Please help me word this

[Home'scool]

I am terrible at getting my thoughts down coherently. And please be kind to me -- I am so distraught over this situation that I can't handle any judgment right now.

Since my divorce my relationship with my daughters (ages 25 & 27) has been strained. I think there is a lot of residual anger that they have over their father just up and leaving and I am the closest target. But it has been awful. They also became "woke" during the pandemic which has made things extra difficult.

We went to family counseling about a dozen times over the summer. I have also met with their individual counselors over Zoom calls.  We make ZERO progress.

In these sessions I have addressed and apologized for the times I let them down during the divorce proceedings They felt like I did not come see them or spend enough time with them and in some cases they were correct. So I have acknowledged that and apologized many times. I never claimed to be a perfect mother.

However, they also have accused me of:

• Raising them to "make fun of people who look different". I was SHOCKED when I heard that accusation. I have always taught them to be kind, when in doubt choose tolerance and that bullying anybody that would be the worst thing they could do. I have many, many examples of me teaching them this but it just falls on deaf ears.
• Being a white supremacist because I would not acknowledge my white privilege
• Being mad at me because I will not commit to buying from only black-owned businesses
• That they had to unlearn 99% of what I taught them because I am basically a bad person
• That they wished they could have a mother who was Liberal. I have always been a Conservative. My daughter said her boyfriend's mother did not want to meet me because of how I voted. This crushed me that she did not defend me even a bit.
• They have been disrespectful to other family members also. Their cousin, who they used to be close with, became a police officer and they would post terrible things about the police on their facebook pages.

I know it's hard to express all the accusations and feelings swirling around and that this is only my side, but I am trying to explain this as close to the truth as possible.

These are a few examples. It is like their whole childhood and everything about it was terrible. The counseling sessions just go round and round.

My oldest texted me today that she wants me to join in with another session. I can't do it anymore. I cannot sit there and take the abuse that they hit me with. I also cannot keep apologizing. I need to say that I am stepping back, that I am still here for them but not in this dysfunctional way, and that I want them to continue their counseling to try and sort themselves out. 

I am sick to my stomach over this but I cannot keep being their punching bag.

 

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't know about how to word it but from mid to late teens on, they are really responsible for their own thoughts, attitudes, words and actions.  Of course, you did shape them as their mother, but they were not lumps of clay that you molded without any input from them. 

[Carol in Cal.]

This is pretty common now, unfortunately.  

Those of us who are old enough to remember the Cold War recognize it as cant and brainwashing similar to communist and fascist indoctrination.  I am not at all sure how to address it.  The rewriting of history and lack of regard for the truth are not particularly amenable to logic, conversation, or appeal to an underlying relationship.  The levels of demonization of the ‘other side’ are remarkable.

Personally if it were me, I would say that I’m willing to meet again after the New Year.  I’d stretch out the time between meetings but I would want to stay engaged.  The alternative is no contact, very likely, and I don’t think you want that.  I’d try to work out some kind of arrangement wherein you alternate with them on the agendas for the meetings.  Ie one meet is for them to decide the topics, the next is for you to do so.  You could start the next meeting that way, with the counselor.  You could say, “I have some things I want to discuss.” And those would what you would like things to be like in your relationship.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Carol in Cal.

[freesia]

Oh, Home'scool, I'm so sorry.  I can imagine that that is really really painful and horrible.  I don't have a ton of wisdom, but, in your place I would 1. See a counselor on my own to work out a healthy way to process this and to set boundaries. 2. Could you agree to the joint counseling session, but maybe meet with the counselor first or right up front set a boundary about not being a punching bag.  I don't think you need to keep apologizing. I think it's fair during the session for you to address how you are feeling.

There are a couple of things that stick out to me, though, that it might help to change your narrative about. You can't control other people.  If your dd's boyfriend's mom doesn't want to meet you bc of who you voted for, that is not your business or in your control. People get to do that.  You also can't control whether your dd sticks up for you, even if she had voted the same way.  It would be healthier for you to let that go completely.

You can't control the narrative your dd's tell about their childhood. It's sad that they see it through such a negative lense.  It sounds like you've taken responsibility where you can, but I think you need to try to let that go, too, no matter how hurt you feel. Work with a counselor to grieve it. you can set boundaries around this, too.  "We've already discussed this and have different memories."  "I've already apologized." 'I'm not going to discuss this again."

[saraha]

((( @Home'scool))) no advice but I’m so sorry you are hurting. And what is wrong with that boyfriend’s mother? Who even days that?

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm sorry. It's hard to have that kind of strained relationship with your adult children. Although my daughter was younger when (what I fervently hope will turn out to have been) the worst of it hit, she hurled some of the same kinds of accusations and resentments at me. In my case, I am pretty darned liberal, but it still wasn't liberal enough for her. She expressed disappointment that I "had not kept up with her" in terms of evolving and learning.

It hurt. It was awful. To be honest, our relationship has never really recovered, because I am still tender and cautious when I speak to her. She has, in the past, cut me off for periods of time when I fail to live up to her standards, and my response has been to learn to be very careful about what I say. Even so, I still step in the muck every now and then. (It happened again, actually, just a few weeks ago.)

After the last incident, I sent her a brief text in which I simply and sincerely apologized for the one or two things I had said that I did genuinely regret but then told her I just could not continue that particular conversation any longer, that for my own well-being, I had to step back. Then I reminded her that I love her.

We had a few days of radio silence, but then she started texting and calling again, and we resumed as usual.

When I stop to think about it, I am very pained by the constrained and somewhat artificial relationship I have to settle for with someone I love more than my own life. But experience tells me it's the best I can do, at least for now.

So, the only advice I can offer is to gently but firmly tell your daughters what you can and cannot handle and ask them to respect your boundaries as you respect theirs. Then remind them how much you love them and hope for the best.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[Home'scool]

Quote

 

I'm sorry. It's hard to have that kind of strained relationship with your adult children. Although my daughter was younger when (what I fervently hope will turn out to have been) the worst of it hit, she hurled some of the same kinds of accusations and resentments at me. In my case, I am pretty darned liberal, but it still wasn't liberal enough for her. She expressed disappointment that I "had not kept up with her" in terms of evolving and learning.

It hurt. It was awful. To be honest, our relationship has never really recovered, because I am still tender and cautious when I speak to her. She has, in the past, cut me off for periods of time when I fail to live up to her standards, and my response has been to learn to be very careful about what I say. Even so, I still step in the muck every now and then. (It happened again, actually, just a few weeks ago.)

After the last incident, I sent her a brief text in which I simply and sincerely apologized for the one or two things I had said that I did genuinely regret but then told her I just could not continue that particular conversation any longer, that for my own well-being, I had to step back. Then I reminded her that I love her.

We had a few days of radio silence, but then she started texting and calling again, and we resumed as usual.

When I stop to think about it, I am very pained by the constrained and somewhat artificial relationship I have to settle for with someone I love more than my own life. But experience tells me it's the best I can do, at least for now.

 

Wow, it's like looking in a mirror! I am afraid this will put a permanent chip in our relationship but I have to stay true to my course. IT's hard though, when your marriage fails and your kids are distant. It makes you wonder what stamp, if any,  you will leave on the world. 😞

[Home'scool]

6 minutes ago, saraha said:

And what is wrong with that boyfriend’s mother? Who even days that?

Thank you! I had never met the woman but she would not meet with me because of how I voted. I said to my daughter "and I am supposed to be the intolerant one?!"

I may be Conservative but I have made it clear to both girls that I will respect whoever they bring home (black, white, purple, gay, trans, whatever!) and that as long as they are happy I will be happy for them. My oldest came out as bisexual and I have supported her 100%. 

[Katy]

I wouldn’t write the letter.  I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish but they’re not going to go from thinking you’re a bad person to a good person from a letter.  This is a phase, they will hopefully grow out of it. They’re in this phase a little late, but usually people go through a phase where they think their parents are morons and then slowly come back to humility about it.  If anything I’d say you won’t put up with listening to them abuse you or rewrite history. That you love them and always will but if they think you’re evil you’re never going to agree and you won’t listen to it any more.  

And then get in grief therapy for yourself. 

This is really no different from them adopting a new religion that you hate. It may be permanent, and there’s nothing you can do but accept it. 

[catz]

I actually don't think this is new or different.  Every generation will have young people that will rebel or react poorly to their childhood, step away, etc. 

Was their father emotionally or physically abusive toward them or you?  Could he have been without your explicit knowledge?  Was there tension in the home for a long time where their emotional needs may not have been met?  These are just rhetorical questions, I wouldn't expect you to answer them on a public board but just may be things to think about.

I think the idea of doing therapy on your own and stepping away if you are feeling abused is fine and fair.  Set your boundaries where you are comfortable if you think you have done fair self reflection.  Divorce and the circumstances leading up to it is hard.  I have friends who have struggled and made choices for MANY years that were a reflection of their parent's divorce.

 I wouldn't worry about things like what is said about your daughter's BF mother or assume that is being reported quite accurately.   Frankly, if you don't have a good relationship right now with your daughters, having relationships with others important to them isn't something to worry about.  I do think if you're being sincere and genuine and open, young people often let go of this type of idealism and come back around as they mature and grow and become less black and white in their thinking.  I like to remind myself the young adult brain is maturing until close to 30.  If you are throwing the phrase "woke" around like it's a disease, that probably isn't helping you though.  Having empathy toward others is actually a positive trait.  But I actually highly doubt that they are only using black owned businesses, etc 

I'm sorry this is troubling you so much, I hope you find some ways to find some peace.  

[Jenny in Florida]

13 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

Wow, it's like looking in a mirror! I am afraid this will put a permanent chip in our relationship but I have to stay true to my course. IT's hard though, when your marriage fails and your kids are distant. It makes you wonder what stamp, if any,  you will leave on the world. 😞

Yep.

This is one of the issues I've been wrangling with my own therapist, that sense that the breakdown of so many of the family relationships I devoted so much energy and hope to nurturing is my own personal failure. And given that I am concurrently trying to come to terms with the fact that choosing to be out of the work world for so many years means I will never have a "career" I can point to with pride and satisfaction . . . Well, let's just say there's a lot of grieving happening.

I try to remember that, regardless of the current status of my individual relationships with these young adults (or theirs with each other), they, as human beings, are okay. They are interesting and thoughtful and out in the world doing interesting and meaningful things. They have their ups and downs, but each of them is in a good place at the moment in terms of their personal/romantic relationships, and both are more or less supporting themselves financially. 

So, although I don't want to take anything away from them when it comes to working hard and creating their own achievements, I think this means I can say I didn't completely screw them up.

It's not their job to "repay me" by telling me how wonderful I am, but I can expect that other adults -- even the ones I birthed -- treat me with respect and consideration.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[Home'scool]

4 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

This is one of the issues I've been wrangling with my own therapist, that sense that the breakdown of so many of the family relationships I devoted so much energy and hope to nurturing is my own personal failure. And given that I am concurrently trying to come to terms with the fact that choosing to be out of the work world for so many years means I will never have a "career" I can point to with pride and satisfaction . . . Well, let's just say there's a lot of grieving happening.

I try to remember that, regardless of the current status of my individual relationships with these young adults (or theirs with each other), they, as human beings, are okay. They are interesting and thoughtful and out in the world doing interesting and meaningful things. They have their ups and downs, but each of them is in a good place at the moment in terms of their personal/romantic relationships, and both are more or less supporting themselves financially. 

So, although I don't want to take anything away from them when it comes to working hard and creating their own achievements, I think this means I can say I didn't completely screw them up.

Are you my twin?! 🙂

I have these same feelings ..... I chose to stay home so I did not make a great impact in the working world. My marriage failed. My children think I am a bad person. They are okay in the world though. They do a lot of volunteer work, my oldest is a scientist right now working on advancement in Alzheimer treatment, my youngest is an architect and an amazing artist. They travel extensively. They both make a good living. So, yeah, I guess I didn't screw them up completely.

I just pictured my life differently.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Home'scool

[SKL]

I think I'd just say something like this:

"I unfortunately don't feel like the joint counseling sessions have been helpful.  I would love to chat with you directly any time you like.  Love you!"

I agree that this is not an unusual situation these days.  On the positive side, your kids are still talking to you.  But sometimes less is more.

I often joke with my kids that I can't wait to read the books they will write about what a rotten childhood they have had.  This morning I was told off for *looking* at my daughter.  I proposed that she dedicate an entire chapter in her book to how I was always looking at her, until she was 15.  "It's no wonder I'm a mess!"  And then another chapter about how I wouldn't even look at her starting when she was 15.  "It's no wonder I'm a mess!"  😕

[Bambam]

I was pretty sure my oldest was going to do this sort of thing before she left for college. 
I sat her down and told her we did the best job we knew how raising her. We weren't perfect, we'd make mistakes, we got some things right, other things wrong, but we considered/thought about and tried the do the best thing for the family. Because there were four people in our family to think about - not just one child. And then I told her that she was an adult (not really IMHO, but on the way to adulthood but they do like to think they are adults) and NOW she was responsible for herself. We messed up raising her? Fine, do what you need to fix YOUR character. Don't take the easy way out and blame us. We might have messed up, but it is up to you to take charge and fix your own character to what you think is right.  You are responsible. 

That first year was tough. So tough. So many mean things came from her. Which after a point, I would not tolerate because I am not here to just take your verbal abuse. 

And then, something happened. I don't know what. Maybe having so many friends who had extremely poor parents/family life/situations? Maybe she just grew up? I don't know. She apologized for some of the really stupid things she said. And she is mostly pleasant now. We don't always agree, but I think she is willing to let me be a different person (actually the very same person I've always been!) than she thinks I should be.  I'm willing to listen to her, but I'm also willing to point out the holes in her points/arguments/agree not everything is perfect.  And right now, we can live with that. I'm not sure it will always stay that way though. 

I'm so sorry you are having these problems with both daughters. I think the world/trend right now is to put down your parents because they obviously messed up the world.  If you think we messed it up, get out and do something to put it right - or at least the segment you have some influence over. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Bambam

[Jenny in Florida]

38 minutes ago, Home'scool said:

I just pictured my life differently.

Oof, I can relate to this statement all too well. 

I honestly never thought my fairly non-specific daydreams about my post-mommying life were all that unrealistic, but at this point I've stopped allowing myself to hope for anything, because I can't handle coping with another disappointment. 

Again, I'm just so sorry you're having similar experiences. It does genuinely suck.

[MEmama]

It is difficult to be raised by someone whose worldview is in such opposition to your own. Gently, have you truly tried to look at it through this lense? 
 

I think it is very common for children to grow up with a different—and dare I say more modern— outlook from their parents. It is normal to reject certain (even most) things about their upbringing and it is healthy for them to reflect on ways that their parents might have fostered a healthier relationship. Can any one of us claim to be carbon copies of our parents?

Gently, and I know you are hurting but you are also asking for input, your OP comes off as inflammatory. Your use of “became woke” is condescending and even if you don’t say it that to way to them, I’m guessing they feel your disdain. You admit that you refuse to acknowledge your privilege. These are big issues. Not because “kids these days” but because your children see a world in which people are learning to do better. *As has been true with every.single.generation.* If their words come off as you wrote them, they do sound immature still, which is to be expected at their age. Particularly if they were raised one way only to go out into the world as young adults and see that it can be done differently. There’s a lot there for them to process, and it’s natural that you as mom would become a sounding board as they sort through the layers of their upbringing as they head into their futures. 
 

I'm sorry you are hurt, truly. I don’t mean any of this as judgment, I’m just offering up a different perspective to consider. It sounds like there is work to be done on communication all around, perhaps that’s something to bring up at therapy— either alone or in a group with them. Unpacking is messy business; I wish you the best as you navigate through.

[prairiewindmomma]

I would gently suggest to you that living with your ex for as long as you did likely affected all of you deeply. I would go to therapy on your own and simply reply to your daughters that you “are seeking therapy for yourself in hopes that one day we can all have healthier relationships with each other”.

I think if you are viewing therapy with your daughters as submitting yourself to as “tak(e) the abuse they hit me with” that maybe some individual therapy for yourself would be helpful. Perhaps that’s work in setting boundaries or refocusing or whatever you need to do to be at peace but maybe it is something else.

Edited December 8, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[mlktwins]

I just want to say I'm sorry you are dealing with this and all the hurt.  At my age, I am not as tolerate of people treating me badly as I once was.

I would definitely get therapy for yourself and would probably not attend any with them for a while, if ever.  They should not be speaking to you the way they are -- you are still their mother.  I would also take a break and have no contact for a while so you aren't bombarded by their negative comments all the time.  I would focus on yourself, healing, and finding your happiness.  It sounds like you've been through a lot!  

I think we are all doing the best we can (or the best we could) in raising our kids - especially during the past few years.  I know I've made mistakes along the way too and have apologized.  I would not allow them to continue speaking to me the way your daughters are speaking to you though.  Enough is enough...

ETA:  And...you take a break and have no contact for awhile, you won't have to worry about policing your every work and whether or not you are going to say something to set them off again.  One can only do that for so long!

Edited December 8, 2021 by mlktwins

[Faith-manor]

As the child who had to for a while put extreme distance between myself and my parents in my early twenties in order to heal from some stuff that happened in their marriage, and religious/spiritual abuse (not saying you did that at all, not at all, just that was what happened to me), I can say that time and space, despite from decreasing it constantly, having it permeate every conversation was vital. All parties involved needed it.

Take the heat and say, "I need peace to process, and am working through some of my own things. I can't do more group therapy at this time. I need to do individual therapy. But I love both of you more than life itself, and am always here for you." Then reduce contact to texting once a week, "How are you? Is everyone staying healthy?" Do mom things like send them new, fun masks, send them a funny meme or joke. Keep it superficial and light.

And "become woke" is profoundly offensive. Just profoundly. It is a term that is used to dismiss their beliefs. That isn't going to get you far in this fraught relationship with them. They could return the favor with "O.k. Boomer" or something else with equally rude connotations. So please drop that way of thinking about them.

Adult children really do not owe their parents. They are not obligated to believe what their parents believe, and that can be a harsh truth for a lot of parents. It cam get better over time, and they do need to learn mutual respect. But "become woke" and similar terms is not also showing them respect. There is nothing wrong with someone looking at the inequity in race relations and deciding that they are going to focus on buying from companies owned by minorities. Yes, it is a stretch to demand someone else do it, and they need to learn some boundaries. That said, fom your posts it really sounds like your disappointment at them not being conservative like you may be coming through in your communications, and that isn't helping. You and only you can deal with that. 

[daijobu]

I have not had the experience you describe, so this will probably be terrible advice.  In fact, I am eager to hear from PPs what they think of this approach.

If you value your relationship with your daughters more than outwardly upholding your conservative beliefs, why not just lie?  

them:  "You taught us to make fun of people."

you:  "I am very sorry I did that.  I hope you have learned otherwise since becoming an adult."

them:  "You do not acknowledge your white privilege."

you: "You are right.  I do have white privilege, and I need to work harder to acknowledge this.  Where should I start?"

them:  "You do not buy only from black owned businesses."

you: "You are right.  I will change this immediately.  I need to buy office supplies.  What do you recommend?"

them:  "You are a bad person."

you:  "You are right.  Please choose one thing I can work on to change first, and I will do that."

them:  "I wish you were liberal."

you:  "You are right.  I voted for the wrong person.  Please tell me who I should vote for in the next election."

 

It seems like just bending to their demands will take the wind out of their sails, you know?  If you and your dd's are caught up arguing about politics and white supremacy and whatever else that really doesn't matter, then you can't then let that go and discuss your relationship and the divorce and the trauma you all experienced.  

I don't know.  What do the PPs think?  

[WildflowerMom]

I can't remember if you're seeing your own therapist or not.  Please do.   

Also, it's ok to take a break from your adult kids.   They'll survive.   I would respond back something like, 'I may pick up with joint therapy after the holidays, but right now I need to focus on my own therapy.   I'm always here if you need me.  Love you, Mom.'  

[Jenny in Florida]

32 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Gently, and I know you are hurting but you are also asking for input, your OP comes off as inflammatory. Your use of “became woke” is condescending and even if you don’t say it that to way to them, I’m guessing they feel your disdain. You admit that you refuse to acknowledge your privilege. These are big issues. 

Not the OP, but I didn't read her post as saying that she "admits" any of those things. I believe she was listing the accusations that had been made against her. Not at all the same thing.

(I have also been accused by an adult child of being a white supremacist, by the way, despite the fact that I'm the one who raised my kids to recognize and reject those attitudes. My "crime" was pondering a thought experiment questioning the point at which certain attitudes become unacceptable. My daughter didn't speak to me for three days after that one.)

Personally, I don't ask that my adult children agree with me about these issues. I acknowledge that they are adults who have a right to their own opinions and beliefs, and I make no attempt to change their minds. I respect them as I would any other human being with whom I interact in the course of my life.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the same treatment in response.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[Scarlett]

So sorry.  You have gotten good advice.....I will repeat a bit.   Don't write them a letter right now.  Enough words have been said.  You need some space from them.  

I would agree to one more counseling session after the first of the year and basically let them know in front of a counselor that you have apologized repeatedly where you are able, that you love them, that their memories are not your memories.  And so what do they want to do now to move forward with an adult/adult relationship of love, respect and tolerance?  Because you are not emotionally able to continue listening to them tell you what a bad mother you are and what a bad person you are.  

"your memories are not my memories" is a phrase I have said to my  brother about 100 times over the years.  

[Home'scool]

I do have a wonderful therapist. He has been a profound help. 

I get what some people have commented on the "woke" comment. I did not mean to belittle their beliefs, it is just their beliefs are hurtful right now. I would fully support them buying from only black businesses or anything like that. Just don't try to force me and then become abusive when I don't.

There are also other examples that do not include being "woke". Just general disdain for family. 

Your replies have been very helpful ..... from helping me find the right words to knowing that others have "been there done that"

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Home'scool

[Pen]

What SKL suggested. Or

 

 I suggest you write back:

 

“I love you!!!  I am not able to join the counseling sessions as they are being conducted, however if in future they are done differently, then perhaps I will be able to join in again.  I love you very much!!! “

(Eta: you  could also put that you are seeing a therapist yourself if they don’t know — and perhaps even express thought that perhaps some day in future a joint / family session with your therapist could be tried.) 

 

I think getting some specifics as to what they base their beliefs about you on would be helpful.  
Eg What led them to feel that you raised them to devalue people who were different?  
 

 

Martin Geddes wrote a letter to his daughter you might find interesting and helpful  . 

 

It has specifically to do with Covid, and in his case the daughter is late teenager— nonetheless perhaps it would be helpful in your different situation regarding divorce and “woke” issues .  I think his situation also relates to there being a divorce. 
 

Perhaps it could be a model for expressing your own truth in longer , written form some time in future   
 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by desertflower
Vaccine disinformation is not allowed.

[TexasProud]

14 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

As the child who had to for a while put extreme distance between myself and my parents in my early twenties in order to heal from some stuff that happened in their marriage, and religious/spiritual abuse (not saying you did that at all, not at all, just that was what happened to me), I can say that time and space, despite from decreasing it constantly, having it permeate every conversation was vital. All parties involved needed it.

Take the heat and say, "I need peace to process, and am working through some of my own things. I can't do more group therapy at this time. I need to do individual therapy. But I love both of you more than life itself, and am always here for you." Then reduce contact to texting once a week, "How are you? Is everyone staying healthy?" Do mom things like send them new, fun masks, send them a funny meme or joke. Keep it superficial and light.

And "become woke" is profoundly offensive. Just profoundly. It is a term that is used to dismiss their beliefs. That isn't going to get you far in this fraught relationship with them. They could return the favor with "O.k. Boomer" or something else with equally rude connotations. So please drop that way of thinking about them.

Adult children really do not owe their parents. They are not obligated to believe what their parents believe, and that can be a harsh truth for a lot of parents. It cam get better over time, and they do need to learn mutual respect. But "become woke" and similar terms is not also showing them respect. There is nothing wrong with someone looking at the inequity in race relations and deciding that they are going to focus on buying from companies owned by minorities. Yes, it is a stretch to demand someone else do it, and they need to learn some boundaries. That said, fom your posts it really sounds like your disappointment at them not being conservative like you may be coming through in your communications, and that isn't helping. You and only you can deal with that. 

I wish I had words to express how passionately I disagree with this.

OP, you used the term here not to them.  Good grief. I am so, so tired of all of the political correctness. You are not disappointed with them. Heck, you are welcoming to transgender and everything. Nothing is enough anymore.

Praying for you OP.

[TechWife]

19 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I have not had the experience you describe, so this will probably be terrible advice.  In fact, I am eager to hear from PPs what they think of this approach.

If you value your relationship with your daughters more than outwardly upholding your conservative beliefs, why not just lie?  

them:  "You taught us to make fun of people."

you:  "I am very sorry I did that.  I hope you have learned otherwise since becoming an adult."

them:  "You do not acknowledge your white privilege."

you: "You are right.  I do have white privilege, and I need to work harder to acknowledge this.  Where should I start?"

them:  "You do not buy only from black owned businesses."

you: "You are right.  I will change this immediately.  I need to buy office supplies.  What do you recommend?"

them:  "You are a bad person."

you:  "You are right.  Please choose one thing I can work on to change first, and I will do that."

them:  "I wish you were liberal."

you:  "You are right.  I voted for the wrong person.  Please tell me who I should vote for in the next election."

 

It seems like just bending to their demands will take the wind out of their sails, you know?  If you and your dd's are caught up arguing about politics and white supremacy and whatever else that really doesn't matter, then you can't then let that go and discuss your relationship and the divorce and the trauma you all experienced.  

I don't know.  What do the PPs think?  

No. No. No. No. Incredibly immature. Lying is always a bad idea. Baiting others with fake agreement is nothing more than an attempt to manipulate. Playing games with relationships is always a bad idea.  No. Never. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by TechWife

[MEmama]

30 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I have not had the experience you describe, so this will probably be terrible advice.  In fact, I am eager to hear from PPs what they think of this approach.

If you value your relationship with your daughters more than outwardly upholding your conservative beliefs, why not just lie?  

them:  "You taught us to make fun of people."

you:  "I am very sorry I did that.  I hope you have learned otherwise since becoming an adult."

them:  "You do not acknowledge your white privilege."

you: "You are right.  I do have white privilege, and I need to work harder to acknowledge this.  Where should I start?"

them:  "You do not buy only from black owned businesses."

you: "You are right.  I will change this immediately.  I need to buy office supplies.  What do you recommend?"

them:  "You are a bad person."

you:  "You are right.  Please choose one thing I can work on to change first, and I will do that."

them:  "I wish you were liberal."

you:  "You are right.  I voted for the wrong person.  Please tell me who I should vote for in the next election."

 

It seems like just bending to their demands will take the wind out of their sails, you know?  If you and your dd's are caught up arguing about politics and white supremacy and whatever else that really doesn't matter, then you can't then let that go and discuss your relationship and the divorce and the trauma you all experienced.  

I don't know.  What do the PPs think?  

First, politics and white supremacy are EXTREMELY important issues; I can’t imagine anyone thinking they don’t matter. Just…how? 

Second, all of your talking points that you hope would “take the wind of their sails” would become excellent, thoughtful topics of conversation in my house. I love hearing my young adult's thoughts and learning from him. Of course mutual respect is key, but with that firmly established these are really excellent answers for someone who wants to listen and grow— and debate. 
 

EDITING: I did not previously see that you are encouraging lying. In that case of course it’s terrible advice. Being a condescending jerk to your kids is never okay. But if one wants to have an honest, intentional, mutually respectful growth opportunity, then of course asking their advice could be a good move. I learn a ton from my son —even when he’s being testy or confrontational—and I’m much better for it. I learned from my parents' mistakes in this department. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by MEmama

[MEmama]

14 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Not the OP, but I didn't read her post as saying that she "admits" any of those things. I believe she was listing the accusations that had been made against her. Not at all the same thing.

 

2 hours ago, Home'scool said:

Being a white supremacist because I would not acknowledge my white privilege

I guess we read this statement differently.

Apologies if that wasn’t what she meant.

[Jenny in Florida]

22 minutes ago, MEmama said:

 

I guess we read this statement differently.

Apologies if that wasn’t what she meant.

You left out the stem before the bulleted list:

"However, they also have accused me of:"

[Shoeless]

I think you need to take this up with your therapist. Your kids have crowdsourced advice and opinions from social media, (because they get a lot of validation there), but that's not a great idea.   But... you're here, asking virtual strangers for advice and opinions on this situation. It's not much different.

The opinions of strangers can sometimes offer new insight, yes, but seriously, don't take our advice on what should or should not be said to your children. No one here is a therapist and if any of us were, it would be unethical to try to advise you in this way.  

[MEmama]

7 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

You left out the stem before the bulleted list:

"However, they also have accused me of:"

Yeah, like I said maybe we just it differently? Obviously only the OP knows? 

It was just one point, regardless. Either way I don’t think it changes anything about the different perspective I offered up as a possibility. 

[Bambam]

54 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I have not had the experience you describe, so this will probably be terrible advice.  In fact, I am eager to hear from PPs what they think of this approach.

If you value your relationship with your daughters more than outwardly upholding your conservative beliefs, why not just lie?  

them:  "You taught us to make fun of people."

you:  "I am very sorry I did that.  I hope you have learned otherwise since becoming an adult."

them:  "You do not acknowledge your white privilege."

you: "You are right.  I do have white privilege, and I need to work harder to acknowledge this.  Where should I start?"

them:  "You do not buy only from black owned businesses."

you: "You are right.  I will change this immediately.  I need to buy office supplies.  What do you recommend?"

them:  "You are a bad person."

you:  "You are right.  Please choose one thing I can work on to change first, and I will do that."

them:  "I wish you were liberal."

you:  "You are right.  I voted for the wrong person.  Please tell me who I should vote for in the next election."

 

It seems like just bending to their demands will take the wind out of their sails, you know?  If you and your dd's are caught up arguing about politics and white supremacy and whatever else that really doesn't matter, then you can't then let that go and discuss your relationship and the divorce and the trauma you all experienced.  

I don't know.  What do the PPs think?  

ABSOLUTELY NOT the bolded. Do not lie. You can change your mind. That's fine. But to lie just for keeping the peace? Your kids will know. You will know you aren't being honest. And that is nothing to base a good relationship on. And, IMHO, some of this is just verbal abuse. "You are a bad person." FULL STOP. Nope. I'm sure we've all done bad things at times. We stop, apologize and try to correct. But that does not make anyone a bad person. 
And there is no way I'm going to let my kids dictate who to vote for.  Seriously??? And if I ever used this line with my kids, they would fall over and ask me if aliens had taken over my body! 

 

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I think you need to take this up with your therapist. Your kids have crowdsourced advice and opinions from social media, (because they get a lot of validation there), but that's not a great idea.   But... you're here, asking virtual strangers for advice and opinions on this situation. It's not much different.

The opinions of strangers can sometimes offer new insight, yes, but seriously, don't take our advice on what should or should not be said to your children. No one here is a therapist and if any of us were, it would be unethical to try to advise you in this way.  

I think talking to therapist about it would be extremely helpful.

 

however, all @home’scool  is asking for is help on how to word a letter ... she already knows what she wants to convey to her daughter(s):  that she isn’t feeling up  to doing the group counseling they want her to do.   It seems to be a matter of wording — not asking for people here to be therapists

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Bambam said:

ABSOLUTELY NOT the bolded. Do not lie. You can change your mind. That's fine. But to lie just for keeping the peace? Your kids will know. You will know you aren't being honest. And that is nothing to base a good relationship on. And, IMHO, some of this is just verbal abuse. "You are a bad person." FULL STOP. Nope. I'm sure we've all done bad things at times. We stop, apologize and try to correct. But that does not make anyone a bad person. 
And there is no way I'm going to let my kids dictate who to vote for.  Seriously??? And if I ever used this line with my kids, they would fall over and ask me if aliens had taken over my body! 

 

 

agree!
 

Think if it were reversed and parent told kids they were bad people and dictated whom to vote for! It might be more obvious that it’s not right

[1234]

I’m not going to comment on most of the stuff in your OP but we did have issues with oldest remembering things very differently. He was only 16-17 at the time and we had a great therapist who helped us all through it. She didn’t let him, or us, get away with anything and ds was able to come away from it realizing we did our best and loved him, but we definitely aren’t perfect (and that was ok). We’re super close now years later. 

So, I wonder if maybe your next group counseling session could be with your therapist and not theirs to maybe give them a different perspective? I also wouldn’t completely discount everything they’re saying. There could be some things you also are not remembering correctly. Good luck!

[Shoeless]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think talking to therapist about it would be extremely helpful.

 

however, all @home’scool  is asking for is help on how to word a letter ... she already knows what she wants to convey to her daughter(s):  that she isn’t feeling up  to doing the group counseling they want her to do.   It seems to be a matter of wording — not asking for people here to be therapists

Right, but a therapist can help craft a letter that doesn't inflame the situation further. 

I stopped talking to my father for awhile, so I am coming from the perspective of the daughters. The letters I received from him, (wording coached by well-intentioned but uninformed friends and relatives), did NOT improve things. 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Right, but a therapist can help craft a letter that doesn't inflame the situation further. 

I stopped talking to my father for awhile, so I am coming from the perspective of the daughters. The letters I received from him, (wording coached by well-intentioned but uninformed friends and relatives), did NOT improve things. 

Perhaps so. Especially for a long letter.

 

for a short text reply or similar it could be that waiting for therapist to help could itself inflame things further

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Pen

[Annie G]

Home’scool and Jenny, you’re not alone. Dh and I are going through this with one of our adult children and it’s baffling.  Heartbreaking, to be sure, but also just plain baffling.

[Soror]

🤗🤗🤗

I think the best option for preserving the future is to keep it short and sweet. 

I can't imagine the heartbreak especially with everything else you've went through. We've had a taste of it with teenagers and I'm nervous about the young adult years. I know I was a bit of a jackass as a young adult but I also know that my parents had their faults, like everyone else. We are still navigating differences and I'm in my 40s. I'm the more liberal one. It doesn't work unless there is some mutual respect and it doesn't sound like they are ready to give you any.

[BusyMom5]

"I thank you for inviting me to another joint session,  but I'm currently working through some heavy issues of my own with my therapist right now, and I don't think it would be a good idea to add more.  I love you, and hope your therapist is helping you find a way though the mess your father and I made of our marriage.  Love you!  Mom"

1.  Says clearly that you do not want to join.

2.  Says you are getting help for yourself.

3.  Admits that your marriage issues affected your daughters. 

4.  Wishes them well as they navigate therapy. 

I'm wondering if they are using these topics to push you away, without really wanting to discuss the deeper issues caused by your divorce?  Maybe instead of looking at the issues as they are presented, consider them a mask for what is going on deeper?

 

 

 

[freesia]

I keep wondering something.  I think you are also upset that they believe different things than you.  You want them to respect what you believe, but I think you need to wrestle a bit about how much the fact they don't agree with you bothers you and is affecting how you are relating.  Also, my mother always says people aren't listening to her when they don't agree with her when she argues something.  It sounds like both sides are doing this in your situation.  It's okay that you have different ideas and it's ok that you think each other is completely wrong.  They need to stop condemning you and you nee to stop judging them, too.  That's what it looks like from here anyway.

[livetoread]

They are putting very strict rules around what makes you acceptable in their eyes and that's not okay. They are telling you that you have to be a certain, very narrow way or...what? You are being accepting of them, but they are not being accepting of you. 

There is good that can come out of acknowledging their feelings and apologizing, and you've done that. But it's also true that the more blame you are willing to accept, the more they are willing to pile on you rather than dealing with their own frankly unhealthy rigidity about what makes you acceptable in their eyes. 

You deserve to be treated better than that. Are there echoes of how your ex treated you here? You deserve to be loved and appreciated for who you are. Setting some boundaries is modeling good caretaking for them and reminds them you aren't just a blank screen for them to project all their negative feelings onto, but instead an actual human with real feelings of your own. 

[Melissa Louise]

OK. Some thoughts. 

You being conservative is no proof against some of these accusations. I am as left wing as they come, and have had similar hurled at me. Though ds had the grace to say that I was only 'white supremacist adjacent'. Something which he has since walked back, perhaps when he grew up a little and decided to look at me as a person with an actual history, and not just mean mommy. 

So, it's not your political orientation. It's a form of separating from mom through rote denunciation. 

This therapist is not a good therapist if therapy takes the form of the adult children denouncing you for your politics, while you sit there and apologize. There is no form of family counselling I know of that takes this form. 

I would not give up on oldest, and I would agree to continuing in family therapy with her but I would be looking for someone with expertise in actual psychodynamic therapy. Someone who understands family systems. 

Failing this, and understanding that eldest will probably reject a change of therapist, get your own therapist who can help you use these family sessions wisely.

It should be ok - if this therapist is professional - for mom to also say things to the adult children. Things like, I can hear you are angry with me. I want to be here to find our way through this, because I love you, but right now, I feel like a punching bag, and it hurts. 

If you need to play for time, use a script like this. Dd, I want to come to another session. I need some time to reflect on things before we have another session. Let's book it in for a month's time. 

I'm sorry. Please understand it as a form of the adult children trying to separate from you in a developmental stage that was disrupted by the divorce.

It strikes me that the adult children are using politics to defend against their feelings of rage. The politics are a distraction, and a good therapist would not linger too long on the surface of the problem. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Not the OP, but I didn't read her post as saying that she "admits" any of those things. I believe she was listing the accusations that had been made against her. Not at all the same thing.

(I have also been accused by an adult child of being a white supremacist, by the way, despite the fact that I'm the one who raised my kids to recognize and reject those attitudes. My "crime" was pondering a thought experiment questioning the point at which certain attitudes become unacceptable. My daughter didn't speak to me for three days after that one.)

Personally, I don't ask that my adult children agree with me about these issues. I acknowledge that they are adults who have a right to their own opinions and beliefs, and I make no attempt to change their minds. I respect them as I would any other human being with whom I interact in the course of my life.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the same treatment in response.

Yes. This is what an adult relationship is. Mutual ability to respect each party as having a right to their thoughts, feelings and opinions. 

[freesia]

7 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

OK. Some thoughts. 

You being conservative is no proof against some of these accusations. I am as left wing as they come, and have had similar hurled at me. Though ds had the grace to say that I was only 'white supremacist adjacent'. Something which he has since walked back, perhaps when he grew up a little and decided to look at me as a person with an actual history, and not just mean mommy. 

So, it's not your political orientation. It's a form of separating from mom through rote denunciation. 

This therapist is not a good therapist if therapy takes the form of the adult children denouncing you for your politics, while you sit there and apologize. There is no form of family counselling I know of that takes this form. 

I would not give up on oldest, and I would agree to continuing in family therapy with her but I would be looking for someone with expertise in actual psychodynamic therapy. Someone who understands family systems. 

Failing this, and understanding that eldest will probably reject a change of therapist, get your own therapist who can help you use these family sessions wisely.

It should be ok - if this therapist is professional - for mom to also say things to the adult children. Things like, I can hear you are angry with me. I want to be here to find our way through this, because I love you, but right now, I feel like a punching bag, and it hurts. 

If you need to play for time, use a script like this. Dd, I want to come to another session. I need some time to reflect on things before we have another session. Let's book it in for a month's time. 

I'm sorry. Please understand it as a form of the adult children trying to separate from you in a developmental stage that was disrupted by the divorce.

It strikes me that the adult children are using politics to defend against their feelings of rage. The politics are a distraction, and a good therapist would not linger too long on the surface of the problem. 

 

Yes, all this.  Excellent post, Melissa.

[Jenny in Florida]

48 minutes ago, freesia said:

Also, my mother always says people aren't listening to her when they don't agree with her when she argues something. 

My daughter does this, too.

She also frequently says that I "don't understand" when she gets frustrated that I don't agree. She has not yet reached the stage at which she grasps that it is possible to understand what someone else is saying and simply hold a different opinion.

This is one of the many reasons I no longer argue (or, in fact, discuss anything substantive) with her. Our conversations tend to be very superficial, because any attempt to have a meaningful exchange of ideas ends in tears, accusations and some period of silent treatment.

[freesia]

1 minute ago, Jenny in Florida said:

My daughter does this, too.

She also frequently says that I "don't understand" when she gets frustrated that I don't agree. She has not yet reached the stage at which she grasps that it is possible to understand what someone else is saying and simply hold a different opinion.

This is one of the many reasons I no longer argue (or, in fact, discuss anything substantive) with her. Our conversations tend to be very superficial, because any attempt to have a meaningful exchange of ideas ends in tears, accusations and some period of silent treatment.

My SIL does the "don't understand" and  my mom the "you aren't listening."  They get louder and louder.  It's been, no kidding over 30 YEARS of this.  I just talked to my mom about how T'giving went.  She was all proud of herself bc when SIL brought up some political thing that would have set mom off, she said "hmmmm." Guess what? No argument, they moved on.  She's 82 years old. SIL is 52.  It seems you are doing much better at a younger age than my mom.  I haven't been willing to discuss politics with either of them for years.  We talk about other things.

I hope you and your dd move into a more mature phase soon.  I've heard your hurt over the years.  I've heard your love for her, too.  It sounds like you are doing what you can to break the negative communication styles.(((hug)))

[Scarlett]

56 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

It strikes me that the adult children are using politics to defend against their feelings of rage. The politics are a distraction, and a good therapist would not linger too long on the surface of the problem. 

 

QFT

[Farrar]

I don't know where Homes'cool is with wanting to learn or compromise, but I'm going to put out there a couple of thoughts.

One is that some of the things on the "how dare they" list are pretty galling, but others sound like you're entirely missing the point they're making. You do sound not just like you disagree with them, but like you're tone deaf to the concerns they have and like you might not really understand them. That's okay, but at the same time, if you don't understand them, then you're being pretty judgmental yourself.

You seem to be really honed in on them and imply that you're engaging them over their beliefs and challenging them. For example, them posting memes that are about the systematic issues of police violence or policing in America is not a personal attack on their cousin. Just like if they posted memes about the deep flaws of the American education system and our teacher training, we would all understand that it's not an indictment of every teacher as an individual, but of a system as a whole. You may disagree with them on this, but you're choosing to take that personally when you don't have to.

Which leads me to... why in the world would you look at their social media while this is going on? I know you're saying that you can't deal with it in a therapy session again... but it sounds like you are engaging over it. Ideally the therapist should be helping them draw boundaries and should be the ONLY place where you engage with them about any of this. If you're finding it exhausting, that's because it's hard work. It should ideally also be hard work for them. But they're offering to do this and try to continue the relationship. I'd be really careful about turning that opportunity down when the relationship is so precarious.

If therapy is too much right now, then it's too much and you should thank them for being willing to continue but say that you need a break and hope to return to it. 

In general, I think this is a relationship where you're going to have to go sideways if anything is going to work. Only talk about gardening and food. Or 80's songs and Office episodes. Or home decor and sports. Whatever is your sideways thing. Build from there and stop thinking about this. If they can't stop engaging you over it, then make it clear that you're stepping back from all discussion of politics and painful childhood memories unless the therapist is there to mediate so you can have a fruitful discussion.