What do you think of disobeying evacuation orders? UPDATE OMG! They freakin lied!!

[Ginevra]

I think my BIL/SIL will probably stay put on the NC coast; just judging by personality, especially of BIL. I personally do not think it is wise, but I’m a cautious person who would (muuuuuch) rather be safe than sorry. 

What do you think of those who remain undeterred when a hurricane is bearing down? 

UPDATE: So BIL, who will forthwith be described as “The Idiot” and SIL lied to all of us and did not evacuate! I am SO incensed! What in the actual heck? The Idiot put up photos on FB, explained that they lied to all family/friends so we would not worry, and then stayed on the dang beach! Then describes the destruction, with photos and water up to his chest. Water up to within a foot of the top of their garage. Plus other assorted calamities which, thankfully did not kill them. ? I am actually PO’d that there is a slew of comments thanking “God” they are safe! OmG, I have a hunch that, if God intervenes at all, it probably isn’t for people who can’t make a mature decision all by themselves! 

Honestly, if they were insistent upon deceiving every freaking one, they should have just kept up the ruse and lied again to orrow, saying they arrived back home and the house is still there. 

Dumb. Dumbdumbdumbdiddy dumb, I knew it was like him to be a stubborn boob and was amazed they had decided to evacuate. But no! They actually are that stubborn and also deceptive. 

Bah. I am so mad and dh is asleep on the couch so I can’t even rant to him! He checked on his sister twice today and she lied! 

Boobs! 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Quill

[DawnM]

N/M

Edited September 15, 2018 by DawnM

[Annie G]

If people want to stay, I guess it’s their choice. But they shouldn’t expect emergency personnel to risk their own lives to rescue them during the hurricane.

[catz]

I am sympathetic because not everyone has somewhere to go or the finances to just easily drive many hours and get a hotel.  

[Pawz4me]

Depends on where it is. Wilmington would likely be pretty safe since it’s not really on the coast. The Outer Banks? No way would I stay on that skinny excuse for land in a hurricane. That’s asking for death. Generally the authorities along the OBX ask people who refuse to evacuate to provide the name of their next of kin, and they (EMS/LEO) clearly state that they will not be able to help people beyond a certain time. Nor should they be expected to. 

[marbel]

I'm with MedicMom and Annie G - stay if you want, but don't expect to be rescued.  I have a vague memory of some jerky person in my past -  might have been my first husband - who had the attitude that no matter what they did, they could call for rescue, so there was no reason to obey evac and other safety orders.  That attitude makes me feel sick. 

ETA: After seeing FuzzyCatz post - I am sympathetic to those who can't leave as well. I was thinking more of the attitude of "I won't leave."  

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by marbel

[gardenmom5]

that they shouldn't expect first reponders to try and rescue them  when they get into trouble.or change their mind

[73349]

I find it alarming. I'm 2+ hours inland and at a decent elevation and expecting this storm to be a problem. If I lived on the coast, I would've spent today packing/nailing stuff down and would be departing at sunrise tomorrow.

I'd like to see coastal states do more to coordinate evacuation/shelter assistance for those who need it (e.g., school buses from Wilmington bring you right to a shelter in Charlotte).

[Annie G]

8 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I am sympathetic because not everyone has somewhere to go or the finances to just easily drive many hours and get a hotel.  

Yeah, I assumed we were talking about people who choose to stay even though there are options.  I’m sympathetic to people who cannot leave due to finances but still feel that it’s not fair to expect rescue during the hurricane. However, I really wish there was a program in place to help evacuate people with limited means and shelter them until the storm passes. Many times it’s just for a few days- surely we as a country can figure this out. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

My sister is in Charleston.  She is currently trying to decide.  Technically they are under a mandatory evacuation by noon tomorrow.  Her only place to come is here (Charlotte) with family and she feels we might get more of the storm than Charleston.  I think she said the local news said 30% chance.  So what she has decided is to wait until tomorrow night and see what things look like then?  Such a tough call.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I am sympathetic because not everyone has somewhere to go or the finances to just easily drive many hours and get a hotel.  

In the case of my relatives, it is not lack of resources, though. It is purely choice. 

[Chris in VA]

I'll be direct and say I think it is selfish and stupid. I have been thru Andrew and Isabelle and another two whose names I I can't remember (they were just Cat 1s). 

[Carrie12345]

16 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think people who choose to stay in spite of evac orders, when the situation is like this (hurricane, visible in the ocean, reliabile predictions of path) means choosing to rescue yourself.  I think that society, in general, should rescue folks when it's logistically possible, but I don't think first responders should have to put their own lives on the line to rescue people who choose to ignore life saving measures issued earlier.  

And yet they ( and others ) will, whether their superiors require it or their ethics demand it. Sigh. 

[jewellsmommy]

I don't like that people are willing to ignore evac orders. A good sized portion of our surrounding area is under mandatory evac. We know some people that are toying with the idea of staying put and ignoring the orders even though they have the means to evacuate. We are at one of the highest places on the peninsula, thankfully, so it's easy for me to have that opinion and I realize that. I try not to be too opinionated about it, but I wish people would show more caution.

I firmly believe that more should be done to aid those in mandatory evac zones. Schools have already been cancelled until further notice in most of our surrounding cities. I think they should use the school buses to help get people to shelters.

Edited September 11, 2018 by jewellsmommy

[forty-two]

I think there is a difference between ignoring voluntary and mandatory evacuation orders.  My parents have never ignored mandatory evacuation orders, but they tend to stay when there's voluntary ones.  Which boils down to leaving for cat 4 or 5, and staying for cat 3, unless there's something that makes it esp dangerous.  They are on locally high ground and can withstand 25ft storm surges, and the house can handle cat 3 winds.  In general, they would rather be there to deal with problems than leave; they leave when they don't expect to have a house to come back to if the hurricane hits.

As for why people stay when under mandatory orders, from what I've heard, it's a combo of "boy who cried wolf" wrt evac orders (its been fine more often than not), the hardship of evacuating, and preferring to go down with their house than to leave it. 

[elegantlion]

Having been through two hurricane evacuation orders in two weeks, I'd say it depends. Are they right on the coast or just a bit further inland. We stayed for the second order because frankly we were broke and exhausted. We knew our house wouldn't flood because it was high enough on a hill and far enough inland. We sat in the dark with boarded windows for a few days. Had we been in certain parts of the same time (also inland) we couldn't have stayed because of the risk of flooding. 

I have not watched the reports on this storm, so I don't know what's going on except that it's gained power. 

I grew up in tornado alley, two minutes to grab shoes and head to the basement when there is a warning. Hurricane evacuation is a whole other beast. You have days to plan, watch, pack, ponder, then you get to sit in traffic for hours to leave and get a few miles. We stayed at a hotel in another state full of evacuees with their pets, it's was total chaos. It's emotionally and physically exhausting on a level that is hard to explain. I can see why people hesitate.

At least where we were, our neighbors had it all down to a science on whether to leave or stay, when to leave, etc. 

Then it's hard to gauge reporting too. We sat through a few other hurricanes that ended up being little more than just regular storms, but people back in the midwest were very concerned that we didn't leave because the national news had played them up so much. 

For myself, I'd err on the side of caution and leave under a mandatory order, other than that I gauge my own local propensities to flood and wind damage. 

 

[Terabith]

I'm 4.5 hours inland, and they're expecting two FEET of rain and 60 mph winds.  I'm alarmed.  

[Liz CA]

1 hour ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

I think people have the right to do as they want, but they don’t have the right to expect emergency personnel to risk their own lives to come save them when they choose to ignore mandatory evacuation orders.

 

Agree with this. We had advisory evacuation warning and evacuated closer to our work; spent one night in a seedy hotel (they took dogs :)) and then went home again once the danger had passed. I am not sure what kind of enforcement "mandatory evacs" carry if any but endangering others' lives because I wanted to sit tight and wait it out should not be an option. Those who choose to remain in the danger areas do so knowing they are on their own.

[Guest]

My BIL’s house is ON the ocean, with a boat and a dock. They are elevated, but there are limits still. 

[Liz CA]

8 minutes ago, tbog said:

 

Agreed. I WAS inland, and we got hit by Charley and the same area last year by Irma. We had some smaller ones cause damage over the years. We couldn't afford to go anywhere. Any family we had was in the Midwest. Finances were the reason we left FL and moved back to the Midwest.   Just because people SHOULD it doesn't mean they CAN. 

 

This is true as well and as someone else posted, it's incredibly disruptive. In the span of half an hour I ended up packing and we loaded the car. Dh is much better with this and thought of important things to take. We were offered reimbursement later but declined since the amount was small and the service fee would have reduced it even further BUT those who had to leave their homes for several days / weeks definitely deserved some financial help. Those who could not afford hotels at all, were pointed to shelters but it depends how many shelters are available and population density / circumstances. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Liz CA

[elegantlion]

23 minutes ago, Quill said:

My BIL’s house is ON the ocean, with a boat and a dock. They are elevated, but there are limits still. 

Yeah, I'd be leaving. In Louisiana we saw beach homes on high piers just disappear during one of those storms. 

[Lady Florida.]

Were they told to evacuate? There's a big difference between disobeying evacuation orders and not evacuating "just in case" even if you're not in an evacuation area. We chose not to evacuate for Irma though many people we know did, and people (here on WTM as well as elsewhere) berated me for laying out our our sensible reasons why we were staying. If we were ever told to evacuate, we would. If not (and I've never been in a mandatory evacuation zone) we evaluate the situation and make a reasonable decision based on many factors. 

All of the above means I wouldn't automatically think someone is wrong for staying behind if I don't know their situation. Do they have mandatory evacuation orders? If so, I think they should go. If not there are so many things to consider - Where in the cone do they live? Are they in a low lying area? Flood prone? On a barrier island? In a mobile or manufactured home? Do they have an infant? Are they elderly? Do they have medical conditions that would be a problem if they were without power, water, communication for any length of time? It's not a simple decision and leaving just in case when you really don't need to clogs up the roads and makes getting out difficult for those who truly need to evacuate.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[ktgrok]

It angers me. My parents were going to do it when we got hit last time. They live on a freaking barrier island and were in the direct path. The only reason they finally left was because I was pregnant and told them it wasn't good for me to worry about them, and my mom is paranoid about pregnant women so backed down. But yeah, risking your life to stay and protect your things is not a fair trade off to the ones who love you. I can replace things. I can't replace my parents, and the idea of them putting themselves are risk over material possessions made me see red. 

Then the storm ended up veering and not hitting their house, so I heard a bunch of "we should have stayed". Um, no...storms are unpredictable but you don't stay on a barrier island when you are in the projected path. And, "but my neighbors are staying" is not a valid argument. 

[Lady Florida.]

41 minutes ago, Quill said:

My BIL’s house is ON the ocean, with a boat and a dock. They are elevated, but there are limits still. 

I didn't see this before I responded. Yeah, if I was in the cone I'd be gone.

We only evacuated once and we didn't leave the area. When Floyd was expected to hit us we lived in a two story stucco over wood frame house. It had a lot of windows and was surrounded by trees. We went to my IL's who lived nearby but also lived in a block home. Floyd ended up missing us as a direct hit but ds had just turned 2 and we weren't taking any chances.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I am sympathetic because not everyone has somewhere to go or the finances to just easily drive many hours and get a hotel.  

True, but in those instances there are free rides to the local shelters, which are generally fairly close by. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Lady Florida. said:

I didn't see this before I responded. Yeah, if I was in the cone I'd be gone.

We only evacuated once and we didn't leave the area. When Floyd was expected to hit us we lived in a two story stucco over wood frame house. It had a lot of windows and was surrounded by trees. We went to my IL's who lived nearby but also lived in a block home. Floyd ended up missing us as a direct hit but ds had just turned 2 and we weren't taking any chances.

Right. Evacuation doesn't mean driving hours and hours for most people. It means leaving a low lying area to move to a higher one, or a less stable structure for a more stable one. 

That said, even those with means often don't evacuate or wait til the last minute. My aunt has a second house in the mountains of north carolina she could have flown to but waited until the last minute and then drove in terrible weather and traffic to stay with a friend a few hours away. 

[Ausmumof3]

We don’t have hurricanes but bushfires.  At least two people around us still have a house because people stayed and didn’t evacuate or got around road blocks.  

But if that’s what you choose you need to be prepared to be independent 

[Petrichor]

To preface: I live far, far away from the ocean.

I'm surprised that some sort of free transportation isn't offered when people are ordered to evacuate ?

 

If you are ordered to evacuate, I think it's irresponsible to stay (and ridiculous to feel entitled to having someone bail you out if you insist on staying) but I also think it's irresponsible of the government (City, State, you name it) to not provide transportation outta there.

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, tbog said:

 

Agreed. I WAS inland, and we got hit by Charley and the same area last year by Irma. We had some smaller ones cause damage over the years. We couldn't afford to go anywhere. Any family we had was in the Midwest. Finances were the reason we left FL and moved back to the Midwest.   Just because people SHOULD it doesn't mean they CAN. 

There was a distinction made between those who can't and those who choose not to, for what ever that's worth.
Here's the thing - all of those first responders and volunteers? They're going to do everything they can to help the most vulnerable. It's what they do. But when you add people who could leave but don't, that dilutes the help available to everyone. There's a real reason that the hierarchy goes individual-local-county-state-federal, but it only works when each level plays its assigned role.

After Katrina, it sickens me to think that there are still coastal communities that don't have emergency management plans for people who lack the means to evacuate. 

[Guest]

Little update this morning: SIL and BIL and leaving today. They moved their boat and a horse and are driving inland. So I am very happy about that! 

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, tbog said:

 

During Charley, even shelters were hit. We moved to FL with a great job, made good money... then recession hit and that job was lost. We lived in a poor county. Savings didn't last. We lived paycheck to paycheck because commuting for work was the only option. Taking two dogs and a cat along with five people anywhere wasn't financially an option. After paying bills and getting groceries we barely had the money for gas to get to work, let alone hundreds of miles down a highway in bumper to bumper traffic. It was and is reality for a lot of people. And it was the reason we live somewhere else now. 

Again, evacuation can mean 10 miles, to a higher elevation, not hundreds of miles. Were you under a mandatory evacuation order? If not then no, it doesn't make sense to leave most of the time. 

Edited to add: I do have more sympathy for people on the very edge of an evacuation area, as the boundaries can be a little bit arbitrary. So if you are right on the edge, and you know your area isn't a flood risk, and you have solid construction and hurricane shutters and supplies, and depending on the strength of the storm, yeah, I could see that. Like, if two blocks over is not under evacuation and it isn't due to flood zone differences, okay. But barrier island? Nope. You leave. 

8 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Staying because you're guessing it won't be t hat bad and you have not been asked to evacuate? That's not weird to me. I know people do this all the time. 

Not only do people do that, but that is what is encouraged! If you are NOT in a mandatory evacuation zone they don't want you to evacuate, as you will clog up the roads/shelters/etc for those that ARE under an evacuation order. I did leave once, when I wasn't under an evacuation order, to go stay at my sister's house a few miles away - but we left when the roads were clear and didn't need to use the highway anyway. We did it because I had a young child and no hurricane shutters or way to board up the windows (husband at the time, my ex, had significant medical issues and couldn't do it). But generally, for a hurricane, if you aren't going to flood and you are not right on the coast or in a mobile home you stay. 

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Little update this morning: SIL and BIL and leaving today. They moved their boat and a horse and are driving inland. So I am very happy about that! 

I'm so glad!

Edited September 11, 2018 by Ktgrok

[school17777]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Little update this morning: SIL and BIL and leaving today. They moved their boat and a horse and are driving inland. So I am very happy about that! 

 

What a relief!  Hope their home isn’t destroyed in the storm.

[vonfirmath]

9 hours ago, Petrichor said:

To preface: I live far, far away from the ocean.

I'm surprised that some sort of free transportation isn't offered when people are ordered to evacuate ?

 

If you are ordered to evacuate, I think it's irresponsible to stay (and ridiculous to feel entitled to having someone bail you out if you insist on staying) but I also think it's irresponsible of the government (City, State, you name it) to not provide transportation outta there.

 

Someone would have to drive the free transportation, then get back into the area to evacuate their own families. Generally school bus drivers are not paid enough for this.  And not just anyone can drive a bus -- you need a special license. In fact local bus barns are constantly hiring so I think it may be difficult to find people with that license.

 

And I just thought. There were people bussed out of Houston a few years back (hurricane Rita) -- and I remember the stories about the horrible conditions on those buses

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by vonfirmath

[Carrie12345]

4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Someone would have to drive the free transportation, then get back into the area to evacuate their own families. Generally school bus drivers are not paid enough for this.  And not just anyone can drive a bus -- you need a special license. In fact local bus barns are constantly hiring so I think it may be difficult to find people with that license.

 

Emergency Managers are trained and paid to identify these resources in advance. It’s not supposed to be some 11th hour panic. That’s why it’s called “planning”.

[goldberry]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

There was a distinction made between those who can't and those who choose not to, for what ever that's worth.
Here's the thing - all of those first responders and volunteers? They're going to do everything they can to help the most vulnerable. It's what they do. But when you add people who could leave but don't, that dilutes the help available to everyone. There's a real reason that the hierarchy goes individual-local-county-state-federal, but it only works when each level plays its assigned role.

 

This.  If there is a mandatory evacuation, it is selfish and stupid to refuse.  It's fine to say, "I don't expect to be rescued or taken care of".  But when you are standing on the roof of your flooded home, someone is going to come because 1st responders and rescuers are humans and that's what they do.  It's the same to me as a person who chooses voluntarily not to have insurance because "they don't need it," but when they are in a car accident, of course they will be picked up and transported by the ambulance and taken care of at the hospital.  

So yes, selfish and stupid for mandatory.  Voluntary evacs are just that... voluntary.

[lavender's green]

I think on the Outer Banks it's ridiculous. It's a strip of sand that barely rises above sea level. In many places you can see both sides of the islands. In some places the erosion is ridiculous. There was a beach house we stayed at two times, a couple years apart. The second time, the beach had completely disappeared. It was just lost to the ocean. There was just a sand dune cliff with water at the bottom. No way would I want just that standing between me (and car and house and loved ones) and the ocean.

I don't know. Part of me appreciates the freedom to do my own thing (though I wouldn't disobey mandatory evacuation orders), so I also want that for other people. OTOH, especially as I get older and see more, some people just lack the information, intelligence, or personality type (I'm thinking stubborn or contrarian people), to make an informed choice. And it's sad when they're in charge of children and pets.

 

[SKL]

The "don't expect to be rescued" - sounds logical, but the rescuers WILL risk their lives trying to save people who didn't listen, and some of the rescuers may be injured or killed.

That said, I can understand the logic of staying put if you feel that statistically, it is unlikely to make a difference for you personally.  It is a pain in the butt to relocate - and cost is going to be a big issue for some.  Having never been asked to, I'm not sure what I would do.

I think the reason they ask people to relocate before the storm hits is to avoid a big dangerous traffic jam once people realize what's hitting them.  So I think I'd lean toward - evacuate if it isn't too difficult, so I'm not in the way of others if it gets really bad.  For me, I could pack my computer (which contains all my work) and drive west fairly easily.  My parents would have a much harder time of it.  Pain and mobility issues, being able to get to the bathroom, heightened anxiety, not having any free cash.  These are going to weigh against the statistical likelihood that they will be in a fix if they stay.

[umsami]

As somebody who lives in Florida, I would say..."Don't be stupid."  (Edited...glad they are leaving.)

I understand people who cannot afford to evacuate...such as happened with Katrina.  For all the others?  Don't be an idiot.  Mother Nature is much stronger than you think.  Honestly, if first responders have to rescue you and you refused to evacuate for anything other than an extremely good reason, you should pay the costs.  You should also pay in cash any medical bills from any injuries you receive because you stayed.  

If you evacuate early, you can find shelters for pets.  You can find a safe space.  Heck, you can go to friends and not be stuck on the roads.

 

I live 25 minutes from the Atlantic.  My neighborhood is a flood once very hundred years place.  It flooded last year during the hurricane.  My parents live near Orlando.  Their neighborhood flooded due to the St. Johns River flooding.  They had to live in a hotel for two months (their own expense) due to that.  

 

Once again, don't be stupid. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by umsami

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Little update this morning: SIL and BIL and leaving today. They moved their boat and a horse and are driving inland. So I am very happy about that! 

I'm glad to hear it. This is a huge storm and from what I've read the entire coast of NC is under a watch, which I'm sure will be changed to a warning by later today or tomorrow. This is going to be a storm unlike any they've seen in that area in a very long time. 

10 hours ago, tbog said:

 

During Charley, even shelters were hit. 

I'm sorry that happened to you. Charley was unusual due to both its rapid strengthening and its sudden track change. It was difficult to know what to do for that storm, and that really doesn't happen often. While hurricanes can and often do change course they're usually easier to predict than Charley was, and the change doesn't usually occur so late without forecasters knowing that it's going to happen.

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

 

Not only do people do that, but that is what is encouraged! If you are NOT in a mandatory evacuation zone they don't want you to evacuate, as you will clog up the roads/shelters/etc for those that ARE under an evacuation order. <snip> But generally, for a hurricane, if you aren't going to flood and you are not right on the coast or in a mobile home you stay. 

 

^^This^^ I tried to explain this over and over again in the very long thread last year as Irma was heading towards us. You were one of the few who understood what I was saying. Several people were arguing with me telling me how wrong I was. I never said those in evacuation areas should stay put or those with special circumstances who aren't in an evacuation zone should also stay put. Only that there are a number of things to consider, that evacuating just in case is usually not the best decision, and that paying close attention to your local emergency services information is what you need to do. 

National media and often even local media tend to make things worse and scare people instead of helping them make rational decisions. Even now those of us who are not in NC/SC or don't have family or friends there are probably not getting the good information that those in the watch and warning areas are hearing. 

[umsami]

20 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I

^^This^^ I tried to explain this over and over again in the very long thread last year as Irma was heading towards us. You were one of the few who understood what I was saying. Several people were arguing with me telling me how wrong I was. I never said those in evacuation areas should stay put or those with special circumstances who aren't in an evacuation zone should also stay put. Only that there are a number of things to consider, that evacuating just in case is usually not the best decision, and that paying close attention to your local emergency services information is what you need to do. 

National media and often even local media tend to make things worse and scare people instead of helping them make rational decisions. Even now those of us who are not in NC/SC or don't have family or friends there are probably not getting the good information that those in the watch and warning areas are hearing. 

Yes, we do not evacuate where we live.  We hunker down.  Friends who live at the beach are welcome as are their pets.  We have a gallon of water for each person/pet for at least 3-4 days.  We have canned foods, etc.  My parents installed a generator after last year, so we would go there if power was out for awhile.  

When we lived on the Gulf, our home had hurricane shutters and we would evacuate if asked.  We had to put them up three weeks after moving in, which was a bit of a shock.  Haha.  It was a false alarm--but better safe than sorry.  If you are under mandatory evacuation, then you evacuate.  If not, save the space for people who need it.  

Edited September 11, 2018 by umsami

[Lady Florida.]

35 minutes ago, SKL said:

The "don't expect to be rescued" - sounds logical, but the rescuers WILL risk their lives trying to save people who didn't listen, and some of the rescuers may be injured or killed.

 

I know you weren't the only one who said this about first responders but yours was the last post I saw on the subject so I quoted you for context.

They won't. They're not allowed to. My stepson is a first responder (firefighter-paramedic). During our last two hurricanes, Matthew in 2016 and Irma in 2017, he was required to work. Their station in Cocoa Beach is new and quite solid. In fact, last year when Irma hit, the police from the precinct right next to their station came over and rode out the storm with them. Together they watched the roof fly off of the police station.

Anyway, he said they are not allowed to go out until it's safe. Winds have to be down to a certain speed and power lines have to be cleared. They received calls but as much as they wanted to respond, they weren't allowed. They had to tell the people," We're very sorry but we're unable to help you. We will be there as soon as it's deemed safe for us to go out."

ETA: Different states, cities, or counties might have different rules. In the county dss works for they cannot respond to calls until emergency management says it's safe for them to go out.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[athena1277]

13 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

Hurricane evacuation orders in my town come with instructions to write your name and SSN on your body with a sharpie marker, because that's the risknyou are taking. Past a certain point, first responders will not come for you (nor should they be expected to) if you've declined the evacuation order. 

This is what I was going to say.   My parents live in LA and just before Katrina this is what those who stayed were told.  If “help us identify your body after the storm” doesn’t get people to leave, nothing will.

Also, if communication is knocked out, it will be extremely hard to get any help, possibly for days.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, goldberry said:

 

This.  If there is a mandatory evacuation, it is selfish and stupid to refuse.  It's fine to say, "I don't expect to be rescued or taken care of".  But when you are standing on the roof of your flooded home, someone is going to come because 1st responders and rescuers are humans and that's what they do.  It's the same to me as a person who chooses voluntarily not to have insurance because "they don't need it," but when they are in a car accident, of course they will be picked up and transported by the ambulance and taken care of at the hospital.  

 

6 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I know you weren't the only one who said this about first responders but yours was the last post I saw on the subject so I quoted you for context.

They won't. They're not allowed to. My stepson is a first responder (firefighter-paramedic). During our last two hurricanes, Matthew in 2016 and Irma in 2017, he was required to work. Their station in Cocoa Beach is new and quite solid. In fact, the police from the precinct right next to their station came over and rode out the storm with them. Together they watched the roof fly off of the police station.

Anyway, he said they are not allowed to go out until it's safe. Winds have to be down to a certain speed and power lines have to be cleared. They received calls but as much as they wanted to respond, they weren't allowed. They had to tell the people," We're very sorry but we're unable to help you. We will be there as soon as it's deemed safe for us to go out."

Yes, I believe it is 45 mph when they stop responding. 

That said, I still think it is awful mean to traumatize them when they come find your dead body days later. 

[G5052]

15 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I know you weren't the only one who said this about first responders but yours was the last post I saw on the subject so I quoted you for context.

They won't. They're not allowed to. My stepson is a first responder (firefighter-paramedic). During our last two hurricanes, Matthew in 2016 and Irma in 2017, he was required to work. Their station in Cocoa Beach is new and quite solid. In fact, last year when Irma hit, the police from the precinct right next to their station came over and rode out the storm with them. Together they watched the roof fly off of the police station.

Anyway, he said they are not allowed to go out until it's safe. Winds have to be down to a certain speed and power lines have to be cleared. They received calls but as much as they wanted to respond, they weren't allowed. They had to tell the people," We're very sorry but we're unable to help you. We will be there as soon as it's deemed safe for us to go out."

ETA: Different states, cities, or counties might have different rules. In the county dss works for they cannot respond to calls until emergency management says it's safe for them to go out.

 

Exactly. There is always some risk involved, but there are certain conditions where they are not allowed to take risks. There's a line set for them.

As an example, a friend of mine's daughter was horrifically injured in a car accident during very thick fog and heavy rain. They needed to take her to a trauma center, but a helicopter couldn't get through, so EMS drove her there. She died an hour later in the hospital. They couldn't risk a helicopter crew for her and apologized to her parents. My friend and her husband completely understood.

My oldest is leaving tomorrow for disaster relief, and he's already been briefed on the parameters they must operate under. 

[Farrar]

Anyone staying on the Outer Banks for this one is really being beyond foolhardy. When I was in middle school, a classmate's mother went to the beach house during a hurricane, got drunk, died. It was rumored to have basically been "suicide by hurricane" - I remember how disturbed I was by that.

We all remember Fran and Floyd and so forth... but right now they're predicting some Hazel level hurricane. Most of us don't remember that. Have you seen the viral image going around that shows the flooding level for each of the hurricanes on a pole? And all the 90's hurricanes are down low and Hazel is at the very top of the image?

I understand why people further in hunker down. Unless you're at specific risk for flooding, I think it makes sense. But I also think if you can leave, it's good to leave. People were without power for weeks and some people were without water when Fran hit. Did you see they closed UNC-CH and sent the students home? It's not that they were in danger per se, it's that the logistics are about to be horrible - and can even become unsafe.

So, that's the other end of the problem when you "hunker down." Your property is safe... but then if it's really bad enough, conditions could be dire for some people, like young children or the elderly, two weeks down the road when pollution is everywhere, there's no clean water, clean up is delayed. Etc.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes, I believe it is 45 mph when they stop responding. 

That said, I still think it is awful mean to traumatize them when they come find your dead body days later. 

 

Yes, I understand they won't go out during the storm, until it is deemed safe.  But afterward, there are people who, if they are still alive, are going to need rescued from areas where they shouldn't still be in the first place.

[Lady Florida.]

3 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

Yes, I understand they won't go out during the storm, until it is deemed safe.  But afterward, there are people who, if they are still alive, are going to need rescued from areas where they shouldn't still be in the first place.

Right. And they don't go out afterwards until power lines are cleared and the area has been deemed safe, not flooded, etc. 

[sassenach]

I think they put first responders in unnecessary risk, which is selfish. 

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

And I just thought. There were people bussed out of Houston a few years back (hurricane Rita) -- and I remember the stories about the horrible conditions on those buses

 

With Rita, one of the fundamental problems was that there was such a logjam on roads that people were still stuck on them when the hurricane hit.  With Harvey, even with notice that it was strengthening, there was a reluctance to call for mandatory evacuations because there was no way to put 6 million + people on the roads out of Houston.  Even those in the Corpus Christi bay area (Port Aransas, Rockport, etc.) had really heavy traffic as there is only one real highway between Corpus and San Antonio.

Really, truly, I believe that Texas and a number of other coastal states need to flat out ban development (and redevelopment) of areas prone to flooding. Greed brought on a lot of Houston's woes---houses were (and are) being built along places where they have no business being built. Houston floods every time it rains heavily because it's built on a swamp.

It seems simple: you shouldn't have people living where they need to be evacuated from frequently, especially if there are no feasible means of evacuation.

[prairiewindmomma]

My thoughts on refusing to evacuate during a mandatory evacuation:

1. It's incredibly selfish if you have family or friends who care about and are worried about you.

2. It's your own right if you are a cognitively functional adult AND you have no minor children. Preferably, you have a will and things taken care of in your personal affairs.

3. You should be entirely self-sufficient and able to remain so for weeks so that effort can be made on clearing roads and restoring services. 

ETA: and by refusing I mean capable of doing so, and choosing not to....

Edited September 11, 2018 by prairiewindmomma
clarity