JAWM

[Indigo Blue]

Venting….and even though I know so, just need to hear voices of solidarity that washing a child’s mouth out with soap IS abusive. Found out today this happened to someone as a child that I care about  (he’s a grown adult now). It was done by someone else in the family ( it wasn’t my mom) whom I have always thought was a toxic person. This further confirmed it. This same guy just lost a loved one and this same abusive person also said something horrible and very insensitive to him just after the passing of loved one. Right in the hospital room. I’m angry and my heart is just hurting for him today. 
 

And I need to hear the solidarity because this story, told during said family (out of town relatives on Dh side I usually never see) gathering, prompted no shocked or surprised looks. It’s as if it’s a normal thing to do to a child. 
 

Please be angry with me….


 

 

[Laura Corin]

It's not normal.

[QueenCat]

It is abusive. 100%. That would make me very concerned about what else is happening to children in that home.

[Rosie_0801]

Lots of normal things are abusive. 😞

Or maybe it is the other way around? Lots of abusive things are normal.

It's still a lousy way of treating people.

[Selkie]

It's not seen as a normal thing to do now, but it was back in the 70s and 80s when I was a kid - at least in the area where I grew up.

[Loowit]

It is abusive, and wrong.  I had an aunt that did that to me once, and I wasn't even the one who said the bad word.  But we all got in trouble for one cousin saying something.  It was at my grandma's house.  My mom was furious when she found out, and we spent much less time at grandma's house after that.  The most ridiculous part to me was she was the most foul mouthed of all of my aunts.

[Katy]

It’s abusive. 

[catz]

It's 100% abusive.  Just because it's been normalized in certain times or places doesn't mean it isn't abusive and can cause trauma.

[JustEm]

Abusive

[Indigo Blue]

20 minutes ago, Loowit said:

The most ridiculous part to me was she was the most foul mouthed of all of my aunts.

And this doesn’t surprise me one little bit. 

[Indigo Blue]

16 minutes ago, catz said:

It's 100% abusive.  Just because it's been normalized in certain times or places doesn't mean it isn't abusive and can cause trauma.

I agree 100 percent. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

It’s abusive. My mom did it to us.  Everyone I knew had their mouths washed out with soap. It wasn’t considered abusive, but it was.

[Corraleno]

It's absolutely abusive. My mother did that to me ALL THE TIME as a kid — she would stick a bar of soap in my mouth and scrape it against my teeth to make it harder to get it out, and then not let me rinse it out for awhile. And that was not even for cursing, just for "talking back." She also routinely beat us with sticks, belts, hairbrushes, and kitchen utensils. Whether you ended up with a mouth full of soap or welts all over your body as a result of "back talking" depended more on her mood at that time than the nature of the offense. But that was all considered "normal discipline" back then — and I knew of kids in my neighborhood who actually had it worse than we did.

[Kassia]

30 minutes ago, catz said:

It's 100% abusive.  Just because it's been normalized in certain times or places doesn't mean it isn't abusive and can cause trauma.

I agree. It was done to me by my mother along with other abusive behaviors.  

 

2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's absolutely abusive. My mother did that to me ALL THE TIME as a kid — she would stick a bar of soap in my mouth and scrape it against my teeth to make it harder to get it out, and then not let me rinse it out for awhile. And that was not even for cursing, just for "talking back." She also routinely beat us with sticks, belts, hairbrushes, and kitchen utensils. Whether you ended up with a mouth full of soap or welts all over your body as a result of "back talking" depended more on her mood at that time than the nature of the offense. But that was all considered "normal discipline" back then — and I knew of kids in my neighborhood who actually had it worse than we did.

I'm so sorry.  What a terrible way to grow up.  😞  

[wintermom]

Some people are simply mean and/or cruel  to adults and children. Good for you for calling this person out on nasty behaviour. If more people do this, and shine some light on dark, ugly acts, hopefully they can be stopped before they hurt more people. 

[bolt.]

You're right. It's abusive.

Perhaps the lack of reaction was simply because bystanders were unsurprised and not terribly reflective about the story -- not because they continue to find the practice acceptable today.

On the other hand, maybe they do wish all parents were harsh and physical with 'kids today'. As if being raised monstrously and turning out emotionally stunted but 'well behaved' was somehow better than the softer practices of parenting of today.

[SKL]

How long ago?  This was a very common practice when/where I grew up … most people had it happen once.  Myself included. Similar to being sent to bed without supper.  Definitely frowned upon today.  Personally I am selective about what I term “abuse,” but it’s definitely frowned upon now.

The soap scene in A Christmas Story resonates with many.

[math teacher]

I agree it's abusive and that it was common practice when I was a child. I never had it done to me, however. Not that my parents were not abusive-They Were-I just didn't have my mouth washed out with soap.

[MercyA]

It's very mean. And I can only imagine how torturous it would be for a child with taste and texture sensitivities. 

ETA: I grew up in the 70's and 80's, and never knew anyone who actually had this done to them. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by MercyA

[BakersDozen]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

It's absolutely abusive. My mother did that to me ALL THE TIME as a kid — she would stick a bar of soap in my mouth and scrape it against my teeth to make it harder to get it out, and then not let me rinse it out for awhile. And that was not even for cursing, just for "talking back." She also routinely beat us with sticks, belts, hairbrushes, and kitchen utensils. Whether you ended up with a mouth full of soap or welts all over your body as a result of "back talking" depended more on her mood at that time than the nature of the offense. But that was all considered "normal discipline" back then — and I knew of kids in my neighborhood who actually had it worse than we did.

Are we related?

I never swore. Never. I wouldn't say "soft" swear words like gosh/darn/heck. One day I slammed my fingers in the front door and said the 's' word. My mom scrubbed my teeth/tongue w/soap and then set the timer for 30 minutes while I stood at the kitchen sink. No drink allowed. And friends came over for dinner and I had to stand there, utterly humiliated (they actually ended up leaving and never spoke to my mom again). Talking back (aka trying to ask a valid question)? Soap in the mouth. Anything that made my mom angry, she picked up whatever was handy and came after you - hairbrushes, fly swatters, metal vacuum pole. It was a lovely way to grow up.

[Pam in CT]

I agree with you.

 

And I'm so sorry for what too many on this thread, and on this earth, have had to endure. Every single child deserves better.

[happi duck]

I am angry with you.

The soap is abusive.  

Cruelty during intense times of grief is especially hurtful.

[mommyoffive]

I never before this thought it that way.  I have never done it to my kids, in part because I remember how horrible it was.  But it was done to me as a kid a few times that I remember.  Soap in the mouth, not allowed to rinse, locked in your room and then I would barf and spit all over my blankets.  I guess I never thought that I was abused so I didn't think of it that way.  Even though I don't let or want my kids to swear, I haven't ever though that an normal reaction was to wash their mouths out.  I just say they are not to talk like that and it usually is enough.  

[Indigo Blue]

5 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Soap in the mouth, not allowed to rinse, locked in your room and then I would barf and spit all over my blankets.  I

This was definitely abuse. I’m so sorry this happened. I can’t believe how many here actually had this happen to them. That is so sad. That is utterly horrid.
 

I had lots of abusive things happen to me. Struck with flyswatters and belts. Verbal abuse. Emotional abuse. The kind that strips away your confidence and makes you grow into a person who doesn’t trust most people and values honesty and the rare, genuine person. I was even assaulted by my mother when I was 17. She struck me across the back while I was bent over rinsing my hair under the tub faucet. I said something you couldn’t even classify as back talking. It was more of an assertion, and, at that age, I should have been able to assert myself. She tried to force me to eat foods I didn’t like. I never had my mouth washed out with soap, though. 
 

[Indigo Blue]

I’m more angry now than when I started the thread. I’m angry now for the people in this thread that endured this ridiculous treatment and more. Some people really, really suck. And I don’t usually express myself in those words, but right now, I feel that. 

[Indigo Blue]

31 minutes ago, happi duck said:

Cruelty during intense times of grief is especially hurtful

Yes, it is. Just absolutely awful. I wasn’t there in the room when it happened. I found out later. There is absolutely no reason why the thing that was said needed to be said right in that moment, and in such a harsh, cruel way. 

[Clarita]

I remember when my parents found out some people did that in the US, they were horrified. My mom came from a household where it was normal to hit your kids with a bamboo stick and my dad was an orphan lived on the streets. Forget the taste and discomfort, if you aren't careful about your soap, can't it be toxic. And even if it isn't truly toxic soap will cause irritation in your stomach and intestines if ingested and the fun that can come with that.  

[Ethel Mertz]

Another mouth-washed-out-with-soap survivor here. Also was spanked with the hard side of a hairbrush. Ugh. So sorry there are so many folks here who also had soap in the mouth.

[gardenmom5]

Is it because that side of the family thinks all of this is ok to do to a child, or they know this is just typical behavior for this toxic person and they're just weary?

eta: is the toxic person a grandparent or do they still have minor children at home?

Edited March 21, 2022 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Yes, it is. Just absolutely awful. I wasn’t there in the room when it happened. I found out later. There is absolutely no reason why the thing that was said needed to be said right in that moment, and in such a harsh, cruel way. 

It's what toxic people do.  

[Terabith]

When my oldest was little, we had to hide or secure the soap because they would eat it.  They loved the taste, and would sneak in to do so.  We used to joke that that would never be a possible punishment for our kid, but of course we would never do it.  It wasn’t done to either of us as kids, but it was something peers talked about happening pretty regularly.  I have a vague memory maybe of my kindergarten teacher doing this to a kid?  Could easily be wrong though.  I do believe it’s abusive,  but I also simultaneously believe that to some extent, abuse is contextual.  When certain practices are incredibly common in a culture, otherwise good and kind parents can resort to them because that’s just what the culture says to do.  Doesn’t make it right, but I think it makes it more easily understood?  I was spanked with a belt repeatedly as a child, and while I think it was low key abusive, it was so normalized that I don’t think my Baby Boomer parents had any reasonable way to know it was.  And even though I felt in my gut that spanking was wrong, I spanked my toddler/ preschooler kids a handful (3 or 4?) of times (with my hand, over a butt with a pull up on it), because I didn’t know what to do and everyone around me said that was the correct way to deal with certain situations.  It was wrong, probably abusive, but so ingrained in the culture (religious, geographic, and in time) that I didn’t have a good feel for alternatives.  
 

Hopefully when we know better, we do better.  

[Bootsie]

I do not agree with the practice and would never consider washing my kids' mouth out with soap.  However, if we were at a gathering with people I grew up with, I don't think people would be shocked to hear of someone having done this.  DH grew up in the 50s and remembers having his mouth washed out with soap. I remember in the 60s and the 70s having classmates have their mouths washed out with soap.  I never had mine washed out with soap, but my sister did..

[QueenCat]

17 hours ago, MercyA said:

It's very mean. And I can only imagine how torturous it would be for a child with taste and texture sensitivities. 

ETA: I grew up in the 70's and 80's, and never knew anyone who actually had this done to them. 

Same. My friends and I weren't beat with belts or spoons either. Dh was and he said that would never happen to our kids. Thankfully, or I couldn't have married him. 

[Selkie]

I didn’t get my mouth washed out, but I remember it happening to my brother. I got spanked and hit with a belt. Back then, nobody blinked an eye at that kind of thing. I mean, those were the days when the teachers and principal would hit kids with a wooden paddle, and I don’t remember any adults ever objecting to it.

[SKL]

27 minutes ago, Selkie said:

I didn’t get my mouth washed out, but I remember it happening to my brother. I got spanked and hit with a belt. Back then, nobody blinked an eye at that kind of thing. I mean, those were the days when the teachers and principal would hit kids with a wooden paddle, and I don’t remember any adults ever objecting to it.

Yeah, I think they considered the soap thing one step down (less abusive) compared to whacking kids in the face, which was only recently falling out of favor when I was young.

I will say that the individual who did this to me was and is a very loving person.  That person would never do something that was seen as abuse in the relevant culture.  (And when it was done to me, after fair warning, I didn't feel abused.  I felt like I pushed my luck too far.)

And there are things that are commonplace today that might be seen as awful in another context, I'm sure.

[Spryte]

I’m so sorry anyone had to endure this.

[rebcoola]

It had fallen our of favor I think by the time I was kid.  I never had it done and never heard of any of my peers having it done. I would definitely think it was abusive if done nowadays.  If older people were talking about back in the day it wouldn't hit the same I don't think.

[stephanier.1765]

Count me in as another child of the 70's who had her mouth washed out with soap. Hot sauce was sometimes used an alternative. My maternal grandmother liked to use a switch on us and I would tell my mother but then we'd just get in trouble all over again for whatever infraction initiated the switching.

[mommyoffive]

Yeah I agree that things were just common place in my time.  My childhood was mostly in the 80s and I got spanked and hit with a brush as well.  It was something that was normal

[wintermom]

30 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Yeah I agree that things were just common place in my time.  My childhood was mostly in the 80s and I got spanked and hit with a brush as well.  It was something that was normal

Me, too. My mom got the maddest at me when the hair brush broke while she was spanking me...like that was my fault, too. 🤪

My dh describes how he and his 5 siblings would hide all the wooden spoons when they went to visit grandma. Smart kids, but then grandma brought out the metal spoon. Suddenly many wooden spoons were all 'found' again. 🤣

How did we survive these 'good old' days? 

[mommyoffive]

1 minute ago, wintermom said:

Me, too. My mom got the maddest at me when the hair brush broke while she was spanking me...like that was my fault, too. 🤪

My dh describes how he and his 5 siblings would hide all the wooden spoons when they went to visit grandma. Smart kids, but then grandma brought out the metal spoon. Suddenly many wooden spoons were all 'found' again. 🤣

How did we survive these 'good old' days? 

Even though for my childhood it was normal thing for me, I was so taken a back when I went to a homeschool coop and a mom took her young child into the bathroom to spank him with a wooden spoon.  Times have changed a lot since I was a kid.  I think there are parents who are still doing this, but I think there is such a wave of not spanking your children in the news and magazines that it is not common place.

[stephanier.1765]

4 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Me, too. My mom got the maddest at me when the hair brush broke while she was spanking me...like that was my fault, too. 🤪

My dh describes how he and his 5 siblings would hide all the wooden spoons when they went to visit grandma. Smart kids, but then grandma brought out the metal spoon. Suddenly many wooden spoons were all 'found' again. 🤣

How did we survive these 'good old' days? 

My son's GF was spanked regularly with a wooden spoon. Her mother would even carry the spoon in her purse whenever they went out so they would know punishment was always close at hand. She is a child of the late 90's/ early 2000's.

Are the good ol' days whenever we were children? LOL Because despite the soap, hot sauce, switch and belt, I do think of them that way.

[wintermom]

4 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Even though for my childhood it was normal thing for me, I was so taken a back when I went to a homeschool coop and a mom took her young child into the bathroom to spank him with a wooden spoon.  Times have changed a lot since I was a kid.  I think there are parents who are still doing this, but I think there is such a wave of not spanking your children in the news and magazines that it is not common place.

Besides being 'not common place,' I believe spanking is illegal in some countries.

There are so many alternatives to spanking that are effective in teaching desired behaviour, but where can parents find out about these methods? There is a lack of good information available to new parents, I think. Sometimes people just fall back on the ways they were used to from their own childhood.

 

[mommyoffive]

Just now, wintermom said:

Besides being 'not common place,' I believe spanking is illegal in some countries.

There are so many alternatives to spanking that are effective in teaching desired behaviour, but where can parents find out about these methods? There is a lack of good information available to new parents, I think. Sometimes people just fall back on the ways they were used to from their own childhood.

 

Very true.  In my area there has been a focus on teaching parents with Love and Logic parenting.  Our doctor would bring it up every well child apt and it was in all the handouts.   But also the schools have free love and logic parenting classes for people.  It would be great if there was a parenting/family class in high school.  

[Laura Corin]

29 minutes ago, wintermom said:

Besides being 'not common place,' I believe spanking is illegal in some countries.

There are so many alternatives to spanking that are effective in teaching desired behaviour, but where can parents find out about these methods? There is a lack of good information available to new parents, I think. Sometimes people just fall back on the ways they were used to from their own childhood.

 

It's been illegal in Scotland for the past two years

https://www.mygov.scot/smacking-children#:~:text=Smacking and the law&text=All forms of physical punishment,defence against an assault charge.

Eta and will be in Wales from next week 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60781395

Edited March 21, 2022 by Laura Corin

[wintermom]

Actually, spanking is illegal in many countries.

Countries Where Child Corporal Punishment Is Illegal

Rank	Country	Year of Law
1	Sweden	1966
2	Finland	1969
3	Norway	1972
4	Austria	1977
5	Denmark	1985
6	Portugal	1994
7	Cyprus	1994
8	Italy	1996
9	Poland	1997
10	Latvia	1998
11	Germany	1998
12	Croatia	1999
13	Bulgaria	2000
14	Israel	2000
15	Turkmenistan	2002
16	Iceland	2003
17	Ukraine	2004
18	Hungary	2005
19	Greece	2006
20	Netherlands	2007
21	New Zealand	2007
22	Uruguay	2007
23	Venezuela	2007
24	Chile	2007
25	Spain	2007
26	Togo	2007
27	Costa Rica	2008
28	Moldova	2008
29	Luxembourg	2008
30	Liechtenstein	2008
31	Tunisia	2010
32	Kenya	2010
33	Republic of the Congo	2010
34	Albania	2010
35	South Sudan	2011
36	North Macedonia	2013
37	Cabo Verde	2013
38	Honduras	2013
39	Malta	2014
40	Brazil	2014
41	Bolivia	2014
42	Argentina	2014
43	San Marino	2014
44	Nicaragua	2014
45	Estonia	2014
46	Andorra	2014
47	Benin	2015
48	Ireland	2015
49	Peru	2015
50	Mongolia	2016
51	Montenegro	2016
52	Paraguay	2016
53	Aruba	2016
54	Slovenia	2016
55	Lithuania	2017
56	Nepal	2018
57	Kosovo	2019
58	France	2019

Source: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-where-child-corporal-punishment-is-illegal.html

 

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Yeah I agree that things were just common place in my time.  My childhood was mostly in the 80s and I got spanked and hit with a brush as well.  It was something that was normal

Maybe where you lived it was normal. It was NOT normal where I lived. I was a child in the 60s to early 80s. I was shocked to find out it was common when I moved to the South and when I met my dh (who is from the south). 

Edited March 21, 2022 by QueenCat

[mommyoffive]

1 minute ago, QueenCat said:

Maybe where you lived it was normal. It was NOT normal where I lived. I was a child in the 60s to early 80s. I was shocked to find out it was common when I moved to the South and when I met my dh (who is from the south). 

Yes, I am just talking about where I lived and grew up.  Not of everywhere.  I grew up in the midwest.

[thewellerman]

It was normal when I was a kid, too, though it never happened to me.  My parents weren't big spankers, but they occasionally would.  I only remember being spanked once.  As an adult, I'm struck by what has to be happening in the mind of a parent to use soap in their child's mouth.  Are they so angry that they drag the child down the hall and assault them with the soap?  Does the child walk meekly down the hallway and open their mouth?  If the parent is calm, can't a rational adult think of a better way?  If the child is meekly accepting their punishment, then why do they need one?  I don't really want to know, but it does confuse me.  

I think a lot of parents still use pretty harsh, if not just adversarial methods.  My kids frequently ask me about stories their friends have shared.