Do you love meat? Or not?

[ktgrok]

Again it seems "meat vs plant" is a bit of an oversimplification...

 

Fats have been demonized in the United States, says Eric Dewailly, a professor of preventive medicine at Laval University in Quebec. But all fats are not created equal. This lies at the heart of a paradox — the Inuit paradox, if you will. In the Nunavik villages in northern Quebec, adults over 40 get almost half their calories from native foods, says Dewailly, and they don’t die of heart attacks at nearly the same rates as other Canadians or Americans. Their cardiac death rate is about half of ours, he says. As someone who looks for links between diet and cardiovascular health, he’s intrigued by that reduced risk. Because the traditional Inuit diet is “so restricted,” he says, it’s easier to study than the famously heart-healthy Mediterranean diet, with its cornucopia of vegetables, fruits, grains, herbs, spices, olive oil, and red wine.

A key difference in the typical Nunavik Inuit’s diet is that more than 50 percent of the calories in Inuit native foods come from fats. Much more important, the fats come from wild animals....

Wild animals that range freely and eat what nature intended, says Dewailly, have fat that is far more healthful. Less of their fat is saturated, and more of it is in the monounsaturated form (like olive oil). What’s more, cold-water fishes and sea mammals are particularly rich in polyunsaturated fats called n-3 fatty acids or omega-3 fatty acids. These fats appear to benefit the heart and vascular system. But the polyunsaturated fats in most Americans’ diets are the omega-6 fatty acids supplied by vegetable oils. By contrast, whale blubber consists of 70 percent monounsaturated fat and close to 30 percent omega-3s, says Dewailly.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-inuit-paradox

[Jean in Newcastle]

46 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I don't really get irritated, but I do quite a lot of mental eye rolling. I'm sure I was totally obnoxious about my own WOE 30+ years ago, when I decided to lose weight and get healthy. Age and experience have taught me that my way needs to be the best for me, and that others will almost always be dealing with somewhat different challenges--people can tolerate foods that I can't, I thrive on foods they don't, I have different medical diagnoses that affect my food choices than someone else does, etc. Now I'm happy to share what works for me, but I'm never gonna be the food police. Don't want that job! And I'll say that joining a large cancer/medical support board after DH was diagnosed and seeing how very many lifelong vegans, vegetarians, marathon runners, triatheletes, etc. develop cancer and chronic illnesses has really made me realize that life is just a crapshoot. I eat the best I can in order to feel my best today. That's the only thing I can control.

Exactly. I can acknowledge that gluten containing whole grains are healthy for many people while also acknowledging that for some of us it literally tears us up from the inside out. I can also acknowledge that legumes are a healthy source of protein and other nutrients while also acknowledging that some of us can’t process the glucose spike that it can cause. And I can acknowledge that some people can get valuable nutrition from meat while others do just fine or even better without it. 

[Corraleno]

Regardless of whether or not a truly traditional Inuit diet led to significant disease, the traditional Inuit diet is not remotely comparable to a modern, Western low carb/keto/paleo diet. In addition to meat from wild game and marine mammals, the Inuit ate a lot of fish, as well as seaweed, raw liver, and other offal. The ratio of Omega 6 to 3 was 1:1, versus as much as 20:1 in a Western diet. An American eating a keto or "paleo" diet who is consuming lots of meat and eggs from factory farmed animals that were fed soy and corn, plus lots of high fat dairy, is eating a completely different diet from what the Inuit traditionally ate.

Another culture that keto/paleo proponents like to cite as proof that humans can thrive on a predominantly meat diet are East African pastoralists like the Maasai and Samburu. But genetic testing has shown that they have developed genetic mutations over hundreds of years that allow them to live on that diet — Westerners without those mutations who tried to eat their diet would not fare nearly as well, and again the traditional Maasai diet is nothing like a Western high meat/low carb diet.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Exactly. I can acknowledge that gluten containing whole grains are healthy for many people while also acknowledging that for some of us it literally tears us up from the inside out. I can also acknowledge that legumes are a healthy source of protein and other nutrients while also acknowledging that some of us can’t process the glucose spike that it can cause. And I can acknowledge that some people can get valuable nutrition from meat while others do just fine or even better without it. 

Yup. And that much of it is not just genetic, or even epigenetic, but also due to the genetics of our microbiome. 

And that what works best for us can change in various life stages, disease states, etc. 

And of course, is also based on what we actually like to eat! A super taster that finds almost all vegetables bitter isn't going to be happy eating big plates of cabbage, and a person with sensory issues may be unable to eat legumes without gagging (don't even talk to me about boiled peanuts -UGH). 

Add in gut issues, allergies, etc and it's SO individual. (it is NOT fair that only a few years after I started LIKING brussel sprouts and cabbage and roasted broccoli my intestines decided they did NOT like these things)

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

Regardless of whether or not a truly traditional Inuit diet led to significant disease, the traditional Inuit diet is not remotely comparable to a modern, Western low carb/keto/paleo diet. In addition to meat from wild game and marine mammals, the Inuit ate a lot of fish, as well as seaweed, raw liver, and other offal. The ratio of Omega 6 to 3 was 1:1, versus as much as 20:1 in a Western diet. An American eating a keto or "paleo" diet who is consuming lots of meat and eggs from factory farmed animals that were fed soy and corn, plus lots of high fat dairy, is eating a completely different diet from what the Inuit traditionally ate.

Another culture that keto/paleo proponents like to cite as proof that humans can thrive on a predominantly meat diet are East African pastoralists like the Maasai and Samburu. But genetic testing has shown that they have developed genetic mutations over hundreds of years that allow them to live on that diet — Westerners without those mutations who tried to eat their diet would not fare nearly as well, and again the traditional Maasai diet is nothing like a Western high meat/low carb diet.

Sorry - I guess i wasn't clear. That's what the article I posted from was saying as well - that even though the Inuit diet is heavy in meat, if you look at NUTRIENTS it is actually very similar to a Mediterranean diet as far as fatty acid profiles. Both are higher in monounsaturated and omega 3s compared to standard western diet. It's why I really try hard to get pastured eggs, grass fed meat, etc and get in my nuts, use olive oil, etc. 

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Regardless of whether or not a truly traditional Inuit diet led to significant disease, the traditional Inuit diet is not remotely comparable to a modern, Western low carb/keto/paleo diet. In addition to meat from wild game and marine mammals, the Inuit ate a lot of fish, as well as seaweed, raw liver, and other offal. The ratio of Omega 6 to 3 was 1:1, versus as much as 20:1 in a Western diet. An American eating a keto or "paleo" diet who is consuming lots of meat and eggs from factory farmed animals that were fed soy and corn, plus lots of high fat dairy, is eating a completely different diet from what the Inuit traditionally ate.

Another culture that keto/paleo proponents like to cite as proof that humans can thrive on a predominantly meat diet are East African pastoralists like the Maasai and Samburu. But genetic testing has shown that they have developed genetic mutations over hundreds of years that allow them to live on that diet — Westerners without those mutations who tried to eat their diet would not fare nearly as well, and again the traditional Maasai diet is nothing like a Western high meat/low carb diet.

Just to clarify again: My point in bringing up the Inuit was *not* to claim that it is a superior diet Westerners should mimic. My point was solely to refute the claim that humans cannot thrive on a non-plant-based diet.

[Clarita]

Oh wait I do crave Sashimi on really hot days. I do crave meat occasionally. I'm an omnivore because I can't imagine giving up any general food. (There are foods that I don't like don't get me wrong, but they just aren't generals like things from the sea, meat, vegetables, mushrooms...)

[Selkie]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Just to clarify again: My point in bringing up the Inuit was *not* to claim that it is a superior diet Westerners should mimic. My point was solely to refute the claim that humans cannot thrive on a non-plant-based diet.

Who claimed that? Your Inuit comment was aimed at me, but I have made no such claim. I’m not looking to argue, but it bugs me when people are inaccurate.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I find the dichotomy between a high fat/high protein strict keto diet vs strict vegan diet to be baffling and unnecessary. I personally would love to be an “all things in moderation “ balanced diet kind of person. Unfortunately my particular body has forced me to totally take out gluten and grains in general. And it’s forced me to severely limit beans and legumes. So I am forced to have fewer choices. Meat somewhat fills the void that grains and beans/legumes leaves in my diet. 
 

eta-  I do rely greatly on the nutritional contribution of fruits and vegetables. But I have to be careful and have to consider and try to mitigate their glycemic index especially of starchy vegetables and certain fruits. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Jean in Newcastle
Added

[Corraleno]

19 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Sorry - I guess i wasn't clear. That's what the article I posted from was saying as well - that even though the Inuit diet is heavy in meat, if you look at NUTRIENTS it is actually very similar to a Mediterranean diet as far as fatty acid profiles. Both are higher in monounsaturated and omega 3s compared to standard western diet. It's why I really try hard to get pastured eggs, grass fed meat, etc and get in my nuts, use olive oil, etc. 

We were typing at the same time, so I didn't see your comment until after I posted. I agree with what you posted, it drives me crazy that when keto proponents*  cite the Inuit as "proof" that a high meat/high fat diet is healthy, they conveniently ignore the vast difference between whale blubber and raw caribou liver vs bacon and heavy cream. (And I am not at all anti-fat, my diet usually ranges ~35-40% fat, but my Omega 6:3 ratio is even better than 1:1 because it comes from nuts, seeds, avocado, and a small amount of olive oil.)

*I'm not talking about anyone here, I'm referring to the keto folks who sell books and supplements and have millions of followers on Insta and YouTube.

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

I agree about anecdotes, which is why we have also been discussing scientific studies.

Re. the bolded, I think there are many diets under which humans can survive - but not so many under which they can thrive. The US spends more on healthcare than any other developed nation, yet has the worst outcomes. Take a walk through any shopping complex in America and you will see that most Americans are not thriving physically.

 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Just to clarify again: My point in bringing up the Inuit was *not* to claim that it is a superior diet Westerners should mimic. My point was solely to refute the claim that humans cannot thrive on a non-plant-based diet.

 

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

Who claimed that? Your Inuit comment was aimed at me, but I have made no such claim. I’m not looking to argue, but it bugs me when people are inaccurate.

 

Since you've blamed most of the health issues people are plagued by on eating meat, and have been very adamant that the only healthy diet is plant-based, I certainly took your above comment about thrive versus survive to mean plant-based diets are necessary to thrive.  

What non-plant based diets do you think modern people can thrive on?

[GoVanGogh]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

That is awesome. However,  as much as I am a fan of eatong plants, anecdotes about individuals don't prove anything. My grandmothers and great-grandma lived well into their nineties without significant health problems on the high carb, high meat traditional diet of the region. A diet that no nutritionist, no matter what school, would recommend.  I wouldn't consider it proof of this being advisable. If anything,  it shows that there are many diets under which humans can thrive, and that  orthorexia is a luxury for folks in extremely wealthy countries like the US.

I have always wondered about that, whether it is genetics or just that those generations didn’t have processed foods like we do today or those cases are outliers. 
My great grandpa died of old age and was rail thin all this life. He smoked a lot and put cream on everything, even fresh fruit. His wife, whom didn’t smoke and I assume ate a similar diet in the adult years, was not so fortunate. (Multiple strokes and diabetes.) Their daughter (my paternal grandma) also smoked heavily. She, too, died of old age. That said, she did have open heart surgery in her later years, but bounced back from that and lived healthfully for several more years. She walked everywhere, right up to the week or two before she passed away. She had significant osteoporosis with classic hunch and lost over six inches in height. She took two major falls in her later years but never broke a bone. (One, she was caught outside at the start of a tornado and blown off her raised porch by the storm door.) That has always made me wonder if she was an outlier, as she should have broken something in that fall. My grandma’s siblings all died of old age and didn’t have any health issues even in their older years. My grandma had three children. The oldest died young of aggressive colon cancer. The second died in an accident, after surviving polio as a child and the Vietnam war as a young adult. The youngest currently has aggressive cancer. I don’t know why some are fortunate and some are not. I am not one to think “one size fits all,” as there are so many variables. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by GoVanGogh

[Selkie]

15 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

Since you've blamed most of the health issues people are plagued by on eating meat, and have been very adamant that the only healthy diet is plant-based, I certainly took your above comment about thrive versus survive to mean plant-based diets are necessary to thrive.  

What non-plant based diets do you think modern people can thrive on?

Again, let's be accurate. I have talked about (and linked) studies showing that animal protein is harmful to human health, and studies showing plant based diets are beneficial to human health - as have a few others on this thread.

These are not things that we are making up or pulling out of thin air. It is evidence-based science.

I haven't been on here saying, "No one should eat meat ever". I've been saying, "Look at this study showing how animal protein harms human health and shortens lifespan, while plants have the opposite effect".

I am very science driven, so I follow the science when I make decisions about my health and what to eat. I haven't said that others need to eat this way, and there is no law forcing you or anyone to follow the science. If my posts make you uncomfortable, I will not be offended if you put me on ignore.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

We were typing at the same time, so I didn't see your comment until after I posted. I agree with what you posted, it drives me crazy that when keto proponents*  cite the Inuit as "proof" that a high meat/high fat diet is healthy, they conveniently ignore the vast difference between whale blubber and raw caribou liver vs bacon and heavy cream. (And I am not at all anti-fat, my diet usually ranges ~35-40% fat, but my Omega 6:3 ratio is even better than 1:1 because it comes from nuts, seeds, avocado, and a small amount of olive oil.)

*I'm not talking about anyone here, I'm referring to the keto folks who sell books and supplements and have millions of followers on Insta and YouTube.

Agree. Trust me, I got shunned from low carb groups for suggesting that not losing weight isn't a sign you need to start dumping a stick of butter on every food you eat.....

But I also think a too low fat diet can be very detrimental to mental health, brain health, etc. But too many omega 6's are bad for inflammation, and most people don't know the difference, or don't have access to better ratio omegas. 

I don't think it is as simple as plant/animal - but I think you also get that. Like, cutting meat but eating chips and cookies all day is NOT going to be healthier than a salad with several different veggies, nuts, berries, seeds, and chicken. Nor will a diet of butter topped bacon with a handful of artificially sweetened 500 calories per piece candy be better than a plant based diet based on legumes, whole grains, and fruits/veggies. 

[Melissa in Australia]

How old do you really want to live? 

Personally I will be fine getting to 90 like most of my ancestors, the rest either die at around 60 from a genetic aortic aneurysm or live almost to 100. All of them ate a well balanced diet that inclused meat and veggies in season. There is no known history of cancer in my family. My great grandfather died at 97 and said the secret of living a long time is not overeating. He had known a lot if people who died younger than him and the common factor was they would overeat. 

 My DH mum is over 100, as is her sister. They are still alive. Their diet is a typical German diet with lots of potatoes, lots of animal fat and meat. 

I personally have no desire to be 115 and just existing and eat only veggies. I will be happy with early 90s and eating meat. 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Melissa in Australia
spelling

[Melissa in Australia]

A portion size if meat us basically the size of your palm of your hand. It is a very handy way to measure while serving. Adult Men have a bigger palm. 

[Selkie]

11 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

How old do you really want to live? 

Personally I will be fine getting to 90 like most of my ancestors, the rest either die at around 60 from a genetic aortic aneurysm or live almost to 100. All of them ate a well balanced diet that inclused meat and veggies in season. There is no known history of cancer in my family. My great grandfather died at 97 and said the secret of living a long time is not overeating. He had known a lot if people who died younger than him and the common factor was they would overeat. 

 My DH mum is over 100, as is her sister. They are still alive. Their diet is a typical German diet with lots of potatoes, lots of animal fat and meat. 

I personally have no desire to be 115 and just existing and eat only veggies. I will be happy with early 90s and eating meat. 

 

This is what dh and I have observed among our family members and other people we know: Our grandparents' generation (born in the early 1900s) tended to be fit and trim and mostly disease-free until they were very elderly. Our parents' generation (born in 1930s & 40s) were less fit and had health problems earlier (in their 50s and 60s). And now in our generation (born in 1960s & 70s), so many of our relatives and friends have been experiencing significant health problems (obesity, diabetes, severe cardiac issues, autoimmune problems) starting in their 40s, 30s or even earlier. Even if they live as long as previous generations, their healthspan (period of life spent in good health) is so much shorter. That is what dh and I are aiming to avoid.

Diet in the US has changed significantly over time and looks much different than it did for previous generations, and that is clearly having an effect on human health.

 

[Indigo Blue]

If I live to my 90’s, I want to feel good and not live those years feeling bad all the time. Of course there are no guarantees no matter what you eat, but that is sort of my plan. I think what is optimal can vary, especially for people with specific ways they have to eat, but the closer to whole food form the better. There is way too much processed junk in our culture, that’s for sure. I’m fine with giving up eating to make myself happy (within reason) in order to feel better. This is just my personal choice. I don’t want to subscribe to “eat what you want; you’re gonna die, anyway”. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/blue-zones-diet-speculation-based-on-misinformation/

[KungFuPanda]

I thought of this thread tonight. I made this for dinner, but I used chicken broth because that’s what I had on hand. 🤣 I did cook the beans from dried and grow the kale myself, so I want credit. 
 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by KungFuPanda