wuhan - coronavirus

[Terabith]

21 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

And then there are other people I know, or whose comments I read online, who seem to think that the closing came out of nowhere.  I hear people saying things like "We didn't tell the kids to remember to take their glasses home, so I've got kids who won't be able to read till they get back to school in September."  Not because they forgot but because it didn't occur to them that the last day might be the last day.  

Parents aren't even allowed to go collect their children's belongings???  

I started following this thread when it started, and based on advice here started stocking up on pantry stuff (including toilet paper), making meal plans, and got a pulse oximeter in early to mid February.  My husband (who works at a hospital) thought I was seriously overreacting, but he recently said, "Thank God for your forum.  It's relieved so much of my stress knowing that we were more prepared.  Your forum was at least six weeks ahead of my hospital in terms of predictions and making preparations." 

[Slache]

38 minutes ago, TCB said:

It really does seem like this thread on the Chat board of the WTM forum had more idea of what was going on than just about anyone and any country!

I've seen this repeatedly with the hive. Nothing this big has happened before, but you guys are far more reliable than the news, and typically way ahead as well.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Slache

[Kassia]

34 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Agree.  It looked out of scale for the first two weeks but increasingly I’d say our crazy crew was on top of the data better than 95% of the sources I’ve seen.  Even when reports changed or weren’t complete I would say it was faster to get much of the adjustments here than almost anywhere else online.

🏆 Top marks, ladies!

 

36 minutes ago, TCB said:

It really does seem like this thread on the Chat board of the WTM forum had more idea of what was going on than just about anyone and any country!

 

One of my adult sons has told me TWICE now that I was right in predicting how bad things would get and how we needed to be prepared.  I never hear that I'm right from him!  In this case, I wish I wasn't though...

This thread really helped me and my family prepare.  A big thanks to all of you who contributed.  

[Pen]

19 minutes ago, Frances said:

Millions of n95 masks already in the US continue to be sold to the highest foreign bidders while frontline healthcare workers here go without.
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2020/03/30/i-spent-a-day-in-the-coronavirus-driven-feeding-frenzy-of-n95-mask-sellers-and-buyers-and-this-is-what-i-learned/#74abf84156d4

 

Horrifying.

[Slache]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

This thread really helped me and my family prepare.  A big thanks to all of you who contributed.  

Yes. I have loved ones all across the US and having people say things like "TP is low in this state" has been exponentially helpful.

[73349]

This forum works like I think NASA did in the 1950s/1960s: curious people from varied backgrounds bringing information from diverse sources, sifting it, criticizing inconsistencies or dubious conclusions, bouncing hypotheses off each other... it's not surprising that it would work better than the straight line of single source to journalist to news consumer.

[Pen]

Do you think 1 million official confirmed cases number will be reached today?

Or tomorrow?

 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

It is rather frustrating from the perspective that the experts here were responding based on the information they had but it was deliberately misconstrued.  One might think the public could have responded stronger and faster if the reporting was accurate, from the top tier down. 
 

When this sort of response is so directly predicated in data analysis and response it makes the, uh, incomplete reports all the more disturbing.  

Yes.  I had hoped they would look at what China was doing not just what they were saying. I also think that WHO maintaining the figures were accurate was a huge problem.  Having said that there were plenty of experts warning about this a while back.  

[Ausmumof3]

8 minutes ago, Pen said:

Do you think 1 million official confirmed cases number will be reached today?

Or tomorrow?

 

Today has just started for me here so I’m going with tomorrow though probably early hours of the morning here, because that’s when reports from several countries roll in. Can’t believe us cases has passed 200,000 so quickly.  

[Ausmumof3]

5 minutes ago, square_25 said:

You know, I find it vaguely comforting to watch the numbers -- it feels like if I know things, I'm more in control. (I'm sure it's illusory, but there it is.) 

And then I think about it and realize I don't really know anything. China's numbers are lies. Iran's numbers are lies. Lots of European numbers are serious underestimates because they don't record deaths due to other conditions/deaths at home/don't test at autopsy/whatever. We will probably never see anything like the correct numbers for India or Africa, because they do not have the ability to collect them. 

And then I get even more scared and feel even more powerless than I already do. 

Yep.  

[Slache]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

You know, I find it vaguely comforting to watch the numbers -- it feels like if I know things, I'm more in control. (I'm sure it's illusory, but there it is.) 

And then I think about it and realize I don't really know anything. China's numbers are lies. Iran's numbers are lies. Lots of European numbers are serious underestimates because they don't record deaths due to other conditions/deaths at home/don't test at autopsy/whatever. We will probably never see anything like the correct numbers for India or Africa, because they do not have the ability to collect them. 

And then I get even more scared and feel even more powerless than I already do. 

Don't. There's a lot we're missing, but what we do know is that it's not that bad. I'm not downplaying it and I'm not ignorant. Most people will be fine. A larger number will survive. We will lose people, we will get sick, and we will cry. It's going to possibly be harder than anything we've ever done, but we will persevere, and one day we will wake up and it will be over.

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Lanny said:

I have not read all of the responses in this thread so if this has previously been reported, please forgive me and delete this reply. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the  passengers aboard the Cruise ships that are trying to dock in Florida are U.S. Citizens or Green  Card holders.  It would also be interesting to know which countries those Cruise ships are registered  in.  If they are not registered in the USA (most of them are not)  they are not U.S. ships and they are not U.S. companies.

It isn't my usual source of news, but this NPR article has some interesting information about this issue and why they probably will not be allowed to dock in Florida. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/01/825205607/coast-guard-tells-cruise-ships-with-covid-19-cases-to-stay-away-from-u-s-ports

For example, if some of the ships are registered in the Bahamas, they should go to the Bahamas. Ships registered in Panama should go to Panama. Etc.

Same problem here.  Wa are now seeking backup from federal government to try to force ships to leave.  Must admit I feel sorry for the crew trapped on the ship. 

[Renai]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

Wuhan is ONE city in the province of Hubei.  Other cities across China were also locked down.  Every province had deaths - anyone saying everything was in Wuhan is either ignorant or lying.

I recently saw a report of relaxing restrictions in Wuhan, but maintaining them in adjacent cities - and the resulting riots by those residents.

Some of the clips hear them yelling, "Wuhan, jia you!" which is Wuhan, stay strong, the mantra throughout this whole ordeal, as they were locked down. That, folks, is the limit of my Chinese...

[Arcadia]

@Ausmumof3@Pen

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/04/01/coronavirus-thousands-carnival-passengers-sea-holland-america-florida/5101845002/
“Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said at a press conference Wednesday his state was willing to accept Floridians on board Holland America cruise ships seeking to disembark in Florida after more than 190 guests and crew reported flu-like symptoms, including eight passengers who tested positive for COVID-19.

Florida officials, DeSantis said, are "working on a solution" to disembark other passengers, including foreign nationals, in a way that does not drain resources in South Florida, the state’s epicenter of COVID-19 cases. 

"My concern is that we have worked so hard to make sure we have adequate hospital space in the event of a COVID-19 surge, we wouldn't want those valuable beds to be taken because of the cruise ship(s)," DeSantis said. 

... There are 24 guests from Florida on the MS Zaandam and 25 guests from Florida on the MS Rotterdam.”

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Sweden seemed to be doing an “experiment” which actually seemed useful since geography and probably human host conditions are reasonably parallel with Norway. 

Like with UK though, the keep things going and let CV19 run its course experiment seems not to be going well and size of gatherings allowed is being reduced, etc, — much as we saw elsewhere.   Population is not necessarily following along, but neither is USA or nor UK nor other places...   It seems like it’s a joke till it hits home closely enough. 

like with the spring breakers.  it's all fun and games until someone gets sick (which is happening.).  I admire the one dad who told his so - do not go to the beach for spring break.  the kid went.  he and his buddies had a great time.  had some trouble getting home, but they got there.  planned on staying at his house in NY before heading back to school I MA.  Dad refused to pick them up at the airport.  wouldn't let them in the house when they arrived.  pointed "there are groceries in the car trunk, and cash in an envelope.  have a nice drive back to MA."  his priority was protecting the rest of the family that were responsible about social distancing.

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

Don't worry. I've already seen the lists of homeopathic remedies to use if you catch the rona.

don't forget thyme on your feet.  I had a friend tell me that one last night - though I'm not sure if it's for coronavirus or pregnancy (2dd is expecting, but she also works in a hospital.)    deep breath . . . .  and another deep breath . . . . .oh blast it.

[ktgrok]

Regarding home remedies, I'm becoming a lot more skeptical of the claims taht garlic is antiviral, given how hard Italy got hit. I mean, I'm not going to outgarlic Italy, so if it didn't work for them, it can't be that great. 

[Ausmumof3]

Abc:  About 130 Australians who have been on the Ocean Atlantic cruise ship are now on their way back to Sydney from Montevideo, Uruguay via a special charter flight.

  

About 100 Australians remain on a separate cruise ship, the Greg Mortimer, anchored off Montevideo.

  

The ship does not have permission to dock because a few people on board have reported having fevers.

  

As we mentioned earlier, 250 stranded Australians and New Zealanders are also on their way to Brisbane after boarding a flight out of Nepal's capital Kathmandu.
  
Australia's Embassy in Nepal had asked the tourists to leave the country to relive the possible burden on its health system amid the coronavirus outbreak.

[Slache]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Regarding home remedies, I'm becoming a lot more skeptical of the claims taht garlic is antiviral, given how hard Italy got hit. I mean, I'm not going to outgarlic Italy, so if it didn't work for them, it can't be that great. 

I have always credited home remedies with making me feel better. With most illnesses I'm content with that. I wouldn't discredit them with this virus though. This is not a normal virus on many levels.

[mumto2]

I looked at something earlier today regarding the passengers on one of those the cruise ships and don’t feel like googling to find but slightly less than 25% (400Ish) are US.  Slightly more are Canadian who the cruise line promises to bus home.  So let’s bus potentially sick people home to Canada.......up through NewYork,  or maybe Detroit.  The drive to Detroit without stops is at least 22 hours.  I know that drive well.  The remaining 50% plus mainly European......UK and Germany were the largest proportion.
 

 Everyone needs to remember the Westerdam (where no one was ever positive......ever) was a disaster in disembarkation.  Holland America/Carnavel have a really bad track record with this.  Remember the Westerdam escapee to Oregon?   The publicized plan was supposed to be to load the passengers in very staggered shifts over a couple of days and take them directly to prepaid flights.  My understanding......remember I have a friend who was one of the passengers getting on a bus.  The tickets they were given didn’t work per media in some cases......others were stopped because a passenger had an unrelated fever.  My friends got home on their own....ended up buying their own flights.  They Were able to secure somewhat direct tickets. The cruise lines need to bus directly to chartered flights to each country and very possibly state over days.  Total lock down on the boat is required.  They have a mess that they should have known better than create.....

The next few days are really critical for Florida in terms of being overwhelmed.........the elderly make up one quarter of the residents.  Total of 6000 people sitting off the coast.......many not US residents.  It is a rather unfair burden to place a one state or even country when none of those boats are US flag carriers.

[Garga]

2 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

It is rather frustrating from the perspective that the experts here were responding based on the information they had but it was deliberately misconstrued.  One might think the public could have responded stronger and faster if the reporting was accurate, from the top tier down. 
 

When this sort of response is so directly predicated in data analysis and response it makes the, uh, incomplete reports all the more disturbing.  

 

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Oh, I would think that the experts could have seen the writing on the wall, if people on this thread could have! They had a lot more information than we did. I don't buy the excuse. 

 

2 hours ago, TCB said:

It really does seem like this thread on the Chat board of the WTM forum had more idea of what was going on than just about anyone and any country!

 

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

This has kind of made me want to figure out a way to influence events in the world more :-P. What's the point of having good judgment if you can't tell anyone about it? 😛

A lot of you were ahead of me, so even more so for the rest of you ;-). 

 

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Parents aren't even allowed to go collect their children's belongings???  

I started following this thread when it started, and based on advice here started stocking up on pantry stuff (including toilet paper), making meal plans, and got a pulse oximeter in early to mid February.  My husband (who works at a hospital) thought I was seriously overreacting, but he recently said, "Thank God for your forum.  It's relieved so much of my stress knowing that we were more prepared.  Your forum was at least six weeks ahead of my hospital in terms of predictions and making preparations." 

 

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

 

 

One of my adult sons has told me TWICE now that I was right in predicting how bad things would get and how we needed to be prepared.  I never hear that I'm right from him!  In this case, I wish I wasn't though...

This thread really helped me and my family prepare.  A big thanks to all of you who contributed.  

 

Bingo! To all of these!  And the others I didn’t quote, because I’d already quoted so many.

I started reading this thread when it started back in January and I know EVERYTHING about this stinkin’ virus now.  My poor Dh.  For the past 2.5 weeks, he’s been learning new things and every time he tells me something”’new” I’m like, “Oh yeah, I already know that!”  I didn’t realize I was doing it until after about a week in and thought I must have sounded like such a jerk.  No matter what he told me, I already knew it.  When I realized I was sounding like a know-it-all (even though I DO know it all!), I would just reply, “Oh yeah...” when he told me something “new”.

We talked over two months ago on this thread about the numbers in China and how they were wrong and why people thought so.  And now there are articles saying, “Gee...we think China might have been lying about the numbers! Gosh, if only we’d have known, we might have reacted better!”  Rolling my eyes really hard. Anyone in a position of authority had to have known. Pretending they didn’t is disingenuous and it irritates me, mostly because people will believe that no one knew. Hogwash!  If a bunch of moms on the internet knew, then the people in authority knew.

I wish I had told a few more friends to prepare, though.  I told one friend back in mid-February that I’d stocked up on about 2 or 3 weeks’ worth of food, TP, tissues, soap, hand lotion, vitamin D, etc, and she burst out laughing at me for being so “silly.”  And then I didn’t bother to tell anyone else, but I kinda wish I had told some of my more thoughtful friends so they could have been ready.  Honestly, back then, I was preparing in case they shut down my little town and the odds of that happening were small (so I thought), but I still figured it didn’t hurt to prepare.  I did NOT see it coming that entire states would shut down—cities, yes, entire states? No. So, I guess I didn’t know everything.

I have a nurse practitioner friend who is working in the tents around our local hospital taking care of non-Covid patients. I was talking to her about everything and it turns out I know more than she does.  It’s a little awkward.  I tell her things, but I can tell she doesn’t believe me, because I’m just a mom getting my information from a bunch of homeschoolers and she’s a medical practitioner.  Whatever. I’ve told her.  She’ll know that she heard it from me first when my information is confirmed to her. 

At minimum, I read this thread every morning over breakfast to get the overnight updates, read a bit at lunch, and then catch up on it before I go to bed to see what happened that day.  It’s been my ritual for over 2 months. Some days I wonder if I should let it all rest for a day and think about other things, but I can’t seem to let it rest.  I’m not anxious or scared, but I also feel like I can’t look away.  A boardie on this thread or maybe another thread said that reading about Covid is like being a cat watching a laser pointer—just can’t look away!

 

So, a big thank you to everyone who posts so we can all be informed.  

Edited April 2, 2020 by Garga

[Garga]

I posted this earlier on this thread about 100 pages ago, but was thinking about it again today.  

I’ve already packed a bag for dh and myself if either of us has to go to the hospital if we get sick.  If we can’t breathe, the last thing we’re going to do is stop and gather up a bunch of stuff for the hospital.  

Normally, this wouldn’t be a big deal because if you’re in the hospital for an emergency, you can always have someone go home and get you some things after the initial panic is over.  But for this sickness, once you are in the hospital, you can have no visitors.  No one can bring you a bag of necessary or comfort items, so you’d better have everything ready when you leave.  

I’ve packed each of us 2 bags, and I have a box at the door for “last minute” things like chargers that we use daily or bottles of medicine that we use daily.  We can grab our bags, grab the box and go.

This weekend, I realized I need to write something up for my ds17 and ds15 on what to do if both of us are in the hospital at the same time, especially if they get sick and are home without parents.  I’m actually not sure what they should do yet, so I have some thinking to do about what to tell them.  

Edited April 2, 2020 by Garga

[Garga]

So, I’ll ask here:  

Let’s pretend DH and I are both sick in the hospital.

My oldest will be 18 in a few months, so he’s not a complete child.  My other son is 15 and both boys get along very, very well, and are both quiet kids.

Do they just stay home alone?  I’m thinking yes.  Where else would they go?  If DH and I are both sick, then they are probably sick as well, even if they don’t have symptoms.  They should be quarantining.

And let’s say they are sick.  Let’s say they feel rotten, like with a bad flu.  Do they still stay home alone?  Who in the world would take them in, knowing that there would be a 90% chance that that family would get sick, too?

So, do I leave them instructions on how to know when they might have to go to the hospital if they take a turn for the worst?  My oldest doesn’t have a drivers’ license, so how does he get there?  Call 911?  They probably wouldn’t need to, being as young people usually don’t get hit that hard, but let’s pretend, because I like to be prepared.

Have you guys thought of this?  What plans do you have in place?

Edited April 2, 2020 by Garga

[Jean in Newcastle]

19 minutes ago, Garga said:

So, I’ll ask here:  

Let’s pretend DH and I are both sick in the hospital.

My oldest will be 18 in a few months, so he’s not a complete child.  My other son is 15 and both boys get along very, very well, and are both quiet kids.

Do they just stay home alone?  I’m thinking yes.  Where else would they go?  If DH and I are both sick, then they are probably sick as well, even if they don’t have symptoms.  They should be quarantining.

And let’s say they are sick.  Let’s say they feel rotten, like with a bad flu.  Do they still stay home alone?  Who in the world would take them in, knowing that there would be a 90% chance that that family would get sick, too?

So, do I leave them instructions on how to know when they might have to go to the hospital if they take a turn for the worst?  My oldest doesn’t have a drivers’ license, so how does he get there?  Call 911?  They probably wouldn’t need to, being as young people usually don’t get hit that hard, but let’s pretend, because I like to be prepared.

Have you guys thought of this?  What plans do you have in place?

Yes, I would have them stay home alone.  They are safest there and are old enough to be home. 

Yes, they should call 911 if it gets that bad. 

[Tree Frog]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

Millions of n95 masks already in the US continue to be sold to the highest foreign bidders while frontline healthcare workers here go without.

I'm not sure why I was quoted in regards to the frenzy of mask sellers. I had to go back to see what I posted, which was about probably knowing people who have the virus, but wouldn't know for to such limited testing.

 

[Pen]

9 hours ago, square_25 said:

I see no evidence of that. Again, it's known to be riskier than the flu, and you would expect some kids to (sadly) die from it. I'm not seeing data suggesting apocalyptic scenarios. 

If I see such data, I'll change my mind. In the meantime, that seems too alarmist. 

 

I got a “like” from 3 pages ago, which led me to see the above post that I hadn’t seen before.  Is this old before you changed mind, or current state of mind?

 

btw, my use of “tip of ice berg” is not a euphemism meaning “apocalyptic.”  

 I merely mean a couple noticed cases showing, other cases probably there too but not emerged into visibility.  Rather like where we are a first case being someone who had not traveled or had contact with any know case being a tip of ice berg indicating community spread. 

I don’t think CV19 need be “apocalyptic” which to me means world ending or at least human civilization ending.  

[vonfirmath]

17 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The baggage handler thing at the airport here blew up more.  Apparently now 13 infected, the first case was almost a month ago and they are advising anyone who’s been in the airport or even the car park in the last 14 days to monitor and go for testing if they develop symptoms.  No one can go through security anymore unless they have a boarding pass so no waving goodbye or hello.  (Although that’s probably a commonsense precaution right now anyway even if there was no baggage handler debacle)

 

America has not been allowed to go through security without a boarding pass since 2001. (other than very rare cases of a parent with a child travelling alone.)

[BeachGal]

58 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Regarding home remedies, I'm becoming a lot more skeptical of the claims taht garlic is antiviral, given how hard Italy got hit. I mean, I'm not going to outgarlic Italy, so if it didn't work for them, it can't be that great. 

 

The Sicilians and other southern regions eat some garlic but not so much the northern regions. You’d have to check how the south is doing.

Northern regions like Lombardy eat risotto, polenta, cheese, butter, beef, pork. More like Austria and Switzerland.

[Eos]

I too have been reading and occasionally liking bits of this post for months.  The resonance for me here is that this is a group of (mostly) women who research, collaborate, and plan to the degree that I do and I don't have people like you in real life.  I'm grateful. I was visiting my sister in February then came home to start stocking up - my dh finally noticed after a couple of weeks!

 @Garga I just agreed to be the guardian for two of my honorary kids in case their (widower) dad passes away.  It opened up those questions for me too, since my dd15 has three majority-aged siblings to assume her care but my dh and I would be it for these girls.

 

[Pen]

33 minutes ago, Garga said:

So, I’ll ask here:  

Let’s pretend DH and I are both sick in the hospital.

My oldest will be 18 in a few months, so he’s not a complete child.  My other son is 15 and both boys get along very, very well, and are both quiet kids.

Do they just stay home alone?  I’m thinking yes.  Where else would they go?  If DH and I are both sick, then they are probably sick as well, even if they don’t have symptoms.  They should be quarantining.

And let’s say they are sick.  Let’s say they feel rotten, like with a bad flu.  Do they still stay home alone?  Who in the world would take them in, knowing that there would be a 90% chance that that family would get sick, too?

So, do I leave them instructions on how to know when they might have to go to the hospital if they take a turn for the worst?  My oldest doesn’t have a drivers’ license, so how does he get there?  Call 911?  They probably wouldn’t need to, being as young people usually don’t get hit that hard, but let’s pretend, because I like to be prepared.

Have you guys thought of this?  What plans do you have in place?

 

Yes they should stay home.

A friend or relative could be a phone check in point of contact for some added guidance and as a back up for if both kids were suddenly both too sick to call. 

I suggest that you also Call the Health Authority for your area and see if they have some ideas.  

Where I am, if not clearly needing 911, the County Health Authority can be called during daytime  hours 7 days a week to trouble shoot a CV19 related situation. 

 

If sick enough to need hospital, the person is probably too sick to drive regardless of licensing.  So yes, in that case, 911.

But also see if telemedicine is arriving in your area. 

[Frances]

21 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

I'm not sure why I was quoted in regards to the frenzy of mask sellers. I had to go back to see what I posted, which was about probably knowing people who have the virus, but wouldn't know for to such limited testing.

 

Accident. Sorry.

[bolt.]

I think Florida really needs to think about how they will deal with offshore cruise ships if things get really bad. Like, what do you do with a ship that will (eventually) contain no one well: only dead and dying people? What do you do with a hulk in your harbour? At some point will you remove the survivors? Or will you remove the corpses instead? Neither?

And what makes them think people will passively stay on the ships? I don't think they are accounting for people's survival instincts. Won't they commandeer the lifeboats and try to come ashore? Won't people swim for it? Who just keeps floating there, isolating compliantly in their cabins, while a virus drops their ship-mates like flies and no one brings them meals any more? At some point, won't the crew begin to consider if they might save some lives by sinking the ship and seeking rescue?

You really can't just leave people with no solution. That's the stuff of nightmares.

They need to let the Americans off in Florida, and let other nationalities trickle out depending on when repatriation flights can be made available. They can even sail up the coast to take the Canadians to Canada. I can't see the humanity in just saying, "Nope not here. Our hospitals are only for certain folks. Better luck next time." -- to a ship load of desperate people in danger of their very lives.

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I think Florida really needs to think about how they will deal with offshore cruise ships if things get really bad. Like, what do you do with a ship that will (eventually) contain no one well: only dead and dying people? What do you do with a hulk in your harbour? At some point will you remove the survivors? Or will you remove the corpses instead? Neither?

And what makes them think people will passively stay on the ships? I don't think they are accounting for people's survival instincts. Won't they commandeer the lifeboats and try to come ashore? Won't people swim for it? Who just keeps floating there, isolating compliantly in their cabins, while a virus drops their ship-mates like flies and no one brings them meals any more? At some point, won't the crew begin to consider if they might save some lives by sinking the ship and seeking rescue?

You really can't just leave people with no solution. That's the stuff of nightmares.

They need to let the Americans off in Florida, and let other nationalities trickle out depending on when repatriation flights can be made available. They can even sail up the coast to take the Canadians to Canada. I can't see the humanity in just saying, "Nope not here. Our hospitals are only for certain folks. Better luck next time." -- to a ship load of desperate people in danger of their very lives.

 

The ship itself traveling to let off people at their home countries where possible is an interesting idea.  

 

March 8th:

"Cruise ships right now are really high risk,” B.C. Health Officer Bonnie Henry said on the weekend. “There is no way to guarantee your safety at this point.” Federal public health officer Theresa Tam issued a similar warning Friday.

USA had issued similar statements after the Diamond Princess debacle. 

[Tree Frog]

39 minutes ago, Garga said:

So, I’ll ask here:  

Let’s pretend DH and I are both sick in the hospital.

My oldest will be 18 in a few months, so he’s not a complete child.  My other son is 15 and both boys get along very, very well, and are both quiet kids.

Do they just stay home alone?  I’m thinking yes.  Where else would they go?  If DH and I are both sick, then they are probably sick as well, even if they don’t have symptoms.  They should be quarantining.

And let’s say they are sick.  Let’s say they feel rotten, like with a bad flu.  Do they still stay home alone?  Who in the world would take them in, knowing that there would be a 90% chance that that family would get sick, too?

So, do I leave them instructions on how to know when they might have to go to the hospital if they take a turn for the worst?  My oldest doesn’t have a drivers’ license, so how does he get there?  Call 911?  They probably wouldn’t need to, being as young people usually don’t get hit that hard, but let’s pretend, because I like to be prepared.

Have you guys thought of this?  What plans do you have in place?

The day my younger dd came home, we all sat down and discussed final wishes and filled out our medical power of attorney forms. We had them notarized the next day. I will be consolidating all the info into one email that I will send to all 4 of us. If oldest dd gives me her info, I will include it, too.

I haven't yet discussed with the rest of the family how we would handle the quarantine if one of us contracts it. I feel like that situation would be easier to deal with if we've discussed it ahead of time, but I don't think dh will be onboard with what I would like to do.

I like the way you have prepared to go to the hospital. I think dh and I will do the same, though dh is likely to refuse to go. Your ideas are helpful as a springboard to other things. My kids are a little older than yours, 18 and 20. I believe they could figure out how to handle things, but it might be easier if dh and I explained our budget and where to find the passwords so they would have access to our money. That's something I need to discuss with dh first, though.

The next paragraph I ask about end of life with covid. If this is a sensitive subject, please ignore it.

One thing I've thought about is what happens when a patient is in the hospital and needs a ventilator. How many people who are ventilated will return to regular life should they survive? If the survival rate and quality of life afterwards is low, I would rather not be ventilated. However, I really don't want to be aware I'm suffocating either. Would the doctors and nurses essentially put me on hospice or will they be too busy with other patients to give me morphine or other pain meds I would need? No one in the hospital will have an advocate, so I'd like to learn as much as I can ahead of time.

Garga, thanks for letting me jump off your post.

[Tree Frog]

14 minutes ago, Frances said:

Accident. Sorry.

Np. I felt really silly after I posted that and was preparing to delete my post. There are so many other things going on right now that I shouldn't have said anything.

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

The day my younger dd came home, we all sat down and discussed final wishes and filled out our medical power of attorney forms. We had them notarized the next day. I will be consolidating all the info into one email that I will send to all 4 of us. If oldest dd gives me her info, I will include it, too.

I haven't yet discussed with the rest of the family how we would handle the quarantine if one of us contracts it. I feel like that situation would be easier to deal with if we've discussed it ahead of time, but I don't think dh will be onboard with what I would like to do.

I like the way you have prepared to go to the hospital. I think dh and I will do the same, though dh is likely to refuse to go. Your ideas are helpful as a springboard to other things. My kids are a little older than yours, 18 and 20. I believe they could figure out how to handle things, but it might be easier if dh and I explained our budget and where to find the passwords so they would have access to our money. That's something I need to discuss with dh first, though.

The next paragraph I ask about end of life with covid. If this is a sensitive subject, please ignore it.

One thing I've thought about is what happens when a patient is in the hospital and needs a ventilator. How many people who are ventilated will return to regular life should they survive? If the survival rate and quality of life afterwards is low, I would rather not be ventilated. However, I really don't want to be aware I'm suffocating either. Would the doctors and nurses essentially put me on hospice or will they be too busy with other patients to give me morphine or other pain meds I would need? No one in the hospital will have an advocate, so I'd like to learn as much as I can ahead of time.

Garga, thanks for letting me jump off your post.

 

I have been putting bills on autopay, thinking about prepaying some bills if I cannot put it on autopay and it would be a problem, and opened a joint account so that young adult son could have some money to work with were I hospitalized. 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Lockdown in my state is going to be 90 days. 

So, at home and ony going outside for one of a few reasons, under pain of an $11000 fine or 6 months jail, until the end of June or thereabouts.

Also, a full fifth of our state cases come from cruises! 

 

 

Schools still to be open?

[Tree Frog]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I have been putting bills on autopay, thinking about prepaying some bills if I cannot put it on autopay and it would be a problem, and opened a joint account so that young adult son could have some money to work with were I hospitalized. 

Thank you. I'd been thinking strictly of how they would survive, like ordering groceries for delivery, so this would be something to put into a document for them. As many bills as we can are on autopay, but it would be good to write down for them what they will need to pay and how to do it.

 

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I have heard estimates of survival rates that are not great, but also well above zero.  I don't remember specific percentages.  I imagine that it's way too early to know what kind of long term impact this is having on those people who are ventilated and survive.  3 months, which is about the longest time people have been recovered, is still a very short period of time in terms of recovering from something as major as an extended ICU stay with ARDS.  

I'll also say that there is some research that shows that people who don't have disabilities, including health related ones, aren't very good at estimating what their quality of life would be like if they were to acquire a disability, and that people who acquire disabilities, including people with high spinal cord injuries who become ventilator dependent, if they are well supported and given access to life lived in a community, and autonomy,  often self report quality of life that is higher than people might expect.   On the other hand, people with disabilities who are not well supported, and aren't given autonomy and access to life lived in a community, often have very low quality fo life.  So, there are lots of things that make it hard to predict what quality of life would be like. 

However, I would hope and imagine that if you were in the hospital and the choices were to ventilate you or let you die, they'd give you access to medications like morphine that would alleviate the drowning feeling. However, it seems unlikely to me that at the point that such a decision needs to be made, you'd be in a position to understand it, make it, or communicate it, and most hospitals aren't allowing adults to have visitors so you might not have a loved one there to make it for you.  So, if you wouldn't want invasive ventilation, then having a living will that specifies Do Not Intubate would probably be in order.  

I’ll have to search again but I thought I’d seen 50/50.  Obviously differs with age etc

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, Garga said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bingo! To all of these!  And the others I didn’t quote, because I’d already quoted so many.

I started reading this thread when it started back in January and I know EVERYTHING about this stinkin’ virus now.  My poor Dh.  For the past 2.5 weeks, he’s been learning new things and every time he tells me something”’new” I’m like, “Oh yeah, I already know that!”  I didn’t realize I was doing it until after about a week in and thought I must have sounded like such a jerk.  No matter what he told me, I already knew it.  When I realized I was sounding like a know-it-all (even though I DO know it all!), I would just reply, “Oh yeah...” when he told me something “new”.

We talked over two months ago on this thread about the numbers in China and how they were wrong and why people thought so.  And now there are articles saying, “Gee...we think China might have been lying about the numbers! Gosh, if only we’d have known, we might have reacted better!”  Rolling my eyes really hard. Anyone in a position of authority had to have known. Pretending they didn’t is disingenuous and it irritates me, mostly because people will believe that no one knew. Hogwash!  If a bunch of moms on the internet knew, then the people in authority knew.

I wish I had told a few more friends to prepare, though.  I told one friend back in mid-February that I’d stocked up on about 2 or 3 weeks’ worth of food, TP, tissues, soap, hand lotion, vitamin D, etc, and she burst out laughing at me for being so “silly.”  And then I didn’t bother to tell anyone else, but I kinda wish I had told some of my more thoughtful friends so they could have been ready.  Honestly, back then, I was preparing in case they shut down my little town and the odds of that happening were small (so I thought), but I still figured it didn’t hurt to prepare.  I did NOT see it coming that entire states would shut down—cities, yes, entire states? No. So, I guess I didn’t know everything.

I have a nurse practitioner friend who is working in the tents around our local hospital taking care of non-Covid patients. I was talking to her about everything and it turns out I know more than she does.  It’s a little awkward.  I tell her things, but I can tell she doesn’t believe me, because I’m just a mom getting my information from a bunch of homeschoolers and she’s a medical practitioner.  Whatever. I’ve told her.  She’ll know that she heard it from me first when my information is confirmed to her. 

At minimum, I read this thread every morning over breakfast to get the overnight updates, read a bit at lunch, and then catch up on it before I go to bed to see what happened that day.  It’s been my ritual for over 2 months. Some days I wonder if I should let it all rest for a day and think about other things, but I can’t seem to let it rest.  I’m not anxious or scared, but I also feel like I can’t look away.  A boardie on this thread or maybe another thread said that reading about Covid is like being a cat watching a laser pointer—just can’t look away!

 

So, a big thank you to everyone who posts so we can all be informed.  

 

YES.   I totally relate.  Dh and I were clued into this virus before this thread started because we had a trip to Asia planned.  So we were watching and getting worried.   This thread has helped me stay up to date more than reading the papers ever could.   I talked about what I learned on there, when I started stocking up in early Feb, and that I thought this was a big deal and all my friends laughed at it.  One who is a medical professional who told me I was silly for not going on our trip to Asia. And we had many arguments about this just being like the flu.  Even the night that our Governor closed down the schools, I was telling other parents who had kids going to PS that I thought their kids would be coming home told me that would never happen.  I do admit as much as I was following the stocking up advice, I never thought it was going be like it was in China.  It still seemed like somehow that would not happen here. 

[Ausmumof3]

18 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

I don't think that you'd end up with only dead and dying people.  80% of people are surviving this virus without significant medical intervention, and so you'd have some time.  

But no, letting the ship sit off our shore until 20% of the people are dead, isn't the ethical solution.  And if we're going to do some kind of rescue, then doing it now, before the numbers increase seems like a better idea. 

Yes.  The longer we sit here talking back and forward about whose problem it is the worse the problem gets!  

[mommyoffive]

Looks like they are thinking the Democratic Convention is not going to happen this summer. 

As Wisconsin recorded its largest single-day jump in confirmed coronavirus cases, national and local leaders expressed deep doubts about staging a political convention expected to bring 50,000 people to Milwaukee this summer. 

Nearly 200 more positive test results for COVID-19 were reported Wednesday, pushing the total to about 1,550. At least 32 people have died from the virus as of 7 p.m. and about 26% of the total cases have led to hospitalization, health officials said.

Those numbers are expected to keep climbing for weeks, with one statistical model estimating a peak near the end of April.

Given those circumstances, it seems unlikely the 2020 Democratic National Convention will go forward as originally planned.  

Democratic frontrunner and former Vice President Joe Biden suggested the convention may have to be held at a later date or conducted in a different manner because of the pandemic.

"It's hard to envision," Biden said of having delegates converge on Milwaukee as planned July 13-16.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/health/2020/04/01/coronavirus-wisconsin-cases-spike-2020-dnc-doubt/5107251002/

[Ausmumof3]

Anyone seen reliable info about Ecuador?  That situation looks bad

[Pen]

I would like to see the cases with conclusions starting to head toward a 3% or so death rate. Instead trend has been going toward climbing death rate.  Does anyone else find this disturbing?

current bottom? 20% deaths, 

yesterday : 19% deaths 

and a few days ago it was 17% deaths 

 

[TCB]

I think the survival rate is going to go up quite a lot quite quickly once we get our feet under us. I don’t think what is going on these first few weeks is indicative of what the survival rate for ventilated patients will be soon. I think that was what happened in Wuhan too. That’s why not overwhelming the health system is so important.

[Katy]

I wouldn't worry about whether you will live through a ventilator (most do, even if it takes 2-3 weeks) and whether you will be disabled afterwards or not (I don't think there's any evidence you will have anything more lasting that reduced lung capacity, probably temporarily).  Dying because you can't breathe is incredibly uncomfortable. It brings many people who chose to go on hospice for something like COPD or lung cancer into panic attacks.  And whether people will need to be triaged into getting one or not when needed is impossible to predict. If that is the situation you may not be getting the level of nursing attention you normally would, so no one can promise you'd be properly medicated until you were no longer panicking.

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200330-coronavirus-are-children-immune-to-covid-19
 

Easy to read overview on what we know about the impact on kids in relation to our discussion yet.  It seems to be slightly worse for infants (1/10 severe) and preschoolers, mild in school age children then in teens it becomes more serious as the immune system becomes more adult.  It possibly relates to ACE2 receptors and cytokine storm, more resilience to coronaviruses due to more recent viral infections or maybe other factors.  

[Arcadia]

@square_25the officials involved are still waiting on Holland America. I think they don’t want to be played out. They want a legal binding plan.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-ships-infected-port-everglades-20200401-mf4komanench5m7lwp34oeajly-story.html
“A memo outlined by the cruise line had called for sending guests home on commercial flights and charter flights, and Floridians driven to their houses. But the county is still waiting for an official plan that would be binding, including details about who would pay for what, an outline of the medical plan, and talks about security.

Zaandam and Rotterdam combined have 1,250 guests on board, including 311 Americans from 19 states; 52 of those are from Florida. Nine are from South Florida.”

[Ausmumof3]

Us deaths passed 5000 
 

[Tree Frog]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

I wouldn't worry about whether you will live through a ventilator (most do, even if it takes 2-3 weeks) and whether you will be disabled afterwards or not (I don't think there's any evidence you will have anything more lasting that reduced lung capacity, probably temporarily).  Dying because you can't breathe is incredibly uncomfortable. It brings many people who chose to go on hospice for something like COPD or lung cancer into panic attacks.  And whether people will need to be triaged into getting one or not when needed is impossible to predict. If that is the situation you may not be getting the level of nursing attention you normally would, so no one can promise you'd be properly medicated until you were no longer panicking.

This is part of what I was wondering. But would the patient be aware enough to know, as curious mom mentioned?

[Lucy the Valiant]

12 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

But the vast majority of cases in the US are relatively recently diagnosed.  Recently enough that the only options are 1) Still sick (or at least not confirmed as recovered) or 2) Dead.   That number should change as we get further out from diagnosis for a lot of people.  

 

Also if / when widely-available antibody tests become available, we should have more reliable information on the many people who are self-diagnosing & staying home & recovering. (I know scientists are working frantically on it, and my thanks goes to them.)