Young adult children and launching

[sheryl]

As I created this poll, I realized there may be more choices but I stopped at 8.

I'm curious how old your kid was when s/he graduated college and how long they lived at home AFTER college/misc school and BEFORE launching.  How old were they when they FULLY launched as independent?

Any other information would be helpful.  Did you help financially?  If so, for what and for how long?

Thanks.  Our daughter is not ready yet.  She's not even out of college so there's several years left yet but just curious.   Thanks!

PS - I understand you might have a special needs child that you do launch and others might not be in that position.  

Edited December 19, 2019 by sheryl

[sassenach]

I have one that went to college, flunked out, came home for a year, went back to college, dropped out again, lived with my mom and worked for another year and a half, then moved out into a roommate situation, is now engaged and living in a different roommate situation. I didn't consider her actually launched until she moved out of my mom's six months ago (at 22), and frankly she's had to borrow money more than a few times since then, so it's hard to really consider her launched even now. 

As you can imagine, this has not been the most enjoyable stage of parenting.

 

[sheryl]

Yes, I get that!  Did you answer the poll?  Did it show up?

[Kassia]

My three older kids were all fortunate to have jobs lined up after college graduation so they were financially independent about a month or two after that happened once their new jobs started.  My youngest is a high school senior and I am hoping for the same!

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Kassia

[klmama]

OP -  My "other" vote is mis-aligned with special needs now.  I think sassenech's vote was moved, too.  Did you add special needs after we voted?

Oldest chose not to finish college, but took a full-time job at 20 and lived with friends, paying for most of the regular expenses.  We covered some unexpected car repairs.  At 22, dc  got a better-paying job with benefits and now covers all expenses.  

 

[Carrie12345]

My oldest started college officially at 16. He hasn’t finished at 21, but is working full time now. He’s “at home”, but his father’s home.  He is on the spectrum, but would/will be very capable of living on his own with a higher income. Whether or not he’ll choose to remains to be seen.

 

[sheryl]

40 minutes ago, klmama said:

OP -  My "other" vote is mis-aligned with special needs now.  I think sassenech's vote was moved, too.  Did you add special needs after we voted?

Oldest chose not to finish college, but took a full-time job at 20 and lived with friends, paying for most of the regular expenses.  We covered some unexpected car repairs.  At 22, dc  got a better-paying job with benefits and now covers all expenses.  

 

Yes, I thought of making it a choice and forgot to add it originally so I went back in to add it afterwards.  Sorry about that.  My dd is s.n. so I do want for folks to be able to have that option to answer.  

[Sunshine State Sue]

Ds turned 24 this week.  He graduated in May this year after 5 years with bachelor and master degrees. 

• We helped him move into his own apartment the day after graduation.  He hasn't lived with us since he moved away (out of state) to college.
• He started his post-graduation full-time job a few weeks after graduation.
• We gifted him dad's old 2006 vehicle he'd been driving. 
• We paid for his first 6 months of "solo" car insurance. 
• I took him off my work insurance when he got his own insurance through work.
• We  haven't discussed cell phone yet but we will over Christmas.

 So, 7 months after graduation, he is completely self-supporting (except cell phone) and has repaid us $2000/$6000 loaned for graduate school.  Feels like a brag, but you asked. 😉

I use to tell him that my goal was that he be happy, responsible, and self-supporting.  It helps that he went STEM.

[sheryl]

Thanks, Sue!  But, your ds came home on breaks and summers, no?  

You should brag.  It sounds like he's doing well.  Did he move far away - hours?  

[City Mouse]

My DD 24 has some special needs and is just starting the process of moving out on her own. She has been working off and on since she quit college. She pays for her own personal expenses - food, clothing, personal items, entertainment, gas, cell phone. Things are looking pretty god right now, and she is on the waiting list for an apartment. (Both jobs and housing is hard to come by where we live).

[JustEm]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

better-payin

 Edited because I have no idea how this posted. I didn't quote anything unless my phone was in my pocket and it happened accidentally

Edited December 19, 2019 by hjffkj

[Sunshine State Sue]

20 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Thanks, Sue!  But, your ds came home on breaks and summers, no?  

You should brag.  It sounds like he's doing well.  Did he move far away - hours?  

Ds came home for a week during the summer and a week at Christmas.  That's it.  He was very involved in basketball.  We never expected anything different.  We are in FL.  He is in CO.  2000 miles.  4hr flight.  The school was a terrific fit academically, athletically, and financially.

ETA:  We spent some time visiting during summers and basketball season.  It was very strange in May, leaving CO and not knowing when I'd see him again.  We are going for Christmas, but I didn't know it then. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Sue in St Pete

[mom2scouts]

I said other because my adult children all become self supporting when they left home for college. We didn't pay any of their college or living expenses after high school. They worked, took loans, got grants, joined the military and did whatever they needed to do to become self supporting adults. It seemed your option of earned college and launched immediately meant launched immediately *after* college, so I chose "other".

[gardenmom5]

I didn't vote, as my experiences have been varied. I have two that are entirely self-supporting.  another who lives with a sibling - so that sibling provides room and board.  We  live in a very HCOL area, which is a game changer.   I've had zero problem with college graduate kids moving home while they save for a down payment on a house.  

 

1dd, graduated, moved home (we provided room and board) - got a job.  paid the rest of her bills, saved money - moved out when she bought a house.  She has since been diagnosed with ASD. (actually 2E)

2dd, graduated, moved home and took a year off (worked odd jobs) - went to grad school. (worked part time in relevant job.)  moved in with a friend who was doing an extensive house sitting (really rough gig. /  it included weekly maid and yard service.). She couldn't afford an apartment with other girls without taking out more student loans.  she paid most of her bills, we provided a "kid car".  She got married a couple months before she graduated.  DSIL (bless him), slaughtered his savings and paid off most of her student loans for her doc. (her first year salary was more than her loans.) they bought a house a year later, their only debt is their mortgage.

We helped both dss' to buy their first car.  they paid the loans, and we got everything in their names. they both bounced around with their education before settling down.

1ds (student) -  is working on a MS. He's currently living with 1dd.  Otherwise, pays his own bills.  He lived with her before, and lived with us again for the last two years.  

2ds (quasi student) - working - is supposed to be working on his CPA (probably start after tax season is over).  we provide room and board, he pays the rest of his bills. He looked at some average condos while doing real estate work for a client.  got an eye opener about real estate prices around here.  

[Farrar]

I haven’t launched any yet, but nearly all the young adults I know, including professionals, even some that are married, get occasional gifts of money or things like hand me down cars or are still on their parents’ insurance. Because that’s our world. These questions, which I see here all the time, imply an economy and a society that I simply don’t see often, at least in the circles I run in. The process of young people not getting any support is very slow.

[cjzimmer1]

Oldest DS is 21, not launched yet but financially could be if he wanted.  Right now we provide lodging, food (when he's home) and medical (although, he hasn't used anything in 2-3 years).  But DS lives at home so he can pay for college without loans and afford to go on a missions trip every summer.  If he moved out, he wouldn't be able to afford the missions trips and since every year, I see the personal growth he gets from it, we encourage him to live at home so he can still afford to do them and pay for college.  I have no doubt he will move out when he lands his first post college job since I expect he will have to leave town.  It will be at least a few more years though since he's bogged down in bureaucratic red tape at the university and is having trouble being allowed to take the only classes he needs to graduate.  

[Farrar]

40 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think cash gifts and “support” are 2 different things.  

The OP specifically mentions insurance, phone, etc. Honestly, I know a ton of young adults who are still on parents' insurance, still on their phone plan, still even on their car insurance. And when a cash gift is really about helping a young adult make rent, then is it a gift or is it support?

Honestly, the people I know who talk about this whole concept of independence the most are the most teetering on poverty too. The people I know who are more solidly middle and upper class never question that they'll continue to give various forms of support to their adult children as long as they might need it. When that support is for a child who isn't progressing, isn't getting an education or moving forward in a job, maybe it gets cut off, but generally that's not the case. Most of the support they give is so routinized that they don't even think of it as support. Oh, of course Susie is still on our insurance until she's 27. It just makes more sense while she's working as a subcontractor. Oh, of course we'll give Timmy a few thousand dollars at Christmas because we don't want him to have to worry - have to worry meaning, have to worry about rent and groceries. But it's still a "gift."

Edited December 19, 2019 by Farrar

[Kareni]

I chose the first option "Earned college degree/certification, came home to live for some time before launching" though my daughter lived with us only about six weeks after graduating from college.

My daughter majored in Latin (minored in Geology) and so did the obvious next thing; she began teaching English in South Korea! She spent one year teaching kindergarteners and early elementary aged students. More recently she has been teaching conversational English to adults. She has been living and working in Korea for over six years now.

Her first position included a studio apartment and her wage was equivalent to about about $2200/month. By living frugally, she was able to save some $10,000 that year. So, yes, she is self supporting.

Regards,

Kareni

[Melissa in Australia]

Other. My children have to move for university. They are paying their own way right then. 

Oldest left for uni at 17

Next 2 left home for work at 18, fully independant

Dd was 18 when she left for university. 

I only have 3 children left at home

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

The OP specifically mentions insurance, phone, etc. Honestly, I know a ton of young adults who are still on parents' insurance, still on their phone plan, still even on their car insurance. And when a cash gift is really about helping a young adult make rent, then is it a gift or is it support?

Honestly, the people I know who talk about this whole concept of independence the most are the most teetering on poverty too. The people I know who are more solidly middle and upper class never question that they'll continue to give various forms of support to their adult children as long as they might need it. When that support is for a child who isn't progressing, isn't getting an education or moving forward in a job, maybe it gets cut off, but generally that's not the case. Most of the support they give is so routinized that they don't even think of it as support. Oh, of course Susie is still on our insurance until she's 27. It just makes more sense while she's working as a subcontractor. Oh, of course we'll give Timmy a few thousand dollars at Christmas because we don't want him to have to worry - have to worry meaning, have to worry about rent and groceries. But it's still a "gift."

I agree with you and I also think it’s always been that way. The wealthy have an ingrained understanding that it takes money to make money - and thus they think nothing of the fact that it takes giving money to their young adult children to help those children prosper later.

It’s absolutely a class distinction.

Personally I think the concept of adult independence is bs.  I don’t know anyone of any age who is getting through this world all on their own. 

That said, most of mine are very nearly financially solo after they graduate high school.  Simply bc I don’t have money to give them. LOL.
 

25 yr old - 100% independent for 2 years.  Not in our insurance or phone plan or anything and has an apt with roommates. Trade school and went through several jobs before landing in a good place that pays mediocre. 

23/24 yr old - our insurance and cell phone plan, taking a break from college and lives on his own, so in a couple month he will be in his own for car insurance.

22 yr old - lives at home, did some college, did some bootcamp, did several jobs, is working and is at home paying a low rent that includes the cost of his car insurance.  On our insurance. His own cell phone plan.

20 yr old - ft college & pt jobs, lives at home, our medical and car insurance, our cell phone plan.  Otherwise no money given but no rent charged either.

18 yr old - living at college, pt work, no car, our medical insurance and phone plan.  We send no money.  She has to very strictly manage her own financial aid, scholarships and wages to stretch over the year.

We do help as much as we can in non financial ways. 

 

[Jenny in Florida]

I had to "other," since:

1. I have two offspring in this age range, each of whom has taken/is taking a different path.
2. None of the answer choices seemed to really describe either one.

For my daughter, 25 this month, choice #1 would be closest. She earned her B.A. early (16), then came home for about 2.5 years. She spent the last 1.5 years of that working the equivalent of full time and saving most of her paychecks. At 19, she took her nest egg and moved from Florida to NY. She was primarily self-supporting from then on, although she doesn't quite meet your definition because she is still on our medical insurance and cell phone plan. She lives in Brooklyn so doesn't have a car or pay auto insurance, but has always covered her own transportation costs. In the six years since she moved out, she has paid her own way through a professional acting training program and is now doing her master's part-time while working full-time. She recently left the apartment she had been sharing with multiple roommates to move in with her partner. We keep her on our medical insurance because we already pay for a family plan to cover our son and it literally doesn't cost us extra for her; we do cover some of her co-pays, because we never want her to go without care just for financial reasons, although she has been gradually taking on more of those. We keep her on the cell phone plan as a matter of convenience and so her father/my husband never has to stress that she will be without a working phone. Once or twice in the last six years she has been broke enough to let me buy her some groceries. We definitely consider her "launched."

My 21-year-old son doesn't fit into any of the categories, though. He started college full-time at 16, after a year of dual enrollment, lived on campus for two years, then decided to change course and came home "temporarily." In the next couple of years, he worked, took classes at the community college here, eventually earned an associate's degree and a technical certificate, did one semester at the state university, took time off school entirely to work full-time for a while, moved in with his girlfriend, then back home, then moved his girlfriend in here, too . . .

It's been a journey.

Lately, he has been talking about finishing his B.A., but he's also very busy working and trying to get his own theatre/performance troupe up and running while continuing to learn new performance skills via both informal and formal study. He and his girlfriend are also making more serious noises about starting to save some money with an eye towards moving out in the next year or so. We'll see how things develop on that front.

We loaned him money to buy his current clunker of a car, which he is paying back over the next year. We buy basic groceries for everyone, and he, like his older sister, is on our medical insurance and cell phone plan. He pays us a token amount of rent -- enough to feel meaningful considering his income, but not even market value for a room in this area -- and covers his share of the car insurance and all of his "personal" expenses (gas, Uber/Lyft when the car isn't running, clothes, food and snacks away from home, costumes and supplies for shows, etc. ).

Edited December 19, 2019 by Jenny in Florida

[Chris in VA]

I answered #1 for my eldest, although he is an Aspie, so that comes into play. 

He went to college and graduated, but came home and started working. He had worked before in summers and also graduated from high school a semester early and worked before going to college. Anyway, he paid rent at our house. He had several jobs after college but remained with us until 28, when he left VA to move to AZ, fir a "fresh start." We didn't know the real reasons he left until he came home in February 6 months later. He continued to live with us until we moved here in Oct of 2018. Now he rents from former parishoners and works, and has recently been accepted to an online grad program in film studies. He has been completely independent since we left, but he was on our insurance and paid our low rental fees as long as he could. 

Ds28 had to leave our home at 20 or 21. Honestly I forget exactly how old he was, but he chose to be homeless for a while. He moved for rehab to NC at 21 (I think?)and never lived at home after that. He has been the most independent.  He has been married for 5 years. 

Dd is a Sophomore in college. All our kids pay for their own car insurance and cell from the beginning (although we do gift the actual phone, which is really basic and not an iPhone). She got about 11K in scholarships this year, so we pay everything and use that for tuition. We gifted her our 2003 car when we left the country last year and she pays everything related to that and to her cat's care. We also pay for her to travel here. She lives rent free at my best friend's home when not at college. 

I expect her to maybe be living with her partner her Sr year; that will constitute a new household in our opinion and we will just pay tuition that year. I hope that doesn't happen, but it probably will. 

[J-rap]

That's a little complicated...

#1 was mostly fully independent by 21, although we continued to pay for college.

#2 went to undergraduate college overseas, ended up meeting her dh there, and continued to live there for a bit.  They were fully independent after they got married (22?)  They both had good jobs but pay there was so much less than here, that we paid for the whole immigration process when they decided to move to the U.S.  There's no way they could have afforded that on their own.  They lived with my parents then for about 4 months as they both got settled and found good jobs, a car, and an apartment.  (So that was at about age 26.)  

#3 was fully independent after college, and then went to work overseas.  We did pay for her plane tickets home to visit!  When she returned to the U.S. for 8 months, she lived with my parents while she worked here, and then headed back overseas for graduate school, where she is now and is probably 95% independent.  (We still pay for her air tickets home and for a cell phone plan when she's in the States.)  She's 27.

#4 didn't go to college, but lived with my parents and worked for about a year, and then left for another state where she lived and worked with my childhood friend for a year.     By age 20 or so, she was about 90% independent, although she remained on our family cell phone plan and health insurance.  After that, she moved back home for half a year, and then left for another state where she is now 99% independent.  (We help her with air tickets home!)

#5 took about 6 months to find a job and apartment after college, and then was mostly independent except cell phone and health insurance, which continue today.

(Also, the reason my kids lived with my parents after college/moving, etc., is because our home was in the middle of nowhere out on the prairie -- hours from a major city, and my parents lived in a large metro area.  🙂  And also because my parents are a lot of fun and loved having their grandchildren living with them.)

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by J-rap

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

The OP specifically mentions insurance, phone, etc. Honestly, I know a ton of young adults who are still on parents' insurance, still on their phone plan, still even on their car insurance. And when a cash gift is really about helping a young adult make rent, then is it a gift or is it support?

Honestly, the people I know who talk about this whole concept of independence the most are the most teetering on poverty too. The people I know who are more solidly middle and upper class never question that they'll continue to give various forms of support to their adult children as long as they might need it. When that support is for a child who isn't progressing, isn't getting an education or moving forward in a job, maybe it gets cut off, but generally that's not the case. Most of the support they give is so routinized that they don't even think of it as support. Oh, of course Susie is still on our insurance until she's 27. It just makes more sense while she's working as a subcontractor. Oh, of course we'll give Timmy a few thousand dollars at Christmas because we don't want him to have to worry - have to worry meaning, have to worry about rent and groceries. But it's still a "gift."

 

In our case, I worry about trying to budget “gifts” for several young (or not so young) adults at once, so I’d very much prefer that they live at home until they’re on fully solid ground, not worrying about being short on housing payments or groceries.  I don’t know if they’ll make that (very wise, imo) choice, but they do know it’s available.

If they want to make a go of it the second they think they can, we’ll cheer them on, but we can’t dole out a grand here and a grand there times up to five kids, lol. We can keep beds and a stocked fridge!

 

[Pawz4me]

I'm not going to vote, because I don't think the choices are nuanced enough. That's not a complaint; life is complicated and usually can't fit sound-byte length choices.

DS24 graduated from a four year university last year (2018). He'd had a full time job waiting for him since September of his senior year (2017). But the job didn't start until mid-August, so he was with us, with us continuing to support him, until he started work. We loaned him the money for deposits (first month's rent and security) on his apartment, but he has a very well paying job and paid us back quickly. He continues on our phone plan, but he pays his portion. Keeping him on our phone plan is simply financial common sense for all of us. We've continued to allow him the use of one of our vehicles, although we'll be wrapping that up in the spring. He'll likely buy the car from us, but he may choose to buy a different vehicle. That's up to him. If it were an older vehicle we'd give it to him, but it's a newer one that's still worth a lot.

DS21 just graduated from a four year university (he was an early college high school student who already had an associate's degree, so he finished his four year education early). He's on the spectrum. He doesn't yet have a job lined up but will start looking after the holidays (we figure he deserves a few weeks' vacation). He's welcome to continue to live with us for as long as he likes, even if it's forever. That has always applied to both boys, of course--our home will always be their home as far as we're concerned; there is no expiration date on home. He has enough in savings to live on for several months if he chose to get his own apartment right now. When he gets a job we'll expect him to cover his part of the phone plan, and depending on how well paying any job he gets is we may ask him to chip in to cover his food for as long as he continues to live with us. We're also currently paying for his health insurance, but will expect him to cover that when he gets a job.

[sheryl]

9 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

Not sure how to answer for some kids. Oldest was helped through undergrad and then started a master's after a year on her own. She watched her fiance die, finished that first master's, and then fell apart. She was home off and on for a year, now married and finishing the doctorate. 

Next was on her own when she left for the Naval Academy right after high school graduation. LT Cmdr select in the Navy. Married.

Next one was home for a bit during college for surgery. Graduated and moved home, but next door. She actually takes care more of us than the other way around! She's taking over the ranch. The ranch is paying her truck insurance as she uses her truck for the ranch. And I babysit her dog a lot. 😉

Next one basically launched when he left for college (same year and school as Sue in St. Pete!) He's totally on his own and has been for years, 2nd LT in the AF. 

Last one still in college. She was on her own until she lost her full-ride due to injury. We're paying her room and board. 

OK, I'm trying to understand.  The last one "was" on her own "all the way" financially but she lost her full ride so "now" you're paying room and board?  Wanting to make sure I understand.  I'm interested in knowing how many "young adults" here aged 18, 19, 20 and above are "fully" independent in every sense.  

[sheryl]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

I haven’t launched any yet, but nearly all the young adults I know, including professionals, even some that are married, get occasional gifts of money or things like hand me down cars or are still on their parents’ insurance. Because that’s our world. These questions, which I see here all the time, imply an economy and a society that I simply don’t see often, at least in the circles I run in. The process of young people not getting any support is very slow.

Right, but I'm not wanting to make any assumptions.  I didn't say up-post but I've heard many stories/news reports, etc that it is now "common" for the new college graduate to return home to live for x number of years to "save" money from their job to eventually launch in to their own apt, condo, house, etc.  Salaries have changed over the years/decades.  We, American professionals of many (maybe not all) types, and I mean "professionals" (not a manager at Wendy's and I'm NOT slighting that role at all but trying to make a point.  I am repeat customer at Wendys!) used to earn mega salaries years ago.  Now there is such strong competition and the workforce has changed (to a degree) that gone are many of the higher salaries and perks/benefits, etc.  

[DawnM]

I will let you know when it happens.  Two kids in college right now.  One has decided to take a break and we will see if he goes back.  The middle is in college but may take more than 4 years to finish.  

Get back to me in about 5 years.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Right, but I'm not wanting to make any assumptions.  I didn't say up-post but I've heard many stories/news reports, etc that it is now "common" for the new college graduate to return home to live for x number of years to "save" money from their job to eventually launch in to their own apt, condo, house, etc.  Salaries have changed over the years/decades.  We, American professionals of many (maybe not all) types, and I mean "professionals" (not a manager at Wendy's and I'm NOT slighting that role at all but trying to make a point.  I am repeat customer at Wendys!) used to earn mega salaries years ago.  Now there is such strong competition and the workforce has changed (to a degree) that gone are many of the higher salaries and perks/benefits, etc.  

I guess what I see is that this very question isn't one that many middle class families are even thinking about in my experience. Like, they wouldn't even frame it this way. It's a very negative framing to say that a 25 yo in a professional career with a college degree living on their own, doing their own cooking, dating, in a city a couple of hours away from where their parents live... isn't "independent" because it still makes financial sense to leave that kid on their insurance or because they still have them on their phone plan or something. I think it wouldn't even occur to those families to say that their adult child isn't independent or to see their support as something that is framed this way - in terms of "not fully independent."

I think it's also just fuzzy. In my late 30's, we had a series of financial disasters all at once - including more than 10k very unexpectedly to fix the main water line to the street. I did not ask anyone for money or help because there were ways to figure it out - holding some debt we didn't want for a while, dissolving some of our not that awesome savings and investments, etc. I did gripe to my mom about what a hit this was for us out of nowhere. My mother told my father (they're divorced and have been since I was a kid - but they were both chatting regularly about my brother's impending wedding around that time, I think). Suddenly a very random check in exactly the amount for the pipes showed up. It helped SO much to not have to dip into the meager savings we have or carry extra debt for awhile. Is that a gift? Is that support? Is that just family looking out for each other? I genuinely don't even know. And if it was support, does that mean that even though I'd been married for well over a decade, was a homeowner, and had kids, that I wasn't "really" independent?

 

[sheryl]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I guess what I see is that this very question isn't one that many middle class families are even thinking about in my experience. Like, they wouldn't even frame it this way. It's a very negative framing to say that a 25 yo in a professional career with a college degree living on their own, doing their own cooking, dating, in a city a couple of hours away from where their parents live... isn't "independent" because it still makes financial sense to leave that kid on their insurance or because they still have them on their phone plan or something. I think it wouldn't even occur to those families to say that their adult child isn't independent or to see their support as something that is framed this way - in terms of "not fully independent."

I think it's also just fuzzy. In my late 30's, we had a series of financial disasters all at once - including more than 10k very unexpectedly to fix the main water line to the street. I did not ask anyone for money or help because there were ways to figure it out - holding some debt we didn't want for a while, dissolving some of our not that awesome savings and investments, etc. I did gripe to my mom about what a hit this was for us out of nowhere. My mother told my father (they're divorced and have been since I was a kid - but they were both chatting regularly about my brother's impending wedding around that time, I think). Suddenly a very random check in exactly the amount for the pipes showed up. It helped SO much to not have to dip into the meager savings we have or carry extra debt for awhile. Is that a gift? Is that support? Is that just family looking out for each other? I genuinely don't even know. And if it was support, does that mean that even though I'd been married for well over a decade, was a homeowner, and had kids, that I wasn't "really" independent?

 

This reply is acknowledgement that I read your response.  Farrar, I'm just not going to "dance" with you on my word choice.  Really?  You're complaining about my word choice?  There are so many more options but I'd have to customize thousands to "fit" all of wtm readers.  This site wouldn't support that and who would do that?  Not me.  I made general classifications.  Like it or not, I don't care.  I'm NOT referring to dependence as one experiencing a crisis and needing a monetary "gift" or "loan".  I'm interested in knowing how many y.a. are fully independent - at the end of the day they do NOT need financial support from their parent/s.  

[Joker]

I'm one who doesn't tie being independent to be fully paying for their own things. Dh and I talk often about how we plan to financially help out dc in ways our parents weren't able. We don't want it to be as hard for them as it was for us and we have the means to help. 

Oldest is in an off campus apartment at college and paying for all of his rent and utilities with what is left of his scholarship after tuition. He could pay for all of his own groceries with money he's saved but I want him to use that for fun money (which he rarely does) so I give him a gift card every month for groceries. 

I would think a few years after college they will be able to fully support themselves but we will still give gifts for things here and there. 

[sheryl]

3 minutes ago, Joker said:

I'm one who doesn't tie being independent to be fully paying for their own things. Dh and I talk often about how we plan to financially help out dc in ways our parents weren't able. We don't want it to be as hard for them as it was for us and we have the means to help. 

Oldest is in an off campus apartment at college and paying for all of his rent and utilities with what is left of his scholarship after tuition. He could pay for all of his own groceries with money he's saved but I want him to use that for fun money (which he rarely does) so I give him a gift card every month for groceries. 

I would think a few years after college they will be able to fully support themselves but we will still give gifts for things here and there. 

I'm not talking about gifts but being fully independent so that if the child doesn't NEED support then the parents wouldn't need to help out.

 

[sheryl]

There was an implication perhaps that the middle class wouldn't ask or consider such a question such as this.  We are middle class and have a fair amount tied up in the stock market.  We can afford much more than we buy, but we choose to live somewhat frugally.    Assumptions can run both ways.

Also, just because someone is a millionaire or billionaire does "not" obligate that person to help their children financially.    I can not find a link but I heard Warren Buffett (worth approx $85 billion) that he made his kids "work".   He recounted a story that someone in the family came and asked for money from him and this is where I don't remember the ending.  I don't know if he helped the family member or not.   Amount of wealth does not necessarily dictate level of assistance.  He wanted to teach the work ethic; he had more than enough money to help out.  So, that might not be common but again, assumptions are not want I'm interested.  I'm interested in facts.  If a ya child is on insurance and/or phone plan then that child is "not" FULLY independent.  Title reads "fully independent". 

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

This reply is acknowledgement that I read your response.  Farrar, I'm just not going to "dance" with you on my word choice.  Really?  You're complaining about my word choice?  There are so many more options but I'd have to customize thousands to "fit" all of wtm readers.  This site wouldn't support that and who would do that?  Not me.  I made general classifications.  Like it or not, I don't care.  I'm NOT referring to dependence as one experiencing a crisis and needing a monetary "gift" or "loan".  I'm interested in knowing how many y.a. are fully independent - at the end of the day they do NOT need financial support from their parent/s.  

Huh? I thought we were having a perfectly friendly discussion? And I can't answer the poll as my kids are teens still at home. I'm not complaining about your poll choices. I'm just trying to ask questions to further discussion. I don't know how anything I said could be an attack.

I'm saying that I see this question here on the WTM forums framed in ways that I rarely see it in the circles I move in. And I genuinely do think there's a very blurry line between "gifts" and "support." It's not at all clear to me which are which. I'm not sure why it's so clear to you or others. And part of what I'm saying too is that I think the more privileged a family is, the more likely they are to see resources and money flowing from them to their adult children as a "gift" and not as "support." And the less privileged a family is in my experience, the more likely they are to see resources and support flowing from them to their adult children as a burden, a form of support, and as undermining independence. Also, the less privilege, the more likely it is that the resources that flow from them to their children are going to be things like living at home as opposed to an extra fat check for a birthday.

As someone who is lucky enough to have extended family who definitely have disposable income, I guess I wonder how much the mindset that it's support vs. gifts helps or hurts young adults starting out. Like, dh and my grandparents often gifted us big cash at holidays. We had two hand me down cars from dh's parents in the first few years of our marriage, eliminating the need for us to buy cars ourselves. My father also gifted us money at various points. He also paid off my undergrad student loans for me not long after college. Obviously, all that pays bigger dividends the farther you get away from it. And also obviously, the more money a family has, the more money they have. It's one of the problems of our society - this myth that we can somehow strike out on our own and just get rich. It's a very rare story and getting statistically rarer. Most young people who take those innovative risks are doing it while on their parents' insurance. So the whole question is a very difficult one to really see a clear answer to. And I'm curious how much the "it's just gifts!" view adds to the privilege of the whole question.

[MysteryJen]

I didn't vote- because the choices didn't seem quite right to me. I am with Farrar on this question; I do think that class and parental ability to help plays in. I was independent when I graduated from college- but wow, lived close to the bone in grad school. No medical care, never saw a dentist, no extras- I ran my stipend check to the single digits every month. My brother and sister got more help- I don't know why. When dh and I married, we were independent, but his parents, remembering their young married days, frequently gave us money "just because."

So by your last comment, no- none of my kids are "fully" independent. They are on our insurance- because they are under 25 and we want them to be insured. I pay for the cell phones because they got them in high school and we have continued a family plan. They use our Netflix login in (I use my mother's for cable occasionally). We buy plane tickets home because we want to see them. I put money in their account if I have a little extra- things that would have made my young adult life easier and kinder.

We have gifted the oldest two used cars for college graduation. And dd2 will get hers early- she has a full athletic ride to school. So she can't work a job- she already has one. We agreed to help with dd1's rent this year (in law school) because she also had a large athletic scholarship and we paid very little for her degree. 

We are sure they will be fully independent- sooner (ds1 just got his first job where benefits are actually available and dd2 will graduate from law school) rather than later. Work ethic for most of them was learned through the hard grind of athletics, they know how to budget, they are careful with my money and theirs. We are family- I am going to help out my kids to the best of my ability for as long as I am able. 

 

 

 

 

[Joker]

22 minutes ago, sheryl said:

There was an implication perhaps that the middle class wouldn't ask or consider such a question such as this.  We are middle class and have a fair amount tied up in the stock market.  We can afford much more than we buy, but we choose to live somewhat frugally.    Assumptions can run both ways.

Also, just because someone is a millionaire or billionaire does "not" obligate that person to help their children financially.    I can not find a link but I heard Warren Buffett (worth approx $85 billion) that he made his kids "work".   He recounted a story that someone in the family came and asked for money from him and this is where I don't remember the ending.  I don't know if he helped the family member or not.   Amount of wealth does not necessarily dictate level of assistance.  He wanted to teach the work ethic; he had more than enough money to help out.  So, that might not be common but again, assumptions are not want I'm interested.  I'm interested in facts.  If a ya child is on insurance and/or phone plan then that child is "not" FULLY independent.  Title reads "fully independent". 

So, are they fully independent if I still pay for those things but they don't NEED me to do so? I guess I'm a bit confused too as I don't agree with the above. I'm going to continue to help because I can not because they need me to. 

[Carrie12345]

11 minutes ago, sheryl said:

There was an implication perhaps that the middle class wouldn't ask or consider such a question such as this.  We are middle class and have a fair amount tied up in the stock market.  We can afford much more than we buy, but we choose to live somewhat frugally.    Assumptions can run both ways.

Also, just because someone is a millionaire or billionaire does "not" obligate that person to help their children financially.    I can not find a link but I heard Warren Buffett (worth approx $85 billion) that he made his kids "work".   He recounted a story that someone in the family came and asked for money from him and this is where I don't remember the ending.  I don't know if he helped the family member or not.   Amount of wealth does not necessarily dictate level of assistance.  He wanted to teach the work ethic; he had more than enough money to help out.  So, that might not be common but again, assumptions are not want I'm interested.  I'm interested in facts.  If a ya child is on insurance and/or phone plan then that child is "not" FULLY independent.  Title reads "fully independent". 

Well, there still IS a lot of gray area within facts.

If my husband’s employer offered a good family plan for health insurance, I’d 100% keep my kids on it until the last available second unless they had access to something better and/or cheaper, no matter their own income.  If there were a premium contribution, I would expect them to cover it if they were in a position to do so.  If not, they could be millionaires and I’d still choose to give them “free” health insurance.

Since I DON’T have any fabulous health care options, I do anticipate them getting their own if the situation doesn’t change. They’ll likely have more affordable options as a non-dependent with their own income... whether I pay for it (likely at less than I do now) or they do.

I wouldn’t cut my kids off of good insurance access for the purpose of calling them “fully independent”, and I wouldn’t downgrade their status because of a corrupt and cruel system.

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Joker said:

So, are they fully independent if I still pay for those things but they don't NEED me to do so? I guess I'm a bit confused too as I don't agree with the above. I'm going to continue to help because I can not because they need me to. 

Exactly. And the more money a family has, the more likely they are to be able to give their adult kids a big “Christmas gift” check that happens to cover insurance payments instead of leaving them on their insurance. 

[regentrude]

DD was fully independent upon graduation from college at the age of 21. (ETA: She is still on our health insurance because it makes financial sense. She would be able to pay for her own, but that would be stupid. So yeah, if you want that to count as NOT independent, be my guest - to me such a definition makes zero sense. Why should she throw money out the window if she can be insured through me without cost since I am still paying for dependent insurance for her brother anyway? She does not NEED my assistance.)

DS 20 is still in college and financially dependent.

Edited December 19, 2019 by regentrude

[wintermom]

I'm not sure what the purpose is of this poll. If it's to count numbers and ages, then I guess a clear definition of "independent" is required. If it's to gather a greater depth and detail of information, then do the qualitative collection and analysis. Seems to me that a number and age count will give very limited information, but if that what the OP wants, then she should be able to ask for it. The actual meaningfulness of the data is up to her.

I don't have any dc in the "fully launched" category. I just know that for myself and my dh's family, it would be impossible to provide a simple number and age for this poll.

[sassenach]

12 hours ago, klmama said:

OP -  My "other" vote is mis-aligned with special needs now.  I think sassenech's vote was moved, too.  Did you add special needs after we voted?

Oldest chose not to finish college, but took a full-time job at 20 and lived with friends, paying for most of the regular expenses.  We covered some unexpected car repairs.  At 22, dc  got a better-paying job with benefits and now covers all expenses.  

 

Yes, I voted “other”

[sassenach]

12 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I don't like it either, I feel like I'm really bad with it. It's neither one thing nor the other, and it's hard to know when you're doing the right thing by them. I err on the side of anticipating a slightly later full launch, and hope to be pleasantly surprised if it's earlier!

I will definitely be adjusting my expectations with future kids!

[alewife]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

  I'm interested in knowing how many y.a. are fully independent - at the end of the day they do NOT need financial support from their parent/s.  

My oldest became fully independent when he graduated from college at age 22.  He had saved enough money from his internship his junior year of college that he was able to purchase a car, furniture for his apartment, and pay his security deposit and first month's rent.  His company has better health insurance than we have, so he is not on our insurance either.   

My other adult children are still in college and fully supported by us, like their brother was until he graduated.  

 

[RootAnn]

This is an interesting discussion to me because of the memories of my siblings launching. (My oldest is a freshman in college.)

When I was helping my parents with some financial things several years back, I discovered that my older sister and younger brother were still on my parents' auto insurance. Both were in their 30s and either were married or had been married/divorced already. I was shocked. I also had a sister and a brother (different from above) who lived at home for quite awhile after graduating from college. It isn't a new thing, just more wide-spread maybe.

By the definition here, my mom is not independent from me. I pay for her phone plan (only $120/yr) & my DH has given her substantial "gifts" to cover major house issues (main sewer line replacement, for example). 

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

This reply is acknowledgement that I read your response.  Farrar, I'm just not going to "dance" with you on my word choice.  Really?  You're complaining about my word choice?  There are so many more options but I'd have to customize thousands to "fit" all of wtm readers.  This site wouldn't support that and who would do that?  Not me.  I made general classifications.  Like it or not, I don't care.  I'm NOT referring to dependence as one experiencing a crisis and needing a monetary "gift" or "loan".  I'm interested in knowing how many y.a. are fully independent - at the end of the day they do NOT need financial support from their parent/s.  

Farrar is being perfectly polite in trying to explain that fully independent has little to do with financial situation.

By your definition of not having any financial needs provide by an outside source - most of the sham on here don’t qualify as independent and neither do many elderly. I can make it easy for you. Almost none of any age are independent by your definition.  Heck the only people I know who aren’t getting help from family are people getting help from the state.  I know some wealthy families who are not getting help from anyone once they hit 40ish, but they readily admit they had lots of help both family and state to get to that point and now they help a lot of other people.  And financial discussion of independence just doesn’t exist in most upper classes.  That’s why I say it is a class question, which should not be insulting. 

[katilac]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Also, just because someone is a millionaire or billionaire does "not" obligate that person to help their children financially.    I can not find a link but I heard Warren Buffett (worth approx $85 billion) that he made his kids "work".   

This is a tough comparison to begin with, because it's hardly likely that Warren Buffett's offspring would have trouble finding a well-paying job, lol. In addition to that, Buffett's statements often get interpreted to mean that he does not/did not help his grown kids financially, when that is not the case. 

The clearest statement he has made is that his kids won't inherit the bulk of his fortune. That does not mean no inheritance or no monetary help; each of them has a two billion dollar trust. When the 1% say that they aren't leaving 'much' of their money to their kids, it has an entirely different meaning, lol. Bill Gates has remarked about leaving his kids a 'miniscule' portion of his estate, but a miniscule portion of $81 billion is hardly a miniscule amount of money. One percent would still be $810 million dollars.

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, katilac said:

This is a tough comparison to begin with, because it's hardly likely that Warren Buffett's offspring would have trouble finding a well-paying job, lol. In addition to that, Buffett's statements often get interpreted to mean that he does not/did not help his grown kids financially, when that is not the case. 

The clearest statement he has made is that his kids won't inherit the bulk of his fortune. That does not mean no inheritance or no monetary help; each of them has a two billion dollar trust. When the 1% say that they aren't leaving 'much' of their money to their kids, it has an entirely different meaning, lol. Bill Gates has remarked about leaving his kids a 'miniscule' portion of his estate, but a miniscule portion of $81 billion is hardly a miniscule amount of money. One percent would still be $810 million dollars.

Yes, I was thinking all of the above....

[hornblower]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

There was an implication perhaps that the middle class wouldn't ask or consider such a question such as this.  We are middle class and have a fair amount tied up in the stock market.  We can afford much more than we buy, but we choose to live somewhat frugally.    Assumptions can run both ways.

Also, just because someone is a millionaire or billionaire does "not" obligate that person to help their children financially.    I can not find a link but I heard Warren Buffett (worth approx $85 billion) that he made his kids "work".    

I think this doesn't have to do with money or relative wealth but with a worldview about what the fundamental unit of society is. US culture pushes individual independence. Other cultures push the family unit. It would never occur to some people to not pay for many of their adult children's things etc. I guess it's sort of an obligation.... but that doesn't seem quite right. It's more of a sense of us being a unit.  

I think in your strict definition, I'm not independent of my FOO. 

I don't think there's a right or wrong way about this. It's just different approaches to life and family and finances. 

  

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, hornblower said:

I think this doesn't have to do with money or relative wealth but with a worldview about what the fundamental unit of society is. US culture pushes individual independence. Other cultures push the family unit. It would never occur to some people to not pay for many of their adult children's things etc. I guess it's sort of an obligation.... but that doesn't seem quite right. It's more of a sense of us being a unit.  

I think in your strict definition, I'm not independent of my FOO. 

I don't think there's a right or wrong way about this. It's just different approaches to life and family and finances. 

  

My parents find all kinds of ways to slip me money.  I mean, I never depend on it, but I do know I have them in my corner should times get rough. I went to the store for them and the bill was $31.  My dad gave me a $50.  Things like that.  I do  try to treat them when I can.....but they obviously have more than I do financially and are happy to help or treat. 

[Murphy101]

Financial obligation is a tricky thing.

In theory 18 is an adult and we owe them nothing legally. But in practice there are heavy penalties for the children of parent who do that. 

For example, they can’t go to college or trade school bc their financial contribution is based on their parent income until they are 25.

Usually if they want a car or apartment they are going to need a loan and it is not unusual to need a co-signer unless they have been at their place of employment at least a year and have a lot to put down. In my area you can’t live on your own without a car.  In a much larger city you might be able to walk or bus but the rent is exponentially higher. 

Warren Buffet has helped his grown kids and grandchildren a tonne.  All of them live very comfortable lives, though they do so in a mostly quiet manner similar to the example warren and his wife have set.