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DS got home 3 hours ago!  ❤️❤️

Update-  my youngest is not only short of breath, coughing, dizzy, nausaues, and with headache-  she is also confused.  I called our doctor and talked with him and she is going to be going to the ER.

That's not a blanket right.  If my religion required human sacrifice, I can't practice it.  If my religion required sexual assault, I can't practice it. Freedom of religion isn't a blanket right

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58 minutes ago, MarieCurie said:

How do you not breathe through your nose? Even when my mouth is open I still have air coming in and out my nose.

Really?!? I don't have any at all.  I have to conscientiously think about forcing air through my nose and it only works when my mouth is closed.  Even then, I can tell I'm not getting near enough air.  I can only do it for a few breathes and then I have to open my mouth or I start feeling like I'm suffocating.

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think there’s some yoga stuff you can do to help with this?

im also a mouth breather at night only mostly and it’s linked to increased dental and orthodontic problems as well.

Interesting thought about trying to fix it.  I guess I never viewed it as a problem.  It wasn't until my mid 30's when I discovered it wasn't normal so by that point it was like "oh, I'm different, what else is new" (my whole life I've had unusual illnesses/reactions that have left many doctors saying "I've never seen that before", but my grandma was the same way so I just assumed it was some hereditary weirdness that I had).  I did have horribly messed up teeth as a child but braces fixed it and I've never had teeth problems since).

I don't snore and that was the only thing I had ever heard could be a problem.  

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1 hour ago, cjzimmer1 said:

Really?!? I don't have any at all.  I have to conscientiously think about forcing air through my nose and it only works when my mouth is closed.  Even then, I can tell I'm not getting near enough air.  I can only do it for a few breathes and then I have to open my mouth or I start feeling like I'm suffocating.

Interesting. Have you ever had a doctor look at it? It sounds like some sort of blockage in your nose.

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8 minutes ago, MarieCurie said:

Interesting. Have you ever had a doctor look at it? It sounds like some sort of blockage in your nose.

Since it was only a few years ago that I even discovered it wasn't usual and I've never encountered any problems, no it never crossed my mind to ask a doctor about it.  But after reading your description of breathing it has made wonder if I have an issue.  I rarely go to the doctor so we'll have to see if I remember to ask about the next time I go.

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1 hour ago, cjzimmer1 said:

Really?!? I don't have any at all.  I have to conscientiously think about forcing air through my nose and it only works when my mouth is closed.  Even then, I can tell I'm not getting near enough air.  I can only do it for a few breathes and then I have to open my mouth or I start feeling like I'm suffocating.

Yeah....that's not normal, to not be able to get enough air. Sounds like you have chronic nasal congestion, or a badly deviated septum (mind is actually S shaped, lol) or maybe adenoids? 

My septum is pretty severe, to the point that a medical test that I was supposed to have done that involved putting a sensor up my nose and into my throat couldn't be done - there was no room to pass it via either nostril. But even i can breathe through my nose when I'm not congested. I do breathe through my mouth when sleeping. 

I do have to wonder.....what did you think noses were for, lol? 

On a more serious note, yes, mouth breathing is linked to tooth decay and gum disease because of the drying effect. 

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20 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yeah....that's not normal, to not be able to get enough air. Sounds like you have chronic nasal congestion, or a badly deviated septum (mind is actually S shaped, lol) or maybe adenoids? 

My septum is pretty severe, to the point that a medical test that I was supposed to have done that involved putting a sensor up my nose and into my throat couldn't be done - there was no room to pass it via either nostril. But even i can breathe through my nose when I'm not congested. I do breathe through my mouth when sleeping. 

I do have to wonder.....what did you think noses were for, lol? 

On a more serious note, yes, mouth breathing is linked to tooth decay and gum disease because of the drying effect. 

My adenoids were taken out when I was 4, I had chronic ear infections before that surgery and none since.  Noses are for smelling things 🙂 , honestly though I never really gave it any thought.  It was "my" normal so really never pondered it.  I had a lot of allergies as a kid so I suspect that I was just so used to never being able to breathe through it that it became a habit to mouth breathe.  

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43 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

My adenoids were taken out when I was 4, I had chronic ear infections before that surgery and none since.  Noses are for smelling things 🙂 , honestly though I never really gave it any thought.  It was "my" normal so really never pondered it.  I had a lot of allergies as a kid so I suspect that I was just so used to never being able to breathe through it that it became a habit to mouth breathe.  

I had a septum straightened because of breathing out of my mouth instead of my nose.

No idea how much good it has done.

 

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Israel update: Number of new cases yesterday the highest since April.   Are we in a second wave?  A new stage of the first wave?  A reason for mild concern or imminent disaster?  Nobody seems to agree.

I fervently hope that these theories of declining lethality are correct, because boy this virus is hella contagious.  And Israel's experience reopening schools was not at all encouraging.  Unless it turns out that catching this virus is genuinely not something to be afraid of, I cannot possibly imagine how US colleges and universities (let alone K-12 schools) are going to reopen in the fall.  

On the sort-of bright side, the testing criteria have been significantly expanded and many of the new cases are being diagnosed in children and teens who have minimal (or no) symptoms.  It's also not clear what the false positive rate is when testing so broadly.  I guess we will learn more in the fullness of time.  

 

 

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Italy 🇮🇹 https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/over-half-of-people-tested-in-italys-bergamo-have-coronavirus-antibodies

“ROME (REUTERS) - More than half the residents tested in Italy's northern province of Bergamo have coronavirus antibodies, health authorities said on Monday (June 8), citing a sample survey.

Of 9,965 residents who had blood tests between April 23 and June 3, 57 per cent had antibodies indicating they had come into contact with the coronavirus, the survey showed.

Health authorities in Bergamo said the results were based on a "random" sample which was "sufficiently broad" to be a reliable indicator of how many people had been infected in the province, which became the epicentre of Italy's outbreak.

In a separate statement issued later, the Bergamo health agency said that most of those in the sample were residents of the worst-hit areas. Many had already been put under quarantine, the statement added.

Antibodies were found in just over 30 per cent of the 10,404 health operators tested although they are generally considered more at risk than other people.

In a report released in early May, national statistics institute ISTAT said the number of deaths in Bergamo was up 568 per cent in March compared with the 2015-2019 average, making it Italy's worst-hit city in terms of deaths.

Its hospitals were overwhelmed by infected people and, with morgues unable to keep up, convoys of army trucks carrying away the dead became a chilling symbol of the global pandemic.

Bergamo province has reported 13,609 coronavirus cases, official data showed on Monday.”

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3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Italy 🇮🇹 https://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/over-half-of-people-tested-in-italys-bergamo-have-coronavirus-antibodies

“ROME (REUTERS) - More than half the residents tested in Italy's northern province of Bergamo have coronavirus antibodies, health authorities said on Monday (June 8), citing a sample survey.

Of 9,965 residents who had blood tests between April 23 and June 3, 57 per cent had antibodies indicating they had come into contact with the coronavirus, the survey showed.

Health authorities in Bergamo said the results were based on a "random" sample which was "sufficiently broad" to be a reliable indicator of how many people had been infected in the province, which became the epicentre of Italy's outbreak.

In a separate statement issued later, the Bergamo health agency said that most of those in the sample were residents of the worst-hit areas. Many had already been put under quarantine, the statement added.

Antibodies were found in just over 30 per cent of the 10,404 health operators tested although they are generally considered more at risk than other people.

In a report released in early May, national statistics institute ISTAT said the number of deaths in Bergamo was up 568 per cent in March compared with the 2015-2019 average, making it Italy's worst-hit city in terms of deaths.

Its hospitals were overwhelmed by infected people and, with morgues unable to keep up, convoys of army trucks carrying away the dead became a chilling symbol of the global pandemic.

Bergamo province has reported 13,609 coronavirus cases, official data showed on Monday.”

They should basically be at herd immunity or very close then!  That’s a good thing though horrific that the number of deaths was so high.

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Dog detection:

 

very interesting to me:

“In our proof-of-concept study, two negative samples, according to our described inclusion criteria for negative samples, were marked positive by two dogs; the information was immediately sent to the concerned hospital through the anonymous samples codes, and PCRs that were redone on the patients gave positive results. As said, the dogs are sniffing for specific molecules induced by the SARS-CoV-2 virus presence and dogs have no reason to lie as long as there is no environmental disturbance during their work.”

 

so 2 patients had had false negatives by PCR test, but the dogs got it right

 

(They also learned that they have to be careful about male dogs falsely alerting to human females in eostrus cycle otoh.) 

4 dogs got 100% of samples identified correctly. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

They should basically be at herd immunity or very close then!  That’s a good thing though horrific that the number of deaths was so high.

Is this the reliable antibody test they were doing? I feel so confused about these tests! I say a post, admittedly from a whacko source, saying that the CDC were saying there was up to a 50% false positive with some antibody test. The person who posted it was using it to say 50% of people diagnosed with CV were falsely positive lol so that part was ridiculous, since a different test entirely, but I have heard a number of different things about the antibody test. I keep hearing people say it picks up antibodies to other corona viruses still. However, when you read how many people are getting tested for antibodies and turning up negative, it must mean something that so many in Bergamo were positive. So probably good news!

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2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

So after doing better and better from mid-May to June 4--and having been able to resume normal activities like doing laundry, buying groceries in person, and washing my car--I've relapsed.

No idea what's going on. Throw me your ideas. I'm going to call my doctor again, but with some reluctance given how little was accomplished via my previous care.

 

Have other known illnesses that give long up and downs been checked for? Mononucleosis, Lyme, etc?  Autoimmune conditions?  Mitochondrial problems?

 

If not CV19, not another long term ups and downs known illness, then options seem to be either that another Novel Microbe was released and has not been identified yet, or you have something like chronic fatigue syndrome (as in sick with something debilitating or what might be mitochondrial dysfunction, or the aftermath of unknown or uncertain cause.)  

Or maybe it *is* CV19 and maybe that can affect people like you are experiencing, but not test positive.  You might try the online support group for long tail CV19 and see if what you have seems to be what they have. 

 

My idea would be to try to rule out anything like Lyme that might be possible and be needing appropriate medicines.  If it isn’t something like that, where there’s a pharmaceutical treatment possible, then do whatever self help treatments you can trying to support your health. Supplements, herbs, lifestyle management...

I have had chronic health issues for decades and it is a major problem to live with, but it is what it is. One does what one can.   I suspect that CV19 will result in many more people in such circumstances.  

And there also seem to be quite a few people like you with CV19-like illnesses and aftermath but no positive test . 

 

 

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@whitehawk  also, if you start feeling better again, don’t resume full normal activities.  Just do 1/4  the laundry. Or just go shopping once.  

Not laundry plus shopping plus car washing.

try to build up very slowly

Whatever you have, and even if you will be lucky and heal totally, visiting some sites that talk about how to live with a chronic condition that flares from overdoing (that is flares from what should seem normal or even reduced activity ) may help you.  

 

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2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

So after doing better and better from mid-May to June 4--and having been able to resume normal activities like doing laundry, buying groceries in person, and washing my car--I've relapsed.

No idea what's going on. Throw me your ideas. I'm going to call my doctor again, but with some reluctance given how little was accomplished via my previous care.

What are your symptoms now?  Do you need to go to a specialist like a pulmonologist?  

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20 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

Symptoms since June 5: intermittent elevated temperature (still not over 100F), fatigue, cough with exertion (including talking while seated). I haven't had a high resting heart rate again, as far as I've noticed. Those few weeks without the cough were so nice. I have a telemed appointment with a PA Friday morning; the doctor apparently is only there on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and is booked for this week.

The doc has said she believes it's C19. Previous blood test ruled out inflammation, liver issues, I'm not sure what else (and the meds I tried before should have ruled out asthma, allergies, and bacterial infection). I think Lyme is flatly impossible given my symptoms (no joint pain, for example), and when and how it started (like a cold, at the same time that DS had all the same symptoms except the cough, and not after spending time outside). No flags for other conditions that I'm seeing (she asked about changes in appetite, for example).

I looked at clinicaltrials.gov last night and it does not appear that *anyone anywhere* is working on people who have already had mild symptoms for an extended time.

Before I relapsed, my hypothesis was that I just needed to re-grow respiratory cells, and that's why it took so long to stop coughing. I really did return gradually and gently to a more normal activity level, and DH was still making dinner, emptying the dishwasher, and taking care of the kitty litter. I only do my own laundry, not DH's or DS's. I made no effort to exercise beyond a three-block amble after dinner, and my doc had encouraged me to be active as tolerated.

I will probably go looking for the Slack channel. I've never used Slack before.

@Jokerhow are you?

Did you ever have a chest CT? It should be possible to see C19 changes on a CT.

My mother had ongoing pretty debilitating respiratory symptoms some years ago. She was treated for many different things, infection, asthma etc. She had a CT scan that was suspicious and had further investigations but just could not get better. My mom is one of the most energetic people I know and it was really worrying to see her so bogged down by it. One day she sat on my couch and cried because she felt so bad. We are still not sure what was going on but wonder if it was some atypical infection. She was prescribed an antibiotic by a dr here in my area and after that she seemed to improve and gradually go back to normal. She still has a cough at times but is well, so I think she is just more susceptible to respiratory things than before. She is in her late 70s. It was probably about 10 years ago when this was going on.

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12 minutes ago, TCB said:

Did you ever have a chest CT? It should be possible to see C19 changes on a CT.

My mother had ongoing pretty debilitating respiratory symptoms some years ago. She was treated for many different things, infection, asthma etc. She had a CT scan that was suspicious and had further investigations but just could not get better. My mom is one of the most energetic people I know and it was really worrying to see her so bogged down by it. One day she sat on my couch and cried because she felt so bad. We are still not sure what was going on but wonder if it was some atypical infection. She was prescribed an antibiotic by a dr here in my area and after that she seemed to improve and gradually go back to normal. She still has a cough at times but is well, so I think she is just more susceptible to respiratory things than before. She is in her late 70s. It was probably about 10 years ago when this was going on.

My husband had something like this about 8 years ago.

Before that he NEVER Got sick -- he had pneumonia or bronchitis at that time that he resisted going to the doctor over, was sick for a long time and finally went. But ever since, almost every year he gets sick with something respiratory. We think it damaged his lungs and made him more susceptible.

 

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Totally willing to believe it is c19, but I would also look for a rule out of Lyme and other vector borne disease, fungal infections of the lung (x-ray would be the rule-out), and I’d start charting your own peak flow and temperature to see if you can see any pattern of change there.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

I had a chest x-ray back in March. It was clear.

I've recorded my temperatures. No pattern evident except it's not over 37.7 C. I'm in an air-conditioned house; the ambient temperature has very little variation.

The pattern with coughing is that if I sit still and stay quiet, I don't cough; if I'm talking or moving at length, I cough (same indoors and outdoors, morning and evening, hungry and full, etc.). A bit of cardiomyopathy had crossed my mind before I started getting better, but that shouldn't disappear for 3 weeks and reappear. I don't have a peak flow meter, but a pulse ox has never shown me less than 98, usually 99, no matter how bad it's gotten.


When this all began, way back, did you ever (even intermittently) run a high fever?  Or was it always low?  Asking because of the vector borne illness question above.  Maybe rule out Babesia, too.

Sounds more like CV, though.

We have friends who have been terribly ill for 8+ weeks.  It’s CV19, but no hospital time.  Your symptoms sound so similar. You are longer than that though, right?  And were well (or at least improving) before this relapse?

I hope you get some answers and relief soon.

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2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

Symptoms since June 5: intermittent elevated temperature (still not over 100F, ETA: currently 99.3 F or 37.39C, while my normal is ~97.5F), fatigue, cough with exertion (including talking while seated). I haven't had a high resting heart rate again, as far as I've noticed. Those few weeks without the cough were so nice. I have a telemed appointment with a PA Friday morning; the doctor apparently is only there on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and is booked for this week.

The doc has said she believes it's C19. Previous blood test ruled out inflammation, liver issues, I'm not sure what else (and the meds I tried before should have ruled out asthma, allergies, and bacterial infection). I think Lyme is flatly impossible given my symptoms (no joint pain, for example), and when and how it started (like a cold, at the same time that DS had all the same symptoms except the cough, and not after spending time outside).

 

Lack of being outside and start like a cold at same same time as son do suggest virus, not Lyme. (Not everyone gets joint pain with Lyme.)

2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

No flags for other conditions that I'm seeing (she asked about changes in appetite, for example).

I looked at clinicaltrials.gov last night and it does not appear that *anyone anywhere* is working on people who have already had mild symptoms for an extended time.

Before I relapsed, my hypothesis was that I just needed to re-grow respiratory cells, and that's why it took so long to stop coughing. I really did return gradually and gently to a more normal activity level, and DH was still making dinner, emptying the dishwasher, and taking care of the kitty litter. I only do my own laundry, not DH's or DS's. I made no effort to exercise beyond a three-block amble after dinner, and my doc had encouraged me to be active as tolerated.

 

Suggestion: Cut whatever you tried by at least ~ 2/3 when next starting...  1/3 laundry. 1 block amble.  You seem to have been more active than tolerated .  Maybe only 1/2 block amble. 

 

Have you tried whatever home care for cv19 you can do such as home care part of MATH protocols?

 

Have you tried zinc plus Quercetin, Vitamin C or Vitamin D?  Elderberry? NAC?  Etc?  ( I sometimes can get rid of a virus with a big dose of D. )  

 

Lung supportive herbs? Olive oil?

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

Never over 99.9F, where the threshold of what's a true fever is generally considered 100F (~37.8 C). And truly, I'm indoorsy, not even a gardener at all (to my neighbors' disappointment).

I looked back at my calendar, and we went for a walk outside the aquarium Feb. 28, for maybe half an hour--winter here, so with long pants and jackets on. I'm not seeing any other time we went into a forest this year; we were busy. We do check for ticks, as DS was bitten by a Lone Star tick in I think 2013 (no ill effects, fortunately), and I'm from the area from which Lyme Disease gets its name.

By contrast, among the three of us, we were in 17-22 different indoor locations (depending on where DH ate lunch) in the area, excluding home, between March 1-7, and we know community transmission of C19 was taking place in our area by February 26. For one thing, I was trying to get all our errands done before we had a big outbreak.

I  was sick from March 9 until about May 15 (but the symptoms that were just like a cold, such as sore throat and stuffy nose, were gone within 14 days; DS was only sick ~11 days).  68 days. So this is why I supposed I mostly needed to make new cells to replace damaged ones.

From May 16 through June 4, I was improving and feeling really well, more energy and no coughing and no fast pulse, with only a high temperature May 24. Roughly 21 days well.

Now I've been feeling ill again for 5 days.

 

 

Not sure what lung cell new cell growth time is, but it seems like 21 days would have been enough if that were it.

could this be a completely different thing? Rather than relapse?

 

or you may have virus in you that goes into and out of dormant mode    

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2 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

 

 

Ones you migh have around for cooking reasons could be oregano, sage, mint, oregano, maybe rosemary, licorice (real herb, not candy).

you might have others growing around you possibly — like where I am plantain leaf, lobelia, and Oregon grape are local possibilities.

Cinnamon, ginger, turmeric maybe — I haven’t looked specifically about lung support. 

 

I’d look at Nitric Oxide Breathing/ humming approaches too. And I might do some resting in sun and as much greenery if possible, weather and living circumstances permitting. 

 

If coughing were not productive I’d probably use cough drops. 

Zinc in a good form like piccolinate, glycinate etc, with Quercitin because zinc seems so very specific to inactivating Coronaviruses—***but only if along with an ionophore like HCQ or Quercitin.  Quercitin can be helpful in itself. 

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On 6/7/2020 at 11:30 AM, Pen said:

Do you know of NAC dangers?

I thought it was quite a safe supplement at ~1000mg /day.  

 

For something like Covid, it's probably very safe if taken for even a few years. However, it can also cause problems, most likely when it's taken as a supplement for very long periods of time. Here's a blog entry by Derek Lowe about NAC that explains the pros and cons of what is known about it (for now):

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/10/04/n-acetyl-cysteine-a-warning-shot

For Covid prevention, though, my family and I are definitely taking it. And if we get Covid, we will be taking NAC for at least three months after because the infection appears to "keep something going" even once the virus clears. Maybe the immune system is damaged in some way and struggles to get back to normal? That might explain the multiple-relapse cycles that some people are experiencing.

It really looks like the virus is causing clots in multiple ways. That is not good and not easy to treat. It is looking like a therapeutic (bigger) dose is the way to go for people who are getting intubated. Heparin might not be the ideal choice either. Probably a more powerful drug. I forget the name of it. The weird, atypical clotting that they're seeing is worrisome.

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7 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

 

For something like Covid, it's probably very safe if taken for even a few years. However, it can also cause problems, most likely when it's taken as a supplement for very long periods of time. Here's a blog entry by Derek Lowe about NAC that explains the pros and cons of what is known about it (for now):

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/10/04/n-acetyl-cysteine-a-warning-shot

For Covid prevention, though, my family and I are definitely taking it. And if we get Covid, we will be taking NAC for at least three months after because the infection appears to "keep something going" even once the virus clears. Maybe the immune system is damaged in some way and struggles to get back to normal? That might explain the multiple-relapse cycles that some people are experiencing.

It really looks like the virus is causing clots in multiple ways. That is not good and not easy to treat. It is looking like a therapeutic (bigger) dose is the way to go for people who are getting intubated. Heparin might not be the ideal choice either. Probably a more powerful drug. I forget the name of it. The weird, atypical clotting that they're seeing is worrisome.

 

Thanks. 

I do now recall reading in past about nac cancer issues. 

I use it particularly for its help for liver and processing toxins.   

 

CV19 seems to have malaria-like features. (Recurrence and clots aspects.)  I wonder if a virus can get active gene sequencing from a parasite.  Seems sci-fi realm, but ??? this is a very weird virus. 

 

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@whitehawk  I’m not managing link for MATH protocols.  They were from a university med school I believe.

Try YouTube for “DrBeen” and he had a MATH++ video for home care. (Another for hospital care.)  

in fact I think he is now in last few days  going into individual elements of the MATH suggestions with a whole video for some individual parts (like melatonin was covered yesterday).   

 

 

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31 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

 

ETA: Lung damage repair seems dependent on severity of the injury. People who had to be ventilated because of H1N1 typically were not back to normal in 6 months. But again, it doesn't seem that a lot of inquiry has been done into mild illness.

 

Besides everything else Pen linked, I I think the NAC especially would be worth taking. You might very well have had Covid and the big bugaboo are clots after the infection clears. NAC can help prevent them. Personally, I am taking NAC as a preventive and if I get the infection, I'll continue taking NAC probably for 6 months to a year later. The virus is doing something weird to immune cells and until we know more, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution.

There is also a type of autoimmune problem called antiphospholipid antibody syndrome which causes people to make clots.

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

Thanks. 

I do now recall reading in past about nac cancer issues. 

I use it particularly for its help for liver and processing toxins.   

 

CV19 seems to have malaria-like features. (Recurrence and clots aspects.)  I wonder if a virus can get active gene sequencing from a parasite.  Seems sci-fi realm, but ??? this is a very weird virus. 

 

You're probably fine taking it. At this point, I don't really think it's a big concern, definitely not for Covid. I really want you to try to ozone dialysis for your Lyme! I hate how much people charge for treatment. It really should be peanuts but some of the equipment is pricey (probably the dialysis machine). I think ozone (O2O3) is totally the way to go even though the US is calling it woo. It isn't. It's cheap and not patentable. That's the problem. LOL.

How viruses behave is so fascinating. It could very well have malaria-like features.

I think this is a good explanation pf the abnormal, atypical clotting that they're seeing.

 

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17 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Okay when it’s WHO I’m very skeptical, but this looks like fantastic news and falls in line with a lot of the observational data we are seeing in places like the meat packing plants and family members who seem to not be catching it from the employees who are asymptomatic.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html

Sort of, but not really....in that article:

She acknowledged that some studies have indicated asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread in nursing homes and in household settings. 

More research and data are needed to “truly answer” the question of whether the coronavirus can spread widely through asymptomatic carriers, Van Kerkhove added."

And from another article, walking back her earlier statement, she clarifies:

  • Van Kerkhov said the WHO estimates 16% of people are asymptomatic and can transmit the virus. Some models suggest up to 40% of coronavirus transmission might be due to asymptomatic spread, she added, but much more information is needed.
  • Van Kerkhove stressed that her comments on Monday were specific to particular studies and did not represent a new policy or direction.
15 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

They should basically be at herd immunity or very close then!  That’s a good thing though horrific that the number of deaths was so high.

Yeah...probably there or another 10-20% will need to get it, depending. But man, what a price to pay. 

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I have so many questions about Covid, that would be fascinating, it it weren't quite so tragic.  I guess no one really knows the answers.  But here's my first:

Around here, the positive testing rate is something like 5 percent, and this doesn't seem to change too much around the country -- it isn't, to my knowledge, 50% anywhere.  But, assuming that we aren't blanket testing everyone, and that the majority of people getting tested believe they have symptoms, or have been exposed to someone who has tested positive:

Who are the 95% who test negative?  Are there so many people who have symptoms of something else that isn't covid?  Is it people who have no symptoms, but think they may have been exposed?

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3 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

People who are infected but whose test does not pick up enough virus to test positive, or who get one of the tests with a high false-negative rate;

people who had it and now need a clear test to go back to work, like my aunt (got another positive even though symptoms have abated and has to wait and try again until she gets a negative)--especially people in health care, law enforcement, etc;

people who have other infections with overlapping symptoms who are trying to nail down what they have;

people who have been exposed or are at high risk for exposure, who may need to get tested frequently to ensure they're still negative (such as hospital workers who know they've cared for Covid patients);

probably people with no known risk for whom infection could be disastrous, like astronauts.

 

I could understand these if it where something like 50-50 positive to negative, but the fact that there are about 20 negatives for every positive, makes me wonder.

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I don't know. Good question: Who is getting tested and why?
What is the overall false negative rate nationally? (By definition, we can't be sure, or we'd only use the better test that shows it, I guess.)
 

My state has gone from "You Can't Get Tested Without a Proven Link to a Confirmed Case" to "Go Ahead and Get a Test if You Might Have Been Exposed or Have Symptoms."

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6 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

People like my son, who have recurrent symptoms that look like covid, and so get tested every time they interact with medical professionals. 

 

I'm genuinely sorry to hear this, and that must be a huge pain for you (and him), but surely this must be a tiny majority of all the testing?

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The other thing is that even if symptomatic, colds and flu and other viruses are still out there. Look at percent positive tests during peak flu season when symptomatic people go in to be tested for flu... it's a really low positive rate, usually under 10%. You want that low % positive to know that you're catching most cases. It's different with Covid because we're probably testing exposures and people recovering more than we would with flu, but still a good sign of the percent positive isn't high.

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And then the flip side is, how many infected people are still not getting tested at all? That number should be going down if the severity of symptoms stays the same, or may be increasing if the virus is getting less bad.

Are some people getting tested just out of curiosity? I would think not, given that it's such an unpleasant test.

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5 hours ago, whitehawk said:

Symptoms since June 5: intermittent elevated temperature (still not over 100F, ETA: currently 99.3 F or 37.39C, while my normal is ~97.5F), fatigue, cough with exertion (including talking while seated). I haven't had a high resting heart rate again, as far as I've noticed. Those few weeks without the cough were so nice. I have a telemed appointment with a PA Friday morning; the doctor apparently is only there on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and is booked for this week.

The doc has said she believes it's C19. Previous blood test ruled out inflammation, liver issues, I'm not sure what else (and the meds I tried before should have ruled out asthma, allergies, and bacterial infection). I think Lyme is flatly impossible given my symptoms (no joint pain, for example), and when and how it started (like a cold, at the same time that DS had all the same symptoms except the cough, and not after spending time outside). No flags for other conditions that I'm seeing (she asked about changes in appetite, for example).

I looked at clinicaltrials.gov last night and it does not appear that *anyone anywhere* is working on people who have already had mild symptoms for an extended time.

Before I relapsed, my hypothesis was that I just needed to re-grow respiratory cells, and that's why it took so long to stop coughing. I really did return gradually and gently to a more normal activity level, and DH was still making dinner, emptying the dishwasher, and taking care of the kitty litter. I only do my own laundry, not DH's or DS's. I made no effort to exercise beyond a three-block amble after dinner, and my doc had encouraged me to be active as tolerated.

I will probably go looking for the Slack channel. I've never used Slack before.

@Jokerhow are you?

I’m still back at having a mild cough (weirdly mostly when I laugh now) and the weird tickle in my chest still. Also, my sore throat is back this week. I had one week of feeling normal. Just under two weeks until I see a doctor in person.

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Every nursing home employee in the state of New York has been tested twice a week since May 10, but I haven't heard about anything similar in other states. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/new-york-nursing-homes-ask-state-to-ease-virus-test-mandate/2454002/

Twice a week isn't going well since it takes days to get results back, sometimes longer than the interval until the next test. We need rapid, accurate tests.

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Our state is going around and offering free tests. Our county has four testing days this week. Two days you have to pre-register and qualify. The next two days - walk up - no symptoms required for testing, all you need is a phone number and valid ID. 

Which makes no sense to me - you are testing people with no symptoms? And your state admits there is a backlog of tests as they prioritize some (high risk)?  Are you trying to make your positive result percentages go down? 

 

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1 hour ago, whitehawk said:

Every nursing home employee in the state of New York has been tested twice a week since May 10, but I haven't heard about anything similar in other states. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/new-york-nursing-homes-ask-state-to-ease-virus-test-mandate/2454002/

Twice a week isn't going well since it takes days to get results back, sometimes longer than the interval until the next test. We need rapid, accurate tests!

 

I believe that this was recommended by the executive branch (???) At least once per week, I think. Our state does not have the testing resources to do this.  I know the National Guard is working to help test in all the nursing homes in the state but the last I heard our state capacity was around 9500 tests/day total.

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2 hours ago, GGardner said:

I have so many questions about Covid, that would be fascinating, it it weren't quite so tragic.  I guess no one really knows the answers.  But here's my first:

Around here, the positive testing rate is something like 5 percent, and this doesn't seem to change too much around the country -- it isn't, to my knowledge, 50% anywhere.  But, assuming that we aren't blanket testing everyone, and that the majority of people getting tested believe they have symptoms, or have been exposed to someone who has tested positive:

Who are the 95% who test negative?  Are there so many people who have symptoms of something else that isn't covid?  Is it people who have no symptoms, but think they may have been exposed?

 

Some other novel virus that has been set loose?

 

and/Or a lot of false negative tests?

 

it interested me that for the canine CV19 detection study, the samples where the hospitals thought they knew who had CV19 and who did not, included 2 samples that were supposed to be negative, but the dogs identified them as positive and it turned out the dogs were correct.  (Good thing they rechecked the patients, instead of simply concluding the dogs were wrong.)

But false negative tests seems to be a significant problem even for patients sick

enou to be in hospital with something. 

 

Some of the 95% are probably also patients who had CV19 in hospital and are getting their discharged as being free of virus tests, in some situations 2 tests are supposed to be negative for virus to be considered well.  So any one positive patient may easily generate a couple additional negative tests after care in hospital.  And possibly a false negative before getting a positive... 

 

 

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@Farrar@Pen

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/george-floyd-protests-covid-19-military-12821600

“WASHINGTON: Members of the Washington DC national guard have tested positive for COVID-19 in the wake of their deployment during recent protests in the US capital, the guard said Tuesday (Jun 9).

DC National Guard spokeswoman Lieutenant Colonel Brooke Davis said they could not reveal the number of positive tests due to "operational security". 

She said they came after the 1,700 members were demobilised following service during the protests that erupted in front of the White House and elsewhere over the killing of African American George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer.

The guard were mobilised by the mayor and then the federal government on Jun 1 to help keep order after protests turned into rioting and looting.

They were screened for COVID-19 before and after deployment, Davis said.

While many protesters wore masks during the unrest, not all did, and many law enforcement and guard personnel also went without.

"National Guard personnel are social distancing and use of PPE measures remained in place where practical throughout" the deployment, Davis said.”

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2 hours ago, whitehawk said:

And then the flip side is, how many infected people are still not getting tested at all? That number should be going down if the severity of symptoms stays the same, or may be increasing if the virus is getting less bad.

Anecdotal but I heard of a recent positive case in my county. It is a child. Word on the street is "they" (parents?) think child got it from playing with neighborhood kids who are children of a person who works in close contact w/public (e.g., hair dresser, eye doctor). Parents of + child are now in self-quarantine but (from my info) are not going to be tested. No contact tracing on who might have infected child. If parents of + child aren't tested, then their co-workers will not know if they should self-quarantine or be tested. It seems very, very messed up. I don't know why child was tested (symptoms?). My state has recently started seeing cases of children with that weird MIS-C condition.

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14 hours ago, whitehawk said:

So after doing better and better from mid-May to June 4--and having been able to resume normal activities like doing laundry, buying groceries in person, and washing my car--I've relapsed.

No idea what's going on. Throw me your ideas. I'm going to call my doctor again, but with some reluctance given how little was accomplished via my previous care.

Just throwing out something completely different.  Ignore if way off base 🙂

Your first sets of dates coincides with the lockdown.  Maybe something in the house. It was winter.  You felt better after lockdown was lifted and you got out more in the spring.  Now the weather is warmer- is the AC on and house closed up again?

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