Letter from church regarding finances

[Kathryn]

Sorry, this got really long! We got a letter in the mail today and we'd like some help interpreting part of it.

 

First, a lot of background on us and the church that may or may not be relevant: I had attended various churches with friends occasionally as a child. DH was raised in a Baptist church in early childhood but after his parents divorced when he was around ten, stopped. When we felt called to Christ, we researched denominations and felt our views were most in line with the Episcopal Church. We looked at parishes near us online and picked one. We called and met with the rector before attending and really liked him. This is the one and only church we looked at. We began attending in January 2009, and became members, were baptized, and confirmed within nine months. We realize now that we should not have trusted what we were told about the church's financial situation (which we were told was VERY good), but didn't realize it at the time. By the time our first "pledge season" rolled around we were already committed. It was then that we found out how deeply in debt the church is over the new sanctuary building that they financed and built and going in the red every month. The rector that we loved retired last summer and the church began a long process of finding a replacement from outside. We also lost our deacon last year (and two assistant priests this year, so if the new guy hadn't showed up when he did, we'd have nobody). We aren't happy with the amount and level of involvement of young children. DH has had an unpleasant encounter with a very active member over our homeschooling. For these and other reasons, when pledge time came last year, we didn't pledge. We weren't sure we wanted to stay and didn't want to commit. We give when we go, we just didn't pledge. I expect that this letter only went to those that didn't pledge, but I don't know. Evidently, from the amount of non-pledgers quoted for this year, others weren't feeling comfortable with the changes and didn't pledge either.

 

Background on the church: Former rector always announced that he had nothing to do with finances--that was the job of the treasurer. He had no idea who gave what and he didn't want to know. He made it clear that his job was not to get involved with people's finances, but that we should give as we felt called. Talk of finances always came from the vestry. When he left, we were told that the search committee was looking for a "priest-in-charge," which is like a trial basis rector. We went almost a year and then were told last month that they'd hired a new rector instead of priest-in-charge. He's been on the job three weeks (the letter is dated a week ago). We've been there once since then.

 

Okay, quoting from the letter (in which was enclosed a pledge card and a statement of what we given in checks this year): "Secondly, it is my belief that everything in our life is spritual. The Christian life is not subject to segregation--everything we say and do is a reflection on our commitment to God and to our church family. This is particularly true regarding our use of financial resources. As Rector, it is my policy to be directly involved with the financial management of the church, and in particular the giving patterns of parishioners. The decision to pledge, and in particular tithing, is an important indicator of spiritual commitment and of life circumstances. As such, I periodically review this information in order to identify areas for pastoral care and spiritual growth. You may be pleased to learn that there are 231 family units at [church name] and 135 of these families are current on their pledges. This is good news and we are grateful for their support. However, I am concerned to report that 66 family units have not made a pledge of financial support in 2012. I would ask your prayerful consideration in making this important spiritual commitment to God and to this church through a completed pledge."

 

Can you tell me your general thoughts on this (letter, situation, anything)? And in particular, we are confused as to the meaning of the two sentences that I've italicized. Thank you!

[MomatHWTK]

Most churches do send out a pledge or commitment letter each year, and often report financial results or situations when doing so. I don't doubt that some clergy check up on giving, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with it. KWIM?

 

I don't know, giving or not could be a sign of some deeper issue, but one would hope that the pastor would choose to get to know people personally to find out how they are doing rather than reading their accounts.

[MindyD]

That would send me packing to another church. I understood the italicized part as saying he periodically checks to see who gives and how much they give to make a judgement on a family's spiritual condition based on that information. I'm not okay with that. There's no biblical mandate that says you have to pledge a certain amount every year. I'm Baptist though. Maybe things are very different with Episcopal?

[Michelle O. in MO]

I'm not one who takes kindly to anyone in the church telling me that I'm not tithing appropriately. I feel tithing is a very personal and private matter between you, your husband and God. I don't feel the person who wrote this letter is trusting in God very much if he's resorted to sending out letters that manipulate people into giving. At least that's what I get from it.

 

The italicized part, I'd say he's trying to say that how much you tithe is directly proportionate to your faith and consequently, obedience to God. If you're not tithing, than you're somehow lacking faith and that needs to be addressed by him.

 

If it were me, I'd leave this church.

[Katy]

The decision to pledge, and in particular tithing, is an important indicator of spiritual commitment and of life circumstances. As such, I periodically review this information in order to identify areas for pastoral care and spiritual growth. ..

 

Can you tell me your general thoughts on this (letter, situation, anything)? And in particular, we are confused as to the meaning of the two sentences that I've italicized. Thank you!

 

He was hired to come on at what he knew was a church in trouble. He's trying to get to the root of those troubles. Spiritual commitment means he's worried you're not committed to the church. You're not. Life circumstances means he's worried you might be in dire financial straights and might need support. He wants to find out.

 

If I were you, I'd 1) listen to a few of his sermons and see if you're learning anything. If you're in the right church, the lessons the Holy Spirit is teaching you all week should be reaffirmed in some way in the sermons. 2) I'd respond either by letter or in a meeting, and express the concerns you've had, and that as a family you've been considering leaving. See how he handles it. It seems to me he's trying to get to the root of a lot of problems that were left when he agreed to take over. If he's hostile or anything that doesn't seem acceptable to you, leave.

 

If you're going to stay, you should fill out the pledge card. They need to work on budgets for the next year. It's not pressure, it's a budgeting concern.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Basically they want your money and are trying to guilt / spiritually manipulate you into giving it. You could reply, "After prayerful consideration we are not pledging but will give as God enables us." Then let the chips fall where they may.

[Kathryn]

Thank you for the replies so far. In case it matters, I realize I didn't say that it's not "pledge season" for us. That happens in November.

[Chris in VA]

Sister, I'm Episcopalian, and dh is a rector.

 

Run, do not walk, to another church.

 

Now.

 

:grouphug:

[Tenaj]

There is no way I would stay in a church where my spirituality was being judged by the Pastor based on whether or not I tithed.

 

I'm the treasurer of our little church. I count the money with another lady. She is the one who actually tracks the giving ONLY because we need to issue statements for tax purposes. Our Pastor NEVER sees those records.

 

I'm always amused when someone apologizes to me because they didn't put their offering in the plate for some reason or another because I honestly do not pay any attention to those envelopes. It's not my business, it's not the Pastor's business, it's not anyone's business.

[BlueTaelon]

I'm not one who takes kindly to anyone in the church telling me that I'm not tithing appropriately. I feel tithing is a very personal and private matter between you, your husband and God. I don't feel the person who wrote this letter is trusting in God very much if he's resorted to sending out letters that manipulate people into giving. At least that's what I get from it.

 

The italicized part, I'd say he's trying to say that how much you tithe is directly proportionate to your faith and consequently, obedience to God. If you're not tithing, than you're somehow lacking faith and that needs to be addressed by him.

 

If it were me, I'd leave this church.

 

 

:iagree: That's exactly what its saying.

[Carol in Cal.]

There are two issues here, IMO.

 

One is whether Christians should commit to supporting and actually support their home church. I think that the answer to that is a resounding yes. Although there is no particular proportion of income that is mandated for NT Christians, regular proportionate giving is clearly taught in the NT. And I think that every member of a church should do that. A pledge just says what amount you're planning on, no big deal. Generally, do one, stick to it unless your financial circumstances change badly, and give over and above it for special drives as you are led.

 

The other issue, though, is what should be done with your information. I don't know the answer to that for Episcopalians. I am Lutheran, and in our church body the financial donations are fairly closely held. When we have pledge drives, the reporting is not so much 'here is what you owe' but 'here is a reminder of your intentions and here is a record for your taxes of what you have actually given this year.' Something as legalistic as calling for a a tithe as a gauge of spiritual commitment, and also the lack of privacy of having someone specifically confront you by name, would be unheard of in our church. Having said that, I had a friend who used to be Baptist, and he said that at his home church they published the names and amounts contributed quarterly on the bulliten boards at church. Different strokes for different folks. So I am not certain what is the 'norm' for Episcopalians.

 

Personally I would be pretty unhappy with a letter like you received though. But it does have some good points. Giving is our priviledge and joy, if we are in a good church that prioritizes Word and Sacrament ministry appropriately; and, how can I say this gently, not wanting to donate at all would be an indication of a level of unease or lack of commitment that, if I felt it (and I have), would concern me about either my membership at that church or my own spiritual state.

[OrganicAnn]

I've read some article that said in generally tithing was on the decline even in churches that historically tithe.

 

For the way that is worded, it is difficult to figure out are they concerned for your because you don't tithe (like maybe your family going through some financial that they don't know about and want to offer you help), but then by talking about the 66 that don't pledge, that changes it. It seems like it is just if you don't give then you aren't a good church member. Hmmm.

[elegantlion]

Basically they want your money and are trying to guilt / spiritually manipulate you into giving it. You could reply, "After prayerful consideration we are not pledging but will give as God enables us." Then let the chips fall where they may.

 

:iagree:

 

Calling out a specific number is not acceptable. It's guilting people into giving.

 

I would think churches, and any other organization that runs off pledges, understands that a certain percentage of pledges will not be fulfilled. People may have the best of intentions and life happens, people may be caught up in the hype of pledge week and not budget appropriately.

 

I would seek another church, honestly.

[mom2scouts]

I'm not one who takes kindly to anyone in the church telling me that I'm not tithing appropriately. I feel tithing is a very personal and private matter between you, your husband and God. I don't feel the person who wrote this letter is trusting in God very much if he's resorted to sending out letters that manipulate people into giving. At least that's what I get from it.

 

The italicized part, I'd say he's trying to say that how much you tithe is directly proportionate to your faith and consequently, obedience to God. If you're not tithing, than you're somehow lacking faith and that needs to be addressed by him.

 

If it were me, I'd leave this church.

:iagree:

[KnitWit]

Yikes!

 

Inappropriate!

[Bluegoat]

I would be very uncomfortable with this. I'm Anglican.

 

To an extent, what he has said is very true - there is no separation between the financial side of our commitment to the church and our spiritual practice. When we hold back financially, it can be a serious indicator of a lack of faith. And I would say that is is not improper for the rector to discuss both the importance of tithing and alms-giving with members of the parish either in some kind of general letter or perhaps even in person.

 

And in a parish in serious financial trouble like this, it does seem appropriate to be very frank with the congregation about financial issues. And it is not surprising they have chosen a rector with the view to putting the financial side of things in order. (Also, as far as I'm aware a priest-in-charge is not usually a trial position, but a temporary one - someone to cover the job until a permanent rector is found in most cases.)

 

However, there are good reasons that rectors typically do not look into the specific financial records of what individual members give. I don't see anything in this letter to indicate that those issues have been somehow made unimportant.

 

I also think it is rather fishy that it seems that serious lack of good financial leadership in the parish is being implicitly blamed on the lack of giving by parishioners. Of course it will ultimately be up to parishioners to settle the debts of the parish, but it seems to me the parishioners are the ones who should be asking some hard questions of the leadership of the parish and considering their spiritual health with regard to financial matters.

 

It may be that it is because the parish has shown itself to be unable to take care of its financial situation that this rector has been appointed and is taking a more active involvement. I would be very interested to know how the bishop fits into that. In the Anglican world typically bishops must appoint rectors and in cases where parishes are in financial trouble they may not give the parish a free hand in deciding on who they want. I strikes me as possible that this rector has been sent into the parish for just this purpose.

 

I think I might be inclined to meet with the new rector and make all this quite clear, and especially that you are very uncomfortable with the rector having financial information, and that you are very unhappy about being misled about the situation of the parish.

 

It is an unfortunate fact that in the Episcopal Church as well as here in the Anglican Church of Canada, many many parishes and diocese are in serious financial trouble. They are bleeding money and members. THe response of the institutions isn't always entirely healthy IMO.

[Dustybug]

That would send me packing to another church. I understood the italicized part as saying he periodically checks to see who gives and how much they give to make a judgement on a family's spiritual condition based on that information. I'm not okay with that. There's no biblical mandate that says you have to pledge a certain amount every year. I'm Baptist though. Maybe things are very different with Episcopal?

 

I'm not one who takes kindly to anyone in the church telling me that I'm not tithing appropriately. I feel tithing is a very personal and private matter between you, your husband and God. I don't feel the person who wrote this letter is trusting in God very much if he's resorted to sending out letters that manipulate people into giving. At least that's what I get from it.

 

The italicized part, I'd say he's trying to say that how much you tithe is directly proportionate to your faith and consequently, obedience to God. If you're not tithing, than you're somehow lacking faith and that needs to be addressed by him.

 

If it were me, I'd leave this church.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[IsabelC]

Sounds like your Rector might be trying to say something along the lines of "If you don't pledge, then either you are not really committed to your faith (as represented by my church) so you need spiritual help, OR you are having money problems so you need financial charity. Please tell me which it is so we can help you."

 

Or possibly he is trying to say "I would really appreciate if everybody would pledge a fixed amount as this would make the church's finances easier to manage."

 

However it is coming across more like "Give us your money now or else you are a Bad Person who isn't worthy of coming to church". Which is against the principles of every Christian denomination afaik.

[JumpyTheFrog]

He is trying to manipulate you into giving more money. Christians should give, but tithing is an OT command. Do you know any Levites? Neither do I. Tithing was to support the Levites, who had no land of their own. (There were also other tithes collected which apparantly each family used to throw a feast.) Since this church has no Levites, it has no business trying to demand you tithe.

 

The NT talks about giving with a cheerful spirit, not reluctantly or under compulsion. Save your money for something you excited to give to. Or if you fear you are being stingy, ask God to change your heart. But don't let anyone guilt you into giving or promising to give.

[marychance]

Sister, I'm Episcopalian, and dh is a rector.

 

Run, do not walk, to another church.

 

Now.

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm with her. When I was a kid I often went with my grandma to the Lutheran church and when I became an adult I joined. They brought in a pastor to do the exact same thing. The church was in trouble financially and he was a former insurance salesman. In the matter of three years the church went from a place of spirituality and worship to a place of business. I can barely stand to go there anymore. Everything is always about money. We have people in our town who desperately need help due to the economy and they are spending thousands on a new LED church sign.

 

DH is a Catholic and I have been going to church with him. Though the theology and I don't necessarily mesh it gives me a lot of comfort that they built a beautiful new cathedral with available funds and paid it off within 5 years. The priest recently announced that in 16 years he's never taken a salary. Good luck.

[Plink]

That would send me packing to another church. I understood the italicized part as saying he periodically checks to see who gives and how much they give to make a judgement on a family's spiritual condition based on that information. I'm not okay with that. There's no biblical mandate that says you have to pledge a certain amount every year. I'm Baptist though. Maybe things are very different with Episcopal?

 

:iagree: What a horrible example of how to treat people. That letter gives me the creeps. I don't think I would be able to stay in a church with policies like that.

 

I would schedule a meeting with the pastor asap to talk about it.

[FaithManor]

Dh is the treasurer of our church and he says this type of letter is not appropriate and there is inherent danger in a pastor being individually confrontational about money, even if it is in letter form. It is VERY unethical to announce X number of families have not lived up to our expectations.

 

The church should have NO WAY of knowing what percentage of your income you give. This is a matter between you and God. Any church that demands financial records, tax records, earning statements, etc. so the powers that be can determine whether or not you meet their standard, is over-stepping their bounds big time. Anyone who attempts to judge you on external merits in order to "figure out" they think you are or are not giving enough, seriously need to examine themselves.

 

He's attended some legal seminars on church finances and one of the big issues that can get churches in trouble legally is lack of privacy protection for the congregants. For this reason, dh has always made us give in cash, unmarked envelopes for most of the years of our marriage. We give generously and yet, if one looked at a record sheet, it would show $0 beside out name. It's NOBODY's business but God's. We do use checks for giving to larger organizations, non-church orgs, because the level of anonymity anyway. If we give $25.00 to World Vision, so what...we don't know anyone there, they aren't passing an offering plate, and there isn't any shaming, guilt tripping, or messing with church family relationships that they can do unlike your home church for which the stakes are high when things go badly.

 

Most people also do not know that pledges are legally binding. If you fill out a pledge and sign it, you are legally bound to give that money in x time frame no matter how your circumstances might change. While 99.9% of churches are not inclined to sue you for the money, we do know of two evangelical churches here in the U.S. (and I'm not naming them because there isn't any sense in causing a kerfuffle about it and getting the kilts going this late at night :D), that sued for pledges in small claims court when attendees changed their minds about pledges for their respective building programs.

 

Most church budgets should be prayerfully considered based on the previous year's giving and with an eye to future needs, but not based on pledges. Our church based it's budget on last year's giving minus 20% because of high unemployment rates. We adjusted the spending accordingly. Overages will go into savings accounts and the church board will decide how much to keep there and how much to spend on this or that ministry.

 

I'm afraid that I see red-flags here. I'm not saying you should leave, but you do have questions that should be answered and you shouldn't fill out the pledge card. Instead, prayerfully consider what the Lord would have you do and do it. Don't inform anyone. Just be faithful to the Lord. See what happens. If things are not kosher, you will get more red flags. It's possible that if enough congregants raise a concern, church leadership will inform the rector that he has overstepped his boundaries and it can be handled gracefully. That's always the hope. However, if it escalates, then I would not recommend staying around for the kerfuffle that will follow. They are almost always very, very painful and do not turn out well.

 

:grouphug: Faith

[elfgivas]

Sister, I'm Episcopalian, and dh is a rector.

 

Run, do not walk, to another church.

 

Now.

 

:grouphug:

 

:iagree:

 

i am/was a ucc pastor. (currently, i'm at home with dc homeschooling :001_smile:)

 

Shake the Dust from Your Feet - Luke 9:3-5

 

He said to the apostles, "When you travel, don't take a walking stick. Also, don't carry a bag, food, or money. Take for your trip only the clothes you are wearing. When you go into a house, stay there until it is time to leave. If the people in the town will not welcome you, go outside the town and shake their dust off of your feet. This will be a warning to them." (ERV)

 

i especially like the "stay there until it is time to leave", because it indicates that there will be a time to stay and a time to leave.

 

:grouphug: you could have a discussion with the new rector, as several have suggested, either asking if he were meaning to equate giving with spirituality, and letting him know you hadn't pledged, as you were trying to discern whether it was time to leave per Luke 9, and didn't want to make promises you might not be able to keep. or to say what jean suggested, "that after prayerful consideration, you are not felt led to pledge", and maybe add that "indeed reluctantly you feel you may be being called to leave". and then listen. i do think if it isn't too hard, its worth talking and listening (and then praying) before leaving.

 

blessings,

ann

[Kathryn]

Thank you to everyone who's responded thus far. You're confirming our thoughts on the situation. DH was sure you would, I thought maybe we were crazy.

 

The italicized part, I'd say he's trying to say that how much you tithe is directly proportionate to your faith and consequently, obedience to God. If you're not tithing, than you're somehow lacking faith and that needs to be addressed by him.

 

This is what DH thought and I feared.

 

Sister, I'm Episcopalian, and dh is a rector.

 

Run, do not walk, to another church.

 

Now.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

Ditto. Both my spouse and I are Episcopal clergy.

 

Thank you to both of you. I'm glad to have insight from those who know intimately what should be expected from our specific denomination as well.

 

...

He's attended some legal seminars on church finances and one of the big issues that can get churches in trouble legally is lack of privacy protection for the congregants. For this reason, dh has always made us give in cash, unmarked envelopes for most of the years of our marriage. We give generously and yet, if one looked at a record sheet, it would show $0 beside out name. It's NOBODY's business but God's.

...

Most church budgets should be prayerfully considered based on the previous year's giving and with an eye to future needs, but not based on pledges. Our church based it's budget on last year's giving minus 20% because of high unemployment rates. We adjusted the spending accordingly. Overages will go into savings accounts and the church board will decide how much to keep there and how much to spend on this or that ministry.

...

 

This is EXACTLY what DH has said since we began going to church. He has big issues with the idea of pledging, though we did it while we felt faithful members of our parish. I wasn't aware of it being legally binding, but we knew we definitely didn't want to "pledge" and then not fulfill it because we left the church. We didn't get envelopes and I've only written checks a few times this year, so most of our giving was in cash and not reflected on the statement that was mailed with this letter, so I'm sure it looks to him like we must be In need of spiritual growth.

[bettyandbob]

Sister, I'm Episcopalian, and dh is a rector.

 

Run, do not walk, to another church.

 

Now.

 

:grouphug:

 

 

:iagree:

 

what she said. I've been Episcopalian all my life. This is just wrong.

[shanvan]

He's attended some legal seminars on church finances and one of the big issues that can get churches in trouble legally is lack of privacy protection for the congregants. For this reason, dh has always made us give in cash, unmarked envelopes for most of the years of our marriage. We give generously and yet, if one looked at a record sheet, it would show $0 beside out name. It's NOBODY's business but God's.

 

This is what we do as well for many reasons. I think many at our church think it's very strange that we don't take envelopes.

 

Most people also do not know that pledges are legally binding. If you fill out a pledge and sign it, you are legally bound to give that money in x time frame no matter how your circumstances might change. While 99.9% of churches are not inclined to sue you for the money, we do know of two evangelical churches here in the U.S. (and I'm not naming them because there isn't any sense in causing a kerfuffle about it and getting the kilts going this late at night :D), that sued for pledges in small claims court when attendees changed their minds about pledges for their respective building programs.

 

Most church budgets should be prayerfully considered based on the previous year's giving and with an eye to future needs, but not based on pledges. Our church based it's budget on last year's giving minus 20% because of high unemployment rates. We adjusted the spending accordingly. Overages will go into savings accounts and the church board will decide how much to keep there and how much to spend on this or that ministry.

 

I'm afraid that I see red-flags here. I'm not saying you should leave, but you do have questions that should be answered and you shouldn't fill out the pledge card. Instead, prayerfully consider what the Lord would have you do and do it. Don't inform anyone. Just be faithful to the Lord. See what happens. If things are not kosher, you will get more red flags. It's possible that if enough congregants raise a concern, church leadership will inform the rector that he has overstepped his boundaries and it can be handled gracefully. That's always the hope. However, if it escalates, then I would not recommend staying around for the kerfuffle that will follow. They are almost always very, very painful and do not turn out well.

 

:grouphug: Faith

 

I did not know that pledges could be considered legally binding, but I have always thought it unethical for churches to ask for them. Even if not legally binding, I would think many people would feel bound to abide by them even if their circumstances drastically changed--like if Dh became unemployed, or some unforeseen medical expenses became necessary. And, I can see that a church could use a pledge to exert pressure for a family to meet that pledge no matter the circumstances.

 

We also do not like speculating about the future of our finances. Only God knows what a day may bring forth, let alone a year. To us it has always seemed wrong for a church to be counting on money that may not even be a part of God's plan for the future.

 

Proverbs 27

Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

 

[QueenCat]

This is EXACTLY what DH has said since we began going to church. He has big issues with the idea of pledging, though we did it while we felt faithful members of our parish..

 

Although I don't care for how your church is dealing with this right now, I do see the need for pledging. Pledges help the church develop their budget. How can they make a budget if they don't know approximately how much money the congregation expects to give? Yes, things change and pledges need to be amended, just like our home budget's change but an overall idea of what will be given is reasonable imho.

[Juniper]

Run!!!!!:glare:

[Kathryn]

Although I don't care for how your church is dealing with this right now, I do see the need for pledging. Pledges help the church develop their budget. How can they make a budget if they don't know approximately how much money the congregation expects to give? Yes, things change and pledges need to be amended, just like our home budget's change but an overall idea of what will be given is reasonable imho.

 

I agree with you to an extent and that's why we did it. But, I do see DH's point that it should ideally be done how Faith described: looking at previous years, the economy, and any big changes in membership (like if the millionaire in the front pew died).

[ktgrok]

wow. I'm episcopalian as well, and that letter is rude and invasive and I wouldn't be happy at all. I've never seen anything like that at any Episcopal church. Can you look at some other parishes? Usually there are a few that are more child friendly as well...so you might be able to find everything you would like.

 

YIKES!

[gardenmom5]

sounds like they want you to give more money than you are currently giving. I think the way they presented this desire is inappropriate as "freewill" offerings are just that, "freewill".

[Little Nyssa]

I'm EO, and I have to say that this letter would not bother me at all.

 

Except I think it does not show good people-skills that the new rector sent it out after he'd been there only 3 weeks!

 

I would base my decision about staying at this church on the whole picture, not just this letter. :grouphug:

[joannqn]

Basically they want your money and are trying to guilt / spiritually manipulate you into giving it. You could reply, "After prayerful consideration we are not pledging but will give as God enables us." Then let the chips fall where they may.

 

:iagree:

[LittleIzumi]

He was hired to come on at what he knew was a church in trouble. He's trying to get to the root of those troubles. Spiritual commitment means he's worried you're not committed to the church. You're not. Life circumstances means he's worried you might be in dire financial straights and might need support. He wants to find out.

 

If I were you, I'd 1) listen to a few of his sermons and see if you're learning anything. If you're in the right church, the lessons the Holy Spirit is teaching you all week should be reaffirmed in some way in the sermons. 2) I'd respond either by letter or in a meeting, and express the concerns you've had, and that as a family you've been considering leaving. See how he handles it. It seems to me he's trying to get to the root of a lot of problems that were left when he agreed to take over. If he's hostile or anything that doesn't seem acceptable to you, leave.

 

If you're going to stay, you should fill out the pledge card. They need to work on budgets for the next year. It's not pressure, it's a budgeting concern.

 

Sounds like your Rector might be trying to say something along the lines of "If you don't pledge, then either you are not really committed to your faith (as represented by my church) so you need spiritual help, OR you are having money problems so you need financial charity. Please tell me which it is so we can help you."

 

Or possibly he is trying to say "I would really appreciate if everybody would pledge a fixed amount as this would make the church's finances easier to manage."

 

However it is coming across more like "Give us your money now or else you are a Bad Person who isn't worthy of coming to church". Which is against the principles of every Christian denomination afaik.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[tomandlorih]

That would send me packing to another church. I understood the italicized part as saying he periodically checks to see who gives and how much they give to make a judgement on a family's spiritual condition based on that information. I'm not okay with that. There's no biblical mandate that says you have to pledge a certain amount every year. I'm Baptist though. Maybe things are very different with Episcopal?

:iagree: This! :grouphug:

[Melissa in Australia]

Basically they want your money and are trying to guilt / spiritually manipulate you into giving it. You could reply, "After prayerful consideration we are not pledging but will give as God enables us." Then let the chips fall where they may.

:iagree::iagree:

[Parrothead]

Wow. Not only rude but manipulative to boot. The old saying, "Begin as you mean to go," pops to mine. I think I'd be looking for a new parish.

[sunnylady303]

"Secondly, it is my belief that everything in our life is spritual. The Christian life is not subject to segregation--everything we say and do is a reflection on our commitment to God and to our church family. This is particularly true regarding our use of financial resources. As Rector, it is my policy to be directly involved with the financial management of the church, and in particular the giving patterns of parishioners. The decision to pledge, and in particular tithing, is an important indicator of spiritual commitment and of life circumstances. As such, I periodically review this information in order to identify areas for pastoral care and spiritual growth. "

 

You know, I believe the part I highlighted absolutely. Finances are too often put in a separate box from faith. However, I think it is completely missing the point to assume the parts that you italicized. Because there is no segregation, there are all kinds of ways to give. Who is he to assume that your giving to the church is the only way that you express (financially speaking) your "spiritual commitment"? I am a pastor by training though I've not served a church for several years for a variety of reasons, and that's just stupid and offensive. Especially for a new rector. I believe strongly that it is faithful to preach and teach on giving (with the church as part of that) but that I do not need to know who gives what. In fact, I think it is harmful for the church the way it is set up now.

 

The church is not the rector but if you were already unhappy it might be time to look for a new place. If you stay, I would have a conversation about that with him. It seems terribly presumptuous of him.

[Hoot]

We have people in our town who desperately need help due to the economy and they are spending thousands on a new LED church sign.

 

Do you go to my church? :glare:

I'm so fed up with the commercialization of churches these days. They build these mega-churches that do nothing but feed their own egos. Why not small community churches where the pastor can actually know the names and faces of his parishioners and the debt is manageable or non-existent? Or, even better, why not house churches? What's wrong with a dozen families meeting in each others' homes or a park? This is the kind of church I'm looking for. I actually quit going to our "home" church a few years ago because I'm fed up with this mega-church, bigger is better commercialization mentality within the church. DH doesn't like that I've stopped going but I can't in good conscience go where I feel that the pastor is so self-absorbed.

 

As for the letter that the OP posted, I would say that it's hard to ascertain the motives of a pastor or church with a letter like that. Set up a meeting to discuss your concerns and go from there. My knee jerk reaction is not a good one, but that is also colored by my own personal church experiences and that's not fair to a pastor who MAY have meant that letter to be completely harmless.

 

Ummm sorry for hijacking your thread. :tongue_smilie:

[sunnylady303]

Do you go to my church? :glare:

I'm so fed up with the commercialization of churches these days. They build these mega-churches that do nothing but feed their own egos. Why not small community churches where the pastor can actually know the names and faces of his parishioners and the debt is manageable or non-existent? Or, even better, why not house churches? What's wrong with a dozen families meeting in each others' homes or a park?

 

:iagree: :iagree::iagree: Preach it!!

[FaithManor]

Although I don't care for how your church is dealing with this right now, I do see the need for pledging. Pledges help the church develop their budget. How can they make a budget if they don't know approximately how much money the congregation expects to give? Yes, things change and pledges need to be amended, just like our home budget's change but an overall idea of what will be given is reasonable imho.

 

 

 

A reasonable estimate may be determined based on the previous year's offerings and financial picture.

 

 

Again, having been through the legal seminars with dh, pledges are not HEALTHY things for churches to be involved in...it gives "leverage" to abuse, and the law is on their side if unscrupulous leadership get their noses out of joint. It also means that they base their budget on projected income that really, they have no idea if they will get. But, a budget based on previous years' averages, means they have a reasonable chance that X money is likely to come in offerings. Dh says at these seminars, the number of churches that went under due to overspending based on "pledges" was staggering. People often pledge more than they are actually going to be able to give. Weekly averages are much more accurate for budgeting.

 

 

Again, he urges people to NOT sign pledges. Also, the Bible says to not make an oath lightly - Matthew 5[33] Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' and Numbers 30:2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

 

 

So, if you sign a pledge, by virtue of it being legally binding, it is very much like an oath. You need to follow through with it. If circumstances change and you move, leave the church, etc. you have made a legally binding and a spiritually binding oath to that entity. It then changes what you can do financially for your own church family in your new place.

 

He also says, "A pledge card is a very, very poor substitute for faith based living and logical decision making (Come let us reason together) by a church board and for personal integrity from the congregation."

 

 

Faith

[Harriet Vane]

That would send me packing to another church. I understood the italicized part as saying he periodically checks to see who gives and how much they give to make a judgement on a family's spiritual condition based on that information. I'm not okay with that. There's no biblical mandate that says you have to pledge a certain amount every year. I'm Baptist though. Maybe things are very different with Episcopal?

 

:iagree:

 

I currently attend an Evangelical Free Church, though I did enjoy a few months at an Episcopal church a number of years ago. I don't think denomination matters here. I think the pastor's scrutiny of finances and connection of them to spiritual health is inappropriate.

[Cammie]

 

Most people also do not know that pledges are legally binding. If you fill out a pledge and sign it, you are legally bound to give that money in x time frame no matter how your circumstances might change. While 99.9% of churches are not inclined to sue you for the money, we do know of two evangelical churches here in the U.S. (and I'm not naming them because there isn't any sense in causing a kerfuffle about it and getting the kilts going this late at night :D), that sued for pledges in small claims court when attendees changed their minds about pledges for their respective building programs.

 

 

This is interesting. A promise may or may not be legally binding. Unlike a contract in which there is consideration for the mutual promise a pledge is only one party promising to do something. Now, if a person makes a promise and the second person does something in reliance on that promise (gives up a job based on the promise of another job) then you get into all sorts of equitable issues like promissory estoppel. I could see, for example, if you made a $1million pledge to a building fund and the church went ahead and built a building for $1million there might be an equitable case to be made. But a pledge to church being legally binding...? Small claims court is a whole different animal. You mention two churches sued, but did they win? I would like to hear more about this if you have any additional information.

 

Edited to add: my dad is a church pastor. In his denomination (Congregational) or in his church at least the pastors have NO information regarding the pledges of members. The treasurer is duty bound NOT to reveal any financial information to the pastors.

[Bluegoat]

A reasonable estimate may be determined based on the previous year's offerings and financial picture.

 

 

Again, having been through the legal seminars with dh, pledges are not HEALTHY things for churches to be involved in...it gives "leverage" to abuse, and the law is on their side if unscrupulous leadership get their noses out of joint. It also means that they base their budget on projected income that really, they have no idea if they will get. But, a budget based on previous years' averages, means they have a reasonable chance that X money is likely to come in offerings. Dh says at these seminars, the number of churches that went under due to overspending based on "pledges" was staggering. People often pledge more than they are actually going to be able to give. Weekly averages are much more accurate for budgeting.

 

 

Again, he urges people to NOT sign pledges. Also, the Bible says to not make an oath lightly - Matthew 5[33] Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' and Numbers 30:2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

 

 

So, if you sign a pledge, by virtue of it being legally binding, it is very much like an oath. You need to follow through with it. If circumstances change and you move, leave the church, etc. you have made a legally binding and a spiritually binding oath to that entity. It then changes what you can do financially for your own church family in your new place.

 

He also says, "A pledge card is a very, very poor substitute for faith based living and logical decision making (Come let us reason together) by a church board and for personal integrity from the congregation."

 

 

Faith

 

 

THis is what my parish does. The budget committee developed the budget at the beginning of the year based on what we see in the previous years giving, and this is broken down by month so that we know what the pattern of giving is. We can even do some analysis of what kind of patterns of giving ther is by individuals, but not attached to names - for example we might find that one or two members were contributing a substantial amount of the offerings, or we can get ideas about demographic changes that may be significant, which would be useful to know. But that would not be attached to individual names.

 

We publish the outline of the budget and then through the year we publish in the bulletin where we are in relation to budgeted offerings. We tend to have a bit of a crunch at the end of the year and from time to time that gets mentioned as well.

 

Sometimes individuals do offer to commit money to particular things, but I don't that is quite the same as asking for pledges.

[tristangrace]

I agree that how one handles finances is a spiritual matter. It's where the rubber hits the road.

 

I don't think it's appropriate for a rector to know who's giving what, but I do think it's appropriate for him to know general statistics, which the treasurer can provide him.

 

I'm not familiar with the practice of giving pledges, except during building campaigns, etc.

 

Unless the rector was always talking about money, or applying guilt rather than leadership in financial matters, the letter that you quoted would not have raised my eyebrows.

[kolamum]

I, too, am not that denomination. However, it makes me feel as though someone is trying to shame or bully me into paying. I wouldn't like that & would probably walk away entirely.

[TravelingChris]

We had some mail problems within our community last year around the time of the pledge drive. (November, I think). Also, a basket of pledge cards was put in the wrong place and did not get to the financial person. So suddenly there was an apparent huge dropoff in pledges, but not in giving. The trustees were perplexed. They did send a letter indicating how many giving units had responded but that turned out to be a good thing. Because then the office started receiving lots of calls along the lines of 'but I turned in the pledge card'/ Anyway, they located the basket, and others who had never received material in the mail ended up getting it and the whole deal turned out to be nothing important. There was no sudden huge swing in people not liking the church or anything like that. Just some mail and basket kerfuffles. Oh and the pastors never had any idea whose pledge cards were received or not. It was the financial secretary and the trustees who are in charge of finances.

[Dmmetler]

I'd find a new church.

 

What sealed the deal for me with our former church was when, after several months that we hadn't attended because we'd been church shopping due to DD being miserable due to being excluded from the other kids (who attended the church's school and therefore were together all week, while DD wasn't), and hearing nothing (but continuing to give via automatic transfer), I got a call from the pastor about not getting my pledge card for the coming year. So DD and I weren't important, but our pledge was. Yeah.

Edited July 25, 2012 by dmmetler

[FaithManor]

This is interesting. A promise may or may not be legally binding. Unlike a contract in which there is consideration for the mutual promise a pledge is only one party promising to do something. Now, if a person makes a promise and the second person does something in reliance on that promise (gives up a job based on the promise of another job) then you get into all sorts of equitable issues like promissory estoppel. I could see, for example, if you made a $1million pledge to a building fund and the church went ahead and built a building for $1million there might be an equitable case to be made. But a pledge to church being legally binding...? Small claims court is a whole different animal. You mention two churches sued, but did they win? I would like to hear more about this if you have any additional information.

 

Edited to add: my dad is a church pastor. In his denomination (Congregational) or in his church at least the pastors have NO information regarding the pledges of members. The treasurer is duty bound NOT to reveal any financial information to the pastors.

 

 

Yes, the two churches in question did win and collect. I cannot begin to express how I feel about it.

 

A local private school is going under because of the pledge system. In order to keep tuition reasonable, they've taken pledges (apparently many grandparents, aunts, uncles, and alumni of the school do this), and they've built that into their budget. Well, due to high unemployment, hourly wages falling, high repossession rate, and no job growth in this area, much less Michigan, a lot of people have moved, or have decided they can't fulfill their pledge. Unfortunately, after Governor Snyder was elected, many people erroneously believed the man could work an instant miracle and Michigan would turn around right away and their lot in life would be better. Didn't happen. The school based it's budget on tuition PLUS pledges instead of looking at their average income over the years since the housing bubble burst and Michigan hit a recession that borders a depression in some areas. If they had gone with averages over the previous 5 years, shaved 10% off that just in case, they would be okay. Well, they spent big time based on those pledges that didn't come in and the bank won't loan them money to cover their cash flow problem. A local church gave them money to make their last payroll the first of June, but vendors aren't going to get their money, and they'll be out of business for the 2012-2013 school year.

 

At any rate, I wouldn't base pledge or don't pledge on the court cases because I would hope that the vast majority of churches in the U.S. would not choose to be litigious :tongue_smilie:. But the greater issue is, making an oath which should never be taken lightly, and the fact that the pledge system is not sound financial operating practice. Just look at missionaries, how many of them have people pledge X support and then it doesn't come in and whether or not they go back to field x and what happens on field x is determined by pledges for the future and not averages of what has actually come in past years.

 

Faith

[VeritasMama]

I agree that how one handles finances is a spiritual matter. It's where the rubber hits the road.

 

I don't think it's appropriate for a rector to know who's giving what, but I do think it's appropriate for him to know general statistics, which the treasurer can provide him.

 

I'm not familiar with the practice of giving pledges, except during building campaigns, etc.

 

Unless the rector was always talking about money, or applying guilt rather than leadership in financial matters, the letter that you quoted would not have raised my eyebrows.

 

:iagree:

 

I didn't see this as him wanting to know the individual giving, but rather he wanted to get an idea of what the overall patterns were. If a church is serving the needs of its members and its community, then it is natural people will be more generous. If people are unhappy with the church, or if the church is failing in its mission, then the finances will reflect that.

 

Since he is new to the parish, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is just trying to get a handle on the situation and figure out how to stop the bleeding and get the patient back on the road to recovery.

 

It is simply the truth that pastors who don't pay attention to finances end up with churches that are in the red. It doesn't matter how many lay people are "running" the finances, the priest needs to at least have some oversight. Every parish I've encountered where the priest did not get involved or pay attention ran into grave financial issues. We are experiencing this in our own parish with a priest who is moving on and leaving a mess for the next priest.

 

That said, if in the future I recieved an individualized letter about my own personal tithing, not just a general one about the parish as a whole, that would give me reason for pause. I'm not talking about wanting an estimate for how much I will contribute in the upcoming year, that is helpful for them to have for budget planning. I'm talking about if I recieved a letter admonishing me for not giving enough. Then I would probably contanct my bishop and lodge a complaint.

Edited July 25, 2012 by VeritasMama
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