Grandma in the tub with littles

[gardenmom5]

I think it's boundary crossing, and probably indicative of grandma's discretion taking a leave.   My mom did stuff like this before she was diagnosed with tias (damage is cumulative).  just weird stuff that was odd or boundary crossing, but her mind was going.

[Zebra]

I don't see any problem with that, as long as the child is not uncomfortable.

Why is this supposed to be a big deal? What's the hangup with nakedness in a situation where being naked is perfectly appropriate, i.e. in the bathtub?

 

Many of us don't think adults should be naked with children.   And even those who think it's okay, many think 4 years old is pushing it.   A 4 year old thinks a lot of things are "Ok" and it doesn't make them "Ok".

 

Beyond all that the OP is uncomfortable with HER child doing this with grandma, and MIL freaked out at her.   I think that is what everyone is really taking issue with.

[Ravin]

If you said no, Grandma should do what you say, you're the parent.

 

For me, it would seem weird unless there was some good reason--4 year old had an accident or vomited all over both of them or something, and it was quicker/easier to just wash both at once, but in that case a shower would make more sense.

 

There is not enough room for an adult and a 4 year old in a regular American bathtub, so that would make it impractical. If this "bathing" is actually hanging out in a (not too hot) hot tub, I wouldn't see much of a problem with it.

 

Finally, I don't see any problem with communal bathing in appropriate facilities per se, but the context of family culture of whether that's normal is a factor. My kids have grown up around my tendency to not worry about nudity in front of them around bathing as well as DH's and GF's self-consciousness of same. Was your MIL like this when your DH was young? If so I would be more likely to just shrug and decide that was MIL being MIL as far as how much of a "red flag" it is, but refer back to my first sentence--you are the parent and the real red flag is not respecting boundaries you set. 

[Julie Smith]

I haven’t read even half of the posts.

 

I would have no problem with it, as long as kid is fine with it.

[Tanaqui]

I don't think it's particularly inappropriate or strange - but I do think that if Mom or Dad have a problem with it (or the kid), it shouldn't happen. Commenting on this certainly shouldn't trigger tantrums about being treated like a pedophile. The appropriate response was "Okay, got it". That last is a huge issue, and in and of itself would be enough for me to consider limiting contact with this person and putting an end to unsupervised visits.

[regentrude]

Many of us don't think adults should be naked with children.  

 

I see this, but do not understand why. It is a weird cultural construct that makes nudity this hugely taboo thing in this country.

[J-rap]

I think it's a little strange, unless it's in her culture to do that perhaps?  But she should absolutely abide by your wishes and should have politely stopped the minute you suggested it.

 

If she really is a narcissistic type person, I'd probably be limiting the time my child spent with her, regardless.  Especially without me around.

[hornblower]

I don't see any problem with that, as long as the child is not uncomfortable.

Why is this supposed to be a big deal? What's the hangup with nakedness in a situation where being naked is perfectly appropriate, i.e. in the bathtub?

 

^^ Yup. 

 

would not be an issue here. 

[Bootsie]

I know I bathed with my grandmother when I was a preschooler (and i was not abused).  That was in the 1960's and my grandmother was an older grandmother, which meant she was a young adult during the Great Depression.  Much of her life she had lived where hot water was a resource to be conserved.  So, I think communal bathing was second nature to her.

 

Also, in some cultures intergenerational bathing is customary.  For example, if you go to a Korean bath, you will find a ritual of grandmother, mother, daughter, washing each other.  

[MedicMom]

 

^^ Yup.

 

would not be an issue here.

Would not be an issue here either. I wouldn't blink twice about it. But grandparents should respect parents' wishes, full stop.

[Zebra]

I see this, but do not understand why. It is a weird cultural construct that makes nudity this hugely taboo thing in this country.

 

I think it's a weird cultural construct when nudity is not a huge taboo.

 

We have different beliefs, as people do.    

[momacacia]

Go with your gut. Mama instincts are there for a reason...listen to them!!!

[bibiche]

C'mon, regentrude! Didn't you know that in America people are born wearing clothes?! ;)

[Bluegoat]

I think it's a weird cultural construct when nudity is not a huge taboo.

 

We have different beliefs, as people do.    

 

I don't know that there are actually many cultures where same-sex nudity is a taboo.  Plenty where opposite sex nudity is, which isn't odd to me. 

 

But I think same-sex nudity has been super common in most cultures for purely practical reasons - until pretty recently, people didn't have that level of privacy from each other.  

 

Even in North America, within my lifetime I've seen people become much more uncomfortable with same-sex nudity in places like public showers, change rooms, saunas, or with nudity in kids at places like the beach.  So that's since the early 70's. (And yet weirdly, there is a lot more in your face sexualized nudity, generally involving young women.)

[SKL]

Sounds very strange to me for an American 4yo.  What is their heritage?

[dsmith]

i think it's weird, but MIL did this with her female grandchildren until they were 6 or 7. It was occasional, we could hear them playing around in the tub and their mother was ok with it. She never did it with my son or her other grandson. Not respecting your wishes is the real hill to die on for me. Thankfully my MIL was very good about that, although not so much with her daughter's kids when it comes to sweets, lol. My mother would never have ever considered bathing with us as kids or with her grandchildren. She would have thought it bizarre.  

[SKL]

As for how to put a stop to it - Grandma is no longer in charge of child's bath time.  Child bathes at a time when Grandma is not there and you avoid situations where Grandma feels like the child absolutely needs a bath at her house.

[SKL]

PS I do not think your MIL is a pedophile.  But I agree that in our culture, grandparents don't go naked in front of their 4yo grandchildren.  If she is crossing that boundary (and it isn't a norm in her culture), it makes me wonder what else is going on / what next.

[Zebra]

I don't know that there are actually many cultures where same-sex nudity is a taboo.  Plenty where opposite sex nudity is, which isn't odd to me. 

 

But I think same-sex nudity has been super common in most cultures for purely practical reasons - until pretty recently, people didn't have that level of privacy from each other.  

 

Even in North America, within my lifetime I've seen people become much more uncomfortable with same-sex nudity in places like public showers, change rooms, saunas, or with nudity in kids at places like the beach.  So that's since the early 70's. (And yet weirdly, there is a lot more in your face sexualized nudity, generally involving young women.)

 

I'm not talking about same sex nudity.   I am talking about grandma taking a bath with the grandchild.

 

I'm sure I wasn't clear enough.

 

I understand other people take baths with their kids.  Fine.  I'm not going to do it, and I won't judge you, particularly if you don't ask me.   I do think it's weird when you bathe with a child that is not yours.

 

Locker rooms, what people do in other countries, that is not what I am talking about.   It's also one thing to be changing in a locker room, and another thing to be enjoying a nice long bath together.  

 

And again, OP doesn't like it and is allowed to not like it.   

[regentrude]

I think it's a weird cultural construct when nudity is not a huge taboo.

 

We have different beliefs, as people do.    

 

It is the taboos that are a cultural construct, not their non-existence. Nudity does not have inherent moral connotations unless humans choose to construct them.

I am still not understanding the reasoning (or belief) behind it.

[Elizabeth86]

C'mon, regentrude! Didn't you know that in America people are born wearing clothes?! ;)

That reminds me, my 4 year old is horrified the new baby will be born naked and that he was. He told me I should have put drawers in my belly for baby clothes. :lol:

[KungFuPanda]

I don't see any problem with that, as long as the child is not uncomfortable.

Why is this supposed to be a big deal? What's the hangup with nakedness in a situation where being naked is perfectly appropriate, i.e. in the bathtub?

Americans are super hung up on nudity. It's just a cultural thing. Most Americans would rather their kid see someone shot on TV than see boobs on TV. It is what it is.

[maize]

Some places this is quite normal (family bathing in Japan for example) and in some families it would be normal. I don't get the "this is always and automatically wrong" response, other than that Americans sexualize everything and are super uncomfortable with human nakedness in other contexts.

 

But if it is uncomfortable to you then grandma needs to honor that boundary.

[SKL]

I am not hung up on same-sex nudity in the locker room etc.  In those cases you culturally learn to NOT LOOK (or not notice), and things are set up so you don't have to.  But if you're 4yo and face to face with naked granny, where are you supposed to look?  So it's not comparable IMO.

 

It's one thing to theorize about how cultures could theoretically allow this and it would be no big deal.  It's another thing to have a person who is not in that theoretical culture actually get nekkid and get in a tub with someone else'e 4yo.  Those of you who are confused about this cultural oddity of being clothed around other people's 4yos, would YOU actually strip and get in the tub with your 4yo granddaughter / niece / neighbor while living in the actual culture you live in?  I mean if it is part of your actual culture, then fine, but I don't get the impression that's the case in the OP.

[Alessandra]

Another thing to consider is people's reaction if they hear about this. I presume you don't want someone calling CPS. But, on ythe other hand, you don't want to tell kids that it's a secret.

[AnnE-girl]

The only thing that matters here is that the actual parent of the child is uncomfortable with it. The grandmother's reaction to the boundary set by the parent shows that she shouldn't have any alone time with the kids.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd feel far less squicked out if it were a shower.  I mean I don't feel comfortable being naked with pretty much anyone, but that's my hangup.  So that part aside (cuz obviously that part doesn't bother her), I just think it's pretty gross to take a bath with multiple people cuz you are all sitting in that water together....just yuck.  I don't think I'm a germaphobe either.  But ewww..  Now a shower would be less concerning to me.

 

But just...WHY.  Why would anyone feel the need to do that? 

 

 

[MamaBearTeacher]

It's not just nudity, it'stouching while nude. There would've be room for them both in the tub without touching really unless grandma took efforts to squish herself up on one side.

[Epicurean]

To quickly answer some questions... She didn't ask permission, she did it several times before we found out, and has done it at least twice since we asked her to stop.

 

She doesn't really watch DD at bath time (typically the times are around 1 - 7 pm, DD goes to bed at 8:30 and we usually bathe her at 8). The baths have just happened at random times in the afternoon.

 

Grandma doesn't come from a particular culture where this is practiced, except that she's in her seventies and maybe that was done when she was a kid.

 

FIL doesn't think it's weird, but he's completely in MIL's corner on just about everything.

 

I think supervised visits are going to have to be a must. I was afraid my own history was making me too sensitive to this issue, but judging from the responses, it really is atypical behavior and her disregard for our wishes means we can't put our trust in her.

[Elizabeth86]

Americans are super hung up on nudity. It's just a cultural thing. Most Americans would rather their kid see someone shot on TV than see boobs on TV. It is what it is.

You are right Americans are hung up on nudity. Whats funny for me personally is I am ULTRA private, but I am super comfortable with my nudity in front of the kids and with them being naked around each other. I think it bothers dh, but I have breastfed for 6 years now. My boobs are just always out ya know? I read this funny on pinterest it said:

 

daughter: mom your invading my personal space.

 

mom: you came out of my personal space

 

With my kids they just feel like so a part of me it isnt creepy. The thought of my mil naked with my kids creeps me out BAD! So I would think a thing about a woman whipping a boob out to feed her kid, but my mil doing something close and personal isnt my style and the nudity adds to it.

[Elizabeth86]

To quickly answer some questions... She didn't ask permission, she did it several times before we found out, and has done it at least twice since we asked her to stop.

 

She doesn't really watch DD at bath time (typically the times are around 1 - 7 pm, DD goes to bed at 8:30 and we usually bathe her at 8). The baths have just happened at random times in the afternoon.

 

Grandma doesn't come from a particular culture where this is practiced, except that she's in her seventies and maybe that was done when she was a kid.

 

FIL doesn't think it's weird, but he's completely in MIL's corner on just about everything.

 

I think supervised visits are going to have to be a must. I was afraid my own history was making me too sensitive to this issue, but judging from the responses, it really is atypical behavior and her disregard for our wishes means we can't put our trust in her.

Thanks for clearing it up a bit. My mom and mil are in their 70s and both of then bathed with their small kids. We all agree thats normal, but I know neither of them would do this with grandkids..

 

Sorry Im hung up on this post. Just when I think Im dealing with crazies.

[Lady Florida.]

I don't think it's common but I wouldn't think it's weird unless there's already a reason to suspect something of the grandmother.

 

I do however, think grandparents need to respect parents' wishes and boundaries. As grandparents ourselves, dh and I would never go against dss and ddil's wishes. Nor would we try to encourage them to give in to us over something. We give advice only when asked and we leave the parenting to the parents.

[Jean in Newcastle]

To quickly answer some questions... She didn't ask permission, she did it several times before we found out, and has done it at least twice since we asked her to stop.

 

She doesn't really watch DD at bath time (typically the times are around 1 - 7 pm, DD goes to bed at 8:30 and we usually bathe her at 8). The baths have just happened at random times in the afternoon.

 

Grandma doesn't come from a particular culture where this is practiced, except that she's in her seventies and maybe that was done when she was a kid.

 

FIL doesn't think it's weird, but he's completely in MIL's corner on just about everything.

 

I think supervised visits are going to have to be a must. I was afraid my own history was making me too sensitive to this issue, but judging from the responses, it really is atypical behavior and her disregard for our wishes means we can't put our trust in her.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were normal bathtime and Gma was doing it as a way of accomplishing bathtime.  But the randomness of it seems weird - unless it were super hot and it was a way to cool down.  And of course, she's ignored the parents asking her to stop.

 

My biggest problem with it in general is that Gma is 70 and you said had health issues.  Which I would suppose would make falls something to watch out for.  What happens if she slips while getting into the bath?  What if she falls on top of the 4 year old?  What if the 4 year old is fine but can't help Gma or doesn't know how to summon help? 

[Elizabeth86]

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were normal bathtime and Gma was doing it as a way of accomplishing bathtime. But the randomness of it seems weird - unless it were super hot and it was a way to cool down. And of course, she's ignored the parents asking her to stop.

 

My biggest problem with it in general is that Gma is 70 and you said had health issues. Which I would suppose would make falls something to watch out for. What happens if she slips while getting into the bath? What if she falls on top of the 4 year old? What if the 4 year old is fine but can't help Gma or doesn't know how to summon help?

your right the timing does make it more off.

[fairfarmhand]

It doesn't matter if I think it's weird.. you told her not to do it and she responded in a way that is WAY out of line!

 

She sounds untrustworthy at best. I'd be very willing to fight about something like that.

 

And yes, it's super weird ftr. Some families do that, but yours clearly does not, so it seems very random and *not at all* anything she should have protective feelings about.

, Over the comfort of her son and dil about leaving her gd alone with her.

 

Who even wants to sit in a tiny little tub with a kid that big? It's not like that giant tub they all get in in Totoro.

 

So weird!

 

THis!

[sweet2ndchance]

I have no problem with nudity within our own immediate family. My kids have no desire to see their step dad naked and nor does he have any desire to see his step kids naked and I think that in a blended family situation like ours, that is a perfectly acceptable boundary to have. There is just a different family dynamic when the relationship is a step parent / step child and not a biological parent / child.  

 

I have no problem with nudity in other cultures. Or art. Or seeing a breastfeeding mom in public. Or other people's fashion choices. It is what it is. Everyone is entitled to their own comfort level when it comes to how much bare skin is tolerable and they can even have different comfort levels depending on the situation. I don't have any problem with other people have more or less conservative comfort levels with nudity than me. I do take issue with other people imposing their cultural beliefs and personal comfort levels on me and my children, especially if I have informed them of my boundary and they refuse to respect it.

 

My issue in this situation is that this mother's culture is not one that embraces nudity. This mother is uncomfortable with her mother-in-law bathing with her 4yo. This mother expressed the concern to her MIL about bathing with her daughter and the MIL not only disrespected her cultural boundary but admitted that she knew that this practice could be considered taboo in the modern culture that her grand daughter is living in by suggesting that the mother was treating her like a pedophile.

 

If granddaughter walked in on grandma in the bathroom and grandma didn't immediately try to hide behind a towel but just went about her business as usual, that would be one thing. This grandma completely blew off her son and dil's cultural beliefs because they did not match her own cultural beliefs. That's not ok in my opinion.

[Arcadia]

She is a textbook narcissist, but DH doesn't want to cut off contact because she is in her seventies and has a lot of health problems.

Your husband wanting to stay in contact doesn’t mean you and your children have to stay in contact. My husband’s very elderly grandma is ailing so he is staying in contact without having to be actively involved.

 

My in-laws and I conflict on privacy issues so when they visit, my husband does the chaperoning everywhere and we get to stay home. Some of his aunts are okay and we spent time with them instead.

 

A fit grandma with a under 2 in the tub would still be unusual to me but not weird. Four year olds can be supervised from the tub side so that would be weird unless it is family culture but it apparently is not for your husband’s side of the family.

[Lady Florida.]

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were normal bathtime and Gma was doing it as a way of accomplishing bathtime.  But the randomness of it seems weird - unless it were super hot and it was a way to cool down.  And of course, she's ignored the parents asking her to stop.

 

 

 

I agree that the timing is weird, and that she's ignored requests to stop is a problem.

 

Yes, it can be a way to get the littles in the tub for bathtime but apparently these weren't regular bathtimes, nor it seems, did the dd get dirty playing outside in the middle of the day. As for cooling off when it's hot my brother and I used to get in the tub together to cool off when we were little, but we wore our swimsuits. In fact, wearing them made us feel more like we were swimming in a pool than a bathtub. 

[GoodGrief]

The way this is playing out is concerning. Grandma does not need to be bathing the kid, and certainly not after you expressed a desire for her to stop.

 

Personally, I think it would be MORE difficult to help a 4 year old bathe while IN the tub with her than from outside the tub. That's some close quarters there!

[SparklyUnicorn]

Americans are super hung up on nudity. It's just a cultural thing. Most Americans would rather their kid see someone shot on TV than see boobs on TV. It is what it is.

 

I'm hung up...yeppers....but I'd much rather my kids see boobs than shootings. 

[Guest]

I just had another thought. If she's in her 70s and caring for her maybe she feels she can't safely bath her by learning over the side or she can't bend over to help if help is needed. Maybe she doesn't want to admit to that level of physical limitation (some oldies are funny about this stuff). Still doesn't make it ok, either way she sounds like someone who shouldn't be caring for the child but might make sense from that viewpoint.

If this were true, she could put on a bathing suit, which is what most people do if they need to be physically in a shower or tub with anything but a very young child. I remember sometimes putting on a bathing suit to bathe littles in "the big tub" - a jacuzzi tub, because it was an efficient way to get little kids bathed and I couldn't lean over the big tub.

[thessa516]

I don't see any problem with that, as long as the child is not uncomfortable.

Why is this supposed to be a big deal? What's the hangup with nakedness in a situation where being naked is perfectly appropriate, i.e. in the bathtub?

 

I don't think it's the nudity that people are reacting to. For me, it centers around the act of touching a child and washing of the body, including private areas. We teach our children about not letting people touch their private areas, even family members. (1/3 of sexually abused children are abused by a family member). Granny could be the most innocent, sweetest thing, but don't place children in those situations in the first place if you can avoid it.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not talking about same sex nudity.   I am talking about grandma taking a bath with the grandchild.

 

I'm sure I wasn't clear enough.

 

I understand other people take baths with their kids.  Fine.  I'm not going to do it, and I won't judge you, particularly if you don't ask me.   I do think it's weird when you bathe with a child that is not yours.

 

Locker rooms, what people do in other countries, that is not what I am talking about.   It's also one thing to be changing in a locker room, and another thing to be enjoying a nice long bath together.  

 

And again, OP doesn't like it and is allowed to not like it.   

 

I'm including bathing with all those other kinds of nudity.  They are all very common in many cultures.  Private bathing is probably the exception rather than the rule.  Public bathing - not just with kids and grandkids, but people who are not related to you.  

 

If the Op doesn't like it that's fine.  But there is a lot of people in this discussion who seem to think that the thing in itself is a pretty clear universal no no. 

[Bluegoat]

Americans are super hung up on nudity. It's just a cultural thing. Most Americans would rather their kid see someone shot on TV than see boobs on TV. It is what it is.

 

I think this actually illustrates part of the problem though.

 

99% of the boobs kids are likely to see on tv are meant to be sexual.  That is not the kind of public nudity that makes mixed age bathing seem like a good idea.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't think it's the nudity that people are reacting to. For me, it centers around the act of touching a child and washing of the body, including private areas. We teach our children about not letting people touch their private areas, even family members. (1/3 of sexually abused children are abused by a family member). Granny could be the most innocent, sweetest thing, but don't place children in those situations in the first place if you can avoid it.

 

Really?  I do think it's about the nudity.  And probably about the ick factor of sharing bath water. 

 

I assume most 4 year olds can manage washing themselves with direction (or without).  Minus hair...they might need help with that part.  So who says she is actually touching them? 

[thessa516]

Really?  I do think it's about the nudity.  And probably about the ick factor of sharing bath water. 

 

I assume most 4 year olds can manage washing themselves with direction (or without).  Minus hair...they might need help with that part.  So who says she is actually touching them? 

 

You're right. Maybe the 4 year old is washing herself, while the Grandma washes herself. I jumped to a conclusion.

 

I still think it's icky though.

[Pen]

Only read a few replies above.  My thoughts

 

 

Aside from what you decide to do and how -- such as no unsupervised time with granny, perhaps, or at least not long enough swaths for a bath, I think you need more info.

 

1) what was the case for bathtimes when your dh was a child?  What was her cultural understanding about such things?

2) why did granny bathe dd?  DD may have info like that she got all dirty from doing _______ , or was cold, or hot, or _________  Or granny could believe that children should be bathed before a time that a dh returns home from work so that he is greeted by shiny clean dc, or even be wanting to do you a favor of presenting you with a clean child, and really hurt that you were upset rather than appreciative -- doesn't mean you have to go along with it, but what is behind it seems importabt

3) exactly what happened during bath (leaving out your own feelings reaction), was there any touching that would cause a CPS concern? (there are books for dc about appropriate or inappropriate touch--at least one of which I saw gives an example of a child and grandpa naked in shower together just to get clean, including grandpa helping to clean the child, as on the okay side, btw)

4) how does your dd feel about it

[freesia]

It doesn't really matter what we think--cultures have different opinions on communal bathing.  However, Grandma should respect your boundaries.  If you don't want it, the answer is no, with no guilt attached. You get to decide what happens with your kid.  Period.

[AnnE-girl]

I'm including bathing with all those other kinds of nudity. They are all very common in many cultures. Private bathing is probably the exception rather than the rule. Public bathing - not just with kids and grandkids, but people who are not related to you.

 

If the Op doesn't like it that's fine. But there is a lot of people in this discussion who seem to think that the thing in itself is a pretty clear universal no no.

But even with cultural differences, these aren't necessary baths. This isn't grandma trying to get herself and little girl ready during an extended overnight stay. The parents would be bathing her a few hours later as part of her usual bedtime routine after the visit was over. That the grandma did this just because, without telling the parents, and then continued to do it after they found out and objected, raises all sorts of red flags. Not necessarily as se*ual abuse, but as an untrustworthy caregiver for the granddaughter overall.

[Zebra]

Given then new information you posted, this isn't even about the bath.   It's about the fact that you asked her NOT to do it, and she's done it twice more.   I can't come up with an acceptable excuse for grandma at this point.

 

It seems like grandma is either losing it mentally or trying to tick you off/subvert you.   Neither scenario makes me think she should be alone with your child.   

 

I think the biggest problem you have right now is with DH.   You two need to be on the same page about this.   Then you can deal with grandma.