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I have to have two wisdom teeth pulled. Well actually, they are going to pull three. Apparently this isn't like last time I had a wisdom tooth pulled where I just went in to the office and had the tooth pulled. It's "oral surgery" and I'll be given iv sedation, after a consultation.

 

I'm nursing a baby. I had two medical professionals tell me today to "just pump" for 24 hours. Just pump. Really? It's that easy? Am I the only breastfeeding mother that doesn't have a pump? Will my baby that's never seen a bottle even be willing to take a bottle?

 

Then my mother asks me, "Why don't you just give him formula?" Sigh.

 

My husband says, "Can't we just give him solid food for a day?" Yes dear, I'm sure that will go over well with the baby. You let me know how well that works out for YOU at 4 AM.

 

The dentist said to me, "Are you sure your not pregnant right now? I see you have a bit of a tummy." Thank you Mr. Dentist. I wasn't disturbed enough about not having all my baby weight off after 7 months. I needed to hear that.

 

So I guess I need to call the hospital and see about renting a pump for 2 days, in addition to the expense of the surgery.

 

Somedays, I really hate people.

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Can you not put it off for a few more months? My dentist wants to pull mine, but the last time I went I was still nursing and I told him it wasn't even an option until I was done. Honestly, I'm leaning towards not having them out at all. They don't bother me, but they sure do bother him!

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Uh, NO! That's just not acceptable! And, oh my, what a jerk that dentist is!!!

 

What rationale did they give for the IV sedation? Have you looked at kellymom? I'm sure there is a bf friendly alternative. Even if it is necessary, at seven months, I doubt pumping for 24 hours is required. Before you do anything, find out exactly what they want to give you, research it from Medications and Mother's Milk or kellymom, and then talk to them again. It's not fair to you or your baby to insist on pumping for 24 hrs. http://www.kellymom.com/health/illness/dentalwork.html

 

Basically, it is safe to nurse as soon as you are alert enough to not drop the baby!

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If you are going to talk to the lactation nurse at your hospital to get a pump, you might ask her about how long days/hours you should pump and dump. I found that doctors were not informed on this topic.

 

I agree. I doubt they taught much about breastfeeding in dental school. Make sure you actually need to pump for 24 hours.

I hope you gave him your best mean face after that comment! :grouphug:

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Can you not put it off for a few more months?

 

No. There's a cavity in the one tooth. The nerve is now exposed. I've been living on Tylenol and Motrin for two weeks now. Today I even stole some of the Little Teether's we bought for the baby.

 

I would have had it pulled sooner, but I've been either pregnant or nursing for 4 years now.

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The dentist said to me, "Are you sure your not pregnant right now? I see you have a bit of a tummy."

:blink::blink::blink: Wow, I am stunned by that!!!

 

 

I agree though about getting advice from the lactation consultant about what is really necessary with the drugs they will be using.

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What rationale did they give for the IV sedation? Have you looked at kellymom? I'm sure there is a bf friendly alternative. Even if it is necessary, at seven months, I doubt pumping for 24 hours is required. Before you do anything, find out exactly what they want to give you, research it from Medications and Mother's Milk or kellymom, and then talk to them again. It's not fair to you or your baby to insist on pumping for 24 hrs. http://www.kellymom.com/health/illness/dentalwork.html

 

Basically, it is safe to nurse as soon as you are alert enough to not drop the baby!

 

I don't know about that yet. I only got to talk to the receptionist. I have a consultation with the Dr. on the 29th. I was wondering the same thing. With my previous tooth I just got a shot of Novocaine.

 

The woman I spoke with at the oral surgeon's office, and someone at my Ped both said to pump for 24 hours. I won't know until the 29th what they are planning to give me.

 

I knew posting this here was a good idea. I just knew someone here would have good information for me. Thank you all so much!

 

I'm still miffed at everyone I talked to today (outside of this forum) though.

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If you cannot put it off and you must be sedated via iv sedation, then I would suggest manually pumping. I had more success with that than with a mechanical pump. I think breastfeeding.com or kellymom have a video of the marmet technique. Try manually pumping one side while feeding the baby on the other side. That helps with let-down. If baby won't take a bottle, you might have dh try a medicine syringe or a cup. Seven months is plenty old enough to drink from a cup, therefore I wouldn't bother trying a bottle (you don't want to introduce nipple confusion at this point).

 

You might also check Dr. Jack Newman's website. The receptionist may just be using CYA, it may not be actual medical necessity.

 

It won't be easy, but you will make it through this. :grouphug:

Edited by Mrs Mungo
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Can you not put it off for a few more months? My dentist wants to pull mine, but the last time I went I was still nursing and I told him it wasn't even an option until I was done. Honestly, I'm leaning towards not having them out at all. They don't bother me, but they sure do bother him!

When I had my wisdom teeth out--surgical removal with sedation (don't know what kind, but they put me out--I was having headaches every day for 2 weeks straight, and it didn't let up until I had the teeth removed. I wasn't nursing then, but I'm sure glad I didn't wait longer.

 

What rationale did they give for the IV sedation?

Mine was necessary because the teeth weren't going to be pulled...the teeth were sideways and needed to be cut out [ETA the teeth had not come through the gums either, so needed to be cut out], and the roots were in a position that it could cause nerve damage, so pulling (or not putting me out) was not an option.

 

How soon do you need to have this done? I would practice with a bottle every day as soon as you can. I have used a hospital-rented pump and I really liked it. I've also used a home-model double electric pump, and that was ok. My favorite was the Avent Isis manual pump with the silicone cushion thingy. It worked better than the home electric pump. I think the hospital pump (a Medela) did as well or better, but I think the Avent was more comfortable.

Edited by gardening momma
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Also, honestly, go by the lactation consultant and not the pediatrician's office. I've been surprised at how little many peds know about breastfeeding, especially in terms of medications and safety.

 

There's also the option of just not telling the dentist what you're going to do with your baby. I mean, I wouldn't do that unless I was personally satisfied as to the safety of it, but a lot of times they a) dont know what the Hale says in Medication in Mother's Milk, b) are a bit too lazy to change what they usually do, and c) believe it's better to cover their butts by saying, "Just don't nurse."

 

Especially since she's not a little premature infant, I think you would be fine. Don't forget, babies are given these meds themselves directly, in which case they get far more of a dosage than they would via milk after you are awake enough to be conscious. (And if you're conscious, doesn't that indicate that the medication is mostly out of your system?)

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Also, honestly, go by the lactation consultant and not the pediatrician's office. I've been surprised at how little many peds know about breastfeeding, especially in terms of medications and safety.

 

There's also the option of just not telling the dentist what you're going to do with your baby. I mean, I wouldn't do that unless I was personally satisfied as to the safety of it, but a lot of times they a) dont know what the Hale says in Medication in Mother's Milk, b) are a bit too lazy to change what they usually do, and c) believe it's better to cover their butts by saying, "Just don't nurse."

 

I meant Thomas Hale's site, not Jack Newman, that was sick-brain talking, sorry. And :iagree: with the above.

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Also, honestly, go by the lactation consultant and not the pediatrician's office. I've been surprised at how little many peds know about breastfeeding, especially in terms of medications and safety.

 

There's also the option of just not telling the dentist what you're going to do with your baby. I mean, I wouldn't do that unless I was personally satisfied as to the safety of it, but a lot of times they a) dont know what the Hale says in Medication in Mother's Milk, b) are a bit too lazy to change what they usually do, and c) believe it's better to cover their butts by saying, "Just don't nurse."

 

Especially since she's not a little premature infant, I think you would be fine. Don't forget, babies are given these meds themselves directly, in which case they get far more of a dosage than they would via milk after you are awake enough to be conscious. (And if you're conscious, doesn't that indicate that the medication is mostly out of your system?)

 

I would also ask someone who is more familiar with breastfeeding safety (and if you know the medications, then you can check the databases like LactMed). I know with my emergency pulling of my first wisdom tooth, my dentist's office actually called my midwives' office to ask them what painkillers would be safe for BFing, as they didn't know. When the three were pulled later, they prescribed similar stuff (although I only needed the ibuprofen).

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If you can't get ahold of the LC at the hospital you can always try your local La Leche League. Many leaders have a copy of Medications and Mother's Milk and can give you that information. Hale also has a hotline open during business hours for information: http://www.infantrisk.org/

 

It will be important to know what specific medications they're planning to use, what they might prescribe for you to use after for pain, and the doses. They should be able to tell you that at the consultation, and if they say they can't, find out WHEN they can (and sometimes it's "helpful" to give a deadline: "I'd like a phone call back with the medication information by the end of the day tomorrow - will you be able to do that?").

 

I wouldn't involve the dentist with your breastfeeding decisions - all you need from him is the medication information.

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Make sure you actually need to pump for 24 hours.

 

:iagree: I was told to pump and dump for 48 hours when I needed contrast dye due to symptoms of a blood clot. I found later that I could have resumed nursing sooner than that. :glare: I am so, so thankful that my less-than-a-week-old baby had no problems switching back to the breast after using a bottle for two days. I used the breastbottle by Adri.

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I think it may not be as bad as you're thinking. From my experience, pump with an Avent pump and give have someone else give the baby a bottle. If they won't take a bottle, use a syringe or try one of those medicine things with a bulb?? at the top or even a cup cut down (like a tupperware kid's cup) or some things like this :) I pumped from the time both of my babies were first born... and only fed breast milk. Also, at 8 months, to get some sleep... I got some rice milk for during the night for my husband to feed. One night or day of rice milk doesn't mess things up....

Good Luck!

:)

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Guest mrsjamiesouth

I had wisdom teeth out while nursing. The oral surgeon was wonderful and gave me shots instead of IV so I could nurse right after. Maybe you should insist on something different.

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Just pump. Really? It's that easy? Am I the only breastfeeding mother that doesn't have a pump?

 

I can understand the dentist saying that. Truthfully, I was surprised when you said you didn't have a pump. I bf. Most of my friends bf. I don't know anyone that bf, including my friends from LLL, that DIDN'T have a pump. Pumps ranged from smaller manual ones to large medela pumps. And most of us had the pumps before we had the babies, so it wasn't like "oh I have a conflict, I need to get a pump." Most had them on their gift registry. So yes, to me it's very surprising you don't already have a pump.

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No, you are not the only bf mom who doesn't (didn't) have a pump! Neither of my dds took bottles so I never pumped.

 

Which wisdom tooth is it? Both of my upper ones had come in when they were pulled, with just novacain. I seem to recall that the uppers are easier to pull then the lowers if the have erupted on their own.

 

:grouphug:

 

Mary

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I never had a pump until my last one when I had SO much milk, I pumped some to donate. But, I never needed a pump for my first three.

 

Also, honestly, go by the lactation consultant and not the pediatrician's office. I've been surprised at how little many peds know about breastfeeding, especially in terms of medications and safety.

 

There's also the option of just not telling the dentist what you're going to do with your baby. I mean, I wouldn't do that unless I was personally satisfied as to the safety of it, but a lot of times they a) dont know what the Hale says in Medication in Mother's Milk, b) are a bit too lazy to change what they usually do, and c) believe it's better to cover their butts by saying, "Just don't nurse."

 

Especially since she's not a little premature infant, I think you would be fine. Don't forget, babies are given these meds themselves directly, in which case they get far more of a dosage than they would via milk after you are awake enough to be conscious. (And if you're conscious, doesn't that indicate that the medication is mostly out of your system?)

 

If you can't get ahold of the LC at the hospital you can always try your local La Leche League. Many leaders have a copy of Medications and Mother's Milk and can give you that information. Hale also has a hotline open during business hours for information: http://www.infantrisk.org/

 

It will be important to know what specific medications they're planning to use, what they might prescribe for you to use after for pain, and the doses. They should be able to tell you that at the consultation, and if they say they can't, find out WHEN they can (and sometimes it's "helpful" to give a deadline: "I'd like a phone call back with the medication information by the end of the day tomorrow - will you be able to do that?").

 

I wouldn't involve the dentist with your breastfeeding decisions - all you need from him is the medication information.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: with both of these posters. Please do ask the LC about the medications. I bet you won't need to pump at all. Or, if they do happen to give you a medication that isn't safe, there is usually an alternative.

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Also, honestly, go by the lactation consultant and not the pediatrician's office. I've been surprised at how little many peds know about breastfeeding, especially in terms of medications and safety.

 

There's also the option of just not telling the dentist what you're going to do with your baby. I mean, I wouldn't do that unless I was personally satisfied as to the safety of it, but a lot of times they a) dont know what the Hale says in Medication in Mother's Milk, b) are a bit too lazy to change what they usually do, and c) believe it's better to cover their butts by saying, "Just don't nurse."

 

Especially since she's not a little premature infant, I think you would be fine. Don't forget, babies are given these meds themselves directly, in which case they get far more of a dosage than they would via milk after you are awake enough to be conscious. (And if you're conscious, doesn't that indicate that the medication is mostly out of your system?)

 

:iagree:

 

There's no advantage, and lots of potential disadvantage, to a doctor/pharmacist/drug company telling you that it's okay to nurse on a certain drug. So they'll stay on the safe side. No one ever got sued for telling someone to pump and dump, you know?

 

I was recently prescribed an albuterol inhaler, and both the package warning sticker and the pharmacist said that I needed to decide whether to stop nursing my toddler or stop using the drug. :confused: They give albuterol directly to babies. According to Hale's it's perfectly safe.

 

If you wind up pumping for some period of time, a 7mo baby is probably old enough to try a sippy cup with a soft spout. That might go better than bottles.

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I have to have two wisdom teeth pulled. Well actually, they are going to pull three. Apparently this isn't like last time I had a wisdom tooth pulled where I just went in to the office and had the tooth pulled. It's "oral surgery" and I'll be given iv sedation, after a consultation.

 

I'm nursing a baby. I had two medical professionals tell me today to "just pump" for 24 hours. Just pump. Really? It's that easy? Am I the only breastfeeding mother that doesn't have a pump? Will my baby that's never seen a bottle even be willing to take a bottle?

 

Then my mother asks me, "Why don't you just give him formula?" Sigh.

 

My husband says, "Can't we just give him solid food for a day?" Yes dear, I'm sure that will go over well with the baby. You let me know how well that works out for YOU at 4 AM.

 

The dentist said to me, "Are you sure your not pregnant right now? I see you have a bit of a tummy." Thank you Mr. Dentist. I wasn't disturbed enough about not having all my baby weight off after 7 months. I needed to hear that.

 

So I guess I need to call the hospital and see about renting a pump for 2 days, in addition to the expense of the surgery.

 

Somedays, I really hate people.

 

Dawn,

 

:grouphug:

 

Ugh! That is awful!

 

None of my 3 ever got a bottle of breastmilk or any kind of formula. We didn't even own any bottles. And I didn't have a pump with my first 2. The LC in the hospital gave me a small hand pump with #3 b/c I told her the first 2 had problems with my Niagara Falls letdown. :lol:

 

You got some great advice! I just want to add my prayers/good thoughts that everything works out. I am so sorry about your tooth and the pain you're in! I hope you get some relief! :grouphug:

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Why is he knocking you out? I had three wisdom teeth pulled at once under local anesthesia and nursed as soon as I was done.

Ditto. Seriously, there are only SOME cases that call for the NEED of sedation. I had one of mine pulled with only a topical (could not afford the shots).

 

You also should find out from an OB or pharmacist if you can still nurse with what they want to give you. You would be amazed at how often medical personnel will just tell you to "pump and dump" because they are ignorant of and too lazy to look up what drugs are safe and what drugs are not. It's easier for them to do whatever they are used to doing and just tell you to fudge off your baby.

Edited by mommaduck
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Why is he knocking you out? I had three wisdom teeth pulled at once under local anesthesia and nursed as soon as I was done.

 

I had 2 pulled under a local. DH had 2 pulled also local. Son had all 4 extracted this summer-all under local. We never do the twilight stuff. If they numb you up well then you won't feel any pain at all.

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OK, I'm a LC. Please, please call a local LC. Most meds don't affect the baby (there are of course exceptions). I bf 7 kids without a pump.. Two words~hand expression. I hope all goes well.

Hand expression doesn't work for everyone all the time. There were some babies where I could and others where only a pump could get it out...and it was painful attempting.

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Just a bit of encouragement, I had an emergency appendectomy 5 weeks after my son was born. He had never had a bottle. DH had to give him formula that night. Ok, maybe I'm not so encouraging come to think of it. Ds threw up all the formula and wouldn't take more. Since I was in the hospital, they loaned me a pump for the day and checked out all the drugs, what I could and couldn't nurse with. I only had to go 12 hours without nursing. I had to pump a couple of times to get rid of the milk, then ds went right back to nursing. I'm sure it was worse for DH than me, because while I was sleeping in the hospital he had a hungry baby at home. Really though, it was short and worked out pretty easily. I declined any meds but tylenol after surgery and left the hospital about 15 hours after I got to the ER and had already nursed before we left.

 

You'll make it and so will the baby.

:grouphug:

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Also, honestly, go by the lactation consultant and not the pediatrician's office. I've been surprised at how little many peds know about breastfeeding, especially in terms of medications and safety.

 

 

 

:iagree: Exactly. The easy answer is pump and dump. It actually takes work to walk 5 feet and look up the half-life of the medication in the Thomas Hale book. (heavy sarcasm in case you didn't notice.) Most healthcare providers cannot be bothered to find out the real scoop on medications and breastfeeding and go with their pat answer.

 

Okay - rant over.

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Then my mother asks me, "Why don't you just give him formula?" Sigh.

 

My husband says, "Can't we just give him solid food for a day?" Yes dear, I'm sure that will go over well with the baby. You let me know how well that works out for YOU at 4 AM.

 

The dentist said to me, "Are you sure your not pregnant right now? I see you have a bit of a tummy." Thank you Mr. Dentist. I wasn't disturbed enough about not having all my baby weight off after 7 months. I needed to hear that.

 

 

 

Sometimes people just don't get it, do they? And if you deliver a stinging comeback, they act like you're the crazy one.

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Can you not put it off for a few more months? My dentist wants to pull mine, but the last time I went I was still nursing and I told him it wasn't even an option until I was done. Honestly, I'm leaning towards not having them out at all. They don't bother me, but they sure do bother him!

 

This is what I was going to say! I was supposed to have mine out 10 years ago... I would think you could wait a few months unless they are bothering you a lot right now. That dentist sounds awful by the way.

 

:grouphug:

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I have to have two wisdom teeth pulled. Well actually, they are going to pull three. Apparently this isn't like last time I had a wisdom tooth pulled where I just went in to the office and had the tooth pulled. It's "oral surgery" and I'll be given iv sedation, after a consultation.

 

I'm nursing a baby. I had two medical professionals tell me today to "just pump" for 24 hours. Just pump. Really? It's that easy? Am I the only breastfeeding mother that doesn't have a pump? Will my baby that's never seen a bottle even be willing to take a bottle?

 

Then my mother asks me, "Why don't you just give him formula?" Sigh.

 

My husband says, "Can't we just give him solid food for a day?" Yes dear, I'm sure that will go over well with the baby. You let me know how well that works out for YOU at 4 AM.

 

The dentist said to me, "Are you sure your not pregnant right now? I see you have a bit of a tummy." Thank you Mr. Dentist. I wasn't disturbed enough about not having all my baby weight off after 7 months. I needed to hear that.

 

So I guess I need to call the hospital and see about renting a pump for 2 days, in addition to the expense of the surgery.

 

Somedays, I really hate people.

 

I don't have a pump....my baby will not take a bottle, and I probably would have lost my Holy Ghost on that dentist!

 

BTW, I still have my wisdom teeth because of the same reasons....been nursing or pregnant since 2006. Not making a judgment call, mine can wait, maybe yours cannot. Sorry you are having trouble, just know...I feel ya!

:grouphug:

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I am so ticked off for you. People (even medical doctors) don't seem to understand very much about breastfeeding most of the time. I exclusively bf'ed both of my babies all the way up to a year (and long after that in addition to food). Neither of them wanted solids before a year. They never had bottles (neither with formula nor breastmilk in them). Therefore, I never had a need to pump. Plus, you never get nearly as much milk with pumping as the baby actually gets when nursing straight from the breast. It is definitely not as simple as "just pumping." It actually caused me a lot of anxiety when worrying about if something happened to me where I needed to be in the hospital, I feared that baby would not eat since she'd never taken a bottle. No advice, but I just wanted to tell you that I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from. But I think that you will probably NOT have to pump and dump, from what I understand about dental surgery.

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I'd just get the one tooth with the exposed nerve done with a local and wait for the rest. It does not have to be an all or nothing situation.

 

I never pump, hand or mechanical, and exclusively breastfeed. 16 years of breastfeeding and haven't come across a situation worth using one of those torture devices for yet.

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What will they be using to sedate you? Pumping might not be necessary. The hospital had no problems with me nursing my newborn ds immediately after surgery 10yrs ago. I believe they used sodium pentathol to sedate me. This is what I requested anyway when the anathesiologist (sp) asked.

 

Eta: breast pumps never worked for me. I was lucky to get a half ounce after 30 min of pumping and tried both manual and electric styles. My breasts just didn't want to give it up unless it was to a living babes mouth.

Edited by akmommy
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I didn't read all the replies, so this might be a repeat. I had wisdom teeth pulled when my dd was 6 weeks. IV sedation. The oral surgeon freaked out about it. I called the pediatrician and a lactation consultant with the names of the meds. They suggested I pump and dump the first time back home, but said I could nurse after that. Even though I kept taking percoset for several days.

 

I will say I was out of it and dh would come in, help me get situated to nurse, take baby out, I went back to sleep.

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I didn't read all of the replies so I'm sure this is a repeat:

 

Check with Dr. Hale's book/website about how long you have to pump and dump, or if you even have to pump at all. It may also be a different recommendation depending on the age of your nursling.

 

Consider having them pulled with a local only. I had 4 impacted wisdom teeth pulled with nitrous and local only when I was 18. I told them "you better take them all at once because I probably won't come back for the other two". They told me the insurance wouldn't cover "oral surgery" which they defined as using sedation so we did it without the sedation so insurance would cover it. Insurance still didn't cover it.

 

It wasn't a pleasant experience. It scared the heck out of me (I'm fearful of dentists anyway) and the local wore off but the dentist didn't believe me until I started screaming, but we got it done....after he finally gave me more local.

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It wasn't a pleasant experience. It scared the heck out of me (I'm fearful of dentists anyway) and the local wore off but the dentist didn't believe me until I started screaming, but we got it done....after he finally gave me more local.

 

 

OK, I did NOT need to read that!

 

I called the oral surgeon's office back. I want to say that his receptionist is a total witch. Turns out, they don't accept my insurance.

 

I called the dentist back, and got a referral to a different oral surgeon that accepts all of my insurance coverage. Their receptionist could have been nicer, but wasn't as nearly as mean as the first.

 

I have printed out a list of all the safe medications for nursing from Kellymom.com to take with me. (Thank you everyone for that information).

 

I also got my consultation appointment bumped up a week by changing surgeons and expressing how much pain I am in. I've been alternating Tylenol and Motrin and using the baby's Little Teether's medication so that I can function and cope with my noisy, demanding offspring.

 

My husband is going to get shorted some sleep time before work that day, but oh well. He will just have to deal with it.

 

It looks like there is no reason this can't be done without me needing to pump, or inconvenience the baby in any way.

 

Thank you all for the helpful information. I couldn't have done this without you.

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I hope it all works out and soon for you.

 

I had mine done while nursing, cannot remember how old my nursling was to be honest though as it was with #1. I have never used any bottles either. I nursed before I left and as soon as I got home, all told it was just a few hours. My dentist was clueless on the medication as well and I had to research it as well, so frustrating.

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No help here about pump/dump. But, I found that hand expressing (or even pumping) is easier if you are nursing at the same time. I used to use sterilized baby food jars and use one hand to pump on one side while the baby was nursing on the other. I have also used a pump while nursing, too.

 

Pumps just did NOT produce the 'let down' that my baby did. It was impossible to get more than 1/2 oz at a time until I decided to try it. Then I would get 4 oz of good milk for my baby! Try this if you need someone to feed the baby while you are out.

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OK, I did NOT need to read that!

 

I called the oral surgeon's office back. I want to say that his receptionist is a total witch. Turns out, they don't accept my insurance.

 

I called the dentist back, and got a referral to a different oral surgeon that accepts all of my insurance coverage. Their receptionist could have been nicer, but wasn't as nearly as mean as the first.

 

I have printed out a list of all the safe medications for nursing from Kellymom.com to take with me. (Thank you everyone for that information).

 

I also got my consultation appointment bumped up a week by changing surgeons and expressing how much pain I am in. I've been alternating Tylenol and Motrin and using the baby's Little Teether's medication so that I can function and cope with my noisy, demanding offspring.

 

My husband is going to get shorted some sleep time before work that day, but oh well. He will just have to deal with it.

 

It looks like there is no reason this can't be done without me needing to pump, or inconvenience the baby in any way.

 

Thank you all for the helpful information. I couldn't have done this without you.

 

 

excellent!!

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