What purpose does this forum serve for you?

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I think another thing that's hard is that online interactions always lead to a TON of projection. Like, we're talking, but you don't see me. You can't gauge what my feelings about things are as opposed what I'm SAYING they are. 

I don't know if anyone else had this experience, but one sees this dating online: you project all these qualities onto someone, and then you meet in person and... well... they aren't who you thought they were, and it's not like they lied or you lied. It's just text isn't how our lizard brains are supposed to engage with other human beings. 

Yeah, that's why I said IRL is better! 

The projections get wild here on some topics, and bear little resemblance to reality at times. 

[Not_a_Number]

By the way, as a bit of advice for dealing with me or really any person you find frustrating or difficult... I'll probably listen more to you if you come from a perspective of trying to understand where I'm coming from. I might defensively block everything you say if you sound really critical. 

I understand that I haven't exactly lived like this myself, but I've found it makes a huge difference when I do. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Ausmumof3]

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, first of all, I do have skills other than math ability. 

And secondly, things that bother me aren't really disagreement as just lack of engagement. Disagreement doesn't bother me by itself. 

But I can see that deep engagement isn't something most people want on most topics. That's something specific to my own world view. 

I think the other thing is we’re all dealing with our stuff, time limits, cognitive overload, pandemic exhaustion. I’m no longer as interested in going in depth on studies as I was earlier in the pandemic, I have my handful of experts I trust in various areas. Or I might start but my actual people here need me, or work or etc etc. i think there’s a lot less full time homeschoolers now and a lot more of us working, homeschooling and feeling the time pinch.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

I think the other thing is we’re all dealing with our stuff, time limits, cognitive overload, pandemic exhaustion. I’m no longer as interested in going in depth on studies as I was earlier in the pandemic, I have my handful of experts I trust in various areas. Or I might start but my actual people here need me, or work or etc etc. i think there’s a lot less full time homeschoolers now and a lot more of us working, homeschooling and feeling the time pinch.

Definitely true for me, too. 

That's why I've stopped wanting to engage about the stats, to be honest. I have strong opinions about them and no one on here shares them and since people won't engage, we'll just be shouting at each other, and I don't want to do that. 

[fairfarmhand]

26 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Thank you. I really appreciate the balanced perspective. 

I'm a really intense person, for better and worse. So yes... that's seems correct. 

Back to the original question —

I came her for support when my oldest was 10 or 11 and things were hard. She’s just a hard kid and I found other people who had hard kids who were so freaking sympathetic. I had nobody irl who got it and when someone said “some kids are just hard and that’s not your fault” I fell in love with this group.

 

for @Not_a_Numbers more specific thoughts about her own relationship here on the board, I can see how sometimes the posting can be a bit frustrating to others. In particular when a poster is at a low spot sometimes they need a bit of gentleness when you are in problem solving mode and that can’t always be easy to take.

op, I’ve never had much trouble with your posts personally because I live with people who are similar to you in your approach to life and I also live with family members who are similar to your own family members so I get it. 
 

As far as the question of humility and over confidence, so much of life I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older is that I know so little. Especially about other peoples lives. My own life looks on the outside in one particular way but if you dig deeper, it’s much different. And it was hard to take when well meaning people had suggestions and ideas that just were impractical and Were so sure they would work for my life. 
 

a small example was when we were discussing food shortages and shipping issues and grocery store shelves being empty. One poster commented about it being so easy to grow fruits. And in my area, that’s Not a reality, and I know this despite being a farmer and a gardener. So that poster said with confidence, this is easy why doesn’t everyone do it? And I was like, hey it’s not that simple for everyone in all areas. So her truth and her confidence was right and my truth was right also. 

i like this forum and I like you @Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

All right, all. I was supposed to be working today 😂. That didn't really happen.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and suggestions and will ponder them. But I'm off. 

If you would like me to DO something different (as opposed to think differently, which I really can't promise), please do PM me and tell me. You can also feel free to PM me and tell me you find me to be impossibly frustrating and that you're angry at me 😂. I can tell some people are angry at me, and really I think that kind of thing is better in the open. 

You can't get me to change my mind, probably, at least not right away. But I'm interested in people's needs and feelings. 

[lewelma]

35 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I think it’s possible for posters to have respect for your expertise but still not ultimately agree with your conclusion. 

Oh Not_a_Number and I have had some wonderful rip-roaring disagreements about how to teach math. lol. 

[Katy]

I came here because my only exposure to homeschooling that wasn’t for the purposes of sheltering kids from sex ed was the Robinson Curriculum. I could see initially that it would have worked really well for a kid like me, and while I value older books despite changing social mores, that particular curriculum had a creepy & reactionary undertone to it that became obvious when looking into high school book recommendations. So I started searching. 

Every time I googled anything to do with homeschooling I found this forum. And when I realized I could provide my kids with a classical curriculum at home, with logic and latin and a math choice that was neither overtly Christian or as boring as Saxon? I became a regular. 

This forum filled a lot of social needs for me when we were isolating during the pandemic. And I really value the way so many intelligent, logical women’s group think can regularly be more intelligent than anyone as an individual. Especially with the pandemic. 

I think I became thicker skinned because I decided to. We moved several times when I was a kid and I would go from being popular at one school to starting over at the next. What made you popular at one school was always different than the previous, but one thing remained the same: the popular crowd always had little digging jokes aimed at everyone hanging around them, mostly as a social test for confidence. If you could laugh it off and say something funnier in response, you were in. If you took it personally and sulked, no one liked you. In one way it sucked because the popular kids never had much loyalty or true support, but being thick-skinned was always the social proof you needed to fit in.

The irony is that in most social situations with adults, the same rules apply. You need to throw in slightly better manners and the type of clothing & fashion choices that make you fit in, but it’s otherwise the same. This is really obvious when watching politicians. As a result I typically need to know I respect someone to care that much about their opinions. That said, I have an ignore list too. I ignore trolls and people who seem particularly triggered by me. I usually ignore their posts, but I know if I decide to read them that it will be something I probably dislike. That way I’m either pleasantly surprised OR I roll my eyes and don’t take it personally because I knew it was something a troll would say. 
 

I like you @Not_a_Number. The only thing I have noticed that I thought you might want to re-evaluate is that sometimes when someone is asking for personal advice and the group consensus is that you’re judging too harshly because the situation is more nuanced than you know, take it for granted that we’re right that the person needs more grace than you’re inclined to give them. And start a spin off thread about the theoretical situation you’re curious about rather than arguing about the OP’s real life. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

And spinning off from here, I tend to have this feeling that it ought to be possible to actually engage with someone about something they don't want to hear. And that's not generally my experience -- people will not engage well with you if you're saying something unwelcome. 

So maybe the right thing is to only engage when you're being friendly and to say your piece if you know it won't be received well . . . 

It is called reading the room dear. It is possible to do that even virtually. 

[Scarlett]

57 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Thank you. I really appreciate the balanced perspective. 

I'm a really intense person, for better and worse. So yes... that's seems correct. 

Yes you are intense.  And that is ok.  You remind me of myself…..  I am 57 now and I have reigned that part of myself in quite a bit. Especially on line.  

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Yes you are intense.  And that is ok.  You remind me of myself…..  I am 57 now and I have reigned that part of myself in quite a bit. Especially on line.  

I didn’t want to say it but I definitely think age can be a factor in gentleness. (Although some of us maybe go the other way and get more direct!)

[SKL]

31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think another thing that's hard is that online interactions always lead to a TON of projection. Like, we're talking, but you don't see me. You can't gauge what my feelings about things are as opposed what I'm SAYING they are. 

I don't know if anyone else had this experience, but one sees this dating online: you project all these qualities onto someone, and then you meet in person and... well... they aren't who you thought they were, and it's not like they lied or you lied. It's just text isn't how our lizard brains are supposed to engage with other human beings. 

I frequently tell myself that the person I'm fussing with online is probably a perfectly delightful person IRL.  That we would probably be great IRL friends and neither of us would guess who our online persona was.  And not because either of us was trying to be fake.

Actually, not on WTM but in another online community, I had reason to hang out with a person I'd strongly disagreed with online.  I had some assumptions about him and wasn't so sure how it would go.  But we're now friends.  3D people are just a lot easier to understand and like than online personas.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

It is called reading the room dear. It is possible to do that even virtually. 

I know this is meant to be a joke, but 'reading the room' isn't something that is always easy.

I don't like that saying, and that comes from seeing how harmful the assumption is to some of my neurodiverse students.

It is better, imo, to be upfront about the social rules you are expecting people to know, rather than assume everyone has equal access to this magical 'reading of the room'.

 

 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I know this is meant to be a joke, but 'reading the room' isn't something that is always easy.

I don't like that saying, and that comes from seeing how harmful the assumption is to some of my neurodiverse students.

It is better, imo, to be upfront about the social rules you are expecting people to know, rather than assume everyone has equal access to this magical 'reading of the room'.

 

 

It wasn’t a joke.  🤷🏻‍♀️ We need to learn how to read social cues.  I realize it might be difficult for some but then again not everyone is a math genius. Life is not fair.  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Scarlett said:

It wasn’t a joke.  🤷🏻‍♀️ We need to learn how to read social cues.  I realize it might be difficult for some but then again not everyone is a math genius. Life is not fair.  

No. You don't locate the dysfunction solely in the individual.

You locate it in the interaction between the environment and the individual.

'Reading the room' needs to be made explicit in order for spaces to be inclusive.

 

 

 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

No. You don't locate the dysfunction solely in the individual.

You locate it in the interaction between the environment and the individual.

'Reading the room' needs to be made explicit in order for spaces to be inclusive.

 

 

 

And how do you propose that is done in this large of a community? Personally it has taken me 20 years here to feel like I read things correctly most of the time. 
Heck I am still confused about some of your strongly held opinions. 
 

[wendyroo]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I know this is meant to be a joke, but 'reading the room' isn't something that is always easy.

I don't like that saying, and that comes from seeing how harmful the assumption is to some of my neurodiverse students.

It is better, imo, to be upfront about the social rules you are expecting people to know, rather than assume everyone has equal access to this magical 'reading of the room'.

I feel people have been upfront with Not_a_Number for a long time about how her posts come across negatively in this environment. And I feel that she has frequently written it off as her just fundamentally being "mouthy" or "pushy" or just plain right to the point she had no choice but to (appear) to look down on others.

[Melissa Louise]

'

Just now, Scarlett said:

And how do you propose that is done in this large of a community? Personally it has taken me 20 years here to feel like I read things correctly most of the time. 
Heck I am still confused about some of your strongly held opinions. 
 

Things like JAWM help.

People could make it clear the type of interaction they are seeking.

'light-hearted/X people only please/no debate'.

That's one way I can think of.

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

'

Things like JAWM help.

People could make it clear the type of interaction they are seeking.

'light-hearted/X people only please/no debate'.

That's one way I can think of.

Fair enough.  
 

This forum is like a big family and over time we learn a lot about each other…..kind of like a big family reunion everyone knows not to ask aunt Mary about her son who is in prison for robbing a bank.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Scarlett

[lewelma]

I also think some people believe in consensus building as a good goal. It is based on a fundamental belief that there is a 'best' answer that we can all as a community strive to find. Others believe that consensus silences diverse opinions, and should be avoided. This is based in ontological and epistemological beliefs of the individual. 

For example, my older boy seeks consensus while my younger boy embraces diverse opinions. Both are sincere in their goals, however it leads to difficult discussions caused by these different goals. The older boy who seek consensus struggles to stop the discussion because he feels that consensus is an admirable aim and leads to positive interactions. This drives my younger boy nuts.  

My older boy is in mathematics and physics, which matches a desire to find this ultimate 'best' answer.

My younger boy is in environmental management, where various perspectives on land use (indigenous, environmentalist, farmers, etc) need to be respected and catered for.

My interactions with Not_a_Number are similar to my interactions with my older boy -- very sincere but very driven to find agreement or consensus. Like my older boy I find that Not_a_Number likes to discuss topics until everyone can see things in the same light. This is a positive goal, just not one that everyone shares.  If consensus has not been found, my older boy takes this as an indication that he has not made his point well, or others haven't made their point well, so more discussion and explanation is required. He believes that if everyone has all knowledge, then consensus can be found because ontologically there is one 'best ' answer for any given situation.

I'm not sure that Not_a_Number would agree with any of this, but the differing goals of consensus seeking vs embracing diversity is an interesting way to understand why certain threads become intractable. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by lewelma

[KSera]

 

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

There's been quite a lot of commentary on the fact that I'm off-puttingly confident and overgeneralize. And yeah, I know, but that's actually how I think. 

I don’t actually read this thread as people saying your confidence is what is off-putting for them.  You have made much in this thread about the issue being that you’re just too confident for everyone, but there are a whole lot of smart, confident women engaging on this forum.  I don’t think the issue is one of people wanting you not to be confident.

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

I feel sometimes like you make other people's threads about yourself.  It's not just a matter of being overconfident.  And when people try to call you out on it in a given thread or talk to you about it, you don't take it well.  You double down and call us mean or wrong and you never stop to consider the possibility that you might not know what's going on in other people's lives better than they do.  

This is a good explanation of what I have seen as a common pattern as well and is a lot more problematic to me than disagreeing with an opinion about something.

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Most people who are piling on are telling me how to think/feel, and I've somehow really gotten it down in the last year that no one has the right to do that. No one's needs extend to my brain. Only to my actions. 

Perhaps I missed a post or two in this thread, but I’m not seeing this thread as anyone telling you how to think or feel. For the posts that were giving suggestions it seemed to me they were suggestions of things you could alter about your posting style if you wanted more people to engage.

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And sometimes things I think are helpful are actually also things people don't want to hear. 

Sometimes that will be the case. Other times, things you think are helpful actually aren’t things that are helpful.  Just because you think they are helpful and someone else doesn’t doesn’t mean you are right and they just don’t want to hear it.

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

But I can see that deep engagement isn't something most people want on most topics. 

While this is certainly true on many fluffy topics, I certainly feel there have been a lot of threads over the years here that I feel people have deeply engaged with. I know that I’m not alone in having had my views shifted  in some profound ways based on deep conversations here.

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have strong opinions about them and no one on here shares them and since people won't engage, we'll just be shouting at each other, and I don't want to do that. 

This is an interesting statement that I’m trying to parse. It sounds like you’re saying that if people don’t share your opinion that it means they’re not engaging with you. I don’t think that’s what you mean, but I’m not sure what it is you did mean to say here.

I’ll say here that there are some things about you that remind me of me. In the past, I often felt very frustrated that I had a certain idea that I felt like people would understand if I could just say it right. As I’ve gotten older though, I feel less like that. Sometimes (often), people just aren’t going to see things the same way I do. That’s okay. I still find it less okay and harder to take when it’s something that really matters on a wider scale and/or affects me or my family personally. Covid stuff is a good example. In fact, I pretty much only posted on education areas here until Covid hit. I became a very active poster at that point. 
 

Edited December 4, 2022 by KSera

[Brittany1116]

45 minutes ago, SKL said:

I frequently tell myself that the person I'm fussing with online is probably a perfectly delightful person IRL.  That we would probably be great IRL friends and neither of us would guess who our online persona was.  And not because either of us was trying to be fake.

Actually, not on WTM but in another online community, I had reason to hang out with a person I'd strongly disagreed with online.  I had some assumptions about him and wasn't so sure how it would go.  But we're now friends.  3D people are just a lot easier to understand and like than online personas.

This is something I still have to tell myself after a lifetime of growing up with the internet. Don't assign or assume bad motives, even if you are in disagreement. I recently found myself in a pile-on because of a comment I made, and some of the replies seemed to assume I meant many things I did not. They didn't understand or like one part of something I said, so I was an enemy. I figure if we were sitting in a room having the same discussion, the dynamics would be very different. 

[KungFuPanda]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I don't think they are saying your confidence is off-putting.  I think they are saying it's off-putting when your responses to their well-meant suggestions imply "you should shut up since you know nothing about this / about me."  Can you see the difference?

Nobody here is stupid.  But even if we all were, ... would it be that hard to say to yourself, "sigh, they don't get it" and refrain from typing?

Which brings up another point.  There is no requirement that you respond in writing to everything, whether you agree or disagree.  It's OK to just let someone's comment stand.

Think about some of the most respected people here.  Don't you think they come across as confident?  Do they get attacked for that?

I knew there was some sort of pyramid here!!! I’m at the bottom with Nia and Page, aren’t I?!?!?

[fraidycat]

I love to engage in deep, thoughtful discussions on here...

a) when the subject is interesting to me, and

b) when I have the time, and

c) when I have the energy to attempt to express myself well, and

d) when I'm not being interrupted by real life.

When the stars align on all four of those things, I enjoy a deep dive. That very rarely happens though, and most often I find myself reading long after a conversation has ended or moved in a different direction, even if I did start out reading and thinking I'd have something to add or wanted to engage with. At that point, I like a few posts and move on to reading a different conversation or get on doing life things.

[wendyroo]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

My opinions are, for better or worse, really important to me. 

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think telling me to not be confident in my generalizations is going to work out for me. The things I'm confident about aren't always just about me. I don't think I'd be able to act that way. 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've told people when their posts bothered me, but that's not asking for understanding. It's just a true statement of how they made me feel. I can't help that. 

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't post with the goal of offending people or not. I post an an attempt to communicate something that I think might help the person. And sometimes things I think are helpful are actually also things people don't want to hear. 

Can you not see the double standard that you are setting up here?

It sounds a lot like you are saying that your opinions are so important to you that you can't help being pushy about them. That as long as you are making true statements about how something made you feel that you can't help if it bothers others. That if you think something will help someone else then it doesn't matter if your posts offend others just because they "don't want to hear".

You told us repeatedly in your post about your birthday gift that you could not just thank the giver for thinking of you because it wouldn't be authentic, and you felt very strongly that you had the right to express your authentic feelings.

And yet you extend none of that leeway to me. My posts did not have the goal of offending, and were attempting to communicate something that I thought would be of help. They were full of true statements about how something made me feel. They were my opinions which are very important to me and very authentic.

Why should I censor my opinions to save your feelings about something that effects our whole community when you have set the standard that getting people to share your opinion is a hill to die on and worth hurt feelings?

[Mom_to3]

Back to the original question:

I read on here (education/homeschooling forums) for a very long time before joining and getting engaged. I have found very helpful information, including courses for my kids, on this forum (I have also enjoyed and learned from the conversation on math education, and do wish those parts of the forum were more active these days - though my eldest is reaching an age where I have to be more concerned about privacy). When I want to know something about homeschooling, I still search those forums first.

I stayed for the very diverse and smart (often brilliant) conversation. Some of it is very deep, some heart-breaking, some superficial, some entertaining. I particularly enjoy "speaking" to and especially "hearing" from people who come from so many different backgrounds - some like my own, some so different that I would likely never have gotten to know them IRL. Sometimes I just want to read for a few minute because I need a break, often I stay longer than I intended to.  Overall, I have learned so much on here from the community and I am very grateful. So thank you to all of you!

 

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

29 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

And yet you extend none of that leeway to me. My posts did not have the goal of offending, and were attempting to communicate something that I thought would be of help. They were full of true statements about how something made me feel. They were my opinions which are very important to me and very authentic.

Why should I censor my opinions to save your feelings about something that effects our whole community when you have set the standard that getting people to share your opinion is a hill to die on and worth hurt feelings?

Did I actually ask you to censor yourself at any point? I said that it was unpleasant to hear and felt hostile. You can do as you like with that.

As I said, I don't generally post to offend or not offend but to communicate. If you feel like you've communicated what you've wanted, I can't imagine what else you could want from me. 

[Robin M]

29 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Can you not see the double standard that you are setting up here?

It sounds a lot like you are saying that your opinions are so important to you that you can't help being pushy about them. That as long as you are making true statements about how something made you feel that you can't help if it bothers others. That if you think something will help someone else then it doesn't matter if your posts offend others just because they "don't want to hear".

You told us repeatedly in your post about your birthday gift that you could not just thank the giver for thinking of you because it wouldn't be authentic, and you felt very strongly that you had the right to express your authentic feelings.

And yet you extend none of that leeway to me. My posts did not have the goal of offending, and were attempting to communicate something that I thought would be of help. They were full of true statements about how something made me feel. They were my opinions which are very important to me and very authentic.

Why should I censor my opinions to save your feelings about something that effects our whole community when you have set the standard that getting people to share your opinion is a hill to die on and worth hurt feelings?

You know what this sounds like to me.  That you are talking about someone who is on the autism spectrum who takes everything literally.  I’m not saying she is, but that’s the impression since I have an kiddo on the spectrum who does take things literally. 

[Robin M]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Did I actually ask you to censor yourself at any point? I said that it was unpleasant to hear and felt hostile. You can do as you like with that.

As I said, I don't generally post to offend or not offend but to communicate. If you feel like you've communicated what you've wanted, I can't imagine what else you could want from me. 

Remember that last word thing.  😉

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Robin M said:

Remember that last word thing.  😉

Last word or no last word, I don't appreciate the armchair diagnosis in the least. 

I think I've been pretty open with people about the fact that I'm spectrum-adjacent, although not on the spectrum per se. 

[Robin M]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Last word or no last word, I don't appreciate the armchair diagnosis in the least. 

I think I've been pretty open with people about the fact that I'm spectrum-adjacent, although not on the spectrum per se. 

I was not aware that you are spectrum adjacent, so a little grace and I apologize. Off to watch a movie.  Good night!

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Last word or no last word, I don't appreciate the armchair diagnosis in the least. 

Just as an aside, it’s not an insult if someone suggests someone might be on the spectrum. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Just as an aside, it’s not an insult if someone suggests someone might be on the spectrum. 

I have a weird relationship with it. Lots of odd feelings carried over from when I was in college and first figured that out about myself. But you're right, it isn't. 

I don't, however, take statements overly literally. And in this case, stating that I was doing so felt dismissive. 

[Not_a_Number]

40 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

They were full of true statements about how something made me feel. They were my opinions which are very important to me and very authentic.

I'll take you at your word, then. I hear that you don't enjoy engaging with me about pedagogy or other things. I'm sorry about that. 

As you can see, I'm already thinking about how to interact on this forum in a way that would work better for people. But the things you say make it seem like we just aren't compatible, because I'll generalize to a situation I don't know intimately and that'll offend you. If you'd like me not to post on your threads, you can certainly tell me so, and I'll avoid them in the future. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

This is an interesting statement that I’m trying to parse. It sounds like you’re saying that if people don’t share your opinion that it means they’re not engaging with you. I don’t think that’s what you mean, but I’m not sure what it is you did mean to say here.

No, it just genuinely doesn't feel like people are engaging with the nuts and bolts of what I'm saying, and since I can't explain it without the nuts and bolts, it doesn't seem fruitful to discuss. 

[Not_a_Number]

At the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that some people don't like my unfiltered opinions much. And I don't know why I was expecting otherwise, because it's true in real life. I filter myself heavily in real life. 

I suppose some really naive part of me was hoping that people would like the unfiltered version by text. I don't know why. I think just wishful thinking, because some part of me wants my authentic self to be more likable. 

I'll assume that everyone who said I was being insufficiently humble or that otherwise said they have trouble engaging with me doesn't want my input and will adjust accordingly. (I don't think I'm able to moderate my tone or message sufficiently for people to be happy with me.) Perhaps I should I have done so already, but as it happens, I haven't. But I will, moving forward. Not everyone wants my input and that's totally fine. 

I'm glad some of you enjoy talking to me :-). Feel free to tell me when you want me to knock it off if that's relevant in a thread. I find that easier than the general statements, which feel hostile and hard to apply. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I also think some people believe in consensus building as a good goal. It is based on a fundamental belief that there is a 'best' answer that we can all as a community strive to find. Others believe that consensus silences diverse opinions, and should be avoided. This is based in ontological and epistemological beliefs of the individual. 

For example, my older boy seeks consensus while my younger boy embraces diverse opinions. Both are sincere in their goals, however it leads to difficult discussions caused by these different goals. The older boy who seek consensus struggles to stop the discussion because he feels that consensus is an admirable aim and leads to positive interactions. This drives my younger boy nuts.  

My older boy is in mathematics and physics, which matches a desire to find this ultimate 'best' answer.

My younger boy is in environmental management, where various perspectives on land use (indigenous, environmentalist, farmers, etc) need to be respected and catered for.

My interactions with Not_a_Number are similar to my interactions with my older boy -- very sincere but very driven to find agreement or consensus. Like my older boy I find that Not_a_Number likes to discuss topics until everyone can see things in the same light. This is a positive goal, just not one that everyone shares.  If consensus has not been found, my older boy takes this as an indication that he has not made his point well, or others haven't made their point well, so more discussion and explanation is required. He believes that if everyone has all knowledge, then consensus can be found because ontologically there is one 'best ' answer for any given situation.

I'm not sure that Not_a_Number would agree with any of this, but the differing goals of consensus seeking vs embracing diversity is an interesting way to understand why certain threads become intractable. 

That's a really interesting perspective and one I will chew on. Thank you.

My gut feeling is that it's both wrong and right. Some part of me really wants there to be correct answers for everything. And some part of me loves being in an organizing role and figuring out how to balance things to make everyone happy. 

But it's perhaps true that this latter half is completely missing on the forums, despite being VERY present in real life. 

I think something about being in charge brings that aspect of me out. 

[Clarita]

I come here because it often gives me other perspectives. I really like listening to opinions other than my own. I actually kind of enjoy the disagreements that happen here, because I like to see passionate other sides. Also I like it in writing so I can re-read the discussion, sometimes I gain more insights from that.

I do have homeschooling friends/acquaintances in real life but often those end up having similar philosophies to mine. Partially because few people want to spend an afternoon or an hour with someone they don't agree with in principle, even I have a hard time spending tons of one-on-one time with someone I disagree heavily with. Here is where I get to learn about philosophies different to mine in homeschooling and otherwise, and seeing where they come from.

Plus, it doesn't hurt me too much if any one of you decide to "block" me or not listen or ever engage with me. In real life I'm a bit more careful about stepping on toes because it might mean I lose a part of my support network. 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

By the way, I find being told I don't understand what someone is saying pretty triggering, when it's said in an accusing/hostile way (as opposed to "you don't understand, let me explain.") I always really WANT to understand what goes on in people's heads, and I usually do. I'm just sometimes unable to either do what people want from me or simply don't agree. 

If you aren't sure if I understand and if I'm getting carried away with my point of view, feel free to ask me to summarize what I think you mean. I think you'll find I probably do know what you're saying. 

In fact, I should probably summarize what people are saying more often. I really do know 99% of the time.

Hmmmm. Lots of food for thought here. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Melissa Louise]

I've been thinking more about 'reading the room' and one thing I find confusing is that the rules don't seem consistent.

So, very blunt, I'm right behaviours, yes, I can see why that needs to be moderated in the interests of group harmony.

But then some people seem to get approval for being blunt and forceful in their opinions. 

In the same way there can be a buck up buttercup tone sometimes, but then a so brave tone other times. 

So is there another rule under the rule? Rooms within rooms? It's confusing. 

Lol, I don't understand how social groups work, clearly. 

[wendyroo]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'll take you at your word, then. I hear that you don't enjoy engaging with me about pedagogy or other things. I'm sorry about that. 

As you can see, I'm already thinking about how to interact on this forum in a way that would work better for people. But the things you say make it seem like we just aren't compatible, because I'll generalize to a situation I don't know intimately and that'll offend you. If you'd like me not to post on your threads, you can certainly tell me so, and I'll avoid them in the future. 

So after reading this whole thread, are you coming away with the impression that I’m the only one who has any issue with your posting style, and therefore it is probably just a compatibility issue?

I’ve had you on ignore for 6 months. I’ve long since given up trying to engage with you about things of interest. 

But just because you are on ignore does not mean I don’t see the ramifications of your posts. I see the posters torn down by your replies on their threads. I see conversations derailed by your badgering. I see confidence shattered because you imply that you know exactly the right answer for someone living in an unendurable situation that has no right answers. 

Obviously you can think whatever you want…and history suggests that you definitely will despite any offering an alternate viewpoint. But I think I am speaking for a silent majority. People are liking my comments. People are reaching out to me in PMs to thank me for standing up against your bullying. 

There are a lot of people feeling hurt, shut down, steamrolled, unheard and offended by your posts. And that is absolutely fine; you’re right that you are perfectly within your rights to say what you want. I just thought it might help you in your quest to interact more positively on the forum if someone spoke up plainly about how your posts make some people feel.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

So after reading this whole thread, are you coming away with the impression that I’m the only one who has any issue with your posting style, and therefore it is probably just a compatibility issue?

No, certainly not. I'm happy to avoid the lot of you. 

ETA: I mean, everyone who finds me frustrating. Seriously, just PM me/message on here and tell me you don't want my input, and I won't answer you again or will put you on ignore 😂. 

I'm editing out the last bit since it got pretty seriously misconstrued. Anyway, let's just say I heard people who said they didn't want to deal with me. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

But then some people seem to get approval for being blunt and forceful in their opinions. 

I think it's partially a power dynamics thing. If you're going to be forceful, you can't be badgering or needy. I've done both, and that's not a good way to be. 

[Melissa Louise]

Woah,this is why I go back to the whole please use the ignore button. A lot of interpersonal issues can be dealt with that way. 

I don't understand any of this. It's sad. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it's partially a power dynamics thing. If you're going to be forceful, you can't be badgering or needy. I've done both, and that's not a good way to be. 

Oh. 

Oh! 

This is new to me. 

So, be needy but not forceful. Or be forceful but not needy. Stick to one lane of the persona? 

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I like you @Not_a_Number. The only thing I have noticed that I thought you might want to re-evaluate is that sometimes when someone is asking for personal advice and the group consensus is that you’re judging too harshly because the situation is more nuanced than you know, take it for granted that we’re right that the person needs more grace than you’re inclined to give them. And start a spin off thread about the theoretical situation you’re curious about rather than arguing about the OP’s real life. 

Well, thank you 🙂 . Same to you. 

I don't know that I am always going to go with group consensus, for better or worse, but I should certainly give more grace and listen better. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Oh. 

Oh! 

This is new to me. 

So, be needy but not forceful. Or be forceful but not needy. Stick to one lane of the persona? 

Exactly. 

It's actually really fascinating. I'm naturally a forceful person. (I'm very curious if anyone's going to tear me apart for saying this, lol.) And actually, I find that my life has been going better without also being needy. 

For me, owning my actual personality in the last year has gone MUCH better than trying to be a wolf in sheep's clothing 😉 . 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Exactly. 

It's actually really fascinating. I'm naturally a forceful person. (I'm very curious if anyone's going to tear me apart for saying this, lol.) And actually, I find that my life has been going better without also being needy. 

For me, owning my actual personality in the last year has gone MUCH better than trying to be a wolf in sheep's clothing 😉 . 

Too bad if you are needy AND forceful, lol 

This is really eye opening for me. 

 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

@BandH -- just for the record, I've offered to stay off your threads and meant it. 

I didn't feel right doing it, because I'm afraid for you, and I thought I had things to say that might help. But I don't want to offer help that only upsets you, and if you aren't interested, you aren't interested. So say the word, and I won't try again. 

What I really want to know, though, is why people are obviously talking ABOUT me but not to me. Anyone at all could have asked me to stay off those threads if it was important to them. You have widely misconstrued my character if you think I don't care about that kind of input. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Too bad if you are needy AND forceful, lol 

This is really eye opening for me. 

People are pretty primitive animals in some ways. 

I see this stuff all over my family, honestly. My mom has these issues too: she's sensitive and forceful but afraid to say what she needs. So she just stews and it just splashes out as unpleasant resentment and total inability to listen. 

I think it often comes from having parents who just weren't interested in one's perspective. So you bury your needs, but for some people, that just means the bad feelings get buried deep. Some people aren't meant to be easygoing :-/ .