Do you love meat? Or not?

[KidsHappen]

5 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

My guess is that’s more about the sugar and starch they’ve eliminated from their diets and less about putting meat at the center. Losing weight is a huge health benefit. A friend of mine tried keto and her cholesterol shot up. However, she wasn’t overweight to begin with so she never saw that health benefit. If your husband replaced his carbs with plants, and never increased the meat, he’d loose weight too. 

I know that about my hubby and he knows it too and lord knows our doctor has told him enough times but I don't think that is ever going to happen. He doesn't like fruits and vegetables and he can't live without carbs.

Many of the people that I know who went keto had problems with carbs and it just seemed easier for them to replace the carbs with fat and meat than to just cut back on the carbs. Since they have done so well on this diet it seems prudent to stay on it especially since many of them don't like fruit and veggies.

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

Sincere question: Do you know why people seem to do so well on protein (keto or paleo) based diets? I know several people who have gone keto and lost between 20-80 lbs and dramatically improved their blood pressure, cholesterol, and lowered their blood sugar. My hubby on the other hand eats mostly carbs and very little meat and he is very overweight. 

Fir me it’s because my body can’t handle much carbohydrates without releasing excess insulin. And insulin is a fat storing hormone. Also protein takes longer to digest and will keep my blood sugars steady for longer. 

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, KidsHappen said:

Sincere question: Do you know why people seem to do so well on protein (keto or paleo) based diets? I know several people who have gone keto and lost between 20-80 lbs and dramatically improved their blood pressure, cholesterol, and lowered their blood sugar. My hubby on the other hand eats mostly carbs and very little meat and he is very overweight. 

Have you seen the recent studies showing that high animal protein/low carb diets shorten lifespan? For example, this one from The Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/article/S2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext

Low carbohydrate dietary patterns favouring animal-derived protein and fat sources, from sources such as lamb, beef, pork, and chicken, were associated with higher mortality, whereas those that favoured plant-derived protein and fat intake, from sources such as vegetables, nuts, peanut butter, and whole-grain breads, were associated with lower mortality, suggesting that the source of food notably modifies the association between carbohydrate intake and mortality.

Our findings suggest a U-shaped relationship between life expectancy and overall carbohydrate intake, in which lifespan is greatest among people with 50–55% carbohydrate intake, a level that might be considered moderate in North America and Europe but low in other regions, such as Asia. These data provide further evidence that animal-based low carbohydrate diets, which are more prevalent in North American and European populations, should be discouraged. Alternatively, if restricting carbohydrate intake is a chosen approach for weight loss or cardiometabolic risk reduction, replacement of carbohydrates with predominantly plant-based fats and proteins could be considered as a long-term approach to promote healthy ageing.

 

[Matryoshka]

I think of meat as an ingredient, and one that doesn't have to be in everything I make.  For example, what I made last night had 0.5 lb beef that I stir-fried, and will last dh and me 2 days, so each serving had about 1/8 lb. meat.  I think most of what I make with meat has about that per serving, or less.  A slab of meat on a plate (like steak) is completely unappetizing to me.  I also make a lot of vegetarian dishes, just because they're good.  I love beans, so I use those for protein a lot.  Beef is the meat I cook with the least - use more chicken, turkey, turkey sausage (like the ones from TJs) or meatballs, and all of those are usually cut up small and mixed with lots of other ingredients.  I almost never make meat-centered meals.  I do like pot roast, but I can't even think of the last time I made it...  Oh, and I do like ham.  Sorry, piggies.  I usually make it with a ton of kale, onions, and white beans, so it's still not a ton of meat per serving.  I never make bacon or burgers.

[HomeAgain]

I thought of this thread last night. Dh made a new recipe from our meal subscription: stuffed poblanos.  It called for a mixture of ground pork and black beans that was inside and underneath, along with a pico and spiced sour cream. We haven't been impressed with the seasoning (most recipes are more on the bland side) so we dissect the dish and make improvements as we're eating it.  The general consensus last night:

1. It had way too much meat. 😄 That's a first from everyone.  The recipe called for about 1/4lb per person. They all agreed it needed more beans, some rice mixed in, and to cut the meat down to about a quarter of what it calls for.

2. The poblanos included were too small.  They want big ones.  And roasted whole on the grill instead of sliced in half and baked.  One slit, removed the seeds, and stuff with the filling.

3. There weren't enough vegetables/variety.  Their pico was tomatoes and onion, and they all agreed some street corn would go well on the side.

 

I don't know if we would have gotten the same reaction 10 years ago, but it's nice to see the shift in our diet be positive for everyone.

[Lillyfee]

16 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Read Joel Salatin on raising grass fed beef. Done correctly, it sequesters carbon, not the reverse, and is good for the environment. Factory farming, of course, is not. 

That's interesting. I did not know that.

 

[DawnM]

No.   I don't like it all the much really.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

Have you seen the recent studies showing that high animal protein/low carb diets shorten lifespan? For example, this one from The Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/article/S2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext

Low carbohydrate dietary patterns favouring animal-derived protein and fat sources, from sources such as lamb, beef, pork, and chicken, were associated with higher mortality, whereas those that favoured plant-derived protein and fat intake, from sources such as vegetables, nuts, peanut butter, and whole-grain breads, were associated with lower mortality, suggesting that the source of food notably modifies the association between carbohydrate intake and mortality.

Our findings suggest a U-shaped relationship between life expectancy and overall carbohydrate intake, in which lifespan is greatest among people with 50–55% carbohydrate intake, a level that might be considered moderate in North America and Europe but low in other regions, such as Asia. These data provide further evidence that animal-based low carbohydrate diets, which are more prevalent in North American and European populations, should be discouraged. Alternatively, if restricting carbohydrate intake is a chosen approach for weight loss or cardiometabolic risk reduction, replacement of carbohydrates with predominantly plant-based fats and proteins could be considered as a long-term approach to promote healthy ageing.

 

From what I can tell, this wasn't looking at obese or mobidly obese people losing weight, it was looking at people's regular diet? In which case sure, someone that can stay healthy and eat normally on a plant based diet likely will be healthier. The issue is that some people with messed up metabolisms cannot eat that way and eat normally. 

Also it does not seem like they controlled for things like exercise, or other health habits. I'd bet that the people eating a low carb, vegetarian diet had other factors contributing to their healthy, just from the people I've met that choose such a lifestyle. 

Also, it does not seem that BMI/Obesity was controlled for. People choosing low carb keto type diets usually already are overweight and have health issues. People choosing plant based diets often did not start out obese and are choosing it for other reasons. 

Without controlling for obesity, exercise, etc I'm not sure what this really tells us?

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, KidsHappen said:

Sincere question: Do you know why people seem to do so well on protein (keto or paleo) based diets? I know several people who have gone keto and lost between 20-80 lbs and dramatically improved their blood pressure, cholesterol, and lowered their blood sugar. My hubby on the other hand eats mostly carbs and very little meat and he is very overweight. 

Keto is very effective at inducing quick weight loss, and weight loss itself will generally lower cholesterol (average is ~2 mg/dL per kg lost), blood pressure, and blood sugar — at least in the short term. But the improvement in A1C generally wanes over time, and avoiding carbs doesn't fix the underlying issue of insulin resistance. In fact, staying on keto long term can further impair insulin resistance to the point that people become even less able to handle carbs, so if they ever want to go off keto they may be in a worse position than when they started. And if they stay on keto for life, then eventually their cholesterol will go up, along with their risk for cardiovascular disease, and other issues associated with a keto diet, such as lack of fiber and low diversity in gut microbiome, can also have a negative impact on long-term health. I've also read that the true benefits of being in ketosis come from cycling in and out of it, as happens with fasting, and that the human body really isn't designed to remain in a permanent state of ketosis, but I haven't personally read any studies on that.

Many of the high-profile proponents of keto or carnivore diets insist that high cholesterol numbers are no big deal, either because they claim their LDL is mostly the "big fluffy" particles, which they claim aren't dangerous, or because their HDL is also extremely high, and they claim that HDL "cancels out" LDL. But nether of those are true. This is from a recent metanalysis:

"Some have suggested that LDL-C or LDL particle concentration elevations are of no concern if the increase is mainly in larger LDL particles. ... LDL is potentially atherogenic regardless of particle size (98, 99). Data supporting this concern come from the Women's Health Study, a randomized, placebo-controlled trial of low-dose aspirin and vitamin E. As part of the study, LDL particle size was assessed. The hazard ratio for incident cardiovascular disease associated with large LDL particles was 1.44 (indicating a 44% increased risk). For small LDL, it was 1.63 (a 63% increased risk). Both were highly statistically significant. In other words, large LDL particles were strongly atherogenic, albeit less so than small LDL (100).

It has also been proposed that the risk elevation associated with increased LDL-C concentrations may be neutralized to the extent that high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) also rises. However, both Mendelian randomization trials and studies using HDL-elevating agents have not shown benefit regarding cardiovascular risk. In the former category are studies that have examined individuals with naturally occurring genetic variants associated with elevated plasma HDL-C concentrations. These genetic traits are not associated with reduced risk of myocardial infarction unless they also reduce LDL-C (101).

Treatment-induced HDL-C elevations were examined in a meta-analysis of 108 studies including 299,310 participants, which found no associated reduction in the risk of coronary heart disease events, coronary disease mortality, or total mortality (102). The LDL-C/HDL-C ratio was not a better predictor of cardiovascular outcomes than LDL-C alone, and the authors recommended using LDL-C, rather than HDL-C or a ratio of the two, as the therapeutic target."

I would add that when people refer to a keto or low carb diet, they may be talking about very different things. One person's idea of low-carb may be an egg white omelette for breakfast with spinach, onions, and tomatoes and a cup of unsweetened green tea; a big salad for lunch; and grilled salmon with steamed broccoli for dinner, while another may have fried eggs and sausage for breakfast with a cup of coffee with heavy cream; a bacon cheeseburger on a low-carb bun for lunch; and a big steak for dinner with a side of broccoli swimming in butter. Obviously those two diets are likely to have very different long term consequences, but they would both count as "low carb."

 

[Selkie]

19 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

From what I can tell, this wasn't looking at obese or mobidly obese people losing weight, it was looking at people's regular diet? In which case sure, someone that can stay healthy and eat normally on a plant based diet likely will be healthier. The issue is that some people with messed up metabolisms cannot eat that way and eat normally. 

Also it does not seem like they controlled for things like exercise, or other health habits. I'd bet that the people eating a low carb, vegetarian diet had other factors contributing to their healthy, just from the people I've met that choose such a lifestyle. 

Also, it does not seem that BMI/Obesity was controlled for. People choosing low carb keto type diets usually already are overweight and have health issues. People choosing plant based diets often did not start out obese and are choosing it for other reasons. 

Without controlling for obesity, exercise, etc I'm not sure what this really tells us?

Re. the bolded, that is a very incorrect assumption about people who eat plant based. I'm in several large online plant based groups with members from around the world. Most people in the groups started eating plant based because they were overweight (many of them morbidly obese) and/or were suffering from health issues like diabetes, cardiovascular problems, autoimmune diseases, etc. Many of them are now fit and in good health, but that is after they switched to a plant based diet.

The study basically shows the longterm dangers of diets high in animal protein - which many other studies of diverse groups of people around the world have already shown.

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

 

I would add that when people refer to a keto or low carb diet, they may be talking about very different things. One person's idea of low-carb may be an egg white omelette for breakfast with spinach, onions, and tomatoes and a cup of unsweetened green tea; a big salad for lunch; and grilled salmon with steamed broccoli for dinner, while another may have fried eggs and sausage for breakfast with a cup of coffee with heavy cream; a bacon cheeseburger on a low-carb bun for lunch; and a big steak for dinner with a side of broccoli swimming in butter. Obviously those two diets are likely to have very different long term consequences, but they would both count as "low carb."

 

THIS!!! The people I know of that are very healthy, living active lives, are eating a ton of plant foods, just lower carb ones, plus meat. Some are dairy free, some eat small amounts of dairy, but not as a main source of calories, more of a condiment. 

People see these folks, then say oh, low carb is healthy, and eat "keto candy" and fat bombs all day long and wonder why they are not seeing the same results. (although I keep the yolk, what you describe is my diet when I'm eating well - more plants than protein, with my protein being grass fed meats, pastured eggs, etc plus some nuts every day. Sprinkle of goat cheese, or some half and half in my coffee, a dollop of whipped cream on my berries. )

And of course, the opposite happens, where people (like me in college) think "vegetarian is healthier" and then consume cheese pizza, mac and cheese, french fries, ice cream, and potato chips and wonder why they are not seeing the benefit. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I consider my diet to be a low carb diet. But I don’t actually aspire to ketosis. I just aspire to normal blood sugars. In order to achieve that I eat usually around 50 to 130 g carbs per day. I have to have protein with every meal or my blood sugars are too high. An apple without protein with it is seen by my body as “candy “. I usually eat meat only at dinner (though I was experimenting with lunch meat for snacks). I do eat a fair amount of goat cheese or nondairy “cheese”. I also eat a lot of eggs, which as a diabetic are pretty much the perfect food. 
 

Since I got my a1c from 6.3 to 5.3 eating this way I am happy with it. And I enjoy my food. I see good food as a gift in this life. 
 

I am obese. This will cause some people to discount everything I said. But I am hopeful that the good a1c will finally translate into weight loss for me. I do participate in the healthy eating thread even though my daily food might not be the ultimate in healthy eating. 

[shawthorne44]

Count me in as another that craves meat, likely due to anemia.   In my case, I absorb iron fine, the problem is the monthly blood loss.   

Dh jokes about me, "She likes her vegetables.   Processed.    By a cow."    

My favorite protein is eggs, though, and we have chickens so I probably eat around 24 eggs a week.   

[73349]

I enjoy some kinds of meat but am happy not to eat it every day. My mom was horrified that I rejected hot dogs (What kid hates hot dogs?? This one.) and only ate the bun. I've always loved rice and potatoes. I like roasted vegetables, which have some fat (olive oil) and salt.

[KungFuPanda]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

From what I can tell, this wasn't looking at obese or mobidly obese people losing weight, it was looking at people's regular diet? In which case sure, someone that can stay healthy and eat normally on a plant based diet likely will be healthier. The issue is that some people with messed up metabolisms cannot eat that way and eat normally. 

Also it does not seem like they controlled for things like exercise, or other health habits. I'd bet that the people eating a low carb, vegetarian diet had other factors contributing to their healthy, just from the people I've met that choose such a lifestyle. 

Also, it does not seem that BMI/Obesity was controlled for. People choosing low carb keto type diets usually already are overweight and have health issues. People choosing plant based diets often did not start out obese and are choosing it for other reasons. 

Without controlling for obesity, exercise, etc I'm not sure what this really tells us?

I know exactly one person who is on a keto diet out of medical necessity. She’s just allergic to everything else. She hates it and doesn’t understand people who choose it. Also, she’s always been naturally tiny. It’s just genetic. Every other person I know who has done keto long or medium-term is in it for the weight-loss-without-exercise aspect. I also know morbidly obese vegetarians. I know people who “can’t loose weight no matter what” but never ever EVER drink water. Most of the people I know spend most of their work day sitting down. That can’t be good for us. People have got to be the most difficult subjects to work with in any kind of study. 

[Corraleno]

59 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

From what I can tell, this wasn't looking at obese or mobidly obese people losing weight, it was looking at people's regular diet? In which case sure, someone that can stay healthy and eat normally on a plant based diet likely will be healthier. The issue is that some people with messed up metabolisms cannot eat that way and eat normally. 

Also it does not seem like they controlled for things like exercise, or other health habits. I'd bet that the people eating a low carb, vegetarian diet had other factors contributing to their healthy, just from the people I've met that choose such a lifestyle. 

Also, it does not seem that BMI/Obesity was controlled for. People choosing low carb keto type diets usually already are overweight and have health issues. People choosing plant based diets often did not start out obese and are choosing it for other reasons. 

Without controlling for obesity, exercise, etc I'm not sure what this really tells us?

 

Actually they did control for exercise, as well as smoking, diabetes, age, race, sex, income, and education. Most of the participants were overweight (average BMI ~28), and there wasn't much difference in BMI between the quintile with the lowest carb / highest animal product intake (BMI 28.5) and the quintile with the lowest carb / highest plant protein & fat intake (BMI 27.5). Exercise levels were the same for both groups. They concluded that the increased risk of mortality with low carb diets is primarily due to the increased consumption of meat and saturated fat, since low carb diets that are higher in plant-based protein and fat actually have lower mortality rates. 

To be clear, though, none of the statistical groups in this study represent an exclusively plant-based diet. There may have been individual participants who were vegan or vegetarian, but their data was aggregated with others and even the diet listed for the quintile with the highest consumption of plant protein and fat also included animal protein and fat, just less of it, plus more fruit, veg, and a lot more fiber compared to the low carb high meat group.

There's plenty of data to show that reducing or eliminating refined carbs is good for everyone, regardless of what else you eat. But research is increasingly showing that replacing healthy, nutritious, high-fiber "carbs" like whole grains and legumes with extra meat and saturated animal fat is not healthy in the long run, even if it may work for short term weight loss.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

 

Actually they did control for exercise, as well as smoking, diabetes, age, race, sex, income, and education. Most of the participants were overweight (average BMI ~28), and there wasn't much difference in BMI between the quintile with the lowest carb / highest animal product intake (BMI 28.5) and the quintile with the lowest carb / highest plant protein & fat intake (BMI 27.5). Exercise levels were the same for both groups. They concluded that the increased risk of mortality with low carb diets is primarily due to the increased consumption of meat and saturated fat, since low carb diets that are higher in plant-based protein and fat actually have lower mortality rates. 

To be clear, though, none of the statistical groups in this study represent an exclusively plant-based diet. There may have been individual participants who were vegan or vegetarian, but their data was aggregated with others and even the diet listed for the quintile with the highest consumption of plant protein and fat also included animal protein and fat, just less of it, plus more fruit, veg, and a lot more fiber compared to the low carb high meat group.

There's plenty of data to show that reducing or eliminating refined carbs is good for everyone, regardless of what else you eat. But research is increasingly showing that replacing healthy, nutritious, high-fiber "carbs" like whole grains and legumes with extra meat and saturated animal fat is not healthy in the long run, even if it may work for short term weight loss.

I saw where they noted they collected that info, in their study (I don't think in the meta analysis part) but didn't see where it was controlled for, when reading the results. I will have to look again - if you know where you saw that part and can give me general direction to look, I'd appreciate it!

And I totally am willing to accept the results, the issue is that I can't eat legumes and such as my main protein source, without being constantly hungry and eating way too many calories. I had to stop making black beans (I don't like rice) because I'd just keep eating and eating and eating...

[Selkie]

25 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

And I totally am willing to accept the results, the issue is that I can't eat legumes and such as my main protein source, without being constantly hungry and eating way too many calories. I had to stop making black beans (I don't like rice) because I'd just keep eating and eating and eating...

This sounds like me (not with legumes, but with other foods) before I started eating a very nutrient dense, whole food plant based diet. I was a food addict (like most Americans) and had food cravings galore. The really interesting thing is that once I committed to eating this way, all of that yuckiness completely disappeared. No more cravings for anything, ever, and I am totally satisfied eating an appropriate amount of healthy food. It was pretty mind-blowing, and not something I ever expected to happen. Since then, I have found out that this is very common when people start eating a plant based diet high in nutrients. It is so freeing.

Dr. Fuhrman refers to that type of insatiable hunger as toxic hunger. https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/58/hungry-true-hunger-versus-toxic-hunger

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Selkie said:

This sounds like me (not with legumes, but with other foods) before I started eating a very nutrient dense, whole food plant based diet. I was a food addict (like most Americans) and had food cravings galore. The really interesting thing is that once I committed to eating this way, all of that yuckiness completely disappeared. No more cravings for anything, ever, and I am totally satisfied eating an appropriate amount of healthy food. It was pretty mind-blowing, and not something I ever expected to happen. Since then, I have found out that this is very common when people start eating a plant based diet high in nutrients. It is so freeing.

Dr. Fuhrman refers to that type of insatiable hunger as toxic hunger. https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/58/hungry-true-hunger-versus-toxic-hunger

For me it happens even when I'm eating a nutrient dense, whole foods diet. If I add in legumes in a significant amount suddenly appetite spikes. I can have a small amount with other foods, if I'm otherwise eating healthy. But greens plus beans = hunger for me, vs greens plus meat. 

[Selkie]

12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

For me it happens even when I'm eating a nutrient dense, whole foods diet. If I add in legumes in a significant amount suddenly appetite spikes. I can have a small amount with other foods, if I'm otherwise eating healthy. But greens plus beans = hunger for me, vs greens plus meat. 

Wow, that's too bad. That's different from the hunger and cravings I was talking about. I've never heard of that happening before.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I want to point out that you can love fruits and vegetables at the same time as loving meat. 

[Corraleno]

52 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I saw where they noted they collected that info, in their study (I don't think in the meta analysis part) but didn't see where it was controlled for, when reading the results. I will have to look again - if you know where you saw that part and can give me general direction to look, I'd appreciate it!

Most of the data is in the Appendix. Model 1 is adjusted for age/sex/race, while Model 2 adjusted for additional factors including exercise, smoking, diabetes, etc. Even when adjusting for all those factors, the lowest carb group still had the highest mortality — and those stats include all low carb participants, so the ones with low carb diets that were relatively high in plant-based protein & fat are likely canceling out some of the actual increased risk, since high plant protein reduces risk. I will put those graphs in a second post.

[Corraleno]

@ktgrok Here are the plots comparing the increase/decrease in mortality risk for high meat low carb diets (top) and high plant protein low carb diets (bottom)

[alysee]

For me, the few times in my life I have tried low carb, I was ravenous and never ended up losing weight. I had lost 10lbs going vegetarian because I upped my fibre. I truly love the way I feel being vegetarian. I wouldn't have believed it 10 years ago but my body loves being a vegetarian. I do believe some bodies respond better to different diets. 

[Spy Car]

Semi-random food idea (no meat).

I like making stuffed (bell) peppers. As my wife enjoys eating a fair share of vegetarian meals, I commonly replace ground beef with brown lentils that are cooked till just on point. I typically mix the lentils (or meat) with rice, caramelized onions, herbs, garlic,some Armenian tomato paste, and (sometimes) feta cheese, which I stuff into pre-roasted (by me) peppers that had the tops removed and are cleaned and de-seeded. I'll pre-roast for 20-30 minutes at 425 in a convection toaster oven, then stuff, and roast for another 20-30 minutes at the same temp. Typically 50min overall.

The other day I decided to make another batch. When I notice I had a lot of Cauliflower. So I broke up 3/4 of a head into pieces and zapped in the food processor until I had the makings of Cauliflower rice. I cooked that in a large skillet stove-top with olive oil until just tender. Added the other ingredients, cooked a bit more, and then stuffed the peppers. Which then were then roasted.

No "rice" in these.

At dinner I queeried my son, "What's different about these?" He wasn't sure. He knew they were different, but not why. He thought they were quite tasty.

I pressed him. Finally he said, "these were made with meat."

I did use feta in this batch, The only non-vegan ingredient and one that could be skipped. Quite good and an easy meal to make. I always make extras as they keep well and are good hot or cold.

A yoghurt dill sauce makes a nice topping.

Bill

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Most of the data is in the Appendix. Model 1 is adjusted for age/sex/race, while Model 2 adjusted for additional factors including exercise, smoking, diabetes, etc. Even when adjusting for all those factors, the lowest carb group still had the highest mortality — and those stats include all low carb participants, so the ones with low carb diets that were relatively high in plant-based protein & fat are likely canceling out some of the actual increased risk, since high plant protein reduces risk. I will put those graphs in a second post.

Thank you! I read the title, but for whatever reason missed the bit at the bottom explaining how they were adjusted! And even read through big blocks of text aobut how the study was done, etc and missed it. That's very helpful. 

I do REALLY wish they adjusted for BMI or body fat or some other measure of obesity! 

Edited June 12, 2022 by ktgrok

[GoVanGogh]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

This sounds like me (not with legumes, but with other foods) before I started eating a very nutrient dense, whole food plant based diet. I was a food addict (like most Americans) and had food cravings galore. The really interesting thing is that once I committed to eating this way, all of that yuckiness completely disappeared. No more cravings for anything, ever, and I am totally satisfied eating an appropriate amount of healthy food. It was pretty mind-blowing, and not something I ever expected to happen. Since then, I have found out that this is very common when people start eating a plant based diet high in nutrients. It is so freeing.

Dr. Fuhrman refers to that type of insatiable hunger as toxic hunger. https://www.drfuhrman.com/blog/58/hungry-true-hunger-versus-toxic-hunger

I totally agree about this. I went whole food, plant based vegetarian about 18 months ago, due to my Parkinson’s diagnosis. About 75-80% of my diet is raw vegan. I actually eat very very little traditional protein, maybe a small portion of beans once a day and a small amount of nuts or nut butter once a day. I have zero cravings for the first time in my life. I love the foods I eat. I have plenty of energy and have regained the strength and muscle tone I had lost leading up to my PD diagnosis. I lift heavy weights 2-3 times a week, run on a treadmill, average four hours of hot yoga a week, grow a large vegetable garden, etc. My own thoughts are that we, as a society, put way too much thought into “getting enough protein.” We should be worried about eating more fiber and more bright colored fruits and vegetables, whether one eats meat, vegetarian or junk food vegan. I have always thought we should eat like our lives depend on it, because our lives do depend on it. Why wait until we get a cancer, diabetes or Parkinson’s diagnosis, have a heart attack or stroke? Yet, there I was myself. Being diagnosed with Parkinson’s at 50 was sobering. Chronic inflammation plays a key role in many diseases and every  book and medical study I have read, every doctor and nutritionist I have worked with, have all said the same thing: Meat, dairy and processed foods are the biggest drivers of chronic inflammation. Yes, some people can eat them and never have an issue. But for people that have chronic inflammation - especially people with autoimmune issues - they are very harmful. 

[GoVanGogh]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Semi-random food idea (no meat).

I like making stuffed (bell) peppers. As my wife enjoys eating a fair share of vegetarian meals, I commonly replace ground beef with brown lentils that are cooked till just on point. I typically mix the lentils (or meat) with rice, caramelized onions, herbs, garlic,some Armenian tomato paste, and (sometimes) feta cheese, which I stuff into pre-roasted (by me) peppers that had the tops removed and are cleaned and de-seeded. I'll pre-roast for 20-30 minutes at 425 in a convection toaster oven, then stuff, and roast for another 20-30 minutes at the same temp. Typically 50min overall.

The other day I decided to make another batch. When I notice I had a lot of Cauliflower. So I broke up 3/4 of a head into pieces and zapped in the food processor until I had the makings of Cauliflower rice. I cooked that in a large skillet stove-top with olive oil until just tender. Added the other ingredients, cooked a bit more, and then stuffed the peppers. Which then were then roasted.

No "rice" in these.

At dinner I queeried my son, "What's different about these?" He wasn't sure. He knew they were different, but not why. He thought they were quite tasty.

I pressed him. Finally he said, "these were made with meat."

I did use feta in this batch, The only non-vegan ingredient and one that could be skipped. Quite good and an easy meal to make. I always make extras as they keep well and are good hot or cold.

A yoghurt dill sauce makes a nice topping.

Bill

 

This sounds really good. Thank you for sharing. 

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, GoVanGogh said:

My own thoughts are that we, as a society, put way too much thought into “getting enough protein.” We should be worried about eating more fiber and more bright colored fruits and vegetables, whether one eats meat, vegetarian or junk food vegan.

Forgive the snip, as I wanted to highlight this portion. I could not be in more emphatic agreement.

We do eat meat in my family, but I think it is eating from a vast array of colorful vegetables and fruit that  keeps us healthy.

Good to know that you found a diet to mitigate the Parkinson's.

Bill

Edited June 12, 2022 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

8 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

This sounds really good. Thank you for sharing. 

After I posted, I got to wondering if others had "invented" the same (or similar) and it was clear from a search, that I am not the first.

They were really good. I will make them again--with intention rather than as a spur of the moment improvisation--as the flavor was at least as good as the Egyptian rice (in fact it was better) and cauliflower "rice" must be more healthful.

Delicious and healthful (and economical) are my prime aims when cooking, and these check all the boxes as far as I'm concerned.

I do load mine mine up with herbs, which maximizes the flavor.

Sometimes I'll add walnuts. 

Bill

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Spy Car

[Katy]

I don't crave meat almost ever, except maybe in pregnancy or if I've been on a low-protein fast mimicking diet for a few days, and then I usually crave salted chicken or grilled fish.  When I was a vegetarian for years what finally made me quit was a strong craving for shellfish combined with a buffet with unlimited lobster & crab legs.  Turned out I had a ridiculous iodine deficiency. If you're eating vegetarian make sure you get an iodine supplement or eat iodized salt or you can really mess with your thyroid.

I actually feel sick (flu like) and my sweat smells like ammonia if I eat too much meat. What's interesting is in my promethease report that i have a genetic problem breaking down protein and I'm in danger of being one of those people who drops dead from ammonia poisoning if I eat too much protein. After Kate Middleton lost all that weight for her wedding I tried that diet she went on that was mostly lean meat & small amounts of vegetables.  I felt SO sick.  And it wasn't just me.  DH & my mom basically had an intervention and said I wasn't acting like myself and this diet was clearly bad for me.

DH on the other hand craves meat like crazy and a few times has experimented with a carnivore diet. He always quits eventually though because he can't justify eating Ribeye every day and hamburger just isn't the same.

[Teaching3bears]

There are more people on this thread who are saying they don’t love meat than crave it.  The hive is predominantly women.  I wonder if men crave meat more.  Would they need it more because they have more muscle mass?   I know many men are vegetarians and healthy, but I am asking if, overall, their bodies can use the fats and proteins in meat more than women and this might cause them to crave it more.

[Laura Corin]

27 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

There are more people on this thread who are saying they don’t love meat than crave it.  The hive is predominantly women.  I wonder if men crave meat more.  Would they need it more because they have more muscle mass?   I know many men are vegetarians and healthy, but I am asking if, overall, their bodies can use the fats and proteins in meat more than women and this might cause them to crave it more.

You would think they would crave it only in proportion to healthy body weight, so my husband would only crave it ten percent more than I. 

I suspect it's cultural in the US and UK - the red-blooded male image. I had a boss - male  -when I lived in Taiwan who didn't feel any meal was satisfying if it didn't contain rice.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Jean in Newcastle]

14 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

There are more people on this thread who are saying they don’t love meat than crave it.  The hive is predominantly women.  I wonder if men crave meat more.  Would they need it more because they have more muscle mass?   I know many men are vegetarians and healthy, but I am asking if, overall, their bodies can use the fats and proteins in meat more than women and this might cause them to crave it more.

I find the word “crave” to be a weird assumption. I mean, I like meat. I have discovered that my body has smoother more stable blood sugars for longer if I have meat once a day, but I don’t crave meat. I might get a “hankering “ for a particular meat dish on occasion but I also might get a “hankering “ for vegetarian sushi. I  don’t consider that a craving but just a desire for a certain taste that I enjoy. (Lately I have had a desire for the taste of pizza and root beer. But there is no way that I can satisfy that taste in a way that is still good for my blood sugars, so I won’t.)

My husband, who is slim but is much more diabetic than I am, also does much better with meat protein. He eats meat twice a day. He also eats a bigger portion of meat at those meals than I do.   He also loves fruit and vegetables and eats those at least twice a day. And while he likes the taste of lentils etc. they push his blood sugars into the stratosphere. He would legitimately balk if I tried to make vegetarian meals because keeping on lower doses of insulin is much healthier for him. 
 

Now some people obviously crave meat or whatever else but I just want to point out that liking the taste of something =|= crave. And knowing that certain foods are healthier for one’s body (at least as measured by a glucometer) =|= crave. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

You would think they would crave it only in proportion to healthy body weight, so my husband would only crave it ten percent more than I. 

I suspect it's cultural in the US and UK - the red-blooded male image. I had a boss - male  -when I lived in Taiwan who didn't feel any meal was satisfying if it didn't contain rice.

I do crave rice. But I grew up in Japan. And I crave the rice I grew up with. Alas, being low carb means that I only give into that craving on occasion and when I do it’s always a portion controlled amount of brown rice. 

[Selkie]

28 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

There are more people on this thread who are saying they don’t love meat than crave it.  The hive is predominantly women.  I wonder if men crave meat more.  Would they need it more because they have more muscle mass?   I know many men are vegetarians and healthy, but I am asking if, overall, their bodies can use the fats and proteins in meat more than women and this might cause them to crave it more.

My dh was a lifelong meat eater until he read How Not to Die and then he became vegan overnight. He says he feels so much better than he ever has in his life, like he is still a teenager. He’s 55. He lifts heavy weights (deadlifts over 300 lbs.), does 20 pull ups a day, averages over 25,000 steps a day, and plays high level pickleball several times a week. His swing speed in golf is now the fastest it has been in 20 years. Fitbit has him in the excellent fitness level category for his age. And he is entirely powered by plants!

Many of the top athletes in the world, both male and female, eat entirely plant based.

 

[GoVanGogh]

1 minute ago, Selkie said:

My dh was a lifelong meat eater until he read How Not to Die and then he became vegan overnight. He says he feels so much better than he ever has in his life, like he is still a teenager. He’s 55. He lifts heavy weights (deadlifts over 300 lbs.), does 20 pull ups a day, averages over 25,000 steps a day, and plays high level pickleball several times a week. His swing speed in golf is now the fastest it has been in 20 years. Fitbit has him in the excellent fitness level category for his age. And he is entirely powered by plants!

Many of the top athletes in the world, both male and female, eat entirely plant based.

 

I was thinking about this very thing this morning at the gym. The people that I know that are the healthiest and strongest are vegan, vegetarian or eat a plant centered Whole Foods diet with meat as a minor component. The people I know that have the highest bmi or have type two diabetes eat a very meat centered diet. 
 

I find it ironic that as soon as people realize you aren’t eating meat, they automatically ask “But what about protein?” I joke that that is the equivalent of asking a homeschool mom about socialization. I would never think about asking people “But what about the fiber?” when they are eating chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes and gravy. (A common menu item here…)  The whole “You need animal protein” is a marketing angle to convince people that they need to buy their product. 

[regentrude]

35 minutes ago, Selkie said:

My dh was a lifelong meat eater until he read How Not to Die and then he became vegan overnight. He says he feels so much better than he ever has in his life, like he is still a teenager. He’s 55. He lifts heavy weights (deadlifts over 300 lbs.), does 20 pull ups a day, averages over 25,000 steps a day, and plays high level pickleball several times a week. His swing speed in golf is now the fastest it has been in 20 years. Fitbit has him in the excellent fitness level category for his age. And he is entirely powered by plants!

Many of the top athletes in the world, both male and female, eat entirely plant based.

 

That is awesome. However,  as much as I am a fan of eatong plants, anecdotes about individuals don't prove anything. My grandmothers and great-grandma lived well into their nineties without significant health problems on the high carb, high meat traditional diet of the region. A diet that no nutritionist, no matter what school, would recommend.  I wouldn't consider it proof of this being advisable. If anything,  it shows that there are many diets under which humans can thrive, and that  orthorexia is a luxury for folks in extremely wealthy countries like the US.

[ktgrok]

41 minutes ago, Selkie said:

My dh was a lifelong meat eater until he read How Not to Die and then he became vegan overnight. He says he feels so much better than he ever has in his life, like he is still a teenager. He’s 55. He lifts heavy weights (deadlifts over 300 lbs.), does 20 pull ups a day, averages over 25,000 steps a day, and plays high level pickleball several times a week. His swing speed in golf is now the fastest it has been in 20 years. Fitbit has him in the excellent fitness level category for his age. And he is entirely powered by plants!

Many of the top athletes in the world, both male and female, eat entirely plant based.

 

Oh, some of the fittest people I know are vegetarian. 

And some of the fittest people I know are paleo. 

I think what they have in common is lots of vegetables and fruit and not a lot of processed junk. I think they have more in common than different, and definitely more in common than they do with a typical american diet. 

[Toocrazy!!]

This is all very fascinating to me. I’ve been really diving into my personal health the last few months, starting with wearing a continuous glucose monitor. By medical standards I was neither diabetic, prediabetic, or unhealthy really.  All my labs were normal. But I was overweight. Lots of fat on me- not muscle making up my extra 40-50 pounds. 
When I started wearing the CGM, everything I normally ate caused me to spike- whether it was an “unhealthy” bagel, or steel cut oats with chia seeds and berries. If it had carbs of any sort, I spiked. I went low carb - no idea how many carbs, I just tried to find things that kept my blood sugar constant. For me, that was meat. I couldn’t eat enough vegetables to fill me up or satisfy me. Beans were a huge spike. Fruit, no way. 
What I also noticed, was that if I could walk or exercise after I ate, the spike was almost always low and short. I couldn’t get away with the 10 minutes they say you can- I had to walk a good 2 miles to see much effect. But that worked for me too. 
So, now, me personally! Not anyone else, I can eat low carb meats and veggies and stay pretty steady, or I can eat high fiber and some carbs and exercise and be almost as steady. I would think almost anyone walking 20,000 steps a day would use up all the glucose their body generates from carbs. But for office lifestyles, sedentary lifestyles, people who are injured and can’t exercise a lot, it’s hard to use those up, and low carb works. And I’ve heard exercising once a day, a big long walk will work. For me, it hasn’t reduced my fasting glucose. If there are still spikes from my other meals, it’s not enough to offset those. 

I’m so early into this, and there’s so many theories out there. And they seem to be making new discoveries every day. I do believe plant products have a great impact on our health, so I’m trying my best not to rely on meat and cheese to be low carb. But I do feel better eating that way, satisfied, happier, fuller, and I’m losing weight. 

It’s a process for sure! 

[Jean in Newcastle]

23 minutes ago, GoVanGogh said:

I was thinking about this very thing this morning at the gym. The people that I know that are the healthiest and strongest are vegan, vegetarian or eat a plant centered Whole Foods diet with meat as a minor component. The people I know that have the highest bmi or have type two diabetes eat a very meat centered diet. 
 

I find it ironic that as soon as people realize you aren’t eating meat, they automatically ask “But what about protein?” I joke that that is the equivalent of asking a homeschool mom about socialization. I would never think about asking people “But what about the fiber?” when they are eating chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes and gravy. (A common menu item here…)  The whole “You need animal protein” is a marketing angle to convince people that they need to buy their product. 

And MY body wasn't able to start making muscles (as confirmed by my physical therapist and personal trainer) until I started to take additional amino acids (which combine to form proteins).  I am getting irritated at the gross generalizations on this thread.  Each of us should thoughtfully eat the diet that best suits our bodies and our needs. 

[Kassia]

7 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

  Each of us should thoughtfully eat the diet that best suits our bodies and our needs. 

Yes, and our choices should be respected.  I have a friend who was on a vegan diet and was having all kinds of health problems.  When she went off the vegan diet for her health some people were absolutely vicious to her about it.  It was really disturbing.  

[Pawz4me]

21 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I am getting irritated at the gross generalizations on this thread.  Each of us should thoughtfully eat the diet that best suits our bodies and our needs. 

I don't really get irritated, but I do quite a lot of mental eye rolling. I'm sure I was totally obnoxious about my own WOE 30+ years ago, when I decided to lose weight and get healthy. Age and experience have taught me that my way needs to be the best for me, and that others will almost always be dealing with somewhat different challenges--people can tolerate foods that I can't, I thrive on foods they don't, I have different medical diagnoses that affect my food choices than someone else does, etc. Now I'm happy to share what works for me, but I'm never gonna be the food police. Don't want that job! And I'll say that joining a large cancer/medical support board after DH was diagnosed and seeing how very many lifelong vegans, vegetarians, marathon runners, triatheletes, etc. develop cancer and chronic illnesses has really made me realize that life is just a crapshoot. I eat the best I can in order to feel my best today. That's the only thing I can control.

[Jean in Newcastle]

40 minutes ago, Toocrazy!! said:

This is all very fascinating to me. I’ve been really diving into my personal health the last few months, starting with wearing a continuous glucose monitor. By medical standards I was neither diabetic, prediabetic, or unhealthy really.  All my labs were normal. But I was overweight. Lots of fat on me- not muscle making up my extra 40-50 pounds. 
When I started wearing the CGM, everything I normally ate caused me to spike- whether it was an “unhealthy” bagel, or steel cut oats with chia seeds and berries. If it had carbs of any sort, I spiked. I went low carb - no idea how many carbs, I just tried to find things that kept my blood sugar constant. For me, that was meat. I couldn’t eat enough vegetables to fill me up or satisfy me. Beans were a huge spike. Fruit, no way. 
What I also noticed, was that if I could walk or exercise after I ate, the spike was almost always low and short. I couldn’t get away with the 10 minutes they say you can- I had to walk a good 2 miles to see much effect. But that worked for me too. 
So, now, me personally! Not anyone else, I can eat low carb meats and veggies and stay pretty steady, or I can eat high fiber and some carbs and exercise and be almost as steady. I would think almost anyone walking 20,000 steps a day would use up all the glucose their body generates from carbs. But for office lifestyles, sedentary lifestyles, people who are injured and can’t exercise a lot, it’s hard to use those up, and low carb works. And I’ve heard exercising once a day, a big long walk will work. For me, it hasn’t reduced my fasting glucose. If there are still spikes from my other meals, it’s not enough to offset those. 

I’m so early into this, and there’s so many theories out there. And they seem to be making new discoveries every day. I do believe plant products have a great impact on our health, so I’m trying my best not to rely on meat and cheese to be low carb. But I do feel better eating that way, satisfied, happier, fuller, and I’m losing weight. 

It’s a process for sure! 

Your body reacts exactly like mine does. I don’t have a continuous glucose monitor though. My insurance won’t cover it and I can’t afford it out-of-pocket so I poke myself between six to eight times a day. I get frustrated because I eat the exact same breakfast and lunch every day. My snack is usually the exact same though I am experimenting so depending on what I am trying, that can change . My only variety is my dinner. And yet I can have blood sugar spikes on occasion which have no correlation  to my carb intake. 
 

My exercise level is higher than sedentary and lower than highly active. I started out literally with one pound weights in PT and am now up to 55 pounds (obviously depending on the muscles being worked). 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Jean in Newcastle
Autocorrect

[Selkie]

38 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is awesome. However,  as much as I am a fan of eatong plants, anecdotes about individuals don't prove anything. My grandmothers and great-grandma lived well into their nineties without significant health problems on the high carb, high meat traditional diet of the region. A diet that no nutritionist, no matter what school, would recommend.  I wouldn't consider it proof of this being advisable. If anything,  it shows that there are many diets under which humans can thrive, and that  orthorexia is a luxury for folks in extremely wealthy countries like the US.

I agree about anecdotes, which is why we have also been discussing scientific studies.

Re. the bolded, I think there are many diets under which humans can survive - but not so many under which they can thrive. The US spends more on healthcare than any other developed nation, yet has the worst outcomes. Take a walk through any shopping complex in America and you will see that most Americans are not thriving physically.

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I agree about anecdotes, which is why we have also been discussing scientific studies.

Re. the bolded, I think there are many diets under which humans can survive - but not so many under which they can thrive. The US spends more on healthcare than any other developed nation, yet has the worst outcomes. Take a walk through any shopping complex in America and you will see that most Americans are not thriving physically.

Oh, completely agree that the US has health problems. OTOH, humans *have* been thriving, and not merely surviving,  with a variety of traditional diets.

Eta: the Inuit have very low incidence of heart disease and diabetes, while consuming an extremely meat heavy diet

Edited June 12, 2022 by regentrude

[Selkie]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Oh, completely agree that the US has health problems. OTOH, humans *have* been thriving, and not merely surviving,  with a variety of traditional diets.

Eta: the Inuit have very low incidence of heart disease and diabetes, while consuming an extremely meat heavy diet

That is an often-repeated myth about the Inuit.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/how-do-inuits-get-their-five-a-day/

But an Inuit diet isn’t any healthier than a modern Western diet. Inuits have similar levels of coronary heart disease and a somewhat higher incidence of osteoporosis and stroke, since they get a higher proportion of their calories from animal fat and have limited access to dietary calcium.

 

 

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

That is an often-repeated myth about the Inuit.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/how-do-inuits-get-their-five-a-day/

But an Inuit diet isn’t any healthier than a modern Western diet. Inuits have similar levels of coronary heart disease and a somewhat higher incidence of osteoporosis and stroke, since they get a higher proportion of their calories from animal fat and have limited access to dietary calcium.

 

 

I believe that is talking about a modern inuit diet, not traditional. My understanding is that the farther they got/get from traditional foods, the worse their health got. 

 

[Selkie]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

I believe that is talking about a modern inuit diet, not traditional. My understanding is that the farther they got/get from traditional foods, the worse their health got. 

 

Nah, it’s not just modern Inuits. There were studies done on Inuit mummies who lived hundreds of years ago and they had atherosclerosis.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Selkie said:

That is an often-repeated myth about the Inuit.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/how-do-inuits-get-their-five-a-day/

But an Inuit diet isn’t any healthier than a modern Western diet. Inuits have similar levels of coronary heart disease and a somewhat higher incidence of osteoporosis and stroke, since they get a higher proportion of their calories from animal fat and have limited access to dietary calcium.

 

 

A Google search brings up plenty of scholarly articles to the contrary.  

I disagree your claim that humans cannot thrive with other than your preferred diet. But I am not invested enough to spend more time debating. Because I need to go make food