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Why get a COVID Vaccine if it will make no difference in your life?


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12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

OP, I do not know your history and I do not expect yours in return for telling you mine.

I am first generation immigrant from an Asian country, from a family that was devastated by TB in my grandparents generation. Young mothers with children died so much so that my grandparents raised some nieces and nephews on both sides who were parceled out to families. The husbands of the women who died never recovered. They could not pick up the pieces, it could be several reasons I do not know for they were not diagnosed or given help. 

My grandparents were uber clean. If you think sanitizing using bleach is over the line, I grew up with my grandparents boiling sheets to wash them in we had fever to sanitize, cleaning coins in warm water, any coin we used. This was two generations after TB and the vaccine was found. No one in my family died of TB after the vaccine. I used to laugh at them because I found it funny because who does that. Now I find myself thinking of them while I sanitize with bleach, my grandmother especially as my heart hurts for them because it speaks of so much trauma that lasted a lifetime. I was raised with teaching me how to clean food, clean floors, clean, clean, clean. They were fastidious. 
 

 

There was a TB outbreak in NYC when I lived there. And it was a city where it was nearly impossible to keep things so clean like that, or at least, I know no one who did. 
 

I think most people did not catch TB with the help of the sterilizing effects of sunlight plus especially the benefits of fairly good nutrition and immune systems.   
 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The questioning person in me looked for efficacy, evaluated the risks, wanted all information because I wanted to know, I wanted to question and have the information to make an informed decision.  
 

 Good. 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

My father just went and took a vaccine. He was so grateful. I asked him why because I was studying up on the vaccines he had access to and wanted to help him and my mom make an informed decision. My parents were one of the first to go and get the vaccine after it was opened up to the general public after healthcare workers. My dad told me he wanted to take it because he grew up with cousins who lost their parents and so he knew a vaccine, any vaccine had risks but he also knew the benefits and wanted to do his part. I cried.

 

that’s a moving sweet story

 

i hope he has made the correct decision 

 

I am not sure what vaccine they are using in India.   Maybe it is one with a longer history of that type of vaccine being used relatively safely. 
 

 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I also come from a family with a lot of health care workers around the globe. I have seen first hand the experiences of them while they isolated from family, how they dealt with death of patients and colleagues, the fear, the helplessness, the guilt. My BIL is one of the strongest people I know, he sobbed to my husband almost every day after his shift for a period of time. He was one of the first to take the vaccine. His emotional health is so much better now that he can be with his family again.

 

my family also has a lot of health care workers 

the dilemma about whether to take one of the vaccines or not is especially significant for them

 

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Unless you are a person who does not interact with anyone, does not go to a doctor, have no family or friends visit you, hug a friend or hold hands with them I cannot think of a scenario where a vaccine will not make your life easier. What you describe is not my reality or anyone else's I know. 


Easier, at least short term, yes. It probably makes life easier short term. For those who don’t have bad early reactions anyway.

 

”Easier” is not always the best.   
 

I again urge everyone to do the research for him or herself. Either choice could be a life/death one. 

 
 

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Pen, that's conspiracy-theory reasoning. This is not the case with any other vaccine, and it is extremely unlikely that this is the case with THIS vaccine. Furthermore, there is no evidence that it IS

To answer the OP’s question: anxiety. Anxiety is the reason someone does a bunch of likely unnecessary things. People who have anxiety control the small part they think they can control because the pa

I believe CDC still asks you to follow a lot of those guidelines, and it makes sense as case numbers are still as high as they were last summer and increasing in some places. I feel safer if everyone

10 hours ago, Pen said:


In the event that Geert Vanden Bossche and others are correct that getting the vaccine turns people into breeding grounds for mutated (and perhaps more deadly) strains of virus, it is probably a good thing that many people getting the vaccine are being ultra careful, double masking, bleaching, and more. 
 

I had thought everyone I personally knew who had gotten vaccinated was doing okay with it other than temporary reactions, but I am no longer sure that’s the case. 


to those of you who are putting “confused” emojis, if confused by first part, I suggest you use his name to look up his open letter . Or perhaps also videos.

 

if you are confused by my second paragraph, my father took a turn for the worse after his second dose, but it is not clear if the vaccine was causative or contributory or totally irrelevant to the problems. 

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11 minutes ago, kand said:

I don’t know if your “promising” includes this week’s data, but I think it looks more than promising after this week’s news. Real world data on essential workers vaccinated with Pfizer or Moderna found a 90% reduction in being infected at all (meaning the vaccinated participants continued to test negative every week throughout the study). If people aren’t carrying the virus, they can’t transmit it, so I feel extremely encouraged by that that the mRNA vaccines are looking like they will squash transmission. (Among the small number vaccinated participants who did still get a positive test in that time period, none of them had serious illness.)

 

eta: Reading this back, it almost sounds like I’m being rude or something with my use of promising in quotes 😳. I hope it’s not coming across that way. I expect it’s likely you’ve already read the study I’m talking about, Pam, but I wanted to make sure the info was there for people who may not have seen it.

No worries!  Yes, I saw this week's study and I really do mean promising, quotes or no! 

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40 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

In my own life, being vaccinated will change my interactions only in that I will now feel okay being umasked in a small gathering of other fully vaccinated people. I will continue to mask in the general public. I will, however, possibly attend church (masking and social distancing in place), get a massage (masked), and start buying my own groceries instead of ordering delivery. 

I have unvaccinated kids so still spraying down my groceries with peroxide since they will get into them immediately. 

Yes, once I am vaccinated, I will finally feel comfortable going back to my very tiny (less than 20 people!) church where not everyone is careful with masks.  Though many of those are now vaccinated so once I am as well, I will go back after a year of attending only online.   ETA:  I will still mask though. 

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Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Yes, once I am vaccinated, I will finally feel comfortable going back to my very tiny (less than 20 people!) church where not everyone is careful with masks.  Though many of those are now vaccinated so once I am as well, I will go back after a year of attending only online. 

Yup, I was thinking of going back this Easter, but going without the kids seems...weird. Not sure yet. 

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1 hour ago, Pen said:

yet they each went in different directions with regard to the mRNA vaccine for themselves. Neither of them blindly.  

That’s really interesting.

 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

other science training besides veterinary degree . That could be looked up instead of using someone else’s somewhat “flame” post as your full information . Dont you think?

Just wanted to make sure you kept scrolling to see that I did this. I didn’t delete my knee doctor thing, but in my defense I was running out the door for another HBOT, ran out of time. I agree the arguments are complex and that he has plenty of room to have an opinion and put it out there. It left me wondering why there wasn’t commercial interest in his idea given the amount of money being thrown at covid research right now. It almost seemed like an idea not yet ready . The arguments were very complex.

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Resiliant, this thread is not your fault. There's no reason it should've been anywhere near to a hot-button issue for anybody. Don't worry about it.

Pen, as for your repeated hypocritical admonition to check your sources - part of that is asking "Is this information coming from some random nobody I've never heard of, or from a respected and reputable institution?" Sure, it's possible that the nobody is right and the well-known university is wrong - but I wouldn't put money on it.

I once read a memoir by somebody who grew up in Scientology. Pretty harrowing childhood, actually. As an adolescent, she was often tasked with community outreach, in pairs. Unsurprisingly, most people dislike being "reached out to" by the Scientologists, and she had to deal with a lot of strong responses, to which she and her partner would reply, as they'd been taught, "Think for yourself!" They said it so often and so vehemently that it took her many years to realize that, at that point in her life, she'd never done that.

All this to say, it's one thing to say "Check your sources, do your own research!" but you shouldn't get so worked up in saying it that you ignore your own advice.

I am sorry about your father, though.

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4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Just for a little twist, turns out this Vanden Bossche dude has a phd in virology as well as his DVM, specializes in *vaccine development*, and has been employed by some big orgs in that field. So his knowledge isn't *so* tertiary or off he wall or extrapolated. 

https://be.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche

I'm not saying I know anything more about the validity of his arguments, just thinking if vaccines are what he works with all day (not kitty cats), he has room to have an opinion. In fact, it's kind of interesting if MDs (not specialists in virology, much more broad training?) are knocking the views of someone with a phd in virology. 

This guy has not published any research in the last 25 years, and most of what he did publish involved animals (his last two papers, in 1995, involved monkeys and pigeons). If you look at his Linked In profile, he claims to have been managing director for a vaccine company called VARECO, which has no address or even a city — the location is listed as "Europe" — and an online search does not turn up any evidence of such a company existing. He claims to have been head of vaccine development for the German Centre for Infection Research, but his resume says he was only there for 5 months — I wonder why? He only lasted a year at GAVI. The vast majority of his career was spent as a lowly adjunct teaching veterinary medicine.

He has never published a single paper on vaccines, yet he claims to be the founder and CEO of a company that is developing a totally new vaccine technology — and he wants the entire world to stop using the current vaccines and wait for his much better vaccine... that doesn't actually exist or have any data.  And his made-up "theories" about why the current vaccines are dangerous have been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. No one takes this guy seriously except anti-vaxx conspiracy nuts.

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5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

debunked. No one takes this guy seriously except anti-vaxx conspiracy nuts.

You didn’t read the link I gave, because they question his arguments too. 

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53 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

There was a TB outbreak in NYC when I lived there. And it was a city where it was nearly impossible to keep things so clean like that, or at least, I know no one who did. 
 

I think most people did not catch TB with the help of the sterilizing effects of sunlight plus especially the benefits of fairly good nutrition and immune systems.   
 

 Good. 

 

that’s a moving sweet story

 

i hope he has made the correct decision 

 

I am not sure what vaccine they are using in India.   Maybe it is one with a longer history of that type of vaccine being used relatively safely. 
 

 

 

my family also has a lot of health care workers 

the dilemma about whether to take one of the vaccines or not is especially significant for them

 


Easier, at least short term, yes. It probably makes life easier short term. For those who don’t have bad early reactions anyway.

 

”Easier” is not always the best.   
 

I again urge everyone to do the research for him or herself. Either choice could be a life/death one. 

 
 

Sorry for the mega wall of text that follows, for some reason cannot embed replies.

My family usually ate healthy. Organic vegetables because pesticides were not used even when I was a child. I was taught to cut out vegetables that contained bugs. Good meat, yogurt, spices, ginger, garlic, onion always. Golden milk, pulses, beans, whole grains . Eat the rainbow. Almost all nutrition practices touted as healthy currently, I was raised with. Yet people died from TB. What helped and saved people was the vaccine and herd immunity.

I have seen the secondary effects of targeted vaccination on leprosy because of the TB vaccine. I have also seen a version of polio caused by vaccines which is rare but still happens. Point being a vaccine has risks always, even a stable vaccine that has been around for decades across generations. But a vaccine is mostly always good than bad and an important defense in public health.

My parents and inlaws took the Coviccine vaccine, wholly developed in India. They are close to taking the second dose. I have others in my family who have taken Covishield the local name for the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine, both doses and do not have complications. I have also had family from across the globe take the Chinese vaccine and Pfizer. Again, no complications for all except some pain in the site and chills which taking 2 paracetamols usually fixes. 

Vaccine is more than short term to me. Having a vaccine enables me to travel. Helps me spend time with my parents. I have friends who lost their parents, both COVID and non-COVID and seeing them go through that extra layer of mourning where they could not travel to see their parents funeral was horrifying to me. Part of moving away is accepting we may not be always there to say a final goodbye, but we have always travelled for funerals in 5 hours after hearing the news of our grandparents death. None of it would be possible without the vaccine. Looking for a COVID testing area and having that turn around time is impossible in a day.

Having a vaccine is not only short term but mental health wise and quality of life wise I have seen huge improvements in my own huge family circle. 

I agree with people need to do research.

Hope you are keeping well @Pen

 

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5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You didn’t read the link I gave, because they question his arguments too. 

I did read the link. I didn't say that all anti-vaxxers take him seriously, just that only anti-vaxx conspiracy types take him seriously. The fact that even some anti-vaxx groups recognize that his arguments have no basis in fact shows how implausible his claims really are.

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26 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I once read a memoir by somebody who grew up in Scientology. Pretty harrowing childhood, actually. As an adolescent, she was often tasked with community outreach, in pairs. Unsurprisingly, most people dislike being "reached out to" by the Scientologists, and she had to deal with a lot of strong responses, to which she and her partner would reply, as they'd been taught, "Think for yourself!" They said it so often and so vehemently that it took her many years to realize that, at that point in her life, she'd never done that.

All this to say, it's one thing to say "Check your sources, do your own research!" but you shouldn't get so worked up in saying it that you ignore your own advice.

Every single time I see the phrase "Do your own research!" on social media it's attached to a post written by someone whose "research" sources consist of Facebook, YouTube, and various conspiracy websites. Basically what that phrase means is "Don't believe the scientists, epidemiologists, and public health experts — go watch a bunch of random YouTube videos to discover The Real Truth™ that [insert your preferred boogeyman] don't want you know about [insert your favorite conspiracy theory]!" 

Funny how they never seem to say "Here's a link to multiple peer-reviewed articles in reputable scientific journals to back up my claims. Please read these to assist you in making an informed choice." 

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DH gets his second Moderna shot today. I get my first this Saturday. The vaccines are not 100 percent effective. There is no way to tell how much immunity they'll provide to the individual person. DH is greatly immunosuppressed. No shot will provide 90+ percent coverage for him. I live with him and provide caregiving services to my mother, who has stage 4 colon cancer. She also gets her second Moderna shot tomorrow. She lives with an elderly gentleman who has diabetes and is obese. He is fully vaccinated. I have a 13-year old daughter. She is not vaccinated. We will continue to mask, social distance, not eat out, and clean our groceries until Covid is well and truly in hand. It simply is not. There are variants that may or may not be impeded by our vaccines. There will be new variants too. It is not worth my DH's life, nor my daughter's, nor my mother's, nor anyone else's (even those of people I don't know) to be lacksadaisical just because we got our shots. (We detest Lysoling our groceries, by the way. Hate it!) The immunity these shots provide will run out at some point. One can easily be caught unaware at this moment. We will also keep doing it all to continue helping those who refuse to protect themselves...those who refuse to help protect us. 

Here's an example of why we'll continue our vigilance. My uncle's mother got her second shot this past week. She had been feeling unwell since a couple of days before but got the shot anyway because she didn't want to have to reschedule it. Guess what? She has Covid (likely got it a week before her second shot). She was taken off life support two days ago. Can you imagine the disappointment? She was so close to being fully vaccinated. So close to potentially surviving this thing. Now, she's waiting to die. (Scratch that. She died last night. 😔)

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I agree there is a lot going on in this thread!  To the original OP:  I'd guess anxiety is the cause.

About various other topics:  I've never understood the "fear" part.   (I don't mean anxiety -- that's different.)   I do not personally know a single person who lives in actual fear because of Covid.  They're careful, not fearful, about how they live their lives.  To me, their decision to get a vaccine is almost the opposite of fear. They're getting it even if they're not 100% sure how it'll affect them, and knowing they might feel sick for a day or two!  But they're doing it to help others, or perhaps they are high-risk themselves.  And so far, every person I've spoken with in my various circles -- from both political parties, and even if they initially questioned the vaccine -- is getting vaccinated if they haven't already.  Many are doctors and scientists.  (Come to think of it, all of my relatives who are doctors and scientists are also Republicans, and they've all been vaccinated.)  My brother is a scientist and consultant for one of the Covid teams at Mayo, and he has colleagues who have worked with the Moderna vaccine.  He's familiar with their process and protocol.  I'm only throwing that out there because some people are giving personal anecdotes about people they know with expertise, so I thought I would too.  😆   I get my second dose of Pfizer this Saturday.

I also wanted to mention that RNA drugs already exist.  It's actually a very exciting field, and holds some potential for helping with as of yet incurable diseases.  Wouldn't that be great!

Lastly, this is one example of what the vaccine is doing for our family.  My mother lives in a care center.  So many people were dying of Covid there, until they got the strict mandates in place.  My mother's wing has around 20 people, and 11 of them died of Covid in a period of about three months.  Now that everyone there has been vaccinated, they've been able to open things up again.  I'm able to hold my mother's hand again.  They test the residents for Covid twice/week, and not one person has gotten Covid since being vaccinated, even with things opening up and seeing people again.

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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I know you don't want a debate so I do not expect you to engage with my response but your response needs a response. 

First, your allegation that you will receive "party-line responses" is extremely offensive and completely inaccurate. The virus is not political. 

Second, we have not been "purposefully kept in fear." The pandemic is real and has killed half a million Americans so far. Many more Americans are now suffering from long COVID. 

Third, the body is complex but the "science" tells us both that the pandemic is real and dangerous and that the vaccines are reasonably safe. As others noted below, it is not "anti-science" to wait for vaccination. However, it is "anti-science" to claim that the science is not settled when it is. 

Okay, I didn't mean "party-line" as in political party. I meant the party-line as in this is what the American people are being pushed to believe through what I view as...propaganda (I can't think of a better word, and it doesn't quite convey what I mean...). Also, if you think my "party-line" response was offensive, have you seen the posts that call anyone who doesn't believe like everyone else about the pandemic "anti-intellectual and anti-science" among other things?

Of the half a million Americans who have died of COVID, 40% have been over 80 years of age, and another 12% were 75-79 years old. Yes, those people were important people, every one of them, although deaths of older people just after the vaccination were flippantly passed off as just people "who would have died anyway." By the way, I have known people (relatives of people I know, actually) who have died of COVID. It IS real.  I think we have a novel virus out there and that has caused greater problems than, let's say, a bad flu year. I think as a society, we are woefully unhealthy, and that has caused additional issues with this virus, both in terms of death and for the long-haul symptoms.

Finally, you say the science is settled, and I disagree with you. What exactly do you mean by the science is settled? I'm actually dismayed by the lack of knowledge we have about this virus that has been wreaking havoc for over a year! Why do some people get hit so hard, while others don't? Why do some people become super-spreaders, while others don't pass it on to anyone? Why do some people get gastro-intestinal problems while others only have respiratory problems? If the science were settled, we would know all these things. I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization). And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns.

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12 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I agree there is a lot going on in this thread!  To the original OP:  I'd guess anxiety is the cause.

About various other topics:  I've never understood the "fear" part.   (I don't mean anxiety -- that's different.)   I do not personally know a single person who lives in actual fear because of Covid.  They're careful, not fearful, about how they live their lives.  To me, their decision to get a vaccine is almost the opposite of fear. They're getting it even if they're not 100% sure how it'll affect them, and knowing they might feel sick for a day or two!  But they're doing it to help others, or perhaps they are high-risk themselves. 

 

Snipped the part that I wanted to respond to.  I did have fear a year ago in March.  I was quite ill with "something" for six weeks.  It affected my breathing, gave me chest tightness.  But this was very early in the pandemic when I didn't even meet requirements for a Covid test because I was too young and didn't meet narrow medical parameters.  Much later I did have a antibody test that came out negative but it was actually a bit late for possibly showing results so who knows?  But I did have actual fear each night that I wouldn't wake up in the morning because I am immunocompromised and spent six months one year and seven months another with very serious chest/airway infections that just wouldn't clear up.  But once I recovered from that illness I have been quite careful about Covid precautions but not fearful.  Just saying that some specific circumstances might warrant fear even though I struggled at the same time to trust God for my well-being and my recovery.  I 100% agree with you about being careful and about getting the vaccine for others as well as ourselves.

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Just now, Martha in GA said:

Okay, I didn't mean "party-line" as in political party. I meant the party-line as in this is what the American people are being pushed to believe through what I view as...propaganda (I can't think of a better word, and it doesn't quite convey what I mean...). Also, if you think my "party-line" response was offensive, have you seen the posts that call anyone who doesn't believe like everyone else about the pandemic "anti-intellectual and anti-science" among other things?

Of the half a million Americans who have died of COVID, 40% have been over 80 years of age, and another 12% were 75-79 years old. Yes, those people were important people, every one of them, although deaths of older people just after the vaccination were flippantly passed off as just people "who would have died anyway." By the way, I have known people (relatives of people I know, actually) who have died of COVID. It IS real.  I think we have a novel virus out there and that has caused greater problems than, let's say, a bad flu year. I think as a society, we are woefully unhealthy, and that has caused additional issues with this virus, both in terms of death and for the long-haul symptoms.

Finally, you say the science is settled, and I disagree with you. What exactly do you mean by the science is settled? I'm actually dismayed by the lack of knowledge we have about this virus that has been wreaking havoc for over a year! Why do some people get hit so hard, while others don't? Why do some people become super-spreaders, while others don't pass it on to anyone? Why do some people get gastro-intestinal problems while others only have respiratory problems? If the science were settled, we would know all these things. I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization). And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns.

What mean by "propaganda" if you believe that this is a novel virus that has caused more issues than a bad flu? Isn't it rational to be afraid of contracting a virus that is worse than a bad flu? 

I agree that there are many things that we do not understand about this virus but all of the evidence suggests that the vaccines are safe. 

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12 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns.

Are you not also concerned about auto immune responses and inflammatory responses to the virus?

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20 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization).

I am pretty sure that scientists and medical professionals around the world are working on this as hard as they can. It would be completely illogical if that weren't the case. 

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I agree with others that this person probably has anxiety. So getting the vaccine likely HAS made a difference in her life, even if you cannot see the difference it has made. 

Anyone with anxiety can identify with the feeling of a weight being lifted off your chest, and how that can lead to better sleep, which can lead to a better mood, and so on. 

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16 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

Okay, I didn't mean "party-line" as in political party. I meant the party-line as in this is what the American people are being pushed to believe through what I view as...propaganda (I can't think of a better word, and it doesn't quite convey what I mean...). Also, if you think my "party-line" response was offensive, have you seen the posts that call anyone who doesn't believe like everyone else about the pandemic "anti-intellectual and anti-science" among other things?

Of the half a million Americans who have died of COVID, 40% have been over 80 years of age, and another 12% were 75-79 years old. Yes, those people were important people, every one of them, although deaths of older people just after the vaccination were flippantly passed off as just people "who would have died anyway." By the way, I have known people (relatives of people I know, actually) who have died of COVID. It IS real.  I think we have a novel virus out there and that has caused greater problems than, let's say, a bad flu year. I think as a society, we are woefully unhealthy, and that has caused additional issues with this virus, both in terms of death and for the long-haul symptoms.

Finally, you say the science is settled, and I disagree with you. What exactly do you mean by the science is settled? I'm actually dismayed by the lack of knowledge we have about this virus that has been wreaking havoc for over a year! Why do some people get hit so hard, while others don't? Why do some people become super-spreaders, while others don't pass it on to anyone? Why do some people get gastro-intestinal problems while others only have respiratory problems? If the science were settled, we would know all these things. I also believe that we should be working more toward finding medicine that would treat those who come down with COVID BEFORE it becomes a raging cytokine storm that is hard to recover from (that is, before they need hospitalization). And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. Right now, I am concerned about auto-immune responses and inflammatory responses to the vaccine, and I don't think we have had enough time to know if these are valid concerns.

I have been rather morbidly fascinated by TB since my family is was affected by it and yet we did not talk about it. I do not for instance know if my grandparents contracted it. I just know the stories of people who died because their kids were raised with my dad and were part of old family photos, visiting relatives graves and seeing it written as passed away from TB and the cleaning practices of my grandparents that were for the rest of their lives.

What I know is even though the BCG (TB vaccine) is more than a 100 years old, TB itself is still a global pandemic. A million people died in 2019, last I checked. I also know the BCG vaccine is a long lasting one. I had it when I was a child, then tested positive for TB here in my 20s when a doctor nor I did not know I could. 

A vaccine does not mean COVID will be conquered. It does not mean it will be downgraded from a pandemic in our lifetime. It may never go away. The most effective weapon against a disease like COVID is still a vaccine especially in public health. 

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9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Are you not also concerned about auto immune responses and inflammatory responses to the virus?

Well, yes, but the vaccine involves purposely injecting myself, whereas the COVID might or might not happen.

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Just now, Martha in GA said:

Well, yes, but the vaccine involves purposely injecting myself, whereas the COVID might or might not happen.

Gotcha. So I think actually we agree that our preference would be to not catch Covid AND not need a vaccine.

I just don't trust my ability not to eventually contract it, not without continuing to hermit myself away as much as possible. And then potentially spread it. 

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57 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I also wanted to mention that RNA drugs already exist.  It's actually a very exciting field, and holds some potential for helping with as of yet incurable diseases.  Wouldn't that be great!

 

Yes! The people on the cancer board I belong to are super excited about the potential.

 

29 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Are you not also concerned about auto immune responses and inflammatory responses to the virus?

I'm WAY more worried about possible AI issues that might come from contracting the virus than I am from the vaccine. So many reports of Long Covid, but I don't recall hearing of any AI issues with the vaccine. Anecdotally, nothing worrisome or even very interesting is being reported on the arthritis and other medical/patient forums I belong to, and a lot of people with AI diseases on those forums have received the vaccine. 

Edited by Pawz4me
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These discussions are all the same. We're presented with several options to help end the pandemic, e.g. mask wearing, social distancing, and a vaccine. Then we hear, "I wish they would do this," or "I wish we had more evidence." 

It's a distraction. 

Why assume that people who know much about this than most of us aren't looking at many different ways of saving lives and ending the pandemic? Just because we don't hear about it, doesn't mean that the research isn't happening. 

Let's just admit that nothing will ever be good enough for some of the critics. 

Do people not understand how medical research is done? People expect more certainty about COVID precautions than exists for many medical treatments. 

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7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

These discussions are all the same. We're presented with several options to help end the pandemic, e.g. mask wearing, social distancing, and a vaccine. Then we hear, "I wish they would do this," or "I wish we had more evidence." 

It's a distraction. 

 

What I'm noticing is that complaints of inconsistent messaging, when confronted with more consistent messaging, turned into complaints about propaganda and group think. 

And taking precautions shamed as being fearful. But then the vaccine is rejected out of fear of side effects. 

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3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

Do people not understand how medical research is done? People expect more certainty about COVID precautions than exists for many medical treatments. 

I really wonder.  The vaccines had extremely large double blind studies, and people still tout experimental treatments as miracle cures when there is absolutely no solid double blind data that would lead to that conclusion.  Where's the evidence of the wide scale conspiracy that the vast majority of the medical community is trying to pull one over on us? 

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15 hours ago, Resilient said:

I admit that I am a little sarcastic about this situation, but a part of me is genuinely asking and willing to learn.

An acquaintance has been (what I consider to be) completely fanatic about following alllll the protocols--going well above and beyond.  Double masking with N95 even in her car, when when walking outdoors, 6' away from her walking friend... She has groceries delivered and washes all of the packaging with bleach. This is a small sample of her protocols to give you the drift.   

She got the vaccine for herself and her family before they were eligible (dh, 2 adult children) by lying about their "underlying conditions" and "caregiving for multi-generational people in your home" (read: my adult child comes to visit)...  Got the scenario?

She has the vaccine now, as does everyone she knows (most of whom got it out of order but by luck, not by lying) and she still is insisting on all the same protocols: (see the first 2 paragraphs).  She has no plan to change anything at all in her life as a result of getting the vaccine.   

I don't understand this. Can someone explain?  

 

I am teaching in person this semester, and will be officially fully vaccinated tomorrow. I do not plan to change what I am doing until all my students are able to be vaccinated and have had time to do it, and since my youngest are preschoolers, that will be awhile. I will also continue to mask in stores, outdoors with non-family, etc.  My reason is 1) I want to keep those who are not vaccinated safe-and as long as under 16 can't be vaccinated, almost everyone I know has at least one non-vaccinated person in their household 2) I want to model the behavior and be conscious of the concerns of those who cannot be vaccinated yet. It is no big deal for me to wear a mask, even when I'm with a vaccinated friend. 

 

 

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I guess I'd be the OP.  My husband is fully vaccinated, three of us are partially vaccinated, but two children don't qualify.  Nothing has or will change for us.  Then again, this is what's going on in my community, so I think my concerns are valid.  I do think I will have a harder time letting go of some of these measures with the variants now showing up in my state.  B.1.1.7 has certainly caused a difference.  We get vaccinated and take precautions each flu season.  I look at the covid vaccine the same way.  

E6156210-259A-4B37-BFF7-4BF14DC5B51F_1_201_a.jpeg.2bb9e59bb99bf159452996f71cac109c.jpeg

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I think that if I was very afraid of Covid, the vax would not make me less afraid, at least not until the vast majority of people were vaxed.

There still isn't much information about what the vax actually prevents.  There is still at least 5% chance that the vax doesn't protect a particular individual.  The person may also be more afraid of spreading than catching the virus.  (People with OCD, for example, are often afraid their actions will cause the death or illness of loved ones rather than themselves.)  We are still waiting to find out whether the vax is very effective at preventing spread.  And then there are the "new variants" that the media is telling us to fear, with or without the vax.

As for washing fruits and some other actions, I believe some people have decided that they are going to stick with Covid-era precautions because they also prevent against other bugs.  Maybe the feeling of being in control over that is helpful to this person in the short run.

(None of this applies to me personally - I am not afraid of Covid and I don't wash my groceries etc.)

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28 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I really wonder.  The vaccines had extremely large double blind studies, and people still tout experimental treatments as miracle cures when there is absolutely no solid double blind data that would lead to that conclusion.  Where's the evidence of the wide scale conspiracy that the vast majority of the medical community is trying to pull one over on us? 

I think this is a big part of it. People don't understand how medical research is done. They don't understand how physicians diagnose patients and prescribe treatments and medication. 

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2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Snipped the part that I wanted to respond to.  I did have fear a year ago in March.  I was quite ill with "something" for six weeks.  It affected my breathing, gave me chest tightness.  But this was very early in the pandemic when I didn't even meet requirements for a Covid test because I was too young and didn't meet narrow medical parameters.  Much later I did have a antibody test that came out negative but it was actually a bit late for possibly showing results so who knows?  But I did have actual fear each night that I wouldn't wake up in the morning because I am immunocompromised and spent six months one year and seven months another with very serious chest/airway infections that just wouldn't clear up.  But once I recovered from that illness I have been quite careful about Covid precautions but not fearful.  Just saying that some specific circumstances might warrant fear even though I struggled at the same time to trust God for my well-being and my recovery.  I 100% agree with you about being careful and about getting the vaccine for others as well as ourselves.

You're right...  I can certainly understand being fearful of getting Covid due to already compromised health, especially early on when we knew so little.  I wasn't thinking of that aspect.

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51 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think that if I was very afraid of Covid, the vax would not make me less afraid, at least not until the vast majority of people were vaxed.

There still isn't much information about what the vax actually prevents.  There is still at least 5% chance that the vax doesn't protect a particular individual.  The person may also be more afraid of spreading than catching the virus.  (People with OCD, for example, are often afraid their actions will cause the death or illness of loved ones rather than themselves.)  We are still waiting to find out whether the vax is very effective at preventing spread.  And then there are the "new variants" that the media is telling us to fear, with or without the vax.

As for washing fruits and some other actions, I believe some people have decided that they are going to stick with Covid-era precautions because they also prevent against other bugs.  Maybe the feeling of being in control over that is helpful to this person in the short run.

(None of this applies to me personally - I am not afraid of Covid and I don't wash my groceries etc.)

RE the bolded text - the "media" is not telling us to fear the variants. Public health officials are warning us about the variants. 

I am not afraid of dying of COVID, although there is a risk of that. I'm concerned about long COVID. 

You use very loaded language in your response, e.g. "afraid." 

And we have evidence that the vax is very effective at preventing spread. 

 

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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

Including for the vaccine. The covid vaccines are currently more effective than vaccine for the flu if I understand correctly. 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm 

Studies released show my likelihood for a severe outcome with covid are much worse than the general population.  I don't have that same concern with the flu.  There are also studies that are showing real concern for vaccine effectiveness in those with impaired immune systems.  So to some the vaccine may not provide a 90% efficacy against disease.  Early data for organ transplant, as an example, are abysmal when compared to the general population.

I wipe down fast food cups, and things like gallon milk, but I do that during flu season.  I wear a protective mask.  I don't think I'm excessive, but I'm sure other people might.

Edited by melmichigan
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3 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

Studies released show my likelihood for a severe outcome with covid are much worse than the general population.  I don't have that same concern with the flu.  There are also studies that are showing real concern for vaccine effectiveness in those with impaired immune systems.  So to some the vaccine may not provide a 90% efficacy against disease.  Early data for organ transplant, as an example, are abysmal when compared to the general population.

I wipe down fast food cups, and things like gallon milk, but I do that during flu season.  I wear a protective mask.  I don't think I'm excessive, but I'm sure other people might.

You just made a good argument for why those of us that can vaccinate and are likely to respond reasonably well, if not optimally, should get it and contribute to herd immunity.

A failure to respond optimally to vaccines is not new though, and some people do not become immune to things that most people do. I know someone that got chicken pox basically every year until it was common for kids to be vaccinated. 

I think there will be people who under-respond but who will still be more protected than if they are not vaccinated, especially if we manage herd immunity at some point.

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13 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

Studies released show my likelihood for a severe outcome with covid are much worse than the general population.  I don't have that same concern with the flu.  There are also studies that are showing real concern for vaccine effectiveness in those with impaired immune systems.  So to some the vaccine may not provide a 90% efficacy against disease.  Early data for organ transplant, as an example, are abysmal when compared to the general population.

I wipe down fast food cups, and things like gallon milk, but I do that during flu season.  I wear a protective mask.  I don't think I'm excessive, but I'm sure other people might.

I take an immuno-regulator.  It actually is a drug that has been considered as a treatment for Covid (though thankfully the conspiracy theory nuts haven't heard of it yet so it hasn't gotten any press - just academic medical papers).  I do wonder if the vaccine that I'm scheduled to get in a week will be as effective as if I weren't on this drug.  But this drug prevents cytokine storms so perhaps it will keep me from potential side effects?  Either way, the current medical guess (and it is a guess in this case but with experimental drugs it is always that way) is to get the vaccine anyway.  I am going with the medical experts on this even if it might not be 100% effective. 

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Since the theories of Geert Vanden Bossche being discussed in this thread, I thought I'd drop this off.    Sorry for the formatting, I'd try to fix but I don't have more time right now.  

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/node/23354

New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments

March 8, 2021

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I take an immuno-regulator.  It actually is a drug that has been considered as a treatment for Covid (though thankfully the conspiracy theory nuts haven't heard of it yet so it hasn't gotten any press - just academic medical papers).  I do wonder if the vaccine that I'm scheduled to get in a week will be as effective as if I weren't on this drug.  But this drug prevents cytokine storms so perhaps it will keep me from potential side effects?  Either way, the current medical guess (and it is a guess in this case but with experimental drugs it is always that way) is to get the vaccine anyway.  I am going with the medical experts on this even if it might not be 100% effective. 

I completely agree.  I stopped my medication to increase the likelihood that I will have as much of an immune response as possible.  My child was premeditated, knowing that may very well decrease the effectiveness, but because it was needed.  I'll take whatever protection I can get at this point, for me and mine, but at the same time I realize the limitations in the science at this point, and will continue to take adequate precautions.  

I do see updated boosters for variants in the near future, and eventually multi-strain shots just like the flu.  The argument Geert Vanden Bossche makes doesn't make sense to me because the virus was already mutating before we started vaccinating. We are expecting it to continue and planning accordingly.  I can't see how waiting for an unknown, and as yet undeveloped vaccine, that he's said to be developing will help us over the next few years.

 

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4 hours ago, Martha in GA said:

And, yes, I will get the vaccine when I feel the risk of COVID (to ME) is greater than the risk of the vaccination for me. 

What about contributing to your community's herd immunity? What about hopefully preventing the spread of a deadly virus? Or is it all just about you?

I do understand; to my shame, I used to have the same approach to my child's vaccinations. I determined that she would get them when and only when I felt the risk to HER was greater from the disease than from the vaccination. Other people didn't factor into the equation at all. Very American of me, I must say--but not at all Biblical. 

If there's one thing this pandemic has taught me, it's how profoundly our actions affect everyone around us. 

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So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

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5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

I'll probably be much less cautious after my 2nd shot. I got the shot because I know that no one around us will try to protect me so I have to do what I can to protect us. There's no use my being a hermit around people who aren't even bothering to get the shot. 

 

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15 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my life again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

After we receive our second shot, my husband and I are planning on following the CDC's recommendations for fully vaccinated people:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

May I gently suggest that living well encompasses much more than just doing the things we want to do? I know you know this, but it bears repeating. I would hate to suggest to anyone who is continuing to be cautious--for whatever reason--that they're not really "living." 

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1 hour ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Since the theories of Geert Vanden Bossche being discussed in this thread, I thought I'd drop this off.    Sorry for the formatting, I'd try to fix but I don't have more time right now.  

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/node/23354

New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments

March 8, 2021

 

 

 

You realize that the current variants that have the mutation that allows them to evade antibodies (P1 and B1351) evolved before we had vaccines, right?

That this is how viruses naturally evolve and mutate with or without vaccines?

That the best way to prevent the virus from mutating is to prevent people from catching it to begin with?

That vaccines are by far the best tool we have to limit spread and therefore limit mutations?

Edited by Corraleno
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I’ll follow CDC guidelines for vaccinated people, whatever they may be.  We have an under 12, so we will have an unvaccinated family member till early next year, probably.

I’m looking forward to more freedom.  But we will mask in public, indoor places, and avoid crowds.  Wash hands, distance with people we don’t know are vaccinated.

I never really masked outside, unless in a crowded area or speaking to someone.  Just carried a mask, in case. That won’t change.

Elderly mom got her second shot yesterday, and already has plans to travel 2 weeks post-shot.  Her twin will come get her, they’ll go to restaurants and shopping, and I’m sure they won’t wear masks once.  My mom will forget to wash her hands frequently, sigh.  They will be around unvaccinated people who are not careful, and we will just hope it all goes well.  I need a break from her care, so this is necessary. She will be gone a week, and we just have to hope there’s some protection against transmitting it when she gets back and is around unvaccinated DD.

We will get together with vaccinated people, one household at a time, or whatever the current guideline says.

And we will have vaccinated HCW come over again, to aid in elder care.  (Yay!) 

So we will still be careful, maybe more than some think reasonable (is following CDC guidelines unreasonable?  I don’t think so, but some do). But we will certainly be opening things up a lot,

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re I got the shot so I could live again

14 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So i guess I am confused that most if not all of you are going to continue to be so cautious. I am so ready to re-enter life that the rest of my world has re-entered several months ago if not before. I cannot live as a hermit any more.  I just cannot. I want to go to Bible Study, sing in choir and live my live again. I want to see my daughter perform in a musical.  I get my 2nd shot in a few days.  I got the shot so I can live again.

I did too. And (once my 13 more days of waiting are complete) I will do *more* things.  Particularly with my longed-for loved ones, all of whom are either already vaccinated or on their way.

But not *all* the things. Because

  • I don't know *conclusively* that I might not still spread the virus even though I don't contract the virus, though, as @kandemphasized, the recent data on this is looking "very good"  😊
  • And in the meantime, there are loads of people in my state/ community who have not yet been able to be vaccinated, and
  • Cases are rising sharply here (as @melmichiganillustrated above for her state as well), in large part because
  • New variants, that appear to be both more transmissible and more virulent, are spreading fast.

It is the last that troubles me the most. Because the more variants emerge and the faster they spread, the more we -- all of us, the United States and the world, whether we choose as individuals to vaccinate or not -- risk being set back, Parcheesi-like, to START.

Our only hope in defeating this is for vaccination to outpace the spread of the new variants, so that COVID isn't circulating in levels that spike to exponential growth.

The vaccines are ~95% effective in preventing contraction of COVID to people who are exposed to it.  If (real) positivity rates are low enough, and (actual) cases are low enough, then most of us will not be exposed to it.  That is the mechanism by which herd immunity works.

But if we all surge back too soon to our regular lives, the variants will win.

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37 minutes ago, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

Since the theories of Geert Vanden Bossche being discussed in this thread, I thought I'd drop this off.    Sorry for the formatting, I'd try to fix but I don't have more time right now.  

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/node/23354

New Study of Coronavirus Variants Predicts Virus Evolving to Escape Current Vaccines, Treatments

March 8, 2021

 

 

 

Right; as this article makes clear, it isn't the vaccine that will lead to mutations, it's letting the virus spread unchecked. The vaccine is our best chance to stop or slow mutations. From your link:

Quote

 “We have to stop the virus from replicating and that means rolling out vaccine faster and sticking to our mitigation measures like masking and physical distancing. Stopping the spread of the virus will stop the development of further mutations,” Ho says.  

 

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