Why get a COVID Vaccine if it will make no difference in your life?

[catz]

https://factcheck.afp.com/mass-covid-19-vaccination-will-not-lead-out-control-variants

https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/03/26/geert-vanden-bossche/

[Jean in Newcastle]

40 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

In my own life, being vaccinated will change my interactions only in that I will now feel okay being umasked in a small gathering of other fully vaccinated people. I will continue to mask in the general public. I will, however, possibly attend church (masking and social distancing in place), get a massage (masked), and start buying my own groceries instead of ordering delivery. 

I have unvaccinated kids so still spraying down my groceries with peroxide since they will get into them immediately. 

Yes, once I am vaccinated, I will finally feel comfortable going back to my very tiny (less than 20 people!) church where not everyone is careful with masks.  Though many of those are now vaccinated so once I am as well, I will go back after a year of attending only online.   ETA:  I will still mask though. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Jean in Newcastle

[ktgrok]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Yes, once I am vaccinated, I will finally feel comfortable going back to my very tiny (less than 20 people!) church where not everyone is careful with masks.  Though many of those are now vaccinated so once I am as well, I will go back after a year of attending only online. 

Yup, I was thinking of going back this Easter, but going without the kids seems...weird. Not sure yet. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

yet they each went in different directions with regard to the mRNA vaccine for themselves. Neither of them blindly.  

That’s really interesting.

 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

other science training besides veterinary degree . That could be looked up instead of using someone else’s somewhat “flame” post as your full information . Dont you think?

Just wanted to make sure you kept scrolling to see that I did this. I didn’t delete my knee doctor thing, but in my defense I was running out the door for another HBOT, ran out of time. I agree the arguments are complex and that he has plenty of room to have an opinion and put it out there. It left me wondering why there wasn’t commercial interest in his idea given the amount of money being thrown at covid research right now. It almost seemed like an idea not yet ready . The arguments were very complex.

[Tanaqui]

Resiliant, this thread is not your fault. There's no reason it should've been anywhere near to a hot-button issue for anybody. Don't worry about it.

Pen, as for your repeated hypocritical admonition to check your sources - part of that is asking "Is this information coming from some random nobody I've never heard of, or from a respected and reputable institution?" Sure, it's possible that the nobody is right and the well-known university is wrong - but I wouldn't put money on it.

I once read a memoir by somebody who grew up in Scientology. Pretty harrowing childhood, actually. As an adolescent, she was often tasked with community outreach, in pairs. Unsurprisingly, most people dislike being "reached out to" by the Scientologists, and she had to deal with a lot of strong responses, to which she and her partner would reply, as they'd been taught, "Think for yourself!" They said it so often and so vehemently that it took her many years to realize that, at that point in her life, she'd never done that.

All this to say, it's one thing to say "Check your sources, do your own research!" but you shouldn't get so worked up in saying it that you ignore your own advice.

I am sorry about your father, though.

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Just for a little twist, turns out this Vanden Bossche dude has a phd in virology as well as his DVM, specializes in *vaccine development*, and has been employed by some big orgs in that field. So his knowledge isn't *so* tertiary or off he wall or extrapolated. 

https://be.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche

I'm not saying I know anything more about the validity of his arguments, just thinking if vaccines are what he works with all day (not kitty cats), he has room to have an opinion. In fact, it's kind of interesting if MDs (not specialists in virology, much more broad training?) are knocking the views of someone with a phd in virology. 

This guy has not published any research in the last 25 years, and most of what he did publish involved animals (his last two papers, in 1995, involved monkeys and pigeons). If you look at his Linked In profile, he claims to have been managing director for a vaccine company called VARECO, which has no address or even a city — the location is listed as "Europe" — and an online search does not turn up any evidence of such a company existing. He claims to have been head of vaccine development for the German Centre for Infection Research, but his resume says he was only there for 5 months — I wonder why? He only lasted a year at GAVI. The vast majority of his career was spent as a lowly adjunct teaching veterinary medicine.

He has never published a single paper on vaccines, yet he claims to be the founder and CEO of a company that is developing a totally new vaccine technology — and he wants the entire world to stop using the current vaccines and wait for his much better vaccine... that doesn't actually exist or have any data.  And his made-up "theories" about why the current vaccines are dangerous have been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. No one takes this guy seriously except anti-vaxx conspiracy nuts.

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

debunked. No one takes this guy seriously except anti-vaxx conspiracy nuts.

You didn’t read the link I gave, because they question his arguments too. 

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You didn’t read the link I gave, because they question his arguments too. 

I did read the link. I didn't say that all anti-vaxxers take him seriously, just that only anti-vaxx conspiracy types take him seriously. The fact that even some anti-vaxx groups recognize that his arguments have no basis in fact shows how implausible his claims really are.

[Corraleno]

26 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I once read a memoir by somebody who grew up in Scientology. Pretty harrowing childhood, actually. As an adolescent, she was often tasked with community outreach, in pairs. Unsurprisingly, most people dislike being "reached out to" by the Scientologists, and she had to deal with a lot of strong responses, to which she and her partner would reply, as they'd been taught, "Think for yourself!" They said it so often and so vehemently that it took her many years to realize that, at that point in her life, she'd never done that.

All this to say, it's one thing to say "Check your sources, do your own research!" but you shouldn't get so worked up in saying it that you ignore your own advice.

Every single time I see the phrase "Do your own research!" on social media it's attached to a post written by someone whose "research" sources consist of Facebook, YouTube, and various conspiracy websites. Basically what that phrase means is "Don't believe the scientists, epidemiologists, and public health experts — go watch a bunch of random YouTube videos to discover The Real Truth™ that [insert your preferred boogeyman] don't want you know about [insert your favorite conspiracy theory]!" 

Funny how they never seem to say "Here's a link to multiple peer-reviewed articles in reputable scientific journals to back up my claims. Please read these to assist you in making an informed choice." 

[pitterpatter]

DH gets his second Moderna shot today. I get my first this Saturday. The vaccines are not 100 percent effective. There is no way to tell how much immunity they'll provide to the individual person. DH is greatly immunosuppressed. No shot will provide 90+ percent coverage for him. I live with him and provide caregiving services to my mother, who has stage 4 colon cancer. She also gets her second Moderna shot tomorrow. She lives with an elderly gentleman who has diabetes and is obese. He is fully vaccinated. I have a 13-year old daughter. She is not vaccinated. We will continue to mask, social distance, not eat out, and clean our groceries until Covid is well and truly in hand. It simply is not. There are variants that may or may not be impeded by our vaccines. There will be new variants too. It is not worth my DH's life, nor my daughter's, nor my mother's, nor anyone else's (even those of people I don't know) to be lacksadaisical just because we got our shots. (We detest Lysoling our groceries, by the way. Hate it!) The immunity these shots provide will run out at some point. One can easily be caught unaware at this moment. We will also keep doing it all to continue helping those who refuse to protect themselves...those who refuse to help protect us. 

Here's an example of why we'll continue our vigilance. My uncle's mother got her second shot this past week. She had been feeling unwell since a couple of days before but got the shot anyway because she didn't want to have to reschedule it. Guess what? She has Covid (likely got it a week before her second shot). She was taken off life support two days ago. Can you imagine the disappointment? She was so close to being fully vaccinated. So close to potentially surviving this thing. Now, she's waiting to die. (Scratch that. She died last night. 😔)

Edited April 1, 2021 by pitterpatter

[J-rap]

I agree there is a lot going on in this thread!  To the original OP:  I'd guess anxiety is the cause.

About various other topics:  I've never understood the "fear" part.   (I don't mean anxiety -- that's different.)   I do not personally know a single person who lives in actual fear because of Covid.  They're careful, not fearful, about how they live their lives.  To me, their decision to get a vaccine is almost the opposite of fear. They're getting it even if they're not 100% sure how it'll affect them, and knowing they might feel sick for a day or two!  But they're doing it to help others, or perhaps they are high-risk themselves.  And so far, every person I've spoken with in my various circles -- from both political parties, and even if they initially questioned the vaccine -- is getting vaccinated if they haven't already.  Many are doctors and scientists.  (Come to think of it, all of my relatives who are doctors and scientists are also Republicans, and they've all been vaccinated.)  My brother is a scientist and consultant for one of the Covid teams at Mayo, and he has colleagues who have worked with the Moderna vaccine.  He's familiar with their process and protocol.  I'm only throwing that out there because some people are giving personal anecdotes about people they know with expertise, so I thought I would too.  😆   I get my second dose of Pfizer this Saturday.

I also wanted to mention that RNA drugs already exist.  It's actually a very exciting field, and holds some potential for helping with as of yet incurable diseases.  Wouldn't that be great!

Lastly, this is one example of what the vaccine is doing for our family.  My mother lives in a care center.  So many people were dying of Covid there, until they got the strict mandates in place.  My mother's wing has around 20 people, and 11 of them died of Covid in a period of about three months.  Now that everyone there has been vaccinated, they've been able to open things up again.  I'm able to hold my mother's hand again.  They test the residents for Covid twice/week, and not one person has gotten Covid since being vaccinated, even with things opening up and seeing people again.

[Martha in GA]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I know you don't want a debate so I do not expect you to engage with my response but your response needs a response. 

First, your allegation that you will receive "party-line responses" is extremely offensive and completely inaccurate. The virus is not political. 

Second, we have not been "purposefully kept in fear." The pandemic is real and has killed half a million Americans so far. Many more Americans are now suffering from long COVID. 

Third, the body is complex but the "science" tells us both that the pandemic is real and dangerous and that the vaccines are reasonably safe. As others noted below, it is not "anti-science" to wait for vaccination. However, it is "anti-science" to claim that the science is not settled when it is. 

Okay, I didn't mean "party-line" as in political party. I meant the party-line as in this is what the American people are being pushed to believe through what I view as...propaganda (I can't think of a better word, and it doesn't quite convey what I mean...). Also, if you think my "party-line" response was offensive, have you seen the posts that call anyone who doesn't believe like everyone else about the pandemic "anti-intellectual and anti-science" among other things?

Of the half a million Americans who have died of COVID, 40% have been over 80 years of age, and another 12% were 75-79 years old. Yes, those people were important people, every one of them, although deaths of older people just after the vaccination were flippantly passed off as just people "who would have died anyway." By the way, I have known people (relatives of people I know, actually) who have died of COVID. It IS real.  I think we have a novel virus out there and that has caused greater problems than, let's say, a bad flu year. I think as a society, we are woefully unhealthy, and that has caused additional issues with this virus, both in terms of death and for the long-haul symptoms.

Finally, you say the science is settled, and I disagree with you. What exactly do you mean by the science is settled? I'm actually dismayed by the lack of knowledge we have about this virus that has been wreaking havoc for over a year! Why do some people get hit so hard, while others don't? Why do some people become super-spreaders, while others don't pass it on to anyone? Why do some people get gastro-intestinal problems while others only have respiratory problems? If the science were settled, we would know all these things. I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization). And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns.

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I agree there is a lot going on in this thread!  To the original OP:  I'd guess anxiety is the cause.

About various other topics:  I've never understood the "fear" part.   (I don't mean anxiety -- that's different.)   I do not personally know a single person who lives in actual fear because of Covid.  They're careful, not fearful, about how they live their lives.  To me, their decision to get a vaccine is almost the opposite of fear. They're getting it even if they're not 100% sure how it'll affect them, and knowing they might feel sick for a day or two!  But they're doing it to help others, or perhaps they are high-risk themselves. 

 

Snipped the part that I wanted to respond to.  I did have fear a year ago in March.  I was quite ill with "something" for six weeks.  It affected my breathing, gave me chest tightness.  But this was very early in the pandemic when I didn't even meet requirements for a Covid test because I was too young and didn't meet narrow medical parameters.  Much later I did have a antibody test that came out negative but it was actually a bit late for possibly showing results so who knows?  But I did have actual fear each night that I wouldn't wake up in the morning because I am immunocompromised and spent six months one year and seven months another with very serious chest/airway infections that just wouldn't clear up.  But once I recovered from that illness I have been quite careful about Covid precautions but not fearful.  Just saying that some specific circumstances might warrant fear even though I struggled at the same time to trust God for my well-being and my recovery.  I 100% agree with you about being careful and about getting the vaccine for others as well as ourselves.

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns.

Are you not also concerned about auto immune responses and inflammatory responses to the virus?

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization).

I am pretty sure that scientists and medical professionals around the world are working on this as hard as they can. It would be completely illogical if that weren't the case. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by regentrude

[OH_Homeschooler]

I agree with others that this person probably has anxiety. So getting the vaccine likely HAS made a difference in her life, even if you cannot see the difference it has made. 

Anyone with anxiety can identify with the feeling of a weight being lifted off your chest, and how that can lead to better sleep, which can lead to a better mood, and so on. 

[Martha in GA]

9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Are you not also concerned about auto immune responses and inflammatory responses to the virus?

Well, yes, but the vaccine involves purposely injecting myself, whereas the COVID might or might not happen.

[ktgrok]

Just now, Martha in GA said:

Well, yes, but the vaccine involves purposely injecting myself, whereas the COVID might or might not happen.

Gotcha. So I think actually we agree that our preference would be to not catch Covid AND not need a vaccine.

I just don't trust my ability not to eventually contract it, not without continuing to hermit myself away as much as possible. And then potentially spread it. 

[Pawz4me]

57 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I also wanted to mention that RNA drugs already exist.  It's actually a very exciting field, and holds some potential for helping with as of yet incurable diseases.  Wouldn't that be great!

 

Yes! The people on the cancer board I belong to are super excited about the potential.

 

29 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Are you not also concerned about auto immune responses and inflammatory responses to the virus?

I'm WAY more worried about possible AI issues that might come from contracting the virus than I am from the vaccine. So many reports of Long Covid, but I don't recall hearing of any AI issues with the vaccine. Anecdotally, nothing worrisome or even very interesting is being reported on the arthritis and other medical/patient forums I belong to, and a lot of people with AI diseases on those forums have received the vaccine. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Pawz4me

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

These discussions are all the same. We're presented with several options to help end the pandemic, e.g. mask wearing, social distancing, and a vaccine. Then we hear, "I wish they would do this," or "I wish we had more evidence." 

It's a distraction. 

 

What I'm noticing is that complaints of inconsistent messaging, when confronted with more consistent messaging, turned into complaints about propaganda and group think. 

And taking precautions shamed as being fearful. But then the vaccine is rejected out of fear of side effects. 

[catz]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

Do people not understand how medical research is done? People expect more certainty about COVID precautions than exists for many medical treatments. 

I really wonder.  The vaccines had extremely large double blind studies, and people still tout experimental treatments as miracle cures when there is absolutely no solid double blind data that would lead to that conclusion.  Where's the evidence of the wide scale conspiracy that the vast majority of the medical community is trying to pull one over on us? 

[Dmmetler]

15 hours ago, Resilient said:

I admit that I am a little sarcastic about this situation, but a part of me is genuinely asking and willing to learn.

An acquaintance has been (what I consider to be) completely fanatic about following alllll the protocols--going well above and beyond.  Double masking with N95 even in her car, when when walking outdoors, 6' away from her walking friend... She has groceries delivered and washes all of the packaging with bleach. This is a small sample of her protocols to give you the drift.   

She got the vaccine for herself and her family before they were eligible (dh, 2 adult children) by lying about their "underlying conditions" and "caregiving for multi-generational people in your home" (read: my adult child comes to visit)...  Got the scenario?

She has the vaccine now, as does everyone she knows (most of whom got it out of order but by luck, not by lying) and she still is insisting on all the same protocols: (see the first 2 paragraphs).  She has no plan to change anything at all in her life as a result of getting the vaccine.   

I don't understand this. Can someone explain?  

 

I am teaching in person this semester, and will be officially fully vaccinated tomorrow. I do not plan to change what I am doing until all my students are able to be vaccinated and have had time to do it, and since my youngest are preschoolers, that will be awhile. I will also continue to mask in stores, outdoors with non-family, etc.  My reason is 1) I want to keep those who are not vaccinated safe-and as long as under 16 can't be vaccinated, almost everyone I know has at least one non-vaccinated person in their household 2) I want to model the behavior and be conscious of the concerns of those who cannot be vaccinated yet. It is no big deal for me to wear a mask, even when I'm with a vaccinated friend. 

 

 

[melmichigan]

I guess I'd be the OP.  My husband is fully vaccinated, three of us are partially vaccinated, but two children don't qualify.  Nothing has or will change for us.  Then again, this is what's going on in my community, so I think my concerns are valid.  I do think I will have a harder time letting go of some of these measures with the variants now showing up in my state.  B.1.1.7 has certainly caused a difference.  We get vaccinated and take precautions each flu season.  I look at the covid vaccine the same way.  

[SKL]

I think that if I was very afraid of Covid, the vax would not make me less afraid, at least not until the vast majority of people were vaxed.

There still isn't much information about what the vax actually prevents.  There is still at least 5% chance that the vax doesn't protect a particular individual.  The person may also be more afraid of spreading than catching the virus.  (People with OCD, for example, are often afraid their actions will cause the death or illness of loved ones rather than themselves.)  We are still waiting to find out whether the vax is very effective at preventing spread.  And then there are the "new variants" that the media is telling us to fear, with or without the vax.

As for washing fruits and some other actions, I believe some people have decided that they are going to stick with Covid-era precautions because they also prevent against other bugs.  Maybe the feeling of being in control over that is helpful to this person in the short run.

(None of this applies to me personally - I am not afraid of Covid and I don't wash my groceries etc.)

[kbutton]

53 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

People expect more certainty about COVID precautions than exists for many medical treatments. 

Including for the vaccine. The covid vaccines are currently more effective than vaccine for the flu if I understand correctly. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm 

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Including for the vaccine. The covid vaccines are currently more effective than vaccine for the flu if I understand correctly. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm 

Yes, significantly more effective!

I WISH the flu vaccine worked that well. 

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Snipped the part that I wanted to respond to.  I did have fear a year ago in March.  I was quite ill with "something" for six weeks.  It affected my breathing, gave me chest tightness.  But this was very early in the pandemic when I didn't even meet requirements for a Covid test because I was too young and didn't meet narrow medical parameters.  Much later I did have a antibody test that came out negative but it was actually a bit late for possibly showing results so who knows?  But I did have actual fear each night that I wouldn't wake up in the morning because I am immunocompromised and spent six months one year and seven months another with very serious chest/airway infections that just wouldn't clear up.  But once I recovered from that illness I have been quite careful about Covid precautions but not fearful.  Just saying that some specific circumstances might warrant fear even though I struggled at the same time to trust God for my well-being and my recovery.  I 100% agree with you about being careful and about getting the vaccine for others as well as ourselves.

You're right...  I can certainly understand being fearful of getting Covid due to already compromised health, especially early on when we knew so little.  I wasn't thinking of that aspect.

[melmichigan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Including for the vaccine. The covid vaccines are currently more effective than vaccine for the flu if I understand correctly. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm 

Studies released show my likelihood for a severe outcome with covid are much worse than the general population.  I don't have that same concern with the flu.  There are also studies that are showing real concern for vaccine effectiveness in those with impaired immune systems.  So to some the vaccine may not provide a 90% efficacy against disease.  Early data for organ transplant, as an example, are abysmal when compared to the general population.

I wipe down fast food cups, and things like gallon milk, but I do that during flu season.  I wear a protective mask.  I don't think I'm excessive, but I'm sure other people might.

Edited April 1, 2021 by melmichigan

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

Studies released show my likelihood for a severe outcome with covid are much worse than the general population.  I don't have that same concern with the flu.  There are also studies that are showing real concern for vaccine effectiveness in those with impaired immune systems.  So to some the vaccine may not provide a 90% efficacy against disease.  Early data for organ transplant, as an example, are abysmal when compared to the general population.

I wipe down fast food cups, and things like gallon milk, but I do that during flu season.  I wear a protective mask.  I don't think I'm excessive, but I'm sure other people might.

You just made a good argument for why those of us that can vaccinate and are likely to respond reasonably well, if not optimally, should get it and contribute to herd immunity.

A failure to respond optimally to vaccines is not new though, and some people do not become immune to things that most people do. I know someone that got chicken pox basically every year until it was common for kids to be vaccinated. 

I think there will be people who under-respond but who will still be more protected than if they are not vaccinated, especially if we manage herd immunity at some point.

[Jean in Newcastle]

13 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

Studies released show my likelihood for a severe outcome with covid are much worse than the general population.  I don't have that same concern with the flu.  There are also studies that are showing real concern for vaccine effectiveness in those with impaired immune systems.  So to some the vaccine may not provide a 90% efficacy against disease.  Early data for organ transplant, as an example, are abysmal when compared to the general population.

I wipe down fast food cups, and things like gallon milk, but I do that during flu season.  I wear a protective mask.  I don't think I'm excessive, but I'm sure other people might.

I take an immuno-regulator.  It actually is a drug that has been considered as a treatment for Covid (though thankfully the conspiracy theory nuts haven't heard of it yet so it hasn't gotten any press - just academic medical papers).  I do wonder if the vaccine that I'm scheduled to get in a week will be as effective as if I weren't on this drug.  But this drug prevents cytokine storms so perhaps it will keep me from potential side effects?  Either way, the current medical guess (and it is a guess in this case but with experimental drugs it is always that way) is to get the vaccine anyway.  I am going with the medical experts on this even if it might not be 100% effective. 

[ChickaDeeDeeDee]

Since the theories of Geert Vanden Bossche being discussed in this thread, I thought I'd drop this off.    Sorry for the formatting, I'd try to fix but I don't have more time right now.  

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/node/23354

New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments

News

March 8, 2021

 

 

 

[melmichigan]

32 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I take an immuno-regulator.  It actually is a drug that has been considered as a treatment for Covid (though thankfully the conspiracy theory nuts haven't heard of it yet so it hasn't gotten any press - just academic medical papers).  I do wonder if the vaccine that I'm scheduled to get in a week will be as effective as if I weren't on this drug.  But this drug prevents cytokine storms so perhaps it will keep me from potential side effects?  Either way, the current medical guess (and it is a guess in this case but with experimental drugs it is always that way) is to get the vaccine anyway.  I am going with the medical experts on this even if it might not be 100% effective. 

I completely agree.  I stopped my medication to increase the likelihood that I will have as much of an immune response as possible.  My child was premeditated, knowing that may very well decrease the effectiveness, but because it was needed.  I'll take whatever protection I can get at this point, for me and mine, but at the same time I realize the limitations in the science at this point, and will continue to take adequate precautions.  

I do see updated boosters for variants in the near future, and eventually multi-strain shots just like the flu.  The argument Geert Vanden Bossche makes doesn't make sense to me because the virus was already mutating before we started vaccinating. We are expecting it to continue and planning accordingly.  I can't see how waiting for an unknown, and as yet undeveloped vaccine, that he's said to be developing will help us over the next few years.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by melmichigan

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, Martha in GA said:

And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. 

What about contributing to your community's herd immunity? What about hopefully preventing the spread of a deadly virus? Or is it all just about you?

I do understand; to my shame, I used to have the same approach to my child's vaccinations. I determined that she would get them when and only when I felt the risk to HER was greater from the disease than from the vaccination. Other people didn't factor into the equation at all. Very American of me, I must say--but not at all Biblical. 

If there's one thing this pandemic has taught me, it's how profoundly our actions affect everyone around us. 

[TexasProud]

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

[regentrude]

17 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

 My child was premeditated

Thank you for this wonderful typo ...bahaha

[MercyA]

15 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my life again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

After we receive our second shot, my husband and I are planning on following the CDC's recommendations for fully vaccinated people:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

May I gently suggest that living well encompasses much more than just doing the things we want to do? I know you know this, but it bears repeating. I would hate to suggest to anyone who is continuing to be cautious--for whatever reason--that they're not really "living." 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Since the theories of Geert Vanden Bossche being discussed in this thread, I thought I'd drop this off.    Sorry for the formatting, I'd try to fix but I don't have more time right now.  

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/node/23354

New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments

News

March 8, 2021

 

 

 

You realize that the current variants that have the mutation that allows them to evade antibodies (P1 and B1351) evolved before we had vaccines, right?

That this is how viruses naturally evolve and mutate with or without vaccines?

That the best way to prevent the virus from mutating is to prevent people from catching it to begin with?

That vaccines are by far the best tool we have to limit spread and therefore limit mutations?

Edited April 1, 2021 by Corraleno

[Spryte]

I’ll follow CDC guidelines for vaccinated people, whatever they may be.  We have an under 12, so we will have an unvaccinated family member till early next year, probably.

I’m looking forward to more freedom.  But we will mask in public, indoor places, and avoid crowds.  Wash hands, distance with people we don’t know are vaccinated.

I never really masked outside, unless in a crowded area or speaking to someone.  Just carried a mask, in case. That won’t change.

Elderly mom got her second shot yesterday, and already has plans to travel 2 weeks post-shot.  Her twin will come get her, they’ll go to restaurants and shopping, and I’m sure they won’t wear masks once.  My mom will forget to wash her hands frequently, sigh.  They will be around unvaccinated people who are not careful, and we will just hope it all goes well.  I need a break from her care, so this is necessary. She will be gone a week, and we just have to hope there’s some protection against transmitting it when she gets back and is around unvaccinated DD.

We will get together with vaccinated people, one household at a time, or whatever the current guideline says.

And we will have vaccinated HCW come over again, to aid in elder care.  (Yay!) 

So we will still be careful, maybe more than some think reasonable (is following CDC guidelines unreasonable?  I don’t think so, but some do). But we will certainly be opening things up a lot,

[Pam in CT]

re I got the shot so I could live again

14 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

I did too. And (once my 13 more days of waiting are complete) I will do *more* things.  Particularly with my longed-for loved ones, all of whom are either already vaccinated or on their way.

But not *all* the things. Because

• I don't know *conclusively* that I might not still spread the virus even though I don't contract the virus, though, as @kandemphasized, the recent data on this is looking "very good"  😊
• And in the meantime, there are loads of people in my state/ community who have not yet been able to be vaccinated, and
• Cases are rising sharply here (as @melmichiganillustrated above for her state as well), in large part because
• New variants, that appear to be both more transmissible and more virulent, are spreading fast.

It is the last that troubles me the most. Because the more variants emerge and the faster they spread, the more we -- all of us, the United States and the world, whether we choose as individuals to vaccinate or not -- risk being set back, Parcheesi-like, to START.

Our only hope in defeating this is for vaccination to outpace the spread of the new variants, so that COVID isn't circulating in levels that spike to exponential growth.

The vaccines are ~95% effective in preventing contraction of COVID to people who are exposed to it.  If (real) positivity rates are low enough, and (actual) cases are low enough, then most of us will not be exposed to it.  That is the mechanism by which herd immunity works.

But if we all surge back too soon to our regular lives, the variants will win.

[kokotg]

37 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Since the theories of Geert Vanden Bossche being discussed in this thread, I thought I'd drop this off.    Sorry for the formatting, I'd try to fix but I don't have more time right now.  

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/node/23354

New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments

News

March 8, 2021

 

 

 

Right; as this article makes clear, it isn't the vaccine that will lead to mutations, it's letting the virus spread unchecked. The vaccine is our best chance to stop or slow mutations. From your link:

Quote

 “We have to stop the virus from replicating and that means rolling out vaccine faster and sticking to our mitigation measures like masking and physical distancing. Stopping the spread of the virus will stop the development of further mutations,” Ho says.  

 

[Pawz4me]

25 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

I think we'll probably loosen up at least a little bit once we're fully vaccinated, but how much will depend on how many people in our area get vaccinated, what the variants are doing, and what we find out about how well the vaccines work against those variants. But mostly it will depend on how many others in our area are getting vaccinated, I think. Neither DH nor I will get the expected 90-95 percent protection from the vaccine. How much protection we will get is anyone's guess. We don't miss much, but we would love to be able to go out to eat again (at non-peak times), maybe take a day trip or two sometime this year. But given how few people seem to give a carp about others I doubt we'll be able to do much.

[Corraleno]

26 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

Once I'm fully vaccinated, I'll get a hair cut, I'll go back to grocery shopping in person since Trader Joe's doesn't deliver, I'll hire some folks to come do repairs I've put off this past year, I'll go visit my son at college and maybe even go see my parents in FL. But I'll also continue wearing a  mask and being careful. I won't be eating in restaurants any time soon, or traveling abroad for another year at the very soonest. I'll still be enjoying life.

[kokotg]

I think the big difference for me in the short term will be more freedom to see close friends and family even if the weather's bad 🙂 . It also means I don't need to worry every time my husband gets another e-mail about how he was in a room for an hour last Wednesday or whenever with a covid positive student. Outdoor restaurants. I'll feel better about outdoor stuff even when it's crowded. But I'm happy to wear a mask and keep my distance around people I don't know are vaccinated until everyone's had a chance to be vaccinated, including kids. Also, while I'LL feel pretty comfortable doing most things, I still have 2 kids who can't get vaccinated yet, so I'll likely make different decisions when they'll be with me than when I'm by myself. I'm thinking a lot about how comfortable we'll be as a family doing inside stuff while we're traveling this summer. So far I suspect indoor restaurants are a definite no, stuff like museums that are taking precautions....we'll see.

[Terabith]

Once I'm fully vaccinated, I'll go to the dentist and the eye doctor.  

Once we're all vaccinated, depending on what's happening with the variants, HOPEFULLY I will feel safe going to see my parents and sister in Tennessee and taking my kids to visit some colleges.  I'm pondering my oldest taking the SATs.  

I'm really, REALLY hopeful that the variants will be low enough that I'll feel safe sending my kids to school in person in the fall.  I feel confident I will feel okay about oldest going to tiny school with rigorous precautions.  I'm hoping I'll feel okay about youngest going to big public school.  

[Martha in GA]

36 minutes ago, MercyA said:

What about contributing to your community's herd immunity? What about hopefully preventing the spread of a deadly virus? Or is it all just about you?

I do understand; to my shame, I used to have the same approach to my child's vaccinations. I determined that she would get them when and only when I felt the risk to HER was greater from the disease than from the vaccination. Other people didn't factor into the equation at all. Very American of me, I must say--but not at all Biblical. 

Actually, I take offense that you think I am selfish for not wanting to have the vaccine. I am a Christian, and I am respectful of other people. I don't go out when I am sick, I have abided by the shelter-in-place requirements, I have masked in public, and I don't call people names for not believing the same way I do. 

I don't quite understand the logic that I need to have the vaccine to protect others. If those who wish to be vaccinated are vaccinated, they should have nothing to fear from me. It doesn't sound like anyone is being told that the vaccine is contraindicated for them? I don't want to inject something in my body that, to me, doesn't have the long-term safety record. I believe the body is wonderfully and fearfully made, and I'm hoping my body can fight COVID if I get it. If not, then I'll live (or die) with the consequences. 

I am vaccinated for all the usual things, as are my children (young adults). I have never had the flu vaccine, and I feel this vaccine would be similar to that since it looks like it will be around for a while. Do you feel everyone should be required to get the flu vaccine?

[Martha in GA]

4 minutes ago, kand said:

To the italicized: We certainly have some major health issues of concern, but we can’t suddenly  solve those in the middle of this pandemic, and I think pointing to those issues gives some people a feeling of control and comfort (and superiority?) because they think it means they can’t be touched by this virus because they are so healthy. There are lots of people dealing with health circumstances completely out of their control, and both those people and those dealing with health circumstances they do have some power to improve shouldn’t be cast aside as “sucks to be you” by those who consider themselves healthier.

That was not my intent -- I didn't say that out of smugness. Yes, there are many people who have health issues beyond their control. Yes, there are many people who have poor immunity because they haven't chosen to take good care of their bodies. My commentary was more about the fact that the virus has swept though the U.S. and has been as deadly as it has been because many people's immune systems are compromised. No, I don't think we can solve these problems in the middle of a pandemic. 

[MercyA]

33 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

Actually, I take offense that you think I am selfish for not wanting to have the vaccine. I am a Christian, and I am respectful of other people. I don't go out when I am sick, I have abided by the shelter-in-place requirements, I have masked in public, and I don't call people names for not believing the same way I do. 

I don't quite understand the logic that I need to have the vaccine to protect others. If those who wish to be vaccinated are vaccinated, they should have nothing to fear from me. It doesn't sound like anyone is being told that the vaccine is contraindicated for them? I don't want to inject something in my body that, to me, doesn't have the long-term safety record. I believe the body is wonderfully and fearfully made, and I'm hoping my body can fight COVID if I get it. If not, then I'll live (or die) with the consequences. 

I am vaccinated for all the usual things, as are my children (young adults). I have never had the flu vaccine, and I feel this vaccine would be similar to that since it looks like it will be around for a while. Do you feel everyone should be required to get the flu vaccine?

I didn't call you any names, but I agree that not receiving the vaccine, if it is not contradicted for you, is selfish. Not a sin, maybe, not an absolute moral wrong, but selfish. You are depending on other people to build herd immunity while shirking your own responsibility. As Christians, we are exhorted to consider others above ourselves, to serve others, and to care for the elderly and infirm. It is a privilege to do these things.

If you feel you must be cautious about the vaccine, then please, at the very least, continue to stay home and please continue to wear a good mask whenever you are out. 

Good for you for masking and abiding by the shelter-in-place ordinances, and I mean that very sincerely. I know many Christians who have not--most in my community, actually--so I am a bit short-tempered with the church at the moment. 🙂  

You do know that you can spread covid even when you're not feeling sick, right? I keep seeing this pop up on these threads--"I stay home when I'm sick." Always a good idea, of course, but covid can be and is spread by asymptomatic people.

If enough people aren't vaccinated, we will *not* reach herd immunity and this virus that has already killed half a million plus people will continue to kill. (Although, as you noted, many of those who died were elderly. You hastened to reassure us that they were still "important," but if that were the case, I'm not sure why you bothered to mention those stats at all. And, yes, people have died *after* the vaccine, but none so far have been proven to die *from* the vaccine.). 

Yes, God is a wonderful Creator, but I'm not following this as a reason not to vaccinate. Perhaps because our bodies can heal themselves we don't need to wear seatbelts, either? Again, it's not just about YOU living or dying. You have the chance to protect other people. 

I regret that I never received the flu vaccine before this year. I plan to every year in the future, not just for myself, but for other people.

That said, the flu is nowhere near as deadly as this virus. Half a million dead, even with everyone taking all the precautions they did. How many will have to die before you consider it worth the small risk to yourself to receive the vaccine? 

Should the vaccine be mandatory? Maybe, especially for those traveling outside of their community or gathering in large groups, if those people keep stubbornly refusing to do the right thing on their own.

Edited April 1, 2021 by MercyA

[Pawz4me]

11 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

Actually, I take offense that you think I am selfish for not wanting to have the vaccine. I am a Christian, and I am respectful of other people. I don't go out when I am sick, I have abided by the shelter-in-place requirements, I have masked in public, and I don't call people names for not believing the same way I do. 

I don't quite understand the logic that I need to have the vaccine to protect others. If those who wish to be vaccinated are vaccinated, they should have nothing to fear from me. It doesn't sound like anyone is being told that the vaccine is contraindicated for them? I don't want to inject something in my body that, to me, doesn't have the long-term safety record. I believe the body is wonderfully and fearfully made, and I'm hoping my body can fight COVID if I get it. If not, then I'll live (or die) with the consequences. 

I am vaccinated for all the usual things, as are my children (young adults). I have never had the flu vaccine, and I feel this vaccine would be similar to that since it looks like it will be around for a while. Do you feel everyone should be required to get the flu vaccine?

Re the Christian part: See the Golden Rule and the second greatest commandment. You don't think these are reasons that Christians should feel some responsibility to get vaccinated to protect others? Asking sincerely.

Many of us are immune compromised through absolutely no fault of our own. AI diseases, cancer, other things. We won't get the full level of protection from the vaccine that healthy people will. We just won't. That's why it's so important to reach herd immunity. Before I was diagnosed with RA (and had to go on an immune suppressing medication to help control it) I was quite healthy. One might even say I would have qualified for the phrase "the picture of health." Normal weight, active, never smoked or consumed alcohol or any illegal substance, had eaten a mostly vegetarian, Mediterranean diet for three decades, perfect BP and cholesterol, etc. And yet . . here I am. And it's a story as old as time. Anyone who thinks something can't happen to them because they do all the right things is living in dreamland. Anyone who wants to believe that everybody who is at high risk of Covid is there because of their own fault is living in dreamland. And anyone who thinks those things is having very un-Christ-like thoughts.

[kokotg]

29 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

My commentary was more about the fact that the virus has swept though the U.S. and has been as deadly as it has been because many people's immune systems are compromised. No, I don't think we can solve these problems in the middle of a pandemic. 

The mortality rate has not been particularly high in the US compared to other countries. We've had so many more deaths than other countries because we've had so many more cases, because we've done less to contain spread than the vast majority of other countries. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

[Shoeless]

I'm fully vaccinated and still masking. But I just booked an appointment with the eye doctor.  I'm waiting on a call back to set up a mammo appointment. I've already had a physical at my GP where she had to get inches from my face to look at a mole that concerned me.  The nurse was only a foot or so away from me when she took vitals and drew blood.  None of that alarmed me, because I know I am vaccinated and so are they.  I'll probably book a hair cut soon; I want to get the medical stuff taken care of first. 

But I'm not hopping on a plane anytime soon or going back into restaurants. I discovered that restaurants aren't that important to me. I didn't like flying that much in the before-times, and I like it even less now that I have to consider Covid.  I know that eventually I will have to get on a plane, but I don't have to do it right now. I'll wait until I have a clear yes to the question of "Is this a good idea?"  

For me, "back to normal" isn't immediate. It's a gradual process. I will participate in more activities as I gain confidence that those activities will not make me sick.