Oh no, I have a teenager now. Help me think through this.

[Moonhawk]

Background info:

So, DD is now 13. She hits this milestone in true teenager fashion: we found a Major Rule of tech was broken. Long story short, 5 months no technology for all kids. DD has not apologized and even though she seemed remorseful/embarrassed and is the one who suggested and later agreed with the consequence, it has not seemed to seep in as being a punishment, more just a change as if there was nothing precipitating it. That's ok, I'm not looking to ruin her life or anything, or have her grovel.

Now, over the weekend I found books in the bathroom, hidden in her hamper. Not world ending on any level. However, we only have 1 bathroom for 6 people and so we have addressed this directly in the past. Also, school is school and you're expected to do school during those times. Or when it's time to do dishes, etc. Going "to the bathroom" and staying in there for 10-15-30 minutes can have a domino effect on everyone else in multiple ways. We had added 2 hours/day of reading time to make it more tenable. More recently, after our clear out/ getting ready to move all books were boxed up, and the new rule is any books not in boxes and not for school are just sold. All kids know this and why.

So, she was with me when I found the books. I stopped and just looked at them, and she said, "I'll go put them in the sell box." I said "Ok, then come back." She did this, we didn't discuss it further, just went forward with the task we were doing.

DH and I had noticed long bathroom breaks from her, but we gave the benefit of the doubt that it was her period or digestion issues after asking her directly a couple times if it was books or stomach. We gave her the benefit of the doubt with the tech too, and were consistently asking if things were ok, reminding her of the rules, asking if she needed to tell us anything, explaining the reasoning behind the rules, etc. Like, at least weekly, and for 5 months she consistently lied to us on this. 

Current issue:

Last night around 11 PM she thought I was asleep. She crept into the book room, opened up a sealed box, and hid another book in the bathroom. I know where and what the book is (Harry Potter, lol).

As far as beginner teenage rebellion, reading in the bathroom isn't really concerning to me. But in the larger picture of a kid that is getting caught, takes the stated consequence, and then doesn't seem to mind doing the same thing again, I'm wondering if I should come down harder. Or just let her think she's getting away with it because it's better not to block up overall-harmless acts and force riskier behavior, and also be able to monitor what's going on.

Basically, would you go blind eye to the book in the bathroom, because it's healthy for a teenager to have some outlet for rebellion and frankly she doesn't have many outlets at her disposal, or would you address the fact that she is consistently disregarding rules both small and large and feels comfortable lying (even though she's not really good at it yet) (and the fact that the bathroom is really inconvenient to have monopolized by her for this).

I know this depends a lot on parenting styles and "this child in this moment". I have my initial thoughts and inclinations, but before we take action I want to get more perspectives since this teenage creature seems to need careful handling and is a fully different being than I was dealing with this time last year. 

Please don't quote; I probably won't delete but I'd like to contain the personal info to one post in case I need to vague it up later.

[plaidpants]

Can you tell us more about the tech issue?

I feel like this isn't about books or reading, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on it.

[Annie G]

No advice on your real question, but I will say dh and our two youngest would have had a difficult time parting with books.  Is it possible she’s struggling with that? 

[2squared]

Why is she feeling the need to read in the bathroom? I think if you find her motivation and resolve that issue, then you will solve the misbehavior. 

My guess is she’s looking for privacy and space to do her own thing. Teens crave privacy and alone time. Does she have her space and time to just exist in that space?

ETA: is she feeling constricted by too much scheduling? Teens need unscheduled time. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by 2squared

[Moonhawk]

1 minute ago, plaidpants said:

Can you tell us more about the tech issue?

I feel like this isn't about books or reading, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on it.

She figured out how to get around the blocks on her laptop (ie, she figured out the admin password) and was watching youtube and going to sites that were definitely not approved. At first the stuff she was looking at was harmless enough but it progressed. She was doing this during school and free time and had gotten fast at the switch screen feature. 

[thewellerman]

My first reaction is the books might be a bigger expression of mentally working through moving. Also, why can't she read any book and then put it back?  I understand why not in the bathroom.  

With my kids, sneaking usually means I'm being too controlling and need to loosen up, or we need to have a heart to heart and get back on the same page.  I would be concerned that she wasn't communicating with me, and would want to figure out why.  

I wouldn't punish her.  

[KSera]

Does she have anywhere besides the bathroom where she can be alone in the house? Does she share a bedroom? I would be unhappy about the lying and would want to address that, but I also feel like she has some needs here that are unmet. If not for the fact that bathroom is shared, so can't be monopolized, this wouldn't be a thing whatsoever to me. I feel like it would be appropriate to make sure she has somewhere else she can go to just be by herself and read, though. Getting rid of the books as a reaction to that seems like it went the wrong direction to me. For me, with a thirteen year old, this would call for a heart to heart with what she's needing, what's caused her to seek out the bathroom for this, the importance of being able to rely on eachother for honesty, and how to move forward.

[prairiewindmomma]

I am hoping there’s more detail here because, to me, through my lens of parenting, the consequences seem overly harsh.

She’s 5 years from adulthood, mama, how do you see this transition going to having an adult who can manage her life—making her own appointments, running her household, managing her time between school/job/work? 
 

Short of trafficking herself on the internet, or running illegal drugs, I don’t know what would make me cut off the internet for five months to a teen. Nor can I imagine telling a teen they have a strict two hour allotment to read. 
 

I am not an overly permissive parent, but it seems like you are in a control battle with your teen and she’s trying desperately to carve out some space for her to be independent of you.

[kristin0713]

I *totally* understand having a no reading in the bathroom rule. It’s annoying. Other people need to use it and stuff needs to get done so no you cannot just sit in the bathroom and read. But I’m wondering about reading in general—am I understanding correctly that you give her two hours of free reading time a day? You guys are moving and packing so that’s why she can’t have extra books? Reading can be a stress relief and a healthy escape so I’m trying to understand if she has some time for that. 

[GoodGrief3]

I'm not totally clear on the issue. Is it that she is reading too long in the bathroom? Or reading too long in general? Or reading inappropriate books?

If it's the reading too long in the bathroom, my inclination is to say to mostly ignore it, with the caveat that if this truly is disrupting household flow, I'd be knocking on the door after ten minutes or so.

With some teens, you really do have to pick battles. This might be one of those times.

[Moonhawk]

3 minutes ago, Annie G said:

No advice on your real question, but I will say dh and our two youngest would have had a difficult time parting with books.  Is it possible she’s struggling with that? 

She got a Kindle for Christmas and a lot of books on there. We have trouble getting rid of books too, so I can understand that feeling, but we had some caveats of "this box can be opened, during hours, etc" to help alleviate that, I just didn't want to have to run through the entire rulebook here lol. 

3 minutes ago, 2squared said:

Why is she feeling the need to read in the bathroom? I think if you find her motivation and resolve that issue, then you will solve the misbehavior. 

My guess is she’s looking for privacy and space to do her own thing. Teens crave privacy and alone time. Does she have her space and time to just exist in that space?

It seems to get out of doing stuff she doesn't want to. IE dishes or school or cleanup. She does share a room with her brothers *at her request*, she has a room available to move to but has chosen not to, and we offer it periodically.

She has about 2 hours free time for a day; not much, but she was part of the schedule-making process and added things (more time for piano, another instrument, more time for art) so it's not like her day is full with stuff she doesn't have control over or she doesn't like. About 3 hours of her school time is all alone.

[katilac]

It sounds like the controls might be a little tight for a teen-ager. 

Why is it she can't have books? I'm not understanding that part. Is it just to neaten the house for better staging? I get that, that's important, but what does "More recently, after our clear out/ getting ready to move all books were boxed up, and the new rule is any books not in boxes and not for school are just sold." mean? Are the books in boxes that she can access, or are all non-school books supposed to be put away? Because I would never have survived that, at any age. 

Also, you mention her taking long breaks affects everyone's schooling. How 'locked in' to her siblings' school day is she? Can she have more freedom there? 

Does she have enough alone time? This could be tech-free alone time, but it's important. 

I see you have some kids who are a lot younger, so you have to be careful not to keep her slotted into the younger years. 

 

 

 

[catz]

I mean, I have never tried to micromanage a teenager's time this much.  If she's hiding in the bathroom to read, maybe she needs some more space and some more time to do what she wants?  Does she have her own space to escape? She's the oldest correct?  5 months no tech is a lot.  We did sometimes have tech breaks at those ages, but my kids also started to socialize a bit online at age 12/13 so I also was sensitive to taking that away.  We did keep tech in the main area of the house and we did use some blocking software for a while. 

Forcing a teen to get rid of books because she was reading seems overly punitive to me.  It doesn't sound to me like that is working.  Can you let her set up a box of books she can have access to and just make her responsible for that one box or something like that?

I do think when parenting teens you have to find ways to meet their needs and really try to have positive interactions with them on the regular or those teen years can just become years of butting heads and sets up for a tense and possibly non-existent young adult-parent relationship.  It helps to create a dialog so she feels she can come to you when she needs some time or space or has a question about something on the internet, etc.

Does she have social connections with kids her own age?  Does she have free time?  Does she do a lot for younger siblings?  Does she do outside activities?  I'd be looking for positive ways to engage her time and energies that she will enjoy.  Like she enjoys reading?  I'd easily add an hour of free reading of your her for one hour every afternoon in a hidden corner somewhere for a kid that age.  My kids and I would often read the same books and discuss at these ages, it was a great way to do a ton of lit actually.  We took turns picking.  

[Moonhawk]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am hoping there’s more detail here because, to me, through my lens of parenting, the consequences seem overly harsh.

She’s 5 years from adulthood, mama, how do you see this transition going to having an adult who can manage her life—making her own appointments, running her household, managing her time between school/job/work? 
 

Short of trafficking herself on the internet, or running illegal drugs, I don’t know what would make me cut off the internet for five months to a teen. Nor can I imagine telling a teen they have a strict two hour allotment to read. 
 

I am not an overly permissive parent, but it seems like you are in a control battle with your teen and she’s trying desperately to carve out some space for her to be independent of you.

There was an element of inappropriate messaging/grooming going on with the "definitely not approved sites". That's about as unvague as I'm comfortable with. I can't know the full extent because some of it was password protected but what I could see was alarming.

Re the 2 hour allotment, it's more she has 2 hours in her school day to read; not in her whole day. She has another 2 free hours in the evening she can choose what she does with (usually read or goof off with brothers).

[2squared]

3 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

She got a Kindle for Christmas and a lot of books on there. We have trouble getting rid of books too, so I can understand that feeling, but we had some caveats of "this box can be opened, during hours, etc" to help alleviate that, I just didn't want to have to run through the entire rulebook here lol. 

It seems to get out of doing stuff she doesn't want to. IE dishes or school or cleanup. She does share a room with her brothers *at her request*, she has a room available to move to but has chosen not to, and we offer it periodically.

She has about 2 hours free time for a day; not much, but she was part of the schedule-making process and added things (more time for piano, another instrument, more time for art) so it's not like her day is full with stuff she doesn't have control over or she doesn't like. About 3 hours of her school time is all alone.

School time is not alone time. Teens need chunks of time where they can just exist without anyone else’s schedule or expectations placed on them. 

Teens need to start having control over their lives. The rules and schedules start dropping, and they need to start making their own decisions. You need to allow room for failure. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

I would do just about anything to keep a young teen's trust / heart.  That trust is a treasure, and medicine to BOTH of your souls, especially in hard times. If there are rules / schedules she doesn't like, does she have an alternative suggestion? As long as she meets some mutually-agreed-upon baselines (1 shared bathroom so keep it quick, school work done to this particular time & quality standard, helping around house) - can she decide all the rest? 

[Moonhawk]

7 minutes ago, katilac said:

Why is it she can't have books? I'm not understanding that part. Is it just to neaten the house for better staging? I get that, that's important, but what does "More recently, after our clear out/ getting ready to move all books were boxed up, and the new rule is any books not in boxes and not for school are just sold." mean? Are the books in boxes that she can access, or are all non-school books supposed to be put away? Because I would never have survived that, at any age. 

Okay: the books. I'll just type it all out.

We have a TON of books. The house is effectively 800-900 sq ft. For kid fun books alone, we have currently 14 boxes now packed up. For books the kids wanted direct access to, the top 3 boxes of the stack were reserved for books they want to access while we are getting ready to move, I'd say a total of maybe 40-50 books free? (There is a 4th box that the 4yo can access on the ground that is just open all the time for her own books cuz it seemed like a bad idea to have her try and get out of the big stack, and she's in the play reading stage. about 20 books for her, maybe more idk). They got Kindles for Christmas and DD is specifically using hers a lot; I've loaded at least 100 books (and the Kindle isn't part of the tech ban). We have always had the problem of books not being put away at the end of the day, so I figured limiting the number free would at least make it easier to clean up.

"Selling books" consequence was to encourage the boxes getting completely filled and not re-opened again. Honestly I thought that the 3 open boxes on top would be enough that it wouldn't be an issue. I walk into the main room at the end of the day and say something like, "Oh no, I see books all over the couch, I hope they aren't here by the time I'm done brushing Katys' teeth, otherwise they'll have to go to the sell box." and the books are cleaned up. After we got the initial books sorted into sell/keep I didn't expect to actually sell any more books that were elected to keep. Mostly because I figured it would be easy enough for them to keep them in the appropriate times/places. 

There's never been a real consequence for reading in the bathroom before, just talking about why we don't want the bathroom monopolized for this.

Selling the books wasn't meant to be a punishment for reading in the bathroom, the two issues were completely separate.

[prairiewindmomma]

Based on the additional info, it sounds like she is seeking community (although in this case inappropriately), struggles with time management, and lies to avoid consequences. 

How much time does she have with kids her own age?

How could you hold her accountable to her workload in a non-punitive way? 
 

IME—the more punitive and controlling the parent, the lower the quality of relationship by the late teens… I would be looking for ways to positively bond, encourage rather than punish, and supporting rather than controlling….

Edited January 19, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[Terabith]

I think the two overarching goals that are important with teenagers are 1) learning to self regulate/ manage their own time/ attention/ decision making/ responsibilities/ lives, and 2) a relationship that is trusting and has willingness to tell you anything.  

Honestly, while I totally understand your consequence for misuse of the internet, that's not the approach I would take, since the absence of technology doesn't foster learning to use it appropriately.  But, you are wise, and if that's the consequence that you think makes sense, I trust you.  

Taking away and selling books for illicit reading just seems nuts and like it would promote MORE sneaking.  I would just say, "I'm removing this from the bathroom.  Put it back in the box when you're finished."  

But, honestly, by the time my kids were teenagers, punishments just didn't make sense anymore for our parenting goals.  

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

Okay: the books. I'll just type it all out.

We have a TON of books. The house is effectively 800-900 sq ft. For kid fun books alone, we have currently 14 boxes now packed up. For books the kids wanted direct access to, the top 3 boxes of the stack were reserved for books they want to access while we are getting ready to move, I'd say a total of maybe 40-50 books free? (There is a 4th box that the 4yo can access on the ground that is just open all the time for her own books cuz it seemed like a bad idea to have her try and get out of the big stack, and she's in the play reading stage. about 20 books for her, maybe more idk). They got Kindles for Christmas and DD is specifically using hers a lot; I've loaded at least 100 books (and the Kindle isn't part of the tech ban). We have always had the problem of books not being put away at the end of the day, so I figured limiting the number free would at least make it easier to clean up.

"Selling books" consequence was to encourage the boxes getting completely filled and not re-opened again. Honestly I thought that the 3 open boxes on top would be enough that it wouldn't be an issue. I walk into the main room at the end of the day and say something like, "Oh no, I see books all over the couch, I hope they aren't here by the time I'm done brushing Katys' teeth, otherwise they'll have to go to the sell box." and the books are cleaned up. After we got the initial books sorted into sell/keep I didn't expect to actually sell any more books that were elected to keep. Mostly because I figured it would be easy enough for them to keep them in the appropriate times/places. 

There's never been a real consequence for reading in the bathroom before, just talking about why we don't want the bathroom monopolized for this.

Selling the books wasn't meant to be a punishment for reading in the bathroom, the two issues were completely separate.

It sounds like you are lumping her in with younger siblings in terms of consequences. That seems wholly unfair, and likely to put the burden of cleanup on her rather than a 4 or 7 year old. Whoever got books out needs to put books back. 
 

Is there a general state of disorganization in the household that makes it likely adhd/executive functioning issues are in multiple household members?

 

[barnwife]

I might not be someone whose perspective you are interested, as it seems to me that your discipline is much harsher than I think ours would be. (Note: our oldest will be 12 soon, so we aren't quite to the teen years.)

I am having a hard time imagining a scenario which would involve one child's actions resulting in no technology for all kids, particularly for a long time like 5 months. Our younger kids would rebel about that! Also, I totally get that she crossed some lines, but in 5 years she will be an adult. I feel like at this stage our job is to help transition to that. Taking away technology seems counterproductive to me. I'd lean more toward supervised tech time rather than complete removal. 

As for the book, if I knew it was one people wanted to keep, I'd just put it away myself. It's just a book. I just wouldn't want to strain a relationship over a book. Maybe I'd ask everyone, "I just found this. Is it a keeper or should it go in the sell box?" I'd ask calmly and nonchalantly. And then I'd have a kid put it wherever it's going.

[Moonhawk]

6 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

I would do just about anything to keep a young teen's trust / heart.  That trust is a treasure, and medicine to BOTH of your souls, especially in hard times. If there are rules / schedules she doesn't like, does she have an alternative suggestion? As long as she meets some mutually-agreed-upon baselines (1 shared bathroom so keep it quick, school work done to this particular time & quality standard, helping around house) - can she decide all the rest? 

Schedule other than when she can do piano/violin is already at her request. The instruments are the only times that I dictate since other people need them. She filled in the rest of her schedule. I do type it out though, so I guess that's why I say I scheduled it? We added the 2 hours reading, but that was something that happened 2 years ago when we moved to this house and I was fully doing the schedule. It's still on her schedule.

Since then she's telling me when she'll do what, and I do have some standards (x time on math) and the rest is more assignment based now for her (this map, this science assignment). We have a school review on Saturday or Sunday where we go over assignments, for accountability, but since I started at work she does have more leeway/control on what she's actually doing. DH is home but is focused on keeping younger kids on target, not her. Hence why she could get into the tech issue.

I guess I'm not as concerned about her schedule being too controlling because she has so much say in it, and certainly more than she would at a B&M school. 

I feel like I'm getting a lot of feedback that 2 hours of reading a day isn't enough, and here I was thinking it was a generous amount of "scheduled,  this counts as school reading" time. I guess I should reevaluate. 

[Moonhawk]

4 minutes ago, barnwife said:

I might not be someone whose perspective you are interested, as it seems to me that your discipline is much harsher than I think ours would be. (Note: our oldest will be 12 soon, so we aren't quite to the teen years.)

I am having a hard time imagining a scenario which would involve one child's actions resulting in no technology for all kids, particularly for a long time like 5 months. Our younger kids would rebel about that! Also, I totally get that she crossed some lines, but in 5 years she will be an adult. I feel like at this stage our job is to help transition to that. Taking away technology seems counterproductive to me. I'd lean more toward supervised tech time rather than complete removal. 

As for the book, if I knew it was one people wanted to keep, I'd just put it away myself. It's just a book. I just wouldn't want to strain a relationship over a book. Maybe I'd ask everyone, "I just found this. Is it a keeper or should it go in the sell box?" I'd ask calmly and nonchalantly. And then I'd have a kid put it wherever it's going.

Well, the younger kids didn't care about the tech really so that's why we just decided across the board for simplicity; we didn't want her to have access to someone else's tech on the sly, and since we're not sure exactly how she started in terms of working around blocks, passwords, etc., at the time it was found we couldn't kid-proof all the tech. The boys, fwiw, haven't cared at all about the tech being gone. and DD4 wasn't using any tech besides movies on the weekend anyway, which we are still allowing.

 

[katilac]

29 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 It seems to get out of doing stuff she doesn't want to. IE dishes or school or cleanup.  

Why would spending a long time in the bathroom get her out of dishes or school or cleanup? All of those things should be waiting for her when she finally exits, lol. If she is sharing chores with sibs, then I'd go ahead and assign her individual ones. 

idk, I can't put my finger on my exact thoughts. I get the feeling you lump the kids together a lot. There's one stash of books for kids ranging from 7 to 13, and your range means 13-17 books per kid, which is miniscule in my world, lol. They have Kindles, yes, but that is a very different experience for many people. Plus you can't hide the Kindle in the clothes hamper, it would get too damp. Then, the oldest violates tech rules, and everyone is off of tech for 5 months? I don't understand that at all. Why should the other kids lose tech? 

What you said about the tech violation makes me think she is feeling disconnected to some extent; lonely or left out or misunderstood. All somewhat typical for tweens and teens, but not usually so much that it drives this behavior. 

I agree with those who said that 5 months is too long. I would probably have done two weeks of no tech, then a period closer to 5/6 months of close supervision and open monitoring. She has to learn to deal with tech safely, and you won't be in control of that for much longer. 

It's hard, but having teens is also great in many ways!

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

Well, the younger kids didn't care about the tech really so that's why we just decided across the board for simplicity; we didn't want her to have access to someone else's tech on the sly, and since we're not sure exactly how she started in terms of working around blocks, passwords, etc., at the time it was found we couldn't kid-proof all the tech. The boys, fwiw, haven't cared at all about the tech being gone. and DD4 wasn't using any tech besides movies on the weekend anyway, which we are still allowing.

 

That's very practical, for sure, but I would not have gone that route simply because I wouldn't want to present it that way. You broke the rule, you get the consequence. I probably would have wanted some tech to be 'sneak-able' on purpose (with a much shorter ban), because if she would sneak tech after just getting caught, I would feel the situation was potentially more serious than I first imagine. 

The latest book-sneaking makes me wonder if she's (subconsciously) not trying too hard to get away with it. The fun part about teens is that, while they need increasing amounts of freedom, they also need someone checking in with them regularly. With the lion's share of the school focus going to the younger kids, plus you guys moving, hmm, could she be feeling more stressed than she's saying? 

btw, I'm not saying you and dad don't check in with her a good deal, rather than teens are weird and their need for it can really wax and wane. 

At this point, I would just flat out ask her if something is going on. "There's been a lot going on; is there something you want to talk about or tell me about? Anything bothering you or making you sad? Even if you've broken some more rules, it's better to tell me and let me help you figure things out." If she says no, tell her it's an open offer to listen, and - this is important for some kids - tell her that she can write a note if she doesn't feel like talking. 

[Moonhawk]

4 minutes ago, katilac said:

Why would spending a long time in the bathroom get her out of dishes or school or cleanup? All of those things should be waiting for her when she finally exits, lol. If she is sharing chores with sibs, then I'd go ahead and assign her individual ones. 

idk, I can't put my finger on my exact thoughts. I get the feeling you lump the kids together a lot. There's one stash of books for kids ranging from 7 to 13, and your range means 13-17 books per kid, which is miniscule in my world, lol. They have Kindles, yes, but that is a very different experience for many people. Plus you can't hide the Kindle in the clothes hamper, it would get too damp. Then, the oldest violates tech rules, and everyone is off of tech for 5 months? I don't understand that at all. Why should the other kids lose tech? 

What you said about the tech violation makes me think she is feeling disconnected to some extent; lonely or left out or misunderstood. All somewhat typical for tweens and teens, but not usually so much that it drives this behavior. 

I agree with those who said that 5 months is too long. I would probably have done two weeks of no tech, then a period closer to 5/6 months of close supervision and open monitoring. She has to learn to deal with tech safely, and you won't be in control of that for much longer. 

It's hard, but having teens is also great in many ways!

Right now, she washes dishes, someone else dries. When she'd spend 1/2 hour in the bathroom, others are waiting for her to be able to do their own stuff. We tried the "if you really need to go to the bathroom, that's fine, but you may need to dry the dishes too because it's not fair to M to have to wait." Which she'd say okay to, but then she'd be up doing dishes at 9 or 9:30 PM, going slow (which it's her time, so it's not an issue as much as annoying) but the house, again, is small, so someone banging around in the kitchen keeps other people up. It's a trickle-around problem. 

We do lump the kids together a lot, that's true. Partly because we haven't had issues where they needed to be separated out before. So yeah, we are consciously evaluating what having a teenager means in our family.

DH and I agree with the 5 months, and we are planning on basically re-going over tech safety when it opens back up. We did a ton, a ton, of tech safety ages 10-12 (starting when she got her own laptop) but obviously it wasn't effective how we intended. We know she's only with us for a short time longer, and that she needs to start making her own decisions and learn how to control this stuff on her own.  We are trying to reevaluate now that she's older how we want to go forward, hence my post.

We're trying to balance "she's now a teen" with "she's still a 7th grader and in danger of serious harm."

[Moonhawk]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

That's very practical, for sure, but I would not have gone that route simply because I wouldn't want to present it that way. You broke the rule, you get the consequence. I probably would have wanted some tech to be 'sneak-able' on purpose (with a much shorter ban), because if she would sneak tech after just getting caught, I would feel the situation was potentially more serious than I first imagine. 

The latest book-sneaking makes me wonder if she's (subconsciously) not trying too hard to get away with it. The fun part about teens is that, while they need increasing amounts of freedom, they also need someone checking in with them regularly. With the lion's share of the school focus going to the younger kids, plus you guys moving, hmm, could she be feeling more stressed than she's saying? 

btw, I'm not saying you and dad don't check in with her a good deal, rather than teens are weird and their need for it can really wax and wane. 

At this point, I would just flat out ask her if something is going on. "There's been a lot going on; is there something you want to talk about or tell me about? Anything bothering you or making you sad? Even if you've broken some more rules, it's better to tell me and let me help you figure things out." If she says no, tell her it's an open offer to listen, and - this is important for some kids - tell her that she can write a note if she doesn't feel like talking. 

This is the tack we'd been taking for the last 5-6 months and honestly I feel like it didn't work. The feedback I'm taking away here is telling me I'm too controlling, though, so I think I need to figure out how I can give her the space that I was trying to give her, while making the consequences of her actually using the space less dangerous. And growing the space slowly.

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 DH and I agree with the 5 months, and we are planning on basically re-going over tech safety when it opens back up. We did a ton, a ton, of tech safety ages 10-12 (starting when she got her own laptop) but obviously it wasn't effective how we intended.  

You can lead a horse to water but you can't keep it from doing stupid things. 

1 minute ago, Moonhawk said:

This is the tack we'd been taking for the last 5-6 months and honestly I feel like it didn't work. The feedback I'm taking away here is telling me I'm too controlling, though, so I think I need to figure out how I can give her the space that I was trying to give her, while making the consequences of her actually using the space less dangerous. And growing the space slowly.

It's a high-wire, high-stakes balancing act. Good times. 

[thewellerman]

21 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

This is the tack we'd been taking for the last 5-6 months and honestly I feel like it didn't work. The feedback I'm taking away here is telling me I'm too controlling, though, so I think I need to figure out how I can give her the space that I was trying to give her, while making the consequences of her actually using the space less dangerous. And growing the space slowly.

I don't have an opinion on the tech limits. I also have a bunch of kids, and sometimes it is just easier to do something across the board because I have limits on what I can manage.  If the younger kids don't care, then whatever.  You only have 5 years, but you also have 5 years!  I'm on my 3rd middle schooler now, and they are like toddlers in so many ways.  Somewhere around 14, they seem to start to get it together again, and lots of things get easier.  Now is the time to establish healthy communication, and a lot of reassurance.  It pays huge dividends later. 

It was helpful to me to reframe my parenting to more of a roommate approach. Very few things are non negotiable, and almost all of those are common goals between parent and teen, so they can be managed without rules.  If she is expecting new rules or a rehashing of why there are rules, she might not be willing to open up.  Also, I've learned to read between the lines and see behaviors as immature communication.  I would prefer they it lay out for me, but that is a soft skill that comes with time and practice. 

So, how would you handle this if she were another adult living with you?  How would you speak to her and what would you say? 

[Ann.without.an.e]

First of all, entering the teen years with your first is difficult so ((hugs)). You will survive this. It isn't easy and often you do feel a little lost and have to reevaluate as you go. I'm definitely not a perfect parent, but my youngest is going on 13 and I have three young adults and somehow we made it there in one piece so I have some thoughts. 

1) Be honest with your dd about your lack of certainty on how to navigate her needs right now and allow her brainstorm with you. I think the need to be confident and have it all figured out just messes everyone up.  Real, honest convos that get to the heart of the kiddo can go a long way. Loving conversations that get to the heart of the matter is the only solution. Rules and lists and schedules might be a part of life, but adding to them doesn't help the heart of the matter. What is the heart issue here?  

2) I disagree with others who say that checking out in the bathroom isn't a big deal. It is inconvenient to the entire family and it is self-centered to check out during a time when you need her to be a team player. It also allows her to procrastinate with the things in life that need to be done (a strong tendency that comes along at this age). This is a heart issue. I had a kiddo who did this and it added to everyone's workload. Of course, you can just pick up the slack, but if you do it now then you will be doing it continuously and it will branch out to other areas of responsibility. I speak from the experience here. Maybe she needs more freedom at other times? Maybe there is something deeper here she is longing for or needs so but try not to allow her to get into a habit of pushing her responsibilities onto others because not caring when others have to pick up your workload will spillover into so many other areas of life in a negative way. I don't know that more rules is the answer though? I'm not sure tbh, I think I'd start with some heart to heart convos about how her actions are impacting others?

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

We know she's only with us for a short time longer, and that she needs to start making her own decisions and learn how to control this stuff on her own.  We are trying to reevaluate now that she's older how we want to go forward, hence my post.

We're trying to balance "she's now a teen" with "she's still a 7th grader and in danger of serious harm."

While I felt the book stuff seemed overly harsh and like she needs more time on her own, I did want to weigh in that I don't think you're necessarily completely off base with your heavy concerns about the tech stuff. Five months is a long time, but there's also a huge difference between a 7th grader and an adult, and five years still in the house is actually still a long time during which a lot of changes and maturity will happen. I have one that tech was very harmful for (well, also to some degree with a second, but the negative parts with that one didn't start until after 18, so that's not really relevant), and I certainly wish I could have prevented the things that did happen with the kid who got into negative online stuff earlier. I do still think that cultivating the relationship is also the best way to navigate the tech part of things. It is HARD though with the way some kids conduct themselves online. Very, very hard, so I commiserate. If it helps to hear, mine who had so much trouble with this and went through very hard times is much better off six years later. Still doesn't always make good decisions online, but is a young adult now and her computer and phone use is not something I have anything to do with (although I do pay the bills still).

[BusyMom5]

I'm going to separate out issues, bc I think you are linking them all together. 

1.  Chores and sneaking into the bathroom to put off work.  In my house, I have too many people to allow one person to knock us off schedule.   When I assign a chore, they are to do it right then, quickly and correctly.  If I assign you a shower time- thats when you take your shower.  If I say dishes are done from 7-7:30, then that's when they do dishes.  I consider my house a well-run machine,  and one lazy person can clog up my machine.  This issue is not about books, its about respecting everyone's time and doing her fair share.  Putting off one chore means something else gets pushed back,  too.  Not taking your shower at your assigned time means moving other shower times all around- and I get a cold shower!  The books are not the problem.  I'd start by explaining the consequences of her laziness and how it's affecting everyone in the family.   I'd talk about how parents must juggle so many things, and that at 13, she is expected to do her chores when they should be done.  How her putting them off is affecting her and the rest of the family.  Then I'd end with a new set of rules, and consequences she helps you set.  Dinner is at xxx, dishes should be done by 8:00.  

2.  Spare time- I know you said she helped make up her schedule,  but if it doesn't have enough free time for her, it may be time to adjust it.  Maybe do some things just 2x a week?  Her behavior says she wants more flexibility to read in her own space.

3.  Technology- ::::sigh::::  I know you set rules and she broke them.  Been there, done that.  More important than you making rules is making her see why what she did is dangerous.  Your rules need to become her rules.  I think its good to be very cautious at 13- read her cookies, only allow browsing in family areas, be involved in what she's looking at.  As she gets older, if there aren't issues, you can allow more freedom.  I'd take all tech for one month, then slowly let her earn time.  No personal devices, only a family shared computer.  I would make my DDs watch videos of catfishing, I would forward them all stories I came across where girls were targeted or ran away with gross old guys.  Good luck- keep the communication open.  This is a LONG and slow process, but both my teen girls are responsible internet users now.  Still got more to get through this phase-ugh!

4.  The move- sounds like this could possibly be causing anxiety, stress, etc.  Be kind to everyone.  Be open to her about the help you need from her.  

[maize]

@Moonhawkthe situation as you describe it doesn't read to me like a child who is trying to rebel. It reads to me like a kid who has needs that are not being met within the allowed structures and who is driven by those needs to go outside of the structures.

She likely doesn't understand herself why she isn't content working within the rules.

I spent a lot of time at that age hiding in the bathroom to read. We fortunately had more than one bathroom. The appeal was that I could lock the door and no-one would bother me. I needed breaks, away from people and away from expectations.

I still do. A few years ago I tried to put myself on internet restriction because I felt like the time I spent--mostly on this forum!--was being wasted. That lasted for about a week, and the experiment was very revealing. Without my forum breaks, I discovered that my stress would gradually rise throughout the day. My breaks, hiding in my room and checking in on forum conversations, were my pressure valve. 

That was a very helpful thing for me to recognize. Time is not in fact wasted if it is spent to maintain emotional regulation through a break from habitual pressures.

Your daughter may think she can keep a structured schedule through most of the day, may have the best of intentions of doing just that, but may be finding that her brain actually needs more breaks than are in the planned schedule. And in a small house with a bunch of family members and the expectation that she be on task most of the time--the bathroom is appealing as a legitimate and secluded place for a break.

If this were my daughter, I would let her know that I had found the book and that I realize she probably has a legitimate need she is trying to meet, and then brainstorm ways to meet her needs including a potential need for time to read a book alone to reset mentally and emotionally at intervals.

Edited January 19, 2022 by maize

[Ausmumof3]

It sounds like the book thing is a temporary thing because of the move. I’d be having a conversation about how you know it’s a total pain and you can’t wait to get back to being more relaxed about clutter but for now you really need things to stay neat. It’s only temporary and she should be able to understand that. If at all possible I’d have the boxed stuff packed away so it’s not easy to open. I wouldn’t sell books as punishment though I’d just ask for help.

I kind of get it with tech. When we had issues with one the others got scaled back as well - not because they had done anything wrong but because I realised I hadn’t done a good enough job of teaching and supervising and I didn’t want to make the same mistake twice.  I can imagine if you have recently changed to working outside of home more you might be feeling like this too, I know I do and worry that the kids are having too much tech because I don’t have enough time to keep an eye on things.  I would try to gradually reintroduce it though as soon as you can.

I don’t think having control over setting your own schedule is the same as having free time as weird as that might sound. I have EF issues and I will set myself unrealistic schedules to deal with them and then rebel against my own schedule by reading instead of doing stuff. I’d maybe try to encourage more of a routine than schedule approach.

[Bootsie]

If the issue is that she is not doing assigned chores when needed, I would focus on that rather than the fact that she is reading instead.  If she is supposed to wash dishes and she disappears, the washing dishes plus another chore (drying) can be waiting for her.  Or, if that isn't convenient for the rest of family, another person pitches in and washes dishes, but then she is assigned a chore to make up for this; if you wash the dishes for her, she needs to do the load of laundry you were going to do.  Or if a sibling washes dishes for her, she needs to do that sibling's chore of raking the yard.  I would try to frame everything in terms of what each person needs to do to pitch in to help the family and how that as she is older she needs to begin taking increased responsibility for doing that.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I’m 40 and I fully admit to still hiding in the bathroom with a book. We also have a small house, five people, more books than square feet, and one bathroom, so I get it.

 I’d try really hard to get down to the matter of what’s going on. If it’s really work avoidance, I’d just add on more chores, like the drying dishes; if it’s teenage rebellion, I’d probably ignore it; if it’s unmet needs I’d try to figure those out and meet them. 
I was a homeschooled teen who read for hours and hours a day.  I now realize I was lonely and used books to disassociate from my feelings, much as I use my phone now.  It’s not healthy, but I had no one that would have realized what was going on.  I don’t know if that might be happening, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. 

[Negin]

No words to offer, but I highly recommend this book. It was a lifesaver for us. Both of our kids are now young adults and, knock on wood, our relationships couldn't be better. 

[LMD]

I'm going against the grain a bit. I think your tech consequence is very wise. Very. I would double check other things too, the kindle, old phones/tablets, old devices a friend/grandparent might have given etc. 13 is still young and it sounds like she just doesn't have the impulse control to make good decisions, and internet stuff like you allude to is very seductive and goes down a bad road very quickly (btdt *sigh*). 

Re the books in the bathroom. It sounds like the issue is that she doesn't agree/understand the why of the rule. I'm sure you've explained it, it's just teenage brain not able to care about the big picture from parents point of view lol. Some things I might do: remove the hamper, check the hamper whenever I'm in there and remove any books to a spot in my room (aka, she has to come and ask you for it), call out after 10? 15? mins whenever she disappears into the bathroom (she probably just loses track of time), let her feel the consequence of procrastinating (maybe she misses a loved activity because she has to finish her school work).

One thing I *wish* I'd done when my dd was that age was start a standing mother/daughter only time. I wish I'd done more to hold her heart then, because believe me by 14/15/16 it's much harder...

[Carrie12345]

Teens are, indeed, nuts. Mine are nuts. *I* was nuts. Every single one I meet is nuts, in one way or another.

I love rules, routines, and clear expectations. My kids thrive better with those things, too. But I do find that consequences can be a tricky area.

What stood out to me most was your description of the tech removal not being seen as a big deal, and thoughts about it needing to be more harsh. To me, that says it’s unlikely to have an impact on future behavior, except maybe to be better at hiding things next time.
If it were me, I’d institute a shorter ban (in my house it might be a week, maybe two) with more in depth conversation about the dangers of the actions taken, my fears, and my responsibility to keep them safe, and then closer monitoring of restricted use, like at the table only, after school only, x amount of time only, or whatever can be reliably monitored. With a slow and steady loosening as trust is built.
As an example, my 11yo technically has “unrestricted access” to YouTube, but on the no-ads account linked to my television. He knows that we can see everything that’s been played. We don’t even have to go looking for it; it’s plainly visible when we open it for our own use. That doesn’t mean he’s never going to screw up. But, so far, the privilege of no-ad YouTube seems more important to him than risky behavior is.

For me, on my 4th teen with another to go, trust building (both ways) is the top priority.  And that process often involves breaking trust. But there HAS to be an avenue to rebuild it. At 13, 5 months is a loooong time to go without an opportunity to show they understand the need and the meaning of safe behavior and that they’re capable of handling the responsibilities.

A teen that knows consequences will be severe is more likely to hide things instead of asking for help. Honestly, more than one of my older kids has come to me with, “I wasn’t sure if I was going to tell you this, but…” Probably because, even though my punishing actions haven’t usually been all that harsh, my emotional reactions tend to be kinda big. And I’ve been working on that these past few years. So, even though they might hesitate, they ultimately know I’m here to help them without wildly disproportionate reactions. I wish I had reigned myself in earlier. My most… intense reaction… to a particular situation still has impact on that aspect with one young adult child today.

The book situation is less scary to me, but it does sound like it’s having a big impact on your daughter. I don’t know what your timeline for moving is, but books are one of the easiest categories to dump in boxes and go. If someone needs to resort to sneaking when it comes to books, I’m more inclined to think the restrictions are the problem, not the kid.

Now, using books to completely avoid school work is a separate issue. And I’m not going to speak to that, as a parent of kids who will use CHORES to avoid school work if necessary.  Of all things! Sometimes school work just blows, and I’m not good at arguing otherwise. 😉 

[TexasProud]

Ok, sounds like this is a very small house with a bunch of people in it, which as a teen I would have found very confining. Not that you can do much about that. As far as she won't stick to the schedule that she made, that may just be her temperament. It is mine and my daughters. I do much better with a list that I check off for the day and so did she. Today I may feel like tackling math first, tomorrow history.  She had to check off so many of them before lunch, then so many before dinner. I don't know. Reading isn't a big deal to me. If they get done what they need to.

And doing chores with siblings.  YUCK. I would give the teen her own chores that she is responsible for. Actually, I would do that with everyone. 

Internet is a whole other issue. So hard. Have no thoughts other than to say. It doesn't matter. You can put on the safeguards, but as you found, they can find their ways around them. Keep talking, but I honestly found no good solution.

But yeah, at age 13, you need to be letting go. By the time mine were seniors, they were doing dual credit and completely responsible for their academics. All three have thanked me many times for helping me get them ready for college. They also liked the way I parented in that I was really strict when they were young ( more strict than their friends), but so much more permissive when they were juniors and seniors than their friends. 

Take what works and what doesn't. Lack of space and detailed scheduling with larger families would have been really hard for my personality. I would have been as resentful as your daughter seems to be. But you may have to do that.  Internet, yes, big deal. Books were not a hill to climb, much less die on. 

[Katy]

Two hours of unscheduled time is too little for someone that age. It’s less time than public school kids in a lot of activities have, and they have a lot of busywork. Cut all practices and options in half. If she wants to go longer, she may do so in her own free time, but the schedule doesn’t work for her. Call it teen brain and change it.

Keep math and other subjects she avoids at the same length with the caveat that if she gets *all* the work done early with no mistakes she can take the rest of the time to go read (not in the bathroom). 

Make chore time more fun: while she’s hiding in the bathroom turn on fun dance music, play a game without her. Keep playing until dishes are done. Or swap and have her rinse & dry for a while. 

Remind her that public school kids can’t go hide in a bathroom whenever. They are expected to go in the 5 minutes between classes, which amounts to 2 minutes or less, even on your period. If they’re late they get detention after school.  I’d hide the book in the hamper under her pillow when she’s not looking with a note that says, “This is a more appropriate place to read. Stop hiding books in the hamper or the hamper will move to the laundry room.”

[EmilyGF]

With my teens, we make a time-based schedule so that we are realistic about what we can fit in, but then I allow them to manage their own time with a task-based checklist. My deal is that I don't nag, remind, or urge unless something isn't finished by dinner. And usually the "reward" of no reminders from mom is enough to get my kids to get everything done before dinner.

In my experience, teens who work based on a clock learn to procrastinate and pretend to work. If your daughter does "60 minutes of math", she has no incentive to work quickly. If she does "one math lesson," she learns she can read for twenty minutes if she works quickly. This approach has led to my two older kids being incredibly efficient workers. They both have schedules that are considered "too much" at their gifted high school, yet both have outside interests, hobbies, and work while getting to bed on time. 

If you have problems with a child evading chores, find ways to schedule that child for chores that are independent. With teens, I really like the "dinner helper" approach - one person helps one parent on 100% of the dinner cleanup (or making) one night per week. This is great because the teen gets focused training AND focused time. This provides the space for relationship to grow by adding built-in one-on-one time, important in larger families.

Emily

[amyx4]

I have lots of kids, so I understand schedules and space, etc. I also have mostly college aged and high schooled age in my house now. So, I understand the transition in parenting.

You didn't mention this, so I may be way, way off track. Feel free to ignore me. But does she have any outside activities? Something you drop her off and pick her up later?   I live in a place where my homeschooled teens could play sports at the high school. They get a break from me every day and they get some serious exercise.

You daughter is close to my son's age. I currently have a 12 year old. He has four different activities, four days a week, after school that each last 90 minutes. Half are drop offs. I'm getting him ready to be able to leave in the afternoons during high school. (I understand family finances, we've found some cheaper activities.)

 

[kristin0713]

My kids didn't even have their own tech at 13yo.  They had a computer that was exclusively for school and we had a shared family iPhone that they could use with permission to text or FaceTime friends and family. The phone stayed in the kitchen most of the time. I think firm limits for tech are important for teens, especially young teens. I don't think you are off base there at all. 

Re: the reading.  I have a voracious teenage reader who also is very attached to her books and her stuff in general. We have also been in moving transition for over a year. A lot of our stuff is in storage as we are living in my parents' house while our new house is being built. I totally get the issue with lots of stuff and books and needing to keep things away and organized. For the 13yo reader, however, I would allow her to keep the boxes of her books in her room or at least have free access to them and make sure that she has ample time to read. It is such a healthy and important activity especially with the transition that you guys are going through.  

No reading in the bathroom - yup. I'm totally with you on that. And using bathroom breaks to get out of chores is not cool. If she conveniently needs to take a long time in the bathroom during dinner clean up (which I totally agree derails the rest of the evening and drags it out) then give her other chores that she doesn't like and maybe she will suddenly be available again to do the dishes. She can clean the toilets, take out the garbage, whatever else that doesn't hold up the rest of the family. 

[Sneezyone]

13 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

I feel like I'm getting a lot of feedback that 2 hours of reading a day isn't enough, and here I was thinking it was a generous amount of "scheduled,  this counts as school reading" time. I guess I should reevaluate. 

That's just when the book starts getting interesting! I got busted every night for YEARS for having a lamp *UNDERNEATH* my covers reading into the wee hours. I still look back and find that crazy. I wouldn't have had to do that if they just let me read myself to sleep. Same with hiding. If you can designate a reading corner and shave off time elsewhere in the day for reading, do that. It does sound like the chore issue is separate (chronic, seems to me, at this age). I 1) try to differentiate between things that *must* be done immediately or in a timely way so that I can do other tasks (like emptying/loading the dishwasher) and tasks that only affect them (like waiting until the last minute to do laundry) and 2) allow them some flexibility in when non-emergent things happen. We don't have specific assigned chores tho, I just make the ask to whomever is close by/in my way/looking bored, lol.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Farrar]

Another vote that it really sounds like she does not have enough unscheduled time for herself. I definitely am on the more permissive end of parenting for this board, but I can respect that some families are stricter. I hope you can really hear that parents who are much stricter and much more permissive are both telling you that you are being overly controlling with her time and that she has needs you're not letting her meet. The structure where you do that is up to you and has to meet your needs and boundaries.

But... she's your first teenager. You need a paradigm shift. She's not a little kid anymore. I get that she's lost trust, but it sounds like she doesn't have any desire or hope for re-earning trust. She sounds resigned to meeting her needs herself in secret and demoralized. And the need is just some time to herself reading. Like, I get that she did something much worse online, but... you've got to give her some slack here. And you've got to give her some responsibilities. I would actually separate her responsibilities from the other kids. Give her some chores of her own as the oldest, as a teenager who is on her way to being an adult. Make them things that matter to the household but that nothing will fall apart if she screws it up - like, the house will not fall apart if no one does the weekly vacuuming. It needs to happen, but it will be a minor annoyance to you all. That sort of thing. And then let her figure it out. And the balance is that with her own chores, she also gets more of her own time. That's all super appropriate to growing up.

[Farrar]

I want to say what I'm thinking a bit more clearly.

Our impulse with teens is to take their responsibilities and freedoms when they transgress our boundaries. But I think adding responsibility is the only way to raise a successful teen. It doesn't mean you have to trust them with things that will mess up their lives or your household if they screw up (though eventually they will be so close to adulthood that you'll basically have to). But there are lots of ways to put real responsibility on them that has consequences that are manageable for everyone if they don't live up to it.

The number one thing we have to do is set kids up to succeed and not to fail. Adding impossible rules and taking away outlets sets kids up to fail - even if they "deserve" a punishment for breaking the rules. You have to find consequences that also allow them to build trust and find success.

[Soror]

I only read a few of the responses so maybe I missed some things....

The first kid, maybe 2 kids are the guinea pigs. It is ok to not know what you are doing. It is ok to change course. It can be difficult to transition into teenhood for them and for us because our role has to change. They need that practice with independence and setting their own values, limits etc as they go into adulthood. Of course for younger teens we start with the little things and let that grow as they get older. It is good to look for things they can have control over. It is like learning to drive, they are learning to take responsibility a bit at a time.

- re tech- I totally agree with limits and supervising but how is she communicating with her friends and peers? Where I live kids only communicate via electronics, there are no phone calls, so if I cut my kids off from all electronics for months that would cut off their ability to talk with their friends except for when they were seeing them in person (which at least here is still limited due to the pandemic and was already limited with being hs'ers). Maybe you have a solution that I missed.....but if not there needs to be brainstorming to figure out some way she can talk to friends that works for her and meets your requirements for supervision.

ITA agree with the others that her schedule is way to tight. I read a book about managing ADHD once and it made the point that it was important to only schedule/set up systems etc to the level you need. I'd schedule in the things you have to but leave the rest to her to do on her own. I'd split up the chores so no one is waiting on her and I'd give her a timeline - ie chores need to be finished by 2/before dinner/before freetime etc. My kids have to finish chores before free time. That gives them motivation with the least amount of nagging on my part. 

And I heartily agree with picking your battles. There are so very many worst things than her reading books. Teenagehood is a time of give and take.

[Katy]

The more I think about this the more I think I’d give her her own room. That way she can stay up reading until 11 pm if she wants, she’ll have space and time that is just hers that isn’t in the bathroom. If she’s going to miss the social aspect of talking at bedtime, have her go in there for 20-30 minutes at bedtime. If she wants to escape during school, have her do math first then do the rest with a checklist, in or out of her room at her discretion. I also put my kids chores on their checklists. 

[fairfarmhand]

There's been a lot of good things mentioned.

One thing I wanted to mention is that kids change SO FAST at these ages. So the fact that she has been offered repeatedly her own room but turns it down, may not be applicable TODAY. Or the fact that she said she wanted to spend time on art and practicing and stuff.

Things to help you talk this through with your dd:

"I see that you head to the bathroom to read. Are you needing time alone in a space that noone can bother you? Is that where this comes from?" (keep a posture of curiosity, not condemnation. In fact, it's quite likely that she hasn't thought it through herself. The trick is to get her to where she can think through where these impulses come from) She may actually say, "No, no." without thinking it through. She may actually need you to say, "You don't have to answer this right now. I know you are a good kid and you do want to follow the rules, so I'd love it if you can think through what is happening in these moments when you slip up." 

Good kids sometimes feel an obligation to those around them. She may actually want, at times, her own room but feel obligated to her siblings to not have her own space. Reassurance that the siblings will be fine without her if she needs space. And she may waffle. She may want the closeness of sibling relationships, but really need some space too. Both things can be true. (she may need you to say that out loud) In those cases, she is allowed to have her own room but sometimes sleep on a sleeping bag in their room if she wants. I have had three teen girls, They're now 24, 20 and 16. It was so helpful for me to articulate ideas that seemed conflicting to them. Stuff like, "Yeah of course you want your own room. And you might sometimes feel left out. Both can be true at the same time. We don't have to decided between them. We can address the privacy issue and you are allowed to SAY "I feel left out. Can I spend the night in the little kid room?" 

So for the scheduling stuff. She needs to hear that it is okay to reevaluate things. Just because she said she wanted to spend so many hours or minutes on practicing stuff in reality, in actuality, it doesn't seem that it is playing out that way. She is allowed to reevaluate that and she may need you to help walk her through the "What I think I want" vs "How does this work in MY LIFE." It's normal for all of us to make big plans (see also New Year's Resolutions) but actually putting things into practice is another matter entirely. 

For my girls, there were a few things that helped us stay in the discussion vs argument place. 

First, I reassured them that having conflicting ideas and not being able to commit to stuff was NORMAL. Everyone does this stuff. 

Second, a posture of curiosity vs. condemnation is SO important. Some kids are prickly so it's harder to navigate. But gentleness and reassurance was key.

Edited January 19, 2022 by fairfarmhand