Elderly parents don't see need/want to pay for assistance, sibling differences, WWYD?

[Acadie]

Thank you to all who offered feedback and shared your own experiences. It has really helped me clarify first of all what's happening in my family dynamic, and what boundaries and priorities I want to bring to our conversations and next steps.

The generosity of the Hive in sharing such a wealth of insight and experience has helped me and my family so much over the years, from our early homeschooling days to elder care now. I honestly don't know what I would do without the Hive!

So much gratitude 🙏🙏 🙏

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Acadie

[prairiewindmomma]

Legal incompetency is a high bar, but if he can meet it, he should be declared incompetent because it is such a high bar.

Having him declared legally incompetent would solve the legal management issues, but it will do nothing to smooth over the living situation.

Frankly, I’d be having it out with uninvolved sibling. I would .02 they are in denial, more because that is easier for them psychologically but also because they aren’t involved in the daily management. It sounds like you and local sister are. 
 

ETA: I would be promoting local sister’s happiness. Your parents are likely to be gone in the next ten years. She has more life ahead of her. She shouldn’t be trapped. If it doesn’t work for her, it doesn’t. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[Arcadia]

The uninvolved sibling that is poking fire sounds like my petty cousins who behave like dog in the manger. My cousins were also aggressively after their inheritance so would be happy for their parents to spend as little as possible. So if that sibling is only in denial, that’s not as horrid as if there is ulterior motive to poke fire.

[wintermom]

I would recommend that the involved sibling take a break/vacation and the uninvolved sibling step in and take over all the duties. The uninvolved sibling seems to need a reality check, as for whatever reason, they don't understand. Care-giving older parents is completely exhausting, physically and mentally. You need to be in the thick of it to fully appreciate this, and observing from a distance is clearly interferring with the uninvolved sibling's knowledge of what your sister is actually dealing with.

[Acadie]

59 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

ETA: I would be promoting local sister’s happiness. Your parents are likely to be gone in the next ten years. She has more life ahead of her. She shouldn’t be trapped. If it doesn’t work for her, it doesn’t. 

Thank you, it's true that my sister's happiness is of utmost importance. 

[Acadie]

58 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

The uninvolved sibling that is poking fire sounds like my petty cousins who behave like dog in the manger. My cousins were also aggressively after their inheritance so would be happy for their parents to spend as little as possible. So if that sibling is only in denial, that’s not as horrid as if there is ulterior motive to poke fire.

My sense is that denial and ulterior motives both could be playing a role ☹️

[Acadie]

39 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I would recommend that the involved sibling take a break/vacation and the uninvolved sibling step in and take over all the duties. The uninvolved sibling seems to need a reality check, as for whatever reason, they don't understand. Care-giving older parents is completely exhausting, physically and mentally. You need to be in the thick of it to fully appreciate this, and observing from a distance is clearly interferring with the uninvolved sibling's knowledge of what your sister is actually dealing with.

I really love the idea of breaks/vacation for involved sib. 

Uninvolved sib has more going on than needing a reality check. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I’ve seen this kind of thing play out before, sometimes really well but sometimes very ugly.

This one sounds like it’s getting ugly.  I think that it would be a good idea to advocate for your sister by assessing the financial value of her unpaid assistance, offsetting the room and board value, to get your other sibling onto your and her side in how to care for your parents.  Having said that, is she going to inherit a life interest in the family home?  If not, where will she live after your parents pass away?  That’s when things can get REALLY ugly.

[bolt.]

I think I might privately reply to the uninvolved sibling's "calculations" with the going rate for live-in 24h eldercare professionals. (Or maybe not live-in 24h if they don't yet need that -- but something reasonable like daily homecare visits, housecleaning, grocery delivery, professional driving for appointments, etc. Whatever is reasonable.) And the rate for legal professionals to help mind the legal business. Then "offer" to consider the route of securing professional-care instead of family-care if paying one-third(?) of that monthly bill seems attainable to them. Or you could offer to consider 'charging' your sister rent, and 'paying' her for her skills -- but you think your sister would come out ahead. To you, your sister volunteering her very valuable time and years off of her life: living somewhere she doesn't choose, prioritizing the needs of other people, etc... is worth it's weight in gold.

But, really this may be a little bit "about you" -- *you* really like that your sister is there, minding the fort and taking everything off your mind and off your plate. But if your sister doesn't like it, and your dad doesn't like it, and your under-involved sibling doesn't like it... maybe it's not actually the best solution, regardless of how practical it seems? Many families resist professional care solutions well beyond the point where they would truly be a relief for everyone. If that's what a good portion of people in the situation would maybe prefer... it's worth putting it on the table and looking it in the eye.

Or maybe just the legal stuff? Are there no paralegal services or something who could be trusted with your family affairs? It would cost, but at least it would be done, and it wouldn't be any of the siblings job to get it done.

[pitterpatter]

Honestly, if you love your local sibling at all, I would help find a way to get her out of that situation. As someone who has pretty much lost her entire life as a result of being the familial elder care sacrifice, no amount of money is worth it. (I've been paid nothing. And, I've tried to "preserve assets" for my sister. 🙄) I tried to be altruistic, but I selfishly robbed my daughter and husband of their lives in the process. (Honestly, I was given no choice. No one would help me. And, to this day, short of packing up, turning my back, and moving away, I can't figure out how I would have changed it.) There have been zero positives in the experience. I was used and cajoled into an identity that I never wanted. All other family got to keep their lives. Good for them. They did what they had to do to keep their lives in tact, I suppose. I knew the ride would be rough, as I've been through quite a lot in my life, but I had no clue just how rough. I will be trying to pick up the pieces of our lives until the day I die. Sadly, they'll go into a pile. There's no gluing them back. We are broken. And, it's not even over yet.

As for the money aspect. That rent is not free. That house is her jail. She deserves a generous paycheck and more. Whoever disagrees can try trading places with her doing exactly what she does day in and out. She's not living. She's marching time so that others may live.

I half apologize if this post sounds harsh. I'm quite bitter, as you can probably tell.

Edited October 20, 2022 by pitterpatter

[Arcadia]

12 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

.  Having said that, is she going to inherit a life interest in the family home?  If not, where will she live after your parents pass away?  That’s when things can get REALLY ugly.

 

2 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

As for the money aspect. That rent is not free. That house is her jail. She deserves a generous paycheck and more. Whoever disagrees can try trading places with her doing exactly what she does day in and out. She's not living. She's marching time so that others may live.

I know someone single whose mom is in her 90s. She is staying with her mom and basically doing similar to OP’s sister role. Her brother has told her that she would be kicked out if and when their mom passed because the house is his. She and her sister are executors of her mom’s will and it’s unlikely that her mom would make her homeless. 

[annandatje]

Yes, he will be furious but sounds like family needs to pursue incompetency claim.  I know it is heartbreaking, especially when parent opposed to it.  BTDT with a relative.  Somebody has to step up and make the tough decisions when everyone else is spouting their opinions and wringing their hands.  Be forewarned that you may be target of vitriol from both the parent and family members that may oppose it.  If another family member is ludicrous enough to hire an attorney to fight the incompetency claim (it happens), step away and absolve yourself of any responsibility in the matter.  The opposing parties can then completely take over the care of the parent.  You can visit the parent and maybe do light tasks while there but do not set a bad precedent by taking on more responsibility because the opposition bit off more than they could chew.

[Tiberia]

I would recommend having the sister take a two week vacation for mental health, and get her out of range of the possibility of helping. Then see what happens, and see if other sib steps up to pay for care or offer care. This would also allow sister the time to figure out if she wants to continue in this role. It would give you a realistic view of what parents are capable of handling on their own.

You and sis shouldn’t have to pick up all the pieces of other peoples’ bad decisions and denials of reality.

[QueenCat]

13 minutes ago, Tiberia said:

I would recommend having the sister take a two week vacation for mental health, and get her out of range of the possibility of helping. Then see what happens, and see if other sib steps up to pay for care or offer care. This would also allow sister the time to figure out if she wants to continue in this role. It would give you a realistic view of what parents are capable of handling on their own.

You and sis shouldn’t have to pick up all the pieces of other peoples’ bad decisions and denials of reality.

I agree. This sister needs a break, even if others don't want to step in. And she needs to decide if she wants to continue. She CAN choose to move out & only help some instead of being the main one. Sometimes it's necessary to step back even if it's hard & makes things harder for others.

[Acadie]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think that it would be a good idea to advocate for your sister by assessing the financial value of her unpaid assistance, offsetting the room and board value, to get your other sibling onto your and her side in how to care for your parents.  Having said that, is she going to inherit a life interest in the family home?  If not, where will she live after your parents pass away?  That’s when things can get REALLY ugly.

It's a great idea to assess the value of her contributions and of services that they would need if she weren't there. I don't anticipate issues with the house--value will be split among sibs and she will enjoy moving on if she hasn't already. 

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

I think I might privately reply to the uninvolved sibling's "calculations" with the going rate for live-in 24h eldercare professionals. (Or maybe not live-in 24h if they don't yet need that -- but something reasonable like daily homecare visits, housecleaning, grocery delivery, professional driving for appointments, etc. Whatever is reasonable.) And the rate for legal professionals to help mind the legal business. Then "offer" to consider the route of securing professional-care instead of family-care if paying one-third(?) of that monthly bill seems attainable to them. Or you could offer to consider 'charging' your sister rent, and 'paying' her for her skills -- but you think your sister would come out ahead. To you, your sister volunteering her very valuable time and years off of her life: living somewhere she doesn't choose, prioritizing the needs of other people, etc... is worth it's weight in gold.

But, really this may be a little bit "about you" -- *you* really like that your sister is there, minding the fort and taking everything off your mind and off your plate. But if your sister doesn't like it, and your dad doesn't like it, and your under-involved sibling doesn't like it... maybe it's not actually the best solution, regardless of how practical it seems? Many families resist professional care solutions well beyond the point where they would truly be a relief for everyone. If that's what a good portion of people in the situation would maybe prefer... it's worth putting it on the table and looking it in the eye.

Or maybe just the legal stuff? Are there no paralegal services or something who could be trusted with your family affairs? It would cost, but at least it would be done, and it wouldn't be any of the siblings job to get it done.

Fabulous ideas for specific costs to consider.

And thank you for pointing out my interests in her staying. It does make me feel like they're safer but really may not be right for her.

I am 100% sure we haven't acknowledged and tried to meet her needs for support as primary caregiver. I'm going to ask her what kind of support could be helpful and see what we can shift there, and keep returning to the question of whether it's just not right for her.

My dad grew up during the Depression and doesn't want to pay anyone for anything. He can do it all himself! He always had a tendency to economize but not wanting to pay others too much, or for what he thinks he can do himself, has become a fixation wrapped up in anxiety about losing control. 

[Acadie]

1 hour ago, pitterpatter said:

I half apologize if this post sounds harsh. I'm quite bitter, as you can probably tell.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your taking the time to write this, @pitterpatter. And I'm so sorry that elder care has taken so much from you and your family, especially when it's come from a place of altruism and caring. It helps me see how this situation could be an endless drain and sacrifice for my sister.

Her kids are grown and it was good timing for her when she first moved in with my folks, but that doesn't mean it's a healthy situation for her now. 

Sending all good energy to lift the burdens and reclaim space and time for you and your family. 

[wintermom]

I would strongly encourage looking into home help/support for your parents sooner rather than later for a few reasons. This support would probably be a benefit to your caregiver sister and your parents (an objective outsider may be able to give feedback on health issues family miss) - it can also be good in recording current baseline levels of your parents' physical and mental capacity for future reference. Also, if your caregiver sister decides to move out, you'll have support already in place. Additionally, if there is a cost to these services, it's something tangible to show the uninvolved sibling regarding the financial costs of caregivers.

In addition to the home support, I'd talk with your caregiver sister about mapping out respite times for her own physical and mental wellbeing. If the uninvolved sibling wants to save money, they can come and caregive the parents while your sister is away. "Put your money where your mouth is," sounds right to me. If you are sticking your nose into decision making, then you have to adult-up and be present. Emails are useless in caregiving - but they are great tools for stiring up negative emotions.

Edited October 20, 2022 by wintermom

[Storygirl]

I'm sorry. I'll just chime in to say that Dad told me that the cost of my mother's care in a nursing home was over $100,000 per year. That's for one person's care. If the uninvolved sib wants to complain about the "free" rent, I think that is easy to counter with some cold, hard money facts. You could contact resources local to your parents and find out how much they would cost, just so you have some figures.

Chances are that the uninvolved sibling will continue to stir the pot, even with the finances spelled out, so this is not a solution, just a suggestion.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

58 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I'm sorry. I'll just chime in to say that Dad told me that the cost of my mother's care in a nursing home was over $100,000 per year. That's for one person's care. If the uninvolved sib wants to complain about the "free" rent, I think that is easy to counter with some cold, hard money facts. You could contact resources local to your parents and find out how much they would cost, just so you have some figures.

Chances are that the uninvolved sibling will continue to stir the pot, even with the finances spelled out, so this is not a solution, just a suggestion.

 

That’s a bargain.

Nursing homes where my parents live are over $20K per month.  And a TON more than that if PT and/or OT are involved.

[Faith-manor]

Gently here as one person who is so burned out on elder care giving that I can hardly breath and two siblings who do nothing but have strong opinions, let your sister move on even if it means you help her financially to get settled. This is no way to live. Elders who insist on aging in place when that requires one of their children to destroy their own health need a reality check. And frankly, they do have the right to age in place and endure disaster and tragedy. There is little you can do to stop it.

Give your mother the phone numbers for hired health care workers, the community department for the aging who may be able to provide some housekeeping and handyman work. We forced our mothers to do this, and so now they get four of hours of assistance per week. It isn't a lot, but it gets the bathroom disinfected, dusting done, and laundry which is especially hard for my mother in law with her vertebra degeneration. Meals on Wheels will often deliver one meal per day. The other meals can be fruit and fresh veggies, cheese and boiled eggs prepped by the housekeeper if they are eligible which they probably are.

See if there are any neighbors who would like to earn some side money by delivering a hot meal twice per week. Tell them it doesn't have to be elaborate, just nutritious. Give them grocery funds and agree on a wage for cooking and delivery. Mother in law is now paying someone to take her grocery shopping once per week, and to bring the groceries in and put them away.

But you need to get your sister out. Nursing homes and assisted care have shifts of people. No one works or is on call 24/7/365. Your sister is going to have her mental and physical health destroyed. And personally, I give you permission to tell your nosy sibling to shut the eff up! Seriously. I told my brother where to go and when to get there, and reminded him that I absolutely would dump ALL mom's needs on him, and then report him for elder neglect if he didn't meet them if kept messing around making more work for me, and devaluing what I do! I was not playing. My mental health was hanging by a thread. He shut up. In my experience, the warmonger in the family has no intention of doing any work and when faced with the real possibility of having to put up or shut up, shuts up.

Incompetency is such a high bar, I doubt you can mount the case unless he has been diagnosed with a specific dementia like Alzheimer's. The petition would also need to come from your mom in all likelihood in order for it to be seriously considered by the court. It is worth it if you can really make a case, but you need the advice of a very experienced elder care attorney before making a decision to pursue or not.

Ultimately, there is very little that you can force on them at all. But what you can do is get your sister out. If you don't, you could end up with her crashing and then needing care which compounds the problem and does no one any good.

[katilac]

My first thought was, are the remaining siblings willing to present a united front to the asshat sibling, and would that do any good? But then I read the other replies, and it reminded me that your sister is in a brutal, thankless situation no matter what, and she should get out. That's really the solution, and then the chips will fall where they may. I know it's scary to think of your parents being alone, but you can't control them. They can afford help, so hopefully they realize they need it before something bad happens. 

Did anyone confront asshat sibling when he sent out that letter? Or does he just get away with being a jerk? Somebody needs to get in his face and tell him that your sister deserves far more than she's getting, not less. Since when is free rent and a low hourly rate a fair trade for sacrificing your life? That makes me furious, it really does. How dare he? She should get more in the will, not an equal split. She should be covered in jewels and wearing a golden crown, sheesh. 

I don't know your chances, but it is definitely time to pursue incompetency or some other solution (if one exists). Your family needs an elder care lawyer specifically, to look at the entire picture. Who handles legal stuff? Who handles daily finances, and will someone else handle major finances? How do you best handle the scenario of your sister moving out? It sounds like there's some money there, so a legal spend-down for Medicare services needs to be addressed if it hasn't. This can't be done quickly enough. 

Please give your sister your support if she wants to leave (and she definitely should). 

 

 

[katilac]

4 hours ago, wintermom said:

I would recommend that the involved sibling take a break/vacation and the uninvolved sibling step in and take over all the duties. The uninvolved sibling seems to need a reality check, as for whatever reason, they don't understand. Care-giving older parents is completely exhausting, physically and mentally. You need to be in the thick of it to fully appreciate this, and observing from a distance is clearly interferring with the uninvolved sibling's knowledge of what your sister is actually dealing with.

I don't even think this would work on that kind of person, because they'd probably just let a lot of things slide for a few weeks, and it's not enough time to truly understand the exhaustion even if they do a good job. 

[Tap]

Have her pay rent, and them pay her for her services. She will come out further ahead. ❤️

[Grace Hopper]

6 hours ago, wintermom said:

I would recommend that the involved sibling take a break/vacation and the uninvolved sibling step in and take over all the duties. The uninvolved sibling seems to need a reality check, as for whatever reason, they don't understand. Care-giving older parents is completely exhausting, physically and mentally. You need to be in the thick of it to fully appreciate this, and observing from a distance is clearly interferring with the uninvolved sibling's knowledge of what your sister is actually dealing with.

And you can guarantee the list made of the value of her living rent free did not include the offsetting costs of her forgone opportunities should she not be performing elder care duties. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[Resilient]

We looked into this when my mom and sister were living together. Mom was in the 1970s as far as understanding how much rent should be, and while it took awhile we got her to understand the monetary value of my sister's caregiving.  My sister was able to keep a full-time job so that is a different scenario. 

I looked into it on my sister's behalf, and found that there are steps you can take to become *named* caregiver, and get funding from somewhere to pay a "salary" (which still doesn't make up for the lost lifetime of the caregiver, I grant that). I wish I could remember more details but I can't right now. 

In Mom's last days we had to do some odd things to get her to address the reality of her situation.  She was bed-bound, and couldn't even sit up anymore, and yet:

Mom: "I want to take you to dinner." (You can't argue the point; it's just so far out of reality.)
Me: "OK Mom. You get dressed and I'll go get the car when you are ready to go."

Caretaking sister might be able to dial it back a bit in place, to get the point across.

"Where's my dinner?"
"I don't know. Here's a number you can call to order takeout and delivery.  Delivery adds $10 to the price, and you'll owe a tip."

"I don't have any clean clothes!"
"Wow-you must have fallen behind in your laundry. The laundromat will pick it up and do it for you, and it only adds $25 to the cost."

"We're out of butter!"
"Here's the phone number for the store. They take orders and deliver for an extra $25."

or, to all of the above,
"Wow. Here's Sister's phone number. I'm sure she will run out and get all this done for you."

And I agree with the vacay and I also think it was GREAT that my sister kept her job, because it was security for her, and it showed Mom (who really was a good sort, and not crabby...) what help she really did need, despite her own feelings about it.  In the last year of her life, Mom ponied up the cash, at least coming closer to what it should have been.  When the will was executed, my sister is got the difference that she should have been paid by Mom from my share (my choice, not Mom's--Mom was all about being "fair" (even-steven). I monetized the things my sister did for Mom, and found that Mom should have been paying her $1500 more a month. So, using fake numbers, the inheritance was $100,000 apiece, and I sent my sister $1500 x 30 months of care to make up the difference for what Mom should have paid her all along.  My inheritance turned out to be around $55,000. 

It's not a parallel situation to yours, in so many ways, and while it is not possible for everyone to be on the front lines, for many reasons, it IS possible for people to be decent and respectful. The Good Sister might have to take some steps to point that out...and it might not do any good anyway.  I'm really sorry you are in this situation.  It was hard enough in our generally cooperative family.  Even though Mom didn't make things right in her lifetime, we did so afterward.  I think if your sister got that caregiver designation, that would give her a leg to stand on in probate. 

As an aside: your parents are a little younger than my mom was when she died.  I think that generation has a very hard time letting go of independence, of "making it by my bootstraps", of letting go of money (Depression/leftover Depression mentality).  And it was hard on my sister, too, because she is no spring chicken, and it was NOT easy being a caretaker and she saw her life slipping away.  More than once, she remarked "When Mom was my age, she was traveling to Europe, or playing tennis after work..." I really felt for her.  

I don't think this has been a really helpful post, but maybe there is a suggestion or two in there that can spur some creativity or put steel in a spine, if that is what is needed.  I wish you all the best. This is hard enough without one person bearing too much of the load. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Resilient

[Resilient]

3 hours ago, Acadie said:

Her kids are grown and it was good timing for her when she first moved in with my folks, but that doesn't mean it's a healthy situation for her now. 

This. For one thing, everyone was younger then, and the needs were less.  It's the frog in the pot sort of situation. 

[Grace Hopper]

5 hours ago, pitterpatter said:

Honestly, if you love your local sibling at all, I would help find a way to get her out of that situation. As someone who has pretty much lost her entire life as a result of being the familial elder care sacrifice, no amount of money is worth it. (I've been paid nothing. And, I've tried to "preserve assets" for my sister. 🙄) I tried to be altruistic, but I selfishly robbed my daughter and husband of their lives in the process. (Honestly, I was given no choice. No one would help me. And, to this day, short of packing up, turning my back, and moving away, I can't figure out how I would have changed it.) There have been zero positives in the experience. I was used and cajoled into an identity that I never wanted. All other family got to keep their lives. Good for them. They did what they had to do to keep their lives in tact, I suppose. I knew the ride would be rough, as I've been through quite a lot in my life, but I had no clue just how rough. I will be trying to pick up the pieces of our lives until the day I die. Sadly, they'll go into a pile. There's no gluing them back. We are broken. And, it's not even over yet.

As for the money aspect. That rent is not free. That house is her jail. She deserves a generous paycheck and more. Whoever disagrees can try trading places with her doing exactly what she does day in and out. She's not living. She's marching time so that others may live.

I half apologize if this post sounds harsh. I'm quite bitter, as you can probably tell.

💯 

One can have the kindest heart, most sacrificial spirit, and still not be able to do this for uncooperative elders and without sibling support. 
 

My first live in elder moved into managed care just in time, just before I cracked. My then-middle schooler paid a high price, something I’ll never not feel guilty about. 

5 hours ago, Tiberia said:

I would recommend having the sister take a two week vacation for mental health, and get her out of range of the possibility of helping. Then see what happens, and see if other sib steps up to pay for care or offer care. This would also allow sister the time to figure out if she wants to continue in this role. It would give you a realistic view of what parents are capable of handling on their own.

You and sis shouldn’t have to pick up all the pieces of other peoples’ bad decisions and denials of reality.

It should be a no-contact break! A true vacation for her. 

3 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I'm sorry. I'll just chime in to say that Dad told me that the cost of my mother's care in a nursing home was over $100,000 per year. That's for one person's care. If the uninvolved sib wants to complain about the "free" rent, I think that is easy to counter with some cold, hard money facts. You could contact resources local to your parents and find out how much they would cost, just so you have some figures.

Chances are that the uninvolved sibling will continue to stir the pot, even with the finances spelled out, so this is not a solution, just a suggestion.

 

Yep. We had a problem with some extended family members wanting to “preserve assets.” But the quickest way to lose assets is to drive off caregivers and have to pay for a move to a SNF. 

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Gently here as one person who is so burned out on elder care giving that I can hardly breath and two siblings who do nothing but have strong opinions, let your sister move on even if it means you help her financially to get settled. This is no way to live. Elders who insist on aging in place when that requires one of their children to destroy their own health need a reality check. And frankly, they do have the right to age in place and endure disaster and tragedy. There is little you can do to stop it.

Give your mother the phone numbers for hired health care workers, the community department for the aging who may be able to provide some housekeeping and handyman work. We forced our mothers to do this, and so now they get four of hours of assistance per week. It isn't a lot, but it gets the bathroom disinfected, dusting done, and laundry which is especially hard for my mother in law with her vertebra degeneration. Meals on Wheels will often deliver one meal per day. The other meals can be fruit and fresh veggies, cheese and boiled eggs prepped by the housekeeper if they are eligible which they probably are.

See if there are any neighbors who would like to earn some side money by delivering a hot meal twice per week. Tell them it doesn't have to be elaborate, just nutritious. Give them grocery funds and agree on a wage for cooking and delivery. Mother in law is now paying someone to take her grocery shopping once per week, and to bring the groceries in and put them away.

But you need to get your sister out. Nursing homes and assisted care have shifts of people. No one works or is on call 24/7/365. Your sister is going to have her mental and physical health destroyed. And personally, I give you permission to tell your nosy sibling to shut the eff up! Seriously. I told my brother where to go and when to get there, and reminded him that I absolutely would dump ALL mom's needs on him, and then report him for elder neglect if he didn't meet them if kept messing around making more work for me, and devaluing what I do! I was not playing. My mental health was hanging by a thread. He shut up. In my experience, the warmonger in the family has no intention of doing any work and when faced with the real possibility of having to put up or shut up, shuts up.

Incompetency is such a high bar, I doubt you can mount the case unless he has been diagnosed with a specific dementia like Alzheimer's. The petition would also need to come from your mom in all likelihood in order for it to be seriously considered by the court. It is worth it if you can really make a case, but you need the advice of a very experienced elder care attorney before making a decision to pursue or not.

Ultimately, there is very little that you can force on them at all. But what you can do is get your sister out. If you don't, you could end up with her crashing and then needing care which compounds the problem and does no one any good.

All of this. I have little patience for grown adults of financial means who refuse to consider their own elder care needs and plan accordingly. Unless this is something your sister actually *wants* to do, she deserves a life.
 

I love my elders. I was/am willing to provide all kinds of assistance. I am not averse to making sacrifices for loved ones. But I will not again voluntarily become a permanent, live-in, uncompensated care giver to a belligerent elder.  

[mom2scouts]

We're in the process of looking for care for my parents. We live in an area with a low COL and the cheapest places are $5000 per month. Somehow I doubt your sister's rent is worth $10,000 of caring for two elderly people. The uninvolved sibling is clueless. I like the idea of the sister getting a break and having the other sibling do her job for a week or two.

[Starr]

I would consider how much chaos non involved family members can cause doing short term ‘help’. 

[saraha]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Gently here as one person who is so burned out on elder care giving that I can hardly breath and two siblings who do nothing but have strong opinions, let your sister move on even if it means you help her financially to get settled. This is no way to live. Elders who insist on aging in place when that requires one of their children to destroy their own health need a reality check. And frankly, they do have the right to age in place and endure disaster and tragedy. There is little you can do to stop it.

Give your mother the phone numbers for hired health care workers, the community department for the aging who may be able to provide some housekeeping and handyman work. We forced our mothers to do this, and so now they get four of hours of assistance per week. It isn't a lot, but it gets the bathroom disinfected, dusting done, and laundry which is especially hard for my mother in law with her vertebra degeneration. Meals on Wheels will often deliver one meal per day. The other meals can be fruit and fresh veggies, cheese and boiled eggs prepped by the housekeeper if they are eligible which they probably are.

See if there are any neighbors who would like to earn some side money by delivering a hot meal twice per week. Tell them it doesn't have to be elaborate, just nutritious. Give them grocery funds and agree on a wage for cooking and delivery. Mother in law is now paying someone to take her grocery shopping once per week, and to bring the groceries in and put them away.

But you need to get your sister out. Nursing homes and assisted care have shifts of people. No one works or is on call 24/7/365. Your sister is going to have her mental and physical health destroyed. And personally, I give you permission to tell your nosy sibling to shut the eff up! Seriously. I told my brother where to go and when to get there, and reminded him that I absolutely would dump ALL mom's needs on him, and then report him for elder neglect if he didn't meet them if kept messing around making more work for me, and devaluing what I do! I was not playing. My mental health was hanging by a thread. He shut up. In my experience, the warmonger in the family has no intention of doing any work and when faced with the real possibility of having to put up or shut up, shuts up.

Incompetency is such a high bar, I doubt you can mount the case unless he has been diagnosed with a specific dementia like Alzheimer's. The petition would also need to come from your mom in all likelihood in order for it to be seriously considered by the court. It is worth it if you can really make a case, but you need the advice of a very experienced elder care attorney before making a decision to pursue or not.

Ultimately, there is very little that you can force on them at all. But what you can do is get your sister out. If you don't, you could end up with her crashing and then needing care which compounds the problem and does no one any good.

All of this. I was losing my mind earlier this year over care for my in-laws. Dh and I got on the same page and said “I’m sorry, but this is what we are willing to do. The End” It was a life saver for me, but it has been hard on dh to now be considered an outsider for taking a stand. Even though we are not doing or making ourselves available any less than anyone else, we are on the outs. And it hurts him every week, but he’s working on that.

[livetoread]

2 hours ago, Starr said:

I would consider how much chaos non involved family members can cause doing short term ‘help’. 

This is very important. We had an uninvolved sibling swoop in over the holidays and cause so much damage it took months of work to get things settled back down. He got my poor, sweet MIL all riled up about this and that, including feeding her lies about the other siblings who have been saints in caring for her, and it was such a mess. So yeah, think carefully about involving uninvolved siblings.

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Starr said:

I would consider how much chaos non involved family members can cause doing short term ‘help’. 

Yeah, I think they should just skip to the chase and start getting things in place for sis to leave. A meeting with an elder care lawyer cannot happen soon enough. 

People who aren't helping or being supportive now aren't going to suddenly learn their lesson and change. My grandmother moved in with my parents for the last 20 years of her life. Even though she didn't need care, the multiple local siblings sucked hard at taking over for a weekend or even an afternoon. Heck, some of them sucked hard at visiting, and we are talking 10 to 20 minute drives. 

The Venn diagram of those who sucked at being supportive and those who cried the hardest at the funeral was pretty much a circle. I've seen it with other families as well, and I call it guilt sobbing. 

[mom31257]

I have no real advice since I have not been in this situation, but I am so sorry you are facing it. I hope that you, as a family, can come to the best conclusion for you all, and that the uninvolved sibling will come to realize the reality of the situation and contribute in a healthy, helpful way. 

I am also reading this knowing that our future is committed to my dad moving in with us when the time comes because I live closest to him and have the best situation for him. He is 85 and has Parkinson's. He was only diagnosed last year, and he is doing very well now that he is on medication. So I want to glean all I can from these discussions. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by mom31257

[Faith-manor]

6 hours ago, katilac said:

Yeah, I think they should just skip to the chase and start getting things in place for sis to leave. A meeting with an elder care lawyer cannot happen soon enough. 

People who aren't helping or being supportive now aren't going to suddenly learn their lesson and change. My grandmother moved in with my parents for the last 20 years of her life. Even though she didn't need care, the multiple local siblings sucked hard at taking over for a weekend or even an afternoon. Heck, some of them sucked hard at visiting, and we are talking 10 to 20 minute drives. 

The Venn diagram of those who sucked at being supportive and those who cried the hardest at the funeral was pretty much a circle. I've seen it with other families as well, and I call it guilt sobbing. 

This.

When my father died after putting me through hell and back (much of it by his own choice, no dementia there), it was my brother blubbering at his funeral though he had not lifted a finger to care for him. My sister and I were so relieved, and just wanted the damn funeral over because we were so bone tired exhausted from caring for him, and my mother in a fit of not thinking had a public funeral knowing that her entire damn church plus the whole community would show up (dad was a prominent business person). Over 500 at the funeral. Another 350 for the viewing. Though we paid for the custodial team to clean up, we were still expected to physically clean. Note that my lazy a$$ brother didn't lift a finger for that either. Sis and I have vowed that we won't hold a funeral for mom when the time comes. Instead, we are having a private back yard barbecue with a few friends, and our nieces and nephews and their spouses. My brother and his wife will not be invited.

Guilt sobbing might be a thing for sure. In my brother's case, I am fairly certain it was putting on a show for his friends, colleagues, and pastor. I think he is too self centered to feel actual guilt.

Get sis out now, OP! You cannot stop your mother from deferring to your father. She is making that choice all on her own. It is also not your responsibility to prevent them from taking the consequences of running your sister into the ground and not paying her, and your dad and other sibling not caring, and denigrating her. They can hire help and find out that employees have a lot of personal boundaries that family doesn't have or they can go to a facility and deal with that fall out. Please, please preserve your sister's health and future.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Faith-manor

[ScoutTN]

OP, I would get your sister out permanently. Now. She likely needs both a vacation and some counseling after such stressful times. 

Definitely schedule a meeting with an elder care lawyer asap so you can make a game plan.

It may take letting things fall apart temporarily for all parties involved to understand the reality of the situation. Since your parents have the financial resources, those need to be used to provide appropriate care. 
 

My 86 yo mom lives in AL and has for about 4 years. Great decision. (Her decision.) Having professional caregivers gets her better care 24/7 than I could ever provide. It gets her a built-in social life. It gives her some privacy. It allows me to just be a daughter; it preserves our relationship. I know you said AL would not work for your parents, but please free your sister from trying to do what a team of people need to be doing. 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by ScoutTN

[saraha]

We are currently in the letting things fall apart stage. Dh’s brother and sister have not really stepped in to fill in the gaps I left, but fil did allow us to find a couple of ladies to come in three mornings a week to babysit mil and do some light housekeeping. Two grown grandsons have really stepped in, one providing babysitting for mil and one helping fil around the farm. I still bring over food several times a week and provide company as well as organizing an outing for them with us at least once a month and making sure my kids who have moved out or at college call every so often to give him some one to talk too. The house is not as clean as it should be, fil is exhausted all the time and has now been referred to a neurologist as his executive functioning never really rebounded after covid. Prior to all this in-laws, dh and his brother and sister met with a lawyer and one of the things that was stressed during all the planning, trust and will making etc is that fil and mil wanted to age in place. Bil has admitted that was a mistake. I go back and read some of the posts I made during the height of their care giving and I sound unhinged.
It felt cruel to say “You know what? I can’t help you if you don’t ask for it. I’m not going to plan my life around trying to guess what will be helpful. We will gladly help, all you need to do is ask.” But now with space on it, dh can see it is pride and stubbornness that makes his dad make the choices he does and not that dh isn’t a good enough son. I can’t tell you how much this has affected our planning for the future, stuff I had never thought about before, but that dh and I are aware we need to get in writing before one of us loses their mind.

You are a good daughter to care so much that your parents and your sister are cared about properly, I definitely join the chorus saying please help your sister get a better situation for herself.

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

We are currently in the letting things fall apart stage. Dh’s brother and sister have not really stepped in to fill in the gaps I left, but fil did allow us to find a couple of ladies to come in three mornings a week to babysit mil and do some light housekeeping. Two grown grandsons have really stepped in, one providing babysitting for mil and one helping fil around the farm. I still bring over food several times a week and provide company as well as organizing an outing for them with us at least once a month and making sure my kids who have moved out or at college call every so often to give him some one to talk too. The house is not as clean as it should be, fil is exhausted all the time and has now been referred to a neurologist as his executive functioning never really rebounded after covid. Prior to all this in-laws, dh and his brother and sister met with a lawyer and one of the things that was stressed during all the planning, trust and will making etc is that fil and mil wanted to age in place. Bil has admitted that was a mistake. I go back and read some of the posts I made during the height of their care giving and I sound unhinged.
It felt cruel to say “You know what? I can’t help you if you don’t ask for it. I’m not going to plan my life around trying to guess what will be helpful. We will gladly help, all you need to do is ask.” But now with space on it, dh can see it is pride and stubbornness that makes his dad make the choices he does and not that dh isn’t a good enough son. I can’t tell you how much this has affected our planning for the future, stuff I had never thought about before, but that dh and I are aware we need to get in writing before one of us loses their mind.

You are a good daughter to care so much that your parents and your sister are cared about properly, I definitely join the chorus saying please help your sister get a better situation for herself.

Thanks for the update. I wondered how it was going. I'm glad you have peace with your decision

 

[saraha]

28 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Thanks for the update. I wondered how it was going. I'm glad you have peace with your decision

 

It’s definitely been harder on dh. This is not how he envisioned life with his family to turn out. There is so much with the shared farm work etc but he realizes that the relationship he thought he had with his siblings is not what was the actual relationship and that they are not really people he would want to spend time with if they weren’t related. I feel bad for him. 
But I am good and on a much better place.

[Storygirl]

14 hours ago, katilac said:

Yeah, I think they should just skip to the chase and start getting things in place for sis to leave. A meeting with an elder care lawyer cannot happen soon enough. 

People who aren't helping or being supportive now aren't going to suddenly learn their lesson and change. My grandmother moved in with my parents for the last 20 years of her life. Even though she didn't need care, the multiple local siblings sucked hard at taking over for a weekend or even an afternoon. Heck, some of them sucked hard at visiting, and we are talking 10 to 20 minute drives. 

The Venn diagram of those who sucked at being supportive and those who cried the hardest at the funeral was pretty much a circle. I've seen it with other families as well, and I call it guilt sobbing. 

The day my mother died, the people who were the most visibly upset were two of the people who never visited her in the nursing home for nine years, even though they lived 10 minutes away. So.... yes I've seen this happen, too.

[Katy]

I missed the original post. I know plenty of people in the medical field who intend to care for their parents as they age, but I don’t know any who intend to care for someone with dementia. Early stage dementia = immediate move into a licensed nursing home with a locked memory unit. If it’s too hard for RN’s it’s definitely too hard for ordinary people.

[Grace Hopper]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

I missed the original post. I know plenty of people in the medical field who intend to care for their parents as they age, but I don’t know any who intend to care for someone with dementia. Early stage dementia = immediate move into a licensed nursing home with a locked memory unit. If it’s too hard for RN’s it’s definitely too hard for ordinary people.

Yep. As I’ve said before, dementia is a game changer. 

[City Mouse]

I agree with getting the sister out of that house. I won’t share my own family horror story now, but there is one. 
Since your parents have the financial resources to pay for the support they need, they should be doing that. If they choose not to pay for the help they need, it is not on you or your sister to enable their bad choices. 
Self-neglect is still neglect, and a call to adult protective services may need to happen in the future. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Huge hugs 

My sil and dh family went through something like this. Sil was living 5 nights a week helping  parents  in 90s  the other sister was so mad that she almost convinced mil that dil should be paying rent. Meanwhile other sister was paying herself hundreds of dollars  to visit each week. 

Fil died just after mil had a stroke. Mil was moved into a nursing home straight away. And now, At 100  refuses to acnowelage her oldest daughter who looked after her for 7 years even exists. Mil also is demanding that she be released from nursing home and has come up with some way out there idea that instead of her house being sold to cover the increasing nursing home costs. Her children can each pay their salaries over to the nursing home. Not happening. 

Makes me wonder why people want to live to  a  ancient age.

[Faith-manor]

11 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Huge hugs 

My sil and dh family went through something like this. Sil was living 5 nights a week helping  parents  in 90s  the other sister was so mad that she almost convinced mil that dil should be paying rent. Meanwhile other sister was paying herself hundreds of dollars  to visit each week. 

Fil died just after mil had a stroke. Mil was moved into a nursing home straight away. And now, At 100  refuses to acnowelage her oldest daughter who looked after her for 7 years even exists. Mil also is demanding that she be released from nursing home and has come up with some way out there idea that instead of her house being sold to cover the increasing nursing home costs. Her children can each pay their salaries over to the nursing home. Not happening. 

Makes me wonder why people want to live to  a  ancient age.

Wow! That is awful! As for living to an ancient age, that is a hard nope for me. I already have a general age and set of failing health parameters in mind for when I will take a one way trip to Switzerland for assisted suicide. I absolutely refuse to do to my kids what my elderly relatives have done to me.