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Why get a COVID Vaccine if it will make no difference in your life?


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47 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I don't have a "normal" immune system either.  I would never ask you to be responsible in any way for my health.  My Dr. suggested an immune boosting vitamin protocol  and to skip the vaccine.  She helped me put Hashimoto's Thyroiditis into remission and I trust her.  As in, I no longer even need thyroid replacement hormones.   Working with her advice works for me - and I won't try to push it on you or your family and friends with immune problems.   

Hmmm...  so what you're saying is that the experts that you believe are right and any others are wrong?  What makes you qualified to decide *for other people* (I trust that you can do you)?  There's a lot of opinions and research out there and it's not easy to sort through everything.  My reaction at the beginning of covid was *extreme* caution/precaution.  We used masks while they were on the news telling people not to use masks, LOL.   With time and new information my concern level has changed.  

 For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did.  Covid and the flu were roughly the same.  I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed.  

 

I recommend you do as your doctor says for you, obviously. We are not saying that *everyone* should have the vaccine, but *everyone that can*. It seems you are in the *exceptions that shouldn't for medical reasons*. Everyone else getting the vaccine is doing so in part to protect you; their actions make it safer for you as well, it does directly affect you. Your advice is *specific* advice, not general; if you don't have specific advice to the contrary then the general applies: people aren't trying to "push it on you".

Agree on a lot of research being out there. Also agree about a lot of opinions -- but, not all opinions are equal. That is why this board has been more concerned with scientific research and expert opinion from people in their respective fields. If you don't have the time to read every research paper that comes out, or the bckground/education to understand it (and frankly, I think many or most of American people simply don't have the ability to go past the abstracts and understand the actual research, sorry, I'm one of them), then we should listen to the experts.

And if a vast majority of experts are saying ABC, with a small minority saying maybeABC and then an even smaller minority saying DFG, why are the DFG people the ones we should, as a society, listen to most? Why is their opinion more valid than 2x or 3x or 4x the number of voices on the other side? And why, after multiple times of this happening when you look at credentials and experience the DFGers are found to be , politely, as less-expert, they are held as equals or superiors? 

Informing people is not the same as controlling people. Having experts tell people about the importance of beneficial societal actions *is* in order to influence actions, but that is not controlling them. The recommendation to get a vaccine for something that can kill you, or make you very sick, and uses you as a vessel to spread to others and can kill them too, is as reasonable precaution and in the person's interest. 

Covid deaths doesn't lessen the sadness of non-covid pneumonia, but this is a whataboutism made to deflect and distract from what we can do to save other lives. Are you saying that because more people die from heart attacks we shouldn't care about lung disease? No, of course you're not, we can address different causes of death in different ways based off the tools/knowledge we have, without taking on high levels of risk.

ALSO you are ignoring how many people have died to Covid and cherry-picking the deaths to a certain age group that everyone acknowledges to be lower risk, and saying that they are being particularly targeted; but the "controlling" media is not aimed only at them, it is aimed to the population as a whole with the age group as a segment. And, again, this segment affects the whole so it is entirely appropriate for them to be talked to as well. 

AND, again, this is ignoring the idea of spread, where just because patient A didn't die, they didn't give it to patient B who got it worse, patient C who was assymptomatic, and patient D who died. By giving patient A a vaccine, you potentially stop the spread to BCD and whoever they in turn spread it to. Just because patient A is 20 years old and didn't die doesn't mean that they wouldn't have benefited from the vaccine, or that the society around them wouldn't benefit either. 

This is a PUBLIC health issue, not a PERSONAL one. It affects us PERSONALLY and we need to make PERSONAL choice to be a part of the solution as best we can, but the solution isn't just for the PERSON, it is also for the PUBLIC.

Edited by Moonhawk
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Pen, that's conspiracy-theory reasoning. This is not the case with any other vaccine, and it is extremely unlikely that this is the case with THIS vaccine. Furthermore, there is no evidence that it IS

To answer the OP’s question: anxiety. Anxiety is the reason someone does a bunch of likely unnecessary things. People who have anxiety control the small part they think they can control because the pa

I believe CDC still asks you to follow a lot of those guidelines, and it makes sense as case numbers are still as high as they were last summer and increasing in some places. I feel safer if everyone

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I don't have a "normal" immune system either.  I would never ask you to be responsible in any way for my health.  My Dr. suggested an immune boosting vitamin protocol  and to skip the vaccine.  She helped me put Hashimoto's Thyroiditis into remission and I trust her.  As in, I no longer even need thyroid replacement hormones.   Working with her advice works for me - and I won't try to push it on you or your family and friends with immune problems.   

Hmmm...  so what you're saying is that the experts that you believe are right and any others are wrong?  What makes you qualified to decide *for other people* (I trust that you can do you)?  There's a lot of opinions and research out there and it's not easy to sort through everything.  My reaction at the beginning of covid was *extreme* caution/precaution.  We used masks while they were on the news telling people not to use masks, LOL.   With time and new information my concern level has changed.  

 For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did.  Covid and the flu were roughly the same.  I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed.  

 

Then you have done what many of us have said over and over again - you've gone to your own medical doctor for advice on your situation.  So yes, you do you. 

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21 minutes ago, kand said:

Can you share where you were looking at this today? Given the near-absence of a flu season this year, this surprises me very much. 
 

And related, the precautions for young people are to reduce the spread so we can get people vaccinated and not increase the number of new variants that could escape the vaccine. For my own young people, I don’t want to risk long term effects of Covid in them. At this point, that known risk far outweighs a hypothetical vaccine risk that hasn’t shown to be an issue to this point. 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm

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10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

"Do your own research!" sounds good. It's important that patients consent to their treatment. 

How exhausting to go through life needing to research everything for ourselves. Think about all of the things in modern life that we rely upon without needing to understand them. How does electricity come to our house? How does a car work?
 

I am probably older than you. I had to pass a test in basic understanding of how a car worked to pass Drivers Ed.  
 

I have tried to understand about electricity and wish I understood more.

 

I think many of these basics are far more important to understand than much of what modern schooling consists of. 
 

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It's not possible to research everything that personally affects us. So, "do your own research!" is very selective. 

Like most people, I suspect you have an inflated opinion of your critical thinking abilities so when you think you are doing your own research, you are actually looking for research that fits your own preconceived opinions. That's normal human behavior. We look for connections, even if there is no connection. We rely on what we witness ourselves. For example, you mention your own observations about the pandemic. 

 

 

I think looking at personal observations is particularly important when what the media says, what the official view is, does not match to reality observed. I do not mean my area versus your area. I mean the official views on why, for example, our local schools were closed were not matching the reality at our local hospitals.  
 

I have 6 doctors in my slightly extended family in 3 states currently, and one who has travelled to help out with situation in Europe, who is currently in Poland, but also has spent significant time in Italy, who I keep up with through his parents, and also keep up with what the ones in USA are reporting, as well as some people who are friends or family in other health care roles.  Two work at major teaching hospitals for their state or region.  The type of place that does get cv19 cases. 
 

I am fairly sure you are correct that I am likely to over-value my ability to do research. That is a reason I tell others to do their own. To come to their own decisions. Also I think people value much more that which they have discovered themselves.  An even bigger reason to tell people to do their own research is the spiritual awakening reason that was alluded to in my reply to Jrap 

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1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I don't have a "normal" immune system either.  I would never ask you to be responsible in any way for my health.  My Dr. suggested an immune boosting vitamin protocol  and to skip the vaccine.  She helped me put Hashimoto's Thyroiditis into remission and I trust her.  As in, I no longer even need thyroid replacement hormones.   Working with her advice works for me - and I won't try to push it on you or your family and friends with immune problems.   

Hmmm...  so what you're saying is that the experts that you believe are right and any others are wrong?  What makes you qualified to decide *for other people* (I trust that you can do you)?  There's a lot of opinions and research out there and it's not easy to sort through everything.  My reaction at the beginning of covid was *extreme* caution/precaution.  We used masks while they were on the news telling people not to use masks, LOL.   With time and new information my concern level has changed.  

 For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did.  Covid and the flu were roughly the same.  I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed.  

 

Whether you ask anyone to be responsible for your own health or not, we are all somewhat responsible for your health. 

No one is saying that we get to decide what experts are correct. However, there is a scientific consensus on these matters. 

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5 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Where are you seeing statistics on pneumonia deaths this year on that link?

Covid deaths are indeed very low for people under 18, and that's great. But people under 18 can still have long term problems from covid that we don't really understand yet and people under 18 don't live in adult-free bubbles. 

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12 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Where are you seeing statistics on pneumonia deaths this year on that link?

Covid deaths are indeed very low for people under 18, and that's great. But people under 18 can still have long term problems from covid that we don't really understand yet and people under 18 don't live in adult-free bubbles. 

Demographic and Geographic characteristics tab.

If you play with the interactive table you get interesting results.

The default display shows 2020-2021

If you look by single year, for that age group you will you will see that for 2021, there have been 58 covid deaths and only 1 flu death.   178 of the flu deaths were in 2020 - possibly (likely) predating the pandemic.

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1 hour ago, wathe said:

Demographic and Geographic characteristics tab.

If you play with the interactive table you get interesting results.

The default display shows 2020-2021

If you look by single year, for that age group you will you will see that for 2021, there have been 58 covid deaths and only 1 flu death.   178 of the flu deaths were in 2020 - possibly (likely) predating the pandemic.

Quoting myself to say that you can also parse by month.  The vast, vast majority of the 178 pediatric flu deaths in 2020 were in Jan, Feb, and Mar 2020.  As makes sense given the very low flu rates this year .

The 2020-2021 default on that CDC table is really misleading.  It does make one assume that they mean 2020-2021 flu season -but they don't.  It's data for all of 2020 and 2021, which includes a large portion of the 2019 -2020 flu season.

Flu has been super low in Canada this year.  We've had 66 cases reported in the whole country, compared to 43,097 at the same time last year.  That's an almost 1000 fold decrease.  Quite a spectacular difference!

FLu death data take longer to collect and report, so we don't have those numbers for the 2020-2021 season yet.  They-re going to be super low, though.

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9 minutes ago, kand said:

I’m trying to understand this footnote on the pneumonia deaths:

[2] Counts of deaths involving pneumonia (J12.0-J18.9) include pneumonia deaths that also involve COVID-19 and exclude pneumonia deaths involving influenza.
 

There are two columns marked with that footnote, the pneumonia column and the pneumonia with Covid column. I’m trying to figure out in light of that footnote what the pneumonia column is indicating. (Though quite honestly, I’m not sure why, other than I like to understand things, because none of this has any bearing on how I feel about protecting my kids from contracting Covid.)

It think it's because early in the pandemic the data were really messy, partly because of lack of testing and partly because covid was just so new and poorly understood.

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45 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I recommend you do as your doctor says for you, obviously. We are not saying that *everyone* should have the vaccine, but *everyone that can*. It seems you are in the *exceptions that shouldn't for medical reasons*. Everyone else getting the vaccine is doing so in part to protect you; their actions make it safer for you as well, it does directly affect you. Your advice is *specific* advice, not general; if you don't have specific advice to the contrary then the general applies: people aren't trying to "push it on you".

 

If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them.  I would not and will not ask them to do that .   This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef.  

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4 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them.  I would not and will not ask them to do that .   This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef.  

Why? 

I will be vaccinated, and so will my family, and none of us are high risk - BUT I hope enough other people get the vaccine to stop the uncontrolled spread of the virus and remove its ability to mutate into a more dangerous form. So heck yes, I would like people to be vaccinated to prevent that from happening because it will protect me, and every other vaccinated person, and also every person who cannot get the vaccine for medical reasons. Why would anybody have a beef with that?

 

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21 minutes ago, kand said:

I’m trying to understand this footnote on the pneumonia deaths:

[2] Counts of deaths involving pneumonia (J12.0-J18.9) include pneumonia deaths that also involve COVID-19 and exclude pneumonia deaths involving influenza.
 

There are two columns marked with that footnote, the pneumonia column and the pneumonia with Covid column. I’m trying to figure out in light of that footnote what the pneumonia column is indicating. (Though quite honestly, I’m not sure why, other than I like to understand things, because none of this has any bearing on how I feel about protecting my kids from contracting Covid.)

It would be interesting to compare pediatric pneumonia deaths in 2020 with previous years.

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16 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them.  I would not and will not ask them to do that .   This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef.  

I guess I have a beef when people don't want to acknowledge that their decision and actions affect others and society at large. We are not islands, why do we insist to act like we are?

I don't know if I have a strong feeling towards WHAT the decision is (though I think there is an better risk-benefit option for a person on a personal level), but more importantly I want people to acknowledge that their choices WILL affect those around them. Not in a "sure, a Butterfly in China..." type of way, but in a  real and potentially impactful way that can affect actual lives that you know or that matter to those close to you. Not in a "well I'm being careful so I *could* but I probably *won't*"; just a pure realization that we are only able to control so much, and choosing to put the greater good above our personal wants does not take away our freedoms or agency.

eta: your quote makes it sounds like people are SELFISHLY wanting others to get vaccinated not because they care about the other person but only because they care about themselves. Rather, this might be subtle, I think it's that we care about the good of society more than my personal risk. I don't care if my DH gets the vaccine for my sake, but for his sake, and for others who he may come into contact with.

Edited by Moonhawk
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3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Why? 

I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others.  If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid.   

For those who would not require by law, I'm only annoyed with those that would claim others are "selfish" for not choosing to do something that they think protects them/others.  

For people who get the vaccine because they want it, and they others to get it, and it makes them feel like life is safer, I feel no animosity.  Seems very golden-rule-ish to me.  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others.  If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid.   

Nobody is going to require by law that you be vaccinated. The US hasn't had a law enforcing any vaccine. But any business or organization is free to set parameters for the participation of vaccinated and unvaccinated folks in their activity, with the goal of protecting people. The "vaccine passport" does nothing but create secure documentation that allows a business or organization to obtain this information so they can set rules for participation. 

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I Can’t find good link to what I wanted to share with you -  It was the opening film to the Lazarus Initiative    - like this, but it won’t play now - https://simonparkes.wixsite.com/home   I expect you will find much of this type of thing very strange and probably outside of your current beliefs. And it may be true, or not.  More likely, imo, a mixture as people try to reach for the dawning horizon.  “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), 

 

I know better than to ever click on one of Pen’s links, but for those who don’t, just know that Simon Parkes, in addition to claiming that his “real mother” is a nine foot tall green space alien with eight fingers and that he himself fathered an alien baby named Zarka, is Q-anon related. With all the bonkers claims that go along with it (if the space alien stuff didn’t clue you in).

Pen, you need help.

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4 minutes ago, kand said:

I have an issue with people who could get the vaccine, but choose not to, yet are counting on the current acute phase of the pandemic being ended by everyone else getting the vaccine. 

I can understand that and it hits on a major issue - not everyone agrees on whether or not covid-19 warrants our current response.    Hard to agree on solutions when people don't agree on what the problem is.... 

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4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Nobody is going to require by law that you be vaccinated. The US hasn't had a law enforcing any vaccine. But any business or organization is free to set parameters for the participation of vaccinated and unvaccinated folks in their activity, with the goal of protecting people. The "vaccine passport" does nothing but create secure documentation that allows a business or organization to obtain this information so they can set rules for participation. 

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health.  Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be....   really hard.   If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited.   

I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world.  

 

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5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Nobody is going to require by law that you be vaccinated. The US hasn't had a law enforcing any vaccine. But any business or organization is free to set parameters for the participation of vaccinated and unvaccinated folks in their activity, with the goal of protecting people. The "vaccine passport" does nothing but create secure documentation that allows a business or organization to obtain this information so they can set rules for participation. 

Beyond the civically admirable goal of protecting people, businesses are also going to be eager to respond to what will surely be -- at least in the short term -- an incredibly robust market for guaranteed-fully-vaccinated indoor events and activities. 

I got an email yesterday from a spin studio that I used to attend, touting how nearly all of their instructors have been or are in the process of getting vaccinated.  I thought well, if I KNEW that all of the other attendees in a class were vaccinated, maybe I'd go back sometime...

 

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40 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others.  If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid.   

For those who would not require by law, I'm only annoyed with those that would claim others are "selfish" for not choosing to do something that they think protects them/others.  

For people who get the vaccine because they want it, and they others to get it, and it makes them feel like life is safer, I feel no animosity.  Seems very golden-rule-ish to me.  

 

 

This is not a golden rule scenario. That works in instances where the impact is directly felt and seen immediately. This is a dangerous ruler to measure by in this circumstance because you aren't [hopefully] actively trying to get people sick but could be anyway; unintended action. The golden rule has to do with intentional actions towards others and personal interactions, not public health decisions.

I want people to make informed decisions. Not decisions based on their feelings or their politics or because a non-expert media person tells them how to FEEL about the vaccine, but a decision based on scientific facts, risk-benefit analysis, their particular medical history, and yes, knowledge of how we are interconnected.

If taking all of this into account and the best answer for them and their health is to not take the vaccine, so be it. There will be people where this is the best choice. But if people are choosing not to vaccinate simply because "I'm not afraid. It's my body and doesn't affect anyone else because they can do whatever they want." <--- this is where I get all uppity. I won't call someone "selfish" because that implies I understand their motive, but I will assume shortsightedness, misinformed, or having poor decision skills (since these are the most charitable options).

Now the vaccine passport is ironically closer to the Golden Rule than not, since countries would say, "We will not allow you to treat us this way" and keep one out if they would put the country at risk. Making the decision for themselves about what risk they are willing to take on: the flip side, you could say, of "treat others as you want to be treated." Why are you free to make a decision for yourself without regarding the consequences to others, THEN are also free to tell others (other countries no less!) that they have to let you travel there, which is a privilege instead of a right?

Edited by Moonhawk
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21 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health. 

 

I very much doubt that the DMV is ever going to set such a requirement, precisely because it is a government entity and needs to be widely open to the general public as both a matter of law and public policy.  

Cruise ships, concert venues, karaoke bars, and gyms, OTOH, don't serve public functions and their owners are going to make decisions based on what they think will make them the most money.  And private organizations are going to do whatever they want.  I am curious to see if my synagogue, for example, is going to set a vaccination requirement for attending the big fall holiday services.  (FWIW, my money is on yes.)

 

 

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22 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health.  Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be....   really hard.   If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited.   

It is to hope that we will, in addition to the vaccine, have reliable, robust, quick testing so that people will have an alternative way to demonstrate they are free of disease. (Unless we have that, you don't know whether you carry a pathogen that has the potential of killing your fellow human. )
I would consider it very reasonable and reassuring if, for example, the DMV were to provide fast testing. If other countries can roll those out so folks can get a haircut, we could certainly have that for attending mandated-by-law activities like DMV and jury duty (don't get me started on my experience with the latter)

Quote

I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world. 

Every person's freedom stops at the point where they are endangering the safety of another human.  

Edited by regentrude
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31 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Beyond the civically admirable goal of protecting people, businesses are also going to be eager to respond to what will surely be -- at least in the short term -- an incredibly robust market for guaranteed-fully-vaccinated indoor events and activities. 

Oh heck yes! I would be much more ready to engage in public life if I knew the other participants were fully vaccinated.

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45 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health.  Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be....   really hard.   If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited.   

I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world.  

 

People are forced to do all kinds of things in our supposedly free country (USA). It's against the law for women to go topless in most of the USA. Why? If there any public health interest served by requiring women to wear a shirt? 

Most private businesses require people to wear shirts and shoes to enter. Does that mean that we don't live in a free country? 

State laws require that we wear seatbelts and have car insurance. There are traffic laws. Most American cities have zoning laws which limits what you can do what with your own property. 

AFAIK, all public schools in the USA require certain vaccinations to enroll. Private businesses require vaccinations for their employees. Private businesses and schools have dress codes. 

We are subject to many limitations on our behavior. Why the outrage about hypothetical requirements to get the COVID vaccine? 

So what if your life is hard because Delta Airlines requires you to be vaccinated to fly. Their airplanes, their choice. If France wants to require Americans to be vaccinated to enter - their country, their choice. 

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49 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I very much doubt that the DMV is ever going to set such a requirement, precisely because it is a government entity and needs to be widely open to the general public as both a matter of law and public policy.  

Cruise ships, concert venues, karaoke bars, and gyms, OTOH, don't serve public functions and are going to make decisions based on what they think will make them the most money.  And private organizations are going to do whatever they want.  I am curious to see if my synagogue, for example, is going to set a vaccination requirement for attending the big fall holiday services.  (FWIW, my money is on yes.)

 

 

Yes, I agree.  Private businesses can require vaccines as part of their freedom in a free, liberal society.  Folks can say they will only attend concerts, go on cruise ships if others have the vaccine as part of their freedom.  Whether venues do that is going to be based on profit analysis, I am sure.

But no, I doubt the DMV will ever require a vaccine. 

People will  have freedom to choose, as they do in our country.  But freedom to choose does not mean there are no boundaries or consequences.  Rarely in life is there any choice that doesn't carry risk, boundaries or consequences.  It's not like anyone ever just gets to live their life however they feel without shutting doors of some kind.

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18 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Influenzas also have strains that are more infections, cause more serious complications, result in more deaths.   My perspective is that this new coronavirus is now endemic and that we're going to have to move forward with it being part of the diseases that humans have to deal with.  

We deal with endemic flu by...drum roll...vaccinating! And if we have a pandemic flu, you can bet they'd be rolling out an effective vaccination/booster for it with all due haste. With covid, the jury is out on how long vaccination will last, but there are signs it could be for a long time. With the flu, we know it changes seasonally with some strains becoming endemic. But we still vaccinate for it, and most flu shots protect against multiple strains for this reason. 

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4 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

 

 For example, Since the news is focusing on the push to vaccinate and control the behavior of young people I was just trying to look at some of the CDC data this morning for U18yrs and it looks like non-covid pneumonia resulted in 3x as many deaths over the last year as covid did.  Covid and the flu were roughly the same.  I don't see how that justifies recommendations I see being pushed.  

 

This is both because 18 yr olds seem to spread the virus just as much as older adults, even though they don't get as sick, and because the new variants seem to hit younger people harder so the death and hospitalization stats may soon change. But even if they don't, vaccinating 18 yr olds protects older people they interact with, as well as younger people who can't be vaccinated. 

And of course, death is NOT the only bad outcome. 

2 hours ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

If people choose, even in part, to get a vaccine because they think it protects other people that is up to them.  I would not and will not ask them to do that .   This might be subtle, but people who want others to get the vaccine because they want to be protected by other people is where I have a beef.  

Well, I think asking others to do something that is fairly minor to them but might save another person's life is not a huge ask. 

 

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re "vaccine passports," "nudges," and private businesses' rights vs individual consumers' rights

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I should be more specific - I have a beef with anyone who would require it by law using the justification that we have to force people to protect others.  If a "vaccine passport" wasn't on the table I would be content with people going about believing whatever they want and acting in ways they choose w/ regard to covid...

Now that the brouhaha over Dr Seuss and Cancel Culture has subsided for the moment at least, looks like "vaccine passport" is emerging as the culture war topic du jour.

New York City went first, with the Excelsior Pass.  The purpose of it is to Reopen!! the Economy!! (which I'm old enough to remember, once was a clarion call) by allowing large entertainment and arts venues (private, non-profit, and municipal) to OPT IN to participate and individuals to OPT IN to demonstrate either recent negative test results or vaccination status... in order to boost patron confidence and get attendance and money rolling again.

It is in response to venues who WANT to have and use it, in recognition that many of their patrons will only come back if they have and use it. Will some patrons decline to come if the pass is required? Yes, but the private actor calculation is that more patrons will decline to come unless they have it.  Their venue, their calculation of where patron sentiment is, their choice.  I understand that it was Madison Square Garden that was the first and greatest proponent of the plan.

I expect the basic concept *will* extend to yoga studios and gyms and other private businesses.  Their business, their assessment of their own patron base, their choice on how to navigate this limbo we're staring down. 

We've had lively debates on these boards about private businesses' rights vs public accommodation laws; see: gay wedding cake.  Folks who don't want to vaccinate are not, currently, a legally protected class. 

 

That said...

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

This is a really HUGE topic that I'm not going to be able to fully engage in, but let's say that I had to show proof of vaccination to go to the DMV because the CDC/local health agency said so under public health.  Even if I wasn't required by law to get a vaccine, life would be....   really hard.   If that were to come to pass, perfectly healthy people without a communicable disease could be limited. ...

... I think it is highly unlikely that government agencies like DMV will require proof of vaccination for public services, even though (as has also come up often on these boards) driving is a privilege not a right.  Certainly not under EUA.

(Or that a vaccine passport would be a requirement for voting, which IS a Constitutionally enshrined right...)

 

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

I very much doubt that the DMV is ever going to set such a requirement, precisely because it is a government entity and needs to be widely open to the general public as both a matter of law and public policy.  

Cruise ships, concert venues, karaoke bars, and gyms, OTOH, don't serve public functions and their owners are going to make decisions based on what they think will make them the most money.  And private organizations are going to do whatever they want.  I am curious to see if my synagogue, for example, is going to set a vaccination requirement for attending the big fall holiday services.  (FWIW, my money is on yes.)

I'm on the board of my synagogue and this is an animated topic of conversation right now. It's weirdly erudite and hypothetical, since literally everyone I know in the community is either fully or partially vaccinated or, if in the youngest age cohort that just became eligible this week, champing at the bit to get appointment slots. But there's a lot of debate about *requiring.*

 

 

1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

...I think that the "nudge" philosophy of making it hard for people to do things so that they'll comply is antithetical to living in a free, liberal, world. 

A "nudge" is actually a bit different. A "nudge" is a small POSITIVE incentive that, well, nudges folks toward a choice that the nudge-r deems as desirable. It's not about making it "hard," but rather the opposite, to give a small positive reward. Krispy Kreme's offer of free donuts to anyone who shows up with a just-vaccinated card is an example of a "nudge."  If CVS gave a small gift card to everyone they vaccinated, that would constitute a nudge.

 

(If Madison Square Garden were to host vaccination events and then gave out basketball game tickets to games after full immunization kicked in, that would be an extremely attractive nudge that might bring in a significant cohort of people who might not otherwise bother, and I hope someone in management is reading this #genius suggestion; you're welcome.)

 

Edited by Pam in CT
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I would LOVE some kind of public acknowledgement of vaccination status, personally. I had to call and ask the pediatric dentist if their staff was, I have no idea which physical therapists if any at my medical center are, etc. And if a massage place or nail salon advertised as having all it's workers vaccinated I'd love that! And once everyone can gte vaccinated who wants to, I'd definitely prefer to go to a place that requires vaccination (or medical exemption). 

With masking, I can see who is or isn't following guidelines, and what percentage of people in a building are masked, etc. Can't with vaccines. 

Edited by ktgrok
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3 hours ago, kand said:

I don’t see this supporting what you indicated. This shows there has been one pediatric flu death this season. The 2019-20 season was a bad one and had 198 pediatric flu deaths. Since Jan 2020, there have been 295 pediatric Covid19 deaths. 

The Covid numbers are over a time period of what would be >2 flu seasons, in a 100% naiive population. Influenza occurs in a population where many of us already have some level of immunity to whatever strain circulates in a season, even children.

I think its a pretty strong argument that influenza is a more serious threat to children than Covid. At the least, Covid is not more threatening than the flu for them.


 

 

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7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I would LOVE some kind of public acknowledgement of vaccination status, personally. I had to call and ask the pediatric dentist if their staff was, I have no idea which physical therapists if any at my medical center are, etc. And if a massage place or nail salon advertised as having all it's workers vaccinated I'd love that! And once everyone can gte vaccinated who wants to, I'd definitely prefer to go to a place that requires vaccination (or medical exemption). 

That sounds nice, but where and when does it end? I do not think anyone but myself and my doctor has any business knowing my medical information. 
I’ve been vaccinated for Covid as well as everything else recommended for me in the US. 
 

But I don’t think this general idea of public disclosure of vaccination status, or requirement to do so, leads anywhere good. 

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1 minute ago, Penelope said:

That sounds nice, but where and when does it end? I do not think anyone but myself and my doctor has any business knowing my medical information. 
I’ve been vaccinated for Covid as well as everything else recommended for me in the US. 
 

But I don’t think this general idea of public disclosure of vaccination status, or requirement to do so, leads anywhere good. 

I wasn't talking about some federal requirement, but about businesses choosing to brag about having people vaccinated.

I was remembering how in medical settings it is common o have some kind of flu vaccine acknowledgement on their badge. Same idea would be great for Covid, but haven't seen anything like it yet. 

 

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Our church just announced that they might be returning to indoor worship after August 15, IF 75% of the city is vaccinated (I'm guessing they mean adults, although the newsletter says people) AND if the city wide positivity rate is under 3%.  

Am I the only person who hears "Do your own research," and wants to reply, "It's not ethical to run scientific studies out of your house?"  

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3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Our church just announced that they might be returning to indoor worship after August 15, IF 75% of the city is vaccinated (I'm guessing they mean adults, although the newsletter says people) AND if the city wide positivity rate is under 3%.  

Am I the only person who hears "Do your own research," and wants to reply, "It's not ethical to run scientific studies out of your house?"  

I'm dying laughing and totally stealing this response. 

 

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11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I wasn't talking about some federal requirement, but about businesses choosing to brag about having people vaccinated.

I was remembering how in medical settings it is common o have some kind of flu vaccine acknowledgement on their badge. Same idea would be great for Covid, but haven't seen anything like it yet. 

 

I’m on board with that, but wouldn’t that involve employers asking employees for this information? There could be pressure involved. I am only in favor if a small business has everyone voluntarily share their status and then they advertise it with their consent.

I hope as many people get vaccinations as possible. However, as safe as they are, it is a medical intervention that carries some non-zero amount of risk for certain folks, and I don’t believe anyone should be coerced into having one. 
And I want to maintain our prior societal expectation that medical information remains private.

Edited by Penelope
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Actually, circling back on this idea of the "requirements" of the vaccine. It is being spun out of proportion from "international travel" [where you don't have a right to go anyway] and "private businesses" to ---> (1) "all travel" and "all business" and then --->  (2) "all government agencies" and then finally to  ---> (3) "every place I need to go and do, I will be stuck in home and denied my rights as a citizen to live!"

THEN using this spin-out as a justification to do something. When used to argue against getting a vaccine, it's not a good look, because the PRIMARY question you should be asking yourself is if it's the scientifically/other-factored right choice. Not make up hypothetical situations where maybe you'll be punished for a certain choice.

There is no basis to believe that jumps in spin-out 1 will happen, let alone 2 or 3. Using 3 to justify or explain a decision is an example of fear mongering and poor decision making. 

It's almost like you're looking for a reason to NOT do something you know you should.

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41 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

I think it is highly unlikely that government agencies like DMV will require proof of vaccination for public services, even though (as has also come up often on these boards) driving is a privilege not a right.  Certainly not under EUA.

Just want to point out quickly that while driving is a privilege, not a right, the DMV is also where you go to get non driving governmental identification cards, as well.  

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re driving is not a right, but access to ID needed to vote in some states, is

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Just want to point out quickly that while driving is a privilege, not a right, the DMV is also where you go to get non driving governmental identification cards, as well.  

That is a good point.  My state doesn't require DMV-issued ID to vote -- there are a number of other forms of ID accepted as proof of identity -- but plenty of states do.  Another reason why "vaccine passport" to enter DMV is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

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1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm on the board of my synagogue and this is an animated topic of conversation right now. It's weirdly erudite and hypothetical, since literally everyone I know in the community is either fully or partially vaccinated or, if in the youngest age cohort that just became eligible this week, champing at the bit to get appointment slots. But there's a lot of debate about *requiring.*

Yeah, this is where we are too.  Every single community member I know is either vaccinated or desperate to get vaccinated.  But high holiday services are so many people together for such a long time... I think that our rabbi may ultimately just pull rank and say that this is a matter of Jewish law (which of course it is).  I am actually most concerned about how we are going to make sure that children continue to be part of the community while also keeping them (and the rest of the congregation) safe during this period of however many months that we are waiting for pediatric vaccines.

 

Edited by JennyD
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1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

re driving is not a right, but access to ID needed to vote in some states, is

That is a good point.  My state doesn't require DMV-issued ID to vote -- there are a number of other forms of ID accepted as proof of identity -- but plenty of states do.  Another reason why "vaccine passport" to enter DMV is vanishingly unlikely to happen.

It's not just that you need photo ID in order to vote.  It's that you need photo ID in order to do a whole host of things......including to get your 16 and 17 year olds vaccinated.  

(This is fresh, because we just got the legal name change for my 17 year old, but in order to change it with social security, I was informed that I have to send the original name change from the court, my child's original social security card, original birth certificate, and my actual driver's license, to prove I am their legal parent, through the mail to social security administration office, which would leave me without any form of legal identification as well as preventing me from legally driving for however long it would be until the SSA mailed my documents back.  Assuming they do.  I've decided I simply cannot do that until after they've been vaccinated, which pushes everything back, and means I'm not sure we can travel out of town this summer without my driver's license, since I'm the only adult who can drive on interstates.)

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