Do you love meat? Or not?

[heartlikealion]

@Spy Car ugh nevermind, I guess #2 answers that. https://ovenvia.com/is-celery-salt-as-bad-as-nitrates/#Is_celery_salt_as_bad_as_nitrates

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

They say "except those naturally occurring like in celery" so I'm confused... aren't the "naturally occurring" ones ok? 

No. They are chemically identical.

The labeling is intended purely to deceive customers. There is no difference and the so-called "natural" versions often have more nitrates.

I don't understand why this is a legal way to label foods.

Bill

 

[heartlikealion]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

No. They are chemically identical.

The labeling is intended purely to deceive customers. There is no difference and the so-called "natural" versions often have more nitrates.

I don't understand why this is a legal way to label foods.

Bill

 

Yup they fooled me 

[SKL]

No, I don't really like meat.  I can eat small amounts of chicken or ground beef, but I'm just as happy skipping them.  As far as protein sources, I enjoy beans much more.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

Yup they fooled me 

You are not alone.

I fell for this deception as well.

Bill

[skimomma]

25 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think we have the same mother, lol. We had the same rule about drinking milk (which was often "stretched" with powdered milk) with dinner (gag), and I vividly remember the "bubblegum" meat we were forced to eat, that no mater how much you chewed it remained a single unswallowable blob. I used to pretend to wipe my mouth with a napkin, spit the wad of meat-gum into the napkin, and then discreetly drop it on the floor for the dog. Veg were overcooked to the point of mush and "salad" was iceberg lettuce with green bell pepper, cucumber, and tomato, slathered with goopy bottled "French dressing." No spices except salt and pepper. She tried to get fancy once and made a "salad" she saw in a magazine which was basically shredded cabbage and grated carrots with a mayonnaise-based coleslaw dressing mixed with lime jello and poured in a pan until set. I called it "Dumpster Wiggle."

ETA: Once when I was visiting family in the area as an adult, my mother invited me and my then-boyfriend over for dinner and said she was making "chicken curry." This was her version of "chicken curry": dump a bag of frozen broccoli in a roasting pan, put chicken breasts on top, then mix mayonnaise with about a teaspoon of curry powder and spread that over the chicken. Bake until the broccoli is grayish-green goo and the chicken is stringy and dry. 

Oh, thank goodness someone knows what I am walking about!  Bubblegum meat is exactly it!  I have had similar experiences with cheap bubblegum as an adult.  It gets tougher and bigger and I start to FREAK OUT because it brings me back to sitting in a dark kitchen staring down the plate of meat that I cannot bring myself to finish because the first bite took 30 minutes to chew and swallow.  We did not have a dog, sadly, and napkins were somehow not a thing in my family.

We also had many things made into jello, including cabbage and MAYO!  Who does that?!?!?  Why?!?!?

At least your "curry" was cooked in the oven.  Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING we ate was nuked into goo or leather.  The invention of the microwave nearly killed me.  I do not have one now because I just can't.

At 14 I got an after school job.  I wanted one anyway but I made sure to get one that conflicted with dinner.  My life was so much easier after that.  Most weeknights, I'd make myself a peanut butter sandwich after work and call it good.  I tried to make every weekend plan to be gone at dinner.  Luckily there was a rule in my family that nothing could be microwaved more than once so if you missed dinner, you were on your own.  Thank goodness.

[skimomma]

14 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

You are not alone.

I fell for this deception as well.

Bill

Wait, does this mean celery salt in general should be avoided?  Like in coleslaw or whatever?

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Yeah, this was most common in steak, pot roast, and pork chops.  My jaw would get tired, the flavor dissipated, and it somehow expanded in size.

Agreeing with Bill, these dishes were clearly not properly prepared. Steak, correctly cooked should be both flavorful and tender.

[GoVanGogh]

I grew up in the heartland, on basic meat and potatoes and overcooked vegetables. The only salads I remember eating as a child were either slathered in blue cheese dressing (classic wedge) or dripping in hot bacon dressing (wilted lettuce). I have strong childhood memories of helping butcher chickens, castrate pigs, etc. We had a meat packing plant in my hometown and that was our town’s main employer. My grandpa worked there when I was a little. Meat was just a way of life  

As a young adult, I was a vegetarian for a number of years though still ate tons of cheese and eggs. Then I got pregnant and craved meat for the first time in my life. Like. Really craved meat. Meatballs for breakfast sort of cravings. I was also very anemic my entire pregnancy. I didn’t go back to a vegetarian diet after my pregnancy. About ten years ago, DH went about 80/20 raw vegan and I decided to join him. I felt amazing for the first time in my life. The stomach issues I have had my entire life went away. Alas. We went back to eating a lot of meat. It is my fall back, to cook the meat and potato way, because that is how I was raised and learned to cook. I have never really liked meat, except for a few specific things (bbq, rare steak and the pregnancy cravings). 

I have young onset Parkinson’s now and it has affected all aspects of my diet and thoughts on nutrition. I lived on toast and plain white rice for a full year because all textures, smells and tastes bothered me. Even now, the only things I really like the taste of is lemon. I also have horrible apathy and that has extended to food. About 18 months ago, I returned to a vegetarian diet, eating mostly raw vegan, plant based, locally grown, in season. Aside from the Parkinson’s, I feel really good. I have multiple auto immune disorders and have lots of blood work done twice a year; my labs have improved so much over the past year and I have been able to go off prescription pain meds. I don’t think, at this point, I will ever return to eating meat again. The idea of faux meat is equally unappealing. I think - for me and for many people - the further away from meat you get, the more off putting it is. Your taste buds change. Your thoughts about meat consumption change. I gave up meat for my own health, but I am now more aware of the welfare of animals and the environment. It is all interconnected. My neurologist, rheumatologist and dietician have all told me that meat and dairy are the main source of disease in America right now. None of them adviced or encouraged me to give up meat and dairy, I did that on my own. But they have all expressed how pleased they are with the improvements in my health and asked what I had changed. My rheumatologist told me at my last appointment that she wished all of her patients would go plant based because of how inflammatory meat and dairy are for patients with rheumatoid issues.  But I know - from growing up in and around meat industry - it is a hard change… 

[heartlikealion]

9 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

I grew up in the heartland, on basic meat and potatoes and overcooked vegetables. The only salads I remember eating as a child were either slathered in blue cheese dressing (classic wedge) or dripping in hot bacon dressing (wilted lettuce). I have strong childhood memories of helping butcher chickens, castrate pigs, etc. We had a meat packing plant in my hometown and that was our town’s main employer. My grandpa worked there when I was a little. Meat was just a way of life  

As a young adult, I was a vegetarian for a number of years though still ate tons of cheese and eggs. Then I got pregnant and craved meat for the first time in my life. Like. Really craved meat. Meatballs for breakfast sort of cravings. I was also very anemic my entire pregnancy. I didn’t go back to a vegetarian diet after my pregnancy. About ten years ago, DH went about 80/20 raw vegan and I decided to join him. I felt amazing for the first time in my life. The stomach issues I have had my entire life went away. Alas. We went back to eating a lot of meat. It is my fall back, to cook the meat and potato way, because that is how I was raised and learned to cook. I have never really liked meat, except for a few specific things (bbq, rare steak and the pregnancy cravings). 

I have young onset Parkinson’s now and it has affected all aspects of my diet and thoughts on nutrition. I lived on toast and plain white rice for a full year because all textures, smells and tastes bothered me. Even now, the only things I really like the taste of is lemon. I also have horrible apathy and that has extended to food. About 18 months ago, I returned to a vegetarian diet, eating mostly raw vegan, plant based, locally grown, in season. Aside from the Parkinson’s, I feel really good. I have multiple auto immune disorders and have lots of blood work done twice a year; my labs have improved so much over the past year and I have been able to go off prescription pain meds. I don’t think, at this point, I will ever return to eating meat again. The idea of faux meat is equally unappealing. I think - for me and for many people - the further away from meat you get, the more off putting it is. Your taste buds change. Your thoughts about meat consumption change. I gave up meat for my own health, but I am now more aware of the welfare of animals and the environment. It is all interconnected. My neurologist, rheumatologist and dietician have all told me that meat and dairy are the main source of disease in America right now. None of them adviced or encouraged me to give up meat and dairy, I did that on my own. But they have all expressed how pleased they are with the improvements in my health and asked what I had changed. My rheumatologist told me at my last appointment that she wished all of her patients would go plant based because of how inflammatory meat and dairy are for patients with rheumatoid issues.  But I know - from growing up in and around meat industry - it is a hard change… 

Oh wow, sorry to hear about your Parkinson's but so happy you have made lifestyle choices that have improved your health. Way to go. 

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Ugh.  Me too.  Until I was 14, I was required to drink a glass of milk with dinner.  Sometimes powdered.  I always hated milk and I always had stomach problems.  Turns out I am extremely lactose intolerant.  I would have to pinch my nose to get it down.  It was not a choice.  We would also be required to eat some minimum amount of each thing served....hence the meat.  My parents grew up very poor and just could not fathom being "picky."  Ironically, I am not picky at all.  I will eat almost anything non-meat.  I was an adult before I learned that veggies taste great when not microwaved into goo, salads can be more than sad iceberg lettuce, and that there was a whole world of spices outside of salt and pepper.

My parenting did still emphasize not wasting food but I also never required anyone to eat anything they did not like.

That's awful about the milk.

I am a super picky eater and grew up with eating disorders.  

I never required my kids to eat foods they didn't like.  They are all very adventurous eaters now as adults and eat much healthier than DH and I do.  

[heartlikealion]

19 minutes ago, skimomma said:

Wait, does this mean celery salt in general should be avoided?  Like in coleslaw or whatever?

I think so. Maybe it will still taste good when you omit it. 

[Spy Car]

23 minutes ago, skimomma said:

Wait, does this mean celery salt in general should be avoided?  Like in coleslaw or whatever?

That is a really great question and I'm sorry not to have a definitive answer for you.

I "believe" (and may be totally wrong here) that food processors mix the celery with other agents (such as lactic acid) to unleash bacteria which make the conversion into a much higher concentration of nitrates.

I suspect celery salt inherently has some, but far less than if "naturally processed."

I may be dead wrong.

Perhaps we have a better informed member?

Bill

Edited June 10, 2022 by Spy Car

[Lady Florida.]

I don't crave or love meat but I'm a dedicated omnivore. I confess I don't understand vegetarian foods that try to copy the taste of meat. I thought most vegetarians don't like meat. I only actually know two vegetarians close enough to discuss it with them. Neither one likes the taste of meat. They get their protein from things like beans and tofu. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I like all properly cooked food in moderation.  Being already gluten free for medical reasons and low-carb also for medical reasons, I don't want to cut out any more food groups unless I absolutely have to.  Ironically my blood sugars do much worse on non-meat protein sources even though I like them. 

[skimomma]

15 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I don't crave or love meat but I'm a dedicated omnivore. I confess I don't understand vegetarian foods that try to copy the taste of meat I thought most vegetarians don't like meat. I only actually know two vegetarians close enough to discuss it with them. Neither one likes the taste of meat. They get their protein from things like beans and tofu. 

Lots of people are vegetarian for health reasons so I can see why the mimics are attractive.  They can be a good stepping stone to from here to there.  

[Selkie]

Here's an article that explains why it is safe to eat vegetables that contain nitrates and nitrites, but not safe to eat processed meat.

It has to do with the way that nitrites and nitrates combine with substances in the meat and are then converted into N-nitroso compounds, which cause cancer.

https://theconversation.com/why-nitrates-and-nitrites-in-processed-meats-are-harmful-but-those-in-vegetables-arent-170974

[GoVanGogh]

25 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Oh wow, sorry to hear about your Parkinson's but so happy you have made lifestyle choices that have improved your health. Way to go. 

Thank you. It was a hard, but much needed, shift. I am glad I had the support and ability to make the change. 

[Lillyfee]

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

Do people in Germany use iron cookware much? I ask because I had a friend who said that once she started cooking most things in iron skillets, her anemia disappeared. Just made me curious.

I am not sure but my parents do mainly use iron skillets.

It's an interesting point. 

[Corraleno]

I never liked the taste of meat (except for bacon), and I gradually became vegetarian as an adult. I stopped eating pigs first, after seeing a horrific documentary on British TV more than 20 years ago, then eventually I stopped eating cows, then chicken & turkey, and then fish. But until a year or so ago, I consumed a LOT of dairy and eggs. After getting the blood test results from my annual physical last year, plus seeing what terrible physical shape most of my relatives are in, I decided to go completely whole food plant based. Since making that change I lost 40 lbs and dramatically improved my blood pressure, blood sugar, and cholesterol.

All the men in my family, by blood or marriage, ate diets that were super high in meat/eggs/dairy and very low in fruit & veg — and most were really active, too, often with physically demanding jobs, so their health issues were definitely not from being sedentary. They ate a very stereotypical "American Man" diet: breakfast would be eggs and bacon or sausage; lunch would be a big meat & cheese sandwich with a bag of chips, or a bacon cheeseburger with fries; and dinner was usually a big hunk of meat with some kind of potatoes (often with sour cream or gravy) and a small helping of carrots or string beans, or maybe several slices of sausage & pepperoni pizza or a no-beans Texas chili with cheese and a baked potato, etc. So not only was the diet super high in animal products, it was also extremely low in fiber.

The results: both brothers diagnosed with colon cancer in their 40s (one died at 49, one survived but is missing half his colon and now has a very restricted diet); stepfather died of a heart attack in his late 60s; BIL had his first heart attack in his 50s, second in his 60s, now on a boatload of drugs and a severely restricted diet; father is obese, diabetic, a cancer survivor, confined to a wheelchair, and has been on a long list of medications since he was younger than I am now. My mother and stepmother ate a bit less meat and more fruit & veg than the men in the family, but still a typical SAD diet, and both have had cancer and severe heart disease and were on meds since they were younger than me; my mother is still alive but had a stroke and has dementia. FIL and MIL ate a typical SAD diet high in animal products and refined carbs, plus a lot of alcohol, and both had strokes and severe heart disease in their 60s; FIL was fully paralyzed by his stroke and spent years in a nursing home with a tube in his stomach, MIL survived her stroke partially paralyzed but has also had cancer and a ton of other health issues and is currently bed-bound, catheterized, and mostly sedated.

The irony is that my parents, stepparents, and in-laws all used to proclaim some variation of "I'd rather eat what I want and enjoy myself and drop dead at 70 than live to 90 being miserable eating rabbit food." The only one who actually dropped dead before 70 was my stepfather, the rest of them lingered for many many years in terrible health with tons of medical problems and low quality of life. And the biggest irony, IMO, is that really delicious, flavorful, plant-based meals taste way better than the factory-farmed meat, refined carbs, and processed crap they thought was the only food worth eating.

 

[Arcadia]

I love seafood. The only meat I crave is pork jerky Chinese style. I do need meat though else my hemoglobin and protein levels would be low for my blood work.

[ktgrok]

 

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Yes. Original Sunshine Burgers, for example, only contain brown rice, ground raw sunflower seeds, carrots, chives, and salt. They don't taste like meat but they're not supposed to. 🙂 

I love those, haven't seen them in a while. I ate a lot of those once upon a time. 

34 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I don't crave or love meat but I'm a dedicated omnivore. I confess I don't understand vegetarian foods that try to copy the taste of meat I thought most vegetarians don't like meat. I only actually know two vegetarians close enough to discuss it with them. Neither one likes the taste of meat. They get their protein from things like beans and tofu. 

When I was a vegetarian I was the market for them, lol. As I said, I love the taste of meat. But I was vegetarian for animal welfare reasons. So, meat substitutes made sense. Some were yummy (Chik'n Patties), some were not (fake bacon is an abomination). Sophomore year of college I lived on garden burgers with Heinz 57 sauce and coco puffs. 

Which brings up how vegetarian vs omnivore is sort of a false dichotomy when it comes to health. I really don't think a diet of Morngingstar Chik'n patties and cocopuff cereal with rice milk and french fries dipped in mayo is likely to lead to better health than a diet of salads with diced chicken on top or a lean steak with asparagus and roasted carrots.

Less processed, with lots of fruit and veggies of all colors, is going to be healthier than a vegetarian diet made up of mostly processed foods especially if high in sugar and low in fiber. But, last I checked, that's not a study that has been done, you know?

[KungFuPanda]

5 hours ago, Selkie said:

I heard an interesting comment about this from Dr. Alan Desmond, a gastroenterologist from Ireland. He said that there are no factory farms or feedlots in Ireland, and essentially all the animals are pasture-raised and grass fed. Yet the Irish are still plagued with the same high rates of animal protein-related disease as Americans who eat factory farmed meat. His conclusion was that grass fed meat is no different than factory farmed meat when it comes to negative effects on human health.

That makes sense since we're feeding the cows oats and corn, which are also grasses. (Feel free to correct any part of that sentence that is wrong.  It might be wrong ALL over the place.  I'm not googling it right now.)

I eat meat because I like meat.  I like ALL the foods.  I'm used to cooking with meat, so it would be a hard sell to go vegetarian at my house.  I have moved to gradually having meat more as an ingredient than serving a cut of meat as the centerpiece of the meal.  Even when I make a pot of beans, I generally toss in a bit of salt pork for flavor, so we're rarely completely vegetarian around here.

I will occasionally crave steak but that's a couple times a year and I eat it more than I absolutely crave it.  I find I want meat less and less as I age and my metabolism slows.  I live with boys who require it to feel satisfied; my husband moreso than my son.  I think when my iron is truly low, I crave smoked oysters.  That comes up more often than a strong steak craving, but it's still more of a quarterly event.

I will take issue with the notion that hot dogs are mostly filler.  Not all hot dogs are created equally and some of them are downright delicious.  In fact, sausage is a great way to reduce meat consumption.  Sausages (not necessarily the hot dog variety) can have tons of flavor.  A bit of hot Italian sausage in a red sauce makes the meal "not vegetarian" and perfectly acceptable to my boys.  

Edited June 10, 2022 by KungFuPanda

[ktgrok]

I will also point out, as someone that would LOVE to be vegetarian, despite my love of meat, but who gains weight and has blood sugar/insulin issues on a vegetarian diet, that obesity is on its own a HUGE cancer risk factor. Basically, excess body fat is a carcinogen. (recently bariatric surgery was found to decrease cancer death by over 40%!)

So the health aspects have to be taken into account as part of a whole. 
I think someone that has always had a healthy metabolism, and who does not find legumes and grains (even whole grains) to be a trigger for insulin spikes and overeating, would be well served by being vegetarian- and so would the planet. But if that type of diet causes obesity for an individual, that's likely not a net gain. 

[ktgrok]

I do agree that PORTION sizes of meat have gotten insane. I generally prefer to make a "hash" as I call it, with veggies, maybe some diced potato, and the meat. 

[Lillyfee]

My husband thought it was so weird that I think cooked potatoes with some salt and butter is a full dinner or just rice with salad.

When I grew up that was our go to dinner. Just cooked potatoes, sometimes with quark cheese with fresh herbs.

He always said "it's missing the meat but it was  seriously just in his head. My dad and brother do lots of sport and work hard and it's enough for them.

Meat was always a Sunday thing when I grew up while my husband grew up with meat three times a day. 

He got used to less meat and does not feel the need anymore to get it every day.

[Corraleno]

RE: plant-based meat substitutes

Most vegetarians and vegans I know avoid meat for ethical, environmental, or health reasons, not because they don't like the taste. For people who are trying to transition to a plant-based diet for those reasons, it can be really helpful to have familiar-tasting substitutes for when they miss having a burger or a chicken sandwich or whatever. Many people especially struggle with giving up cheese, so plant-based cheese substitutes can be helpful there, and they are becoming more realistic (Violife is pretty good, IMO). Many vegans also live with people who eat meat and dairy, so it can be helpful to have plant-based substitutes available, either so they can eat something similar to the rest of the family or so they can serve one meal that everyone can eat. Are plant-based meat and cheese substitutes as healthy as legumes and nuts? Of course not. But there are plenty of plant-based eaters who are more about animal welfare and environmental issues than personal health, and even for those who focus on health, having an occasional plant-based burger or vegan mac & cheese as a treat is not going to wreck their diet.

I don't buy or cook meat even when my kids are here, and although they will eat beans and lentils neither of them like tofu, so I will occasionally buy Gardein's vegan chik'n tenders to add to a noodle bowl for DD or DS, while mine has crispy tofu. Also, DS is an athlete who needs a LOT of protein (6'7" 220 lbs, trains at least 20 hrs/wk) and given the history of heart disease and colon cancer in my family, the idea of him eating huge amounts of meat every day makes me nervous, even aside from ethical and environmental issues.  So he does eat plant-based burgers and chicken at home, in addition to getting protein from beans, nuts, seeds, whole grains, and pea-based protein powder. If he's eating out with friends, it's helpful if there is a plant-based burger option, because he is a "super taster" with texture issues and has trouble with a lot of vegetables that literally make him gag, so it's not like he can just order a salad. He does occasionally eat meat (mostly chicken) and cheese when he's eating out, but he only keeps plant-based meat and dairy in his apartment. 

[Selkie]

20 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I will also point out, as someone that would LOVE to be vegetarian, despite my love of meat, but who gains weight and has blood sugar/insulin issues on a vegetarian diet, that obesity is on its own a HUGE cancer risk factor. Basically, excess body fat is a carcinogen. (recently bariatric surgery was found to decrease cancer death by over 40%!)

So the health aspects have to be taken into account as part of a whole. 
I think someone that has always had a healthy metabolism, and who does not find legumes and grains (even whole grains) to be a trigger for insulin spikes and overeating, would be well served by being vegetarian- and so would the planet. But if that type of diet causes obesity for an individual, that's likely not a net gain. 

Generally speaking, though, I think it is important to point out that studies show meat eaters have much higher rates of obesity (and obesity-related health problems) than vegetarians or vegans. 

Here is one such study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697260/

Meat consumption is associated with obesity and central obesity among US adults

[heartlikealion]

29 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

My husband thought it was so weird that I think cooked potatoes with some salt and butter is a full dinner or just rice with salad.

When I grew up that was our go to dinner. Just cooked potatoes, sometimes with quark cheese with fresh herbs.

He always said "it's missing the meat but it was  seriously just in his head. My dad and brother do lots of sport and work hard and it's enough for them.

Meat was always a Sunday thing when I grew up while my husband grew up with meat three times a day. 

He got used to less meat and does not feel the need anymore to get it every day.

Haha this sounds like convos I’ve had. Like is Mac & cheese a meal or a side? I don’t think it’s ideal as a meal but as a kid I considered it a meal. Like Mom probably didn’t serve it that way but my sisters would make it and we’d eat just that sometimes. Snack? Meal? I don’t know. 

My dad will eat mashed potatoes as the main course and I’ll think ok where’s the rest of the meal? Not that it has to have meat, necessarily. But then think how common it is for baked potatoes to be a main course ;and other times a side along with a steak). It’s amusing 

[stripe]

If I don’t eat meat, I start to feel unwell. I eat very little meat, and I spent years as a vegetarian. I was recently shamed by a nutritionist who was extremely pushy about being vegan and refused to listen to why I don’t want to just subsist on pasta as a protein, and why I cannot serve beans and other favorites of vegans for 2-3 meals a day due to a family member’s food allergies. I find if I don’t eat a little meat, I end up eating a lot of sweets.

[ktgrok]

31 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Generally speaking, though, I think it is important to point out that studies show meat eaters have much higher rates of obesity (and obesity-related health problems) than vegetarians or vegans. 

Here is one such study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697260/

Meat consumption is associated with obesity and central obesity among US adults

interesting. I wonder if vegetarians are more health conscious in general? Vs fast food eating meat eaters? The obese people in my life all find that eating meat helps them reduce cravings/overeating. But, they still have to be careful what they eat. 

[Selkie]

6 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

interesting. I wonder if vegetarians are more health conscious in general? Vs fast food eating meat eaters? The obese people in my life all find that eating meat helps them reduce cravings/overeating. But, they still have to be careful what they eat. 

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post, but your mention of bariatric surgery reminded me of Dr. Garth Davis, a bariatric surgeon in Houston. He recommends all his patients adopt a plant based diet, and says those who do have better outcomes after surgery. Some of them have been able to avoid surgery altogether by changing to plant based eating.

He wrote a book entitled Proteinaholic: How Our Obsession with Meat Is Killing Us and What We Can Do About It. It is a very interesting read.

https://smile.amazon.com/Proteinaholic-Obsession-Meat-Killing-About/dp/0062279319/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3IWV33YPXJMIM&keywords=garth+davis&qid=1654890834&sprefix=garth+davis%2Caps%2C148&sr=8-1

[Emba]

I love meat. Granted I grew up in a beef producing area of the country. I’m more willing than a lot of people I know to eat vegetarian, but I still really enjoy meat. And there was a time in my life that I ate vegetarian more often and didn’t have access to much red meat, and I would start to crave it, I think for iron because I tend toward anemia, like my mom.

[KungFuPanda]

6 hours ago, Idalou said:

No. I went inside a huge chicken farm and seeing the mass number of sad, psychotic chickens cured me of wanting that. I visited a large veal barn and regretted every bite of meat I've swallowed. I am not to the point of rejecting fish, but feel that it is close.

That wouldn't motivate me.  I grew up on a lot of venison and fresh water fish. I also live in an area where the deer are greatly over-populated. If I had to raise my own animal proteins, I'd probably lean into chickens and goats.  Rabbits would be easy, but I really don't care for it.  As a child, my favorite meal was squirrel gravy with dumplings. 😆 It's been so long since I've had that that I'm not quite sure I could go back to it. 

[heartlikealion]

43 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

interesting. I wonder if vegetarians are more health conscious in general? Vs fast food eating meat eaters? The obese people in my life all find that eating meat helps them reduce cravings/overeating. But, they still have to be careful what they eat. 

I don’t know if there’s an easy way to find this info but I do know xh was a “junk food” vegan then vegetarian before we met. His words. Frozen pizzas and such. I had a girlfriend in college that was vegetarian and I know she ate French fries so not necessarily super healthy choices with all vegetarians. Of course these were college days so that in itself I’m sure affected food choices. 

[athena1277]

Except for 6yo dd, my crew would love it if for dinner I would serve meat with a side of meat.  They are carnivores.  If I tried to serve a meal without meat, there would be a rebellion.

[Pam in CT]

re meat substitutes

3 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

I don't crave or love meat but I'm a dedicated omnivore. I confess I don't understand vegetarian foods that try to copy the taste of meat. I thought most vegetarians don't like meat. I only actually know two vegetarians close enough to discuss it with them. Neither one likes the taste of meat. They get their protein from things like beans and tofu. 

I have some relatives who are vegetarian for health and/or ethical reasons, but DO like and miss the taste of meat... and so they use them.

My 19 yo daughter hasn't tasted meat since she was 7 and definitely doesn't miss it... but my husband wants to "dial back" (not eliminate meat); he doesn't much like tofu; and I want to only-cook-one-meal. So I do grilled Impossible Burgers on occasion, or various versions of rice-and-sausage meals using veg sausage.  I don't consider these to be super-healthy meals but they're quick and easy and fine.

We also eat a lot of legumes and I have a roster of build-your-own meals where I throw out a lot of bowls of stuff, including some shredded/cubed chicken or ground taco meat, and some people go for it and others, including increasingly me, don't.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Pam in CT
typo

[rebcoola]

I love love love meat!! All meat Bison, lamb, bacon,venison, rabbit, and seafood are my favorites. Chicken, turkey and pork are not nearly as good but a lot cheaper.  I would take a good steak over cake any day.  While I do try to buy ethically raised meat touring slaughterhouses and such has never put me off meat.  I don't really like dairy though.

Edited June 10, 2022 by rebcoola

[Selkie]

I heard the other day that health insurance companies have been studying plant based eating and have found that it drastically reduces health care costs. It will be interesting to see where they go with that. From my point of view, it would be great to pay less for health insurance because of my lifestyle choices.

[wintermom]

5 hours ago, Selkie said:

Interesting that you mention smoking, because scientists and doctors involved with these studies refer to animal protein as the new cigarettes.

I've seen posters that sitting at a desk for long hours is the new cigarettes. I guess it all depends on where you are looking for research - chances are you'll find something that's been done there. 

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I do agree that PORTION sizes of meat have gotten insane. I generally prefer to make a "hash" as I call it, with veggies, maybe some diced potato, and the meat. 

Portion size is a huge factor, and something that I think is really misunderstood about the "Mediterranean diet." My father and (late) stepmother would say that they ate a Mediterranean diet, because they mostly replaced potatoes with pasta, used a lot of olive oil, and started drinking red wine with dinner. But they still ate a lot of meat, eggs, and dairy. Pasta carbonara made with bacon, eggs, and cheese, or a huge serving of lasagna made with sausage and ground beef and lots of cheese, served with garlic bread and maybe a little iceberg salad, is really not what the Mediterranean diet is about.

In the mid-70s, I spent a month in a little fishing village on the coast of Crete. Breakfast was seasonal fruit, fresh bread with local honey, and glasses of tea. Lunch was generally fava beans and potatoes cooked with onions, tomatoes, fresh herbs, and olive oil, or sometimes home-made pasta with beans, tomatoes, and zucchini. Dinner was usually fish that had just been pulled out of the ocean a few hours earlier, or occasionally a small serving of wild rabbit or free ranging chicken, served with vegetables and a Greek salad. We hiked and swam in the sea nearly every day, and after dinner people sat around sipping retsina or ouzo and munching on olives, sliced cucumbers, cubed feta, and roasted salted chickpeas. Everyone in the village seemed fit and healthy; even the oldest men still went out in their boats every day and the old women still worked in the vegetable gardens and helped with wheat and olive harvests, etc.

That's what a true "Mediterranean diet" looks like, it's not just a standard American diet with lots of meat and a little more pasta and olive oil. And when people say that "humans are meant to eat meat," those are really the portion sizes that most people traditionally ate — and those would be small portions of lean, wild caught or free range meat or fish that was high in Omega 3s, not the absurdly large amounts of factory-farmed animal protein that is high in saturated fat and high in inflammatory Omega 6s that most Americans consume daily.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Corraleno

[Pawz4me]

I don’t know anyone who remotely believes a Mediterranean diet means lots of meat or pasta. That’s some high level ignorance. 

[ScoutTN]

8 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

And I believe meatless or a lot less meat is the future as raising meat needs so many resources we won't have forever and it also hurts the environment. There will be just too many people at one point.

 

 

Read Joel Salatin on raising grass fed beef. Done correctly, it sequesters carbon, not the reverse, and is good for the environment. Factory farming, of course, is not. 

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Read Joel Salatin on raising grass fed beef. Done correctly, it sequesters carbon, not the reverse, and is good for the environment. Factory farming, of course, is not. 

and of course you are both right, because the current meat appetites of 8 billion humans cannot be satisfied with grass-fed beef. It's either factory farming or a drastic reduction in meat consumption.

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I don’t know anyone who remotely believes a Mediterranean diet means lots of meat or pasta. That’s some high level ignorance. 

Well I'm originally from NJ, and a lot of people I grew up with think a "Mediterranean diet" is "what Italians eat" — but the way they think people in Italy eat is based on Americanized versions of "Italian food," which includes a lot of meat, cheese, and heavy sauces. 

[Selkie]

21 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I don’t know anyone who remotely believes a Mediterranean diet means lots of meat or pasta. That’s some high level ignorance. 

I know someone from Italy who has said the same thing about Americans and the Mediterranean diet as @Corraleno. She said the American version is so much heavier on meat, olive oil, and wine than the true Mediterranean diet.

[J-rap]

About 10 years ago (probably in pre-menopause) I started craving protein, and I do love chicken.  I don't care much for other meat except the occasional  pepperoni pizza, grilled hotdog/brat, and White Castle hamburger.  My dh and I have been on and off vegetarians for much of our marriage, and I love legumes.  We maybe eat meat though 3 meals/week these days:  Generally two of them are chicken and one is ground turkey. 

[Corraleno]

15 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I know someone from Italy who has said the same thing about Americans and the Mediterranean diet as @Corraleno. She said the American version is so much heavier on meat, olive oil, and wine than the true Mediterranean diet.

I think a lot of that is due to the way US media always seem to reduce even the most complex and nuanced nutritional studies to oversimplified sound bites, usually focusing on one particular food and labeling it either "good" or "bad."  So it's not surprising that what a lot of Americans seem to have taken away from studies on the Mediterranean diet is that olive oil and red wine are "good" foods that have some special power to reduce cholesterol or clean out clogged arteries, so they think that adding olive oil and red wine to their regular diet will somehow "cancel out" the saturated fat from the meat and cheese they eat. 

[KidsHappen]

15 hours ago, Selkie said:

Generally speaking, though, I think it is important to point out that studies show meat eaters have much higher rates of obesity (and obesity-related health problems) than vegetarians or vegans. 

Here is one such study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697260/

Meat consumption is associated with obesity and central obesity among US adults

Sincere question: Do you know why people seem to do so well on protein (keto or paleo) based diets? I know several people who have gone keto and lost between 20-80 lbs and dramatically improved their blood pressure, cholesterol, and lowered their blood sugar. My hubby on the other hand eats mostly carbs and very little meat and he is very overweight. 

[KungFuPanda]

4 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Sincere question: Do you know why people seem to do so well on protein (keto or paleo) based diets? I know several people who have gone keto and lost between 20-80 lbs and dramatically improved their blood pressure, cholesterol, and lowered their blood sugar. My hubby on the other hand eats mostly carbs and very little meat and he is very overweight. 

My guess is that’s more about the sugar and starch they’ve eliminated from their diets and less about putting meat at the center. Losing weight is a huge health benefit. A friend of mine tried keto and her cholesterol shot up. However, she wasn’t overweight to begin with so she never saw that health benefit. If your husband replaced his carbs with plants, and never increased the meat, he’d loose weight too.