S/O about Mayim Bialik; Not 'forcing manners' on children?

[Night Elf]

I've always encouraged the words 'please' and 'thank you', by saying it gently as a reminder and they realized they forgot to say it. I never had to tell them to say it. It's not something I would have felt the need to enforce.

 

However, I do not believe in forcing a child to say 'I'm sorry'. Even as a child, I knew that a forced apology was not sincere. It was a way to appease a teacher/parent so I (or a child being forced to apologize to me) wouldn't get into more trouble. I believe that teaches kids that they can do the incorrect thing and immediately apologize, knowing the matter will be dropped. I've seen that behavior all too often. It's a very easy game for kids to learn.

[Guest submarines]

Yeah, I've heard/seen that kind of stuff before. She didn't come up with anything new.

 

Children do not come out of the womb knowing how to behave in a socially acceptable way. They must be instructed, preferably by parents who love them and who gently correct as well as consistently instruct, and who also model the behaviors they want their dc to have (although modeling isn't enough; there must also be instruction, and sometimes, correction).

 

Note to self: stay away from Mayim's dc. :blink:

 

Really? :confused: I know many people, myself included, who have exceptionally polite children and who approached the issue in the same / similar way as MB. My kids are almost daily complimented in public on how polite they are! :001_smile:

 

There was a somewhat awkward (for me) stage when they were little and I simply said "Thank you" on their behalf.

 

Do you think that a 2 or 3 year old who says "thank you" because he is constantly prompted has any understanding of manners? Most don't.

[DianeW88]

Yeah, I've heard/seen that kind of stuff before. She didn't come up with anything new.

 

Children do not come out of the womb knowing how to behave in a socially acceptable way. They must be instructed, preferably by parents who love them and who gently correct as well as consistently instruct, and who also model the behaviors they want their dc to have (although modeling isn't enough; there must also be instruction, and sometimes, correction).

 

Note to self: stay away from Mayim's dc. :blink:

 

:iagree:And amen!!

[Rebecca VA]

I believe in "fake it till you make it." If you're taught consistently to use please, thank you, and excuse me, then those words will become automatic to you. It's a lot easier to have your manners on auto-pilot than to have to think *every single time* about whether you feel like saying them or if it's the right occasion. The words just come out of your mouth, and everyone is at ease.

 

Why would someone *not* want to teach their children a simple act that makes everyone's life more pleasant?

 

I'm going to add more here. Suppose you want your child to be sincere when he says please, thank you, and excuse me? What if he's in a situation where he doesn't feel like saying them, but it's the right thing to do? Would you still want him to be "true to his feelings" even if it means that he will be considered a jerk by everyone around him?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Rebecca VA

[Penelope]

I think it's funny that she is billed as an expert when she only has a couple of very young children.

 

I'd guess that what she writes about parenting will look a little different a few years down the road.

 

Besides, if she is working, she probably has a nanny. Maybe the nanny is insisting on good manners behind her back and that is why it seems to be working out so well? :D

[Carrie12345]

I think it's funny that she is billed as an expert when she only has a couple of very young children.

 

I'd guess that what she writes about parenting will look a little different a few years down the road.

 

Besides, if she is working, she probably has a nanny. Maybe the nanny is insisting on good manners behind her back and that is why it seems to be working out so well? :D

 

She also happens to have a PhD in neuroscience. Her husband is a sahd, no nanny.

[jillian]

:iagree:

Just because she hasn't TOLD them to say certain things doesn't mean they don't. I sure as heck never told MY kids to yell at lousy drivers, but they picked that up just fine! :tongue_smilie:

Same here lol

[Night Elf]

I'm going to add more here. Suppose you want your child to be sincere when he says please, thank you, and excuse me? What if he's in a situation where he doesn't feel like saying them, but it's the right thing to do? Would you still want him to be "true to his feelings" even if it means that he will be considered a jerk by everyone around him?

 

Ah.. I find that as a double edged sword. Not saying them, as you say, makes you a jerk. People think you are ungrateful and insincere. Having to say them, however, means you learn to play a game with people. You understand that people who say those things are as insincere as you are, so therefore you never trust the words anyway. Those types of manners are a social convention, like saying 'Bless you' when someone sneezes even if you don't know that person.

 

But yes, I teach those manners and I explain how they are social conventions. I'm on autopilot myself. If someone bumps into me, meaning it's their fault and not mine, I either apologize or say 'excuse me' as if it's my fault. I do that to keep the peace. It's not sincere but it is impolite to point out that someone is doing something wrong. I just accept it and grumble about it later.

[LibraryLover]

Ah.. I find that as a double edged sword. Not saying them, as you say, makes you a jerk. People think you are ungrateful and insincere. Having to say them, however, means you learn to play a game with people. You understand that people who say those things are as insincere as you are, so therefore you never trust the words anyway. Those types of manners are a social convention, like saying 'Bless you' when someone sneezes even if you don't know that person.

 

But yes, I teach those manners and I explain how they are social conventions. I'm on autopilot myself. If someone bumps into me, meaning it's their fault and not mine, I either apologize or say 'excuse me' as if it's my fault. I do that to keep the peace. It's not sincere but it is impolite to point out that someone is doing something wrong. I just accept it and grumble about it later.

 

 

LOL So true.

[mommymilkies]

Ah.. I find that as a double edged sword. Not saying them, as you say, makes you a jerk. People think you are ungrateful and insincere. Having to say them, however, means you learn to play a game with people. You understand that people who say those things are as insincere as you are, so therefore you never trust the words anyway. Those types of manners are a social convention, like saying 'Bless you' when someone sneezes even if you don't know that person.

 

But yes, I teach those manners and I explain how they are social conventions. I'm on autopilot myself. If someone bumps into me, meaning it's their fault and not mine, I either apologize or say 'excuse me' as if it's my fault. I do that to keep the peace. It's not sincere but it is impolite to point out that someone is doing something wrong. I just accept it and grumble about it later.

 

I do the same thing.

[catz]

Due to having such varied children, I now see that successful parenting styles, has less to do with the parent and more to do with the child.

 

:iagree: All this says to me is Mayim has a certain kind of kid if that is working out for her. Honestly, I don't force my kids to say it either. But if they say "GET ME A CUP", I don't do it and I ask them to listen to their tone and how they said it. And somehow I ended up with 2 kids that generally say please and thank you very easily. These are interesting social conventions. In other languages, if you said please and thank you as much as we do you get some funny looks. Ask me how I know. :D

 

Anyway - some kids just pick up social conventions through modeling. Some need explicit instruction, role play, or "forcing". And even though she has a PhD in neuroscience, I'd probably take quite a bit more stock in her thoughts if she had older kids. I know I've definitely "matured" in terms of how I think of parenting. I have friends with kids all over the place in terms of personalities and quirks and it's definitely not a one size fits all approach IMHO.

[BigMamaBird]

Hey now, don't insult wolves! The pack disciplines!

 

:D

[momtoamiracle]

didn't read all posts but I know my son has picked up manners from us. We always have said please and thank you when dealing with him since an infant so it comes naturally for him, usually.

 

 

 

there are times, when dealing with other people, that I will prompt him to say thank you and please. As a small child I know he will not always remember, but I do want him to know that when someone gives him something, - whether it be a toy, a candy, or a compliment, he needs to say thank you every time. I certainly don't do it in an ugly way, just a gentle reminder. He's never resisted and he doesn't seem damaged by it either.

[eternalknot]

I come from a culture that places very high emphasis on social manners.

 

My kids have managed to pick up on this, perhaps because they see it modeled, but perhaps more because I'm quick to point out those who model the opposite. The world is our classroom, in this regard. We talk about real-life examples as we see them -- some days we see lots of examples we wish to emulate, and some days we see lots of examples of those who are socially-challenged. We discuss them all.

 

I have friends who follow TCS and similar philosophies. I think the ideology is great on paper, but gosh - even communism looked great in print. In practice, the human element is such an important variable that it cannot be dismissed.

 

I have no idea who this lady is, but every one of my siblings has a science-based PhD. That in and of itself doesn't lend as much weight to this argument (for me), as does the input of someone who has been in the trenches for a fair amount of time to have seen a few things. I found the input from selected posters to be valuable, and I think that between one person's academic background and another's anecdotal experiences ... the rest of us can mesh together a web of advice and input directly relevant to our own kids/lives/parenting philosophies/et cetera.

 

I really think it's more about the kid than the parenting style. I happened to luck into malleable kids who didn't need any real force to toe the family/cultural line as far as manners and social acceptablility go.

[Joker]

I don't remember ever having to force our dds to use good manners. They just picked it up from watching dh and I. I still remember the day older dd was 18 months old and walking down a narrow hallway. She had to step around a man, and as she did she said "scuse me." I realized she picked up everything we did and I don't remember ever feeling a need to tell her or her sister to say please or thank you. There pretty compliant kiddos though so maybe we just got lucky.:tongue_smilie:

[Butter]

My brother and his wife, who do NOT practice AP, never prompted their kids to say please and thank you. Ever. They are 4, 6, 10, and 12 and extremely well-mannered. They just picked it up by watching their parents. On the other hand, I have friends who are AP to the extreme and they never prompted their kids (9 and 14) to say please and thank you and their kids are pretty much brats.

[ktgrok]

From what I've read, it's part and parcel of the "attachment parenting" philosophy, but one which many who casually call themselves AP don't ascribe to. I've heard that Dr. Sears also did this.

 

I'm pretty much a poster child for AP, and have a large group of AP friends, and have never heard of this.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

The people I've known who never seemed to teach their kids the basics of social conduct under the guise of respecting their rights were neither AP nor homeschoolers. I had cousins like this and they were awful, but they all went to PS all the way through. We had neighbors who did the same and they were also non-AP (the mother thought breastfeeding was "gross") and also used public schools. Their children were insufferable.

 

I don't think it's a matter of not forcing things that is the problem, though. I think it's the general attitude of the parents that their children are above others and the rules don't necessarily apply to them. I doubt Mayim Bialik is going about things in that way and I'm fairly certain that her children are lovely to be around.

[QuirkyKapers]

Ah.. I find that as a double edged sword. Not saying them, as you say, makes you a jerk. People think you are ungrateful and insincere. Having to say them, however, means you learn to play a game with people. You understand that people who say those things are as insincere as you are, so therefore you never trust the words anyway. Those types of manners are a social convention, like saying 'Bless you' when someone sneezes even if you don't know that person.

 

 

:iagree: Alfie Kohn talked about manners in one of his books. He has his kids practice them in public, because it is expected and frowned upon if you don't follow convention. At home, he doesn't care.

[happyvegan]

Yeah, I've heard/seen that kind of stuff before. She didn't come up with anything new.

 

Children do not come out of the womb knowing how to behave in a socially acceptable way. They must be instructed, preferably by parents who love them and who gently correct as well as consistently instruct, and who also model the behaviors they want their dc to have (although modeling isn't enough; there must also be instruction, and sometimes, correction).

 

Note to self: stay away from Mayim's dc. :blink:

 

Unfair. Maybe her children don't need instruction. Mine didn't, and they are practically saints when in any social situation (I'm not exaggerating even a little bit). Although they probably behave more like "standard issue" children when at home, which is the way I like it. ;)

 

There is no "must" when it comes to ways to raise one's children. The idea that there's a recipe for good manners is ridiculous. Different children learn in different ways, and social mores are no exception.

[mom2abcd]

Children do not come out of the womb knowing how to behave in a socially acceptable way. They must be instructed, preferably by parents who love them and who gently correct as well as consistently instruct, and who also model the behaviors they want their dc to have (although modeling isn't enough; there must also be instruction, and sometimes, correction).

 

 

:iagree:

 

I taught preschool twenty-some years ago and I sub with preschoolers now. I am continually surprised that most of today's 3-5 year olds do not say "please" and "thank you." Even with the common prompt, "What do you say?" they look at me blankly. For some of them, they appear never to have heard the words before.

 

Many things in life won't be "caught" and must be "taught." IMHO, "please" and "thank you" are basic manners that are very important.

[fraidycat]

:iagree:

Just because she hasn't TOLD them to say certain things doesn't mean they don't. I sure as heck never told MY kids to yell at lousy drivers, but they picked that up just fine! :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: Mine, too.

[fraidycat]

:iagree:

 

I taught preschool twenty-some years ago and I sub with preschoolers now. I am continually surprised that most of today's 3-5 year olds do not say "please" and "thank you." Even with the common prompt, "What do you say?" they look at me blankly. For some of them, they appear never to have heard the words before.

 

Many things in life won't be "caught" and must be "taught." IMHO, "please" and "thank you" are basic manners that are very important.

 

I guess I "forced my will" on my children when it comes to Please and Thank you. I would say that these were probably part of their first 20 vocabulary words. I have, and they have, been complimented on their manners more than once and they are ingrained now, for the most part.

 

However, one day I went in to have lunch with DS and sit at the kindergarten table with him. The children get their food at the cafeteria, but a dining room server takes large bottles of condiments to the table to squirt on each individual tray. When DS got his ketchup from the server I waited a bit, then prompted with "Pardon me?!" which is my standard phrase when the kids have forgotten to use their manners. I almost fell right off my seat when he replied "Oh, don't worry Mom, we don't say Thank You here." :confused: Needless to say, I was dumbstruck for a moment.

 

"UHHHHHHHH, yes, yes, YOU DO say Thank You here. YOU say Thank You everywhere."

 

Luckily, it was only about a week before Christmas break, which is when we were pulling them out of ps to homeschool anyway.

[WishboneDawn]

Really? :confused: I know many people, myself included, who have exceptionally polite children and who approached the issue in the same / similar way as MB. My kids are almost daily complimented in public on how polite they are! :001_smile:

 

There was a somewhat awkward (for me) stage when they were little and I simply said "Thank you" on their behalf.

 

Do you think that a 2 or 3 year old who says "thank you" because he is constantly prompted has any understanding of manners? Most don't.

 

:iagree: I'm not sure why her statement somehow means she doesn't address manners at all or that her children are rude little beasts. Not forcing your children to say please and thank you is one tiny little piece of the whole manners puzzle and it's bizarre to assume she doesn't have other strategies to address manners.

[Joanne]

The quoted description sounds like something I'd write. Indeed, it sounds like what I've written message boards and my site for years. ;) I'm not familiar with the actress.

 

I AM familiar with TCS and I don't get a non-coercive, mutuality vibe from the quote. I also don't assume she is permissive. I have parented for 17 years in the same way, and I am careful not to read *into* the quote.

 

I think please and thank you and sorry - authentic ones - come with maturity and impulse control. They come with time, and exposure, and modeling. You CAN "force" them at earlier ages, but they aren't authentic apologies.

 

I think it's like many, many other things: children grow up reasonably well if they aren't parented in extremes. They do so if we spank them, if we don't, if we force a "thank you", if we don't, if we use time-out, if we don't.

 

The best and nearly fool-proof method of teaching little kids to stop or start specific behaviors is time. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

The quoted description sounds like something I'd write. Indeed, it sounds like what I've written message boards and my site for years. ;) I'm not familiar with the actress.

 

I AM familiar with TCS and I don't get a non-coercive, mutuality vibe from the quote. I also don't assume she is permissive. I have parented for 17 years in the same way, and I am careful not to read *into* the quote.

 

Just for the sake of clarity, I was responding more to the OP's question than I was to the quote. I did have some sort of caveat about that in my first post. I think several people since have assumed MB is subscribing to the TCS philosophy, but that wasn't my intent.

[Joanne]

Just for the sake of clarity, I was responding more to the OP's question than I was to the quote. I did have some sort of caveat about that in my first post. I think several people since have assumed MB is subscribing to the TCS philosophy, but that wasn't my intent.

 

I know. That's why I didn't quote you.

 

On a related note, today at lunch at my teaching job, my youngest son automatically got a chair for a teacher (a female, pregnant one). A conversation ensued about how my boys (nearly 17 and 13) are courteous in terms of helping others, especially women, with groceries, chairs, doors, etc. I modeled stuff when they were super young, and when they were older and could "get it", I began to expect them to be courteous as boys-growing-into-men.

[livingmydream]

No, it isn't held by most AP parents. I have been around children being raised with TCS. My experiences with them have not been pleasant. :glare::001_huh:

 

I have to agree on this one!

But I also understand the feeling it from the heart and not robotic. My one year old says thank you to us anytime we hand her something. And she just learned it from watching the other kids. It's quite precious.

[Mommy22alyns]

didn't read all posts but I know my son has picked up manners from us. We always have said please and thank you when dealing with him since an infant so it comes naturally for him, usually.

 

 

 

there are times, when dealing with other people, that I will prompt him to say thank you and please. As a small child I know he will not always remember, but I do want him to know that when someone gives him something, - whether it be a toy, a candy, or a compliment, he needs to say thank you every time. I certainly don't do it in an ugly way, just a gentle reminder. He's never resisted and he doesn't seem damaged by it either.

 

 

:iagree:

[StaceyinLA]

MAKE my children say ma'am and sir (to me). I think they know it's expected toward others, but I feel like if they are polite in responding, ma'am or sir doesn't really add to that. I also remember a lot of grudgingly spoken "yes sirs" in my life, and don't find that it helped me a whole lot with respect issues.

[JennifersLost]

After living in California for years where attachment parenting runs rampant, I can say that the beauty of the system is that parents can choose whether or not to parent.....but if they fail to parent, society eventually will take over their job.

 

My kids grew up around lots of attachment-parented kids and I've watched what happened to them:

 

The kids that never learned to take turns, share or say please and thank you got left out, left home, not invited, etc, and occasionally smacked a good one by the kids who got sick of their cr*p.

 

As they grew up, they got expelled from school, dropped from extra-curricular programs, avoided at parties and functions and talked about behind their backs.

 

As older teenagers they got booted from their own homes when they brought home drugs, or began to terrify their behavior with their abusive parents.

 

Some of them got in trouble with the law.

 

Looking back, I've been so grateful we left the state before my kids reached their teen years and moved to a more traditional area. I continue to have wonderful relationships with the parents we left behind, but I don't want my kids anywhere near those kids. The drama, the rages, the fights, the slamming doors, the drugs and alcohol....not into it and I have no idea where those parents get the patience.

 

I know, I know....kids from the most rigid homes can go astray, too, and everyone can parent how they choose. I'd just rather my kids heard "no" a few times from me and learned the social niceties at home before the rest of the world takes over their education in manners.

[swellmomma]

MAKE my children say ma'am and sir (to me). I think they know it's expected toward others, but I feel like if they are polite in responding, ma'am or sir doesn't really add to that. I also remember a lot of grudgingly spoken "yes sirs" in my life, and don't find that it helped me a whole lot with respect issues.

 

I don't do the sir or ma'am bit here at all, it would seem very strange for them to say it, unless you are in a customer service type job, or police/military it would seem out of place in our society here

[Joanne]

After living in California for years where attachment parenting runs rampant, I can say that the beauty of the system is that parents can choose whether or not to parent.....but if they fail to parent, society eventually will take over their job.

 

My kids grew up around lots of attachment-parented kids and I've watched what happened to them:

 

The kids that never learned to take turns, share or say please and thank you got left out, left home, not invited, etc, and occasionally smacked a good one by the kids who got sick of their cr*p.

 

As they grew up, they got expelled from school, dropped from extra-curricular programs, avoided at parties and functions and talked about behind their backs.

 

As older teenagers they got booted from their own homes when they brought home drugs, or began to terrify their behavior with their abusive parents.

 

Some of them got in trouble with the law.

 

Looking back, I've been so grateful we left the state before my kids reached their teen years and moved to a more traditional area. I continue to have wonderful relationships with the parents we left behind, but I don't want my kids anywhere near those kids. The drama, the rages, the fights, the slamming doors, the drugs and alcohol....not into it and I have no idea where those parents get the patience.

 

I know, I know....kids from the most rigid homes can go astray, too, and everyone can parent how they choose. I'd just rather my kids heard "no" a few times from me and learned the social niceties at home before the rest of the world takes over their education in manners.

 

This is not attachment parenting.

 

You are arguing against *permissiveness*. I once had an epic blog post about having seen that there IS a higher percentage of permissiveness in AP - but what you describe above is not ap. It's not gentle discipline, either. It's not discipline at all.

 

Edited to add: The blog post still exists.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Joanne

[happypamama]

I don't do the sir or ma'am thing with my children either.

 

I don't feel that I *force* manners upon my children, but I do remind them to say please, thank you, and excuse me when appropriate. I absolutely do model those things, and I really do think that matters the most, but at the same time, I remind them to close the outside door, to put their shoes away, to do their schoolwork, etc. I don't consider that to be forcing; I consider it to be helping them learn routines and social graces. If someone does something nice for them, and they don't say thank you on their own (which they do, most of the time), I will say something like, "ahem?" or "what do you say?" or, my favorite, "how do you show your appreciation?"

 

As for making children apologize, I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, I don't care for any sort of forced or false apology; if my child is really not sorry, I'd rather him/her not apologize. On the other hand, I have a friend who said that she was never made to apologize, so as an adult, even when she's genuinely sorry, she finds it hard to say the words. Usually when I can tell that my child is sorry about something, I suggest an apology if one is not given freely; some kids just need someone else to be alongside them when they apologize. Also, in my house, "I'm sorry" is insufficient; it's too easy to toss that out without meaning it. A sufficient apology in my house is, "I'm sorry for doing X; will you please forgive me?" I've seen this clear the air and smooth hurt feelings multiple times between my children; they move on and bear no grudges.

[NatashainDFW]

The one thing I force is sir and ma'am but were we are from it is still considered a societal norm for polite people to do so. We do not accept yea, yes, uh huh, un uh, no or nope for answers either. I expect my children to respond to a question politely but I also respond to them and others in the same way. Both children know that the answer to any yes or no question should include at least a two or three word response. We modeled please and thank you with both kids and rarely remind them but we did teach sir and ma'am as soon as they could talk. While I may not live in a small town in Texas anymore I want my children to be able to relocate back to our small town and not be considered rude when in public.

 

I would also never live it down if my children told my grandfather or great grandmother yeah. They would both have a conniption fit because they taught their kids and they know I was taught that it is disrespectful. We also are stopped on a regular basis and told how polite and well behaved our children are. Any time there is an issue with politeness we try very hard to use it as a gentle teaching opportunity and most times DS is mortified that he was impolite and will apologize to us or whoever he was impolite to on his own accord.

[AvasMom]

After living in California for years where attachment parenting runs rampant, I can say that the beauty of the system is that parents can choose whether or not to parent.....but if they fail to parent, society eventually will take over their job.

 

My kids grew up around lots of attachment-parented kids and I've watched what happened to them:

 

The kids that never learned to take turns, share or say please and thank you got left out, left home, not invited, etc, and occasionally smacked a good one by the kids who got sick of their cr*p.

 

As they grew up, they got expelled from school, dropped from extra-curricular programs, avoided at parties and functions and talked about behind their backs.

 

As older teenagers they got booted from their own homes when they brought home drugs, or began to terrify their behavior with their abusive parents.

 

Some of them got in trouble with the law.

 

Looking back, I've been so grateful we left the state before my kids reached their teen years and moved to a more traditional area. I continue to have wonderful relationships with the parents we left behind, but I don't want my kids anywhere near those kids. The drama, the rages, the fights, the slamming doors, the drugs and alcohol....not into it and I have no idea where those parents get the patience.

 

I know, I know....kids from the most rigid homes can go astray, too, and everyone can parent how they choose. I'd just rather my kids heard "no" a few times from me and learned the social niceties at home before the rest of the world takes over their education in manners.

 

Let's not confuse TCS with AP. We are an AP family and Dr. Bill was my dd's ped. I know him and know his family and the kids you describe are NOT typical of attached kids. In fact, the kids you describe clearly have a lack of connection, the anti-thesis of AP.

Edited March 9, 2012 by tjlufkin
typo

[NicAnn]

Let's not confuse TCS with AP. We are an AP family and Dr. Bill was my dd's ped. I know him and know his family and the kids you describe are NOT typical of attached kids. Infact, the kids you describe clearly have a lack of connection, the anti-thesis of AP.

 

:iagree:

 

One of the main goals of AP is to raise secure happy kids, who can function around adults and in an adult driven society.

 

Attachment Parenting International firmly believes in discipline for children. It's the punishment or shaming aspect of it we don't agree with.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is not attachment parenting.

 

You are arguing against *permissiveness*. I once had an epic blog post about having seen that there IS a higher percentage of permissiveness in AP - but what you describe above is not ap. It's not gentle discipline, either. It's not discipline at all.

 

 

 

I agree. AP takes more effort than traditional discipline because it's actually teaching them what TO do instead of using aversion therapy. In my experience, many permissive parents use AP as an excuse to not discipline kids at all. If you aren't going to tell the kids "no," for example, you replace that with getting off your butt and redirecting. Permissive parents don't do that and call themselves AP. They aren't.

[5kidsforME]

Well, I'm an AP parent and have been a AP leader for about 5 years ow, so maybe I can offer an opinion. Hope I can come through online.

 

AP incorporates a variety of styles, and most parents I've encountered DO "force" manners on the kids. (I don't think force is the word that should be used though.) We however, don't. It sounds bad, but in practice it really works for us. We also don't force apologizes.

 

For us, it starts with a lot of modeling in the beginning. Even when Dd was a newborn, we would pretend to talk to her with lots of please and thank yous. "Oh, you like this shirt? Thank you so much", etc. Now she mostly says it all the time. But for certain things, I preempt it. I tell her, "If you are going to get a balloon at the store today, please ask the man politely for one".

 

I don't like to point it out in front of people, because really if it's not sincere then what does it matter. I also think that a lot of times the kids are excited or scared or whatever, and they won't even remember in the moment that this is a time for politeness.

 

It's sounds manipulative. I mean are you truly sincere when you say, "Oh, you like this shirt? Thank you so much"? It's just a different way to "enforce your will." IMO.

[Wabi Sabi]

The one thing I force is sir and ma'am but were we are from it is still considered a societal norm for polite people to do so. We do not accept yea, yes, uh huh, un uh, no or nope for answers either. I expect my children to respond to a question politely but I also respond to them and others in the same way. Both children know that the answer to any yes or no question should include at least a two or three word response. We modeled please and thank you with both kids and rarely remind them but we did teach sir and ma'am as soon as they could talk. While I may not live in a small town in Texas anymore I want my children to be able to relocate back to our small town and not be considered rude when in public.

 

I would also never live it down if my children told my grandfather or great grandmother yeah. They would both have a conniption fit because they taught their kids and they know I was taught that it is disrespectful. We also are stopped on a regular basis and told how polite and well behaved our children are. Any time there is an issue with politeness we try very hard to use it as a gentle teaching opportunity and most times DS is mortified that he was impolite and will apologize to us or whoever he was impolite to on his own accord.

 

Really? I just don't get it. Chalk it up to me not being a southerner, I guess. ;)

 

Let's say you ask your child to please help his younger sibling with something because your hands are full. Do you mean to say that an answer of "Yep, no problem" would not be acceptable?

 

Also, what is disrespectful about saying "yeah?" Doesn't it just depend on the question being asked and the particular situation? "Grandson, how was your trip to Disney World? Did you have fun?" "Yeah, it was great!"

 

School me! Is a certain level of formality expected within your home even between close family members? Is a casual yet still polite response to an adult something you see as an oxymoron?

 

(FWIW, my own dc have never once been taught those kind of rules and yet we still get frequent compliments from strangers about how polite they are to others in public. :))

[Haiku]

we do not force manners on our children (“Say thank you!†and “Say please!†have never escaped my lips).

 

That right there highlights the crux of the problem and my central, unresolvable problem with TCS ... their definition of what constitutes force and mine will never intersect.

 

I have been around children being raised with TCS. My experiences with them have not been pleasant.

 

And how. I always want to tell those people, "That's great that your little darlings are 'free to be' and all that, but when being free means that instead of telling your kid flat-out to stop kicking my kid or throwing sand at him you try to negotiate with him, well, DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR KID!"

 

And yes, I know TCSers don't use the words "negotiate" or "compromise," but ime, it's semantics and in practice leads to giving in to children because they are children, the poor dears.

 

Tara

[Virg]

:iagree:

 

I taught preschool twenty-some years ago and I sub with preschoolers now. I am continually surprised that most of today's 3-5 year olds do not say "please" and "thank you." Even with the common prompt, "What do you say?" they look at me blankly. For some of them, they appear never to have heard the words before.

 

Many things in life won't be "caught" and must be "taught." IMHO, "please" and "thank you" are basic manners that are very important.

 

:iagree: I have been a preschool/daycare provider for the last fifteen years. Most children I encounter do NOT use any manners. I find that in my daycare when I enforce respect and manners children naturally start being kinder to each other and to me. The second their parents walk in it is a whole different story. I also think there is a difference when your children are home with a parent/nanny or at one carefully chosen daycare rather than multiple daycares between birth and school. In these situations what is modeled will not be consistent day to day throughout their early life.

 

I may be in the minority here but my kids were taught to say please, thank you, etc. They also say yes ma'am and no sir to us and to other adults. I always think it is funny when people assume we are "cold" with out children because we are so "formal". My boys slept in my bed until they were 7 and constantly crawl into my lap for hugs. We are a VERY affectionate family. It just depends on what atmosphere your home has, I guess.

Edited March 9, 2012 by ds4159

[Mrs Mungo]

And how. I always want to tell those people, "That's great that your little darlings are 'free to be' and all that, but when being free means that instead of telling your kid flat-out to stop kicking my kid or throwing sand at him you try to negotiate with him, well, DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR KID!"

 

But, this is the difference between AP and TCS. The first act of an AP parent would be to remove their child from the situation. Not saying you are conflating the two, but some people clearly are.

[*********]

On a related note, today at lunch at my teaching job, my youngest son automatically got a chair for a teacher (a female, pregnant one). A conversation ensued about how my boys (nearly 17 and 13) are courteous in terms of helping others, especially women, with groceries, chairs, doors, etc. I modeled stuff when they were super young, and when they were older and could "get it", I began to expect them to be courteous as boys-growing-into-men.

 

Joanne, this example here is *exactly* the sort of man/child I want my boys to grow to be. We might use different methods to get there, but we do desire the same end results. And I do believe that different 'parenting styles' can work with different children to get the same good results.

 

I think it's just fantastic that your son did that for the teacher. That just makes me smile. :001_smile: Thank you for sharing.

[AvasMom]

It's sounds manipulative. I mean are you truly sincere when you say, "Oh, you like this shirt? Thank you so much"? It's just a different way to "enforce your will." IMO.

 

Um, what's your point? :confused:

[5kidsforME]

Um, what's your point? :confused:

 

That instead of asking/telling your kids to say please, thank you, you are trying to manipulate them into doing it.

 

What don't you understand? :confused:

[Bang!Zoom!]

I know nothing about this idea of "Attachment Parenting" - sounds like it's a movement of some kind, books...groups or something.

 

As far as this concept was taught in our home growing up, this "please/thank you" deal was a big deal. They were taught in direct line with respect and the previous generations culture.

 

The other thing that comes to mind, is when moving into another culture there are places where not being aware of the social ping-pong of showing gratitude though specific words can cause some uncomfortable moments or misunderstandings. So, with that, it's culturally sensitive sometimes and worth noticing.

 

A book I've been reading with my daughter is, "The Gift of Thanks" - and the text within is fairly academic in one sense and historical, and very interesting.

 

The focus is the routine and rituals in a worldwide context. When we travel to the Pacific for example, it takes a little faux paus moments to realize that there is something different out there - so again, I think it's a matter of local culture combined with family culture. It's good to be awake to different ways of doing things.

 

If it's working for her family, and she wants to write about it, it only adds to the knowledge of all cultures and families. Good for her.

[AvasMom]

That right there highlights the crux of the problem and my central, unresolvable problem with TCS ... their definition of what constitutes force and mine will never intersect.

 

 

 

And how. I always want to tell those people, "That's great that your little darlings are 'free to be' and all that, but when being free means that instead of telling your kid flat-out to stop kicking my kid or throwing sand at him you try to negotiate with him, well, DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR KID!"

 

And yes, I know TCSers don't use the words "negotiate" or "compromise," but ime, it's semantics and in practice leads to giving in to children because they are children, the poor dears.

 

Tara

 

One of my experiences included a 3 yr old who smacked her infant brother in the head. The mother proceeded to talk to her about how that might make her brother feel. Howz about just telling her it hurts him and that she needs to STOP it. :glare: Short, sweet, and to the point. There is just a LOT of rattling on with the TCS parents I knew. Really, the kid lost interest in the logic of why they should or shouldn't do such and such about 20 minutes ago and the mom is still "blah blah blah" about how the 2 year old is feeling about the situation. Good grief. Just stop yammering on and tell them to stop it or give them a toy or something and give us all a break.

[Mrs Mungo]

That instead of asking/telling your kids to say please, thank you, you are trying to manipulate them into doing it.

 

What don't you understand? :confused:

 

Your post wasn't very clear. I couldn't even figure out how to address it.

 

I disagree that modelling is manipulation. Every action that you take is modelling behavior to your kids, whether you intend it or not.

[AvasMom]

That instead of asking/telling your kids to say please, thank you, you are trying to manipulate them into doing it.

 

What don't you understand? :confused:

 

Don't we all manipulate to a degree in that case? Following that logic, teaching is manipulating a child. Are you saying that is a negative thing or are you simply trying to draw a correlation between TCS and AP that does not exist?

 

Also, asking and telling are two different things.