Stereotypes of homeschoolers

[Ottakee]

You was talking to a friend today that teaches a lot of homeschoolers through a local public school funding program.   She said in general the homeschool kids don’t listen, don’t follow instruction, challenge her authority, and the moms are super helicopter moms.

She works with over 70 different kids a week so this isn’t just one or 2 kids or families.  She works with them for 1/2 hour on a recreational PE sport and works with just 1-2 kids at a time.

Honestly she is frustrated with the behavior of the kids.   She has been teaching kids this sport for over 25 years and often 75+ kids a week (outside of the homeschoolers) so she is not new to teaching or kid behavior, etc.

Any tips for her?  The parents?   Sadly, while I know that not all homeschoolers are like this at all, sadly I have seen way too much of it as well.

[itsheresomewhere]

Hot tea/chocolate/alcohol whatever her prefer vice is and lots of it.

Honestly, this new crop of pandemic homeschoolers has made me extremely hesitant to ever volunteer to teach again.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Things like this vary so much, I think. (Some areas are more pandemic schoolers, some are more unschoolers etc). I would just tell them “this is my expectation in my class. If you want to be in the class you need to abide by it”. But I am old, cranky and too tired for playing games anymore. 

[Hilltopmom]

I agree with her in my experience. However, I’m now teaching public school and having the same experience with the kids this year- so perhaps not related to homeschooling but to parenting.

[prairiewindmomma]

The local crowd here is much like that also. IME in interacting with them, many of the moms are likely neurodiverse or struggling with learning issues. They opted out of the system because they think their kid couldn’t fit into it.

I would recommend putting as much structure into the system as she can: strict signups, behavioral policies, and so on.

Fwiw my public school teacher friends said the kids came back from the pandemic downright feral. They are still working on getting behavioral standards back to a semblance of what they were in 2019. Based on what my kids describe (trashed bathrooms, fights, self-regulation issues), it’s like a lot of those kids went through trauma. In fact, our district has added a ton of support on trauma informed classroom management and the therapists have been doing stress management and self regulation work with every class, every grade.

[whitestavern]

I interacted with many different types of homeschoolers and can honestly say I never met any kids like you’re describing. My kids are 20 and 22 now. I wonder if it’s more a “sign of the times” and just where parents of young children are at it or if it’s truly a homeschooler thing. 

[freesia]

I just spent the morning as I he administer in charge at a co-op with 60 families. All classes went smoothly (3 periods.). The kids were focused and on task. I didn’t deal with or see any behavior problems.  It’s not homeschoolers as a group. That type of behavior is far more common in the public schoolers we encounter at soccer and church. 

[heartlikealion]

Agree to outlining expectations up front. And/or consequences. 

Are the mom present the whole time? Chiming in? I’m wondering what makes them helicopter parents in the class. 

[J-rap]

Wow, I'm sorry to hear that.  In our community, homeschoolers had such a good reputation that public school teachers and coaches were always trying to get them to play on their sports teams, be in their plays, music groups, etc.  But my kids are in their 20's and 30's now so perhaps times have changed.

I think I'd just advise her to be very specific about expectations and consequences, and make sure the parents get a print-out of them as well.

[happi duck]

From twenty years ago up until the present, my least favorite group to teach is homeschoolers. (My teaching before that was never homeschoolers)

(Of course #notallhomeschoolers)

I agree with others to set clear guidelines and be ready to enforce them.

Edited September 24, 2022 by happi duck

[Carrie12345]

I haven’t taught other homeschoolers since before covid. 
That said, I’m hearing a lot of public school parents chattering about their kids having a lot of behavioral troubles in class. My 4yo nephew’s school is contemplating self-contained. My friend is stressing about what they’re going to do with her 8yo. Her friends were commiserating with her about their kids’ classroom troubles.

I don’t know if it’s all connected or not, but it feels like something is going on. 

[Ottakee]

8 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Agree to outlining expectations up front. And/or consequences. 

Are the mom present the whole time? Chiming in? I’m wondering what makes them helicopter parents in the class. 

Parents can watch from a viewing area.   
 

The frustration this week was a parent of a 16 year old girl who slipped and fell, was asked if she was OK, said yes she was, was asked if she wanted to continue the lesson and she said yes so they did.  The mom wrote a very long email about how dangerous this was and that her 16 year old NT daughter wasn’t able to  answer yes or no on her own to continuing the lesson.  

[HomeAgain]

I think sometimes community feeds community.  I would not have done well working with homeschooled kids at our last home.  There was a lot of buzz about "alternative learning" and "following passions", which often meant a lack of discipline.  However, before that many of the kids I did work with were homeschooling due to poor traditional classroom fit, so it was easy to tweak lessons to be more engaging, hands on, and requiring participation.

Regardless, I've been up front with my rules.  The first time is a warning, the second time is an opportunity to go find your parent and explain why you are not in class.  And I guaranteed them that I would be also finding their parent afterward so it was in their interest that our stories matched.  I also had every parent's number in my phone so the child could step out the door, make that call, and get feedback from their parent.  It did not need to happen often.  Only enough that it was an example to the others.

[Jean in Newcastle]

46 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Parents can watch from a viewing area.   
 

The frustration this week was a parent of a 16 year old girl who slipped and fell, was asked if she was OK, said yes she was, was asked if she wanted to continue the lesson and she said yes so they did.  The mom wrote a very long email about how dangerous this was and that her 16 year old NT daughter wasn’t able to  answer yes or no on her own to continuing the lesson.  

“No one is forced to continue if injured or even if they find these classes a bad fit. But I do expect students to articulate their own needs. If there is an issue with their ability to communicate basic needs then it needs to be disclosed prior to classes starting.   Parents are asked not to interrupt normal class proceedings including minor upsets. “. 

[EmilyGF]

When I was having difficulty with a class last year, I got another teacher to sit in and observe me. She kept a grid with columns for time, what I did, what the class did, and any insight. 

I did a lot to improve my teaching, and the master teacher's insight was really useful. In retrospect, I would have done that in the fall instead of late winter. It gave me insight into ways I was feeding bad behavior.

By the end of spring, though, it was clear that there was exactly one kid who was causing all the chaos in my class. He was eventually expelled and my class was amazing after that: I'd grown as a teacher and the difficult child was gone.

That said, I would recommend your friend get a third-party to take notes and see if she can find any patterns with student behavior or teacher behavior. It may even be that there is one person instigating all the problems and that the group problems may just be feeding off one person.

(My problem kid was not homeschooled. My homeschooled kids were great. Actually, all my kids were great except for one.)

Emily

[Insertcreativenamehere]

I don't think this is all homeschoolers. I have taught at a homeschool co-op for three years, ranging from 2nd-10th grades, and other than a few chatty kids, I've had no classroom management issues. 

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

Parents can watch from a viewing area.   
 

The frustration this week was a parent of a 16 year old girl who slipped and fell, was asked if she was OK, said yes she was, was asked if she wanted to continue the lesson and she said yes so they did.  The mom wrote a very long email about how dangerous this was and that her 16 year old NT daughter wasn’t able to  answer yes or no on her own to continuing the lesson.  

in this day & age, I wouldn’t want that teen in my class. 

“Your expectations are not consistent with either the environment of my physical education class or developmentally appropriate teacher-student interactions. In order to protect myself from further liability, I am dismissing your daughter, whatshername, from the hula hoop course. In addition, you are released from any continuing financial obligation and a refund for the balance of the course fee will be processed within five business days.”

[Wheres Toto]

She's only working with 1-2 kids at a time?  So these are semi-private lessons?  Doesn't sound like classroom management is the issue.  Do the kids want to be there?   I'm having trouble imagining working with just one or two kids and having them not pay attention, challenge authority, and not listening when it's basically 1-on-1 lessons, unless they just don't want to be there.    In that situation, I would make sure clear expectations were set at sign up, and if the kids weren't paying attention or challenging me, I would stop the lesson until they were ready to behave.  

I own a business where we teach science classes to homeschoolers.  I've been in business for 6 years, so before the pandemic.  Things haven't changed too much as far as behavior is concerned but we've also never been very rigid.   We get a lot of kids who are not NT since that is probably the most common reason for homeschooling around here, and we work hard to make sure they can be successful, while still emphasizing safety.    If I have a student or group of students who aren't listening or goofing around, I just don't give them the lab materials or make them watch others do the lab.  Not as punishment but because if they weren't listening, they will not know how to do the lab safely.   Usually it only takes once or twice of watching instead of doing for them to realize they are better off behaving.  

Obviously the expectations are different for different ages.  

[pinball]

15 hours ago, Ottakee said:

You was talking to a friend today that teaches a lot of homeschoolers through a local public school funding program.   She said in general the homeschool kids don’t listen, don’t follow instruction, challenge her authority, and the moms are super helicopter moms.

She works with over 70 different kids a week so this isn’t just one or 2 kids or families.  She works with them for 1/2 hour on a recreational PE sport and works with just 1-2 kids at a time.

Honestly she is frustrated with the behavior of the kids.   She has been teaching kids this sport for over 25 years and often 75+ kids a week (outside of the homeschoolers) so she is not new to teaching or kid behavior, etc.

Any tips for her?  The parents?   Sadly, while I know that not all homeschoolers are like this at all, sadly I have seen way too much of it as well.

I think this is funny. She’s not new to kid behavior but somehow doesn’t know how to deal with the most common behavior issues that impact teaching?

It makes me wonder what her preconceptions of homeschoolers were and what her overall attitude to alternative forms of education are.

[EKS]

When my kids were elementary age and going to a public homeschool program, the behavior of the other kids was generally very good.  Perhaps it was because the families that chose that program were interested in the socialization it provided with regard to learning how to behave properly in a school setting.

This was 10+ years ago.  Perhaps things have changed.

[happi duck]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

I think this is funny. She’s not new to kid behavior but somehow doesn’t know how to deal with the most common behavior issues that impact teaching?

It makes me wonder what her preconceptions of homeschoolers were and what her overall attitude to alternative forms of education are.

I'm presuming that the reminders and expectations that work 99% of the time with her usual population are not working.  

She'll obviously adjust.  I presume gathering some info is part of adjusting.

[Ottakee]

This is horseback riding.   My friend wins trainer of the year most years, has a long wait list for her regular lessons, and is a very good instructor.

The homeschool program is paid for my local public schools and homeschoolers can take some classes free of charge.  The students all have the choice of many different activities so I would think they are there because they want to be.

I will let her know to make sure that risks and class expectations are even more clearly spelled out.  Exact class rules and levels and skills taught are already part of the sign up and waivers.

I do think many of the students do turn around after a few weeks and become better learners.   It just feeds into the stereotypes of homeschoolers not wanting to follow the rules, listen, pay attention to direction, etc.  
 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would think that with the addition of a large animal, that it’s even more imperative that students listen for both their own safety and that of the animal. 

[pinball]

58 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

This is horseback riding.   My friend wins trainer of the year most years, has a long wait list for her regular lessons, and is a very good instructor.

The homeschool program is paid for my local public schools and homeschoolers can take some classes free of charge.  The students all have the choice of many different activities so I would think they are there because they want to be.

I will let her know to make sure that risks and class expectations are even more clearly spelled out.  Exact class rules and levels and skills taught are already part of the sign up and waivers.

I do think many of the students do turn around after a few weeks and become better learners.   It just feeds into the stereotypes of homeschoolers not wanting to follow the rules, listen, pay attention to direction, etc.  
 

 

If the exact class rules are spelled out, then there should be a consequence for when the rules are not followed (which should also be a part of the class rules).

Dont listen…one warning

dont listen again, class is over for the day.

 

 

this reminds me of the soccer team thread where it was a big mystery if the participants knew the consequences for missing practice before they joined the team.

 

 

[athena1277]

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

This is horseback riding.   My friend wins trainer of the year most years, has a long wait list for her regular lessons, and is a very good instructor.

The homeschool program is paid for my local public schools and homeschoolers can take some classes free of charge.  The students all have the choice of many different activities so I would think they are there because they want to be.

I will let her know to make sure that risks and class expectations are even more clearly spelled out.  Exact class rules and levels and skills taught are already part of the sign up and waivers.

I do think many of the students do turn around after a few weeks and become better learners.   It just feeds into the stereotypes of homeschoolers not wanting to follow the rules, listen, pay attention to direction, etc.  
 

 

“Free of charge”.  That may be part of the problem.  For some reason some people seem to equate $$ with seriousness of the activity.  Free activities are  seen as for fun only and more relaxed.  I’m sure there’s more to the situation than this, but it could be a part.

[Dmmetler]

I would agree here. When I started a school band program back in my PS days, the principal told me to put a fee on it, even though we had grants to cover the costs because even a $20 fee would mean that the parents and kids took it more seriously, and that it was always possible to find another way for parents/kids to pay fees, but having them made a major difference. He felt that this was the main reason for school supplies lists. Because, yes, we could provide materials if needed for low income kids, but having to buy supplies gave parents some skin in the game. 

 

I've done the same thing for homeschool stuff. Low fee, even if it is used to buy pizza on the way back from the free museum field trip or something. My absolute hardest students and families have been those where I let the kids come for free. 

[Spryte]

I agree that “free” can be a problem — probably for HSers and PSers. A small fee does wonders. Around here, places offer “scholarships” for activities that some families might not be able to afford. Calling it a scholarship and waiving the fee gives the activity more weight, and seems like it makes parents take it more seriously. A TKD place nearby gives a small card to people who might need it, which says that an anonymous person has chosen to pay for their scholarship. It motivates the kids to work even harder, since they don’t know who gave the gift — is it the owner? The director? Another kid’s parent?

As far as homeschool stereotypes, I’ve not seen that kind of behavior where we live, except in one family. That family would have the same issues in brick and mortar school, though, I would guess. Then again, I have not been with large groups of kids post-Covid, so can’t really speak to what’s going on now.

[wendyroo]

The main stereotype of homeschoolers here is that the families are flakey. You can arrange a zoo meet-up and have a dozen families swearing they are going to attend just hours before hand, and show up to find only one family there and another complaining on Facebook that they showed up an hour late and couldn't find the group.

I have seen or been a part of several public school field trips, and those kids were like feral tornadoes: fast, loud, destructive, and paying absolutely no attention to anyone or anything in their path. Homeschoolers around here, on the other hand, tend to be chill, perhaps a bit chatty (to both the other kids and the adults/teachers), and interested and asking a lot of questions. Their one "downfall" tends to be a disinclination to automatically conform to arbitrary directions. I recently had my two youngest at a horseback riding class. The teacher randomly pointed over and called "the girl in the purple shirt" to come get in line for a turn. Purple Shirt asked if her friend So-an-So could be next because she was really eager to go, and Purple Shirt was busy petting the cat. The teacher huffed like it was this huge inconvenience and a usurpation of her authority...when I think most of the parents sitting around viewed it as perfectly polite, social, mature, problem-solving behavior for elementary students.

Edited September 25, 2022 by wendyroo

[Farrar]

I agree with laying out expectations of students and parents really clearly from the get go. A lot of this can be basic assumptions. And in some homeschooling communities, there can arise the expectation that parents be able to be all up in things, that kids be able to opt in or out at a moment's notice, that everything be optional, etc. And for some things, that's okay. But it's clearly not okay in this situation. Just naming it should help.

But also... when I've talked to people who are super annoyed with homeschooler behavior, they usually are people who have zero appreciation for the positives of some of these elements of homeschooling. In my experience, a lot of homeschool kids expect to be able to ask questions, expect to be able to know why and not just follow the rules, expect to be able to try things a different way or invent a new way. These are actually awesome traits. Obviously, they are not awesome traits in all situations though. But if you come into a situation with the assumption that everyone will automatically respect you as the authority, do everything you say without question, and want to do it your way, then that's going to lead to a potential clash right off the bat. I find it helps to appreciate the positive side of these quirky homeschooler traits and then just say when it's not going to work that way. And that goes back to the beginning thing about setting expectations really firmly from the start. I think when you do that, incorporating the why is key for the kids. You can't goof off or do it your own way in this activity because it's literally dangerous.

If she's new to offering this in the last year or so, all kids are weird now. The pandemic made them all weirder. I'm just saying. All kids are behind on academics, social skills, and everything in between. So she may be scapegoating the kids who are newest to her. And they may be pandemic homeschoolers. Those families are nothing like the homeschoolers I knew a decade or more ago.

Of course, these kids could just be snots. The parents could just be jerks. I don't feel like that's a homeschool thing though. Some people are just like that.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Farrar

[Soror]

I've been on a few field trips where there were both ps and hs groups. The hs groups were def better behaved-- quieter and more respectful. The hs'ers also had far more supervision with parent (s) for every family group.

On the negative side--- flakiness--- yep--- show up late or maybe not at all even if they signed up, don't think rules apply to them-- parents and adults--- if you plan to take a trip somewhere/do a class you are agreeing to following their rules-- if you don't like them don't sign up, and lots of helicopter parents.

 

[Dmmetler]

Also, homeschool parents tend to be more likely to stay and participate, so that may be seen as helicoptering. I often write parts for parents in my homeschool group classes because I do have 1-2, and if you're going to be here, I'm handing you a pair of rhythm sticks :). That usually doesn't happen with afterschool groups unless the child isn't neurotypical and mom is essentially being their 1-1. 

I will say I've seen less of that since the pandemic. I think a lot of activities didn't allow or were not allowed to have parents stay, and at least some parents discovered that even if they just wait in their car, it's a nice break 🙂 

 

[Ottakee]

I will run these thoughts and ideas past my friend when I see her this week.

she can’t change anything above what is paid by the school but the free thing might play a role.

and despite what you explicitly say/put in writing some families might just not understand why riding really means

[mom2scouts]

We are doing our first ever homeschool co-op this year and I am teaching a class of 13-16 year old boys and helping in another similar class. My experience is that the students are engaged and well behaved. As my class gets more comfortable with me and each other, there are a couple of boys who disrupt with silly comments, but it's usually easy to get them back on track and continue the lesson.

While I have seen some homeschoolers who were poorly behaved on field trips, I've also been on several homeschool field trips were the docents mention that they love having homeschoolers because they are more interested and engaged and they have better behavior. I agree that free activities tend to attract the homeschool families who are less invested in the activity and wouldn't otherwise be there.

[Clemsondana]

We attend a martial arts school that has been run by the same person for 20+ years.  A few years ago they added morning homeschool classes after realizing how many homeschool kids they had in their evening classes.  In the beginning, a lot of the kids switched back and forth, depending on their schedule.  After a while, though, the homeschool kids started saying that they didn't like the evening classes because the kids are too loud and don't do what they are told.  The instructor prefers the morning classes, and the kids get to do more fun stuff because if they start to ramp up their silliness it''s easier to get them back on track.  So, in that case, it seems like we are seeing almost the opposite.  The morning class is also made up of mostly long-term homeschoolers who take it seriously, but, on the flip side, if you are too much of a helicopter you don't tend to sign your kid up for something where they are likely to get punched, so it's likely a specific subset of homeschoolers.  

I know that, years ago, my mom took one of the kids to a re-enactment and the people were complaining about some of the homeschool groups misbehaving, but within a few months we were all at a big outside 'old fashioned day' event and the public school kids were running around shrieking, the homeschool kids meandered about looking at the demos and exhibits and asked some questions, and the Mennonite children followed their adult leader in a line, stopping at each exhibit until the leader would say 'Come, children', when the line would proceed to the next exhibit.  So, even years ago it seemed to be specific as to which group of homeschoolers you were interacting with. 

Our co-op seems to be seeing some very flaky parents and some parents with unrealistic expectations for what we can provide, but I don't know if it's particularly more than in the past.  I do wonder if the pandemic made homeschooling more acceptable to some people, so that parents who would have complained about school now pull their kids out to homeschool, but the problem that their student was having was behavioral, not a mean teacher, and now the misbehavior is seen as a 'homeschool' thing.  

[TravelingChris]

On 9/24/2022 at 12:06 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would think that with the addition of a large animal, that it’s even more imperative that students listen for both their own safety and that of the animal. 

Yes, exactly.  I was thinking it was something like an art class.  But with the dangers of horses, disobeying and trying to do your own thing is simply unacceptible/

[Ottakee]

3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, exactly.  I was thinking it was something like an art class.  But with the dangers of horses, disobeying and trying to do your own thing is simply unacceptible/

That is a big risk.   Listening right away can be a safety issues.  You can ask later the why but in the moment, the instructor needs to be listened to.   

[Farrar]

I don't actually think it's necessary for teenagers to have to listen immediately in all situations in order to be safe. In this case, it's obviously true. But if you were part of a small co-op where things were always done loosely and the structure wasn't hierarchical, then I don't think walking into an art classroom and not immediately listening to the teacher is actually unsafe for teens. I think that's stretching it a bit.

In my experience, school kids are often good at lining up, at knowing what the heck a quiet coyote is, at knowing how to take one and pass it on, at raising their hands if they're cued that this is the only way to speak, at thinking to ask before walking out of the lesson to use the bathroom, at knowing how to pretend to listen, at knowing that no one will believe you're listening if you're also doing something else... and so on and so forth. Homeschoolers aren't. On the other hand, in my experience, homeschoolers often ask deeper questions, want to know things, actually care about the material, do the extra reading because they're curious, etc. and school kids are less good at those skills. But if you're in a situation where only the first set of skills matters - like, horseback riding where it's safety and there aren't really deep questions to ask for beginner lessons - then homeschoolers really could look like hooligans.

[Melissa Louise]

Otoh, I LOVE my h/s students because they are not burnt out (as compared with my schooled students).

I wonder if having been a homeschooler myself for 16 yrs gave me an appreciation for these students and the freshness they bring.