Do feel that a pastor/minister/church leader should have a M.Div degree?

[Tap]

My son is planning to become a pastor. I am asking him to consider one more year before attending bible college for reasons that don't matter here, so I will skip them. After this year, he plans to attend Multnomah Bible College. It is a very well regarded private, local college. Tuition....20,000 per year. :001_huh: He will get a scholarship and that will drop to around 15-17,000. He will be there 5-6 years to get his M.Div degree. That means he will have $75,000-100,000 in loans when he is done.

 

At our church, the main pastor has 2 Masters. A few associates do not have degrees in divinity or theology, but at least one has a psychology/counseling degree from a public college. I have heard that the M.Div degree is not necessarily required anymore, and I wonder what people think about that? I can't imagine how pastors are paying off these loans? It isn't like many of them make much money per hour.

 

I know ds will continue on, and will get a M. Div degree. The quality of education is incredible at MU. DS needs time to mature and he loves learning and studying the Bible, I think the program will give him a chance for both. BUT $75,000!

 

PS>>>I am not looking for a way 'out' of the degree for him. I am just curious what others think about the topic.

[*********]

No. I don't think one needs a degree to teach the word of God.

[Cassy]

The last pastor at our local church was a seriously intellectual type of pastor with all kinds of degrees and, according to DH (I don't go to Church), a 'brain the size of a planet'. His sermons were amazing (I did hear some), far better than those of a visiting bishop. However, he was not a leader, he was a thinker, and at our Church it eventually caused problems for all concerned. He has recently moved on to become head of a prestigious college of divinity, which is far more suited to his personality and interests.

 

Cassy

[ktgrok]

I would suggest a public college for his bachelors, then a seminary/bible college for his masters. much more affordable I would think. That is what the church leaders I have known have done. Taking on that amount of debt isn't good stewardship. HOwever, I do strongly strongly strongly feel that a masters in divinity is to be looked for, or at least a bachelors, but preferably a masters. There is no way to truly have a grasp on Biblical history, languages, etc without a degree. Places that have spiritual leaders without a degree mystify me.

[mamajudy]

No. I don't think one needs a degree to teach the word of God.

 

:iagree:

[Melinda in VT]

I grew up in a church that had only lay leaders in local congregations, and I personally value having a trained and educated pastor. In my experience, the difference is immense.

 

That said, the professional pastors I have known all came to the pastoring after a time (sometimes lengthy) in another profession. I think that kind of maturity and life experience is very valuable as well. And it also allows you to save up money for the divinity degree.

[Ellie]

Are you a member of a specific denomination? (as opposed to non-denom). If so, has he talked to TPTB about is required to be a pastor?

[AuntieM]

Well, the New Testament model for pastoral training is direct mentorship. To me that implies something that involves a personal relationship of tutelage and wisdom-sharing. I wonder if that type of relationship is (for all students) developed in a large classroom setting. I have met some well-shepherded, non-degreed "lay" pastors that I would trust to a very high degree. These are typically people who are intelligent and driven to serve the Lord, often after years of unbelief or a full secular career.

 

On the other hand, I have met seminary graduates who did not own a Greek dictionary and displayed immaturity to the point of fracturing a congregation.

 

I think that the degree is less about what the student himself needs to be a mature, wise and knowledgable teacher and more about giving him credentials to actually be able to get a job in his field. I think much depends upon the requirements and traditions of the person's particular denomination.

 

I would also go so far as to say that studies may be important based on the branch of ministry selected. Administrative pastor? Business and organizational dynamics classes. Education pastor? Education administration. Counseling pastor? Advanced counseling studies. A role-juggling small congregation pastor? Some of each and a bank of wise elders.

 

As far as preaching the true Gospel, I believe that's a work of the Holy Spirit and He enables its success, no matter the delivery system. But with all the other things a pastor is called upon to do, extra training couldn't hurt. I am personally just not convinced a seminary or Bible college is the end all-be all for preparation. I am acquainted with half a dozen un/underemployed Bible college graduates which stand as examples of my opinion.

 

I voted other in your poll.

[T'smom]

I do think that an M.Div is needed- however a bachelors from a bible college is not. My dad got a bachelors in math at a public university before going to seminary.

[Julie in CA]

I would suggest a public college for his bachelors, then a seminary/bible college for his masters. much more affordable I would think. That is what the church leaders I have known have done. Taking on that amount of debt isn't good stewardship. HOwever, I do strongly strongly strongly feel that a masters in divinity is to be looked for, or at least a bachelors, but preferably a masters. There is no way to truly have a grasp on Biblical history, languages, etc without a degree. Places that have spiritual leaders without a degree mystify me.

:iagree: (Completely)

[FO4UR]

There are a few separate issues here.

 

#1 - Pastors cannot pay off $100,000 in student loans. Don't do it!!!

 

#2 - MDIV's can be earned without $100,000 in student loans. (My dh earned his MDIV without racking up $1 in debt b/c he worked at a job with tuition reimbursement. Plus the school deeply discounts for people who remain in churches of that denomination during their education. He has debt from his undergrad, but not the MVID. Certainly NOT $100,000!:001_huh:)

 

 

#3 - There is a huge percentage of MDIV people who cannot find FT pastorates. Finding a FT pastorate without the MDIV is going to be difficult. Bivocational ministry is an option if he doesn't get the MDIV.

 

#4 - In order to be a great pastor, he really needs the Greek/Hebrew. He really needs the classes on writing sermons, counseling, church organization, etc... He needs to set his ideas up against people who disagree and have academic arguments he must answer.

 

 

#5 - If it were my child, I'd encourage him to intern with a pastor for a while. Working as an associate pastor or youth pastor through school would be a great idea. (There are things that seminary doesn't cover!)

 

 

#6 - Pastoring is not a very stable job in many ways. He needs to have skills to fall back on should he need to get a secular job to provide for his family between ministry positions.

 

 

 

I am married to a pastor, and before I married him I served on a Pastor Search Committee. I will tell you, honestly, that there are two piles for resumes ime. Those with MDIV or higher. Those without.

[Jean in Newcastle]

There are a few separate issues here.

 

#1 - Pastors cannot pay off $100,000 in student loans. Don't do it!!!

 

#2 - MDIV's can be earned without $100,000 in student loans. (My dh earned his MDIV without racking up $1 in debt b/c he worked at a job with tuition reimbursement. Plus the school deeply discounts for people who remain in churches of that denomination during their education. He has debt from his undergrad, but not the MVID. Certainly NOT $100,000!:001_huh:)

 

 

#3 - There is a huge percentage of MDIV people who cannot find FT pastorates. Finding a FT pastorate without the MDIV is going to be difficult. Bivocational ministry is an option if he doesn't get the MDIV.

 

#4 - In order to be a great pastor, he really needs the Greek/Hebrew. He really needs the classes on writing sermons, counseling, church organization, etc... He needs to set his ideas up against people who disagree and have academic arguments he must answer.

 

 

#5 - If it were my child, I'd encourage him to intern with a pastor for a while. Working as an associate pastor or youth pastor through school would be a great idea. (There are things that seminary doesn't cover!)

 

 

#6 - Pastoring is not a very stable job in many ways. He needs to have skills to fall back on should he need to get a secular job to provide for his family between ministry positions.

 

 

 

I am married to a pastor, and before I married him I served on a Pastor Search Committee. I will tell you, honestly, that there are two piles for resumes ime. Those with MDIV or higher. Those without.

 

:iagree:

[gardening momma]

At our church, the main pastor has 2 Masters. A few associates do not have degrees in divinity or theology, but at least one has a psychology/counseling degree from a public college. I have heard that the M.Div degree is not necessarily required anymore, and I wonder what people think about that? I can't imagine how pastors are paying off these loans? It isn't like many of them make much money per hour.

 

I didn't know pastors got a masters degree in anything until recently. My dad is a pastor and does not have a M.Div. degree (unless it's something he worked on recently through distance learning, but now he's looking toward retirement, so if he doesn't already have it he's not going to now).

[Catwoman]

I don't really have an opinion about the degrees, but when I read your post, my main concern is whether or not he will make enough money in his chosen field to be able to comfortably pay off that debt.

 

If not, I would strongly suggest that he is absolutely sure that the ministry is the career for him, because you need a lot of dedication to be able to live very modestly and pay off large debts, because owing a lot of money and not seeing a strong income in your future can be very discouraging for anyone. Sure, he doesn't realize it now, but once he's married and has a few kids (and a lot of expenses,) the school debt may be quite overwhelming.

 

Please don't think I'm being snarky or that I'm discouraging his calling to the ministry. I'm just telling you what I would tell my own ds in the same situation, if he were to consider a potentially low-paying career. I think it's wonderful that he already knows what he wants to do with his life.

 

Has your ds ever considered being a theology professor, or working toward teaching in a M.Div. program? If so, perhaps he could get his Bachelor's degree and then try for a teaching fellowship in a good Master's program. (I don't know what to suggest as a Bachelor's degree for him, because I know nothing about M.Div. program requirements, but I would strongly suggest that he investigate the M.Div. programs now, and see what they advise in terms of what would be the most advantageous Bachelor's programs.)

 

Again, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket. I'm just thinking of how I would feel if my ds was going to have that level of debt, coupled with a career that might not pay too well.

[Pretty in Pink]

I will not sit under a pastor who does not have an M.Div. I am okay with an associate pastor who has any bachelor's degree and is working towards his/her M.Div.

 

One need not take on 100,000 in debt to obtain their master's degree, though. I will agree with others that have suggested he consider other avenues that will enable him to earn his M.Div.

 

Best of luck!

[Whereneverever]

Honestly, the biggest deal is what is normal in your specific denomination. My DH is a pastor and in our church, having an M Div is usually the bottom of what a pastor would have.

[MamaSheep]

I voted other. In our church, leadership positions are unpaid, leaders are selected from among the members of the congregation, and it's a temporary position lasting only a few years before being handed over to someone else. However, most members take seminary courses in high school and in college, and nearly all adult members expect to continue taking Sunday School classes through the church for their whole lives. Individual scripture study is strongly encouraged, and members are also encouraged to seek additional understanding by reading scholarly books and articles. Some of the most knowledgable and insightful teachers and leaders I've had were widely read but had no formal religious education credentials. Among those serving in higher levels of church leadership there's a wide diversity of educational and work experience (medicine, law, education, communication, etc.), and I think the differing perspectives, when combined, bring a lot of strengths to the leadership as a group that would be missing if they all had the same degree in the same major, and the same basic work experience for their whole lives. So I don't think of formal educational achievement, or a religious educational focus as necessarily a requirement for a leadership position in our church. Certainly neither was a requirement for church leadership in the early apostolic church.

 

That said, though, I think most churches that hire pastors as a paid professional position would be looking for someone with a degree, and the higher the better. Partly, I think, this has to do with our society's acceptance of degrees of advanced education as a standard measurement of accomplishment. I would think it would be easier to get a job as a pastor/minister/church leader with a M.Div. degree.

Edited March 3, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Bluegoat]

In my denomination, a candidate for the priesthood typically has a bachelor's degree of some kind, and if they are accepted by the diocese get full funding for the local divinity school for an MDiv - it may be shorter i the person already has some background in some areas covered. Some may choose to fund themselves and go elsewhere, and some get more education - our priest is working on his doctorate at the moment, for example. I would be hesitant to accept a pastor who did not have some further education of that type - there does need to be some real basis for him to teach and have authority, and education is part of that.

 

Of course it is possible to be self-educated - but I suppose the question becomes then, how do we discern i the person looking to take that kind of position is in fact educated. So while it could happen, I think it would be unusual.

 

So I would normally expect that a pastor should have some kind o training in divinity, and possibly in another area as well depending on what type of ministry he was looking to be involved in.

[kalanamak]

There are a few separate issues here.

 

#1 - Pastors cannot pay off $100,000 in student loans. Don't do it!!!

 

#3 - There is a huge percentage of MDIV people who cannot find FT pastorates. Finding a FT pastorate without the MDIV is going to be difficult. Bivocational ministry is an option if he doesn't get the MDIV.

 

 

#6 - Pastoring is not a very stable job in many ways. He needs to have skills to fall back on should he need to get a secular job to provide for his family between ministry positions.

 

I know some social workers and psychologists who are pastors. They feel the two careers work well together.

 

If your son would rather listen to others about this, I'm sure he could find plenty of pastors who would be frank with him. Encourage he do his footwork before following his "dream". You could also crunch some numbers on typical salary, interest rates, time to pay off loan, and needs of a young family. I sure didn't have an clue about that stuff when I was young (but did have the sense to not go into debt for undergrad ... out of my old fashioned, somewhat irrational fear of debt.)

[Virg]

I don't think it is necessary for someone called by God but I think it is very helpful. I also think that in the course of being a pastor, whether or not you have a degree to begin with, you should constantly be educating yourself.

[Elizabeth in MN]

This is an issue I feel very strongly about. I believe that all ministers need to have an M Div to be able to speak intelligently to the issues that can come up in a community of Christians. They will have to know how to handle very delicate conflict resolution issues, how to counsel people in crisis, how to get bids on a new roof for the church and tax law as it applies to their congregation.

 

And that's all on just a typical Monday!

 

My parents are both ministers in the Episcopal church. I'm LDS. I see my LDS ministers flounder in their callings because they have no training. My own parents were better prepared to deal with the challenges G-d threw at them because of their M Divs.

[Tap]

There are a few separate issues here.

 

#1 - Pastors cannot pay off $100,000 in student loans. Don't do it!!! :iagree: But at some point this has to be his decision. I can only talk so much!

 

#2 - MDIV's can be earned without $100,000 in student loans. (My dh earned his MDIV without racking up $1 in debt b/c he worked at a job with tuition reimbursement. Plus the school deeply discounts for people who remain in churches of that denomination during their education. He has debt from his undergrad, but not the MVID. Certainly NOT $100,000!:001_huh:)

 

 

#1 and #2: I wholeheartedly agree. This is the main reason I am encouraging him to wait a year. I think part of the issue here, is that many of his friends are already attending this college. I admit, that when I walk onto the campus, the love of God is felt all around. It is in a city, in but when you step on the campus, it is like stepping into a bubble. It is like a huge magnet, drawing him in. Everyone we talk to who attended there feels like it was life changing for them. It is an amazing place. BUT>>> $75,000 in debt will be life changing as well! LOL Regular tuition is $20,000. He will scholarship at least 3500.year (possibly 5,000) based on his current grades plus SAT/ACT scores, going into the college.

 

 

#3 - There is a huge percentage of MDIV people who cannot find FT pastorates. Finding a FT pastorate without the MDIV is going to be difficult. Bivocational ministry is an option if he doesn't get the MDIV.

 

 

I tried to encourage him to stay in the sciences and to plan a part time science career to complement a part time ministry career. I heavily encouraged him to pursue a field like pharmacy where he can make $50+/hour. So he could support a wife and family on a part time career. He says he no longer enjoys the sciences and doesn't plan to go back. I suggest other industries and he feels that they would just be a waste of time, and says he knows what he wants to do. We have always told the kids that their tuition is up to them, we will allow them to live at home and help support them in that way. While he is agreeing to looking into other majors, he is now being drawn to music as a minor option. LOL :banghead:

 

#4 - In order to be a great pastor, he really needs the Greek/Hebrew. He really needs the classes on writing sermons, counseling, church organization, etc... He needs to set his ideas up against people who disagree and have academic arguments he must answer.

 

This school requires both I thank.

 

#5 - If it were my child, I'd encourage him to intern with a pastor for a while. Working as an associate pastor or youth pastor through school would be a great idea. (There are things that seminary doesn't cover!)

 

He has an internship starting in June. They are waiting for him to graduate high school. When he asked what he would be doing in his internship they said "everything you are already doing" LOL He volunteers extensively, and their last intern has moved on. Ds has already been filling his shoes with out the official title. He is very good friends with the pastor, his son, and 2 other youth pastors. These are the people he hangs out with and assists at the church. He has already written and given sermons to the high school group, leads classes and leads volunteer groups. He has a pretty good idea of what he is stepping into,....realizing that you can only gain so much knowledge from the outside. The internship will help him have the accountability that a volunteer doesn't have. But he is a devoted volunteer, so I don't know if it will matter to him. LOL

 

 

#6 - Pastoring is not a very stable job in many ways. He needs to have skills to fall back on should he need to get a secular job to provide for his family between ministry positions.

 

:iagree: thus #3

 

I am married to a pastor, and before I married him I served on a Pastor Search Committee. I will tell you, honestly, that there are two piles for resumes ime. Those with MDIV or higher. Those without.

 

Saying this....what difference do you feel there is in the two?

 

.

ETA: he is already finishing all the credits at a community college that he can transfer into MU. He will transfer in as a late year sophomore. He needs to catch up on the Biblical Studies that the freshman/sophomore students would have taken to be considered a Junior.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Tap, tap, tap

[Tap]

I don't really have an opinion about the degrees, but when I read your post, my main concern is whether or not he will make enough money in his chosen field to be able to comfortably pay off that debt.

 

If not, I would strongly suggest that he is absolutely sure that the ministry is the career for him, because you need a lot of dedication to be able to live very modestly and pay off large debts, because owing a lot of money and not seeing a strong income in your future can be very discouraging for anyone. Sure, he doesn't realize it now, but once he's married and has a few kids (and a lot of expenses,) the school debt may be quite overwhelming.

 

Please don't think I'm being snarky or that I'm discouraging his calling to the ministry. I'm just telling you what I would tell my own ds in the same situation, if he were to consider a potentially low-paying career. I think it's wonderful that he already knows what he wants to do with his life.

 

Has your ds ever considered being a theology professor, or working toward teaching in a M.Div. program? If so, perhaps he could get his Bachelor's degree and then try for a teaching fellowship in a good Master's program. (I don't know what to suggest as a Bachelor's degree for him, because I know nothing about M.Div. program requirements, but I would strongly suggest that he investigate the M.Div. programs now, and see what they advise in terms of what would be the most advantageous Bachelor's programs.)

 

Again, I'm not trying to be a wet blanket. I'm just thinking of how I would feel if my ds was going to have that level of debt, coupled with a career that might not pay too well.

 

 

I couldn't agree more! I have friends who have $100,00 in school loans and make $120,000 per year (pharmacists) and they struggle to pay them. I don't have any idea how these students are managing. The students that we know at this college, all come from families like ours and the kids are doing this on loans. It is hard to explain to him that he will regret this debt SO very much in the future. He pretty much responds with ' I see what you are saying but God will provide"

[SonshineLearner]

I feel like they should "show that they believe it's worth studying for".... know Hebrew and Greek.... and have or work towards a Doctorate of Theology degree.

[Changed]

No. I don't think one needs a degree to teach the word of God.

 

Ditto.

[indigomama]

Edited for too personal.

 

Yes, I think he needs some formal academic study to pastor.

 

Experience is equally important.

 

MU is a great school.

 

School debt is difficult.

 

God does provide.

Edited March 3, 2012 by indigomama
too personal

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dh (a pastor) is very glad that he got his BS in nursing before going for his MDiv for the pastorate. He supports his family with his nursing degree. The pastorate does not pay enough to support a family so he is bi-vocational and does the pastoring on weekends and evenings. It makes him very busy but allows him to satisfy both the call to take care of his family as well as his call to ministry.

[Lacie]

I voted other. I believe that some training is necessary, but not everyone needs a master's degree.

 

My suggestion would be to get the basic training and start working. If any additional training is needed it can be persued at that time.

 

A master's degree would be needed if one were going to be teaching other soon to be preachers or for other specialized works.

[FO4UR]

Saying this....what difference do you feel there is in the two?

 

Heh...the people with MDIV were looked at. The people without were not. The pile WITH was big enough that we didn't even get all the way through it... I'm saying that there is a great deal of competition for FT pastorates.

 

 

 

 

And, yes, God provides. He wants us to use good judgment and stewardship as well. It happens like this: He is married with 2-5 kids 15 years from now. God provides food, shelter, clothing for his family...but he might be making SL payments that are the majority of his income, forcing his wife to work outside the home (whether she wants to be at home with the children or not!), forcing him to decline invites to places that cost $ (where he could have made valuable contacts, etc), forcing them to live in poverty inspite of their income, forcing, forcing, forcing his hand to consider that debt every.single.decision.he.makes!

 

 

I just looked up my alma mater (undergrad), and it is 24,000/yr tuition + room and board. :001_huh: Prices have jumped considerably since I graduated! I *so* understand the "bubble" atmosphere, and I even agree that it is priceless. But the cost is seriously high! (and our debt is not even half of what your ds's would be...plus that of his future wife...can you imagine if he married there and the couple left with $200,00 in debt!?!) OK - I'm not helping.:lol:

 

 

I strongly agree with the advice to get a Bach degree in something secular that will be an income producer. God *usually* provides through w.o.r.k.:tongue_smilie:

 

 

That said, if he's such a great volunteer at the church...maybe there might be some financial help via the church. idk.

[Whereneverever]

I'd also personally shop out schools a little bit. If you aren't tied by denomination, see who will give him the best aid package. Does he have any specific interests? Something that makes him stand out?

[Dmmetler]

I'd also look at the average age of a pastor. I have two friends who have finished seminary (MDiv) in the last 5 years. Both were in their mid-late 30s, and that was TYPICAL of their classmates. Since your son would be graduating with his bachelor's at 19-20, I suspect he'll already have a barrier against him compared to adults who spent a decade or more as active lay workers in the church, often got ordained to lower levels of ministry (I don't know if your church does this, but in mine it would be typical), then went to seminary and got an MDiv. Frankly, the latter looks a lot more like the people on the council of Elders or Administrative board of the church who are doing the calling of pastors-and I suspect a young pastor without those years of church experience as an adult, AND a lower degree would be basically unemployable in the churches I know.

[Susan C.]

This is what I think today, lol!

 

Ds is about to graduate with an English degree. MDiv is listed as something he could pursue after his degree. I think it would be great for a pastor to have the knowledge you would get with an English degree, and it well prepares you to preach a sermon (a sermon is like a research essay if you think about it). All the sermons I like have a point, things (experiences, historical events, literary references, Bible verses used in context) to prove the point, and a conclusion. You definitely learn this as an English major. Also, it would be nice for a pastor to have mixed with "other than Bible major" people, since that is who he will pastor.

[Forget-Me-Not]

Other. I'm the same religion as Mama Sheep :)

[Cindyg]

I think a pastor should not be ignorant. There's not a particular degree or level of degree that I think is mandatory. But he certainly needs to be a student of the Word; and beyond that, he needs to know what great thinkers throughout history have thought of the issues. He needs to know the various schools of thought. When he speaks, it needs to be more than just his opinion. And he should not talk about what the words mean in the original Greek and Hebrew if he can't pronounce them correctly. This all requires disciplined study.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think a pastor should not be ignorant. There's not a particular degree or level of degree that I think is mandatory. But he certainly needs to be a student of the Word; and beyond that, he needs to know what great thinkers throughout history have thought of the issues. He needs to know the various schools of thought. When he speaks, it needs to be more than just his opinion. And he should not talk about what the words mean in the original Greek and Hebrew if he can't pronounce them correctly. This all requires disciplined study.

 

:iagree:

[Dustybug]

No. I don't think one needs a degree to teach the word of God.

 

:iagree::iagree:My standard for a pastor is that he preaches the truth from the Bible. I'm sure the disciples didn't go away to school before preaching to the masses. :tongue_smilie: My FIL is a pastor and he never even went to college. God still works through him. My pastor did go to college and God works through him as well. If they are truly called, the degree isn't important, jmvho.

[susankenny]

Yowza. That is a huge debt!

[forty-two]

Our denomination requires a four year MDiv for pastors. Any bachelor's is accepted (dh's is in biomedical science). The denom. covers a lot of the costs, but not all, and yes, Dh has a lot of loans and we're on the 30yr repayment plan. Anyway, I value the emphasis on pastoral education. I believe it is important they know the original languages and how to do solid interpretation of their own, how to critically evaluate others' interpretations, to know church history and theological history, to understand the whys and wherefores of our doctrine. Because sincere people can be enthusiastically wrong, and when they are leaders they take others with them :(.

[Susan in TN]

I am a big fan of higher degrees for pastors. They need it. They need that hard, dilligent, (dare I say sometimes boring) study so that they are well equiped to shepherd a people. You must have a solidly Biblical theology in order to lead or counsel people in a Biblical manner. Undergraduate degrees just don't do it any more. It may be a broad generalization, but what theology/Biblical studies majors come out of school with now was what they were required to have a good handle on simply to be admitted 150 years ago. That's pathetic. And it shows horribly in the modern church.

[ScoutTN]

IMO, anyone who is going to be a pastor, preaching and teaching the Word of God, needs to be able to read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. Perhaps not at the level that a PhD or other scholar would, but certainly with reasonable confidence.

 

Also necessary are a good understanding of systematic theology, eccelsiology, church history, and decent skills in preaching and counseling.

 

Certainly a young person could be in leadership or on a church staff while pursuing credentials/training. So much can be done online these days, but from my own experience, nothing can replace the experiential learning in the context of relationships with godly teachers and friends.

[ereks mom]

I don't think it is necessary for someone called by God but I think it is very helpful. I also think that in the course of being a pastor, whether or not you have a degree to begin with, you should constantly be educating yourself.

 

:iagree:

 

I think a pastor should not be ignorant. There's not a particular degree or level of degree that I think is mandatory. But he certainly needs to be a student of the Word; and beyond that, he needs to know what great thinkers throughout history have thought of the issues. He needs to know the various schools of thought. When he speaks, it needs to be more than just his opinion. And he should not talk about what the words mean in the original Greek and Hebrew if he can't pronounce them correctly. This all requires disciplined study.

 

:iagree:

[Chris in VA]

I don't think the apostles worked with people in as pastoral a role as a priest is called to. They didn't have a written New Testament, but certainly knew the OT scriptures in the original language, and were mentored by Jesus Christ himself. To compare them with the modern-day pastor doesn't really work, imo.

 

I do think people can teach and even preach the Bible with "just" the HS as a guide, but it is rare to be able to provide the leadership and other things needed by a church leader. The role is just so complex, for one!

 

Our denom requires a BS or BA, then an M.Div to be ordained as a priest. Those 3 years at seminary are packed--OT, NT, Greek, Hebrew, homiletics, pastoral counseling, Church history, etc. And we do have mentoring--each is required to spend two years paired with a priest in an active congregation while in school, and they give sermons, serve the youth/Sunday School, lead studies, etc. It's kind of like student teaching.

 

Most seminaries provide a LOT of financial aid in our denomination.

 

I'd counsel him to go to a different school, either for undergrad or M.Div.

[Guest]

No. I don't think one needs a degree to teach the word of God.

 

:iagree:

This thread is interesting, though.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I looked up Multnomah's website. They offer masters programs. They aren't the same small Bible college that they were when I went to seminary in Portland. I'd counsel him to get a BA in something marketable before going to seminary.

[Mama Anna]

I didn't vote because I'm really not sure. My dh has two seminary degrees (I have one) and is now working on his PhD at a seminary. I'm fine with where we are, but I know that all these degrees are not required to be a high-quality pastor.

 

Some of the upsides of having an MDiv: You (hopefully) are trained to exegete the Scriptures well when you preach - with the knowledge of the original languages to back you up. You also have opportunities to study subjects like worship and counseling.

 

A downside of having an MDiv: The debt you come out the other end with may very well prevent you from being free to follow God's call. Dh is presently communicating with a small church that has needed a pastor for 4 years or so. They keep updating their posting on our school's ministry positions board and not getting anyone because they need a pastor who will live locally in a rural area, be bivocational, and get paid $1,000/mo. Rare is the student who graduates with loans and has any hope of being able to afford such a church. Yet this little fellowship of believers needs a shepherd.

 

For the OP: I have a couple of suggestions for your son. (You mentioned that you'd like him to get a little more life-experience under his belt before he begins pastoring.) One is that he investigate spending a 1- to 2-year term being a missionary. That might very well provide lots of life experiences as well as allow him to "trust, try, and prove" God on a daily basis. The other is that he think about working his way through his MDiv so that he can graduate loan-free. It will take a lot longer, but the freedom he'll experience when he has his degree and can happily take whatever situation God leads him to without worrying about a pile of loan debt hanging over his head will be marvelous!

 

Just my thoughts!

Mama Anna

[ThisIsTheDay]

A pastor needs a gift for teaching, a servant's heart, and a clear calling to the ministry. That's just for starters.

 

I'm jaded.

 

Seriously. Does God really want His teachers to pay $75,000 to lead His church? Pastors have been around a lot longer than degrees. They seem to have been pretty successful without them.

[Dustybug]

A pastor needs a gift for teaching, a servant's heart, and a clear calling to the ministry. That's just for starters.

 

I'm jaded.

 

Seriously. Does God really want His teachers to pay $75,000 to lead His church? Pastors have been around a lot longer than degrees. They seem to have been pretty successful without them.

 

:iagree:

[sassenach]

I haven't read any of the responses.

 

My dh is a pastor who does not have an Mdiv. The way we ended up in ministry is unusual, as dh was called out of a highly successful business career and into ministry in such a way that did not allow for years of school in between. He was, however, mentored heavily by very, very well educated men. He was brought through what I would call a personal mDiv course by men who teach in seminary, pastor, and author books. Men who are very capable and whom I trust and love. I appreciated then, and even more so now, that they recognized the uniqueness of the way God was calling dh into ministry and what their role was to be in the midst of all that. "God does not call the qualified, he qualifies the called," was a quote that meant a lot to me in that season.

 

ALL THAT SAID.... dh would love to go to seminary. We keep waiting for the season, and God keeps holding us off. Part of why dh wants to go is that it can sometimes be hard to be in a world where everyone has all sorts of letters after their names, and he is very aware that he doesn't (so I would say that is not the best reason). The other reason is just for the pure joy of learning more about the kingdom of God. This is a very good reason and truly the driving force in his desire.

 

I do not think (and most seminarians I know would fully agree) that seminary really prepares one for ministry. In fact, in some ways it takes away some of the best, most energetic years of your life. It sometimes inflates heads, but not hearts. I've definitely seen that. It truly has its pros and cons. But if it was my son, and he was totally sure of his call to pastoral ministry, I would CAREFULLY choose a seminary and send him.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[LucyStoner]

I would not encourage him to take on that sort of debt. I would encourage him to:

 

Work and save his money so he can pay more towards his education

Apply for scholarships far and wide

Get his BA at a public school and then go to MU or similar for a MDiv

 

Ministers often make near poverty level wages as it is, if they are able to find a church. Taking on that kind of debt seems to be unwise. Student loan debt is only dischargeable for serious disability or death. That sort of debt will come with a small housing payment size monthly bill for 10 years.

[Tap]

I love how this board can be so very split on a topic, and we can still have a wonderful discussion about it in a civil way. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this Poll/Thread. If you are interested in my thoughts after this thread and dh's discussions here they are:

 

 

I have read and reread everyones posts. Some, I read to dh also as we have been discussing this heavily these past couple of days. I can see the point of view of each person here.

 

I do not feel that a person has to have a formal education to lead and have profound impact on a congregation. He studies constantly on his own and has done so for at least 2 years. He does small group Bible studies at church, and also with a small group of close friends, and sometimes on his own. His youth group leader works on hermeneutics with the students, so he is also teaching them to study the Bible, not just read it. On the other hand, I think ds has spent most of his study time, with people who agree with him on major points. I do not feel like he has a lot of experience in debating points and hearing countering information. Ds is a natural leader, well educated and I see a lot of people seem to just agree with him. I think this can be a wonderful trait, but also very dangerous. I think ds's heart and soul are 100% in the right place. I think that without further education, he would be a wonderful, kind, forgiving pastor who could lead a happy flock.

 

 

 

I do think that having a formal education allows a pastor more knowledge to draw from, more depth and a better understanding of other people's view on similar topics. I know that some of the professors will challenge his ideals to the point of him downright disagreeing with them (based on other students reports). I think this is something he needs. Even though it will be in a Bible college bubble, I think it would also give him a chance to really experience counter thoughts, and to really 'flush out his faith'. To me it will be the equivalent of a 'Bible think tank'. Ds is drawn to academics. He scored in the top 3% on the ACT. Even though he is young, he can handle the academics. He is a logical thinker and looks for evidence to back up his thoughts. Education will help him with that. I think that without a formal education, he will continue to study independently, and unfortunately,I also think that can be dangerous due to the lack of countering information/dialog to challenge ideals and to show how anther person can interpret the same information. with very different results.

 

I do think that education can lead to elitism, or an 'I know more than you, so I am right' mentality. DS is not a prideful person as of yet, and casts aside things that may make him seem to be more than he was. (ie he wouldn't take his laptop to school because he didn't want to appear spoiled. Instead he handwrite and transcribed all of his work into his computer when he got home). He is a minimalist and to him the highest praise, is a kindly spoken word.

 

The debt...it is huge. To people who suggest working through school...in our area, it is hard to get even a minimum wage job. He does have a job, he tutors upper level math at a learning center. He volunteers, carries 16 college credits and is busy in church. I would hate to seem him try to work more. He may have to, but he has so little time as it is. His pay is being saved to send himself on a missions trip to Haiti in the summer.

 

I think our next step is to look at Bachelor degrees that will pay more than minimum wage. I think maybe a career counselor may be our next step. Maybe we can find something that will not require too many more classes that what he is already planning to take. A 2-3 month mission trip or maybe an inner-city option will be considered instead of Haiti. Thank you everyone! Please continue to add to this thread, it has been very interesting to hear the varying points of view.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Tap, tap, tap