wuhan - coronavirus

[RootAnn]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

The U.S. Coast Guard has directed all cruise ships to remain at sea where they may be sequestered “indefinitely" during the coronavirus pandemic and be prepared to send any severely ill passengers to the countries where the vessels are registered. 

This sounds like the worst thing ever for the people on board since we've already seen the virus will just keep spreading on board.

[Arcadia]

4 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

This sounds like the worst thing ever for the people on board since we've already seen the virus will just keep spreading on board.

I think that directive is more to prevent Florida’s ports and other ports in US to be used as “dumping ground” by cruise ship operators. All the other countries are rejecting requests to dock. 

[BusyMom5]

I feel some sympathy for those on board the cruise ships... but sometimes stupid decisions have repercussions.  They boarded ships knowing it was a pandemic.  It isn't fair to dump them on port cities who are already going to be strained dealing with their own citizens.  Maybe if every country promised to move their citizens out within so many hours?  Whatever the solution,  it should be shared by the countries of the travelers and should not impact care to residents of the port cities.  

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I feel some sympathy for those on board the cruise ships... but sometimes stupid decisions have repercussions.  They boarded ships knowing it was a pandemic.  It isn't fair to dump them on port cities who are already going to be strained dealing with their own citizens.  Maybe if every country promised to move their citizens out within so many hours?  Whatever the solution,  it should be shared by the countries of the travelers and should not impact care to residents of the port cities.  

 

 

What I don't get are these articles that include quotes from passengers like "three weeks ago when we boarded, we didn't know that it was a pandemic".  What rock were they living under?  We've known a lot longer than three weeks ago that there was a pandemic.  They just didn't want to acknowledge it or have it mess with their vacation plans.   (And yes, the "three weeks" was an accurate quote from an article posted today by NBC.)

Edited April 1, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle

[Slache]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

What I don't get are these articles that include quotes from passengers like "three weeks ago when we boarded, we didn't know that it was a pandemic".  What rock were they living under?  We've known a lot longer than three weeks ago that there was a pandemic.  They just didn't want to acknowledge it or have it mess with their vacation plans. 

The no refunds rock.

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

What I don't get are these articles that include quotes from passengers like "three weeks ago when we boarded, we didn't know that it was a pandemic".  What rock were they living under? 

Perhaps the one created by various talk radio and "news" personalities who were still insisting this was a minor illness and all the "hysteria" was a politically-motivated hoax. The primary audience of those shows tends to be the same older demographic that takes cruises. Also I think the news report said only 300 were Americans, so some of the passengers may be from countries where the news was even more "filtered" than it is here.

I agree that anyone who was paying attention and listening to reputable news sources should have known that taking a cruise right now was a really bad idea, but I can also see how people who were being told by their preferred news sources that it was no big deal, combined with cruise lines that were insisting everything was fine and refusing to give refunds, could have thought the risks were quite low. 

I certainly understand the POV of those who don't want everyone unloaded in FL and overwhelming their healthcare system, but I also don't think its morally defensible to just leave thousands of people stranded on ships to survive or die without adequate care. I think they should at least let the Americans off and put them in quarantine, and find a way to let other countries get their own citizens home as well. 

 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

Hmmm, interesting: 

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/cells-response-to-sars-cov-2-different-from-flu-rsv-67358?utm_campaign=TS_DAILY NEWSLETTER_2020&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=85584515&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--Gr0xO7HiJVgL-XXxF-Wo1X-l_Bl3SRwtq-G7IoKIWP8UEVV-cw2DiU1Uw71aqz9JSve2ew0h2gm-RAVO7L7bj5fSsYw&_hsmi=85584515

These findings seem like they would be pretty significant, but I'm not sure I fully understand them. Are they saying that the human immune system tends to under-react to this virus, possibly because it is "turning off" some of the genes that regulate the response? It sounds like it does trigger some things (cytokines), but not others (interferon I & III)? Based on anecdotal reports on individual cases, it seems like younger people who get extremely sick or die from this tend to get critical very quickly, within days of the first symptoms, while older people deteriorate much more slowly over the course of 2-3 weeks or more. Maybe the deaths in younger healthier people are more likely to be caused by cytokine storm, while older people whose immune systems are less robust to begin with are further "under-reacting" due to specific characteristics of the virus, and after several weeks of trying, weakly, to fight it off their defenses are eventually overwhelmed? 

I would love for someone who fully understands this article to explain the implications for treatment at a "Virology for Dummies" sort of level...

[SKL]

59 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

What I don't get are these articles that include quotes from passengers like "three weeks ago when we boarded, we didn't know that it was a pandemic".  What rock were they living under?  We've known a lot longer than three weeks ago that there was a pandemic.  They just didn't want to acknowledge it or have it mess with their vacation plans.   (And yes, the "three weeks" was an accurate quote from an article posted today by NBC.)

WHO declared it a pandemic on March 11, which was just exactly 3 weeks ago today.  My kids haven't even been out of school for 3 whole weeks yet.

I would not have traveled, but still, things were a lot different 3 weeks ago than they are today.

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

WHO declared it a pandemic on March 11, which was just exactly 3 weeks ago today.  My kids haven't even been out of school for 3 whole weeks yet.

I would not have traveled, but still, things were a lot different 3 weeks ago than they are today.

People were calling for WHO to call it a pandemic long before that. 

[TracyP]

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

These findings seem like they would be pretty significant, but I'm not sure I fully understand them. Are they saying that the human immune system tends to under-react to this virus, possibly because it is "turning off" some of the genes that regulate the response? It sounds like it does trigger some things (cytokines), but not others (interferon I & III)? Based on anecdotal reports on individual cases, it seems like younger people who get extremely sick or die from this tend to get critical very quickly, within days of the first symptoms, while older people deteriorate much more slowly over the course of 2-3 weeks or more. Maybe the deaths in younger healthier people are more likely to be caused by cytokine storm, while older people whose immune systems are less robust to begin with are further "under-reacting" due to specific characteristics of the virus, and after several weeks of trying, weakly, to fight it off their defenses are eventually overwhelmed? 

I would love for someone who fully understands this article to explain the implications for treatment at a "Virology for Dummies" sort of level...

This is exactly how I understand it, but I feel way over my head... I *think* that upregulating ACE2 receptors would be a good thing, if I'm reading this correctly. This article talks about the role of ACE2 receptors as well. In terms of treatment it suggests upping vit d ( @Pen has mentioned that throughout this thread) and starting ventilation sooner.

https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-24

[kbutton]

6 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Comment from Dr Paul Kelly (deputy chief Medical officer for Australia). “In fact, up to now, we’ve never had a successful vaccine against a coronavirus (other than COVID-19).

“This is (an) experimental time.”

This comment concerns me.  I have seen mention of significant issues with attempted SARS vaccines.  

I can't remember if I saw this link here, but there have been attempts that were shelved for lack of funding/interest/urgency. https://abc7.com/coronavirus-vaccine-covid-19-texas-health/5998338/ 

[Pen]

47 minutes ago, TracyP said:

This is exactly how I understand it, but I feel way over my head... I *think* that upregulating ACE2 receptors would be a good thing, if I'm reading this correctly. This article talks about the role of ACE2 receptors as well. In terms of treatment it suggests upping vit d ( @Pen has mentioned that throughout this thread) and starting ventilation sooner.

https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m810/rr-24

 

I’m not sure one wants to either upregulate or downregulate ACE2, but if breathing is a problem, I think getting help sooner rather than later (Like before a ventilator would be needed at all) when maybe just an O2 tank would help enough, for example, might be beneficial if the hospital situation allows.  Unfortunately once it gets to an area like parts of Italy or NYC (Queens) only “later” may be considered for limited care resources. 

I’ll use this moment to link the Vitamin D slide show (which also relates to ACE2 receptors) again:

https://www.vitamindservice.de/coronavirus-e

 

(Eta: people who are sicker seem to have fewer ACE2 receptors possibly—?   But up regulated ACE2 for someone may just mean more receptors  for SARS-CoV-2 to attach to and replicate.   vitamin D seems promising to me in seeming to inhibit the ability of the virus to use the receptors and possibly to upregulate ability to fight off the virus   ...   and something we can do at home ...  non invasive and relatively inexpensive....   and if the appropriate co-vitamins are also taken probably also pretty safe...   )

Edited April 1, 2020 by Pen

[TCB]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Perhaps the one created by various talk radio and "news" personalities who were still insisting this was a minor illness and all the "hysteria" was a politically-motivated hoax. The primary audience of those shows tends to be the same older demographic that takes cruises. Also I think the news report said only 300 were Americans, so some of the passengers may be from countries where the news was even more "filtered" than it is here.

I agree that anyone who was paying attention and listening to reputable news sources should have known that taking a cruise right now was a really bad idea, but I can also see how people who were being told by their preferred news sources that it was no big deal, combined with cruise lines that were insisting everything was fine and refusing to give refunds, could have thought the risks were quite low. 

I certainly understand the POV of those who don't want everyone unloaded in FL and overwhelming their healthcare system, but I also don't think its morally defensible to just leave thousands of people stranded on ships to survive or die without adequate care. I think they should at least let the Americans off and put them in quarantine, and find a way to let other countries get their own citizens home as well. 

 

Also, I don’t know how justified Florida is in complaining about the cruise ships lack of forward thinking when they haven’t exactly done a stellar job at that either. 

[ktgrok]

I think that it is shameful to deny medical help to American citizens because they traveled, if the US government wasn't issuing a travel restriction or banning travel. Especially if the US government was downplaying the severity. You can't tell people it is okay to travel, then when they do say, "sorry, you should have known better, feel free to die now". Our own citizens? On this very board I recall people around that time saying they would still cruise, and had hoped there would be deals offered they could snatch up. 

I mean, yes, it was not smart. But we have a LOT of not smart citizens, lol. We generally still treat them when sick. 

There has been SO much misinformation put out there about this virus, I can't truly blame people for underestimating it 3 weeks ago. Heck, even Dr Fauci said something just recently about how we are getting "an inkling" that this may be spread by asymptomatic people, not just coughs/sneezes. Um, hello? The boardies here have known that for WEEKS but he's just saying, "well, maybe" now? No wonder people made poor decisions, given such wishy washy advice!

[mumto2]

Holland America/Carnaval has certainly known taking passengers on cruises every since the beginning of February when they stranded my friend on the Westerdam..........I blame the corporate entity more than the passengers.

Btw so has the other main cruise group......Diamond Princess anyone?

Edited April 1, 2020 by mumto2

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, TCB said:

Also, I don’t know how justified Florida is in complaining about the cruise ships lack of forward thinking when they haven’t exactly done a stellar job at that either. 

Yup, Just today did the governor finally agree to set a stay at home order for the whole state. 

I do think it makes sense to have the cruise ships come to maybe canveral, not miami, given the situation in Miami Dade and Broward counties. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

16 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes, Chinese people here seem to have been advocating for closures and can’t believe people not wearing masks etc.  I think they probably had more direct info as to what was really happening. 

They have seen inside video footages and know the real death number in China; westerners do not. So there is that. 

[Arcadia]

17 minutes ago, TCB said:

Also, I don’t know how justified Florida is in complaining about the cruise ships lack of forward thinking when they haven’t exactly done a stellar job at that either. 

To be fair, the cruise ship industry was forewarned by Diamond Princess with their first case on February 4th. Cruise line operators were not willing to cancel future trips and refund the money. 

[JadeOrchidSong]

59 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

People were calling for WHO to call it a pandemic long before that. 

And why did WHO NOT call it a pandemic? Is it possible that China gave WHO pressure to not call it a pandemic for fear of economic loss? 

[JadeOrchidSong]

6 hours ago, Slache said:

What interests me more is the urn count. 

I saw today that Mr. Sun Jiatong, the Wuhan official in charge of Civil Affairs Bureau  said that the death number was 21,703 as of March 30. I think this numbe is much more believable than the 2500 deaths in Wuhan published by the Chinese government, though even this number is not big enough to be the real number. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong
Wrong spelling

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

I saw today that Mr. Sun Jiatong, the Wuhan official in charge of cremation said that the death number was 21,703 as of March 30. I think this numbe is much more believable than the 2500 deaths in Wuhan published by the Chinese government. 

But that's not nearly 2% of Wuhan. Of course that does not include the 5 million that fled before the lockdown or the supposed piles of bodies being burned in the streets if you believe the tales.

We will never know the truth.

[JadeOrchidSong]

8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

And that's just in Wuhan? 

Yes. Sun Jiatong is a Wuhan official, leader of Wuhan Civil Affairs Bureau. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by JadeOrchidSong

[Arcadia]

4 minutes ago, square_25 said:

I mean, we were all warned by Italy, but that didn't lead to us immediately shutting down the country :P. People don't like losing money. 

Air travel was reduced. Countries closed borders. The cruise ship industry of course do not like losing money but the first deaths from Diamond Princess’ coronavirus cases were reported on Feb 20th 😡
 

Quoted is from Jan 30th https://qz.com/1793858/wuhan-virus-borders-closed-airlines-cancel-china-flights/

“The US and Britain have issued travel warnings for China in light of the outbreak. Globally, more than a dozen airlines have suspended routes to mainland China. United Airlines cited a “significant decline in demand” for its move—China has quarantined over a dozen cities and barred overseas travel by tour groups. While some have cut flights for two weeks, in some cases the suspensions stretch until April.

...
Here’s a list of moves to restrict entry for Chinese nationals:

Mongolia: Closed China border crossings

Philippines: Halted visas on arrival for Chinese nationals

Hong Kong: Closing direct trains and ferries; closing some border crossings; Beijing to halt individual visitor permits starting Jan. 30

Kazakhstan: Closed all transport links and stopped visa issuance to Chinese nationals

Macau: Suspended individual visitors from mainland China; suspended ferries to Hong Kong

Nepal: Sealed border with China for two weeks from Jan. 29

North Korea: Closed its borders to all foreign tourists

Russia: Banned Chinese tour groups, closed Far Eastern borders; suspends e-visas for Chinese nationals

Taiwan: Barred entry to most Chinese nationals

Vietnam: Closed border crossing at Lao Cai to Chinese tourists; visas on arrival suspended for mainland China, Macau, and Hong Kong residents”

[Corraleno]

28 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

I saw today that Mr. Sun Jiatong, the Wuhan official in charge of cremation said that the death number was 21,703 as of March 30. I think this numbe is much more believable than the 2500 deaths in Wuhan published by the Chinese government. 

Is that the total number of bodies that required cremation in Wuhan from January through March?

[ktgrok]

Right, but at that point the talking heads were saying it was a Chinese problem, not something you'd pick up on vacation in bermuda or wherever cruises go these days. 

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Right, but at that point the talking heads were saying it was a Chinese problem, not something you'd pick up on vacation in bermuda or wherever cruises go these days. 

Exactly — and the ships that are now stuck off the coast of FL were nowhere near Asia, or even Europe. At the time the Zaandam left Buenos Aires, there were few if any cases in South America, and most people on the ship may have assumed, based on what they were hearing on the news and from the cruise lines, that they were safe since they weren't going anywhere near the hotspots. The fact that flights from China may have been shut down back then would not have seemed in any way relevant to people traveling from Argentina to Florida.

[Arcadia]

Coral Princess

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-bz-another-ship-with-sick-onboard-heading-to-fort-lauderdale-20200331-2pok2ylw7vc33me5gmphmk5kha-story.html

“Another cruise ship with sick people on board is planning to disembark in Fort Lauderdale, as the U.S. Coast Guard considers sequestering ships “indefinitely” to deal with increased demand for medical evacuations from the fleet of cruise ships creeping off South Florida’s coast with nowhere to go.

The Coast Guard is now directing ships registered in the Bahamas to seek aid from that country first, even if the ships are owned by U.S.-based companies. The agency simply can’t keep up with the strain on its resources, according to a public memo.

The Coast Guard says ships carrying more than 50 persons on board should prepare to care for those aboard with influenza-like illnesses "for an indefinite period of time” rather than relying on the Coast Guard to evacuate sick passengers.

Princess Cruises’ Coral Princess has a “higher-than-normal” number of people with flu-like symptoms and plans to bring them to Port Everglades on April 4 following a service call in Bridgetown, Barbados, on Tuesday night, the cruise line said in a statement released Tuesday.

“Many” of the sick passengers have tested positive for regular influenza, the statement said, adding, “However, given the concern surrounding COVID-19 and out of an abundance of caution, guests have been asked to self-isolate in their staterooms and all meals will now be delivered by room service.”

Crew members will remain in their staterooms when not working, the statement said.

It is not known whether any of the sick people are carrying COVID-19. Ships typically do not have tests on board. Officials of Princess Cruises and its parent company, Miami-based Carnival Corp., did not immediately respond to questions about the matter.”

[TCB]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

Quoting myself because JAMALive answered my question. 
https://youtu.be/c7s3fS6RTlQ

 

That was very interesting. I think there are several things that make it difficult to know what to do:

1. The lack of good PPE has made it necessary to choose less risky therapies such as intubation over others such as NIV or HFNC to try and protect staff so we haven’t adequately tried some of these other less invasive therapies.

2. The fact that patients can deteriorate so quickly - we’ve seen this on my unit - means that we feel safer intubating earlier so we don’t let dangerous things happen.

A really interesting thing the professor in that podcast talked about was the difficulty of dealing with the crisis and caring for patients while also learning and developing new methods.

It’s really a very difficult situation and after hearing him talk it also hit home to me how long it may go on for.

[Bootsie]

20 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Air travel was reduced. Countries closed borders. The cruise ship industry of course do not like losing money but the first deaths from Diamond Princess’ coronavirus cases were reported on Feb 20th 😡
 

Quoted is from Jan 30th https://qz.com/1793858/wuhan-virus-borders-closed-airlines-cancel-china-flights/

“The US and Britain have issued travel warnings for China in light of the outbreak. Globally, more than a dozen airlines have suspended routes to mainland China. United Airlines cited a “significant decline in demand” for its move—China has quarantined over a dozen cities and barred overseas travel by tour groups. While some have cut flights for two weeks, in some cases the suspensions stretch until April.

...
Here’s a list of moves to restrict entry for Chinese nationals:

Mongolia: Closed China border crossings

Philippines: Halted visas on arrival for Chinese nationals

Hong Kong: Closing direct trains and ferries; closing some border crossings; Beijing to halt individual visitor permits starting Jan. 30

Kazakhstan: Closed all transport links and stopped visa issuance to Chinese nationals

Macau: Suspended individual visitors from mainland China; suspended ferries to Hong Kong

Nepal: Sealed border with China for two weeks from Jan. 29

North Korea: Closed its borders to all foreign tourists

Russia: Banned Chinese tour groups, closed Far Eastern borders; suspends e-visas for Chinese nationals

Taiwan: Barred entry to most Chinese nationals

Vietnam: Closed border crossing at Lao Cai to Chinese tourists; visas on arrival suspended for mainland China, Macau, and Hong Kong residents”

All of this had to do with travel in Asia.  At the time travel in South America was not considered risky. for COVID.   Diamond Princess was sailing in Asia and the initial incidence was tied to an Asian passenger.  I wouldn't get on a plane or go on a cruise to Asia on March 7, but I do not see how that is a warning that a cruise half-way around the word was that risky.  

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

People were calling for WHO to call it a pandemic long before that. 

Well as I said back then ... people don't know what or whom to believe thanks to a history of fake news from every outlet.  Skepticism is the natural first defense.  Now we have hindsight they didn't have then.

Again ... I would not have traveled, but I don't blame people for questioning if that is what happened. 

My sister took a cruise with her kids in late February.  She said that the cruise ship gave her many assurances about how they were going to make sure it was safe.  She believed them.  It turned out her cruise was safe.  If people had cruise tickets, they probably figured that as long as ships were allowed to sail, it was probably OK.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well as I said back then ... people don't know what or whom to believe thanks to a history of fake news from every outlet.  Skepticism is the natural first defense.  Now we have hindsight they didn't have then.

Again ... I would not have traveled, but I don't blame people for questioning if that is what happened. 

My sister took a cruise with her kids in late February.  She said that the cruise ship gave her many assurances about how they were going to make sure it was safe.  She believed them.  It turned out her cruise was safe.  If people had cruise tickets, they probably figured that as long as ships were allowed to sail, it was probably OK.

Making it sound like false or misleading news stories are equally spread throughout all media is exactly the type of thinking that got us into this mess and will prolong the pain and suffering of all types.

[gardenmom5]

and . . . .

 

Josie Wright, 33, was taken into custody for stealing the masks and other medical supplies from Bassett Medical Center in Cooperstown. 

 

  you know other people are doing it too at other locations.  (just like the guys price gouging in TN weren't the only ones - they just went public to whine about not being able to sell their $1 bottles of sanitizer for $70.)  disgusting people.

Edited April 1, 2020 by gardenmom5
link

[mathnerd]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

I mean, we kind of knew this, but ouch:

https://disrn.com/news/us-intel-concludes-china-reported-fake-numbers-to-conceal-true-size-of-coronavirus-outbreak

Agree. Don’t need intel agencies to tell the world that China is lying.

[Lanny]

I have not read all of the responses in this thread so if this has previously been reported, please forgive me and delete this reply. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the  passengers aboard the Cruise ships that are trying to dock in Florida are U.S. Citizens or Green  Card holders.  It would also be interesting to know which countries those Cruise ships are registered  in.  If they are not registered in the USA (most of them are not)  they are not U.S. ships and they are not U.S. companies.

It isn't my usual source of news, but this NPR article has some interesting information about this issue and why they probably will not be allowed to dock in Florida. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/01/825205607/coast-guard-tells-cruise-ships-with-covid-19-cases-to-stay-away-from-u-s-ports

For example, if some of the ships are registered in the Bahamas, they should go to the Bahamas. Ships registered in Panama should go to Panama. Etc.

[73349]

[question answered, thanks]

Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I certainly understand the POV of those who don't want everyone unloaded in FL and overwhelming their healthcare system, but I also don't think its morally defensible to just leave thousands of people stranded on ships to survive or die without adequate care. I think they should at least let the Americans off and put them in quarantine, and find a way to let other countries get their own citizens home as well. 

 

Florida benefits financially from the cruise industry more than any other state.  The cruise industry contributes billions of dollars to the Florida economy. This helps build the infrastructure that Floridians enjoy.  I find it a bit disheartening that Florida wants cruise ships when it benefits them financially but not when there are health concerns.  

[gardenmom5]

someone brought up that in china the only people listed as dying from covi19 were those with zero preexisting conditions.  if they had a preexisting condition - that is listed as their cause of death.  it's how they list deaths.  I know different countries do have different policies on how they list deaths.

then they had to actually test someone - those that died without being tested were listed as something else.   Italy has said something similar - but they're upfront about it.  that people who die at home haven't been tested, and they'll probably never know the true number of deaths.

[JadeOrchidSong]

50 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Is that the total number of bodies that required cremation in Wuhan from January through March?

Supposedly. But I do not trust this number. This number is downplayed by a lot! 

[gardenmom5]

54 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Is that the total number of bodies that required cremation in Wuhan from January through March?

Wuhan is ONE city in the province of Hubei.  Other cities across China were also locked down.  Every province had deaths - anyone saying everything was in Wuhan is either ignorant or lying.

I recently saw a report of relaxing restrictions in Wuhan, but maintaining them in adjacent cities - and the resulting riots by those residents.

[JadeOrchidSong]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

someone brought up that in china the only people listed as dying from covi19 were those with zero preexisting conditions.  if they had a preexisting condition - that is listed as their cause of death.  it's how they list deaths.  I know different countries do have different policies on how they list deaths.

then they had to actually test someone - those that died without being tested were listed as something else.   Italy has said something similar - but they're upfront about it.  that people who die at home haven't been tested, and they'll probably never know the true number of deaths.

Many died at home (I heard 60% died at home and 40% at hospitals) because they were refused by overcrowded hospitals. Some died in the hospitals before there was time to test them. These two groups are NOT counted in the death number. China heavily covered up even the death number of tested patients. 

[TCB]

It really does seem like this thread on the Chat board of the WTM forum had more idea of what was going on than just about anyone and any country!

[gardenmom5]

Just now, TCB said:

It really does seem like this thread on the Chat board of the WTM forum had more idea of what was going on than just about anyone and any country!

dh mails with his nephews.  he shared some of the information on deaths in china that came up here.  one nephew attacked that information, and denigrated "homeschooling" moms.  (his prejudices are showing).  his wife is still a registered nurse in china, even though she's now living in the US, so as far as he was concerned she would know if that was correct (she hasn't worked in a hospital in china for several years).  I admit I was shocked that the other nephew actually found information backing up those claims and said "the homeschoolers" are right.

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, TCB said:

It really does seem like this thread on the Chat board of the WTM forum had more idea of what was going on than just about anyone and any country!

I think there is some head in the sand by officials - afraid to shut things down/etc.   Sweden is still pretty much business as usual, there experts there begging for things to be closed as they're afraid of current conditions leading to a disaster there.

 

[Pen]

21 minutes ago, Lanny said:

I have not read all of the responses in this thread so if this has previously been reported, please forgive me and delete this reply. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the  passengers aboard the Cruise ships that are trying to dock in Florida are U.S. Citizens or Green  Card holders.  It would also be interesting to know which countries those Cruise ships are registered  in.  If they are not registered in the USA (most of them are not)  they are not U.S. ships and they are not U.S. companies.

It isn't my usual source of news, but this NPR article has some interesting information about this issue and why they probably will not be allowed to dock in Florida. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/01/825205607/coast-guard-tells-cruise-ships-with-covid-19-cases-to-stay-away-from-u-s-ports

For example, if some of the ships are registered in the Bahamas, they should go to the Bahamas. Ships registered in Panama should go to Panama. Etc.

 

I think that is what the US Coast Guard wants also. 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think there is some head in the sand by officials - afraid to shut things down/etc.   Sweden is still pretty much business as usual, there experts there begging for things to be closed as they're afraid of current conditions leading to a disaster there.

 

 

Sweden seemed to be doing an “experiment” which actually seemed useful since geography and probably human host conditions are reasonably parallel with Norway. 

Like with UK though, the keep things going and let CV19 run its course experiment seems not to be going well and size of gatherings allowed is being reduced, etc, — much as we saw elsewhere.   Population is not necessarily following along, but neither is USA or nor UK nor other places...   It seems like it’s a joke till it hits home closely enough. 

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, JadeOrchidSong said:

Supposedly. But I do not trust this number. This number is downplayed by a lot! 

So that would be a total of 21,000 cremations for people who died of all causes (not just CV19) over a three month period in Wuhan. Yet there were more than 56,000 cremations in Wuhan in the last quarter of 2019, which was only slightly higher than stats for the last quarter of 2018. So the normal number of cremations one would expect in Wuhan in the first quarter of 2020 would be over 50,000 even without CV19. I guess if half the population fled the city and those who died of "normal" causes died elsewhere, that could explain some of the discrepancy. But it doesn't really make sense that there would be 30,000 fewer cremations than normal in Wuhan during a pandemic, so I wouldn't put much stock in those numbers either.

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Yep!  This thread is why my family, my neighbor, my in-laws, and my parents were prepared long before the rush set in.  Right now, I’m waiting on my test to come back and instead of panicking like I would have if I relied on the media, I’m not really concerned, and definitely not panicked.  I do better knowing the facts.  Thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge with us. 

By late January we nearly called off our trip to SF  in early Feb to visit my parents. It was OBVIOUS then that this was going to be huge. 

The government has zero excuses. Full stop. 
 

[Frances]

On 3/31/2020 at 11:03 AM, wilrunner said:

Millions of n95 masks already in the US continue to be sold to the highest foreign bidders while frontline healthcare workers here go without.
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2020/03/30/i-spent-a-day-in-the-coronavirus-driven-feeding-frenzy-of-n95-mask-sellers-and-buyers-and-this-is-what-i-learned/#74abf84156d4

[Pen]

@Plum @TCB @SeaConquest @gardenmom5 At others who may know people in medical fields in hard hit areas...

If anyone knows anyone (or via 6 degrees of separation knows anyone) with confirmed CV19 who would be willing to try a cheap personal experiment with a homeopathic remedy, there are a few being promoted as possibly of help.

 I am skeptical that people who have supposedly been helped actually had CV19 in first place. However,  If a few conventional medical people with confirmed CV19 gave it a try and found it helpful, that would be good to know, even though still just anecdotal. I think at worst it would be a $10 or so investment in some sugar pills. 

From a known veterinarian who is into natural care of dogs and cats and is into homeopathy: 

https://m.facebook.com/rpitcairn/posts/10156865820331817

Another veterinarian who was sick, but did not have a test to confirm CV19, so it could just have been a bad cold found the Nux Vomica helpful.

 I think it needs, even if anecdotal, someone or several people with confirmed CV19 to give it a try.

 This in no way needs to mean Not doing anything else considered useful.

Though a homeopathic dose should probably be separated from anything else, including eating and brushing teeth by about 1/2 hour. 

[Corraleno]

29 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Wuhan is ONE city in the province of Hubei.  Other cities across China were also locked down.  Every province had deaths - anyone saying everything was in Wuhan is either ignorant or lying.

I recently saw a report of relaxing restrictions in Wuhan, but maintaining them in adjacent cities - and the resulting riots by those residents.

Yes I know Wuhan is just one city and every province had deaths. My point is that the posts and links to articles such s the one implying that millions of cancelled cell phone plans is proof that millions died of CV, or that deliveries of thousands of urns and reports of 20,000+ plus cremations in Wuhan suggest tens of thousands of CV deaths in Wuhan alone, ignore the fact that there would normally be around 3 million deaths in China, including 50,000+ in Wuhan, during this 3-month period even without CV19. I don't doubt that China is lying about the number of CV deaths, but none of the numbers that have been cited here are evidence that CV caused 20,000+ deaths in Wuhan or millions of deaths throughout China.