8 year old out of control kid maced-- Mom mad.. has this been posted??

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

What are your thoughts on this== because I sure have my thoughts.. I will post those in a bit ;)

 

 

Here is another video :blink: :eek: The schools fault????? Ok I am not a supporter of PS (obviously) but come on.....

Edited April 7, 2011 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[katilac]

Is it bad that my first thought was that the Cinci convention could have benefitted from some judiciously applied pepper spray? Never mind, I'm pretty sure it is.

 

I can't give my true thoughts just yet, b/c everyone is sleeping and I dont' have my earphones.

[Ailaena]

I usually hesitate upon offering an opinion, but this case bothers me for some reason. I really think there is some ulterior motive for the family speaking about it now when it happened so long ago - as though someone suggested to them that they could sue and a lawyer may take the case on contingency. I am by no means an expert on psychology or body language, but you could tell the difference between what the boy was coached to say and what he actually felt.

 

As to whether or not it was justified, I cannot say because I was not there. It sounds extreme, but I have seen kids rage before and it is nothing nice, it is absolutely scary. They could try and talk to him, and should, but can we expect an 8-year-old to be totally rational? Does he even understand his emotions well enough to know why he feels the way he does?

 

 

Here is the article from the Denver Post that gave just slightly more significant info:

 

Colorado police pepper-spray misbehaving boy, 8By SHEILA V KUMAR Associated Press

Posted: 04/06/2011 05:19:16 AM MDT

Updated: 04/06/2011 06:46:50 PM MDT

 

 

DENVER—Eight-year-old Aidan Elliott had thrown a TV and chairs at his Colorado elementary school and was trying to use a cart to bust through a door to an office where teachers and other students fled for safety.

 

No one could calm the boy, not even the staff in a program for children with behavior problems like him. So they called police, who had intervened with Aidan twice before.

 

 

 

Police found him with a foot-long piece of wood trim with a knife-like point in one hand and a cardboard box in the other.

 

 

 

"Come get me, f-----," he said.

 

 

 

When they couldn't calm him down, one squirted Aidan with pepper spray. He blocked it with the cardboard box.

A second squirt hit the youngster in the side of the head, and down he went, according to an account of the Feb. 22 standoff in a police report first obtained by KUSA-TV.

 

 

 

Aidan and his mother went on national talk shows on Wednesday to say using pepper spray on an unruly 8-year-old was too much.

Police and officials at Glennon Heights Elementary in Lakewood, Colo., say it could've been worse.

 

 

 

"Had the officers chosen to be hands-on with him, the potential for him getting some type of injury and, maybe even officers, would have been much higher," police spokesman Steve Davis said.

"It was the best choice made," he said.

 

 

 

Aidan started acting up while on the bus to school, the police report said. He began screaming and then continued after breakfast while throwing chairs at his teachers.

 

 

 

"He was being very aggressive, very violent," said Melissa Reeves, the school district spokeswoman.

 

 

 

There were eight students with Aidan in the classroom, Reeves said, and teachers removed them after he became violent. They barricaded themselves in an office, as he tried to bust in, Davis said.

Aidan was swearing and shouting expletives at his teachers and threatening them, Davis said. He taunted police when they arrived.

 

 

 

"I wanted to make something sharp, like if they came out, 'cause I was so mad at them," the boy said on NBC's "Today" show. "I was going to try to whack them with it."

 

 

 

After hitting him with the second squirt, officers took Aidan outside for some fresh air to help dissipate the spray. Paramedics were treating his red, irritated face with cool water when his mother arrived.

According to the report, Mandy Elliott asked her son what he did.

When he told her he had been hit with pepper spray, she is quoted as saying, "Well, you probably deserved it."

 

 

 

It wasn't the first time officers had been called to pacify Aidan, Davis said. They'd been able to talk him down in two other incidents.

 

 

 

On Wednesday, Mandy Elliott said she wished authorities had chosen to talk him down. She also wanted police to get special training in dealing with children. Aidan has since transferred to another school.

 

 

 

When asked about the pepper spray and what he did, Aidan said: "I kind of deserved it."

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Pepper spray is different than mace.

 

And mom says he PROBABLY deserved it?!! What the heck, man.

[5forMe]

I saw the interview on ABC Good Morning America yesterday morning. I got the feeling that the little boy has no remorse and the mother just sat there and didn't add much to the conversation, she let the boy do all the talking. It was weird. But I will say that I think the teachers/bus drivers hands are tied when they can't physically restrain a child who is holding a board in a threatening manner and threatening to "kill you". There is nothing left for the school to do but call the police and the police were just doing their job.

 

Pepper Spray...sounds excessive but in this "sue happy" environment where these public servants (teachers, bus drivers and police) are trying to work, they are left with very few options.

 

Oh and the mom said "well, he was on medication but he was gaining weight, so we took him off". Um...really? To me that was a cop out.

 

I think this is another classic example of a parent putting their kid on that yellow bus and expecting the school system to raise their kid for them.

[Journey]

I was talking with a friend about this yesteday. I dunno....I don't think I disagree with what the authorities did. I mean, they were scared, this kid was out of control and not for the first time, he had a weapon and the threatened to kill them...then when asked if he meant it....he said he sort of did. THAT is a problem. Obviously the boy is the ruler of that house. That mother needs to grow up and be a mother. If my child were in that child's class, I would want something like that to happen (apparently there were no other kids in the class). I feel bad for that kid because if he's this "bad" now, I shudder to think what he's going to be like when he gets bigger and older. I commend the authorities. They did what they needed to do and hopefull all of them will learn from this. The child wasn't hurt.

[JudoMom]

I saw the interview on ABC Good Morning America yesterday morning. I got the feeling that the little boy has no remorse and the mother just sat there and didn't add much to the conversation, she let the boy do all the talking. It was weird. But I will say that I think the teachers/bus drivers hands are tied when they can't physically restrain a child who is holding a board in a threatening manner and threatening to "kill you". There is nothing left for the school to do but call the police and the police were just doing their job.

 

Pepper Spray...sounds excessive but in this "sue happy" environment where these public servants (teachers, bus drivers and police) are trying to work, they are left with very few options.

 

Oh and the mom said "well, he was on medication but he was gaining weight, so we took him off". Um...really? To me that was a cop out.

 

I think this is another classic example of a parent putting their kid on that yellow bus and expecting the school system to raise their kid for them.

 

I saw part of that yesterday, and what got me was they asked the boy if he meant it when he said he wanted to kill them, and the boy responded with an affirmative response (it was something like "sort of"). Imagine what would've happened if the police hadn't pepper sprayed him and he was able to injure another student or teacher.

[ChristusG]

I see nothing wrong with what the authorities did. I mean, the kid was throwing television sets and threatening people with sharp objects. The police chose a way to rein him in that would cause the keast amount of force to be used. Yes, pepper spray hurts but that feeling will fade. The kid was totally out of control.

[angela in ohio]

Dh deals with this on a daily basis. There are students just like this in every school district, and there is plenty of training available. The staff should be trained to do CPI (crisis prevention intervention.) I don't know if the laws differ by state, but in our state they can restrain child if they follow the rules and precautions. They should have an action plan for this student, and it shouldn't be hiding in an office and calling the police.

 

Dh and his team (social workers, teachers, etc.) have disarmed kiddos with knives and scissors without the use of pepper spray. If the staff is in a special program for students with behavior issues, they should have been able to handle this situation before the police had to be called.

 

I don't think the mom has a case, but I think more could have been done for this boy.

[Parrothead]

Kid had a weapon and threatened bodily harm to others. Better he was sprayed with pepper spray then shot with a taser or a handgun.

[ktgrok]

Dh deals with this on a daily basis. There are students just like this in every school district, and there is plenty of training available. The staff should be trained to do CPI (crisis prevention intervention.) I don't know if the laws differ by state, but in our state they can restrain child if they follow the rules and precautions. They should have an action plan for this student, and it shouldn't be hiding in an office and calling the police.

 

Dh and his team (social workers, teachers, etc.) have disarmed kiddos with knives and scissors without the use of pepper spray. If the staff is in a special program for students with behavior issues, they should have been able to handle this situation before the police had to be called.

 

I don't think the mom has a case, but I think more could have been done for this boy.

:iagree:

[Journey]

If the mother isn't to blame here...then who is? If my child(ren) acted like this, it would be my fault. Not yours, not the teacher's, not the mailman's. He could have been born with a disability (can't think of the name of it right now) but it is his mother's job to find him the help he needs and she said (I heard her) that he was on medication before for his anger issues but it made him gain weight so she took him off and now he is on nothing. Well, maybe he needs SOMETHING, he is out of control. The school he is in now, he has been in before. They are going to run out of schools pretty soon and then what? He also said that he gets mad because he wants to be home with his mom who isn't home alot....what's up with that? So, yes, I blame the mother...she needs to buck up and start being a parent or else someone is going to end up getting hurt. Putting her son out there like she's doing is NOT the way to make money.

[BeckyFL]

My question is... what is this kid going to do as an adult? Wow!

[Margaret in GA]

If the mother isn't to blame here...then who is? If my child(ren) acted like this, it would be my fault. Not yours, not the teacher's, not the mailman's. He could have been born with a disability (can't think of the name of it right now) but it is his mother's job to find him the help he needs and she said (I heard her) that he was on medication before for his anger issues but it made him gain weight so she took him off and now he is on nothing. Well, maybe he needs SOMETHING, he is out of control. The school he is in now, he has been in before. They are going to run out of schools pretty soon and then what? He also said that he gets mad because he wants to be home with his mom who isn't home alot....what's up with that? So, yes, I blame the mother...she needs to buck up and start being a parent or else someone is going to end up getting hurt. Putting her son out there like she's doing is NOT the way to make money.

 

 

I'm thinking it's probably a single mom and she needs to work outside the home. I hate blaming other moms, because we have no idea how difficult their situation may be. Sounds like this kid requires saint-like patience to deal with. Not sure I could be that kind of parent. I do think if you need to take your child off his meds, you need to have a backup program in mind. Maybe altering the child's diet? Of course, whenever I share with people that they may want to alter their diet since they are sick all the time or their kids are constantly sick, they tell me that would be too hard. Okaaaay

 

Margaret

[kchara]

I just watched this on CNN. I don't know what to think. He seemed like the sweetest thing and his mother was very soft spoken. Obviously he has some issues.

 

It probably wasn't right, but at that moment they may not have known what to do to get him calm. And if the mother is upset with how the school treats him then homeschool!

 

Yeah, the "sweetest, smartest" kid in my family set fire to a townhome (and ended up burning down 3 by the time it was done) and routinely tries to set the dogs on fire. His grandmother (who's raising him) can appear very sweet and soft spoken, too, and to a point, she is, but he has some serious issues. Some of them are chemical, but some are behavioral, and they try to excuse them, b/c of the chemical. He's in therapy today, but wouldn't be, if he hadn't have burnt down the homes, and the state mandated it. It sounds like this boy is in a similar position. It's sad; I hear this kid saying things that my cousin would say, and it's come directly from the adults in his life. But at the same time, the teachers, administrators, and police shouldn't have to put their safety on the line to deal with an out of control 8 year old kid. IMHO, he should've been expelled the FIRST time they had to call the police.

[Mrs Mungo]

This is why kids with issues, but have good discipline, nutrition and so forth have trouble getting help.

[Haiku]

I used to work with kids with emotional/mental problems. Very young kids can be very violent and strong. If he had a dagger-like implement and was wielding it, I have to say, in my honest opinion, pepper spray was probably the best option. As the article mentions, trying to physically subdue him could increase his risk of injury.

 

I know he's young. I know it sounds unfair. I know people could be appalled at the idea of pepper spraying a kid. But some kids just. won't. quit. and can be extremely dangerous to themselves and others.

 

Tara

[FaithManor]

Sad to say, having been attacked by a five year old child with reactive attachment disorder (while doing respite care for a foster family), I can honestly say that there are children for whom your choice is something like pepper spray or seriously, bodily hurt them if you must protect someone else from the child. The adrenalin rush and rage is so intense that restraining them is not a workable option and the adult that attempts it is going to be hurt and I don't mean just a bruise. I mean a concussion, broken ribs, poked out eyes, shins so badly kicked it hurts to stand and you develop dangerous hematomas, hunks of flesh ripped out from the bites - not little bites - mountain lion ripping flesh bites! If they have a weapon, many times you better be prepared to be lethally attacked. Ask my friend Pam who ended up in the hospital for knife wounds from an eight year old and as a foster mother, she is not allowed by law to do much to protect herself because the social workers call it "abuse" and charge the parent.

 

Some children are very, dangerously mentally ill and medicating peds is ridiculously tricky for RAD and any of the delusional/hallucinatory issues. I don't know what this kid's problem is, but I don't blame the police or school staff, not one little bit.

 

Faith

[Chris in VA]

I don't know if they could have done something different, but I'll tell you the fact that he said he "sort of" meant it (I saw the clip on World News Tonight) would tell me there's a mental health issue. I don't think pepper spray is as bad as tazing.

 

The thing that gets me is that he is being transferred to a different school. Doesn't sound like it's going to be addressed.

 

I can't blame the mom, only. I feel compassion for her. And a bit for him, too--he's obviously not a happy kid and can't cope with the stress he's feeling, whether that stress comes from a mental illness or his environment or both. I could see him turning to substance abuse to tone down his feelings, and that's a road I wouldn't wish on any kid.

[Remudamom]

I would normally say that pepper spraying a child is outrageous, but if this kid was in my classroom I'd keep it handy and let him know I would use it at first provocation.

[chiguirre]

Dh deals with this on a daily basis. There are students just like this in every school district, and there is plenty of training available. The staff should be trained to do CPI (crisis prevention intervention.) I don't know if the laws differ by state, but in our state they can restrain child if they follow the rules and precautions. They should have an action plan for this student, and it shouldn't be hiding in an office and calling the police.

 

Dh and his team (social workers, teachers, etc.) have disarmed kiddos with knives and scissors without the use of pepper spray. If the staff is in a special program for students with behavior issues, they should have been able to handle this situation before the police had to be called.

 

I don't think the mom has a case, but I think more could have been done for this boy.

 

:iagree::iagree: The teachers at ds1's school deal with aggression daily, but they don't let it escalate to this level. They know proper restraint techniques, work in pairs and have a quiet room. That's all standard for dealing with autistic kids. I can't imagine a sn teacher in a behavioral self-contained class wouldn't have those very basic resources at their disposal to deal with this kid. What a crummy school district!

[Impish]

I see nothing wrong with what the authorities did. I mean, the kid was throwing television sets and threatening people with sharp objects. The police chose a way to rein him in that would cause the least amount of force to be used. Yes, pepper spray hurts but that feeling will fade. The kid was totally out of control.

 

Kid had a weapon and threatened bodily harm to others. Better he was sprayed with pepper spray then shot with a taser or a handgun.

 

I used to work with kids with emotional/mental problems. Very young kids can be very violent and strong. If he had a dagger-like implement and was wielding it, I have to say, in my honest opinion, pepper spray was probably the best option. As the article mentions, trying to physically subdue him could increase his risk of injury.

 

I know he's young. I know it sounds unfair. I know people could be appalled at the idea of pepper spraying a kid. But some kids just. won't. quit. and can be extremely dangerous to themselves and others.

 

Tara

 

Sad to say, having been attacked by a five year old child with reactive attachment disorder (while doing respite care for a foster family), I can honestly say that there are children for whom your choice is something like pepper spray or seriously, bodily hurt them if you must protect someone else from the child. The adrenalin rush and rage is so intense that restraining them is not a workable option and the adult that attempts it is going to be hurt and I don't mean just a bruise. I mean a concussion, broken ribs, poked out eyes, shins so badly kicked it hurts to stand and you develop dangerous hematomas, hunks of flesh ripped out from the bites - not little bites - mountain lion ripping flesh bites! If they have a weapon, many times you better be prepared to be lethally attacked. Ask my friend Pam who ended up in the hospital for knife wounds from an eight year old and as a foster mother, she is not allowed by law to do much to protect herself because the social workers call it "abuse" and charge the parent.

 

Some children are very, dangerously mentally ill and medicating peds is ridiculously tricky for RAD and any of the delusional/hallucinatory issues. I don't know what this kid's problem is, but I don't blame the police or school staff, not one little bit.

 

Faith

:iagree: with all the above.

 

I don't see where an intervention wasn't attempted by staff. Not everything works with everyone.

 

I do think that expecting staff to risk their lives is a bit much. And it sounds like this kiddo was violent enough that it was a serious consideration.

[kchara]

:iagree::iagree: The teachers at ds1's school deal with aggression daily, but they don't let it escalate to this level. They know proper restraint techniques, work in pairs and have a quiet room. That's all standard for dealing with autistic kids. I can't imagine a sn teacher in a behavioral self-contained class wouldn't have those very basic resources at their disposal to deal with this kid. What a crummy school district!

 

This isn't autism. This is a whole 'nother issue. You can't deal the same way with a kid like this as you do with an autistic child, and visa versa. It just won't work. I'm sure the teachers were quite well trained, but what do you do when an 8 year old has a dagger and is trying to kill you? You have to do what it takes to keep everyone safe, including yourself and the other children in your care.

[Joker]

I think its ridiculous that part of a teacher's job should be to try and disarm a child with a dagger who is threatening to kill. :001_huh: There should be no bad talk about them if each and every time they lock themselves and other students in a closet and call the police. My brother, my sister and my sis-in-law are all teachers and I would want them to be safe and let the police handle an out of control student.

[Haiku]

I'm sure the teachers were quite well trained

 

I would not make that assumption. When I worked for a program that worked with kids in an SBH (severely behaviorally handicapped) classroom, their school was in an old house. The "teacher" was gym teacher (and I am not denigrating gym teachers ... just making the point that he was NOT a special ed teacher) who sat at his desk and read a newspaper while the students went to various other rooms in the house and watched movies, smoked, and had sex (seriously).

 

Occasionally the teacher had an aide helping him.

 

It was horrifying.

 

I would never assume that a teacher had been specially trained in dealing with violent kids.

 

Tara

[unsinkable]

I think its ridiculous that part of a teacher's job should be to try and disarm a child with a dagger who is threatening to kill. :001_huh: There should be no bad talk about them if each and every time they lock themselves and other students in a closet and call the police. My brother, my sister and my sis-in-law are all teachers and I would want them to be safe and let the police handle an out of control student.

 

:iagree:

[homeschoolmomtutu]

oy vey!

[Mommy22alyns]

Wow. The kid deserved it. I don't see what else they could have done. And now they're getting media attention all over the place?!?! Just disgusting.

[lionfamily1999]

Didn't finish the video. Didn't read the posts.

 

I'm sorry, they should not have sprayed him (that's crazy), but the poor kid needs a parent. Saying it's between the school and her son and there's nothing she can do is just... there are no words. I guess she'll send him to a different school once she sues the pants off the police department.

 

Wow.

 

ETA, finished the video. N/M I don't know what else they could do. Is it strange that the boy is this honest? I mean, I would think that most kids, even if they weren't remorsefull, would have at least lied about it (that's horrible isn't it?). The mother seems like she is totally in over her head and has just given up, or is it just me?

Edited April 8, 2011 by lionfamily1999

[Tap]

Well, as a parent of one of these kids, I have to say it isn't as easy as "talking him down".

 

DD4 (adopted) is very, very violent. She has been with us since she was 5months old, and from birth to 4mo was with my mother. She was never abused or neglected. Dh and I have a sound marriage. Ds16 is one of the most gentle people you could ever meet, and dd12 is energetic but has a heart of gold. She has been raised in a strong, loving home, with firm rules, standards of behavior, and not only 2 adults, but 2 older children to act as strong role models. (DD12 is 8years older, ds is 12years older) She has been in one daycare from day one. There are kids in daycare with her, that she has known for over 4 years. Even with her issues, they have worked with us and her to help support her development. I check in with our bio-kids every few months to make sure they are still okay with us parenting her. Her rages affect them so much, they need to have a voice in this too. They agree that it is the best place for her.....but her placement with us, is not the best for them. They know the alternative is foster care, they are not willing to send their little sister away.

 

DD4 has been in therapy since she was 2yo. From 1yo to 2yo, she was so violent that we almost had to give her back to the state. She would lunge for people, completely unprovoked, using any weapon she could get her hands on. Her eyes would go Black, as her pupils would dilate as wide as they could go. She would rage.....claw, rip and tear at anyone near her. One day in daycare, she chased a teacher around the room kicking her relentlessly...she was 3yo, but already weighed 45lbs at the time, and is a powerhouse. Before she was 4yo, we had to put her on risperdal- an atypical antipsychotic......before she was 4yo! We couldn't control her.

 

I am not a naive, under skilled or reactionist parent. I spent 3+ years working one-on-one with 2 adults who were both autisitc-bipolar-psychotic. They were controlled somewhat with meds, but went into full blown psychotic episodes often. I have the training to deal with them. I have had dd4 in behavior therapy, weekly for over 100 sessions. I have read so many parenting books, I have shelves full.

 

If the mom on the couch looks complacent, or like she has given up...She may have. There are many, many times that I have had that same look. My kids have taken a beating, I have taken a beating and my marriage has. We are strong, and we always rally, but we are definitely battle scarred. If I didn't have my older kids as testaments to my husband's and my abilty to raise decent children, I am sure I would feel like it was much more my fault, that I already do.

 

Maybe the mom is bringing this up for money....sure, but maybe it so her son can get help. One of the things in our favor, is that, since dd4 was in the foster system, she has state insurance as well as our own. There Is No Way I could have paid for all the therapy she has recieved out of pocket. Many, many insurance policies don't cover OT or if they do, they don't cover mental health. I know her sessions are around $180 each, she has had over 200 sessions! This isn't including her medical doctor, medical tests to monitor her medications, her orthotics in her shoes, her cardiologist appt for her murmer. Her new medication....is $580 per month. Yep, the state insurance pays for it. Your tax dollars at work. She, like the boy in the story was on a medication that causes weight gain, it is likely the risperdal, as it is one of the few approved for use in children. She gained over 9lbs in 6mths. She now weighs almost 60lbs...at 4.5yo. I recently put up a post that I was worrying about her weight, I didn't mention the med, because, going off the med isn't an option. Her psychiatrist wants us to try this new med instead. If she continues to gain weight at this rapid rate, we will have to add a medication that they use to treat type 2 diabetes in adults. If that does't work, what does a parent do...at this rate she could be a 100lb 6yo! Where does weight gain, turn into morbid obesity for children? There aren't many meds that are approved for children with mental health disorders....would you sign your kid up for a drug trial for antipsychotics??!?! The risperdal isn't even approved for her age, but we had to do something, she was out of control.

 

 

 

Don't pass judgement on this mom, you have NO idea what she has or hasn't tried. YOu don't know if she is like me and has gone to therapy for YEARS, trying idea after idea, medicating a young child with antipsychotics, and possibly alone (!) I can't even imagine.

 

 

As far as the pepper spray....I don't have a problem with it. It got the kids attention, and aside from being painful at the time, it won't leave any damage other than a memory that may stick with him a while. If I was told someone needed to pepper spray dd4, I would understand and likely would make the same comment the mom did at first '...probably deserved it'. To those who think he should have been forcibly held down, remember he had a weapon that was longer that the officers reach. One of the officers could have likely been injured. If not that, don't you realize that a raging child, doesn't go peaceably! The child would have been injured (not massively, but hurt with strong hands restraining him) when he was held down, and removed from the location. It would not have been gentle, he would not have been peaceably walked out of the room.

 

 

 

If you have questions....ask away. I put on Rhino skin....

[Guest pablowest]

Mom should understand their child about that incident. Children don't understand what they are doing. :D

[mom2scouts]

I support what the police did. It quickly diffused the situation and protected the other children. Would you want your child to be at risk with this child around? We had neighbors who had a child like this. He would lose control and start throwing chairs and other things at the teacher. Once he was in my yard and he got angry at my son who was 5 at the time. He found a huge chunk of concrete and threw it at my son's face, cutting his lip all the way through to the gums. We needed to go to the ER, get many stitches and pay out of pocket (we couldn't afford health insurance at the time but the other family was on welfare and wouldn't pay). We're fortunate that the concrete didn't hit my son's head. He's 19 now and still has a large scar. There are some very young children who are very dangerous.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I saw the interview on ABC Good Morning America yesterday morning. I got the feeling that the little boy has no remorse and the mother just sat there and didn't add much to the conversation, she let the boy do all the talking. It was weird. But I will say that I think the teachers/bus drivers hands are tied when they can't physically restrain a child who is holding a board in a threatening manner and threatening to "kill you". There is nothing left for the school to do but call the police and the police were just doing their job.

 

Pepper Spray...sounds excessive but in this "sue happy" environment where these public servants (teachers, bus drivers and police) are trying to work, they are left with very few options.

Oh and the mom said "well, he was on medication but he was gaining weight, so we took him off". Um...really? To me that was a cop out.

I think this is another classic example of a parent putting their kid on that yellow bus and expecting the school system to raise their kid for them.

 

:iagree:

 

Is it so unusual for 8 year olds not to have remorse though? Especially 8 year olds with obvious issues?

 

:iagree:

 

My question is... what is this kid going to do as an adult? Wow!

 

:iagree:

 

Maybe i am completely wrong- but this looks like the kid is not used to hearing somebody say no to him. What is that going to teach him? He said when asked why he did that "ummm like.. there was something I wanted to do and ummm like they didnt let me do it and ummmm like I got really really mad" :eek: What kind of discipline has this child had? Single mom or not they need discipline. I do feel bad for the lady but come on...

[Kirch]

I can't believe the mother said that it was a problem for the school and her son to work out. HELLO---YOU'RE THE MOTHER!! If your child is out of control, it IS your issue, no matter where he is.

 

I definitely don't blame the mom for his issues--I know there are kids out there who have serious mental health/behavioral issues that would be beyond just about any parent's ability to handle. But it just seems like she's trying to blame it on the school and distance herself--and even her son (implying that it's something wrong on the school's end and not really his fault)--from it all.

 

I just have a hard time believing he has no issues anywhere/with anyone else, unless he pretty much gets his way the rest of the time and school is the only place he has real limits and that sets him off??? That's the only way I can even imagine it. And if mom is dealing with him mostly on her own, I can understand how she would get to that place (of not telling him "no"). Not okay, and would make the situation worse overall, but I can see how she'd get there.

 

I agree that pepper spray was probably the safest, fastest way to resolve the situation. But what a situation.

[lionfamily1999]

I can't believe the mother said that it was a problem for the school and her son to work out. HELLO---YOU'RE THE MOTHER!! If your child is out of control, it IS your issue, no matter where he is.

 

I definitely don't blame the mom for his issues--I know there are kids out there who have serious mental health/behavioral issues that would be beyond just about any parent's ability to handle. But it just seems like she's trying to blame it on the school and distance herself--and even her son (implying that it's something wrong on the school's end and not really his fault)--from it all.

 

I just have a hard time believing he has no issues anywhere/with anyone else, unless he pretty much gets his way the rest of the time and school is the only place he has real limits and that sets him off??? That's the only way I can even imagine it. And if mom is dealing with him mostly on her own, I can understand how she would get to that place (of not telling him "no"). Not okay, and would make the situation worse overall, but I can see how she'd get there.

 

I agree that pepper spray was probably the safest, fastest way to resolve the situation. But what a situation.

That is where my sympathy stopped too. For the parents with children who have violent tempers and needed therapy, would you EVER have said such a thing?!? Ever?

[kalanamak]

Don't pass judgement on this mom, you have NO idea what she has or hasn't tried. YOu don't know if she is like me and has gone to therapy for YEARS, trying idea after idea, medicating a young child with antipsychotics, and possibly alone (!) I can't even imagine.

.

 

My only judgment is that she put this minor on TV. Ugh.

 

And yes, children can have seemingly superhuman strength and speed when worked up.

 

Tap, I recently reread a quick book, a memoir, from the 1960s that spurred me to go into mental health. I read it as a kid, and perhaps your teens would like it. You can get it on Amazon. It is called This Stranger My Son by Louise Wilson.

[pdalley]

I haven't watched the clips on the kid and Mom but coming this is our own experience for what its worth.

 

The last big meltdown my oldest son had (autistic) I went to the school. He was trying to calm down but the SRO officer wouldn't stop talking. I saw him becoming agitated and I restrained him. (He wound up knocking out my tooth but better me than someone else) An autistic in a meltdown is similar to a seizure. He honestly did not know what was going on. Afterwards he knew something bad had happened and he did it but he didn't know what. He was very remorseful. It turns out that he had a raging case of strep and he cannot communicate his physical pain. (We're still working on that)

 

We brought him home. Not just because of the issues with the public school administrators who refused to follow the intervention plans that should have stopped the meltdown progression (I have no idea if they would have worked or not because they never once followed the plan) but because this is our kid and we're ultimately responsible for his actions and behavior.

 

He's had maybe two that severe since coming home - in four years. But then I can control the environment - I see the rumbles and intervene. And he's maturing. He has not hit anyone since coming home. Not me - not his brothers - no one. The only time I saw him hit anyone was when they tried to restrain him. He's very defensive in a meltdown.

 

My middle son -who was assaulted by a teacher at one point - has had not one single outburst of that nature since we brought him home. Not one.

 

The youngest we never sent past Pre K and he was fine the entire time there.

 

There are so many variables. The environment - bright lights, loud noise, etc - had a lot to do with our kids basic incompatibility with a ps classroom.

 

Maybe she's given up - I don't know. All I know is that we figured the buck stopped with us and we found a solution that works for us and ours.

 

Sad situation.

[angela in ohio]

He was trying to calm down but the SRO officer wouldn't stop talking.

 

Dh has seen this many times. He goes into a situation (or is sorting it out afterwards) and an adult is actually making it much worse. He has had to move students to other classrooms because a teacher just couldn't stop antagonizing a kid with problems.

 

We don't know why the kid in the story has problems at school but not at home (or if that is even true.) We have seen it quite a few times, though, so it isn't impossible.

 

And yes, when you take a job working with SBH children, physical danger is part of the job. Dh has taken his fair share of bloody lips, scratches, and bruises, and he's a big strong guy. I can't imagine just calling the police instead of having a plan and working with the child to resolve their issues. These are people... children... and they deserve to be treated as if they have potential and are worth the effort.

 

Of course, the medication thing bugs me. Dh has had kiddos who were doing very well on meds, and then the parents hear on the internet about how "all the schools overmedicate all the kids." :glare: Next thing you know, you have a child with schizophrenia or other serious diagnoses with no meds going to school. :001_huh:

[unsinkable]

I haven't watched the clips on the kid and Mom but coming this is our own experience for what its worth.

 

The last big meltdown my oldest son had (autistic) I went to the school. He was trying to calm down but the SRO officer wouldn't stop talking. I saw him becoming agitated and I restrained him. (He wound up knocking out my tooth but better me than someone else) An autistic in a meltdown is similar to a seizure. He honestly did not know what was going on. Afterwards he knew something bad had happened and he did it but he didn't know what. He was very remorseful. It turns out that he had a raging case of strep and he cannot communicate his physical pain. (We're still working on that)

 

We brought him home. Not just because of the issues with the public school administrators who refused to follow the intervention plans that should have stopped the meltdown progression (I have no idea if they would have worked or not because they never once followed the plan) but because this is our kid and we're ultimately responsible for his actions and behavior.

 

He's had maybe two that severe since coming home - in four years. But then I can control the environment - I see the rumbles and intervene. And he's maturing. He has not hit anyone since coming home. Not me - not his brothers - no one. The only time I saw him hit anyone was when they tried to restrain him. He's very defensive in a meltdown.

 

My middle son -who was assaulted by a teacher at one point - has had not one single outburst of that nature since we brought him home. Not one.

 

The youngest we never sent past Pre K and he was fine the entire time there.

 

There are so many variables. The environment - bright lights, loud noise, etc - had a lot to do with our kids basic incompatibility with a ps classroom.

 

Maybe she's given up - I don't know. All I know is that we figured the buck stopped with us and we found a solution that works for us and ours.

 

Sad situation.

 

I am sorry about your son.

 

I've never heard of the idea that a meltdown is similar to a seizure. Seizures can cause brain damage and death. Do meltdowns get this bad? :confused:

[Murphy101]

Kid had a weapon and threatened bodily harm to others. Better he was sprayed with pepper spray then shot with a taser or a handgun.

 

I used to work with kids with emotional/mental problems. Very young kids can be very violent and strong. If he had a dagger-like implement and was wielding it, I have to say, in my honest opinion, pepper spray was probably the best option. As the article mentions, trying to physically subdue him could increase his risk of injury.

 

I know he's young. I know it sounds unfair. I know people could be appalled at the idea of pepper spraying a kid. But some kids just. won't. quit. and can be extremely dangerous to themselves and others.

 

Tara

 

:iagree: with all the above.

 

I don't see where an intervention wasn't attempted by staff. Not everything works with everyone.

 

I do think that expecting staff to risk their lives is a bit much. And it sounds like this kiddo was violent enough that it was a serious consideration.

 

 

:iagree: In fact, I'd be furious if my child were in that classroom and that isn't what they did. It immediately put a stop to the problem without risking more than temporary discomfort to the aggressor.

 

I'm betting the kid doesn't have issues elsewhere bc he gets exactly what he wants from mom and babysitters.

 

Given that it was the THIRD time the police had been called on that boy, I'm thinking they knew from past experience just how violent he could be and had decided not to risk their skin unnecessarily again.

[pdalley]

I am sorry about your son.

 

I've never heard of the idea that a meltdown is similar to a seizure. Seizures can cause brain damage and death. Do meltdowns get this bad? :confused:

 

 

He doesn't have an actual seizure. We had EKG's done and an MRI just to rule that out. But like what goes on in a seizure he does not know what is going on during the episode - he is merely reacting. After its over he knows something has happened and he's caused it. And he felt horrible about it.

 

FWIW he is on a very small amount of Risperdal 2X a day. It seems to give him a minute before he goes from zero to sixty. He was on it then also. I think a lot of his school issues were due to the environment and to be fair there's not a whole lot public school can do about that end of it. We use medications if their quality of life is affected. My youngest can't tolerate anything right now and he doesn't need them. My middle needs help with anxiety and Oldest needs the Risperdal for the 'rages'. (I don't like calling them that because he's more overwhelmed than mad to my eyes)

 

The older he gets the better it gets. Truly. I think mine just mature at a slower rate than average and that includes their central nervous systems.

[mamajudy]

I think its ridiculous that part of a teacher's job should be to try and disarm a child with a dagger who is threatening to kill. :001_huh: There should be no bad talk about them if each and every time they lock themselves and other students in a closet and call the police. My brother, my sister and my sis-in-law are all teachers and I would want them to be safe and let the police handle an out of control student.

:iagree:The teacher's job is to teach. It's a wonder anyone learns anything at all in these public schools, with this kind of nonsense going on.

 

The pepper spray may have saved the kid's life, if he learns a lesson from it. Next time it just may be a gun. Unfortunately, because of the mother's response, he may only learn that he can get away with anything and suffer no consequences.

[unsinkable]

He doesn't have an actual seizure. We had EKG's done and an MRI just to rule that out. But like what goes on in a seizure he does not know what is going on during the episode - he is merely reacting. After its over he knows something has happened and he's caused it. And he felt horrible about it.

 

FWIW he is on a very small amount of Risperdal 2X a day. It seems to give him a minute before he goes from zero to sixty. He was on it then also. I think a lot of his school issues were due to the environment and to be fair there's not a whole lot public school can do about that end of it. We use medications if their quality of life is affected. My youngest can't tolerate anything right now and he doesn't need them. My middle needs help with anxiety and Oldest needs the Risperdal for the 'rages'. (I don't like calling them that because he's more overwhelmed than mad to my eyes)

 

The older he gets the better it gets. Truly. I think mine just mature at a slower rate than average and that includes their central nervous systems.

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm sorry you and your kids are going thru so much!

[DianeW88]

At the point that the child was holding a weapon and making threats to others in the room, and was not able to be restrained without possible bodily harm to either himself or others.....they chose the best course of action. Can you imagine the terror of the other eight year olds who witnessed this child's rage? The school needed to get this child under control and that's what they did.

[Crispa]

I ran across this blog post, and it made me think of this child. So much went wrong even before it got to this point; many adults failed this child (why was he so angry, repeatedly, in the first place? why were those problems not addressed?), so the child was punished.

 

Anyway, this blog post could be for anybody who has ever faced a raging child and wondered, "What IS going on in that child's head? (And what should I do?)"

 

http://hypnosaka.blogspot.com/2010/09/we-dont-need-to-escalate-12-steps-to.html

 

(I especially like point #10, but of course the whole thing is worthwhile.)

[pdalley]

:grouphug:

 

I'm sorry you and your kids are going thru so much!

 

Thanks but it really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. :)

 

We're sorta used to it. I get the 'oh it must be so stressful to homeschool'. Not compared to the blood pressure spike when the caller ID showed the local school was calling.

 

And we are blessed - the older they get the easier things get. We might have backed into homeschooling but it really has been the best thing for all of them.

[Lovin Learnin]

I saw the mom and son on Good Morning America yesterday. Mom mentioned that he NEVER has behavior/rage issues outside of school. My first thought was environmental allergies. Maybe this poor kid is reacting to something in the paint, or carpet or cleaning supplies. I don't know but he sounded very sweet and controlled on TV and if I were his mom and what she says is true I would be looking for reasons why. I have mixed feelings about the pepper spray.

[clarkacademy]

Coming from a mom who had a little boy in special ed ps at one time long ago..I hate to say this I really do and I know in my mommy heart it sounds hateful so please forgive me. I can see it. There was a student who threw a chair at a teacher and grabbed a younger kid before they could get him off he severly bit that child. Move on to my very quiet unto himself child, Damie came home numerous times with huge bite marks on all different parts of his body. (I was a young mom who was overwhelmed don't judge me for letting him go back to the only choice I knew). This kid was horrible in every way possible and instead of words action should have been taken and it wasn't. Nothing was helping at all and finally I lost control of myself. I waited outside the school cause I knew he walked with his mom, I cornered them on the corner off of school property I made it clear in a very cruel way if he ever touched my son even looked at him again I would have such horrible things done to him he would wish he was dead. The mother said see I told you that you were gonna pi$$ off some overbearing sissy momma you did it now. I turned to her and said it was her fault she was doing nothing to control her child and innocents were getting harmed. I made it clear besides legal action I was coming after her too if he touched my baby again and the things I would do to her would make her mother scream in fright at the site of her. Again i was young and I was so overwhelmed with a new baby a disabled child and two other kids, going to college full time and trying to work weekends. I was also a single mom so I am sure that added to it. That kid never touched Damie again never even spoke to him. All the talking it out and behavior techniques didn't stop that kid from being that way to others but after I put the fear of God into him he never touched my baby again. I have been around kids like this for years now and besides the emotional isues they have if they have no family support they can turn into horrible horrible monsters. I didn't discipline him the right way I bullied him but sadly that is what he understood and responded too. I feel bad for all the other kids but my boy was safe. These kids can be deadly I would have pepper sprayed him to halt him. PS would be a better place if control was taken back. I am not saying great place just a better place. Control has been lost and I am happy officers stood up to make a point. I can't see any child hurt it breaks my heart but these are the kids who are going to grow up do we want them driving cars? Having children of their own?

[MamaSheep]

He doesn't have an actual seizure. We had EKG's done and an MRI just to rule that out. But like what goes on in a seizure he does not know what is going on during the episode - he is merely reacting. After its over he knows something has happened and he's caused it. And he felt horrible about it.

 

FWIW he is on a very small amount of Risperdal 2X a day. It seems to give him a minute before he goes from zero to sixty. He was on it then also. I think a lot of his school issues were due to the environment and to be fair there's not a whole lot public school can do about that end of it. We use medications if their quality of life is affected. My youngest can't tolerate anything right now and he doesn't need them. My middle needs help with anxiety and Oldest needs the Risperdal for the 'rages'. (I don't like calling them that because he's more overwhelmed than mad to my eyes)

 

The older he gets the better it gets. Truly. I think mine just mature at a slower rate than average and that includes their central nervous systems.

 

I know what you mean. I like the term "meltdown" better than "rage" because I agree, it's not about anger, it's more of an extreme fight or flight reaction.

 

Here's (more or less) how it has been explained to me by some nice people who are doing research on autistic brain function: When there is too much for the nervous system to process the brain perceives it as a threat, the amygdala kicks in big time, and brain function slows way down in the brain centers that handle things like the perception of time, weighing options and making choices, etc. The higher-level functions of the brain literally shut down, and the more primitive part of the brain goes into overdrive. That's the part of the brain that deals with emotion and very basic needs, like safety, food, and sleep. The brain of a person in that mode is literally not able to process things like right and wrong, choices between options, the passage of time, reasoning skills, or even language (they may speak and appear to hear what you are saying to them, but it doesn't 'process' properly; it's more of a verbal method of fighting or trying to get away than it is a mode of communication in that moment). The amygdala is in survival mode and fighting for its life against whatever threats it might perceive, and it takes the body along with it. In its more rational levels it can perceive two roles--friend and foe (and sometimes "friend" doesn't register). There is no 'parent' or 'teacher' or 'policeman' or 'classmate', there is only ally or enemy.

 

This is not a choice the person makes, it is an involuntary reaction to extreme danger, as translated by a primitive part of the brain based on what is going on in the nervous system. It's a reflex reaction in the nervous system. When that certain spot on your knee is whacked too hard your leg jumps. When that certain spot in your brain is whacked too hard, survival mode kicks in. Also, it can become conditioned so that when the person is in the same circumstance that was a problem before, the brain sees the 'cues' and responds to the 'danger' more quickly the next time. This is a GOOD thing if you live in the jungle and you need to be wary of snakes and tigers, but it doesn't translate well into the public school environment where the 'threats' are teachers and other students.

 

When a person is in that mode, there's not a lot you can do other than keep everyone safe and wait it out. Give the person some space, move slowly, speak soothingly--or better yet, don't speak. The amygdala needs to be convinced that it's safe to come out now. And when that happens, it's almost like a switch getting flipped. The amygdala powers down, electrical activity increases in the more 'advanced' portions of the brain, and consciousness returns. Suddenly the person is rational again, and usually remorseful, even though whatever just happened is all a blur and he probably doesn't remember specific details. Emotional memory is processed in the amygdala, but visual memory, auditory memory, and the kind of memory that deals with sequence in time have been non-functional, so he might 'feel' that something horrible has happened, but generally will not 'know' what happened, who was there, who said what, what he said, what he did--all of that is fog. I have been told by my researcher acquaintance that at present it is not really understood why this reaction is so much more sensitive in some people than in others, but it is definitely a 'real' thing that happens, and it can be observed in the brain using sensors.

 

The thing is, there are always indications that the brain is nearing the point where it might get thrown into this state of function. Sometimes they are more subtle, and sometimes they are more obvious, but if you can learn to SEE them, and what to do about it, you can prevent the 'meltdown' from ever happening. People with an oversensitive fight/flight response can learn to 'feel' the build-up as it happens and can learn steps to take to calm their system before it reaches that point. But as children, those self-regulation skills haven't been developed yet and they need the adults in their lives to help them stay regulated and learn the coping skills they need.

 

Unfortunately, what often happens instead is that the adults in their lives label them as "angry" and "violent" and "behaviorally disordered". They tell them they are bad, bad children with evil desires to hurt other people. They take these kids--who don't understand what is happening inside them, who can't control it no matter how hard they try, who feel overwhelming guilt when it's all over and genuinely WANT to be different--and they use shame and intimidation to 'control' their 'aggressive' behavior. Now, for some kinds of behavior issues, an understanding that misdeeds are shameful and a strong assertion of authority by an adult can work wonders. But if you're dealing with a child with the kind of nervous system issues I've just described, shame and intimidation will just exacerbate the problem. It frightens and confuses the child and pushes the child closer to that edge where the amygdala says, "Enough already--quit being afraid and confront the threat! Rational smashional." What the child needs is a calming protector who can help them feel safe, and teach them what to do when they feel that panic starting to buzz in their brains. What the child too frequently gets instead is a large, angry, agressive adult towering over them and saying frightening things to them.

 

Obviously I don't know the kid in the video or anyone else in the situation. I have no idea WHAT that specific boys issues are. And I haven't read the whole thread. But some of the things that were said on the video seemed to me like indicators that this could be what was going on for this boy. IF that is the case, then the school handled this situation very poorly. They evidently observed that he was agitated on the bus, and continued to be so during and after breakfast, yet they did nothing about it. They sent him to his classroom with an already overexcited nervous system and then made further demands on him without giving him a chance to calm down, or any assistance in doing so. IF this child has this oversensitive fight/flight thing going on, that is just setting him up to snap. I noticed on the video that he couldn't come up with something specific about why he behaved that way, other than they just kept telling him to do things when he wanted to do something else. This is a pretty typical way for a child on the edge of that sort of neurological reaction to remember the situation. No specifics, just "they kept coming" and "I wanted to be elsewhere". When asked if he wanted to hurt his teachers, he said that yeah he kinda did. A child in that sort of meltdown mode would probably have a vague memory of wanting to defeat the threat, to hurt the perceived aggressor. He also said he regretted having acted that way. IF this is what's going on, he probably does.

 

By the time it got to police and pepper spray stage, that might have actually been the best option. But the adults in this scenario escalated the stress when they could VERY likely have prevented the situation in the first place. No, the boy's behavior was not ok. Yes, the teachers and other students needed to be protected. But the adults in this scenario really dropped the ball IMO, for things to get to that point in the first place.

 

As a mother who has had to deal with this kind of thing (and yes, it really can be much worse at school than in any other setting--remember that 'conditioning'? School can become hardwired as an automatic threat) it is probably not as clear-cut as you might think. Please, everybody, don't jump to judgments too quickly.

Edited April 8, 2011 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

I ran across this blog post, and it made me think of this child. So much went wrong even before it got to this point; many adults failed this child (why was he so angry, repeatedly, in the first place? why were those problems not addressed?), so the child was punished.

 

Anyway, this blog post could be for anybody who has ever faced a raging child and wondered, "What IS going on in that child's head? (And what should I do?)"

 

http://hypnosaka.blogspot.com/2010/09/we-dont-need-to-escalate-12-steps-to.html

 

(I especially like point #10, but of course the whole thing is worthwhile.)

 

This is an EXCELLENT blog post. I think this should be standard training for anyone who works with children in an "official" capacity.