedding, and an excellent work ethic toward cleanliness. Lincoln remembered his "angel mother," who died, and his father with great affection but he gave the credit for his upbringing to his stepmother. That time after his mother died, when they lived in squalor and neglect, was sad and horrible. She rescued them.

 

Also, he wasn't really homeschooled. He studied as he could but that's not the same thing. Although there are scores of hs'ers using the same method with their kids today: "If you can find some books or have an interest in something I'll try to help if I'm available.But remember, your chores come first." :(

 

I'll try to remember where I read all this and update later. Bethben, I know you know these things and are a responsible hs'er but I'm adding this post for others reading along.

[FaithManor]

I'm sitting here coveting this. You make manure sound beautiful.

:lol:  :lol: :lol:  

 

Hey, I'm lucky. My friend is vigilant. She does not like stinky stables or barns or even yard so she and her husband are careful. Those animals are mucked out after every.single.day. Add the grass clippings, some good bacteria, NOT adding food waste, and sawdust which is the bedding of the horses to begin with, and there just isn't much of a smell at all. That's why I love working for her.

 

She worked in her young years at a show horse stable. They mucked out each morning after the animals were turned to pasture, and then when they had their mid-day grooming, anything they dropped was removed johnny on the spot! The place was practically immaculate. But, if you are going to sell foals for $8000 each, you better keep your place ship shape for the customer and well being of those special snowflake horses.

 

It's not glamorous. However, to be honest, having been around 4-H kids in this county, I can tell you that their farms are all just about as good. Pig farms are the worst and require the most creativity to keep the smell down, and even then, it's not the disgusting crazy that is the Naugler family "homestead". I would imagine that some commercial farms might get pretty bad. But not these family owned, family run establishments. People care about the quality of the animal they sell and butcher, the quality of the offspring so even young little cloverbud 4-H kiddoes are taught proper animal hygiene and treatment of excrement.

 

There is NO excuse for these people. None. The basic information is just so readily available so this is nothing more than laziness or worse. I suspect worse and would not be shocked if one or both of the parents are addicted to drugs. I've seen some bad alcoholism that still didn't equate to this kind of sanitation mess. Drugs! Yah...you get that kind of filth wherever there are meth labs and coke addicts around here. I sincerely hope those children never, ever go back to these people and that they incarcerate her for the rest of the pregnancy...that is the best thing the authorities can do for the developing infant.

[Mergath]

As far as their Go Fund Me goals, it would cost far less to set them up in an apartment or rental house. They need to let go of their "live off the grid" dream and see to the welfare of their children.

 

 

No kidding. We live in a fantastic duplex out in the country with a big yard, a garden, and a good-sized private deck we're using for container gardening. We have enough space to grow a lot of our own food if we want to. And that 25k they want to fix up their shanty would pay our rent AND utilities for three fricking years. I did the math. They're even bigger idiots than I thought if they don't take that money and use it to find a nice rental to live in while they get their lives together.

[FaithManor]

I recall he wrote about his stepmother, who took one look at their primitive living conditions and made his father finish the house. She brought furniture, bedding, and an excellent work ethic toward cleanliness. Lincoln remembered his "angel mother," who died, and his father with great affection but he gave the credit for his upbringing to his stepmother. That time after his mother died, when they lived in squalor and neglect, was sad and horrible. She rescued them.

 

Also, he wasn't really homeschooled. He studied as he could but that's not the same thing. Although there are scores of hs'ers using the same method with their kids today: "If you can find some books or have an interest in something I'll try to help if I'm available.But remember, your chores come first." :(

 

I'll try to remember where I read all this and update later. Bethben, I know you know these things and are a responsible hs'er but I'm adding this post for others reading along.

This! :hurray:

 

On top of which, when people romanticize his life with their misty, modern eyes or use him as some role model for radical unschooling, what they are not willing to admit is that Lincoln on the education he gave himself way back then would not be a lawyer today...he'd never pass the bar. Everything is SO much more complicated. He wouldn't become president of the USA. He'd be a GED graduate at best, sad to say, and with that as his only education would not be working for more or much more than minimum wage in modern society. He'd HAVE to go and further his education and training in order to be "a self made man".

 

People always look at "way back then" and try to draw parallel lines to modern day society, but you just can't do it. Even the house that Pa built on Plum Creek would not meet the building and safety codes of today, and those codes exist, by in large, to protect people. His house would have come down in an F-1 tornado! Build a house in Minnesota these days and well, you have to do better than that for the sake of the children.

 

It might seem like a pretty notion to head to Kansas with nothing more than flour, sugar, salt, tea, cornmeal, and saltpork. But, the Ingalls children suffered malnutrition on a diet like that and coupled with a move off the territory before the garden could be harvested, in addition to another year without crops and garden in the sod house, coupled with the Long Winter of actual starvation eating two pieces of toast per day with possibly a little lard, and suddenly it just isn't so darn romantic anymore. A modern society who has determined that children should be reasonably safe and have some decent calorie count so they don't die young has a right to say, "Pa Ingalls, you need to do better than that." And let me tell ya, that Naugler dude is no Pa Ingalls. Pa had some integrity and worked his butt off. Naugler is just a horrific excuse of a homesteading father.

 

The Amish in this community who so firmly believe they must live this back to the land lifestyle in order to be closer to God still have PROFOUNDLY more advanced skills than this Naugler, and certainly care a hell of a lot more for their children's well being. They know how to live off the land correctly and safely. That said, it is not a romantic life. It's a back breaking labor intensive life of beating the elements, the weather, the pests, the blight, the.....it's not a pretty picture though they do it well.

[Guest mjknight06]

I have been following this for a week. I would love to be off grid and we do homeschool.  As far as the toilet you could put an incinerator toilet in and the pipe sends the "fumes"up above the roof.  They are called Cinderella toilets. How cute.  So, I don't have any objections to families being large, homesteading, farming, homeschooling. My issues are that there are RUMORS of some of the kids not having birth certificates and SSN numbers, the pond being contaminated, their garden failing, the husband stealing his neighbor's water, the husband bouncing checks, the parents selling items that were donated, and the husband only being willing to work part-time. I read from one of their friends that he had a PM in town job but was fired because a vehicle broke down and now they are down to one. Well, we were a one car family for a few years. My husband still worked. Why is the husband not working full-time or trying to get a 1st and 2nd part-time job? If they are Church of Latter Day Saints Members and talked to the Bishop he would have the in the Bishop's storehouse for food fast. I also don't understand why they haven't dug their own well. Shovels are cheap.   Oh and also, for people that had the bed question- the main bed is for the parents and the platform is for the kids to all sleep on at the same time. That's how I read things. Some of their friends that have been on the property and have posted in their defense have said that the "tents" were just play forts for the kids; and the "cabin" is for everyone to sleep. I think all of their problems are a result of not knowing what they are doing to live off-grid, not wanting the help offered, and not asking for the help they need. They have donate buttons on their blog but I think they assume they know how to use it.

 

[Mergath]

 

The Amish in this community who so firmly believe they must live this back to the land lifestyle in order to be closer to God still have PROFOUNDLY more advanced skills than this Naugler, and certainly care a hell of a lot more for their children's well being. They know how to live off the land correctly and safely. That said, it is not a romantic life. It's a back breaking labor intensive life of beating the elements, the weather, the pests, the blight, the.....it's not a pretty picture though they do it well.

 

We have large Amish and Mennonite communities around here, and not only do they have the knowledge of many generations, they also have money. Lots of money. They buy a good chunk of what they need. Food, fabric, farm equipment... I don't think I've ever gone into our local home improvement store and not seen an Amish or Mennonite family shopping. They're able to live the way they do because they have a steady stream of income and a strong community that supports each other. The Nauglers' FB supporters who compare them to the Amish obviously have never been within a hundred miles of an actual Amish community.

[Word Nerd]

My issues are that there are RUMORS of some of the kids not having birth certificates and SSN numbers, the pond being contaminated, their garden failing, the husband stealing his neighbor's water, the husband bouncing checks, the parents selling items that were donated, and the husband only being willing to work part-time.

 

I read the bolded on the family's blog—Nichole made that claim herself.

[FaithManor]

We have large Amish and Mennonite communities around here, and not only do they have the knowledge of many generations, they also have money. Lots of money. They buy a good chunk of what they need. Food, fabric, farm equipment... I don't think I've ever gone into our local home improvement store and not seen an Amish or Mennonite family shopping. They're able to live the way they do because they have a steady stream of income and a strong community that supports each other. The Nauglers' FB supporters who compare them to the Amish obviously have never been within a hundred miles of an actual Amish community.

Exactly!

[Orthodox6]

Again, not a homesteader here.  A well requires more than just digging a hole in the ground.  DIY articles are available online.

[unsinkable]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Hey, I'm lucky. My friend is vigilant. She does not like stinky stables or barns or even yard so she and her husband are careful. Those animals are mucked out after every.single.day. Add the grass clippings, some good bacteria, NOT adding food waste, and sawdust which is the bedding of the horses to begin with, and there just isn't much of a smell at all. That's why I love working for her.

 

She worked in her young years at a show horse stable. They mucked out each morning after the animals were turned to pasture, and then when they had their mid-day grooming, anything they dropped was removed johnny on the spot! The place was practically immaculate. But, if you are going to sell foals for $8000 each, you better keep your place ship shape for the customer and well being of those special snowflake horses.

 

It's not glamorous. However, to be honest, having been around 4-H kids in this county, I can tell you that their farms are all just about as good. Pig farms are the worst and require the most creativity to keep the smell down, and even then, it's not the disgusting crazy that is the Naugler family "homestead". I would imagine that some commercial farms might get pretty bad. But not these family owned, family run establishments. People care about the quality of the animal they sell and butcher, the quality of the offspring so even young little cloverbud 4-H kiddoes are taught proper animal hygiene and treatment of excrement.

 

There is NO excuse for these people. None. The basic information is just so readily available so this is nothing more than laziness or worse. I suspect worse and would not be shocked if one or both of the parents are addicted to drugs. I've seen some bad alcoholism that still didn't equate to this kind of sanitation mess. Drugs! Yah...you get that kind of filth wherever there are meth labs and coke addicts around here. I sincerely hope those children never, ever go back to these people and that they incarcerate her for the rest of the pregnancy...that is the best thing the authorities can do for the developing infant.

Mental illness, addiction (a medical diagnosis), spousal abuse...all reasons why this might have happened.

 

The kids should not be living there. Absolutely not. They should not go back there until there is safe housing and safe water. I'd rather they not go back there at all, and hope the family somehow gets the message that their situation there is untenable.

 

You can't put a pregnant mother in jail for not agreeing with how she lives. What laws is she breaking in regard to her pregnancy? What prenatal care is legally required? There is no pregnancy police, AFAIK.

 

This thread has had enough ugliness using slurs about mental illness.

[Laura Corin]

 

It might seem like a pretty notion to head to Kansas with nothing more than flour, sugar, salt, tea, cornmeal, and saltpork. But, the Ingalls children suffered malnutrition on a diet like that and coupled with a move off the territory before the garden could be harvested, in addition to another year without crops and garden in the sod house, coupled with the Long Winter of actual starvation eating two pieces of toast per day with possibly a little lard, and suddenly it just isn't so darn romantic anymore. A modern society who has determined that children should be reasonably safe and have some decent calorie count so they don't die young has a right to say, "Pa Ingalls, you need to do better than that." And let me tell ya, that Naugler dude is no Pa Ingalls. Pa had some integrity and worked his butt off. Naugler is just a horrific excuse of a homesteading father.

 

 

When we lived in China, our housekeeper was astonished to discover that Husband was in his fifties.  That was the same age as her parents, who looked twenty years older.  The parents had worked an unmechanised farm their entire lives, raising vegetables for themselves, keeping goats, and selling the excess at market.  It was hard, hard work.

[Butter]

Having just studied Lincoln with the dc, I'm not sure the 3-sided cabin is accurate. They did live in a log cabin and his childhood wasn't idyllic, but they were hard workers and managed okay with what they had. Sure, he did well, but that was due in large part to his personal drive. One person doing well after being raised in such a way doesn't make it okay to raise your kids like that. Note that he chose not to raise his own children on the frontier. 

 

I googled because I was curious and had never heard Lincoln lived in a 3-sided cabin.  It turns out, he did indeed live in a 3-sided shelter the year he was 7.  For a few weeks.  While they were building a regular old log cabin with 4 sides and a real roof.

 

http://www.abrahamlincoln200.org/learning-about-lincoln/teaching-with-lincoln/personal-life.aspx

1816 – Indiana

Briefly attends school with sister in fall. Father, who is involved in suit over title to his land, moves family across Ohio River to southwestern Indiana in December. There they settle in backwoods community along Little Pigeon Creek in Perry (later Spencer) County. Family lives in three-sided shelter for several weeks until log cabin is built.

[FaithManor]

Oh, and despite the fact that I am not happy with the fact that the Amish here take there kids out of Amish school before 8th grade since the lack of any higher education makes it pretty hard to ever decide to not be Amish, the reality is those kids are getting way more education than the Naugler kids. Way more. Whoever supports these people on FB and posts positive comments on their blog need to get their heads out of the sand.

[maize]

I can respect "we want to be self-sufficient and work hard to meet the needs of life for our family," and I can respect "life is really rough and we've hit some tough patches and need to depend on the larger social network to get through."

 

I don't understand "we're rejecting the social network and determined to be self-sufficient while begging for donations from strangers to sustain our self-sufficiency."

[Orthodox6]

Mental illness, addiction (a medical diagnosis), spousal abuse...all reasons why this might have happened.

 

The kids should not be living there. Absolutely not. They should not go back there until there is safe housing and safe water. I'd rather they not go back there at all, and hope the family somehow gets the message that their situation there is untenable.

 

You can't put a pregnant mother in jail for not agreeing with how she lives. What laws is she breaking in regard to her pregnancy? What prenatal care is legally required? There is no pregnancy police, AFAIK.

 

This thread has had enough ugliness using slurs about mental illness.

 

Thank you.  I have not yet read anything that hints at mental illness.  Even if ADHD accounts for the incredible sloppiness and slovenliness, that is not a mental illness. 

 

My personal suspicion WAS spousal abuse with a mother so terrified that she allows anything rather than cross her husband.  Now I don't know.  When the authorities intervened, that was her golden opportunity to shout for help.  She did not do so.

 

I'm reduced to positing that these simply are poster parents for nightmare parenting.

[maize]

When we lived in China, our housekeeper was astonished to discover that Husband was in his fifties.  That was the same age as her parents, who looked twenty years older.  The parents had worked an unmechanised farm their entire lives, raising vegetables for themselves, keeping goats, and selling the excess at market.  It was hard, hard work.

 

My grandparents all grew up with the back-breaking labor of farming, even with some mechanization. They made sure their kids went to college and got into non-farming careers.

 

My BIL who does massive agro-business style farming, large scale with all kinds of mechanization, works harder than anyone I have ever met. Farming, small scale to sustain just one family or large scale to earn a living, is a job for people with experience and an impeccable work ethic.

 

And it wears those people out.

[Butter]

My issues are that there are RUMORS of some of the kids not having birth certificates and SSN numbers, the pond being contaminated, their garden failing, the husband stealing his neighbor's water, the husband bouncing checks, the parents selling items that were donated, and the husband only being willing to work part-time.

 

<snip>

 

If they are Church of Latter Day Saints Members and talked to the Bishop he would have the in the Bishop's storehouse for food fast.

 

Are they rumors if the people themselves have confirmed them on social media or their blog?

 

The mom asked for guidance on getting birth certificates and SSN numbers for her kids.

 

The mom posted on her blog about the garden failing.

 

The husband has a criminal record that they are not denying.  It includes bounced checks.  There was something official about an altercation due to stealing water as well.

 

They don't say the husband is only willing to work part-time.  Instead, they say he does NOT work and is a stay at home dad (and so have said they are being persecuted because if he was a woman, no one would care that he stays home).

 

The pond being contaminated and selling donated items I have not seen official documentation or anything on their FB or website.  There may have been something about the pond on there but I don't recall exactly.

 

They did in fact talk to the Bishop and were in fact going to the Bishop's Storehouse for food.  This is also talked about on her blog.  They are not currently attending church and rumor (from many members all giving the same story) is they caused all sorts of havoc in the ward.

[Farrar]

Count me as another who doesn't think that most the world lives this way. Much of the world lives in primitive conditions, but not unsafe conditions where human and animal waste run off into drinking water. And in places that get that cold, people live with more insulation, even if it is created in a primitive way. The problem is not primitive conditions, the problem is ignorance or laziness or whatever in regards to how to live safely with primitive conditions.

[Corraleno]

... Why is the husband not working full-time or trying to get a 1st and 2nd part-time job? If they are Church of Latter Day Saints Members and talked to the Bishop he would have the in the Bishop's storehouse for food fast. ...

 

According to Nicole's ex-boss, Joe was fired from his hotel job for theft. Nicole has posted that he is too busy taking care of the kids to get a job. 

 

According to people from their former church, the family did receive a lot of help from the local ward, including donations of beds, clothing, and other items, all of which they sold for cash, while the children continued to sleep on the feces-covered floor of their rental house (from which they were evicted after totally trashing it). There are reports that Joe threatened a church member for buying him groceries instead of giving him money, that he threatened the bishop and the bishop's family, and that he had an inappropriate relationship with a girl who was a member of the church. They are no longer welcome there.

[elegantlion]

My mom grew up in the country in the 30s and 40s. Their house with 8 kids was in what was supposed to be the chicken coop, albeit a pretty large one. It's still standing. In its current condition, probably 50 years since anyone has lived in it, it is still in better condition than the matchstick lean-to. 

 

There's an obvious disconnect between reality and their version of what they're living. They're not off the grid, they're off their rockers. 

[SproutMamaK]

Again, not a homesteader here.  A well requires more than just digging a hole in the ground.  DIY articles are available online.

 

Somewhere in one of the many FAQ sections I read, the mother posted that the property actually already had a well, but she didn't want to use it. She wished the land had been "raw", but this was the property they could find and it bothered her that it already had a septic system and well on it.

 

Edit: Here's the link, found it. http://blessedlittlehomestead.org/tiny-grid-cabin-qa/

 

C&P of the appropriate section:

"What about a water source?

Best laid plans would have given me raw land. But this land was previously occupied. This means there is a septic and a well or cistern. We have to hire someone to come out and asses them. Until then we haul in water. I get drinking water from the store and refill at work, we get bathing, washing water from a local feed store that has a well. We will also be setting up a rain water collection system. "

So they do admit here to taking water from work and a local store, they just don't specify if they have those people's permission or not. It doesn't seem they bothered to get someone to "asses" the well and cistern.

[unsinkable]

Thank you. I have not yet read anything that hints at mental illness. Even if ADHD accounts for the incredible sloppiness and slovenliness, that is not a mental illness.

 

My personal suspicion WAS spousal abuse with a mother so terrified that she allows anything rather than cross her husband. Now I don't know. When the authorities intervened, that was her golden opportunity to shout for help. She did not do so.

 

I'm reduced to positing that these simply are poster parents for nightmare parenting.

Living is squalor is highly correlated with depression. We don't know if she is depressed, or what kind of problems she has but they are indeed, problems.

 

There is an intrinsic revulsion we have to living squalor. I think it's natural to not want to live in garbage, mold, feces. It's a healthy reaction to go, "Blech!" That is why, IMO, if a person or family doesn't go, "Blech!" I tend to think they have a problem, most likely a mental illness.

 

Thank God the kids are not there so maybe the mom can get to the root of her issues and begin to heal her family.

[Corraleno]

The mom asked for guidance on getting birth certificates and SSN numbers for her kids.

 

I thought she was asking for guidance on how not to get BCs and SSNs — that she wanted people to link information she could use in court to support her claim that the government has no right to force her to register the kids. 

[Orthodox6]

Living is squalor is highly correlated with depression. We don't know if she is depressed, or what kind of problems she has but they are indeed, problems.

 

 

 

You are right.  I forgot about depression.  Ironic, given that I am hard-wired with major depression!  Squalour is not my preferred decorating style, however. 

[StephanieZ]

Their gofundme page is at 45k and climbing. I sincerely hope some lawyer(s) step in to quickly sue the parents on behalf of the children and snag all that money. Sickos. Just sick, sick, sick. 

[FaithManor]

According to Nicole's ex-boss, Joe was fired from his hotel job for theft. Nicole has posted that he is too busy taking care of the kids to get a job. 

 

According to people from their former church, the family did receive a lot of help from the local ward, including donations of beds, clothing, and other items, all of which they sold for cash, while the children continued to sleep on the feces-covered floor of their rental house (from which they were evicted after totally trashing it). There are reports that Joe threatened a church member for buying him groceries instead of giving him money, that he threatened the bishop and the bishop's family, and that he had an inappropriate relationship with a girl who was a member of the church. They are no longer welcome there.

Ouch! If true, that smacks of needing cash for addiction.

[Orthodox6]

Ouch! If true, that smacks of needing cash for addiction.

 

Sure hope not.  Nonetheless, we have been advised to give "people who ask" (the usual terms are derogatory, so I'm trying to avoid them) help "in kind" rather than money.  If the person waxes angry, that often is a signal that the money was desired for "non-appropriate" purposes. 

 

[Butter]

I thought she was asking for guidance on how not to get BCs and SSNs — that she wanted people to link information she could use in court to support her claim that the government has no right to force her to register the kids. 

 

Hmmm... that may be!  I read it as they were forcing her to comply so she needed to know how to do it.  But it very well could be proving it was unnecessary.  Either way, it proves, directly from the mother, they don't have BCs or SSNs.