Why do people homeschool their dc if they don't know the material or care to know it?

[Jean in Newcastle]

I met them at work and they did it to merely to isolate a child from school because of what older sibs did. One was "rewarded" by being allowed go to his senior year in the flesh. I know one is not doing well psychiatrically, in his 20's. Really, these would depress anyone. I don't think any of these boys were "bad", but sibs were.

 

None of these mothers had any interest in homeschooling, just in keeping their kid away from other people the same age. One mother was depressed and drank a fair amount, the other two are bitterbitterbitter. Never a smile or amusing word.

 

None of the boys went on in school, except one who got some training before going to Iraq. He fell apart and had to come home. Mom is having a hard time coping with this. All very sad.

 

But see, Kay, I see this as children being raised in dysfunctional homes. If they had functional loving families that treated the children as individuals then I think even if they got "school in a box" then they would be ok. They might not get the rewarding in-depth education that I personally value, but I think they would be ok.

 

I have really good friends who do "school in a box". It replicates a standard 1950's classroom experience and does a good job at teaching the basics. Personally I think it is boring as anything and does not teach you to think outside the box (get the pun?:D) but educationally it does meet the grade (I'm so punny tonight:lol:).

[KathyBC]

I met them at work and they did it to merely to isolate a child from school because of what older sibs did. One was "rewarded" by being allowed go to his senior year in the flesh. I know one is not doing well psychiatrically, in his 20's. Really, these would depress anyone. I don't think any of these boys were "bad", but sibs were.

 

None of these mothers had any interest in homeschooling, just in keeping their kid away from other people the same age. One mother was depressed and drank a fair amount, the other two are bitterbitterbitter. Never a smile or amusing word.

 

None of the boys went on in school, except one who got some training before going to Iraq. He fell apart and had to come home. Mom is having a hard time coping with this. All very sad.

 

I went through gr. 11 & 12 with a girl in a similar family situation. She was sent to private school in an effort to save her from following her sister's troubled example. Both of her parents were teachers. They knew the material. The problems in their family had nothing to do with whether or not the parents were excited about learning or whether they were plugging the kids into on-line courses (I guess it would have been correspondence back then) or teaching it personally. The problems (in this instance) stemmed at least in part from isolating the kids from everyone, right down to not letting them attend Sunday School or youth group and even keeping them from their cousins - theological differences, don't you know. The fact that both girls were adopted may also have come into play.

 

Both girls had stellar educations. Their life paths are radically different. My friend does not express disappointment in her parents' academic goals, lol. She is a critical care nurse, and doing very well career-wise. Other, weightier, relationship issues were what mattered. And she is still plagued by those.

 

I really think people need to reserve judgement more often, rather than calling others on the carpet for any perceived intellectual sluggishness. A family can still journey together even if it looks different from your family.

 

 

 

 

ETA: Re-reading your experiences, they sound like the parenting in general was a disappointment. Those parents would tend to choose the option that required the least of them, but that doesn't discredit the schooling option.

Edited January 17, 2010 by KathyBC

[Lizzie in Ma]

:iagree:

 

Let's not judge too harshly what you perceive to be happening in other homeschooling households. I've seen so many shades of homeschooling work at different seasons of a family's life. I don't feel like you necessarily need to master all the material your child is learning, especially in the upper levels.

 

I just don't like to make judgments on other homeschooling families in general.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

 

:iagree:, thanks for saying Lisa

 

When my children were young, I taught and I knew it all. As they got older, I taught and had to re-learn some. Now for my 8th grader, whether I know it or not is not the issue. She works independently on classes I have chosen, I schedule and I grade. I mentor and encourage and love and guide her learning but for reasons I will not go into here, she is using BJU dvds for the entire grade level. Something I always disparaged and said I would NEVER use.

 

There are indeed seasons to homeschooling.

What works now may not work next year for untold reasons.

What one kid thrived on the next kid may be unable to work with. (prepositional ending, I know, sorry)

The joys of schooling one or two when they are young are not the same joys involved with teaching the older ones. They are unique to each child and each family.

 

There will always be people who are lazy. Homeschooling or not.

I believe that the vast majority of people who make a choice to homeschool their children have the absolute best intentions and that no matter what their homeschool looks like, in comparison to yours, you have no right to judge them.

 

As a community we should be always looking to see where we can help and support one another. There are a multitude of opportunities daily on this board to uplift and guide new homeschoolers and old.

 

I may shake my head sometimes when I see a post that looks a little nuts to me, but I am not that person, their kids are not mine and their school is not mine. It is not mine to judge here rather, it is to help when I can and refrain from speaking if I have nothing nice to say.

[KathyBC]

:iagree:, thanks for saying Lisa

 

When my children were young, I taught and I knew it all. As they got older, I taught and had to re-learn some. Now for my 8th grader, whether I know it or not is not the issue. She works independently on classes I have chosen, I schedule and I grade. I mentor and encourage and love and guide her learning but for reasons I will not go into here, she is using BJU dvds for the entire grade level. Something I always disparaged and said I would NEVER use.

 

There are indeed seasons to homeschooling.

What works now may not work next year for untold reasons.

What one kid thrived on the next kid may be unable to work with. (prepositional ending, I know, sorry)

The joys of schooling one or two when they are young are not the same joys involved with teaching the older ones. They are unique to each child and each family.

 

There will always be people who are lazy. Homeschooling or not.

I believe that the vast majority of people who make a choice to homeschool their children have the absolute best intentions and that no matter what their homeschool looks like, in comparison to yours, you have no right to judge them.

 

As a community we should be always looking to see where we can help and support one another. There are a multitude of opportunities daily on this board to uplift and guide new homeschoolers and old.

 

I may shake my head sometimes when I see a post that looks a little nuts to me, but I am not that person, their kids are not mine and their school is not mine. It is not mine to judge here rather, it is to help when I can and refrain from speaking if I have nothing nice to say.

 

Great post. I can't think of a single homeschooling book I read that didn't point out that our ultimate goal with our kids was to work our way to the sidelines, becoming a coach and mentor, encouraging them to own their own education.

[Ester Maria]

Now for my 8th grader, whether I know it or not is not the issue. She works independently on classes I have chosen, I schedule and I grade.

How can you possibly grade something you don't know?

I'm not provoking, it's a VERY serious question. How can you grade her work in the material you don't know and how can you ever be sure of that grade?

[Pink Fairy]

How can you possibly grade something you don't know?

I'm not provoking, it's a VERY serious question. How can you grade her work in the material you don't know and how can you ever be sure of that grade?

 

An answer key.

[Jane in NC]

An answer key.

 

Sorry--that does not always work! In mathematics, for example, the subject is not about answers but process. It is challenging for a person who does not know Calculus to look at a solutions manual (with steps given) and determine if your student's answer (which looks quite different) is indeed correct. Mathematics problems rarely have a single method of solution and an "answer" is relatively meaningless in the case of complex problem. (Parents often make note of the difficulty in grading geometric proofs for precisely this reason.)

 

Ester Maria raises a very good point. I had an answer key for Oxford Latin III but I often could not tell my son why a particular grammatical structure was used over another. My high school Latin and my logical mind helped me stay with my son through Latin II and into Latin III. But at some point I needed more help in understanding subtlety.

[Pink Fairy]

Sorry--that does not always work! In mathematics, for example, the subject is not about answers but process. It is challenging for a person who does not know Calculus to look at a solutions manual (with steps given) and determine if your student's answer (which looks quite different) is indeed correct. Mathematics problems rarely have a single method of solution and an "answer" is relatively meaningless in the case of complex problem. (Parents often make note of the difficulty in grading geometric proofs for precisely this reason.)

 

Ester Maria raises a very good point. I had an answer key for Oxford Latin III but I often could not tell my son why a particular grammatical structure was used over another. My high school Latin and my logical mind helped me stay with my son through Latin II and into Latin III. But at some point I needed more help in understanding subtlety.

 

Okay, I'll qualify. Is an anwer key always, 100% of the time, without fail, all you need? No. Is it usually sufficient? Yes.

 

For all of you agonizing over how to properly homeschool, how long have you been doing it? Did you homeschool through the high school years already? Is your concern based on experience?

[mirth]

I don't understand it! The dc teaching themselves doesn't CUT it! :svengo:

 

Yes, yes, I know there are online courses, etc. but....

 

Do the online teachers have office hours to help struggling students IF the parent can't help? :confused: :toetap05:

 

The assumption throughout this thread is that 100% paid teachers know their material, or at least care to know it. To which I say, yeah ... right.

 

Now that I think about, probably 90% of subs I encountered from K-12 were probably more qualified/engaged than the teachers on payroll for which they were subbing for!

[Ester Maria]

Sorry--that does not always work! In mathematics, for example, the subject is not about answers but process. It is challenging for a person who does not know Calculus to look at a solutions manual (with steps given) and determine if your student's answer (which looks quite different) is indeed correct. Mathematics problems rarely have a single method of solution and an "answer" is relatively meaningless in the case of complex problem. (Parents often make note of the difficulty in grading geometric proofs for precisely this reason.)

My point exactly.

 

The example you bring up is also related to sciences - how are you going to grade problems in Physics or Chemistry if you have to rely on the answer key, which might be incorrect (typos happen), partial (not showing the full process) or discriminating against other ways of getting the same solution (by showing only one type of process, for example), and don't really know is it that you're grading? And even if those aren't the problem, how can you ever know your child learned the material rather than just memorized the scheme you need to solve the problems? There is a world of difference between mechanic putting numbers in random formulae you memorized, and actually understanding the entire process, what is the formula the abstraction of, in what relation it is with other phenomena, etc.

 

Humanities are even more complex if you don't know what it is you're grading. How can you grade an essay on a topic you're not familiar with? Can you really rely on the answers on concrete questions ("who, when, said what" type of questions) you can easily check with an answer key to show whether your child knows the material and has thought about it, rather than just memorized the facts? How can you know if your child has an organized net of facts, "facts", opinions and approaches to a topic in their mind if you don't have it, if you haven't talked about it multiple times, if you haven't interrogated them past the level of "who, when, said what"?

 

Don't even get me started on foreign languages - how on Earth can you grade that, if you don't speak them to a considerably high level?

(Definitely not saying that kids shouldn't learn some things on their own, or with tutors, etc., and that they should be the victims of their parents' limitations, but how can you GRADE that kind of work? Is it a grade you can really stand for, a grade you can put your signature next to and be peaceful with it?)

[Jen500]

My point exactly.

 

The example you bring up is also related to sciences - how are you going to grade problems in Physics or Chemistry if you have to rely on the answer key, which might be incorrect (typos happen), partial (not showing the full process) or discriminating against other ways of getting the same solution (by showing only one type of process, for example), and don't really know is it that you're grading? And even if those aren't the problem, how can you ever know your child learned the material rather than just memorized the scheme you need to solve the problems? There is a world of difference between mechanic putting numbers in random formulae you memorized, and actually understanding the entire process, what is the formula the abstraction of, in what relation it is with other phenomena, etc.

 

/QUOTE]

 

Thank you for these posts, Ester Maria and Jane, you have given me a lot to think about as my kids get older.

[Ester Maria]

The assumption throughout this thread is that 100% paid teachers know their material, or at least care to know it. To which I say, yeah ... right.

 

Now that I think about, probably 90% of subs I encountered from K-12 were probably more qualified/engaged than the teachers on payroll for which they were subbing for!

But see, in order to teach in a school, you need certain qualifications, and it doesn't really happen that you have a middle/high school teacher teaching and grading Math AND French AND Latin AND Biology AND Philosophy... maybe a few related fields they studied jointly, but that's about it (supposing we have a regular situation in school and not a lack of staff which forces the school to hire somebody underqualified for the job).

In order to homeschool, in most of the states and countries you don't need any formal qualifications for what you teach, and you find yourself teaching and grading things which are also removed from your expertise area.

 

There are bad students even in colleges, there are people who learn the material quickly and forget and thus become bad professors, or they even know the material but simply don't care and thus are bad professors again, I agree, BUT, the fact remains that those people DID go through a relatively high level of formal instruction for what they are going to teach. They have something that stands behind them, an institution, a degree, people who graded them in college and who let them pass.

 

I worked in university before moving here and trust me, grading is no joke. You have to be able to STAND BEHIND the grade you're giving. You get into situations where you really think not twice, but three, four times, before allowing certain students pass, or before giving them a higher or a lower grade. Your grade has to reflect your criteria and their knowledge, and it's YOU who is standing behind that. If I allow your average Rossi to pass my exam even though he doesn't have a clue, and then one day he teaches Italian literature to high schoolers and obviously knows nothing about an epoch or authors I taught him in university, somebody MIGHT and WILL ask him "who the hell let you pass that exam in university?!". And if you get numerous situations like that as a professor... You get my point. Even if no possible consequences for your value as a professor in other people's eyes are involved, you can't allow YOURSELF, out of your own personal pride and values, to sign a grade you can't stand for, just like you can't allow yourself to sign documents, petitions and alike you don't stand for.

Now, why would my daughters get a different treatment than other people I taught and examined? Maybe the content and the level will differ, but in order to give a grade I CAN peacefully sign, I HAVE to know the material per forza.

 

So that's the problematic point with homeschooling (one of many) - because of the lack of formal training for so many fields, it's hard to grade the material you yourself only studied at school, let alone the material you never encountered. You have nobody and nothing to stand behind YOU when you're grading, saying "yes, that person is qualified for that", so you have to be EXTRA careful with the fields that aren't your primary or related to your primary.

 

None of us here can possibly know all, but I'll say something I know many of you will attack (I apologize in advance if it hurts somebody's feelings, it's not my intention to sound harsh or judge anyone, only to voice my opinion), it's just that I can't swallow NOT saying: I think it's a question of elementary intellectual honesty to put your signature only on the things you're familiar with and can stand for. If you reach the level with your kids where you can't do it - excellent, you have great kids who have surpassed you, but then do make sure OTHER people grade that work (let them take formal tests somewhere, etc., and insist that it's not you signing that grade but somebody else).

Edited January 17, 2010 by Ester Maria
added "apologetic" parts

[Jane in NC]

My point exactly.

 

The example you bring up is also related to sciences - how are you going to grade problems in Physics or Chemistry if you have to rely on the answer key, which might be incorrect (typos happen), partial (not showing the full process) or discriminating against other ways of getting the same solution (by showing only one type of process, for example), and don't really know is it that you're grading? And even if those aren't the problem, how can you ever know your child learned the material rather than just memorized the scheme you need to solve the problems? There is a world of difference between mechanic putting numbers in random formulae you memorized, and actually understanding the entire process, what is the formula the abstraction of, in what relation it is with other phenomena, etc.

 

Humanities are even more complex if you don't know what it is you're grading. How can you grade an essay on a topic you're not familiar with? Can you really rely on the answers on concrete questions ("who, when, said what" type of questions) you can easily check with an answer key to show whether your child knows the material and has thought about it, rather than just memorized the facts? How can you know if your child has an organized net of facts, "facts", opinions and approaches to a topic in their mind if you don't have it, if you haven't talked about it multiple times, if you haven't interrogated them past the level of "who, when, said what"?

 

Don't even get me started on foreign languages - how on Earth can you grade that, if you don't speak them to a considerably high level?

(Definitely not saying that kids shouldn't learn some things on their own, or with tutors, etc., and that they should be the victims of their parents' limitations, but how can you GRADE that kind of work? Is it a grade you can really stand for, a grade you can put your signature next to and be peaceful with it?)

 

Piggybacking on my previous response and replying to this:

 

My son earned two and a half units of credit for high school French, a subject which I studied along with him. From the get go, I felt that I could not give him a grade in the subject. His transcript reads "P" for pass.

 

Latin, on the other hand, was something that I felt I could comfortably explain and grade until, as I mentioned, some point in Oxford Latin III. I cobbled together an Intro Latin Lit course using Bolchazy Legamus readers (hand holders!) and a Bolchazy Cicero AP workbook. I'll admit that the A on my son's transcript for that course came with a question mark until this year. He now studies AP Latin (Vergil) in an online course. His average for the first semester is 99.8 percent. I think the A from the previous course may have been justified. But I'll admit that I have labored over determining this and some other grades.

 

My son has had outside verification of his grades via community college courses. Some parents use AP scores or SAT subject tests to justify grades given. I have considered performance on the National Latin Exam as some sort of outside verification, but the NLE syllabus does not really coincide with a particular text.

 

Grades are arbitrary and really not the point of learning. I will say that there are times our knuckleheaded approach to self education bears interesting fruit which may not be quantifiable. But that does not dismiss its quality as an educational experience. One of the beautiful things about homeschooling is having the opportunity to pursue passions. My son, the budding archaeologist, has worked side by side with professionals in the field. An archaeologist is currently serving as his senior project adviser. This experience outweighs some of the limitations we may have had in studying other subjects.

 

Keep that in mind.

 

Jane

[Anne in CA]

I really appreciate this forum because it forces me to think about things I don't normally worry about. I have really enjoyed reading through everyone's thoughts. Everyone's efforts to be civil were refreshing. I love honest disagreement, because it makes me a better mom and teacher to think things through. Every time I have walked away from this thread I have been thinking, and that's a good thing!

 

I also began the WTM journey eight years ago. Back then I stayed up late at night learning things and did taught my son side by side, table, couch or lawn every subject.

 

Life has happened. My husband makes only 2/3 of what he used to make. Now I work more. My dd has never had as much attention as my son, but is doing well by anyone's standards. My son taught himself algebra and geometry from Jacob's textbooks. Sometimes I had a college math professor we go to church with look over his work, and he has done very well.

 

The situation is not ideal, but both of my children are self starters and ambitious with a good work ethic, so they learn well on their own. This thread is making me evaluate how I proceed with dd next year. I will make more of an effort with her, because this thread forced me to think about it.

[Ester Maria]

Grades are arbitrary and really not the point of learning. I will say that there are times our knuckleheaded approach to self education bears interesting fruit which may not be quantifiable. But that does not dismiss its quality as an educational experience. One of the beautiful things about homeschooling is having the opportunity to pursue passions. My son, the budding archaeologist, has worked side by side with professionals in the field. An archaeologist is currently serving as his senior project adviser. This experience outweighs some of the limitations we may have had in studying other subjects.

Can't not agree with this. :) I don't think that grades are a "point" of anything, it's just that out of principle I don't grade things I can't grade, just like I don't sign petitions I don't stand for, just like I don't sign contracts I haven't read and fully understood, etc. That's, essentially, my only point, not that grades on the long run matter or mean much. ;) And I'm also personally VERY opposed to the trend of the "quantifying" the knowledge (standard tests and alike), and many of the reasons for that are those you just wrote, but that's a whole other discussion.

[Jane in NC]

Can't not agree with this. :) I don't think that grades are a "point" of anything, it's just that out of principle I don't grade things I can't grade, just like I don't sign petitions I don't stand for, just like I don't sign contracts I haven't read and fully understood, etc. That's, essentially, my only point, not that grades on the long run matter or mean much. ;) And I'm also personally VERY opposed to the trend of the "quantifying" the knowledge (standard tests and alike), and many of the reasons for that are those you just wrote, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

Hence the use of the "P" (pass) grade for some subjects on my son's transcript.

 

I fear though that the issue of grades is actually a sidetrack from the original post.

[Rosie_0801]

How can you possibly grade something you don't know?

I'm not provoking, it's a VERY serious question. How can you grade her work in the material you don't know and how can you ever be sure of that grade?

 

You don't need to know subject content (the economic history of Nairobi or something) to evaluate spelling, grammar, punctuation, ability to support arguments, footnoting and bibliography.

 

Rosie

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My point exactly.

 

The example you bring up is also related to sciences - how are you going to grade problems in Physics or Chemistry if you have to rely on the answer key, which might be incorrect (typos happen), partial (not showing the full process) or discriminating against other ways of getting the same solution (by showing only one type of process, for example), and don't really know is it that you're grading? And even if those aren't the problem, how can you ever know your child learned the material rather than just memorized the scheme you need to solve the problems? There is a world of difference between mechanic putting numbers in random formulae you memorized, and actually understanding the entire process, what is the formula the abstraction of, in what relation it is with other phenomena, etc.

 

Humanities are even more complex if you don't know what it is you're grading. How can you grade an essay on a topic you're not familiar with? Can you really rely on the answers on concrete questions ("who, when, said what" type of questions) you can easily check with an answer key to show whether your child knows the material and has thought about it, rather than just memorized the facts? How can you know if your child has an organized net of facts, "facts", opinions and approaches to a topic in their mind if you don't have it, if you haven't talked about it multiple times, if you haven't interrogated them past the level of "who, when, said what"?

 

Don't even get me started on foreign languages - how on Earth can you grade that, if you don't speak them to a considerably high level?

(Definitely not saying that kids shouldn't learn some things on their own, or with tutors, etc., and that they should be the victims of their parents' limitations, but how can you GRADE that kind of work? Is it a grade you can really stand for, a grade you can put your signature next to and be peaceful with it?)

:iagree:

I do agree that once I am not able to master something, then I should use outside sources such as online or in-person classes that have an instructor who grades everything. Currently, we do use a public cyber charter school with teacher oversight and support, but I still do 99% of the instruction and grading with the answer keys and guidance that are provided by the school. So far it is easy since ds is only in 2nd grade:) Now I have heard that in upper grades such as highschool that there is more online classes and more teacher oversight and more work submissions:) If we choose homeschooling instead of public cyber school later then I hope to use the resources that are available to me as well as try to learn and re-learn as much as possible with ds;) Thank goodness there are tons of extensive resources that are available to homeschoolers:)

[Peela]

Ive just come back to reading this thread after a couple of days and the tone I pick up is definitely a "this is the only right way to do it" sort of tone. Actually, thousands of homeschooled kids have "graduated" with a whole range of abilities and talents and strengths and weaknesses. I agree that honesty is important. I dont have to grade so its not an issue but I can see how it could be for parents that need to grade when they dont really know the subtleties of the subject.

Also, I think its one thing to have an opinion of how you will do it, and another when you have actually "done" it and are speaking from experience.

I agree with and am inspired by the gist of the conversation. I do think its a great and wonderful thing if parent can stay ahead of the child and involved- if one's goal is a very high academic standard across the board. In the end, it turned out, even though I love classical, it wasnt my main goal. My main goals turned out to be much more practical than academic. I wanted the kids to feel they could tackle anything they wanted, I wanted them to be capable in practical skills, I wanted them to be well rounded people and not spend 8 hours a day on academics even in highschool- even though I do value the academics too.

My own experience as I move through the teen years and see what life unfolds for me, for us, has mellowed me somewhat. I dont have to jump through too many hoops to get my kids into university though. Its not so hard here- I dont have to do transcripts, grades or anything like that. My dd is intending to do a Diploma in her y12 which will then place her straight into 2nd year uni if she chooses- and getting into the diploma course was easy. So here I am with a year up our sleeve, not " having " to do anything to get her anywhere. I am employing outside services to get her writing to a high standard, but chances are, it is already higher than what the diploma course needs.

While I do hear and understand many of the points being made....these are real people and real families we are talking about, not abstracts. We can have great ideals and its good to be aware of potential and limitations, and also to be very honest about the whole academic process. But in the end....I wouldnt like to judge families who homeschool for other reasons, who choose DVD programs or follow textbooks. For many of them, its a lifestyle choice and the mother is not inspired or possibly capable of doing the work herself, beyond the basics and using the answer key. Maybe its not ideal from one very elite perspective..but many kids are not going to soar to those academic heights anyway and just getting through is ok. And many who self teach or who use less than ideal courses actually do ok, get to college etc.

I understand many of the points and feel its a very worthwhile discussion. Its just that when you put them together it can come across as very elitist and judgemental of ordinary folks who are just doing it the way they see best. Yes there are neglectful parents but using the extreme to measure the average is not very fair. People are just people and getting by, enjoying and loving their kids the best they know how. I would say there are people on these boards who work at the other extreme- the highly academic extreme- driven by any manner of things including very bright kids at times- but many of us have slightly different priorities.

I appreciate the discussion though and it has influenced me as I potter about on my summer break preparing for our next year.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Peela

[Retired]

Yep, this is getting on my nerves as well. It seems as though there is a lot of "Look at how hard I am working to stay ahead of my kid. Please pat me on the back" crud flying around. Well, let me just come out and say this. (Warning: Wendi may likely get slightly ghetto on you!) My mommy and daddy were dirt poor and completely sub-par parents. Honestly, they s*cked. I did not have the opportunity to study at some wonderful university. I joined the Navy to get far, FAR away. After I got out, I attended community college and (GASP!!!) an online university to obtain my degree. Yep, I know some will look down on my degree. Send my a PM. I will gladly forward you the multitude of papers I wrote. What does this mean? I busted my bum teaching myself. My kids witnessed every moment of that experience. I taught them that someone is never too old to learn something new. Granted, I am younger (not yet 30), but the message was recieved. Nope, I do not know every learning theory or methodology out there. But you know what? I KNOW what is best for MY kids. I KNOW how they learn. I don't need any self-righteous homeschooler telling me I am doing it wrong. I have a ps-school-teaching mother-in-law for that. I come here for support. I don't come here to hear that my putting my kids in front of a "Planet Earth" DVD for science one day so I can take a flipping shower is some sort of derelection of my duty. I have three kids. My dh works long hours. I do not have my mommy or daddy around for support. I do it all on my own. Perhaps other homeschoolers judge you. Maybe they are talking about your insane goals RIGHT THIS MOMENT!!! You know what I learned today (right along with my children- the horror!!!)? Joy comes when you do not take yourself too seriously. Read Hero Tales. You may learn something.

 

Done.

 

:thumbup: great post

[Rosy]

I tend to think there's a big difference between high school and college. College is when mastery must be demonstrated, up until then my goal is to foster a love of learning, an ability to gain and apply knowledge in a variety of subject areas, an understanding of literature and an ability to dialogue about it, a broad understanding of history and the sciences (depth to be determined by the interest and ability level of each child), and math skills that will prepare my kids for college-level math classes. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see these being particularly difficult to assess and evaluate as a homeschooling parent, even if I haven't achieved mastery in each area.

 

In college, I expect that they will be building on what they have learned at home, and they might even have to correct some things they learned incorrectly. I would rather have them love learning, be eager students and hard workers and have humble attitudes than have learned everything perfectly the first time around. For me, preparing them for college doesn't mean teaching them everything perfectly and having them be experts in every field. I want them to be well-versed. I think that is entirely possible for an involved homeschooling parent, even if she has educational limitations.

 

I am the first to admit that I am incapable of giving my kids a perfect education. It is not my goal. I only hope to prepare them, morally as well as academically, for higher education and career work. And in some cases, they will achieve these goals better by self-teaching than by my spoon-feeding them or fighting to keep a step ahead of them. And when none of those options are desirable, outsourcing is a great option. Homeschooling isn't about doing it all myself, in my opinion. Why should it be?

[Ester Maria]

You don't need to know subject content (the economic history of Nairobi or something) to evaluate spelling, grammar, punctuation, ability to support arguments, footnoting and bibliography.

If the subject is Economy, then spelling, grammar and punctuation are the least important aspects of the essay (not that they shouldn't matter at all when grading it, but they really aren't what it's all about in that case); you cannot judge one's ability to support argument if you don't know those arguments (and counter-arguments); and you cannot estimate the quality and reliability of the sources in bibliography if you haven't read books on the topic (not necessarily every single one which is there, but you would actually have to be aware of the authors, approaches, the points they bring, etc.).

 

What you're talking about is grading the form, and I see where you're coming from - mastering the form of the essay IS important (skill-wise). But in that case we're talking about the first few essays your student writes, when you're learning how to write an essay, how to back up your arguments, how to cite, what to cite and what not to cite, stuff like that.

After that, the form is really only a form and is of a secondary importance, and you cannot really grade a content if you lack basic familiarity with it.

For me, preparing them for college doesn't mean teaching them everything perfectly and having them be experts in every field. I want them to be well-versed. I think that is entirely possible for an involved homeschooling parent, even if she has educational limitations.

But, Rosy, that's exactly what some of us here are talking about the whole time. Not perfection, and we're not even talking about reaching past-high school level of knowledge in the subjects you study (if you do reach it - great, you have amazing and probably gifted kids, but that's certainly not a must, right?); what we're talking about is indeed the schooling approximately within the limits of high school experience, anything past that happens only with some kids and is not the standard anyone on these boards is trying to impose.

Also, note that a high school experience of any subject is not a mastery by any stretch of imagination, even with AP courses. But, to teach those and to grade those, it certainly does take familiarity with a topic.

 

I forgot to quote Peela's post while multiquoting, but the point she makes comes here too - Peela, nobody is advising elitism when saying that they (we) do consider it somewhat irresponsible to teach, monitor the progress and grade the content you're not familiar with. And again, nobody is making a point that because of that, kids shouldn't learn it or that kids shouldn't learn on their own and get examined and monitored by somebody else. Nobody. I repeat, we certainly don't want our children to be the victims of our limitations. It's just that if I chose to homeschool them, it doesn't mean choosing only freedom of educational approach - it means also choosing responsibility - responsibility that, because of my choices, I will not deprive my children of the things which should be the default (even if, sadly, in many schools they aren't - but I'm not using that as an excuse to lower my own criteria). A compentent professor is one of those things, just as not skipping some important things only because you dislike them or aren't overly familiar with them is as well.

 

And for some of us here who make certain points which obviously appear elitist to you, basic intellectual honesty (not grading what you're infamiliar with, allowing somebody else to monitor progress in the fields you can't follow, knowing the material you do teach and monitor, etc.) is simply a part of that responsibility.

 

Also, nobody is talking about giving a "perfect" education to our children and I doubt anyone thinks they do or can. Most of us take our children's education seriously and do the most we can do - some can do more, some can do less, but we all put considerable amounts of effort into what we do. All I'm saying is that sometimes, especially when it comes to high school level courses, it's not enough. The effort is not ALL that counts - just like you would not allow your kids to pass certain subjects based only on the effort they make, but without some "concrete" knowledge of the subject, you shouldn't consider yourself entitled to teach and grade the things you're not familiar with and refuse to make yourself familiar with (lack of time, will, etc.) based only on "but I try so much to give them a good education!".

Yes, we all try. And we all inevitably, sooner or late, hit some points where it's just. not. enough. If you can't follow it, don't teach it. And above all, don't grade it.

 

I'm sorry if some of those sound elitist, or if I'm incapable of sugarcoating it enough, if it sounds too direct. I know we all have good intentions regardless of the differences in our approaches.

[homeschoolally]

This has been an interesting thread and there have been some good points made. Rather than restating some of those points, I have one thought I haven't heard much about.

 

How could I possibly be an attentive wife and mother (mom--not teacher) if I am taking on that kind of academic load? There aren't enough hours in the day to realistically do this in the upper grades. I'm teaching my kids to work independently on some subjects not only because I believe they will benefit as students, but because I want to have time to be a nurturing mom.

 

Unless you only sleep 4 hours a night, or have a cook and housekeeper--how could a middle-aged mom be both a HS student and homemaker/homeschooler? Many of us, even those who are college grads, have forgotten HS math, science--or we're finding we never learned some subjects at all. I'm sure the 'idea' of re-learning all this material appeals to many, but I find it unrealistic.

 

Off to make a hot lunch and re-boot the laundry, while my children study.

Edited January 18, 2010 by homeschoolally

[angela in ohio]

This has been an interesting thread and there have been some good points made. Rather than restating some of those points, I have one thought I haven't heard much about.

 

How could I possibly be an attentive wife and mother (mom--not teacher) if I am taking on that kind of academic load? There aren't enough hours in the day to realistically do this in the upper grades. I'm teaching my kids to work independently on some subjects not only because I believe they will benefit as students, but because I want to have time to be a nurturing mom.

 

Unless you only sleep 4 hours a night, or have a cook and housekeeper--how could a middle-aged mom be both a HS student and homemaker/homeschooler? Many of us, even those who are college grads, have forgotten HS math, science--or we're finding we never learned some subjects at all. I'm sure the 'idea' of re-learning all this material appeals to many, but I find it unrealistic.

 

Off to make a hot lunch and re-boot the laundry, while my children study.

 

Well, my kids eat out of dumpsters and live in rags, how else? ;)

 

A big part of the answer here has been for my dc to learn to be responsible for these things. I don't do much of the laundry or cleaning, and I only do some of the cooking. Another part is that I streamline my life: no scrapbooking weekends, no favorite TV shows, no latest novels, no complicated history or science program for the 7 yo, etc. That way I don't have to be a horrible mother and wife in order to self-educate. My priorities right now are developing dialectic and rhetorical skills in my two oldest dc, and that requires me to know what they are learning and discuss, discuss, discuss. :001_smile:

 

My oldest is only 13, but I've taught outside classes these past few years which I know took more time that it will take me to teach dc high school. I've also already re-learned or pre-learned just about everything I won't be re-learning alongside them (science and calculus.) I owe much gratitude to smart women on the old boards who talked about sticking with the basics when the dc are little and educating yourself for later years.

 

I don't personally think everyone has to do this, I just want to say that it is a good and possible option and doesn't require abdicating your role as wife and mother.

Edited January 18, 2010 by angela in ohio

[hornblower]

If you can't follow it, don't teach it. And above all, don't grade it.

 

 

I really don't understand this constant refrain about grading?? Do you guys need to grade? I don't grade so this has never occurred to me to be an issue. If my kids want to get the official provincial high school diploma, they'll need to challenge courses & write exams & someone else will be grading them. But there's no requirement for them to do that & if they're applying for university as homelearners, it's by portfolio.

 

If I did need my kids to have letter grades, I'd have them self-assess.

 

 

 

BTW, this has got to be one of the most depressing threads I've read on these forums.

 

It completely demoralizes. And it goes against what SWB says in the WTM itself.

 

What happened to the tools of learning? What happened to equipping our kids to read/write/reason & letting them run with it?

[Rosy]

 

Also, nobody is talking about giving a "perfect" education to our children and I doubt anyone thinks they do or can. Most of us take our children's education seriously and do the most we can do - some can do more, some can do less, but we all put considerable amounts of effort into what we do. All I'm saying is that sometimes, especially when it comes to high school level courses, it's not enough. The effort is not ALL that counts - just like you would not allow your kids to pass certain subjects based only on the effort they make, but without some "concrete" knowledge of the subject, you shouldn't consider yourself entitled to teach and grade the things you're not familiar with and refuse to make yourself familiar with (lack of time, will, etc.) based only on "but I try so much to give them a good education!".

Yes, we all try. And we all inevitably, sooner or late, hit some points where it's just. not. enough. If you can't follow it, don't teach it. And above all, don't grade it.

 

 

I agree with that. For some of us, the solution is outsourcing via online classes, co-ops, etc. The OP didn't seem to think that was good enough.

 

For me, I know that there are many who have gone before me with similar abilities, resources, and limitations, who have graduated kids that have gone on to be successful in all areas of life. This isn't an excuse for me to let them muddle through on their own. This is an acknowledgment of the fact that for my kids, the best possible education might not include direct, 1:1 mentoring in every subject area, and that it might not be ideal, but it might be enough to get them started in the right direction.

 

I'm curious--what do you (Ester Maria, Mich elle, or others) suggest to parents who can't keep up with their kids academically? Is public school a better option in your mind? Should parents who can't teach Algebra 2 just have their kids stop at Algebra 1? Do we all need to be able to hire tutors or put kids in college classes? I'd like to know what the solution is in your minds.

[LisaNY]

It is not just filling them with knowledge, it's teaching them how to seek knowledge. For the rest of their life, there will be things they need to learn and they will have to know how to seek that information from somewhere other than a teacher.

 

 

 

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin would wholeheartedly agree with you. :D

[Quad Shot Academy]

 

BTW, this has got to be one of the most depressing threads I've read on these forums.

 

It completely demoralizes. And it goes against what SWB says in the WTM itself.

 

What happened to the tools of learning? What happened to equipping our kids to read/write/reason & letting them run with it?

 

:iagree:

[GWOB]

BTW, this has got to be one of the most depressing threads I've read on these forums.

 

It completely demoralizes. And it goes against what SWB says in the WTM itself.

 

What happened to the tools of learning? What happened to equipping our kids to read/write/reason & letting them run with it?

 

:iagree:

 

I thought that was my job as a home educator. Next thing you know those same posters will insist we all need teaching certificates to teach our kids:001_rolleyes:.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

My dear hubby is one of the smartest men I know.

 

He has a lousy high-school diploma.

 

He can diagnose just about any car problem and has rebuilt many engines over the years.

 

He has set up and expanded our home network beyond what normal folks do...

 

He built a shed out back with no plans, just picture of sheds around the neighborhood.

 

He can drive by an accident and pretty much tell me how it happened by looking at the crash site.

 

He writes programs in Excel for his job.

 

He fixes all our appliances.

 

He's laid carpet and laminate throughout the house.

 

He does our taxes (as well as my mom's and our friends)

 

He buys puts and options in the stock market (don't ask me). He understands stock charts and financial statement.

 

None of these things he learned in school or with the assistance of a teacher.

 

He can read.

He can think.

He can understand.

 

He can.

 

That is what I want for my children.

 

K

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I really don't understand this constant refrain about grading?? Do you guys need to grade? I don't grade so this has never occurred to me to be an issue. If my kids want to get the official provincial high school diploma, they'll need to challenge courses & write exams & someone else will be grading them. But there's no requirement for them to do that & if they're applying for university as homelearners, it's by portfolio.

 

If I did need my kids to have letter grades, I'd have them self-assess.

 

 

 

BTW, this has got to be one of the most depressing threads I've read on these forums.

 

It completely demoralizes. And it goes against what SWB says in the WTM itself.

 

What happened to the tools of learning? What happened to equipping our kids to read/write/reason & letting them run with it?

 

This concept that our best effort is not enough is quite depressing. Ester Maria, I'm glad you are educated enough and smart enough to be enough as your child's teacher, but unless you are opening a school to the whole wide world where all can learn as well as your kids are learning, what do you hope to gain by repeating your less-than-encouraging opinions?

 

My "not good enough" is the best my kids can have, and I come here to the WTM boards for support in doing the best I can within my capabilities.

 

I don't come here to listen to lectures about the inferiority of homeschooling and/or homeschooling mothers.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Dulcimeramy

[Carol in Cal.]

I

It completely demoralizes. And it goes against what SWB says in the WTM itself.

 

What happened to the tools of learning? What happened to equipping our kids to read/write/reason & letting them run with it?

 

SWB talks a lot about the need to consider outsourcing, and various means to do that, in the high school portion of her book. In addition, she talks a great deal about the need for outside verification of grades via testing or recommendations. It's true that she sees parents moving into facilitator roles to some extent, but she also expects them to provide significant, continuous oversight. It's not fair to her book to leave those parts out.

 

BTW, I have an example. My dh cannot do algebra. Now, I happen to think that at this point if he really tried, he would learn it with no problem; but the abstract equations drive him mad. So last year when DD was doing pre-algebra, he really, honestly, could not help her when she got things wrong. He would sit and look at it forever and get very frustrated.

 

Now, a kid who was more gifted in math would have been able to figure this out herself, but DD hates math, and really needs someone to sit with her, pretty often, and make sure that she really learns it, and walk her through areas of difficulty. If my DH were the only homeschooling parent in our family, it would be HIS JOB to find a tutor or an online class or some other feedback/help mechanism for our DD. Luckily she has me, though, so I can take this on in our own home. However, even the Saxon solutions manuals were not adequate for DH and Dd together; and for science and higher math and foreign languages and other content-oriented complex subjects, solution manuals run out of steam at some point. It gets to the point where someone really does have to know the material to be able to evaluate kids' work, or they need to take CLEP test or a SAT subject area test or an online class to prove what they know.

 

This is really, really straightforward, and not to recognize this is to do all but the most self-starting, able to learn on their own students a major disservice at the high school level if you want to keep their university options open.

[houseofrabbits]

In my situation God led me into homeschooling and I reluctantly obeyed. Homeschooling at the lower levels prepared me for the those areas in homeschooling my now high schooler. Even a public school teacher doesn't know "everything" about a subject. Don't forget that someone other than the teacher decides which curricula are used and the teacher has to learn it. Teachers will switch out of grades or subjects and need to "learn" what they are teaching.

 

I can't speak to online help for every program a child uses but many do offer the help as part of the curriculum package.

 

Quad Shot Academy is spot on saying how they are training their children to be independent learners because this is what college and real life is like. I certainly don't go and take a formal class for everything I want to learn. I have to search it out for myself, find someone who has knowledge and ask.

 

The other thing most of us take into account is our children's learning style and we are privileged to be able to adapt teaching methods to them. I don't know there were specific children in mind when the post was started but even we as teachers have different teaching styles. I don't quite understand "unschooling" except as a general concept but I've seen it work well in some families whereas my family's schooling is perhaps more classical and it suits us.

 

Just my .02!

 

Liz

[mirth]

Yeah, I guess if you stare blankly at your kid with drool coming out of your mouth when they ask for help, it would be a problem.

 

[i just had to wryly comment that sadly, I would say most of my ps teachers, especially in the lower grades weren't far from this.]

 

 

And for some of us here who make certain points which obviously appear elitist to you, basic intellectual honesty (not grading what you're infamiliar with, allowing somebody else to monitor progress in the fields you can't follow, knowing the material you do teach and monitor, etc.) is simply a part of that responsibility.

 

The most fundamental example of basic intellectual honesty to me is an instructor or coach saying "I don't know" when confronted with a question where he doesn't know the answer, or isn't sure. (Tara even examined this case for the concerned, but non-expert coach, in saying "let's call Uncle Abner ...")

 

In my PhD qualifier exams (in engineering), the worst thing you could do when answering a test question (the questions, for lack of a better explanation, were all set up and solve, explain everything -- every assumption, everything you consider negligible that may appear relevant, total expository fashion) was to write down something you were not sure was 100% true. It was far better to leave a question blank than to guess in some half-baked fashion if you just weren't sure. The reason is that you could really write down something stupid and the prof, who both wrote the question and is an expert in this area, could see your insipid response and forever think of you as a bozo in the halls, in class, reading your next exam answer.

 

This absence of "honesty", which I found missing so frequently and so glaringly throughout my ps experience, serves no one and nothing. It is the worst and most damaging form of dishonesty. The teachers (mine, who are not that bright to begin with) who wanted to rule the roost and not waste time answering questions , the textbooks which want to sound authoritative, all participated in this sort of dishonorable education ... fire-dousing of curiosity. I think this form of honesty, is germane to the homeschooled-by-a-non-Nobel-laureate-parent-who-loves-and-wants-the-best-for-you process.

 

There is certainly truth to what the OP and EM have stated at many point. The biggest inference I made is that unless one steps up to try get somewhat of a grip on what your kid is learning, it is is very hard to determine if your program (on-line, correspondence, RS) is actually inferior to some other program you could pick for your child for the same amount of $, time investment, mental bandwidth, etc.

Edited January 18, 2010 by mirth

[elegantlion]

This has been an interesting thread and there have been some good points made. Rather than restating some of those points, I have one thought I haven't heard much about.

 

How could I possibly be an attentive wife and mother (mom--not teacher) if I am taking on that kind of academic load? There aren't enough hours in the day to realistically do this in the upper grades. I'm teaching my kids to work independently on some subjects not only because I believe they will benefit as students, but because I want to have time to be a nurturing mom.

 

Unless you only sleep 4 hours a night, or have a cook and housekeeper--how could a middle-aged mom be both a HS student and homemaker/homeschooler? Many of us, even those who are college grads, have forgotten HS math, science--or we're finding we never learned some subjects at all. I'm sure the 'idea' of re-learning all this material appeals to many, but I find it unrealistic.

 

Off to make a hot lunch and re-boot the laundry, while my children study.

 

I can only address how I am handling this. I consider myself a student of our school. We started with classical schooling last year, 5th grade for ds, and I started on high school requirements for myself. I work my courses into our budget and schedule them out, albeit looser than ds' schedule. I've been out of school for 25 years and I've spent the last 2 years breaking off the rust from all of those subjects. I feel like I'm barely out of the starting gate, but I keep pressing on.

 

Learning/relearning is not unrealistic for me. I feel pressure because I only have child. In my own mind I have to feel like I've made the right choices for him, otherwise I might rip my hair out.

 

I do spend a lot of time on school related activities. I have a whole bookcase full of books for my own re-education, from pre-algebra to college writing to chemistry. I give school a full time effort, even though ds does 4 hours a day. I take extensive notes of my own study, many things are what I hope to use for ds in the future. I'm often working on my own studies while he is doing independent work.

 

Ds does chores, dh helps him (he's the neat freak). I don't do housework during school hours, except cook lunch and take care of the pets and an occassional load of laundry. My dh works long hours and we eat simple dinners. I try to plan during the week so on the weekends, I'm just mom. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Am I a slacker? Maybe in some people's eyes, but housework will still be there in 6 years when my ds goes off to college.

 

Am I going to feel qualified to teach every subject in high school? Probably not. Between now and then I'm going to do my darndest to figure out what are my strengths and weakeness, fill my own gaps, and derive the best course of action for my son.

 

Just my .02.

[helena]

I'm curious--what do you (Ester Maria, Mich elle, or others) suggest to parents who can't keep up with their kids academically? Is public school a better option in your mind? Should parents who can't teach Algebra 2 just have their kids stop at Algebra 1? Do we all need to be able to hire tutors or put kids in college classes? I'd like to know what the solution is in your minds.

 

I've been wondering that myself?

I'm just glad I have a strong grip on who I am as an educator. Some of what's been said here could really turn a person away from deciding to homeschool.

 

Some of these posts are as inflexible and dry as the public school I took my daughter out of.

[mominbc]

This concept that our best effort is not enough is quite depressing. Ester Maria, I'm glad you are educated enough and smart enough to be enough as your child's teacher, but unless you are opening a school to the whole wide world where all can learn as well as your kids are learning, what do you hope to gain by repeating your less-than-encouraging opinions?

 

My "not good enough" is the best my kids can have, and I come here to the WTM boards for support in doing the best I can within my capabilities.

 

I don't come here to listen to lectures about the inferiority of homeschooling and/or homeschooling mothers.

 

:iagree: I am encouraged by the posters who shared their highschool success stories (I have one too) but there is such a condescending tone. This thread is full of people defending themselves and what they do. Don't we get enough of this in our day to day lives, now we have to go on a homeschool support site to prove that we are doing a good job. Very sad.

[at the beach]

I recalled a post some time ago by Ms. Riding Hood. Her son was accepted by MIT. I loved her post regarding what contributed to his success. I wish I knew how to link an old post here but can't seem to figure it out.:confused: But it's post number 40 in the thread started by Ms. Riding Hood, titled "He Got In!" I'm not sure if it is okay to cut and paste someone else's old posts here. If so, I'll do that. Or if someone can tell me how to link to a post, that would be great.

[stripe]

I really don't understand this constant refrain about grading?? Do you guys need to grade? I don't grade so this has never occurred to me to be an issue. If my kids want to get the official provincial high school diploma, they'll need to challenge courses & write exams & someone else will be grading them. But there's no requirement for them to do that & if they're applying for university as homelearners, it's by portfolio.

 

If I did need my kids to have letter grades, I'd have them self-assess.

 

Maybe the word "grade" set you off -- but do you perform any sort of evaluation or provide feedback for your children? Do you think it is appropriate or possible for a person who is learning a subject to self-assess? (Can a person learning Greek know how well her Greek really is?)

[Jean in Newcastle]

SWB talks a lot about the need to consider outsourcing, and various means to do that, in the high school portion of her book. In addition, she talks a great deal about the need for outside verification of grades via testing or recommendations. It's true that she sees parents moving into facilitator roles to some extent, but she also expects them to provide significant, continuous oversight. It's not fair to her book to leave those parts out.

 

BTW, I have an example. My dh cannot do algebra. Now, I happen to think that at this point if he really tried, he would learn it with no problem; but the abstract equations drive him mad. So last year when DD was doing pre-algebra, he really, honestly, could not help her when she got things wrong. He would sit and look at it forever and get very frustrated.

 

Now, a kid who was more gifted in math would have been able to figure this out herself, but DD hates math, and really needs someone to sit with her, pretty often, and make sure that she really learns it, and walk her through areas of difficulty. If my DH were the only homeschooling parent in our family, it would be HIS JOB to find a tutor or an online class or some other feedback/help mechanism for our DD. Luckily she has me, though, so I can take this on in our own home. However, even the Saxon solutions manuals were not adequate for DH and Dd together; and for science and higher math and foreign languages and other content-oriented complex subjects, solution manuals run out of steam at some point. It gets to the point where someone really does have to know the material to be able to evaluate kids' work, or they need to take CLEP test or a SAT subject area test or an online class to prove what they know.

 

This is really, really straightforward, and not to recognize this is to do all but the most self-starting, able to learn on their own students a major disservice at the high school level if you want to keep their university options open.

 

But see - my ds could and does figure it out himself. My dd on the other hand, might not be able to once we get to that point since she isn't learning things as easily even in the lower grades. I think what bothers me is not that I don't see the validity of learning things ahead or with our children, or in outsourcing what we can't teach and they aren't getting on their own. What bothers me is that some of us have self learners and it doesn't seem like that is being acknowledged as a valid thing in its own right. I get the feeling (not necessarily from you, Carol, but in general) that self learners at the higher levels are seen with suspicion that they really aren't getting enough or being pushed to their potential or being evaluated enough.

 

This isn't bragging - this is just the facts. An answer key is enough for me for grading my ds' math because he gets them all right. The very few that he doesn't get right, we sit down and look at. When given the right answer, he can very easily point out where he went wrong.

 

I know that he has his Latin well enough because he can use it to translate from English to Latin and back again, easily. In the past he had trouble with some parts. I did painstakingly (because my own Latin isn't as good) sit down and figure out if there was a pattern to what he got wrong. There was. We figured out what was his hang up (singular vs. plural forms) and we did some extra practice on it.

 

I don't know all there is to know about every subject covered in a history report. But I do know the basic outlines of different historical periods and can tell if an argument has a logical progression. Once he gets to the point of backing up his arguments with quotes etc. (he's only in 7th grade so we are only starting this part), I can easily see if he has adequate basis for his argument and if it really supports what he's saying. (I use this same process, btw, to evaluate a book written by an "expert" on something. I don't automatically trust everything they say but I look to see if they have documentation and what it is.)

[Kfamily]

There is a very interesting thread about online classes on the K-8 Board and one, in particular, which refers to SWB's blog entry which discusses this very topic. I thought it would be of interest to some who have been following this thread.

[TravelingChris]

I have graduated one who is a succesful senior in college majoring in philosophy. I gave grades on all subject and they were proved right or even too hard on him compared to the college grades he got. I am grading my second who is in high school too. I have taught a class outside of the home for the first time this year. I can truthfully say that lathough I was teaching a subject i knew about, I assigned a paper where the students wrote about issues, cases and programs I did not know that much about. Why? Because no one knows everything and we can always learn from others. So while I knew something about the Scopes trial and something about prohibition, I learned a lot more when my students wrote about them. SImilarly, when I use dvds or books that i haven't read in my homeschooling, I know enough about the subject to tell whether my kids are reading them or listening or not. WHile I don't sit and listen to the US history lectures my daughter is listening to, I have taken a number of courses in US history and am familiar with it. WIll the lecturer mention something I don't know? Probably. But I have a very auditory learner (and this is not one of those fake things because she actually has a visual memory problem) and I don't have the time to listen to all her lectures and continue teaching her sister and do preparation for my class and do my household things. I know she is getting a better education for her than in school.

 

I think I have it easier than some because my major was math oriented and I had no problems with high school science. My dh is a scientist and the main issue with him helping younger ones is that his explanations are sometimes overly complicated. However, when they get up to trig which I didn't like and am not overly confident about, he takes over.

 

In terms of grading, I don't need many points of reference for my grades for my kids in each class. WHenever I have tested them, their grades match up exactly how I thought they were doing. Same thing with assigning essays. I know which of my kids have an easier time with lit and which ones with science. I remember how I was doing and compare how well they are doing.

 

By the way, my math teachers and science teachers in high school were primarily using answer keys for problems too just like I am. But yes, if there is a question, I can verify. But it isn't the worse thing in the world if your child gets one question wrong because of an error in the book anyway.

 

Everytime I have secretely wondered about some child who was being homeschooled I hae found out the truth later- the child was brain damaged as a baby, the child is a cancer survivor and the chemo affected their learning, the child is having incredible trials at home, not because of bad parenting but economic and medical trials of parents and sibling, etc, etc. I have been homeschooling 16 years and I haven't met these neglectful parents. I don't compare others to us because that isn't fair. We have more money than some others, more education than some, and more oppurtunities than some. Just like comparing the parent of a single homeschooler with a parent of five kids isn't fair. Let's all do the best job we can and stop comparing ourselves or worrying about everyone else.

[CAMom]

I hope it isn't hypocritical for me to not learn what my son learns!

 

He is learning Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and four instruments. In a few years he wishes to add Spanish and Italian, and another instrument. I play folk instruments only, and have no ear for languages!

 

I wonder if people know what it is like to homeschool children smarter than themselves. The best I can do is to offer encouragement and such resources as I can dredge up and/or afford. I can't learn it first!

 

If I send him to public school, the graduation rate is only 34%! He might not even graduate high school! They certainly do not offer Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and the four instruments he plays. They do not offer Italian, either.

 

This thread is beginning to get on my nerves.

 

Thank you!

 

I'm only half way through the thread right now but...my 11th grader is taking calculus, anatomy and physiology and physics this year. There is no way I could possibly teach all of those! I am not science minded in any way, shape or form.

 

So, I outsource the science classes to The Potter's School (which, incidentally, also has student forums for the students to discuss their course work and help one another as well as having office hours and e-mail help from the instructors) and use Chalkdust for calculus. Next year, I will outsource both math and science to the community college.

 

I would be holding my son back if he had to wait for me to learn everything he wants to learn. I would also only be able to teach him. Then, what about my other kids?:confused:

 

My son is head and shoulders smarter than me! I don't know half of the academic information he knows! I think he is growing and thriving because of the atmosphere I facilitate here at home. In fact, there have been times when my daughter and I have gotten stuck on a math problem and my son is the one who comes to our rescue and helps us through the rough patch.

 

I realized a long time ago that there was no possible way I was going to keep up with his quest for knowledge. So, I focus on providing him with everything he needs to pursue what he wants to pursue.

 

And, no. I don't really care a bit about chemistry and physics. But, he does! So, I provide him with the means to learn those subjects about which he is passionate! He shouldn't be forced to only learn what I am passionate about and I shouldn't be forced to be passionate about what he loves.

 

OK, back to reading on page 15!:D

[Ester Maria]

Unless you only sleep 4 hours a night, or have a cook and housekeeper--how could a middle-aged mom be both a HS student and homemaker/homeschooler? Many of us, even those who are college grads, have forgotten HS math, science--or we're finding we never learned some subjects at all. I'm sure the 'idea' of re-learning all this material appeals to many, but I find it unrealistic.

I sleep 7-8 hours a night, I do have a maid though (but NOT full-time - not even every day - and she is NOT taking care of every single household chore in the house), and we take turns when it comes to cooking. The girls are also very independent and don't expect me to clean after them or follow every fit they have when it comes to food.

 

I hear what you're saying and I guess that in large families, or families with big age difference between kids, it indeed CAN be an issue (I honestly ADMIRE women who can handle let's say 5 kids aged for example 1-15, with a few young ones and a few they're schooling, no maid and husbands who works long hours... for my perspective, impossible, and I'm almost sure I'd give up home education if that were the case).

 

I warned my daughters that they'll have to be more independent and responsible when the baby comes, because I won't have time to lose on "secondary" things (arguing with them over cleaning, cooking and things like that), since I want to spend the time I will have for them, other than just being a mother, on the "primary" things (i.e. academics).

I also realize some people have different ideas about what's primary and what's secondary here, and that's okay. It's all about priorities, and we don't all have the same ones.

Another part is that I streamline my life: no scrapbooking weekends, no favorite TV shows, no latest novels, no complicated history or science program for the 7 yo, etc. That way I don't have to be a horrible mother and wife in order to self-educate. [...] My oldest is only 13, but I've taught outside classes these past few years which I know took more time that it will take me to teach dc high school.

Same here. I actually even visit these boards while working (multitasking, I'm working on some translations now for the past few days, so every now and then I make a pause and come here). :D

In the past eight years, I have been teaching, consulting, co-mentoring a few graduating students' theses, translating, traveling abroad at least 3-4 times a year, and educating my daughters first on elementary, and then on middle and high school level at the same time. It's not impossible, but it does require cutting some things out of your life, certain lifestyle changes (the same as you put it - I don't read latest novels, I hardly ever watch TV, I don't know what scrapbooking IS, etc.).

It completely demoralizes. And it goes against what SWB says in the WTM itself.

 

What happened to the tools of learning? What happened to equipping our kids to read/write/reason & letting them run with it?

Obviously, I don't agree with SWB on every single point she has ever made. It doesn't mean that I can't take what's valuable for me out of what she writes and agree that the system she advises is a generally good one.

I agree with that. For some of us, the solution is outsourcing via online classes, co-ops, etc. The OP didn't seem to think that was good enough.

Yes, actually, there are two distinct arguments that we were talking about in this thread: one is the issue of (excessive) outsourcing - my first few posts dealt with that; the other one is the issue of teaching what you don't know (and grading it as a potential sub-issue of that). So maybe at times it even wasn't clear what the participants were talking about, especially if somebody "jumped" into the discussion without having followed it from the beginning.

I'm curious--what do you (Ester Maria, Mich elle, or others) suggest to parents who can't keep up with their kids academically? Is public school a better option in your mind? Should parents who can't teach Algebra 2 just have their kids stop at Algebra 1? Do we all need to be able to hire tutors or put kids in college classes? I'd like to know what the solution is in your minds.

I'm really pondering whether I should reply to this or no, because I'm getting the impression that certain of my posts are being taken out of context and read into, more than "just" read, and read in the context (that's why I've been purposely repeating myself in a few places).

 

Basically, yes - when I reach that level (it's not "if" in my case, it's "when"), and when I realize that the quality of the education I can give them in our specific circumstances does not suffice, and that there are other options they could profit from way more, the girls are off to a good boarding school. We even have a few in mind, we contacted some people about that years ago actually, and we talked about the subject extensively. That option is open, especially considering that I'm currently pregnant and I really have NO IDEA if I'll be able to follow them the way I did when the baby is born. We'll see. In any case, their education is too important for us to be left to case if we see it's not going as smoothly.

 

And if we ever in the following years go back to Italy (i.e. while I'm still schooling them), there will be no need for that because I know in which schools I'll put them right away, and with which tutors I'll cover the specific interests of each of them. I'll keep on schooling them only "informally", the way my family "schooled" me along with regular school (i.e. I'll require certain books read, certain plays and operas seen, certain places visited and read about, certain discussions opened etc., but I'll leave the overall context, the big picture, for the school to provide).

 

I'm NOT saying that that's the choice everyone should make once they can't follow the kids any more, but I personally do intend to send them to school at some point. And it's actually later than I originally intended (when they were younger I thought that at this point they'd be at school already, but that's because of the original plans to go back to Italy earlier, which were meanwhile postponed).

Edited January 18, 2010 by Ester Maria

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Since moving to Europe, hiring tutors, and/or sending my children away to boarding school are not options for me (nor desired by me), I reckon I'll just press on with what I'm doing and thank God for the opportunity.

 

Ester Maria, thank you for sharing your culture and perspective.

[GWOB]

Since moving to Europe, hiring tutors, and/or sending my children away to boarding school are not options for me (nor desired by me), I reckon I'll just press on with what I'm doing and thank God for the opportunity.

 

Ester Maria, thank you for sharing your culture and perspective.

 

:iagree: Yep. We backward Americans just have to make do with our sub-par educations and lack of sophistication and culture. Oh well.

[TravelingChris]

Ester Marie said "Basically, yes - when I reach that level (it's not "if" in my case, it's "when"), and when I realize that the quality of the education I can give them in our specific circumstances does not suffice, and that there are other options they could profit from way more, the girls are off to a good boarding school."

 

The last thing I would ever do is stick my child in a boarding school and I think that is the feeling of most of the homeschoolers here. While academics is important, other factors are very important to most of us here too. I think having your parents around you when you are a teenager is an optimal situation. As many have demonstrated here, you can get by very successfully in life without a good grasp of advanced algebra or some language. IF it was so necessary for everyone to have achieved mastery of a second language, there wouldn't be so many students in beginning levels of languages at college. Many if not most of those students had language in high school. DId they learn- not much.

 

Should we strive for mediocrity-no. Can we achieve perfection-no. DVD, self learning, tutoring, outside classes and online classes can all have their place.

 

As a quite veteran homeschooler, I want to encourage others to take the paths that make sense for their families and not to give in to anxieties. If you have a question about whether something is enough for high school or not, ask away in the high school section or PM someone like me who has homeschooled for 16 years and has a homeschool graduate who is almost done with college. Others have even more experience.

[Rosy]

Basically, yes - when I reach that level (it's not "if" in my case, it's "when"), and when I realize that the quality of the education I can give them in our specific circumstances does not suffice, and that there are other options they could profit from way more, the girls are off to a good boarding school. We even have a few in mind, we contacted some people about that years ago actually, and we talked about the subject extensively. That option is open, especially considering that I'm currently pregnant and I really have NO IDEA if I'll be able to follow them the way I did when the baby is born. We'll see. In any case, their education is too important for us to be left to case if we see it's not going as smoothly.

 

And if we ever in the following years go back to Italy (i.e. while I'm still schooling them), there will be no need for that because I know in which schools I'll put them right away, and with which tutors I'll cover the specific interests of each of them. I'll keep on schooling them only "informally", the way my family "schooled" me along with regular school (i.e. I'll require certain books read, certain plays and operas seen, certain places visited and read about, certain discussions opened etc., but I'll leave the overall context, the big picture, for the school to provide).

 

I'm NOT saying that that's the choice everyone should make once they can't follow the kids any more, but I personally do intend to send them to school at some point. And it's actually later than I originally intended (when they were younger I thought that at this point they'd be at school already, but that's because of the original plans to go back to Italy earlier, which were meanwhile postponed).

 

Thank you for your response. I know it's hard to open oneself up in situations like these.

[FloridaLisa]

I finally found time to sit down and read this thread. I think I would rather have waded through a school of pirhana. ;) On the whole, these types of threads tend to tear down rather than build up. I'd much, much rather read a thread about homeschooling solutions. Of how to handle the day-to-day practical rather than smear those not attaining the ideal. The problem -- or situation -- of our dc outpacing us in some or many academic areas is very real. What are the best ways to handle this? What options are available? How has it worked successfully for the families that have encountered this? That's a thread I'd be ready to take notes on.

 

Lisa

[Hockey Mom]

As a quite veteran homeschooler, I want to encourage others to take the paths that make sense for their families and not to give in to anxieties. If you have a question about whether something is enough for high school or not, ask away in the high school section or PM someone like me who has homeschooled for 16 years and has a homeschool graduate who is almost done with college. Others have even more experience.

 

As a brand new homeschooler, who relies mostly on the DVD program at this point, I just want to thank you for this. :)