Please help me word this

[freesia]

I agree with @Farrar  In the 90s I told my mom that I wasn't going to discuss politics with her again.  And I just stopped.  When she'd bring it up, I would just refuse (and even hung up on her a few times after saying, I told you I won't discuss politics with you.) She made comments over the years about "not being able to share her political views" and youth not being willing to discuss things anymore.  I just ignored it.  I think you may need to do the same thing. Why do you kids even know how you voted?  I keep my vote secret. 

[Farrar]

I'll add that it's possible that the daughters won't be able to drop it. But that's what the therapist is for. I refuse to believe the therapist would encourage you all to quibble about politics (no matter how core to anyone's ethics or beliefs) when it's hurting all of you this much and hopefully that would also include helping them draw some boundary lines and cut it out.

But also, if you're to understand how to not wade into politics, you will need to understand their viewpoint a little so you don't, say, end up trying to talk about the weather and finding yourselves in an angry debate about climate change.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Farrar

[Melissa Louise]

21 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

My daughter does this, too.

She also frequently says that I "don't understand" when she gets frustrated that I don't agree. She has not yet reached the stage at which she grasps that it is possible to understand what someone else is saying and simply hold a different opinion.

This is one of the many reasons I no longer argue (or, in fact, discuss anything substantive) with her. Our conversations tend to be very superficial, because any attempt to have a meaningful exchange of ideas ends in tears, accusations and some period of silent treatment.

This. 

I find it all very odd, because in my case, my parent literally beat me, but I am capable of respecting her as a person with ideas, feelings, opinions. Even when I disagree with her, I am quite mild in my response. 

But in my family, reading a Strike novel made me into the fash?

I always think it's very interesting how much is directed towards the mother.

I did ask ds once why he was so focused on me, and my opinions, and completely ignored his (far more conservative and unreconstructed father) and he said it was because he cared more about me. It was as if he thought I was on my way to hell and wanted to pull me back before it was too late. So in a weird way, it's a sign of attachment between child and mother. 

But yes, there are topics we don't discuss. It's not worth it.  Perhaps one day. But not today! If I want to talk 'issues' I talk to friends.

Ironically, it's me who is buying from Blak businesses, not ds. 

 

 

[mathnerd]

4 hours ago, Home'scool said:

It makes you wonder what stamp, if any,  you will leave on the world. 😞

Others have said a lot about how to respond to your daughters. But, I would like to say something about the quoted portion of your post: you should consider discussing this with your own counselor. This point, either consciously or subconsciously, seems to be a source of unhappiness and frustration towards your daughters for you. In my humble opinion, since you think that you did not screw up your kids and that you did your best, the status of your relationship as adults does not diminish your worth as a mom or as a human being. Your daughter is out of line if she is discussing her mother's political views with her boyfriend's mother and feeling defensive about your political likes and dislikes - it is fine if you can not meet someone who is indirectly connected to you due to who you voted for. Ask your daughters politely to stop discussing you with people who don't even know you. And ask them to please consider that you have your own fundamental rights to choose and live as you please just as they have the right to choose and live the lifestyle of their own choice - and if that means that you are discussing weather and shopping and recipes for years to come, so be it.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

It strikes me that the adult children are using politics to defend against their feelings of rage. The politics are a distraction

Or it could be the other way round. Maybe it's better in Australia, but here in the US, over the past years politics has given myriad reason for rage and despair, especially for young people. And it is entirely plausible that the feeling of anger and helplessness over yet another police shooting of an innocent black person, yet another school shooting, new facts about the capitol insurrection, bad news about climate change, or the refusal of a certain political party to even permit Covid mitigation measures make young people angry, and they are projecting onto their mother whom they see as a supporter, and thus representative, of that political side.
A scenario like this that does not even need divorce and dysfunction to create the conflict, with politics being the root cause, and the family dynamics the distraction.

Edited December 8, 2021 by regentrude

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Or it could be the other way round. Maybe it's better in Australia, but here in the US, over the past years politics has given myriad reason for rage and despair, especially for young people. And it is entirely plausible that the feeling of anger and helplessness over yet another police shooting of an innocent black person, yet another school shooting, new facts about the capitol insurrection, bad news about climate change, or the refusal of a certain political party to even permit Covid mitigation measures make young people angry, and they are projecting onto their mother whom they see as a supporter, and thus representative, of that political side.
A scenario like this that does not even need divorce and dysfunction to create the conflict, with politics being the root cause, and the family dynamics the distraction.

Idk. I share my children's politics, largely. I am the reason, really, they have the politics they do. And yet, the same denunciations played out in my home. 

Therapy is for deing with family dysfunctions. It isn't - or shouldn't - be used to prosecute political disagreements. 

[footballmom]

OP, I’m glad you have your own therapist and your children also have a therapist (and I hope that they feel it’s a good fit for them).  Are you and your child seeing your child’s therapist together? I agree you should prioritize seeing your own therapist right now and let your child know you are working on some things and you may be in a place for joint session in the future.  But not now.  And if you are seeing your child’s therapist together, see if your child is open to getting a referral to a therapist that doesn’t see either one of you solo.
 

This is not directed to you saying this is what you or your child is doing, but my mom had asked to go to therapy together when I first went low contact.  I agreed.  She was very disappointed when the therapist did not turn to me mid point in the first session and say that I was a bad girl and needed to get back in line.  She was not ready to hear and process my experience.  The second and third session she left early saying she was done.  When she asked to go the fourth time, I declined and said it was too hard for me to show up and be open hearted and have her storm out each time.  If she had seen her own therapist and worked on herself, that would have helped me feel like we could revisit things in the future.  I was working with my own therapist and working on myself, I wasn’t willing to be the only one doing work and continue to open myself up to her hoping for a different result.   

[BusyMom5]

A few more thats that you might want to ponder.. 

I think you've said in the past thaf your DH was a narcissist.   Do your girls have those tendencies?  I ask bc of your comment about wanting to make you buy only from black-owned businesses.   Sure, share a product from a black-owned business that you like,  but telling someone they are bad bx they don't buy from only black-owned businesses?  Over the top.  Did the therapist say anything about this?

 

There is a book I read a long time ago from Eckhart Tolle and in it he describes people who are constantly outraged and how really its a tiny child inside screaming for attention or something completely unrelated to what they are screaming about.  Since then,  in my life, I have found it to often be very true.  While its possible their "wokeness" is really the chasm between you,I think its equally plausible that its a way to provoke a reaction from you, and they are not yet ready to really get to the heart of their feelings about your divorce.  That is something the both need to work on in therapy.  Its also not your responsibility to fix.  

 

Finally,  were you a doormat during your marriage?  Was it okay for your husband to talk to you like this?  Did you constantly apologize for every little thing you did to offend?  If so, consider this may be a learned habit they have.  

 

I dont know the answers, these are just some questions I have considered based on your other posts.  I hope you can eventually build back a healthy relationship with your daughters and that one day they will look back and see you as a person who did her best with what was given to her ❤ 

 

[Farrar]

Therapy isn't for moderating a political debate. But it is for helping people figure out how to speak to each other when no one can get off the topic of politics or one party (and I genuinely don't know which party that is here) keeps using every thing as an excuse to rehash the same political arguments. If either Homes'cool or her dds head into therapy with the hopes that it will help the other party see that they're right politically, then that's way off. But if the goal is to learn to communicate without causing pain, then figuring out how to navigate (and hopefully navigate away from) a political debate is going to part of it. The personal is political on some level. If every food someone eats, media someone enjoys, job someone takes, etc. is an excuse for the other party to put in subtle (or overt) digs at their political leanings - or just to express bafflement about it that begins to seem disingenuous and a way to turn things back to politics again - then breaking that pattern is exactly what therapy is for.

I'm with others who are unsure who is actually sowing the political discord here - mom, daughters, or both. 

This board is always really clear that we should cut toxic relatives out of our lives. I'm not sure who is the toxic one here. 

Finally, I absolutely echo what @regentrude said about how many young people are exhausted with this stuff. They are the inheritors of a future that they see as incredibly bleak both politically and in terms of standard of living and resources. If their own mother can't at least acknowledge their worldview - even if she doesn't share it - that's rough because it's contributing to the world they see absolutely falling apart around them.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Farrar

[Melissa Louise]

Anyone interested in what therapy is for and what it isn't could do worse than following Jonathan Shedler on Twitter. 

Its pretty clear that in the family system OP is dealing with, there's a toxic absence. It's not irrelevant that Dad is not involved in this therapy. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Melissa Louise
Typo

[Frances]

9 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

This is pretty common now, unfortunately.  

Those of us who are old enough to remember the Cold War recognize it as cant and brainwashing similar to communist and fascist indoctrination.  I am not at all sure how to address it.  The rewriting of history and lack of regard for the truth are not particularly amenable to logic, conversation, or appeal to an underlying relationship.  The levels of demonization of the ‘other side’ are remarkable.

I think the rewriting of history and lack of regard for the truth is even more common right now among older people than the younger generation. A significant portion of our population believes the Big Lie about the last election, led by leaders who likely know it’s not true, but are more than willing to ride the wave to power. It’s the biggest threat to our democracy any of our young people in the US have ever faced. I don’t condone the way OPs daughters are treating her, not at all. But I can certainly understand their frustration if they thought their conservative mom had a certain set of values, but didn’t seem to vote them. Although I’m guessing that as others have noted, the overt anger over politics might really be a front for anger over other things, such as family issues.

I don’t think it’s uncommon for young adults to have different political (my son certainly does) and religious views (I very much differ from my parents) than their parents, and usually as long as both sides are respectful, it doesn’t have to lead to stress in the relationship or worse. But some issues transcend political parties and religion and are more fundamental. If disagreement arises around them, the relationship problems are likely to be much more serious.

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I think the rewriting of history and lack of regard for the truth is even more common right now among older people than the younger generation. A significant portion of our population believes the Big Lie about the last election, led by leaders who likely know it’s not true, but are more than willing to ride the wave to power. It’s the biggest threat to our democracy any of our young people in the US have ever faced. 

Shrug.  No, I don’t think so.  I’ve seen bigger threats to our democracy than a lie that literally no one I know believes.  And you don’t fix a lie by promulgating other ones.

[SKL]

Yeah I disagree that political differences are an acceptable excuse for disrespect and so on.  We are all entitled to our own opinions.  In addition, the daughters ought to recognize the value of the mom's decades of adult experience, but that may have to come later.

As far as Big Lies, there have been constant big lies on both sides.  It's sad and scary how the main information sources in the US have used their power to mislead and divide us.  All the more reason we need to actively look for common ground.  It's out there.

[Tanaqui]

This is not the first post you've made where I have gotten the distinct impression that you are not listening to your daughters. I'm not surprised that your therapy sessions are going in circles. When you're spending your time blaming your relationship problems on your daughters' politics and looking for ways to defend yourself, you're not listening. And you can't really get anywhere if you don't listen.

So call them up or send them a text - NOT a letter unless you normally communicate that way - and say that you love them, but you're not willing to discuss politics with them and you can't go to therapy with them for a while. You're happy to talk about other things, and you'll seek your own therapy, but that's that.

And then stick with it. Don't follow them on social media if they post a lot of political things, or ask them if they'd be willing to put that stuff under a filter. Don't talk politics. If they bring it up, say something bland like "I haven't thought about it, and I'd rather not talk about it until I know more" and then either read more or don't, but don't bring it up again.

And I gotta say that the people saying you're disrespectful for using the term "woke" are quite right. I don't know if you're saying this to your daughters, but you're saying this to a group of people you want to help you, and you must know many of us share your daughters' views. Don't do that. If you can't pretend to be respectful of their politics, don't discuss politics with them at all.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Tanaqui

[plansrme]

18 hours ago, Home'scool said:

Just general disdain for family. 

 

 

 

This is such a big thing right now in that generation, i.e., the thought that family is meaningless, I can make my own family, my friends are my family, etc. It's frightening how easily 20-somethings can cast off their families and how many of their friends will cheer them on for doing so.  So many YAs apparently do not feel a loss when they break up with their parents; it's like an entire generation has an attachment disorder. It is indeed baffling, but it is far more common than I would ever have thought. 

[Jenny in Florida]

6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

And I gotta say that the people saying you're disrespectful for using the term "woke" are quite right. I don't know if you're saying this to your daughters, but you're saying this to a group of people you want to help you, and you must know many of us share your daughters' views. Don't do that. If you can't pretend to be respectful of their politics, don't discuss politics with them at all.

Eh, I am pretty darned "woke" myself, and I wasn't at all offended by the term. I understood it to be shorthand used to quickly communicate a set of values (especially since the OP put the term in quotation marks). 

Also, I did not read in the original post anything suggesting that Homes'cool has ever set out to denigrate or disrespect her daughters' political views or, in fact, that she instigates conversations about the topic at all. She was describing things that her daughters have said about her in therapy. 

Maybe it's because I have been on the receiving end of similar accusations -- despite my own very liberal beliefs and values -- that I am not getting hung up on the details of what her daughters said and am, instead, focusing on the pain this strained relationship is causing Homes'cool. 

These are adults we're talking about. It's reasonable to expect that respect flows both ways.

[Jenny in Florida]

7 minutes ago, plansrme said:

This is such a big thing right now in that generation, i.e., the thought that family is meaningless, I can make my own family, my friends are my family, etc. It's frightening how easily 20-somethings can cast off their families and how many of their friends will cheer them on for doing so.  So many YAs apparently do not feel a loss when they break up with their parents; it's like an entire generation has an attachment disorder. It is indeed baffling, but it is far more common than I would ever have thought. 

The latest thing I did to upset my daughter was "not understanding" how important her friend group -- which she considers family -- is to her. I made the mistake of suggesting that she might be able to be happy for one of her friends who is establishing a solid, healthy romantic relationship rather than considering herself betrayed and abandoned because the friend may end up moving to another state to be with her partner (two or three years from now).

Those of you who remember anything about the situation with my own children and know that I am estranged from my family of origin may understand how hurtful and infuriating it was to have her tell me I clearly didn't get how devastating it was for her to be facing the break-up of her family unit.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[OH_Homeschooler]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

This is not the first post you've made where I have gotten the distinct impression that you are not listening to your daughters. I'm not surprised that your therapy sessions are going in circles. When you're spending your time blaming your relationship problems on your daughters' politics and looking for ways to defend yourself, you're not listening. And you can't really get anywhere if you don't listen.

Thank you for posting this. I started a post last night saying something similar. I feel like these posts are a broken record. I know OP was upset by people's responses when she was looking for validation previously. 

I have recently gone no contact with my mother. I didn't do this lightly. I did it after years of being upset by her dismissive attitude toward me. Her last message to me was extremely insulting and hurtful (she made plans in her head to come visit, and she didn't like that I already had plans that weekend; hence, I deserved to be punished). I think she expected compliance as a result of her message, but it was the straw that broke our relationship. (And I would add, we actually agree on politics. It was the cumulative weight of my concerns being dismissed while hers always took center stage that did it). 

I sense a lot of missing missing reasons in your post, OP. I urge you to seek your own counseling before your own daughters go no contact with you. Because as long as you keep dismissing their concerns as woke-ism and don't even pretend they could be legit, you are coming closer to that day. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by OH_Homeschooler

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, plansrme said:

This is such a big thing right now in that generation, i.e., the thought that family is meaningless, I can make my own family, my friends are my family, etc. It's frightening how easily 20-somethings can cast off their families and how many of their friends will cheer them on for doing so.  So many YAs apparently do not feel a loss when they break up with their parents; it's like an entire generation has an attachment disorder. It is indeed baffling, but it is far more common than I would ever have thought. 

Yes, I can only imagine how much it's going to hurt them when they realize they actually need their mom.

I'm 55 and I still need my mom.  (And my dad.)

[MEmama]

8 minutes ago, plansrme said:

This is such a big thing right now in that generation, i.e., the thought that family is meaningless, I can make my own family, my friends are my family, etc. It's frightening how easily 20-somethings can cast off their families and how many of their friends will cheer them on for doing so.  So many YAs apparently do not feel a loss when they break up with their parents; it's like an entire generation has an attachment disorder. It is indeed baffling, but it is far more common than I would ever have thought. 

It’s not generational at all. It might not be your personal experience but it’s definitely not “kids these days”. 
 

Some people grow up in toxic or unhealthy family situations. Why on earth should they not seek out healthier dynamics? My parents are largely dismissive of me, they have torn me down and belittled me my entire life. I wish I had heard the messaging when I was younger that I didn’t have to put up with it, but largely it didn’t exist then. I’m glad that we are moving on from the narrative that blood ties are more important than anything else, regardless of treatment or lack of respect. Parents don’t get a free pass to belittle their children without consequences. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

6 minutes ago, MEmama said:

It’s not generational at all. It might not be your personal experience but it’s definitely not “kids these days”. 
 

Some people grow up in toxic or unhealthy family situations. Why on earth should they not seek out healthier dynamics? My parents are largely dismissive of me, they have torn me down and belittled me my entire life. I wish I had heard the messaging when I was younger that I didn’t have to put up with it, but largely it didn’t exist then. I’m glad that we are moving on from the narrative that blood ties are more important than anything else, regardless of treatment or lack of respect. Parents don’t get a free pass to belittle their children without consequences. 

Yeah, as flattering as it is to think I'm a millenial, I'm pushing 50. In my case, I think it is wisdom that helped me see that I needed space from my toxic mother, not a sense that family is meaningless. And while I know this was best for me, it's not like I walk around in a blissful daze about this decision. It still tears me apart. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by OH_Homeschooler

[plansrme]

9 minutes ago, MEmama said:

It’s not generational at all. It might not be your personal experience but it’s definitely not “kids these days”. 
 

Some people grow up in toxic or unhealthy family situations. Why on earth should they not seek out healthier dynamics? My parents are largely dismissive of me, they have torn me down and belittled me my entire life. I wish I had heard the messaging when I was younger that I didn’t have to put up with it, but largely it didn’t exist then. I’m glad that we are moving on from the narrative that blood ties are more important than anything else, regardless of treatment or lack of respect. Parents don’t get a free pass to belittle their children without consequences. 

No one on here is saying blood ties should be honored over everything else, but there is a distinct trend in the younger generation to see no value in actual family relationships. 

[Home'scool]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to post and help. I'll try to clarify some points although it is hard to cover everything.

This behavior from the girls has ramped up over the last few years or so. When I was first divorced we moved in with my sister (in-law set up) and we were, for the most part, very happy. My sister did everything she could to make us feel that it was "our" home. They even started calling her Mama-Auntie. They were extremely close to their cousins, my sister's sons. They called themselves "The Cousin Coalition" 

There were some flare ups - one time my daughter had plans to go away for the weekend but her car was in the shop. She wanted me to call in sick to work on Friday so she could take the car. When I said I couldn't because I work in a small office and needed to be there, she flipped out on me. A lot of that behavior came from me taking my eye off the goals during their high school years. I was too beaten down by my Ex to take on someone else who disagreed with me. When they would act up I did not take them to task for it and now it was coming back in spades. I have acknowledged this time and that I did not step up, that I was not a strong mother during those times.

When they moved out (and moved in together) things really ramped up. It just slowly got worse. When they started posting anti-police stuff on Facebook my sister felt very disrespected. Her son had just become a police officer during a terrible time to be to be a police officer. Their rhetoric did not help. We asked them not to post such stuff but they did it anyways.

As far as my "white privilege".... I'm not blind to the concept. But don't assume that because I am white, I am racist. I also am very supportive of my daughter coming out as bi-sexual. I am willing to talk about all issues. But they are so disrespectful. 

So, after many many family sessions and a few session with their individual therapists, we have gotten NOWHERE. They keep bringing up the same hurts. I get that they are hurt, but I have apologized. I have acknowledged. I have confirmed where I let them down. But I am not racist, I did not raise them to be racist. But EVERYTHING is my fault. I pushed too much, or I wasn't there to push, or I didn't stay long enough when I came to visit, or .......... endless.

They love to tell me that ALL their friends have WONDERFUL relationships with their parents. How everything is just picture perfect with everyone else. That hurts.

And they have a loving family and a welcoming home to come to with whatever lifestyle they want, but I deserve to live my lifestyle too. I once told my youngest that she was throwing away happiness with both hands. We have such an opportunity to rebuild a new life without my EX being such an ass to everyone (they currently have not contact with him ... he isn't willing to put the time in or apologize for anything) but they just keep fighting it.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Home'scool

[Scarlett]

40 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Eh, I am pretty darned "woke" myself, and I wasn't at all offended by the term. I understood it to be shorthand used to quickly communicate a set of values (especially since the OP put the term in quotation marks). 

Also, I did not read in the original post anything suggesting that Homes'cool has ever set out to denigrate or disrespect her daughters' political views or, in fact, that she instigates conversations about the topic at all. She was describing things that her daughters have said about her in therapy. 

Maybe it's because I have been on the receiving end of similar accusations -- despite my own very liberal beliefs and values -- that I am not getting hung up on the details of what her daughters said and am, instead, focusing on the pain this strained relationship is causing Homes'cool. 

These are adults we're talking about. It's reasonable to expect that respect flows both ways.

I read it the same as you.  

[Corraleno]

40 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

And they have a loving family and a welcoming home to come to with whatever lifestyle they want, but I deserve to live my lifestyle too. I once told my youngest that she was throwing away happiness with both hands. We have such an opportunity to rebuild a new life with my EX being such an ass to everyone (they currently have not contact with him ... he isn't willing to put the time in or apologize for anything) but they just keep fighting it.

What does the bolded mean? What was she doing that you felt was "throwing away happiness with both hands"?

[Selkie]

37 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

Thank you to everyone who took the time to post and help. I'll try to clarify some points although it is hard to cover everything.

This behavior from the girls has ramped up over the last few years or so. When I was first divorced we moved in with my sister (in-law set up) and we were, for the most part, very happy. My sister did everything she could to make us feel that it was "our" home. They even started calling her Mama-Auntie. They were extremely close to their cousins, my sister's sons. They called themselves "The Cousin Coalition" 

There were some flare ups - one time my daughter had plans to go away for the weekend but her car was in the shop. She wanted me to call in sick to work on Friday so she could take the car. When I said I couldn't because I work in a small office and needed to be there, she flipped out on me. A lot of that behavior came from me taking my eye off the goals during their high school years. I was too beaten down by my Ex to take on someone else who disagreed with me. When they would act up I did not take them to task for it and now it was coming back in spades. I have acknowledged this time and that I did not step up, that I was not a strong mother during those times.

When they moved out (and moved in together) things really ramped up. It just slowly got worse. When they started posting anti-police stuff on Facebook my sister felt very disrespected. Her son had just become a police officer during a terrible time to be to be a police officer. Their rhetoric did not help. We asked them not to post such stuff but they did it anyways.

As far as my "white privilege".... I'm not blind to the concept. But don't assume that because I am white, I am racist. I also am very supportive of my daughter coming out as bi-sexual. I am willing to talk about all issues. But they are so disrespectful. 

So, after many many family sessions and a few session with their individual therapists, we have gotten NOWHERE. They keep bringing up the same hurts. I get that they are hurt, but I have apologized. I have acknowledged. I have confirmed where I let them down. But I am not racist, I did not raise them to be racist. But EVERYTHING is my fault. I pushed too much, or I wasn't there to push, or I didn't stay long enough when I came to visit, or .......... endless.

They love to tell me that ALL their friends have WONDERFUL relationships with their parents. How everything is just picture perfect with everyone else. That hurts.

And they have a loving family and a welcoming home to come to with whatever lifestyle they want, but I deserve to live my lifestyle too. I once told my youngest that she was throwing away happiness with both hands. We have such an opportunity to rebuild a new life without my EX being such an ass to everyone (they currently have not contact with him ... he isn't willing to put the time in or apologize for anything) but they just keep fighting it.

Sounds like your dds have the same narcissistic traits as your ex dh and are using you as their punching bag, just like dear old dad. 

This same exact dynamic is present in my narcissistic BIL’s family, minus the divorce. The kids grew up seeing dad bully mom, and now two of the three of them abuse her that way, too.

I’m so sorry for the heartache.😞

[Home'scool]

9 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

What does the bolded mean? What was she doing that you felt was "throwing away happiness with both hands"?

It was an expression my grandfather used to say. It means that you are the one making the happiness go away, that it is right there for you but you are making every effort to get rid of happiness.

[Pam in CT]

re missing missing reasons

1 hour ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

...I sense a lot of missing missing reasons in your post, OP. I urge you to seek your own counseling before your own daughters go no contact with you. Because as long as you keep dismissing their concerns as woke-ism and don't even pretend they could be legit, you are coming closer to that day. 

Wow, thanks for posting this.

Particularly struck by this morsel

Quote

..The first viewpoint, "emotion creates reality," is truth for a great many people. Not a healthy truth, not a truth that promotes good relationships, but a deep, lived truth nonetheless. It's seductive. It means that whatever you're feeling is just and right, that you're never in the wrong unless you feel you're in the wrong. For people whose self-image is so battered and fragile that they can't bear anything but validation, often it feels like the only way they can face the world.

I'm afraid I've been on both sides of this truth.

 

[Jenny in Florida]

48 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

They keep bringing up the same hurts. I get that they are hurt, but I have apologized. I have acknowledged. I have confirmed where I let them down. But I am not racist, I did not raise them to be racist. But EVERYTHING is my fault. I pushed too much, or I wasn't there to push, or I didn't stay long enough when I came to visit, or .......... endless.

The thing about these kinds of accusations, too, is that it's impossible to respond to them without sounding, well, defensive. It's a little like the old "joke" about the lawyer who asks the witness "When did you stop beating your wife?" There's no way to answer the question directly without admitting to something (or sounding like you are). Even having to say, "I'm not a racist" makes many people think you probably are. And anything you say in your own defense or to refute the accusation too often comes across as desperate or disingenuous. 

It's nearly impossible to "prove" a negative, so the accusation tends to stick. (I see it happening right here in this very thread.)

I'm truly sorry. It's an impossible situation to be in. 

[LinRTX]

58 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

A lot of that behavior came from me taking my eye off the goals during their high school years. I was too beaten down by my Ex to take on someone else who disagreed with me. When they would act up I did not take them to task for it and now it was coming back in spades. I have acknowledged this time and that I did not step up, that I was not a strong mother during those times.

I just want to respond to this. Not only are you a mother, you are a person also. And sometimes the energy to be a mother is hard. It sounds like your daughters were in high school when the divorce was happening. They were almost adults. And right now they are just acting on hert feelings and blaming you for them. You are NOT responsible for these feelings.

 

And as personal story. My youngest had just had her 17th birthday and was finishing her junior year at college when my oldest (and only son) was found dead in his apartment in another state. I was not the best parent to her that year. My hurt ran deep. And so did hers. She ended up suffering from anorexia, and dropping her weight to just 83 pounds. A better mother would have noticed; I did not. Almost 5 years later and she is eating, but her digestive system is majorly messed up. I blame myself for not noticing. BUT my 22 (almost) year old adult does not. She realizes I was doing the best I could to put one foot in front of the other at the time.

All this to say your daughters are adults. For them to blame you for all that is wrong in their lives is not acting like adults. They start from where they are and go forward. All of us can look back and and can see where we did something wrong or maybe could have handled something better. That is just life.

[WildflowerMom]

They’re taking all their anger out on you instead of the ass who deserves it.    They need to continue in therapy, but they really need to focus on their father.   He is the issue.  You were his punching bag, now you are theirs.  I’m fact, if it were my son, I’d tell him exactly that— “son, I’m tired of having a target on my back.  I’ve lived my whole married life with one and I’m tired. I need to step back for a while”.    Obviously, ds and I have a different relationship so that may not work for y’all, but it is what I would do with my own kid.    I would not do therapy with them for a long time, at least until they’ve really started focusing on him.   I would unfollow them on SM and tell sister to, as well.    Set boundaries.   Absolutely NO politics of any kind.    They don’t need to know how you feel about xyz and you don’t need to know how they feel about xyz.    Keep it light and frankly superficial for a while until y’all all start to heal from dh.   
just my 2 cents.  

[Farrar]

I think this totally goes both ways. If older folks are dismissive of the concerns and boundaries of young folks, that's ALSO a way of showing they don't see real value in family. They only see value in as much as they're in control of the parameters. 

[Frances]

9 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Shrug.  No, I don’t think so.  I’ve seen bigger threats to our democracy than a lie that literally no one I know believes.  And you don’t fix a lie by promulgating other ones.

You may not know anyone who believes it, but polling shows a very different story. And maybe you can shrug it off, but since free and fair elections are a cornerstone of our democracy, I can’t. The lie is being used as the rational for attacking and weakening our election system and led to a violent attack on our Capitol. And while you may have seen bigger threats to our democracy in your lifetime, I don’t believe young adults like the OPs daughters have.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/january-6-insurrection-trump-coup-2024-election/620843/

I do agree with you that you don’t fix a lie by promulgating others. But when intelligent, well intentioned people can’t or won’t see the consequences of their votes, it can lead to severe stress on relationships. And I speak as someone whose young adult child’s political affiliation is different than mine, so we often disagree (respectfully) about politics. But fortunately he’s a student of history and has a line in the sand, so we do agree on the threat to our democracy posed by the Big Lie. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Home'scool said:

When they moved out (and moved in together) things really ramped up. It just slowly got worse. When they started posting anti-police stuff on Facebook my sister felt very disrespected. Her son had just become a police officer during a terrible time to be to be a police officer. Their rhetoric did not help. We asked them not to post such stuff but they did it anyways.

As far as my "white privilege".... I'm not blind to the concept. But don't assume that because I am white, I am racist. I also am very supportive of my daughter coming out as bi-sexual. I am willing to talk about all issues. But they are so disrespectful. 

Having a political position about the police is not a personal attack on individual LEO's. If you, your sister, or the cousin feel it is, that's on each of YOU, not on them. You can't expect them to moderate their positions for you. You are all grown ups in charge of your own social media posts and consumption. If you get upset looking at their viewpoints, then it's YOUR job to back off and hide them. You are in charge of your emotional response - not them. It's not appropriate to ask your adult children to not publicly express their viewpoints. Your actions are deeply boundary crossing here.

As for privilege and racism, acknowledging that one has privilege in how one is treated by society is not the same thing as owning up to active, racist actions. And I suspect you know that. But you're conflating the two here in ways that are going to be supremely unhelpful in a conversation. And you're referring to them as disrespectful for expressing their views when you ask about them and continue to try and engage over it. Your willingness to discuss (or maybe argue) the issue is not the problem. It's that you're deaf to their distinctions, language, and concerns. So stop talking about it. You're just stirring the pot. Being "open" to continuing to tell them how wrong they are (or hearing from them how wrong you are!) is not helping your relationship.

[Frances]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

As far as Big Lies, there have been constant big lies on both sides.  It's sad and scary how the main information sources in the US have used their power to mislead and divide us.  All the more reason we need to actively look for common ground.  It's out there.

Yes, certainly we could all find common ground by agreeing that the 2020 presidential election was not stolen. And realizing the serious threat to our democracy that the continued promulgation of the lie poses. I absolutely agree that many information sources, especially social media, seek to divide us. It makes seeking the truth and standing up for it and fighting back against lies, misinformation, and conspiracy theories more important than ever. Downplaying their threat, shrugging them off, and perpetuating false equivalencies just keeps them alive and dividing.

[Scarlett]

48 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

The thing about these kinds of accusations, too, is that it's impossible to respond to them without sounding, well, defensive. It's a little like the old "joke" about the lawyer who asks the witness "When did you stop beating your wife?" There's no way to answer the question directly without admitting to something (or sounding like you are). Even having to say, "I'm not a racist" makes many people think you probably are. And anything you say in your own defense or to refute the accusation too often comes across as desperate or disingenuous. 

It's nearly impossible to "prove" a negative, so the accusation tends to stick. (I see it happening right here in this very thread.)

I'm truly sorry. It's an impossible situation to be in. 

Yes I have seen this play out in my own young adult child's view.  I asked him if it was possible that his perspective was off.  

Honestly I think space and time is the only thing that can heal this type of stuff.

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

Thank you for posting this. I started a post last night saying something similar. I feel like these posts are a broken record. I know OP was upset by people's responses when she was looking for validation previously. 

I have recently gone no contact with my mother. I didn't do this lightly. I did it after years of being upset by her dismissive attitude toward me. Her last message to me was extremely insulting and hurtful (she made plans in her head to come visit, and she didn't like that I already had plans that weekend; hence, I deserved to be punished). I think she expected compliance as a result of her message, but it was the straw that broke our relationship. (And I would add, we actually agree on politics. It was the cumulative weight of my concerns being dismissed while hers always took center stage that did it). 

I sense a lot of missing missing reasons in your post, OP. I urge you to seek your own counseling before your own daughters go no contact with you. Because as long as you keep dismissing their concerns as woke-ism and don't even pretend they could be legit, you are coming closer to that day. 

Thank you for that link, I thoroughly enjoyed it and really got a lot out of it. 

[Carol in Cal.]

22 minutes ago, Frances said:

You may not know anyone who believes it, but polling shows a very different story. And maybe you can shrug it off, but since free and fair elections are a cornerstone of our democracy, I can’t. The lie is being used as the rational for attacking and weakening our election system and led to a violent attack on our Capitol. And while you may have seen bigger threats to our democracy in your lifetime, I don’t believe young adults like the OPs daughters have.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/january-6-insurrection-trump-coup-2024-election/620843/

I do agree with you that you don’t fix a lie by promulgating others. But when intelligent, well intentioned people can’t or won’t see the consequences of their votes, it can lead to severe stress on relationships. And I speak as someone whose young adult child’s political affiliation is different than mine, so we often disagree (respectfully) about politics. But fortunately he’s a student of history and has a line in the sand, so we do agree on the threat to our democracy posed by the Big Lie. 

I believe that the election was called in accord with the votes, but obviously there were more opportunities for fraud than usual because of the more extensive mail balloting and the change in the timing criteria for when votes had to be in.  I don’t believe that those changed the outcome, but I think that they fly in the face of people’s confidence in free and fair elections.  If you’re really concerned about people’s beliefs in free and fair elections you have to be concerned with those things even if you believe that the elections are called properly.  

Undermining trust is not wrong if undermining trustworthiness is going on.  The way to fix trust issues starts with BEING TRUSTWORTHY.  Being untrustworthy is the first attack and weakening factor for our election system, and needs to be addressed with the same fervor as the ‘stop the steal’ untruths—otherwise the issue is whose ox is being gored rather than the principle being espoused.  

[Tanaqui]

I've seen some people claiming this "trend" of estrangement for nigh on two decades now.

But the actual trend? Haven't seen it. In my experience, people of all ages who end up limiting contact with their families of origin are deeply troubled by the necessity, take a long time to come around to it, and often make multiple efforts to reopen contact even when it's obviously ill-advised.

To be honest, I give a serious side-eye to anybody who claims there IS such a trend, because a lot of the people making that claim have a vested interest in believing that this trend exists. It's surely easier to think your children are faddish and cut you off because they're silly children (but they'll regret it later when they realize they do need you after all) than to think that these are the just consequences of your own actions.

Of course, I have a family history of estrangement on both sides. My maternal grandmother was never allowed to even meet her own mother's parents. She walked by their house every day to get to school, never spoke to them. I know that this is because those people badly abused their daughter throughout childhood and into adulthood - but the ultimate severing didn't come until well after their daughter, my great-grandmother, had left their home. She tried for a long time, despite their ongoing pattern of abuse, to have a relationship with the people who hurt her.

I don't know how those people explained this to their neighbors, or to themselves. They certainly didn't say "Yes, yes, we abused our daughter and then we used to bully our toddler grandson in revenge whenever we were mad at her for trying to enforce a perfectly reasonable boundary". Maybe they said she was a silly child who would one day realize she needed her mother and father. She wasn't, and she didn't.

 

My father limited contact with his mother. He didn't cut her off entirely, because my mother wouldn't let him, but he probably should have. My god, the woman tried to trick my parents into handing over custody so that she could break apart the marriage. She admitted this.

 

And when asked why her son didn't call much, didn't write, maybe she said it was his mean old wife, and he was a silly child who one day would realize he needed his mother. But he wasn't, and he didn't. She was toxic. That's just it.

 

Now, sure, sometimes the kids initiate estrangement and a reasonable observer would conclude that they are the ones in the wrong. It happens. Absolutely.

 

But... it's not a trend. Nearly all people who limit or eliminate contact with their parents (or their children) have a perfectly good reason for it.

 

And if you're invested in this idea that it IS a trend, you might want to take a good long look at yourself.

[1234]

You really need to step away from their social media and absolutely need to stop telling them what they should and shouldn’t post. If you can’t stop taking it all so personally then you need to unfriend/unfollow.

My mom and I are on complete opposite ends of the political spectrum but neither of us tell the other to stop posting things. Each of us has probably offended the other but we’re adults and learn to ignore those things for the most part. My Dh unfollowed my mom on social media because it was too much. It bothered my mom at first but after I explained and after she had time to digest all is well.

Honestly, my mom and I didn’t speak for several months due to things with my dc and we’ve just recently come back together so we’re still a work in progress. But we absolutely don’t police each other’s social media. 
 

 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Home'scool said:

 When they started posting anti-police stuff on Facebook my sister felt very disrespected. Her son had just become a police officer during a terrible time to be to be a police officer. Their rhetoric did not help. We asked them not to post such stuff but they did it anyways.

Pointing out that police brutality and police killings of unarmed black persons are unacceptable and that police as an institution is riddled with problems does not constitute a personal attack on an individual in the police force. I would assume any diligent, upstanding police officer is horrified at the behavior of some of their fellow officers and would be the first to condemn it.
For your DDs, being asked not to post about a problem they feel passionate about probably comes across as you being dismissive of their view that this is a grave societal issue in desperate need of a solution. 
Your sister has the choice not to follow their social media, or not to take the posts personally.
Telling adults what they should and should not post on their own social media pages is unhelpful and won't improve the relationship.

Edited December 9, 2021 by regentrude

[1234]

8 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I've seen some people claiming this "trend" of estrangement for nigh on two decades now.

But the actual trend? Haven't seen it. In my experience, people of all ages who end up limiting contact with their families of origin are deeply troubled by the necessity, take a long time to come around to it, and often make multiple efforts to reopen contact even when it's obviously ill-advised.

To be honest, I give a serious side-eye to anybody who claims there IS such a trend, because a lot of the people making that claim have a vested interest in believing that this trend exists. It's surely easier to think your children are faddish and cut you off because they're silly children (but they'll regret it later when they realize they do need you after all) than to think that these are the just consequences of your own actions.

Of course, I have a family history of estrangement on both sides. My maternal grandmother was never allowed to even meet her own mother's parents. She walked by their house every day to get to school, never spoke to them. I know that this is because those people badly abused their daughter throughout childhood and into adulthood - but the ultimate severing didn't come until well after their daughter, my great-grandmother, had left their home. She tried for a long time, despite their ongoing pattern of abuse, to have a relationship with the people who hurt her.

I don't know how those people explained this to their neighbors, or to themselves. They certainly didn't say "Yes, yes, we abused our daughter and then we used to bully our toddler grandson in revenge whenever we were mad at her for trying to enforce a perfectly reasonable boundary". Maybe they said she was a silly child who would one day realize she needed her mother and father. She wasn't, and she didn't.

 

My father limited contact with his mother. He didn't cut her off entirely, because my mother wouldn't let him, but he probably should have. My god, the woman tried to trick my parents into handing over custody so that she could break apart the marriage. She admitted this.

 

And when asked why her son didn't call much, didn't write, maybe she said it was his mean old wife, and he was a silly child who one day would realize he needed his mother. But he wasn't, and he didn't. She was toxic. That's just it.

 

Now, sure, sometimes the kids initiate estrangement and a reasonable observer would conclude that they are the ones in the wrong. It happens. Absolutely.

 

But... it's not a trend. Nearly all people who limit or eliminate contact with their parents (or their children) have a perfectly good reason for it.

 

And if you're invested in this idea that it IS a trend, you might want to take a good long look at yourself.

Yes, I no longer speak to either of my siblings. Neither do my dc but my dc have gone rounds with my siblings about their disrespect for me. Oldest told my sister that he has no interest in a close relationship with someone who disrespects his mother. He’s very close to myself, dh, and his sibling. I’m definitely not seeing this trend people here speak of with younger generations. 

For myself, I just stopped buying into the lie that I’m the one being disrespectful if I cut you off for being disrespectful. I miss my siblings but they know where I am and what needs to happen for us to come together again and they don’t seem interested, so oh well.

[EKS]

I am so sorry this is happening, and I have not read the replies.  

I just wanted to say that you may be interested in reading the book Woke Racism.  The author discusses how the "woke" thing is more like a religion than an ideology.  What this means is that interacting with those who espouse it as though their feelings about it were rational is doomed to failure and another approach is needed.  

 

[regentrude]

re "General disdain for family":

I do not find it surprising at all that young people who have gone through the ugly divorce of their parents aren't big on family. They have experienced first hand that "family" isn't the reliable, supportive, cozy unit one would like to believe - their experience of "family" is one of dysfunction and impermanence. (That doesn't mean they can't be close with individual family members, but the concept of family as a value must seem strange to them.)

[gardenmom5]

23 hours ago, Home'scool said:

 

• That they wished they could have a mother who was Liberal.

Bless their hearts.  My mother was pretty liberal.  they wouldn't have liked it.  

 

[Moonhawk]

7 minutes ago, EKS said:

I am so sorry this is happening, and I have not read the replies.  

I just wanted to say that you may be interested in reading the book Woke Racism.  The author discusses how the "woke" thing is more like a religion than an ideology.  What this means is that interacting with those who espouse it as though their feelings about it were rational is doomed to failure and another approach is needed.  

 

I mean...big yikes. Let's pause a moment to consider if we turn this around:

Conservatism is more like a religion than an ideology. What this means is that interacting with those who espouse it as though their feelings about it were rational is doomed to failure and another approached is needed.

If this feels icky, it's probably because no one wants their views to be dismissed as just being irrational. If you don't want to be dismissed, please do not promote dismissing others, especially based off a label you give them. 

Regardless of anything else in this thread, I do not think that reading a book that further entrenches OP against her daughters is a good idea. 

[skimomma]

21 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

 

But... it's not a trend. Nearly all people who limit or eliminate contact with their parents (or their children) have a perfectly good reason for it.

 

And if you're invested in this idea that it IS a trend, you might want to take a good long look at yourself.

The "trend" comment really hit a nerve with me.

I would also like to add that having a "found family" does not mean you don't want a relationship with your parents/siblings/etc.....  Sometimes those people see ANY other important relationships as a threat and make far more out of it than it truly is.  Say you were not able to visit your parents over a certain holiday due to work/schedule/finance/etc....  Then they see a photo of you on FB enjoying a meal with local friends.  All of a sudden you are  a "kids-these-days don't value family" monster. Rinse and repeat for decades.  This is a dynamic that plays out in an unhealthy dynamic with people in my own family.  One of many unhealthy dynamics that very much drives us to invest more in our "found family."  Anyone who heard their side of the story only would believe the kids-these-days trend.   

I agree that anyone who sees this as a trend might want to take a deeper dive.  I know literally no one that has cast off important family members for no reason.  I DO know many people who are doing everything they can to preserve whatever relationship they can salvage by maintaining healthy boundaries....boundaries that might look like being "cast off."

[gardenmom5]

wrong thread.

Edited December 9, 2021 by gardenmom5

[KSera]

actually, nm

Edited December 9, 2021 by KSera

[Jenny in Florida]

12 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I mean...big yikes. Let's pause a moment to consider if we turn this around:

Conservatism is more like a religion than an ideology. What this means is that interacting with those who espouse it as though their feelings about it were rational is doomed to failure and another approached is needed.

If this feels icky, it's probably because no one wants their views to be dismissed as just being irrational. If you don't want to be dismissed, please do not promote dismissing others, especially based off a label you give them. 

Regardless of anything else in this thread, I do not think that reading a book that further entrenches OP against her daughters is a good idea. 

I do agree with your final statement (I think).

However, my experience with folks in my life suggests that the statement you italicized can be equally true in both directions. Obviously, not true of everyone who identifies as either liberal or conservative, but I do see a lot of people for whom politics is all kind of mushed up with (and sometimes a substitute for) religion.