Your opinion on teacher’s policy re: bathroom

[Farrar]

10 hours ago, EmseB said:

I have been trying to explain this without being too detailed.

Some people in my house spend TIME taking care of business. Some of us are done in less than five minutes. Some of us can wait all day to go if we need to. Others of us cannot fathom doing that. When some people in my house need to go, I can often tell because of the smell and sounds. That's problematic in a classroom full of teens even if things aren't urgent. At any rate, every body's different, right? Some of us have a shorter fuse than others. I think a medical problem is indicated when the need is truly immediate, like can't wait even 5 minutes or 10. I've heard of people with IBS who can't wait 20 seconds. Needing a toilet within 30 minutes with no other indications of a problem sounds like...not a medical issue to me. But if you hold it in until the urge goes away, you're just setting yourself up for constipation or impaction. This is especially true in kids who are the ones in classrooms dealing wth scheduled bathroom breaks.

I'm not saying that a student should drop everything and book it to the bathroom as soon as they feel the urge. By all means, hold it if you can. Wait until after class. Wait until the lecture is over. But if 20 minutes ticks by and you still have 15 minutes left of class and your stomach hurts like the dickens, then no one should be prevented from going because the teacher has a blanket ban or because they "shouldn't" have to go at that point of the day.

 

Some people in our house also take forever. None of those people go during classes when they're out though. Like, if my kid had to miss a full quarter of the same class nearly every day because it was the class after a meal, that would be a huge problem for the class and my kid. If they really couldn't do it any other way, I think I'd have to get special permission to have a study hall of some kind that period. And I do think that's unusual. You mention IBS - that's a medical condition, which is sort of my point. I'm sure every sizeable school does have a couple of kids with IBS, maybe a kid with an issue like Chron's or colitis or some other more serious issue. But having to have a toilet at hand in less than half an hour at all times does sound like a medical need to me for most adults. Our bodies are habit forming. Most people make the habit of going when they can go and not in the middle of other things. If a student is making their habit time the middle of math... that's not good.

Like I've said, I do agree with the idea that the ideal situation is better school set up and plenty of time so that this isn't a problem for most kids in the first place. And better communities where teachers know the kids and can suss this out a bit. Teachers should never have a rule like this that can't be bent. I mean, even if no kid regularly had a need for the bathroom urgently like this - kids get sick, teenage girl menstruation is unpredictable, and there are a million other reasons that sometimes you have to be flexible. And more respect for kids in general that's built up to throughout schooling would be a good thing. But I also am thinking of the reality in the classroom for most teachers in schools... and the reality that I don't think this is a real need for the vast majority of kids so the benefit of not spending as much as a fifth or a fourth of your class time dealing with kids who say they need to leave the room (and yes, I've seen it be that bad what with pass writing and disruptions) outweighs that - as long as a teacher can be at least a little flexible.

[Lady Florida.]

18 hours ago, Just Kate said:

My ds is age 14, in 9th grade at a small Christian school. He’s been at this school since third grade and we’ve always loved it. However recently a few very young teachers and there have been multiple issues in these classes. Ds rarely gets in trouble (if he does, it’s for something silly like talking in class) and is generally viewed as a well-behaved kid. 

Ds has a 30 minute lunch period and then has English class directly after. Just recently, the English teacher changes the classroom policy and students can no longer use the bathroom during his class. His opinion is that they should go during lunch. Twice since making this new policy, ds almost had an accident in his class because the teacher wouldn’t let him go. Both times, the teacher finally relented and let him go at the very end of class (right before the bell). 

Over the weekend I sent the teacher an email and kindly asked if ds could be allowed to use the bathroom during his class if necessary. I let the teacher know that oftentimes ds has to use the bathroom right after eating and that it doesn’t surprise me that he occasionally needs to go during class. The teacher emailed me back and basically said that it is his new policy to not allow students to use the bathroom during his class and that he feels that ds should be able to go either before or after lunch. He offered to schedule a time to talk with me over the phone if I felt like he wasn’t clear in his class mail  

I want to respond back, but I guess I’m looking for validation. I don’t think that it fair for a teacher to say that a student can never use the bathroom during their class and I’m upset that this is becoming such a big deal. 

What do you think of this policy? How would you feel if you were me?

 

Wow. I don't know how big your school is but I taught in a high school and the kids barely had time to eat lunch, let alone use the (crowded) bathroom or go to their lockers during that time.  I can understand the teacher having been in his shoes, when everyone wants to use the bathroom and you want to get to the part where you - you know - teach. Of course you can't make him change his policy but when I had classes after lunch I usually let very short tardiness slide, or let my students use the bathroom after the bell rang. Shoot, as a teacher I barely had time for lunch and a bathroom stop. Having planning period right before or right after lunch was a coveted schedule for teachers. I would think he'd be more understanding. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[TCB]

16 hours ago, EmseB said:

Again, put yourself in the shoes of a high school kid having to convince his teacher every day at the same time that he is going to poop his pants if he is not allowed to go to the restroom. I mean, really?

There really are jobs though, where you can not go to the bathroom as soon as you need to. I can't believe how many on here seem to have not experienced that. I'm an RN and I can't just down tools and head to the bathroom. So I plan things out if at all possible - if I'm going to be in a room for a while doing something then I go before I go in - even if I'm not at the stage of really needing to go. I know that there are certain times - for example during a resuscitation attempt, when I just have to wait. Also, most people do not have to have a BM the very minute they get the  'call to stool' from their bowel, unless there is some medical issue. Not acting on it for a short while is not going to cause you terrible long term problems, it's ignoring it several times that can cause you problems. If a child has a medical issue they should be allowed to go whenever they need. If there is a systems problem - not enough break time to go - that should be fixed. I don't think it is a reasonable expectation in our society, to be able to always go to the bathroom the instant you need. There are several physiological precursors with our sphincters that are specifically there to help us have warning that we will need to find an appropriate place in the not too distant future to relieve ourselves, so start getting organized to do so.

If you absolutely can not wait a short while because of medical issues then that is one of the things you need to think about in the job you have etc. I can't imagine how horrendous it is if you have something like Crohn's Disease and you have to find a bathroom instantly when you're out and about. A kid  with something like that needs to be allowed out whenever. Most physiologically normal people, and teens, can plan ahead most of the time. I can't remember kids going out to the bathroom often when I was in school - it was an infrequent occurrence. 

[Pen]

Maybe this child needs a school with longer lunches and less rigidity. 

[Lady Florida.]

I should have read through the thread, and now I see people are talking about longer trips. That would be a problem every day. I was thinking of a quick trip to the bathroom to pee. I don't see how that could work out. We too have household members who take a long time, but they rarely use the bathroom for that purpose when out. They only do that on rare occasions when it can't be helped. 

I don't know what the answer is but missing a chunk of class every day or even several times a week isn't good. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[Just Kate]

16 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

Wow. I don't know how big your school is but I taught in a high school and the kids barely had time to eat lunch, let alone use the (crowded) bathroom or go to their lockers during that time.  I can understand the teacher having been in his shoes, when everyone wants to use the bathroom and you want to get to the part where you - you know - teach. Of course you can't make him change his policy but when I had classes after lunch I usually let very short tardiness slide, or let my students use the bathroom after the bell rang. Shoot, as a teacher I barely had time for lunch and a bathroom stop. Having planning period right before or right after lunch was a coveted schedule for teachers. I would think he'd be more understanding. 

 

The school is very small (about 250 kids total in grades K-12). Ds tries to go over lunch (which is 30 minutes), but he doesn’t always have to go. Also, this teacher will certainly mark the students as tardy if they are late to class, so that has been an issue as well. 

I mentioned previously that there are a few new, very young teachers at the school and this is one of them. These teachers are struggling with classroom management. We have a new principal this year so the school revamped their discipline policy (demerit system). From talking to other parents I’m finding that students are regularly getting demerits In these young teachers’ classes, but not in their other classes. Sadly, I just talked to a friend/other parent who is moving her three boys to the public school after Christmas because she was so concerned that her one son (in my ds class) was going to get expelled for forgetting his pencil and talking in class. This family has always been a great supporter of our school and I am so sad to see them leave. 

I really think the problem here is lack of classroom management skills. They are teaching kids who aren’t that much younger and just don’t have the skills to manage the class properly. I will admit that ds’s class is a very close group. They are all friends and are very social. I’ve also been told that as a group, they are very intelligent and tend to get bored easily. So I don’t doubt at all that the teachers may need to find creative ways to manage the class. But the more seasoned teachers aren’t having this problem, so there must be other options out there. I don’t claim to know the answer (I’m not a teacher!) but not allowing a kid to use the bathroom seems like a silly class management system to me. 

[Lady Florida.]

18 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Most high schools I'm familiar with a. only have 3 - 5 minutes between classes (which may mean there's simply no time to go to the bathroom, even if there wouldn't be a line) and b. lock the bathrooms from five minutes before the end of the period until five minutes after the start of the period anyway. So no, you can't go between classes.

And how long is his lunch break? NYC schools typically have a full class period for lunch, but I've heard of other places that only have 20 minutes or so. That's not long to stand in line, sit down, eat your lunch, and then use the facilities - again, even if there isn't a line for the toilet!

The high school where I taught, as well as the 13 others in the county have 5 minutes between classes and a 30 minute lunch break. My hs currently has just over 1400 students in grades 9-12. Not huge, but certainly not a small school.  Also, many Florida schools, especially older ones, are very spread out. It can take nearly 5 minutes to walk from your class to the lunchroom. Then you have to go through the line, find a seat, eat, clean up after yourself, and hope your next class isn't on the other side of campus. Students hardly ever have time to use the restroom either between classes or before/after lunch. If they can get to the bathroom it's crowded. Not halftime at a football game crowded, but still too crowded to do their business and get to class on time. The lucky ones have a class right next to the nearest rest room and can make a beeline for it as soon as the bell rings. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[TCB]

14 hours ago, Pronghorn said:

The funny thing to me in reading this is what happened to me this morning. I ate breakfast, went to the bathroom, drove my child to community college, a half hour trip. As I walked with my child toward her class, I asked her if she minded if we stopped at the first building we saw to see if we could find a bathroom. I absolutely needed it! And, yes, I will have to get a job somewhere other than a factory, but kids do not have a choice to avoid school like I can avoid a factory job.

So, I guess I'd better call the doctor tomorrow and schedule a full bowel workup!

Does it happen every or most days though? That's, I think, what the op was talking about. Everyone has stuff happen now and again, but if it's all the time then there may be a medical issue.

[Bluegoat]

Well, I too see this from both POV.  It really is a PITA for the teacher, even without a pass system.  And, I will say, if a lot of kids are doing this, it is a pain for the other kids as well.

The other thing is - teens this age can be kind of entitled.  They want the respect to have control over their bodily functions, and yet they will abuse it - and not just by doing other things, but by taking advantage ad going off to pee more than they really need to.  Sometimes I think part of teaching kids at this age is actually saying - no, it's just not appropriate behaviour to be going off to the toilet in class unless it is really urgent.  Of course for kids that do this the rule is a drag.  But lots of kids need a push, not just to not abuse it, but to take the time to manage their bodies.

I do think schools need to try and plan breaks and such into the day to minimise the need for kids to go during class.  I think that is something parents should suggest and advocate for if necessary.  For the OP, I would talk about that with the teacher for sure - I would point out that if they will have policies like this, there needs to be time for kids to go between classes.  And that they might want to consider extending the lunch period too.

Honestly, I think if they do that, most kids will be able to wait at most times.  People can generally wait an hour without ill effect at all.  Including for a bm - generally speaking bodies are able to wait for this, as it's a bad idea to settle down for it when there are tigers or some such lurking about.  Real urgency on this at a regular basis would be reason for a special exception I think.

Missing a good chunk of class a few times a week seems less than ideal, but if he really can't wait, he can't.  I'd have my son approach the teacher about it, maybe with a promise to think about what the boy might do to try and minimise the problem.

[Junie]

26 minutes ago, Just Kate said:

 

The school is very small (about 250 kids total in grades K-12). Ds tries to go over lunch (which is 30 minutes), but he doesn’t always have to go. Also, this teacher will certainly mark the students as tardy if they are late to class, so that has been an issue as well. 

I mentioned previously that there are a few new, very young teachers at the school and this is one of them. These teachers are struggling with classroom management. We have a new principal this year so the school revamped their discipline policy (demerit system). From talking to other parents I’m finding that students are regularly getting demerits In these young teachers’ classes, but not in their other classes. Sadly, I just talked to a friend/other parent who is moving her three boys to the public school after Christmas because she was so concerned that her one son (in my ds class) was going to get expelled for forgetting his pencil and talking in class. This family has always been a great supporter of our school and I am so sad to see them leave. 

I really think the problem here is lack of classroom management skills. They are teaching kids who aren’t that much younger and just don’t have the skills to manage the class properly. I will admit that ds’s class is a very close group. They are all friends and are very social. I’ve also been told that as a group, they are very intelligent and tend to get bored easily. So I don’t doubt at all that the teachers may need to find creative ways to manage the class. But the more seasoned teachers aren’t having this problem, so there must be other options out there. I don’t claim to know the answer (I’m not a teacher!) but not allowing a kid to use the bathroom seems like a silly class management system to me. 

The school you describe is very much like the one I taught in.  It is so hard for first-year teachers.  IME, classroom management skills only come with experience and maturity.  I was very young the (one and only) year I taught high school English.  I looked like one of the students.  The seniors were the same age as my brother.

Because of my inexperience, I lost the respect of the students at the beginning of the year.  It made the year nearly impossible.  If I would have continued another year, I think I would have done better with the incoming class.  And the following year I would have done even better with the new incoming class.

The problem with schools like this is the same students have the same teachers every.single.year.  And once respect is lost it is hard to regain.  It isn't really about new options.  It is about new attitudes.  On all sides.

[Bootsie]

32 minutes ago, Just Kate said:

 

The school is very small (about 250 kids total in grades K-12). Ds tries to go over lunch (which is 30 minutes), but he doesn’t always have to go. Also, this teacher will certainly mark the students as tardy if they are late to class, so that has been an issue as well. 

I mentioned previously that there are a few new, very young teachers at the school and this is one of them. These teachers are struggling with classroom management. We have a new principal this year so the school revamped their discipline policy (demerit system). From talking to other parents I’m finding that students are regularly getting demerits In these young teachers’ classes, but not in their other classes. Sadly, I just talked to a friend/other parent who is moving her three boys to the public school after Christmas because she was so concerned that her one son (in my ds class) was going to get expelled for forgetting his pencil and talking in class. This family has always been a great supporter of our school and I am so sad to see them leave. 

I really think the problem here is lack of classroom management skills. They are teaching kids who aren’t that much younger and just don’t have the skills to manage the class properly. I will admit that ds’s class is a very close group. They are all friends and are very social. I’ve also been told that as a group, they are very intelligent and tend to get bored easily. So I don’t doubt at all that the teachers may need to find creative ways to manage the class. But the more seasoned teachers aren’t having this problem, so there must be other options out there. I don’t claim to know the answer (I’m not a teacher!) but not allowing a kid to use the bathroom seems like a silly class management system to me. 

It can be very difficult for a new teacher in a setting where there is an established close-knit group.  The newer (and younger) teachers are likely to be be tested in ways that the older, respected, known teachers are.  Although part of it may be that the younger teachers do not have the experience and classroom management skills that the existing teachers have, it is also possible that they are dealing with things in their classrooms that the other teachers are not.  

[SanDiegoMom]

17 minutes ago, Just Kate said:

I really think the problem here is lack of classroom management skills. They are teaching kids who aren’t that much younger and just don’t have the skills to manage the class properly. I will admit that ds’s class is a very close group. They are all friends and are very social. I’ve also been told that as a group, they are very intelligent and tend to get bored easily. So I don’t doubt at all that the teachers may need to find creative ways to manage the class. But the more seasoned teachers aren’t having this problem, so there must be other options out there. I don’t claim to know the answer (I’m not a teacher!) but not allowing a kid to use the bathroom seems like a silly class management system to me. 

 

I went to a large HS with a pretty sizable drop out rate.  Teachers struggled to engage the kids and there were tons of kids leaving class, roaming the halls, etc.  But the teachers who engaged them and also  treated them like adults? Those classes didn't have problems with kids leaving class.  Not every teacher had that gift.  And honestly, the kids that do leave class for reasons other than bathroom needs aren't learning anyway, whether they are in class or out of class.  Either they have given up on public education or, like myself and previous posters, they know the information and are bored out of their minds. 

My daughter who went through public school said she finally felt like a person when her 11th and12th grade teachers allowed them to leave whenever they needed to use the bathroom without asking.  I know that they were the "good" kids -- they were mostly AP classes by then, but she had been pretty beaten down by all of the dehumanizing rules over the years and it helped her to eke out those last couple of years. She was ready to bolt and had been researching early college pretty seriously. 

And now in college she has autonomy over her schedule to use the bathroom when she needs -- she doesn't have classes back to back for 7 hour stretches.  

[EmseB]

52 minutes ago, TCB said:

There really are jobs though, where you can not go to the bathroom as soon as you need to. I can't believe how many on here seem to have not experienced that. I'm an RN and I can't just down tools and head to the bathroom. So I plan things out if at all possible - if I'm going to be in a room for a while doing something then I go before I go in - even if I'm not at the stage of really needing to go. I know that there are certain times - for example during a resuscitation attempt, when I just have to wait. Also, most people do not have to have a BM the very minute they get the  'call to stool' from their bowel, unless there is some medical issue. Not acting on it for a short while is not going to cause you terrible long term problems, it's ignoring it several times that can cause you problems. If a child has a medical issue they should be allowed to go whenever they need. If there is a systems problem - not enough break time to go - that should be fixed. I don't think it is a reasonable expectation in our society, to be able to always go to the bathroom the instant you need. There are several physiological precursors with our sphincters that are specifically there to help us have warning that we will need to find an appropriate place in the not too distant future to relieve ourselves, so start getting organized to do so.

If you absolutely can not wait a short while because of medical issues then that is one of the things you need to think about in the job you have etc. I can't imagine how horrendous it is if you have something like Crohn's Disease and you have to find a bathroom instantly when you're out and about. A kid  with something like that needs to be allowed out whenever. Most physiologically normal people, and teens, can plan ahead most of the time. I can't remember kids going out to the bathroom often when I was in school - it was an infrequent occurrence. 

I addressed most all of this later in the thread. I was not talking about instantly, nor do I think high school is in the same category as demanding jobs. Needing to go to the bathroom ~30 minutes after eating a meal isn't a medical problem. Needing to use the restroom w/in 20-30 minutes of recognizing the urge isn't a medical problem. It is inconvenient for certain things, but it's not pathological absent other symptoms of a problem.

All I'm saying is that I can imagine pretty much exactly what the OP is talking about with her kid because I lived it and I had no troubles in adulthood like I did in high school. I worked fast food where there were times we couldn't leave the counter because it was so busy, I was in the military and went through boot camp and other things...no issues. But if the school is putting your eating or physical activity on a schedule, your body will likely get on one as well. I'm sorry if it's annoying for a teacher to have to deal with bodily functions of humans interrupting their time. I'm sure in the OP's class he'd rather have it not be an issue at all. I thought about this last night and I would even support banning bathroom breaks for the first 30 minutes of a class. But zero tolerance policies on bathroom usage are cruel and unnecessary in most cases.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

Whoa, "to talk with me over the phone if I felt like he wasn’t clear in his class mail  "     He didn't!   That was a verbal slap.  I would expect the teacher to treat even the kids better than that.  

Thirty minutes can be a very small time for lunch.   I remember having that amount of time in Junior High and sometimes having to continue eating WHILE walking out of the cafeteria because I ended up at the end of the line.  Bathroom was totally out of the question.  

I'd had to go to the bathroom frequently as a teen.   Some of it was a small bladder and sometimes there was no time to move between classes and going to the locker.   Some of it was that I was bleeding myself anemic and I sometimes had replace the tampon more often then every hour.  What teachers did was to demand you come by their class after school to spend a few minutes to 'make up the time'.   If you agreed instantly, like I did, they never actually made you stay.   Most kids didn't agree and sat back down.  
 

 

That sounds like an interesting ploy to get at real need.  

[Lady Florida.]

39 minutes ago, Junie said:

The school you describe is very much like the one I taught in.  It is so hard for first-year teachers.  IME, classroom management skills only come with experience and maturity.  I was very young the (one and only) year I taught high school English.  I looked like one of the students.  The seniors were the same age as my brother.

Because of my inexperience, I lost the respect of the students at the beginning of the year.  It made the year nearly impossible.  If I would have continued another year, I think I would have done better with the incoming class.  And the following year I would have done even better with the new incoming class.

The problem with schools like this is the same students have the same teachers every.single.year.  And once respect is lost it is hard to regain.  It isn't really about new options.  It is about new attitudes.  On all sides.

I looked (and was) very young in my early teaching career too. It's much better/easier to start out being very strict then relaxing your rules than it is to start out trying to be the cool teacher, then realizing you need to pull the reins in. The latter doesn't work. I don't envy new young teachers. At all. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[marbel]

15 hours ago, Pronghorn said:

The funny thing to me in reading this is what happened to me this morning. I ate breakfast, went to the bathroom, drove my child to community college, a half hour trip. As I walked with my child toward her class, I asked her if she minded if we stopped at the first building we saw to see if we could find a bathroom. I absolutely needed it! And, yes, I will have to get a job somewhere other than a factory, but kids do not have a choice to avoid school like I can avoid a factory job.

So, I guess I'd better call the doctor tomorrow and schedule a full bowel workup!

This doesn't seem all that unusual to me.  The body takes some time to process the food/drink, right?  If I have two cups of coffee in the morning, then leave the house shortly after, I'm looking for a bathroom within an hour at the most even if I stopped in the bathroom on the way out.   

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, marbel said:

This doesn't seem all that unusual to me.  The body takes some time to process the food/drink, right?  If I have two cups of coffee in the morning, then leave the house shortly after, I'm looking for a bathroom within an hour at the most even if I stopped in the bathroom on the way out.   

 

Same here — and I would be pretty miserable if I was in a situation where I wasn’t allowed to use the rest room until a specified time! 

It sounds like this teacher is still very new to the job, and I can’t help but wonder if he is excited about getting his first taste of power over other people, and he’s abusing it because he CAN. It seems almost like he needs to control his students and his classroom to an unreasonable degree, if he goes so far as to establish a strict “no bathroom” rule.

Just Kate mentioned that other families are having problems with the newer teachers, as well, to the point where one family she knows is removing their children from the school next year, despite having loved and supported the school in the past. That’s a big deal, particularly for such a small school. It would appear that it’s time for these families to get together and approach the administration with their concerns, so hopefully the issues can be worked out. The new teachers may need additional training and guidance from the administration, and the students are probably responsible for some of the problems, too, so that would need to be addressed as well. 

[Junie]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Same here — and I would be pretty miserable if I was in a situation where I wasn’t allowed to use the rest room until a specified time! 

It sounds like this teacher is still very new to the job, and I can’t help but wonder if he is excited about getting his first taste of power over other people, and he’s abusing it because he CAN. It seems almost like he needs to control his students and his classroom to an unreasonable degree, if he goes so far as to establish a strict “no bathroom” rule.

Just Kate mentioned that other families are having problems with the newer teachers, as well, to the point where one family she knows is removing their children from the school next year, despite having loved and supported the school in the past. That’s a big deal, particularly for such a small school. It would appear that it’s time for these families to get together and approach the administration with their concerns, so hopefully the issues can be worked out. The new teachers may need additional training and guidance from the administration, and the students are probably responsible for some of the problems, too, so that would need to be addressed as well. 

I agree completely with your last paragraph.

As to the teacher on a power trip, my guess is that it is more a grasping at straws to have some semblance of control over his classroom.  At least that's how it was for me.  The kids ran most of my classes and they knew it. 

Experienced teachers have the benefit of having taught the lessons before -- sometimes the same classes for many, many years.  They learn what works and what doesn't.  This helps immensely in keeping the class on task and interested.  New teachers are just beginning to figure this out.

I was hired two weeks before the start of school, moved to a new town where I knew no one, and had 6 class preps daily.  I was the only English teacher in the school for grades 7-12.  It was a lot of work and I had very little support.  And I was paid less than my students were making at their after-school jobs.  It was truthfully demoralizing.

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, Junie said:

I agree completely with your last paragraph.

As to the teacher on a power trip, my guess is that it is more a grasping at straws to have some semblance of control over his classroom.  At least that's how it was for me.  The kids ran most of my classes and they knew it. 

Experienced teachers have the benefit of having taught the lessons before -- sometimes the same classes for many, many years.  They learn what works and what doesn't.  This helps immensely in keeping the class on task and interested.  New teachers are just beginning to figure this out.

I was hired two weeks before the start of school, moved to a new town where I knew no one, and had 6 class preps daily.  I was the only English teacher in the school for grades 7-12.  It was a lot of work and I had very little support.  And I was paid less than my students were making at their after-school jobs.  It was truthfully demoralizing.

 

I’m sure you’re right that most new teachers are just trying to get a handle on how to manage their classrooms, but when I read this thread, I was reminded of a guy I knew who started teaching high school, and he was a real jerk about it. He had been picked on a lot in school, and I swear he just wanted revenge and control over his students because he would brag about being mean to them. It must have been awful for his students. I didn’t stay in touch with the guy (mainly because of that whole “he was a real jerk” thing,) but I bumped into him a few years later and he was a car salesman. He said he got sick of teaching, but I suspected he had probably been fired. Thank goodness.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Catwoman

[Tanaqui]

Look what popped up on my feed! Relevant link is relevant.

[SereneHome]

So, I didn't read the thread beyond the first response (which I agree with 100%), but this whole thing makes my blood boil and makes me want to get on my soap box

Why oh why do we expect our children to behave so differently that we expect from adults. 

I have been to boardroom and other meetings, theater productions, various training events, religious ceremonies, funerals and may other events where people got up and walked out, started eating (loudly), playing on the phone, answering phones, talking to each other, etc etc etc.  And yet, if you are a kid - you better sit your tie your butt to a chair, don't move, don't utter a sound, for as long as we, adults, tell you to.   Arghhhh...

I gotta get to work or I would keep going, bc I have  A LOT more to say about this.

 

 

[SKL]

Back when I was in "secondary school" I wrote an article for the school paper about how inadequate the 2.5 minutes were to do what needed to be done - sometimes even just to get to the next class.  The principal's response was, first of all, "well MY sons have no trouble doing it."  Hmm, like anyone is going to give your sons a hard time or even stand in their way in the halls.  (That was also his answer to bullying issues - "this doesn't happen to MY sons, so")  Second, the more legitimate argument, was that if they doubled the time to 5 minutes, they'd have to extend the school day.  Do you want to get to school before 8am, or leave after 2:40, or both? 

I think I'd be in favor of lengthening the school day in order to let people do their business between classes.  Not sure if I'm in the majority there though.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SKL

[shawthorne44]

My dad had even offered to come to school and move between the classes himself.   Some classes changes weren't a problem, some were.  But, my dad is a big guy.   He is tall with both lots of muscle and lots of fat.  Kids would have hurt themselves in their effort to get out of his way.   Me, not so much.  

For your amusement, but a true story.  An elementary school was built and then had to be immediately rebuilt because no one noticed until the final walk through that there was precisely ONE pair of bathrooms.   Might have been one for the teachers too.  Average size school with 6-7 grades and around 100 kids in each grade.  

[ktgrok]

Needing to poop 30-60 minutes after eating is not a medical problem, it is normal bowel health. That there is no time to do that without leaving class is a scheduling problem, not a medical problem. 

[Lady Florida.]

47 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

My dad had even offered to come to school and move between the classes himself.   Some classes changes weren't a problem, some were.  

 

The high school where I taught has a parent open house each year. During that time they do a mini schedule so the parents can see what it's like for their kids. It's not like a parent teacher conference night where you actually spend time talking to the teachers - the "classes" only last about 15 minutes each. Just enough time for the teacher to give a short intro and tell the parents a bit about the class. But the time between those open house classes is the same as students get. The parents then have a better understanding of what their kids experience each day as they go from class to class. 

[QueenCat]

20 hours ago, Just Kate said:

 

Ds doesn’t have to go to the bathroom in English class every day. I asked him how often and he said maybe twice a week. He tries to go at lunchtime, but often he just doesn’t need to yet. 

 

 

 

Does he at least TRY every day, towards the end of lunch? To try to prevent needing to go during English? 

[Zinnias]

I am utterly and completely amazed by the number of people that will go #2 at school/work/any other public places.  I can remember one time that that happened to me.  In my life.  And it was a case of a really upset stomach.  I didn't know people did this in public. I'll have to ask my kids if they ever have (I don't think so).

[Hoggirl]

I have not read the entire thread, and I know the OP was speaking of a son, but the idea that bathroom visits are restricted for young women dealing with irregular periods bugs me immensely.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by Hoggirl

[Bluegoat]

32 minutes ago, Zinnias said:

I am utterly and completely amazed by the number of people that will go #2 at school/work/any other public places.  I can remember one time that that happened to me.  In my life.  And it was a case of a really upset stomach.  I didn't know people did this in public. I'll have to ask my kids if they ever have (I don't think so).

 

Oh, yeah, I don't either.  I had to get ver that a little in the army, but now, no way.  I think there is some pretty deep psychological thing going on, if I've been out of the house longer than a day or so, I often find myself having to go as I get close to home.  

[Corraleno]

17 minutes ago, Zinnias said:

I am utterly and completely amazed by the number of people that will go #2 at school/work/any other public places.  I can remember one time that that happened to me.  In my life.  And it was a case of a really upset stomach.  I didn't know people did this in public. I'll have to ask my kids if they ever have (I don't think so).

How does that work? Do people who work full time really manage to schedule their intestinal processes in a way that ensures they never ever have to go during work hours? If you're out shopping and need to go, do you just jump in the car and head home ASAP? Do you ever travel by air? Or even take long car trips? I can't imagine trying to schedule my life in such a way that I never ever have to use a public bathroom for #2.

I'm really curious about the reasoning behind it. Is it a germ thing? (Although aren't the same germs there even if you just go in to pee?)

[BarbecueMom]

44 minutes ago, Zinnias said:

I am utterly and completely amazed by the number of people that will go #2 at school/work/any other public places.  I can remember one time that that happened to me.  In my life.  And it was a case of a really upset stomach.  I didn't know people did this in public. I'll have to ask my kids if they ever have (I don't think so).

No kidding!  I won’t even use the non-master bathrooms in my own house for that.

Of course (TMI time) I’m on the “once or twice a week” schedule in that regard, so it’s not too hard to make sure I’m home for that.

[creekland]

1 hour ago, Zinnias said:

I am utterly and completely amazed by the number of people that will go #2 at school/work/any other public places.  I can remember one time that that happened to me.  In my life.  And it was a case of a really upset stomach.  I didn't know people did this in public. I'll have to ask my kids if they ever have (I don't think so).

 

I can't fathom not going when I need to go.  We travel way too much and for long periods of time.  I've gone in the woods when I have to.  Actually, with some of our travels, just having a flush toilet and paper is a nice bonus.  No one in my family has issues going wherever the need hits - even if we're just at a restaurant 15 minutes from home and almost done eating.  Sometimes I go at school right before leaving for home just to be more comfortable on the drive home. That one depends upon my whim at the time.

I've no idea how other people hold it TBH - or why they want to try to do so. 

[KungFuPanda]

21 minutes ago, BarbecueMom said:

No kidding!  I won’t even use the non-master bathrooms in my own house for that.

Of course (TMI time) I’m on the “once or twice a week” schedule in that regard, so it’s not too hard to make sure I’m home for that.

😧 Are you comfortable????

[BarbecueMom]

31 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

😧 Are you comfortable????

Eh, I have a complicated relationship with my digestive system.  It could be (and has been) worse.

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

How does that work? Do people who work full time really manage to schedule their intestinal processes in a way that ensures they never ever have to go during work hours? If you're out shopping and need to go, do you just jump in the car and head home ASAP? Do you ever travel by air? Or even take long car trips? I can't imagine trying to schedule my life in such a way that I never ever have to use a public bathroom for #2.

I'm really curious about the reasoning behind it. Is it a germ thing? (Although aren't the same germs there even if you just go in to pee?)

A lot of women aren't comfortable with other people hearing them poop. They'll play a waiting game if another woman is in the public bathroom at the same time, and sit in silence waiting for everyone else to empty out of the room.  It's kind of ridiculous, IMO, but whatever.  I'm former military, so any sense of modesty I once had evaporated in basic training. 

[Pen]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

Back when I was in "secondary school" I wrote an article for the school paper about how inadequate the 2.5 minutes were to do what needed to be done - sometimes even just to get to the next class.  The principal's response was, first of all, "well MY sons have no trouble doing it."  Hmm, like anyone is going to give your sons a hard time or even stand in their way in the halls.  (That was also his answer to bullying issues - "this doesn't happen to MY sons, so")  Second, the more legitimate argument, was that if they doubled the time to 5 minutes, they'd have to extend the school day.  Do you want to get to school before 8am, or leave after 2:40, or both? 

I think I'd be in favor of lengthening the school day in order to let people do their business between classes.  Not sure if I'm in the majority there though.

 

Here they start at 8, end at 3:15, and get 5 minutes between classes. It still might not be enough time for #2.  

[Tanaqui]

Extending the school day is a legitimate concern (though an added two minutes per class is only about a 15 minute extension of the school day) but there's a compromise position - they could increase passing time for every other period instead of all of them. That wouldn't be perfect, but it's better than having too-short passing times EVERY period. (And if they have a mandatory twice a day homeroom they could jiggle the schedule so as to reduce the time spent in homeroom and put that time into passing periods.

[Tanaqui]

So just FYI to people on wildly different schedules - any pooping schedule between "twice a day" or "twice a week" is within the normal range and can be healthy. If you're straining or if it's liquidy then it's not healthy no matter how often you're going.

[marbel]

6 hours ago, MissLemon said:

A lot of women aren't comfortable with other people hearing them poop. They'll play a waiting game if another woman is in the public bathroom at the same time, and sit in silence waiting for everyone else to empty out of the room.  It's kind of ridiculous, IMO, but whatever.  I'm former military, so any sense of modesty I once had evaporated in basic training. 

It's not necessarily ridiculous.  Some people just need more privacy than others and things simply won't work if there are other people around. I can't use the master bathroom if my husband is in the bedroom.  I don't know why, but everything just sort of shuts down and I will sit there in vain.  

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

So just FYI to people on wildly different schedules - any pooping schedule between "twice a day" or "twice a week" is within the normal range and can be healthy. If you're straining or if it's liquidy then it's not healthy no matter how often you're going.

The numbers I've seen are the rule of 3, three times a day to three times a week. 

[Soror]

But it is not just holding it for one class, with as busy as some days are there is hardly any time in there at all. My daughter told me she drastically reduced her water intake at school because she never could get to the bathroom. They were supposed to have time after lunch but that didn't happen, in middle school, they can't do it between classes, they are all together. Ds manages ok at his Jr. High as their schedule is not so controlled and his teachers aren't as strict. 

[creekland]

Personally, I still feel that by high school level (at least - since that's where I work), all (mentally normal) humans know their bathroom needs the best and ought to be able to do what is needed without getting "permission."  This is true in the classroom and true in the workplace.

If a student is out in the halls doing "whatever else" punish that - not the other students who can handle real life.

If an adult chooses to use diapers for their job due to inaccessibility to a bathroom (astronauts, hunters who don't want to use the woods itself, folks who don't like public places, whatever), who cares?  It's when someone HAS to do this because other humans feel the need to create an environment where they can't use a restroom that there's a problem in need of fixing.

[TechWife]

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

A lot of women aren't comfortable with other people hearing them poop. They'll play a waiting game if another woman is in the public bathroom at the same time, and sit in silence waiting for everyone else to empty out of the room.  It's kind of ridiculous, IMO, but whatever.  I'm former military, so any sense of modesty I once had evaporated in basic training. 

I don't understand why, either. Maybe more people should read Everyone Poops? It's just science, folks!

Edited December 5, 2018 by TechWife

[J-rap]

The odd thing to me after reading all of this is that I don't ever remember, ever, any of my classmates having this problem growing up, and I feel like a lot of us were pretty honest with each other, especially in high school!  I think most people get on a regular cycle, don't they?  I don't recall any classmate sitting in the stall for 10 minutes.  It was always a quick 2 minutes, and done.  I'd guess that one could kind of train themselves to take care of their business when they're home.  Also, I've never heard that a big meal causes a need for a bm.  I mean, food takes around 6 hours to digest, doesn't it?  

So, it surprises me all of the people who have responded that this is a real need and that one has no control over it.  Maybe I've just been lucky and clueless;  that's very possible.  But, even if most people are like me, I'm sure there are people out there who are not, and who struggle with this.  In which case, I agree that it's terrible for a teacher to absolutely prevent someone from using the bathroom.  

[Pen]

34 minutes ago, J-rap said:

The odd thing to me after reading all of this is that I don't ever remember, ever, any of my classmates having this problem growing up, and I feel like a lot of us were pretty honest with each other, especially in high school!  I think most people get on a regular cycle, don't they?  I don't recall any classmate sitting in the stall for 10 minutes.  It was always a quick 2 minutes, and done.  I'd guess that one could kind of train themselves to take care of their business when they're home.  Also, I've never heard that a big meal causes a need for a bm.  I mean, food takes around 6 hours to digest, doesn't it?  

So, it surprises me all of the people who have responded that this is a real need and that one has no control over it.  Maybe I've just been lucky and clueless;  that's very possible.  But, even if most people are like me, I'm sure there are people out there who are not, and who struggle with this.  In which case, I agree that it's terrible for a teacher to absolutely prevent someone from using the bathroom.  

 

It may be within “normal” limits.  However IME most 14yo people have developed bowel/sphincter control such that this is not common. Most 14yo people I know can go in a car or school bus or on subway transport, for example, for an hour or more after lunch without needing an urgent stop or being in danger of soiling themselves.  

The urgency and near soiling himself would concern me .  I would at least want to check into it. 

And also I would want the teacher to let him leave the room as needed.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by Pen

[SKL]

As for doing #2 around others, I was like this well into my young adulthood.  Not sure when I stopped caring.  But for many years, I would not want to make a stink or those noises where anyone would associate it with me.  It was just too much sharing for me.  I was also too embarrassed even to let other females know I was on my period.  I would not go buy a pad from the machine unless nobody else was in the room.

Which is actually kinda funny given that I shared a bathroom with my parents and 5 siblings growing up.

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

The odd thing to me after reading all of this is that I don't ever remember, ever, any of my classmates having this problem growing up, and I feel like a lot of us were pretty honest with each other, especially in high school!  I think most people get on a regular cycle, don't they?  I don't recall any classmate sitting in the stall for 10 minutes.  It was always a quick 2 minutes, and done.  I'd guess that one could kind of train themselves to take care of their business when they're home.  Also, I've never heard that a big meal causes a need for a bm.  I mean, food takes around 6 hours to digest, doesn't it?  

So, it surprises me all of the people who have responded that this is a real need and that one has no control over it.  Maybe I've just been lucky and clueless;  that's very possible.  But, even if most people are like me, I'm sure there are people out there who are not, and who struggle with this.  In which case, I agree that it's terrible for a teacher to absolutely prevent someone from using the bathroom.  

Eating stimulates the digestive tract. For some people this happens after eating (no you're not pooping the food you just ate, the food you just ate moves everything else through. I forget what it's called, but there is some kind of thing that happens between the stomach and the colon when people eat.) At any rate, for some people it happens when they drink their morning cup of coffee. For some people it happens a certain number of hours after they wake up. It's not that one has no control, obviously, it's that the amount of time from signal to needing to go is shorter in some people than in others.

I had some pretty good friends in high school. None of them knew anything about what I've posted here or that a couple times a week I sat in the last 15-20 minutes of class extremely uncomfortable. If I could have somehow trained myself to go at a different time or only at home, I would have done it. I tried everything. But I did not tell ANYONE about this. And I was on a regular cycle...just at the wrong time of day as a middle/high school student. 

 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

It may be within “normal” limits.  However IME most 14yo people have developed bowel/sphincter control such that this is not common. Most 14yo people I know can go in a car or school bus or on subway transport, for example, for an hour or more after lunch without needing an urgent stop or being in danger of soiling themselves.  

The urgency and near soiling himself would concern me .  I would at least want to check into it. 

And also I would want the teacher to let him leave the room as needed.  

2

If you think about it, though, everyone will get to the point of urgency or near soiling themselves, right? No one has infinite control over those things. Now whether you can put that point off for 8 hours, 12 hours, 3 hours, 1 hour, or 30 minutes from the time you know you need to go is going to depend on the person. But everyone will eventually get there. But because I can't possibly fathom being able to hold off going to the bathroom for 3 hours doesn't mean that people who can do that are some kind of medical mystery or problem. Just put yourself in the position of thinking about the idea that when you personally would reach a point of discomfort, someone says, "Nope, you can't go right now." Or you know something will make you have to go and someone tells you that you have to do that thing on their schedule and then you won't be allowed to go because you should do better at digesting on a different schedule.

If that happens at inconvenient times, then it's inconvenient, but it's not necessarily a medical issue. But this thread is definitely reminding me why it's such a huge issue to have to ask other people to go to the bathroom. Because other people decide that you can just hold it, or train yourself differently, or that only being able to hold it x amount of time must mean you're ill and abnormal, or couldn't you possibly just make yourself go at another time? This is actually why I never told anyone. As a teen, it's less than awesome to be reminded that you're different from most of your peers in a really embarrassing and gross aspect of life.

I would agree that I would look into it medically if there were other signs of GI problems. But, again, needing to go after eating and being uncomfortable holding it after 20-30 min of needing to go is not in and of itself a problem.

[Lady Florida.]

13 hours ago, Corraleno said:

How does that work? Do people who work full time really manage to schedule their intestinal processes in a way that ensures they never ever have to go during work hours? If you're out shopping and need to go, do you just jump in the car and head home ASAP? Do you ever travel by air? Or even take long car trips? I can't imagine trying to schedule my life in such a way that I never ever have to use a public bathroom for #2.

I'm really curious about the reasoning behind it. Is it a germ thing? (Although aren't the same germs there even if you just go in to pee?)

I think unless one has to go it's a body thing. My body won't let me go when I'm away from home for a while and yes, that can get uncomfortable. I've had to take something to help if we're gone for more than a few days. We had a dog who used to travel with us and he wouldn't poop while we were gone, or he'd only go occasionally. As soon as we'd get home he would go out into the yard and start dropping poop mines everywhere. To this day we joke about it when anyone in the family has to go #2 after coming home from a trip. We call it pooping like Dingo. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Eating stimulates the digestive tract. For some people this happens after eating (no you're not pooping the food you just ate, the food you just ate moves everything else through. I forget what it's called, but there is some kind of thing that happens between the stomach and the colon when people eat.)

 

Are you thinking of Gastrocolic reflex?  

If exaggerated, it may be related to irritable bowel syndrome 

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

At any rate, for some people it happens when they drink their morning cup of coffee. For some people it happens a certain number of hours after they wake up. It's not that one has no control, obviously, it's that the amount of time from signal to needing to go is shorter in some people than in others.

I had some pretty good friends in high school. None of them knew anything about what I've posted here or that a couple times a week I sat in the last 15-20 minutes of class extremely uncomfortable. If I could have somehow trained myself to go at a different time or only at home, I would have done it. I tried everything. But I did not tell ANYONE about this. And I was on a regular cycle...just at the wrong time of day as a middle/high school student. 

 

I am am sorry that you had a bad experience with this. 

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

If you think about it, though, everyone will get to the point of urgency or near soiling themselves, right? No one has infinite control over those things. Now whether you can put that point off for 8 hours, 12 hours, 3 hours, 1 hour, or 30 minutes from the time you know you need to go is going to depend on the person. But everyone will eventually get there. But because I can't possibly fathom being able to hold off going to the bathroom for 3 hours doesn't mean that people who can do that are some kind of medical mystery or problem. Just put yourself in the position of thinking about the idea that when you personally would reach a point of discomfort, someone says, "Nope, you can't go right now." Or you know something will make you have to go and someone tells you that you have to do that thing on their schedule and then you won't be allowed to go because you should do better at digesting on a different schedule.

If that happens at inconvenient times, then it's inconvenient, but it's not necessarily a medical issue. But this thread is definitely reminding me why it's such a huge issue to have to ask other people to go to the bathroom. Because other people decide that you can just hold it, or train yourself differently, or that only being able to hold it x amount of time must mean you're ill and abnormal, or couldn't you possibly just make yourself go at another time? This is actually why I never told anyone.

 

Again, I am sorry that this has happened in your life. 

It sounds like it still is an emotionally charged situation.  

 

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

 

As a teen, it's less than awesome to be reminded that you're different from most of your peers in a really embarrassing and gross aspect of life.

 

It is too bad that modern Western culture has caused something so basic to life to be so embarrassing.  

I gather that discussion about poop and poop qualities and so on is not such a big deal in some cultures. 

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

I would agree that I would look into it medically if there were other signs of GI problems. But, again, needing to go after eating and being uncomfortable holding it after 20-30 min of needing to go is not in and of itself a problem.

 

I absolutely agree that the teacher needs to allow the boy to go to the bathroom when the boy needs to (and not to be snarky about it to the boy or the mom).  No disagreement there. 

I also think that many American schools have a problem generally with too short lunch periods and break times too short or nonexistent.  (I cannot speak to schools elsewhere.) 

And I agree that there may be no medical or emotional  issue going on.

Or there may be one. 

I would want to check it out. 

 

I am somewhat personally aware of issues along those lines because I have a medical condition that does affect bladder urgency.  And I was a foster parent in past and was aware of particularly an emotional issue that could cause GI problems where special arrangements with a school needed to be made.  But because I have specific knowledge of situations where there is a medical or emotional  underlying problem does not mean that Just Kate’s son has one. Nor that you did. I have said that I personally would check it out were this my child. 

Some situations might exist where the situation could be improved at the gut or emotional level—as well as at the school policy level.

Ymmv.

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Pen

[Pen]

Adding, I know people who experience rapid bowel motility and discomfort following certain foods such as sugar and/or cruciferous vegetables and/or grains, and/or dairy and/or other specific foods. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Pen