How little could you make and still be ok?

[Ann.without.an.e]

I don't mean living on the streets or homeless, of course. But how little would you need in order to have all the bases covered for what is necessary for your life. 

Please expound if you'd like on what you consider necessary for life?  

The obvious here: food, shelter, clothing. Not going into debt to live and covering things like gas and even cellphone/internet is necessary in today's society. 

Polls are anonymous

 

ETA - this should be a no judgment zone lol. Everyone has different COL, different debts (school, mortgage, etc). I was in a discussion with a group of young adults the other day and this topic came up and I was just curious how the Hive's answers would compare. That is all 🙂 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Farrar]

Honestly, the difference relative to our income for food is such that I'm not sure how little we could spend and still eat a healthy bountiful diet so that's a straight up out of the dark guess. Just because I rarely skimp much or worry about food money. I know how much we spend and I know we could spend significantly less because I routinely get fruits or veggies that are more pricey, convenience foods that are more pricey, and proteins that are more pricey. But also, when we saw a person about organizing our finances, I was FLOORED by how much she thought we were probably spending on food, which was easily twice as much as we actually were. 

For those of us paying college tuition or possibly for the care of an elderly relative or a major health issue right now, the overall cost flexibility for covering everything is significantly higher than it would be otherwise, I'm guessing.

[Dmmetler]

We don’t have a mortgage, car payments, or debt beyond a small amount on credit cards paid in full each month, but do have a kid in college. Which does reduce the grocery bill, but it probably doubles the amount we need each month overall. I also included continuing to put money into the HSA and assumed medical insurance stayed the same. I will say that if we dropped to the amount I gave, we wouldn’t be putting near as much in savings as we do now. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I am assuming that #1 does not cover saving for retirement, making tuition payments, etc. or does it?
 

 

[Arcadia]

I voted assuming you meant expenses using after tax take home pay. Healthcare insurance, HSA are already taken from my husband’s pay so we don’t budget for that. Our max out of pocket is $6k and I did factor that in.

We don’t have mortgage or car loan and kids aren’t in college so our expenses is just groceries, utilities, property tax, HOA fees, gasoline, home and car insurance. Our main meat is pork so that doesn’t bump our grocery bills much. My husband’s office is nearby so gasoline usage is low for work and shopping. 

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am assuming that #1 does not cover saving for retirement, making tuition payments, etc. or does it?
 

I am assuming that too because we do top up our emergency savings every paycheck but I didn’t factor that in. Also didn’t factor stuff like extra curricular activities because we would drop those activities if we need to cut costs.

[Slache]

$10,000 is insane. Unless y'all bought yourself some purty houses and cars because you had the income, the idea of a middle class family needing that much to survive is gonna make me cry. I think I live in a middle COL area.

I don't see how this information is helpful with all of us being so different. Someone who lives in a higher COL area will need more than me despite having less children, and my grocery budget is cray cray because of the number of people and health concerns. Why are you asking this?

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, Slache said:

$10,000 is insane. Unless y'all bought yourself some purty houses and cars because you had the income, the idea of a middle class family needing that much to survive is gonna make me cry. I think I live in a middle COL area.

When looking at the thread title, I thought OP meant before tax income. $10k monthly after tax isn’t that much, especially if the person is paying for a mortgage and two kids in private schools. If we had sent both our kids to private schools, that would be more than $4k per month. If college tuition is added for those with kids in college, that would bump up monthly expenses. If self employed and paying for their own insurance, again that would cost a lot more than employer subsidized insurance. 

[Lawyer&Mom]

I picked a number that was basically twice our mortgage.  That would not cover our parochial school tuition.  If money was that tight we’d probably be renting out the house and living with my in-laws for access to their better public schools.  (They raised six kids in the house they currently live in.  There would be room for us!)

Edited December 12, 2022 by Lawyer&Mom

[catz]

I can't even begin to think about this because my spouse is 60 and we have a college student, a high school senior, and we live in a highish COL area.  We do not skimp on groceries.  I use curbside at a local kind of fancy grocery frequently.  

I will say we don't carry any debt.  We paid off our mortgage very intentionally before kid #1 got to college.  We do use credit cards for rewards but pay them in full every month.  We pay cash for our vehicles.  But responsible saving for retirement is a big deal.  Our property taxes are not low.  I guess theoretically we could survive on not a lot.  But we are burning a lot of money right now.  

I will also say we can't responsibly pay our EFC for many colleges.  My son is at a public flagship with recoprocity and was awarded a sizable scholarship.  Hoping my younger can get some decent merit too.  

Edited December 12, 2022 by catz

[Arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

 If money was that tight we’d probably be renting out the house and living with my in-laws for access to their better public schools.  (They raised six kids in the house they currently live in.  There would be room for us!)

My former neighbor moved back to her parents home and rented out her marital home for extra income though they weren’t tight on money at that time. That enabled them to pay off their mortgage earlier and buy a larger home. Their only child goes to a parochial school where my former neighbor teaches.

[Clarita]

 

13 minutes ago, Slache said:

$10,000 is insane. Unless y'all bought yourself some purty houses and cars because you had the income, the idea of a middle class family needing that much to survive is gonna make me cry. I think I live in a middle COL area.

The first question is too difficult to answer, because yes we have a house we can afford. So, yes it may be a nicer house than it "has" to be. The question then would be would I be able to downsize the shelter to save money and that answer is not a clear yes. Or to what extent shy of being unhoused. 

Mine is not $10k, but I can see why a pretty average family doing alright for themselves in my area can get to the $10k range. Since I'm getting up there with no tuition (college or otherwise), no debt from going to college for my husband and I (parents and scholarships so no high horse for me to get on here), no extended family to take care of, not to mention some things that we've been able to do because of our current income to alleviate some bills (solar/batteries, electric cars, good windows, etc).  

[Lawyer&Mom]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My former neighbor moved back to her parents home and rented out her marital home for extra income though they weren’t tight on money at that time. That enabled them to pay off their mortgage earlier and buy a larger home. Their only child goes to a parochial school where my former neighbor teaches.

I need to not live with my in-laws way more than I need a bigger house!  Actually living with them would be mostly fine and it’s nice to know we have the option.  We may actually do it someday, but more for elder care than savings.  

[Clarita]

Also would living at in-laws or another family member's home count as being essentially "homeless". Including that, the essential number can come down quite a bit... Suddenly no utilities, no rent/mortgage, etc.  

[Guest]

We could make it for a few years on $4K per month, but that would be assuming I’m not paying for college kids, have health insurance premiums covered by dh’s business, and are not contributing to savings/retirement accounts. But we could make that work for a shorter-term period without dying or freezing or starving. 
 

likewise, we could probably scratch out a food budget at $400/mth, but only if we were all being very conscientious; I chose $600 as more reflective of what we actually do. I am also still subsidizing the food budget of a recent college grad, so total grocery expense includes that. 

[Slache]

25 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

When looking at the thread title, I thought OP meant before tax income. $10k monthly after tax isn’t that much, especially if the person is paying for a mortgage and two kids in private schools. If we had sent both our kids to private schools, that would be more than $4k per month. If college tuition is added for those with kids in college, that would bump up monthly expenses. If self employed and paying for their own insurance, again that would cost a lot more than employer subsidized insurance. 

Oh my gosh I didn't even think about college tuition.

8 minutes ago, Clarita said:

The first question is too difficult to answer, because yes we have a house we can afford. So, yes it may be a nicer house than it "has" to be. The question then would be would I be able to downsize the shelter to save money and that answer is not a clear yes. Or to what extent shy of being unhoused. 

I completely agree. We're on the poor end so our apartment isn't what I want. If I could double our housing budget and get a yard with a separate bedroom for oldest I would. But then I've made the commitment and our version of "ok" goes up, despite the fact that we're already ok at less.

[madteaparty]

Well since we pay full freight for college, your list does not go high enough. 

[SKL]

I would have to do some calculations.  A lot has changed since I last needed to budget to the penny.  Some of our household bills are automatic debit and/or paid by housemates (we decided on a "fair distribution" years ago because it's easier than tallying all the costs every month).

I have a relatively low "minimum" cost of living, because the house, car, and student loans are paid off.  I have pretty simple desires as far as food, clothing, etc.  I use minimal electricity except to run my computer.  However, I'm 1/5 of a household that is otherwise full of non-thrifty people.  And I'm not up to the fight about many extravagances.

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Also would living at in-laws or another family member's home count as being essentially "homeless". Including that, the essential number can come down quite a bit... Suddenly no utilities, no rent/mortgage, etc.  

All my friends who stayed with their wife’s parents for awhile have their own mortgage to pay and they also chip in for utilities at parents home. For some, the parents or siblings do provide babysitting, and again my friends would give some cash or equivalent for the help.

[Brittany1116]

I read this as, what would you need to survive without extras. Pay the bills and buy food and gas, but no streaming or vacations or retirement funding etc. I answered based on that, so I shaved some off of what we do make because I know we could manage on less. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

14 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Well since we pay full freight for college, your list does not go high enough. 

That’s why I did minimum and not max. So you’d be at 15k or more. Ugh, college is awful for so many. We’ve managed to avoid that with 3 out 4 but I think #4 may get us since he’ll be the only kiddo at home and increased income. 

[Wheres Toto]

I put $4000 and $600.   But the answer really depends on family size - a single person?   a couple?  children? 
I took it as the absolute minimum for a single person/couple to be okay.   

I'm in a very high cost of living area.    A mostly safe, blue collar/retirees apartment complex with a long but not outrageous commute to most jobs would charge about $1800 a month for a two bedroom.     I was able to get by with $5000 a month (not take home, gross) when it was dd and I after my divorce.  Apartment, pretty large/high interest car loan payment, etc.   The main advantage was many apartments around here include utilities.  

Edited December 12, 2022 by Wheres Toto

[Wheres Toto]

A person making $10,000 a month around here (not take home, again gross) would be able to have a small, under 2,000 square foot house, a couple car payments, cover their utilities, not analyze every purchase and be able to buy a new appliance if one breaks.  But they wouldn't be living a lavish lifestyle with high end new cars, a huge house, and private schools.  

Our 800 square foot bungalow just market assessed for $350,000. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

You can look up the median cost of living for your area.  Then you can look up the poverty line for your area.  I could technically live at the poverty line (which is the number I put on the poll) but that's partly because I have a lifetime of "household infrastructure" (furniture, clothing, upgrades to make our home more cost effective, good transportation already in our name) etc.  Someone who was living at the poverty line without all those things would find it difficult to move towards having those things to make life more comfortable and even more cost effective. 

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

I read this as, what would you need to survive without extras. Pay the bills and buy food and gas, but no streaming or vacations or retirement funding etc. I answered based on that, so I shaved some off of what we do make because I know we could manage on less. 

That’s how I read it, too; survive, not Living Your Best Life. Private school/college tuition isn’t bare bones where I am.

I voted without the expense of our “extra” house in there. If needed, I could price it very low and offload it fast.   
I didn’t include savings/investments, because I’m imagining SHTF, necessities only.

I could find a way to spend $50k/mo, but I wouldn’t ever consider that “surviving”.
 

[prairiewindmomma]

I am not sure how to answer this either—hypothetical renting family in my neighborhood with the same family size and ages is a completely different number set. For my family size, I would have to rent a 3 BR. Apartment complexes won’t let me do a 2 BR with 6 people. Assuming I don’t meet sliding scale income adjustments and that they actually do have the cheapest units available, my minimum monthly apartment rental, no utilities or anything else included in the rent # is $2650. Most 3 BR are at the $2800-3600/month point . 

ETA: the free school lunch guideline for my state for my family size is <$9298/month or $111,570 year. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I was in a discussion with a group of young adults the other day and this topic came up and I was just curious how the Hive's answers would compare. That is all 🙂 

For young adults, if they are still living with their parents, they could save a lot more and spend a lot less. For example, my parents didn’t ask me to chip in so all my earnings are used for work lunches and transport. My employer reimbursed for cellphone plans and internet usage since I was on call duty after office hours. My kids intend to work nearby in the future so that they could stay home and not worry about rents and cranky flatmates. 

[HomeAgain]

My answer was $4000 and $400. We've done this exercise periodically to make sure our savings is enough in case things happen.  One Christmas, dh was on total bedrest for a few weeks after having back surgery.  Income was tight.  Things were up in the air when the pandemic started.

Right now, $4000 would cover the mortgage, food, insurance, utilities, my car payment and $100 incidentals (doctor visit, pharmacy, shoes..).  I could feed the family for $100/week but that's tight. We would not be eating meat or dairy products at all, so my family's love of traditional dishes would have to carry us through. It does make me grateful that the state opened up free breakfast and lunch to every school kid.  I would be relying on it to ease off the burden of keeping a bottomless pit fed.

[fraidycat]

I answered based on a "just the basics" outlfow, approximately. Because we don't live that lifestyle, I estimated to the best of my ability.

Our only debt is the mortgage, so mortgage, property taxes, food, gas, insurance, utilities, and miscellaneous additional non-monthly but necessary expenses like home and car maintenance expenses, and occasional clothing purchases.

My answer wouldn't cover helping the kids with college expenses, vacations, outside entertainment like movies or concerts, saving for retirement, or any other "extras".

I don't live in the U.S., so I answered in CAD vs. USD

Edited December 12, 2022 by fraidycat

[Dmmetler]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

For young adults, if they are still living with their parents, they could save a lot more and spend a lot less. For example, my parents didn’t ask me to chip in so all my earnings are used for work lunches and transport. My employer reimbursed for cellphone plans and internet usage since I was on call duty after office hours. My kids intend to work nearby in the future so that they could stay home and not worry about rents and cranky flatmates. 

Or if they're living on campus. The $4k stipend for summer REUs looks downright generous for college students when it includes room, board, and travel to get there. The same stipend wouldn't go nearly as far if you had an apartment off campus and were cooking for yourself. 

[Storygirl]

It's an interesting question, but I cannot answer it. We have so many expenses right now that are important but also could be dropped, if necessary. We are in the height of paying tuition for one child's college, plus having three kids about to graduate from high school, so saving for college is a biggie. If we had to live on a minimum income, I would assume that our circumstances would be different, though, so our college bills would be different. We are also saving large amounts for retirement,  and have started paying a chunk for long-term care insurance, as we are in our 50s. We could stop these payments. We could move to a different home, for sure, though there are costs for moving. So there are too many variables for me to do any figuring along those lines.

What we are thinking about, though we haven't mapped it out yet, is how much it will cost our kids to have their own apartment and pay their own way. Their answer to your questions, at their stage of life, would be drastically different than our answer at our stage of life.

[rebcoola]

4k is really like what we have to have it would be doable but not fun.  Groceries here can be healthy pretty cheap here lots pf growers selling off seconds and such. It's not uncommon to be offered a bushel.of apples or a free 50lb of potatos or to come pick what's left on the trees.  I am very happy to be at a place where I can just pay for a farm share delivered to our house and and just but whatever I want and Fred Meyer and pick it up when I am next door to get the kids.

[fraidycat]

24 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

 

What we are thinking about, though we haven't mapped it out yet, is how much it will cost our kids to have their own apartment and pay their own way. Their answer to your questions, at their stage of life, would be drastically different than our answer at our stage of life.

This is so true. The gap in income (average) vs. expenses keeps widening year after year. And to use Jean's terminology, we have had several years of building our "household infrastructure" when that gap was smaller than it is now.

I feel for the young people trying to, or wanting and being unable to afford to, launch.

[denarii]

We bring home between 4000-4500 and put away between 500 and 1000 a month into savings. We could survive on 2000-3000 depending on the time of year. Utility costs in the winter can be brutal up here. 

[BusyMom5]

I didn't factor in college expenses, just basic living expenses- insurance, utilities,  etc.  I spend $300 a week+ on groceries for 8, and while its possible I could cut it a bit, its not much.

[Farrar]

I feel like it's hard to know where the line is for anything these days. Modern life has become so complex that when you're not looking at every penny (which I want to appreciate that many people really have to do) then it starts to get very fuzzy. A cell phone with a data plan is hardly food and shelter. But if you don't have that, how do you operate. Same with paying the wifi bill. And everything is so utterly disposable now. It's so easy to spend very little on clothes, shoes, needed home goods, etc. But then it's cheap, it breaks, you have to replace it. But it's also possible not to spend anything and shop thrift. It's just... effort. Time or money. And no one can spend all the time. Even the time has a cost. 

I don't know... I don't mean to overcomplicate it, but it definitely feels to me when I look at current budgeting choices that they are significantly more complex than a couple of decades ago and infinitely more complex than when my mother was my age. It's just harder now to even know what you need in the first place.

[Harriet Vane]

42 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I feel like it's hard to know where the line is for anything these days. Modern life has become so complex that when you're not looking at every penny (which I want to appreciate that many people really have to do) then it starts to get very fuzzy. A cell phone with a data plan is hardly food and shelter. But if you don't have that, how do you operate. Same with paying the wifi bill. And everything is so utterly disposable now. It's so easy to spend very little on clothes, shoes, needed home goods, etc. But then it's cheap, it breaks, you have to replace it. But it's also possible not to spend anything and shop thrift. It's just... effort. Time or money. And no one can spend all the time. Even the time has a cost. 

I don't know... I don't mean to overcomplicate it, but it definitely feels to me when I look at current budgeting choices that they are significantly more complex than a couple of decades ago and infinitely more complex than when my mother was my age. It's just harder now to even know what you need in the first place.

Excellent points.

One in particular stands out--the phone. This really hammered me when I read Refugee, by Alan Gratz. Fabulous book. When you have nothing, the phone is the lifeline that gives connections, information, resources. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Excellent points.

One in particular stands out--the phone. This really hammered me when I read Refugee, by Alan Gratz. Fabulous book. When you have nothing, the phone is the lifeline that gives connections, information, resources. 

Even if you don’t have nothing, phones are now an essential. Granted, you could get, I don’t know, a Motorola on a Cricket plan and manage, but to have no phone at all is not really do-able for most. It’s not quite food and heat, but it’s pretty close to, say, a car or indoor plumbing. 
 

It’s what annoys me when people who think they’re giving money advice say…”and get rid of your cell phone…” No. The wolves would have to be well past the door and sitting on the couch before I went phoneless. 

[madteaparty]

4 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

That’s why I did minimum and not max. So you’d be at 15k or more. Ugh, college is awful for so many. We’ve managed to avoid that with 3 out 4 but I think #4 may get us since he’ll be the only kiddo at home and increased income. 

Right and I’m saying your largest minimum number doesn’t cover it. 
it’s not awful, we just need to stay employed is all 😉 

[madteaparty]

4 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

A person making $10,000 a month around here (not take home, again gross) would be able to have a small, under 2,000 square foot house, a couple car payments, cover their utilities, not analyze every purchase and be able to buy a new appliance if one breaks.  But they wouldn't be living a lavish lifestyle with high end new cars, a huge house, and private schools.  

Our 800 square foot bungalow just market assessed for $350,000. 

Whereas here on 10k gross you could not pay your monthly housing and utility cost. 

[Shelydon]

We are fortunate not to have any debt, paid off the mortgage years ago, so we could survive on $3000 a month, but it would not be a fun existence.  To help pay for college, save for new cars and or car repairs etc, 8K would be better. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Shelydon

[Ausmumof3]

12 minutes ago, Quill said:

Even if you don’t have nothing, phones are now an essential. Granted, you could get, I don’t know, a Motorola on a Cricket plan and manage, but to have no phone at all is not really do-able for most. It’s not quite food and heat, but it’s pretty close to, say, a car or indoor plumbing. 
 

It’s what annoys me when people who think they’re giving money advice say…”and get rid of your cell phone…” No. The wolves would have to be well past the door and sitting on the couch before I went phoneless. 

Yep. And I need my phone data for work, meaning giving that up or dropping the plan means finding a different job. 

[Carrie12345]

26 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yep. And I need my phone data for work, meaning giving that up or dropping the plan means finding a different job. 

We don’t have great cell service on our block, so we have to have home internet for its wireless connection. Can’t even get away with picking just one!

[Ausmumof3]

4 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

We don’t have great cell service on our block, so we have to have home internet for its wireless connection. Can’t even get away with picking just one!

Yeah we are the same. Kids need Internet for distance Ed so we have to have it when I’m at work as well. 

[historically accurate]

We are at our minimum - there is no extra money. We do collect medical debt every year. So, to not fall deeper into medical debt, we'd have to make more (probably a lot more since we would no longer have any written off). Since I don't want to calculate that because it would only depress me, I used the amount we are at. 

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Even if you don’t have nothing, phones are now an essential. Granted, you could get, I don’t know, a Motorola on a Cricket plan and manage, but to have no phone at all is not really do-able for most. It’s not quite food and heat, but it’s pretty close to, say, a car or indoor plumbing. 
 

It’s what annoys me when people who think they’re giving money advice say…”and get rid of your cell phone…” No. The wolves would have to be well past the door and sitting on the couch before I went phoneless. 

Actual photo from a “refugee”* camp (Moria in Lesvos when it used to exist)

*I hate the term “refugee” other than when referring to a legal status; it’s dehumanizing. 

[Guest]

What a fascinating photo! Thank you for sharing it.

[Condessa]

To cover our housing, utilities, homeowner’s insurance, clothing, etc., we need about $1600 per month.  If we had to feed the family for the absolute least we could healthily I think I could shave a couple hundred off and come in at $600.  However, keeping everyone alive and healthy means adding about $500 more per month on transportation (gas, car insurance, maintenance) for ds’s medical care.

These numbers assume that we still retain double medical coverage for the kids, both dh’s work insurance+ up to $8,000 per year reimbursement of medical bills by his work and the secondary state coverage.  If we lost either one we’d be looking at adding maybe $800 to $1,000 more per month in medical bills.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Condessa

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Condessa said:

To cover our housing, utilities, homeowner’s insurance, clothing, etc., we need about $1600 per month.  If we had to feed the family for the absolute least we could healthily I think I could shave a couple hundred off and come in at $600.  However, keeping everyone alive and healthy means adding about $500 more per month on transportation (gas, car insurance, maintenance) for ds’s medical care.

These numbers assume that we still retain double medical coverage for the kids, both dh’s work insurance+ up to $8,000 per year reimbursement of medical bills by his work and the secondary state coverage.  If we lost either one we’d be looking at adding maybe $800 to $1,000 more per month in medical bills.

I know there’s no comparison dollar for dollar but that’s amazing for me. We live in a lower COL state for Aus and you would struggle to rent a family home for that let alone any extra costs.

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I know there’s no comparison dollar for dollar but that’s amazing for me. We live in a lower COL state for Aus and you would struggle to rent a family home for that let alone any extra costs.

Same in my part of the US. It really varies widely. 

[Not_a_Number]

We have a mortgage on a Manhattan condo… I would feel weird answering this question (I haven’t voted yet since I haven’t done the calculation.) It was a whole bunch less when we were renting frugally, but right now, it’s a lot.