What purpose does this forum serve for you?

[Melissa Louise]

Fwiw, I don't think a forceful and/or sometimes insensitive posting style is bullying. 

I personally see in Number what I see in other posters, which is zeal for a way of doing things they have discovered works for them.

Yes, it can be annoying. Lots of people do it. 

I'm not really sure that there should be accusations around fragile silent majorities either. 

There's a lot of back channeling here, and generally, that is ok but to me it seems not ok to drag it out to the public space.

Many (most) posters have fragile times or circumstances along the way.

Again, I really don't understand why one person's fragility becomes important in a way others are not?

It sucks for anyone dealing with hard circumstances, but we all have the same options not to post, to post and deal, or to put posters on ignore. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

It sucks for anyone dealing with hard circumstances, but we all have the same options not to post, to post and deal, or to put posters on ignore. 

Also, there's the option of asking me. 

I know I'm a big and fierce dragon, but literally no one's tried to ASK me anything. And I'm actually not all that scary. I'd have likely listened. I don't promise that I would have said yes for all time, but I wouldn't have just ignored people. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

People are pretty primitive animals in some ways. 

I see this stuff all over my family, honestly. My mom has these issues too: she's sensitive and forceful but afraid to say what she needs. So she just stews and it just splashes out as unpleasant resentment and total inability to listen. 

I think it often comes from having parents who just weren't interested in one's perspective. So you bury your needs, but for some people, that just means the bad feelings get buried deep. Some people aren't meant to be easygoing 😕 . 

Oh yeah. This is why therapy (I know we disagree on that).

I think this thread has been very clarifying that group dynamics are very, very messy.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Oh yeah. This is why therapy (I know we disagree on that).

I think this thread has been very clarifying that group dynamics are very, very messy.

I'm not generally against therapy. Honestly, I should probably try again. I have fear about it that's probably not justified. But really, it's probably just the case that I'd need to go through 10 therapists before I found one I meshed with and my fears are silly. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not generally against therapy. Honestly, I should probably try again. I have fear about it that's probably not justified. But really, it's probably just the case that I'd need to go through 10 therapists before I found one I meshed with and my fears are silly. 

Yes, finding someone who is a good fit is really hard 

[KSera]

33 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

ETA: I mean, everyone who finds me frustrating. Seriously, just PM me/message on here and tell me you don't want my input, and I won't answer you again or will put you on ignore 😂. I've already noted all the people liking @wendyroo's posts. 

I don't know if by "noted" you mean that you've noted anyone who has liked any of wendyroo's posts and are assuming all of those are people who don't want you to interact with them, and if so, I don't think that's necessarily true. I think I likely have liked at least one of them, but I'm fine with interacting with you or having you post on my threads. (Fwiw, I'm not one of the ones who has had any back channel discussions about this--my only discussions on this topic are on this thread.)

28 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For me, owning my actual personality in the last year has gone MUCH better than trying to be a wolf in sheep's clothing 😉 . 

That's interesting you say that, as I was thinking earlier in this thread about the fact that before your long board break, I didn't remember the same kinds of issues that I've seen since you returned. I mean, I think you did do the same thing where you would ask a lot of questions directly back of people wanting answers about things in a way that's not really typical, but not so much the taking over people's threads as far as I recall and generally I don't recall having any difficulties interacting with you before your break. So, that is interesting that you are saying that there actually HAS been a change in your personality/behavior since then, and I'm not just imagining it.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

I don't know if by "noted" you mean that you've noted anyone who has liked any of wendyroo's posts and are assuming all of those are people who don't want you to interact with them, and if so, I don't think that's necessarily true. I think I likely have liked at least one of them, but I'm fine with interacting with you or having you post on my threads. (Fwiw, I'm not one of the ones who has had any back channel discussions about this--my only discussions on this topic are on this thread.)

No, no, not everyone. There's a consistent group. 

The only thing I'd like from you is for us to stop clashing about COVID :-) . We were on the same side for such a long time, and we aren't anymore, and it feels tense, and it makes me sad. And I don't think we can convince each other, so I wish we could agree to disagree. 

 

Just now, KSera said:

That's interesting you say that, as I was thinking earlier in this thread about the fact that before your long board break, I didn't remember the same kinds of issues that I've seen since you returned. I mean, I think you did do the same thing where you would ask a lot of questions directly back of people wanting answers about things in a way that's not really typical, but not so much the taking over people's threads as far as I recall and generally I don't recall having any difficulties interacting with you before your break. So, that is interesting that you are saying that there actually HAS been a change in your personality/behavior since then, and I'm not just imagining it.

Yeah, I'm trying to navigate this. I've done some stupid stuff since I've been back. So yes, you're right. 

It has made my personal life immeasurably better, so I guess I have faith it'll help with the forum, too. Eventually. But for now, there are definitely growing pains. 

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The only thing I'd like from you is for us to stop clashing about COVID 🙂 . We were on the same side for such a long time, and we aren't anymore, and it feels tense, and it makes me sad. And I don't think we can convince each other, so I wish we could agree to disagree. 

Right. For the record, I'm not the one who switched "sides" ;). I think it's fine for us to agree to disagree, and appropriate under the circumstances; I certainly don't expect you're going to change your mind. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop posting about it though. I'm going to post covid things I find interesting and what I think about them, and you are welcome to disagree. It may feel less tense to you if you can keep in mind that disagreeing with me doesn't mean your job isn't complete until you convince me to see it the same way you do. Or you may find you are happier just not reading covid threads. Most people still interested in covid studies and news and posting about them are not prepared to disregard it as a health concern and just accept getting it multiple times a year.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Right. For the record, I'm not the one who switched "sides" ;). I think it's fine for us to agree to disagree, and appropriate under the circumstances; I certainly don't expect you're going to change your mind. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop posting about it though. I'm going to post covid things I find interesting and what I think about them, and you are welcome to disagree. It may feel less tense to you if you can keep in mind that disagreeing with me doesn't mean your job isn't complete until you convince me to see it the same way you do. Or you may find you are happier just not reading covid threads. Most people still interested in covid studies and news and posting about them are not prepared to disregard it as a health concern and just accept getting it multiple times a year.

I'm not reading COVID threads, but it does feel like the stats follow me to anecdotal threads. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Right. For the record, I'm not the one who switched "sides" ;).

I know. Although I think if you look back, I was pretty clear about the fact that I wasn't going to be masking forever. 

Anyway, my position on this is still evolving . . . I don't really know what's next. 

[KSera]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Although I think if you look back, I was pretty clear about the fact that I wasn't going to be masking forever. 

Well, I'm certainly hoping not to mask forever either, but we're not at forever yet.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Well, I'm certainly hoping not to mask forever either, but we're not at forever yet.

It's true. It's just my world kind of broke somewhere along the way, and it started feeling like forever :-/ . 

But I really don't know what I'm doing next. 

[fraidycat]

I "liked" at least some, if not all, of those posts as an acknowledgement of her experience, not necessarily as 100% agreement. I have never had a personal/direct encounter with you that would cause me to not want to interact with you or dismiss your input outright, nor discuss you with someone else, but I use pm's on here less than 1x/year, so...
 

I mean, you do you, but it is my opinion that "noting" likes on posts that disagree with you really weird. Like, you ask for engagement, then keep score on disagreements. What's up with that? 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

I mean, you do you, but it is my opinion that "noting" likes on posts that disagree with you really weird. Like, you ask for engagement, then keep score on disagreements. What's up with that? 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's not the disagreeing posts, it's the ones that say that I'm really arrogant and they don't enjoy engaging with me. Don't worry, it didn't include you. 

I'm noting them down because people won't come straight out and talk to me, so I really have to assume things from the likes. And if you're saying that seems silly, I agree. I'd rather people just talked to me. But since I don't want to get on people's nerves, I'm going to have to do my best with the info I have. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I liked this thread's title.  I thought that it was a nice question to ask and an interesting one that could be helpful and even illuminating  But it's been made all about Numbers by Numbers herself and I'm not so happy about that.  I agree with Wendy's posts, though I would not have been so direct but in all fairness, she was answering a question that was asked and I doubt would have hijacked the thread to interject this if she were not asked.  But I am allergic to drama (which is one reason why I did not mention the drama posts in my answer about the function of this forum for me) so I will be bowing out of this thread  The only reason I am posting this is because of the "I'm taking down names" tone of noting who liked Wendy's posts.   I do not like that way of interacting with people in a community, whether you agree with them or not. 

[Not_a_Number]

Man, I'm terrible at quitting threads. Another thing to work on. 

Editing out the rest since I think it was misinterpreted. 

I'm off. Night, all. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 hours ago, Robin M said:

I've been here from more than 20 years and this forum as a whole is what got us through our homeschool journey.  I think I discovered WTM book first, then the forum, and feel in like/love with everyone here.  I think James was four at the time and Y'all held my hand, gave us encouragement, and the wide variety of curriculum sent me down so many rabbit holes. Good ones. My aspie was easily bored, so had to change up constantly, but in the end we were successful. We never expected to homeschool from K to 12 but took it year to year and I don't think we could have done it without all of you. 

I stayed for the comradery, and also the book talk as well. 😁 52 books will end this year, but I may occasionally start a 'what are you reading' threads because you know I love to hear about what you're reading. 

I'm in my 60's now, James is taking college classes online, but still occasionally needs mom's help so still have my foot in the game.  But stayed because I like it here, it's become a habit, a respite from life, and it's also ever changing.  I've seen the lean away from traditional, can I call it that, homeschooling, into something different, so really can't offer advice to the newbies. 

 But I enjoy the diversity of opinions and have learned so much.  I like discussions, not necessarily debates which aren't much of a debate when the focus is I'm right, and you're wrong.  I'm of the camp there are no wrong opinions, just different opinions. And that's okay. It's when it creates a divide, that I chose not to engage.  I've learned to let people have the last word rather than go down a rabbit hole,  I've learned to let it go, rather than fight about it.  I've also had to learn to let people go, rather than hold on.  But also to let new people in.  This place really is like a neighborhood, full of a variety of families, and it's fun to get together and talk, discuss, debate, help one another.  That's what this forum means to me. 

 

 

 

52 books threads will be ending this year?  I keep meaning to finally join that!  It sounds so interesting to me but it just hasn't been a challenge that I could take on yet as I have had some other priorities.  I will be sad if I waited too long! 

[Robin M]

13 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

52 books threads will be ending this year?  I keep meaning to finally join that!  It sounds so interesting to me but it just hasn't been a challenge that I could take on yet as I have had some other priorities.  I will be sad if I waited too long! 

Yes and it was a hard decision, but have too many things on my plate to continue the challenge on WTM.  However, the blog will remain active so if you want to join in that way, you're always welcome. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Robin M

[Laura Corin]

9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

I'm definitely leaning towards more of a model of saying my piece in longform and then leaving things be. I don't do that enough.

That's what I usually do. Many years ago I used to get overly engaged and upset about conversations here. I took a break, and now usually craft a single message on a controversial topic, then walk away or read only. It is better for my mood and the self discipline feels good.

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, no, not everyone. There's a consistent group. 

The only thing I'd like from you is for us to stop clashing about COVID 🙂 . We were on the same side for such a long time, and we aren't anymore, and it feels tense, and it makes me sad. And I don't think we can convince each other, so I wish we could agree to disagree. 

 

Yeah, I'm trying to navigate this. I've done some stupid stuff since I've been back. So yes, you're right. 

It has made my personal life immeasurably better, so I guess I have faith it'll help with the forum, too. Eventually. But for now, there are definitely growing pains. 

I do know when going through some personal relationship stuff a few years back I drastically changed my interaction style for a period of time. Once the habits become more regulated, boundaries established or whatever and life becomes more normal, you may find you can make do with a softer version of the things you’ve learned. Sometime we can have a bit of new convert syndrome about relationship techniques when they help us and over time they integrate and become a softer version of the same thing? 
 

One thing I notice with your posting style, which differs from many is its strongly first person, whereas others tend to use a lot more third person language when dealing with conflict? Do you think that could be causing the prickly reactions. (I count myself as someone who likes and respects you but still sometimes put out about stuff)

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

What I really want to know, though, is why people are obviously talking ABOUT me but not to me. Anyone at all could have asked me to stay off those threads if it was important to them. You have widely misconstrued my character if you think I don't care about that kind of input. 

Because they tried that and it didn't produce the required result. Also because people talk to one another. We are all here for conversation after all.

Also, speaking of etiquette, it is poor etiquette on this forum to tell people to stay off any particular threads. If someone doesn't want you wandering through their threads, it is their responsibility to put you on ignore, not yours to remember not to talk to them. It's more practical that way.

I doubt anyone thinks you don't care, but caring doesn't always translate to a socially appropriate enough behaviour. It is also completely impossible to read a room 100% correctly all of the time, especially online where anyone could show up and could be in any kind of mood.

I also don't think you are as misunderstood as you feel you are. People probably don't ask the clarifying questions you have been requesting on this thread because you already explained yourself perfectly well.

People evolve. Many of us have been on here long enough to have seen it. Some people are not terribly compatible with others, that's life. There are people who have bugger all in common and are ever so fond of one another anyway. 100% authenticity isn't welcome because it is poor boundaries. I do not mean that we should be inauthentic, only that authenticity needs to be shared in digestible doses for the health of both individuals and the community.

Don't over think. You're not "in trouble" until you're dobbed in to SWB. 🙂

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have to say, I do have trouble in real life with how mouthy I am, too 😂. Not everyone likes how vehement I can get about things. It's a polarizing trait. 

That being said, situations in which I've pretended not to be confident and opinionated haven't actually gone well for me. I just wind up feeling ignored and resentful. My opinions are, for better or worse, really important to me. 

So then the question is what one does with one's strong opinion if one has a town square and a megaphone . . . 🤔

This may have been addressed in the 2,000 posts that have happened since you wrote this last night 😄 but, let me share this.  When I first started using online message boards (around 1998), my user name (not here) was philodoxmom. Phil- “love” and dox- “beliefs and opinions”. I wanted everyone to know I was in love with my own beliefs and opinions. 🙄 I find that so obnoxious now I can hardly stand mentioning it. But I *do* mention it because I realize that my life has been much better - exponentially so - since I stopped being so in love with my own beliefs and opinions. 
 

There used to be a Spin Doctors song called “Little Miss Can’t Be Wrong.” At some point in the early 2000s, I realized that’s how I came across to others. My dh would sing this chorus to me sometimes or would say, “Okay, right, Polly Perfect.” I would spout my opinions from my town square - IRL or virtual - and I was very closed to hearing any other viewpoint. I was exactly like Hermione Granger in the first Harry Potter book; I thought I knew it all and anyone else who thought differently clearly just either wasn’t as smart as me or surely had not examined their beliefs or else they would agree with mine. 🙄🫢😬

 

In the HP book, Hermione thinks Snape is cursing Harry’s broom and she says loftily, “I *know* a spell when I see one. You *have* to maintain eye contact and Snape’s eyes were not moving.” But Hermione finds out that, brilliant though she may be, she was wrong. I would say I gradually learned that lesson too. And some of it was because I realized that there were a LOT of *very* intelligent parents here who understood things differently from me, and they had reasons as sound and solid for their beliefs as I did for mine. 
 

Hermione Granger had no friends at first because she was an insufferable know-it-all who did not at first recognize that others could have an idea that was better, smarter, more effective or more ideal. Who likes to be around someone like that? She did not make any friends until she came down off her pedestal and confessed that she had not made a good choice. 
 

So. In summary: for me it wasn’t that my choices were 1) believe that all my opinions are correct/ideal and other opinions are therefore wrong; OR 2) *pretend* perhaps my surely-correct opinions may be wrong and then get mad when someone disagrees with me. There’s no pretending necessary. For me, it was just realizing that other people really may have an idea better than mine. It was learning not to reject out of hand what others say or suggest, but instead to mull it over and see how they might be right. My life (in real and online) dramatically improved when I stopped being Little Miss Can’t Be Wrong. (Though I probably slip into it sometimes; sometimes I catch myself at it and other times I probably don’t.) 

 

Sorry for the novella. 

[teachermom2834]

@QuillGreat post. I think a lot of us who are at the adult and/or almost adult kid stage of parenting could post the same things if we are being honest with ourselves. Someone upthread mentioned that they thought the older women on here is what might have moderated this space and kept it from becoming as toxic as other online spaces and that could be because most of us have lived long enough to learn some of what you have posted about so clearly. 
 

I definitely want to climb under a rock when I think of some of the things I said in my younger days. That could be a thread in itself. 

[Cordelia]

I rarely post here, but I read a good bit. 

It is a more enjoyable experience for me when I'm reading a conversation vs. reading a thread where one person has to have the final say. 

I also think one nice aspect of forums is that there is no "main character." Or at least, there shouldn't be. If I wanted to hear one person pontificate on their opinions, I'd go to a YouTube channel or Instagram profile. 

[Katy]

7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

People are pretty primitive animals in some ways. 

I see this stuff all over my family, honestly. My mom has these issues too: she's sensitive and forceful but afraid to say what she needs. So she just stews and it just splashes out as unpleasant resentment and total inability to listen. 

I think it often comes from having parents who just weren't interested in one's perspective. So you bury your needs, but for some people, that just means the bad feelings get buried deep. Some people aren't meant to be easygoing 😕 . 

You can also just decide to change and be easygoing. You can decide to take people at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. You can decide to listen. You can decide to feel emotions instead of suppressing them or erupting them. You can decide to learn social skills and use them or not as you see fit. 

[KungFuPanda]

6 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

52 books threads will be ending this year?  I keep meaning to finally join that!  It sounds so interesting to me but it just hasn't been a challenge that I could take on yet as I have had some other priorities.  I will be sad if I waited too long! 

If you start a 26 books thread I’ll join you. 🤣 If I didn’t join 52 books during the first year of Covid it was never going to happen. I’m in a book club that meets monthly. A book a month is not enough and a book a week is too much when I’m not choosing the books. 

[Pawz4me]

@Not_a_Number-- Something that has been extremely helpful for me in reframing how I interact with people is studying secular Buddhist philosophy and mindfulness. I suppose those things are more appealing and worthwhile to certain personality types than others, so they may or may not resonate with you. For me it wasn't something quick--I didn't read a few books and articles and everything clicked in a relatively short time. It's been a ten/fifteen year long project of reading a bit, thinking on what I'd read and seeing how it could be applied and then reading some more, thinking, etc. Sometimes I'd read a book and think "well that's a bunch of baloney" only to realize over the next few months how true most/all of it actually was. It's something that has built thin layer by thin layer (and is still very much a work in progress) but that I think has helped my attitude, outlook and perceptions as much as aging and life experience. I thought it was worth mentioning, but of course you can do with it what you will.

[Scarlett]

Anyone else go back and see if they ‘liked’ @wendyroo’s post?  Lol

The fact that I couldn’t remember if I did or not says a lot and I bet it is the same for others.  This is a long thread and I have mostly scanned …..

One time I got warning points from SWB and I was deeply embarrassed.  I felt like I was only defending myself against a poster who was very aggressive….but non the less I have come to see I was defending too strongly. 

This board has helped me so much over the years.  There are posters who have no idea how much they have helped me calm down and be more tolerant and tolerable. @Jean in Newcastletold me one time I did not need to keep replying to every post. Others too helped me see I was too much and too negative about certain topics and so I have examined my feelings and the way I express myself. Not saying that is true of @Not_a_Number but we all have ways we can improve. 
 

As far as back channels…..I don’t feel like  I am a part of that at all….I have a very few people I pm with…and the most back channeling is racking our brains trying to figure out who a ‘new’ poster is who is obviously not really new and obvious that a lot of the board knows who they really are.

People have been really really mean to me on here over the years. I have even been threatened with outing my IRL  identity….but guess what? I can’t even remember who they were!  Maybe I should have taken down names. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

[Eos]

I'm one who liked almost all of @wendyroo's replies because they rang true for me.  I rarely enter the OP's threads but I thought this one might stay on topic and when it did not I decided to ride it out and read every reply.

OP, this is an I-statement: I am someone who enjoys reading others' very different opinions and considering the logic or lack thereof as well as the feelings.  Another I-statement: I often leave threads that you post in because I find your arguments generally follow the same trajectory.  You say what is true for you, as do we all, then you ask many one-on-one follow up questions which begins to swing the conversation to being about you, then you start making statements about yourself or your perspective that seem to me to be appeal-to-emotion-type fallacies.  I have no idea why this happens and would not care to analyze why.

To answer the original question: this forum serves as a special place for me to enjoy the community of others with whom I share an unusual lifestyle whether or not we still homeschool.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Eos

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Forums, by their nature, can be difficult forms of communication.  There’s the level of anonymity and the lack of non verbal cues.  
I generally stay out of anything controversial.  When I started on this forum in 2011 or 2012, I was probably one of the more liberal members. As the board has shifted and I personally have become much more conservative than I used to be, I found myself now significantly more conservative than the majority of the board. I am not going to change anyone’s mind and truthfully, I doubt people will significantly change mine.  And I consider you my friends and generally don’t wish to argue. I enjoy reading what others think and why they think that way, even if I may disagree.

The written word and forums can be particularly dicy for people who are neurodiverse.  I rely very much on my husband to clue to me in when I am being too rigid or black and white, and that’s an aspect of real life that I don’t have on here. Obviously that is a sweeping generalization, but that is an aspect that can make true conversation difficult on the internet. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[fraidycat]

I think it was a great novella, @Quill.  A succint synopsis of the evolution of maturity and wisdom that many of us have experienced. 
 

For me, the quote "the only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing" rings very true. I can have a belief or opinion about  a hypothetical what I would do in different scenarios, but it's all hypothetical because I'm not living in and experiencing the nuance. As for my sincerely held beliefs on a variety of topics from parenting to religion and politics and most things in between -well many of those have done a 180 in the past 20+ years, too.

On here, many times I offer the what I would do, and many more times I just offer hugs and acknowledgement that someone is experiencing crappy things, because that's really all I have the power to do anyway.

I am, IRL, a "forceful" person myself, but I choose my battles. I don't censor my opinions when I am asked for them, but the truth is it's very rare that anyone actually asks. 
 

Many years ago I decided that I wanted to choose kindness. I try (and fail often) to live up to that ideal version of me, but when I wake up every day with that decision already made, I find it easier to navigate most of my relationships. Even when I have to say hard things, I choose the kindest delivery I can think of. Often, that means I keep my mouth shut until I can "choose kindness".

I like 46 year old me WAY better than 20-40 year old me. Man, I thought I knew a lot back then. 🥴😂

[NorthernBeth]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

You can also just decide to change and be easygoing. You can decide to take people at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. You can decide to listen. You can decide to feel emotions instead of suppressing them or erupting them. You can decide to learn social skills and use them or not as you see fit. 

I wanted to address this in general as I think this is a very unrealistic statement.   Most people can not just "decide" to be easygoing.   I have been working on that for the last 20 years myself and although I may be a lot more easygoing about things than I used to be, for someone who just met me, I guarantee their first impression of me is not how easygoing I am.  That is a very different thing from giving people the benefit of the doubt.  As far as "deciding" to feel emotions,  Not a Number is very clearly feeling emotions and sharing them is exactly what some people are objecting too.   As far as "deciding" to learn social skills,    everyone can learn social skills, sure.  But for some people that is easy, and innate and for others, it is a hard slogging process akin to climibing up a mountain.  And sadly sometimes half-way up the mountain you fall off and have to start again or you find you have climbed the wrong mountain or such.  I am thinking here of my own personal journey in "deciding to learn" social skills, which is so much harder for those of us who don't get it innately than I think people realize.   I think Not A Number made it pretty clear that she felt a forum had different social rules than  personal IRL conversation.  Others have made it clear that they don't view it that way.  Great, now she knows, and can do with that information what she wants. 

I also think one thing Not A Number has been trying to say is that addressing her directly at the time you object to a statement or behaviour is more helpful, rather than a bunch of people feeling upset, and resentful and doing nothing about it until a conversation like this happens.  Then suddenly people start messaginging one member and then "cheering" her on as she tackles Not A Number?    The tone of glee in the member's voice as she announces she is speaking for so many others seems pretty off-putting to me.   It is hard for me to imagine that anyone wrote that and was unaware it would be painful to hear.   In fact, I would imagine that is why it was said, entirely in order TO hurt Not A Number.  Which personally seems a lot more objectionable than someone hurting people accidentally because they are having trouble reading social cues.

[Katy]

There’s a difference between confidence and arrogance. There are many differences really, but to me…. Confident people listen and don’t take it personally when they’re told they are wrong. Arrogant people insist on their way without consideration of others. 

Life is rarely like math. There are rarely black and white answers with anything. There’s a lot of nuance and gray areas. And if you can’t see that something is off in your judgment when many people are telling you to stop judging and consider the nuance, it’s probably better to accept that maybe you don’t know best and you just don’t understand something. 

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

I wanted to address this in general as I think this is a very unrealistic statement.   Most people can not just "decide" to be easygoing.   I have been working on that for the last 20 years myself and although I may be a lot more easygoing about things than I used to be, for someone who just met me, I guarantee their first impression of me is not how easygoing I am.  That is a very different thing from giving people the benefit of the doubt.  As far as "deciding" to feel emotions,  Not a Number is very clearly feeling emotions and sharing them is exactly what some people are objecting too.   As far as "deciding" to learn social skills,    everyone can learn social skills, sure.  But for some people that is easy, and innate and for others, it is a hard slogging process akin to climibing up a mountain.  And sadly sometimes half-way up the mountain you fall off and have to start again or you find you have climbed the wrong mountain or such.  I am thinking here of my own personal journey in "deciding to learn" social skills, which is so much harder for those of us who don't get it innately than I think people realize.   I think Not A Number made it pretty clear that she felt a forum had different social rules than  personal IRL conversation.  Others have made it clear that they don't view it that way.  Great, now she knows, and can do with that information what she wants. 

I also think one thing Not A Number has been trying to say is that addressing her directly at the time you object to a statement or behaviour is more helpful, rather than a bunch of people feeling upset, and resentful and doing nothing about it until a conversation like this happens.  Then suddenly people start messaginging one member and then "cheering" her on as she tackles Not A Number?    The tone of glee in the member's voice as she announces she is speaking for so many others seems pretty off-putting to me.   It is hard for me to imagine that anyone wrote that and was unaware it would be painful to hear.   In fact, I would imagine that is why it was said, entirely in order TO hurt Not A Number.  Which personally seems a lot more objectionable than someone hurting people accidentally because they are having trouble reading social cues.

Everyone has something that is hard. It’s a rare person who finds all social skills are easy and natural. I think most people, including myself, have found that difficult to learn and practice at times. It IS something you can study and practice though, and similarly to learning an instrument, the more you learn and practice the better you get.

There are books that have been around for ages (Proverbs, How to Win Friends and Influence People), and these days there is therapy and therapy groups to learn social skills too if you feel you are struggling more than most. There’s also just learning good manners and the etiquette that comes with thinking about the perspective of others, which covers 85% of this. Every child has to be taught to treat people the way they’d like to be treated. That’s not innate to anyone, though some learn it easier than others. 

The comment about feeling emotions was in direct response to the comment about suppressing them, not an assumption that any human doesn’t feel, let alone OP.

I don’t know anything about the gossip and messages, I thankfully missed that drama. 

[Grace Hopper]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

Everyone has something that is hard. It’s a rare person who finds all social skills are easy and natural. I think most people, including myself, have found that difficult to learn and practice at times. It IS something you can study and practice though, and similarly to learning an instrument, the more you learn and practice the better you get.

 

 

It would be remiss to not mention such an example of this, on a classical education forum site: Fitzwilliam Darcy, Esquire, following the admonition of Miss Elizabeth Bennett. 

[wendyroo]

14 minutes ago, NorthernBeth said:

I also think one thing Not A Number has been trying to say is that addressing her directly at the time you object to a statement or behaviour is more helpful, rather than a bunch of people feeling upset, and resentful and doing nothing about it until a conversation like this happens. 

[clip]

The tone of glee in the member's voice as she announces she is speaking for so many others seems pretty off-putting to me.   It is hard for me to imagine that anyone wrote that and was unaware it would be painful to hear.   In fact, I would imagine that is why it was said, entirely in order TO hurt Not A Number.  Which personally seems a lot more objectionable than someone hurting people accidentally because they are having trouble reading social cues.

Point 1:
As several people, including a moderator, have pointed out is that people have been addressing Number directly in threads at the time of objections for years. In general she does not take it well and does not change her behavior. Talk is cheap - it is really easy to say that you want people to confront you differently, at a different time, in a different way, and that you will happily accept it then. But there are plenty of others who actually remember how those situations have gone down in the past and therefore don't accept that at face value.

Point 2:
I certainly wasn't aiming at gleeful...I was trying to give Number a way to judge the situation objectively. She brought up the idea that the whole problem was just a mismatch between her and my personalities, and I was trying to offer her concrete evidence that it was a bigger problem that that. Bigger both in the number of people being hurt and in the depth of the hurt they are feeling. I wasn't unaware that that could hurt feelings...but I was trying the tactic of communicating with Number in the way she communicates with others on the premise that maybe that is her preferred form, and that maybe that would allow her to hear my message. She has told us repeatedly that hurt feelings are sometimes the unavoidable result of her telling other posters painful truths that they don't want to hear.

[TravelingChris]

Good morning!   I have a lot to do today.

Church

Pay bills

Christmas cards

Make bed

Laundry

Make dinner 

[SKL]

10 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

By the way, I find being told I don't understand what someone is saying pretty triggering, when it's said in an accusing/hostile way (as opposed to "you don't understand, let me explain.") I always really WANT to understand what goes on in people's heads, and I usually do. I'm just sometimes unable to either do what people want from me or simply don't agree. 

If you aren't sure if I understand and if I'm getting carried away with my point of view, feel free to ask me to summarize what I think you mean. I think you'll find I probably do know what you're saying. 

In fact, I should probably summarize what people are saying more often. I really do know 99% of the time.

Hmmmm. Lots of food for thought here. 

You have told all of us that the problem is that we don't understand you.  Yet here you say it is offensive/triggering/untrue when others say you don't understand them.

I've been trying to give you a lot of benefit of the doubt, but seriously, you are insisting that you know 99% of what's in the minds of all the other forum members, just by reading their brief posts here?  I think you need to challenge your belief on that point.

As for why people don't confront you in the moment when you post something that rubs us the wrong way ... because (1) it's bad forum manners, (2) you don't respond productively to that, and (3) it's easier to just disengage, as we're all busy people.

Over time, I suggest you observe the way other posters make their points without (usually) getting into a tiff.  Instead of focusing solely on "what am I doing to annoy people," ask yourself "what are these other members doing right" and see if you can try that in your next post.  It won't fix everything overnight, but it will probably help you move in a positive direction here.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Anyone else go back and see if they ‘liked’ @wendyroo’s post?  Lol

The fact that I couldn’t remember if I did or not says a lot and I bet it is the same for others.  This is a long thread and I have mostly scanned …..

One time I got warning points from SWB and I was deeply embarrassed.  I felt like I was only defending myself against a poster who was very aggressive….but non the less I have come to see I was defending too strongly. 

This board has helped me so much over the years.  There are posters who have no idea how much they have helped me calm down and be more tolerant and tolerable. @Jean in Newcastletold me one time I did not need to keep replying to every post. Others too helped me see I was too much and too negative about certain topics and so I have examined my feelings and the way I express myself. Not saying that is true of @Not_a_Number but we all have ways we can improve. 
 

As far as back channels…..I don’t feel like  I am a part of that at all….I have a very few people I pm with…and the most back channeling is racking our brains trying to figure out who a ‘new’ poster is who is obviously not really new and obvious that a lot of the board knows who they really are.

People have been really really mean to me on here over the years. I have even been threatened with outing my IRL  identity….but guess what? I can’t even remember who they were!  Maybe I should have taken down names. 🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

That’s true in my case…you started a thread asking for PMs and I thought something was wrong and you never replied.

Obviously I wasn’t in on THAT back channel!

[pinball]

36 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Good morning!   I have a lot to do today.

Church

Pay bills

Christmas cards

Make bed

Laundry

Make dinner 

Wrong thread, LOL

or a real time “read the room” example

[pinball]

1 hour ago, NorthernBeth said:

I wanted to address this in general as I think this is a very unrealistic statement.   Most people can not just "decide" to be easygoing.   I have been working on that for the last 20 years myself and although I may be a lot more easygoing about things than I used to be, for someone who just met me, I guarantee their first impression of me is not how easygoing I am.  That is a very different thing from giving people the benefit of the doubt.  As far as "deciding" to feel emotions,  Not a Number is very clearly feeling emotions and sharing them is exactly what some people are objecting too.   As far as "deciding" to learn social skills,    everyone can learn social skills, sure.  But for some people that is easy, and innate and for others, it is a hard slogging process akin to climibing up a mountain.  And sadly sometimes half-way up the mountain you fall off and have to start again or you find you have climbed the wrong mountain or such.  I am thinking here of my own personal journey in "deciding to learn" social skills, which is so much harder for those of us who don't get it innately than I think people realize.   I think Not A Number made it pretty clear that she felt a forum had different social rules than  personal IRL conversation.  Others have made it clear that they don't view it that way.  Great, now she knows, and can do with that information what she wants. 

I also think one thing Not A Number has been trying to say is that addressing her directly at the time you object to a statement or behaviour is more helpful, rather than a bunch of people feeling upset, and resentful and doing nothing about it until a conversation like this happens.  Then suddenly people start messaginging one member and then "cheering" her on as she tackles Not A Number?    The tone of glee in the member's voice as she announces she is speaking for so many others seems pretty off-putting to me.   It is hard for me to imagine that anyone wrote that and was unaware it would be painful to hear.   In fact, I would imagine that is why it was said, entirely in order TO hurt Not A Number.  Which personally seems a lot more objectionable than someone hurting people accidentally because they are having trouble reading social cues.

You might be missing a back-back channel…one in which a group of people is taking up for/defending/protecting a particular poster they feel NaN did not treat well in a thread

[pinball]

9 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I liked this thread's title.  I thought that it was a nice question to ask and an interesting one that could be helpful and even illuminating  But it's been made all about Numbers by Numbers herself and I'm not so happy about that.  I agree with Wendy's posts, though I would not have been so direct but in all fairness, she was answering a question that was asked and I doubt would have hijacked the thread to interject this if she were not asked.  But I am allergic to drama (which is one reason why I did not mention the drama posts in my answer about the function of this forum for me) so I will be bowing out of this thread  The only reason I am posting this is because of the "I'm taking down names" tone of noting who liked Wendy's posts.   I do not like that way of interacting with people in a community, whether you agree with them or not. 

If you don’t like the way the thread evolved (devolved?) you’re free to start your own.

I think it’s fine that NaN’s thread serves NaN’s purposes and needs. Does every thread need to be helpful and illuminating to everyone?

there are some VERY PERSONAL THREADS on this board…that range from serious to mundane and people don’t call that out!

”hey! Your thread about carpeting your off shore lighthouse is all about YOU!”

Edited December 4, 2022 by pinball
You’re your yore

[Clemsondana]

I originally came to discuss homeschooling, and even though those parts of the board have many fewer posts I still enjoy learning when there's something on-topic for my older kids and helping when somebody asks about something that I know.  The same is true of Chat - we all run into issues, whether it's hard-to-fit jeans, weird medical problems, needing vacation advice, or navigating a family situation, and it's helpful to get the perspective of others.  Sometimes people solve a problem that I didn't know that I had.  🙂  

I'm even interested in some topics that show up in 'help me understand this' - style threads.  I don't mind offering my opinions on anything that I've actually given thought to (which is definitely not all topics!), but I usually avoid controversial ones because I really don't like arguing and have no interest in 'defending my opinion' as a pastime.  I'm incredibly live-and-let-live, so even when people are doing something completely inexplicable to me I assume that either they have different priorities or that their life experiences have shaped their understanding of how the world works to be very different from mine.  So, any thread of interest where I get the feeling that I can pop in, offer a 'from my perspective' or 'based on my experience' opinion, maybe explore a bit more in a pleasant back-and-forth or help with more information if requested, and then carry on with my life, checking back in to see if anybody else has posted their own interesting experiences if I have time...those I'll post on.  If I get the impression that I'm going to need to justify my answer with anything more than a casual statement, I'm out.  Wording matters, and I'll usually happily respond to the curious, but not the confrontational.  Life is too short to spend it arguing if one doesn't enjoy arguing!  

One bit of teaching advice that I got was that sometimes all you can do is plant the seed and hope that it sprouts eventually.  I sort of take a variation to that approach online - I offer what little bit of help or advice that I can, and if it's helpful then it will do it's thing, and if it's a bad fit, then people are welcome to ignore it.  I also know that, even within my own family, there are people who come at things from a perspective that I just can't understand.  I can know, but not truly 'get it', and I usually mentally file it as 'X has a hang-up about Y' and read any interaction through that filter, as much as I am able.  I'm fascinated by it, and by how it shapes different people's understanding of the world.  Some days I have the bandwidth to enjoy reading about or engaging with various people's perspectives, and sometimes I don't.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Clemsondana
Grammar matters!

[wendyroo]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

You might be missing a back-back channel…one in which a group of people is taking up for/defending/protecting a particular poster they feel NaN did not treat well in a thread

I want to be clear that in this thread I am not defending any particular poster. I have tried to do that through the years in specific threads when I thought Number was browbeating someone, but in this thread my comments were meant to be much more overarching and address her posting style in general and how it impacts others.

And I certainly am not part of any intricate, below ground back channels. I only have a few dozen PMs sent or received in the last decade, and a not insignificant portion of them are to or from Number.

But in the last day I have received quite a few simple messages of support and/or thanks. I don't find this unusual or underhanded. If we had been in an in-person book club, and I had spoken out publicly about how I felt Number's discussion style was hurting other members, I would not be surprised if others who agreed (especially those who had been hurt by Number in the past) found a private moment to thank me for taking that (social) risk. That is all that happened here.

[Pam in CT]

I started coming to WTM boards when my eldest was a precocious four year old fitting in wobbly in public school kindergarten. I'd picked up Susan's book; there were elements of the approach laid out that were HUGELY appealing to me (other parts, not so much) and I wanted to find out more.

Came in for the chronologically ordered, real-books-centered, developmentally appropriate approach to history and literature * ; stayed for the Great Conversation.

That child is now 28 and well able to manage her own learning.  There are a myriad ways in which these boards have helped me in the intervening 24 years.  Access to specific information in areas in which I have no expertise. Access to peeks into geographic places / cultures with which I have little or no contact. Exchange of ideas with people coming from worldviews with which I have little or no contact. Practice in adjusting the lens from zoom-on-self out to a wider scale. Practice distilling complex or nuanced perspectives into concise (still work in progress, LOL) written form. Practice exercising manners when irritated (ditto).  Being able to witness a handful of master-class role models in the above.

But the overall title of my WTM story is, these boards helped me grow up. 

 

Much of that growing up echoes what @Quill so aptly described as the Hermione Granger progression.  Part of it was a related, slow but inexorable realization that other people don't change their minds/perspectives/opinions any more often or easily than I change mine.  Not never-- definitely not never; I've evolved a LOT over the last decades, very often in response to information and perspectives and reading recommendations I first encountered here -- but that process has been incremental and deliberative and internal, not as a result of any #brilliant single argument on any single thread.

Relatedly..

16 hours ago, SKL said:

But most of us don't usually want this forum to be a series of slaps back and forth....

 

 

I've never literally used the "ignore" button in all my time here.  Because all posters -- myself included -- make dopey or poorly phrased or defensive posts on Monday and helpfully informative/ wise and insightful / funny ones on Wednesday.  And I've had the kind of life that has left me, for better and worse, with a pretty thick skin.

But there are whole categorical *types* of posts I glide on by with no more than an internal eyeroll:

• the one-liner snark / snipe-and-run;
• the wounded Drama Queen flounce; and
• the pit bull evangelist coming back repeatedly to say / expand / reiterate / "clarify" / insist on the same point well after the horse is already good and dead.

 

@Not_a_Number , I think @lewelma has made two very wise posts on this thread, the first observing about how you *personally* appear (from the outside, where we all sit) to process; and the second noting the different *value systems* around "getting-to-a-consensus-answer" versus "valuing the divergences and differences amongst the gray."

@lewelma  is among the posters on these boards whom I consider to be role models of wisdom and kindness. 

(And unlike you... and me... her posts are rare and succinct.  That is part of her influence.)

I would encourage you to take both those posts very seriously.

 

[Also @Melissa Louise  endorsement of therapy.

The first tried & true trite trope of therapy is that those of us who need it most are CERTAIN the problems all reside in other people.]

 

 

_____________

I have a (gifted, "spectrum-adjacent") son who processes very much as you appear to. From his POV, debating and counterpointing and jumping around to different vantages and driving the debate into widening examples / data / counterexamples and very-animated "engagement" is how he figures stuff out. 

From the POV of his friends and family, it is very often very exhausting. Even knowing that that is how he works out what he's working on, even knowing that the pit-bull interrogations, the "yabbut" rebuttals, his difficulty in not-interrupting others when he's passionate about something...

...even LOVING HIM DEEPLY: it's exhausting. For my own balance, I have to put limits on it.  First a code signal that we've established in advance:

Quote

To me, it appears that we are approaching the point of diminishing further returns.  Do YOU feel that this conversation is still productive?

In the moment, he is generally unable to "hear" this, even though we've discussed it out-of-the-moment and he has theoretically agreed to hear it.

So then my second boundary is

Quote

OK, I'll stay engaged for x more minutes or until you cut me off mid-sentence again.

Sometimes this jolts him enough to dial his confrontational style back enough that we can stay in.  Or, sometimes, not. 

In which case: I stop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(*   NOT MATH!!!!    lol even at the outset)

[Carol in Cal.]

To the OP:

I had pretty much decided that I was done with this thread, which has been interesting on a number of levels but IMO has run its course, but one thing has been nagging at me and I want to share it.

Most of us are or were homeschoolers.  Many if not all of us were, individually and as a group, condescended to by ‘educators’—ie by folks with jobs in education—teachers, education administrators, etc.—at various points in our homeschooling or homeschooling adjacent journeys.  They were the experts.  They knew best.  They knew the material.  They knew all about kids, who basically all needed their expertise.  They knew how to teach.  We were ‘just moms’.  We did not know anything.

Some of us suspected that that might actually be true, even though we had all gone to school ourselves and generally knew our own children better than anyone else possibly could.  Early homeschooling books pounded on these assumptions.  They talked about customization of teaching, about the coziness of setting a family-based schedule, and about learning in the ways that suit the child and family best, and about how we as moms were the very best equipped to do this.  We worked hard to do a great job of teaching our children in the ways that were best for them.  We united here around that commitment, and we helped each other to do so.

When you talk about math, and sometimes when you talk about other topics, you sound like those teachers, which raises our hackles for sure.  It is not surprising that that is particularly onerous to those here.  We are exactly the wrong audience to be treated that way.  

There are great ways to talk about teaching math and other topics that might be helpful to some of us and that would not make us bristle.  I’ll bet you could figure them out if you chose to do so.  If you do, I’ll bet you would be a great community member here.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Carol in Cal.

[Roadrunner]

I also came here when I started homeschooling inspired by WTM. I found a community here of highly experienced parents whose opinions I listened and whose curriculum reviews and educational guidance were very valuable. The board has changed a lot since, and sadly there are fewer education related discussions. I truly miss those. Yet there are still posters here whose kids grew up with mine, and I feel friendships with some posters on the board. I come here as a “hang out” place for social outlet. I come here often for commiseration as well as my college entrance thread shows. 
 

I don’t know how we all come across when we “speak” on this board, but I am sure most of us annoy others. I have also been told often that I am too much. Yet I still feel I found a group of people here I feel strong ties. So hugs to you since some of what I read seems like people are piling up to you. 

[Xahm]

I came to this forum when considering my then-toddlers' educational future. My husband had a terrible school experience while mine was decent, and we were determined to not fall into feeling trapped into one way if that way wasn't working. I had a lot of friends and family committed to homeschooling in ways that were commendable but that I would not share. To be honest, I was struggling to accept some of their reasons/methods for homeschooling and was pretty judgemental, though thankfully knew to keep those thoughts away from them. This board really has helped me think in terms of "there are many good ways to parent/educate/whatever and we can learn from others, even if we don't adopt their good way" instead of "there's a right way and we should all be figuring out what it is and then doing it "

NaN, I don't know if you are still following this, but you asked earlier about what has helped people be thicker skinned (or something. I'm not wading back through all that to find it ). For me, it has really helped to frame it in my mind as "Everyone has a reason for what they are thinking. Before I respond, let me think through and see if I can figure out why they are thinking as they do." I might need to ask some questions to figure that out. It turns out that the questions I ask when I'm trying to really understand them are much more helpful and respectful and less aggressive than what I say when I'm trying to show people they are wrong. When the conversation has that as it's base, I'm in a better position to address the actual rather than perceived differences and the other person feels more appreciated and so is better able to approach my ideas with an open mind. 

 

[Storygirl]

@Not_a_Number I don't know if you are still reading. But I wanted to say a couple of things, and it took me this long to get to the end of the thread. I appreciate that you are willing to be vulnerable by discussing this, and I also realize that it's hard to take advice and not have it feel hurtful.

I'm wondering if you ever reread threads that you have posted in, where someone has expressed impatience with you? I'm wondering whether you might see some patterns for yourself, if you objectively review the way that the conversations went.

I don't regularly engage with you on threads, because a lot of the time I remain a lurker, absorbing what others have to say without feeling a need to add my opinion in. But I did have a thread of my own recently, where I felt that you were trying to push me into reconsidering my views. I first posted a general statement to the thread, saying that I didn't want to engage with questions that tried to draw personal details out of me that I hadn't already shared or tried to get me to change my parenting perspectives. And you proceeded to ask me for details anyway and suggest that my parenting should change anyway (note that my youngest is 17). Finally, I said directly that your questions were not helpful to me, and you bowed out in a "I can see I'm not welcome any more" way.

It was frustrating to me. I wonder if you reread some of the threads that you've participated in that have turned that way -- pretend you are the other person, instead of yourself --- if you could understand better what might bother people sometimes.

[Storygirl]

I'm also wondering if you are kind of misunderstanding when people quote you and respond to it. It doesn't mean that you then have to respond back to them, because they quoted you. Sometimes people may be trying to get your attention to say that they don't want to keep talking about it. But maybe you think that since they quoted you, you are meant to keep responding.

In my thread, I was trying to kind of answer your questions in a way that would end the inquiries. But that seemed to encourage more questions from you instead.

Just something for you to consider.

In my case, it was not that I didn't want to think about what you were saying or engage with your ideas. It's that it was not what I needed at that time to help me with that problem. I think you sometimes think differently -- that you know something that the OP isn't grasping, and you want to get it across to them. But I was grasping what you were saying perfectly. It just wasn't helpful to me, and so I didn't want to continue with that line of questioning.

Sometimes I think you get caught up in a probing back and forth that you think is for the good of the other person, so you persist with it past when it is welcome.

I'm sharing these thoughts with you in good faith, hoping that they will help you, if you really want to consider different ways to interact that may go over better.