s/o camp: If you do overnight camp...

[Janie Grace]

How did you come to the place of feeling peaceful about it? I loved my little Christian overnight camp as a kid (archery, horseback riding, etc). But for whatever reason, I have a really hard time with thinking of sending my kids to camp (overnight, of any kind). It seems like such a big risk for s*xual abuse (from counselors or other campers). Sharing sleeping quarters, no family to tell right away if something happened, etc. I was not molested as a child so I don't know why this is such a fear. I did learn all about "the bases" from another camper (and was disturbed/shocked) but that's about it.

 

If you do overnight camp, is this just not something you worry about? Is it because you feel your kids are adequately trained to deflect it? Because your camp has a rigorous background check in place (or some other screening that gives you peace)? Because you're just not overly worried about this kind of thing in general?

 

I'd love to give my kids the lovely experiences I had as a camper. I just wish I could get past this fear.

[SKL]

I honestly don't worry about this.  My kid who is independent enough to go to overnight camps "alone" is also the type of person to resist and speak up if anyone tries anything.  My other kid, I'm not sure, but at this point I'm not sending her without her sister (for other reasons).  With her sister there, I have no worries as they look out for each other.

 

So in your shoes, I'd ask myself:  is this child likely to self-advocate and stand up for herself?  Or is she likely to internalize and clam up about things that may happen to her?  If the latter, I'd work on that before I'd send her off "alone."  Not that I believe that camps are full of predators, but things do happen.

[creekland]

I think for me I am just not overly worried.  My guys started overnight camping at age 8 and loved it.  We have always had decent lines of communication, so if anything had gone wrong, I feel certain I'd have known about it.

 

To me, I know life itself is a risk, but our whole family has the motto that we'd rather truly live and die young than grow into old age and have done absolutely nothing.  We travel (more than just tourism), we scuba, we ride horses, my boys climbed trees and shot guns, etc.  Overnight camp is hardly riskier than other things we do.  My guys have gone to "dangerous" third world countries without us (parents) starting at age 13.

[mommyoffive]

I have worked at camps and there was abuse like that at each one. 

 

Plus there is a lot of things as a parent I wouldn't be ok with safety wise. 

 

 

 

That being said, I loved being at camp.

 

How about family camp?

[creekland]

I have worked at camps and there was abuse like that at each one. 

 

Interesting.  I worked at two camps during some high school and college summers and there wasn't abuse at either of them.  There were a lot of kids having a good time though!

[mommyoffive]

Interesting.  I worked at two camps during some high school and college summers and there wasn't abuse at either of them.  There were a lot of kids having a good time though!

 

 

I am not saying it happens everywhere, but it did at the 2 that I worked at.  Not just one person too.  And these were camps that were in totally different parts of the country.  

[creekland]

I am not saying it happens everywhere, but it did at the 2 that I worked at.  Not just one person too.  And these were camps that were in totally different parts of the country.  

 

I trust you reported it and stopped it...

 

At the camps I worked at, there was never one-on-one time between any camper and staff.  There were always more kids and/or more staff.  It was actually tough to get alone time period!

[SebastianCat]

I went to summer camp when I was growing up, and it was a good experience overall.   I was extremely homesick, but always got over the homesickness about halfway through the first week, then had a blast the rest of the time (I'm pretty sure I went for 2 weeks each time).   

 

We didn't really have a camp for my kids that we knew and trusted until they were in middle school, and they've been to our church's middle school camp each year since 6th grade (and this year will be the first high school camp for DS).    The church group takes over the entire campground while they are there and I know the background checks and training that each leader has been through, so I trust the process and the leadership.   Is it perfect?   No.   Does it mean that bad things won't ever happen?   No.   But the challenges (like when DS left his wallet out the first year, and it got stolen) have been character building.   

 

If you are so uneasy about sending your kids to camp, I would consider volunteering to go as a leader, if that's an option.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I have never sent my kids to an overnight camp, but I admit I think I'd worry to death over it.  Not so much for that reason, but just...mmm no.  Not so much anymore with the 15 year old because he has a really good head on his shoulders.  But the 11 year old...no I don't trust it.

 

 

[mommyoffive]

I trust you reported it and stopped it...

 

At the camps I worked at, there was never one-on-one time between any camper and staff.  There were always more kids and/or more staff.  It was actually tough to get alone time period!

 

It wasn't something I saw, but rather the owners explaining why some of the staff was let go. 

 

At both camps it was very easy to be alone with a camper. 

[marbel]

We sent our kids with an organization we trusted.  (It was through a science museum we went to frequently. We also went to family camps with them.) The kids had been to day camps the year prior. Their literature was very clear about procedures to keep kids safe - 2-deep supervision, no kids left alone ever, etc.  

 

I'm a worrier and I was worried till they got on the bus.  Then <poof!> I was able to relax right away.  Kinda weird given my propensity for worry and catastrophizing. Maybe it was because if something happened it was on someone else's watch.  :-)  I don't know.   Sending kids away alone for the first time is a bit of a leap of faith.   

 

BTW this was a camp specifically for first-time campers.  It was only 3 nights.  There was extra supervision.  Once my kids got on the bus, they rarely saw each other - they were in different groups.  They had a great time.   

 

Funny, a couple of people at church were more worried my kids would be exposed to the E word (evolution!) than that they'd be abused.  But camps run by religious organizations are not immune.  

 

[creekland]

It wasn't something I saw, but rather the owners explaining why some of the staff was let go. 

 

At both camps it was very easy to be alone with a camper. 

 

And see, IMO, this is not a thing where the owners should have just let staff go.   :cursing:   When a crime has been committed (or attempted), it should be dealt with.  When that happens, there are usually fewer problems.  

 

There was a local case of a perp from a church leadership group abusing kids here (not at camps though - he'd meet individually to take kids "fishing" and things).  My guys knew him well and had been with him - with others in group events - so it was a shock and we know it happens, but he's also now in jail forever because those who found out didn't just dismiss him.

[mommyoffive]

And see, IMO, this is not a thing where the owners should have just let staff go.   :cursing:   When a crime has been committed (or attempted), it should be dealt with.  When that happens, there are usually fewer problems.  

 

There was a local case of a perp from a church leadership group abusing kids here (not at camps though - he'd meet individually to take kids "fishing" and things).  My guys knew him well and had been with him - with others in group events - so it was a shock and we know it happens, but he's also now in jail forever because those who found out didn't just dismiss him.

 

 

I agree with you.  I have no idea what happened after the fact on that. 

[hellen]

I trust you reported it and stopped it...

 

At the camps I worked at, there was never one-on-one time between any camper and staff. There were always more kids and/or more staff. It was actually tough to get alone time period!

Sexual assault can unfortunately happen around others.

[Selkie]

And see, IMO, this is not a thing where the owners should have just let staff go.   :cursing:   When a crime has been committed (or attempted), it should be dealt with.  When that happens, there are usually fewer problems.  

 

There was a local case of a perp from a church leadership group abusing kids here (not at camps though - he'd meet individually to take kids "fishing" and things).  My guys knew him well and had been with him - with others in group events - so it was a shock and we know it happens, but he's also now in jail forever because those who found out didn't just dismiss him.

 

 

I don't mean to derail the conversation, but I am curious about this. Did he really get life in prison?

 

If so, I'm impressed. Unfortunately, that is not the norm, at least where I live. Here, child molesters will typically only serve a few years. 

[DawnM]

It wasn't something I saw, but rather the owners explaining why some of the staff was let go. 

 

At both camps it was very easy to be alone with a camper. 

 

 

At the camps I have helped with and the boy scout camps the boys have attended, there is no one on one contact, ever.

[MamaBearTeacher]

I think you are realistic to worry about this.  Still, I think bad abuse is more likely to happen in a more secluded way, like with a babysitter.

 

I went to a really awful camp as a child.  The counsellors were really really mean and ignored the campers.  I had a counsellor who who slept in the bunk under me and she smoked in bed and I asked her not to and she kicked me.  The campers were sexually precocious and many prepubescent girls were wearing large bras stuffed with several pairs of socks.  I think relationships sometimes happened between 13-year old girls and 16-year old male counsellors.  

 

The 20-year old swim instructor was a complete pervert and asked a group of 11-12 year old girls to perform artificial respiration on him.  I asked if I could do it on the dummy (large doll) instead and he said he would fail me if I did not do it on him.  I refused but all the other girls did it.  My friend told me later that I was stupid and that I should just have done it and gotten it over with so that I could pass.  During tennis lessons the instructor did not teach at all but just made out with her boyfriend and every once in a while she would take a breath and yell out that we sucked at tennis.  

 

There were dead flies in the salad and grilled cheese.  The camp had lots of boats and activities and was an expensive camp.  I think there are good camps out there with good staff where kids have an amazing time.  Really look into the camp.

[MinivanMom]

Most camps conduct background checks and do some form of 2-deep leadership so that kids are never in a one-on-one situation. Still, I didn't let my older kids go away to overnight camp until they were 12 yrs old and I felt that they were mature enough and confident enough to handle any situations that might arise. I also ask a lot of questions about safety procedures at any camp we are considering, and I wouldn't let my kids attend one where anything in the policies (or in the camp's responses to my questions) made me feel uncomfortable or worried.

 

I am letting our 9-yr-old daughter go to Girl Scout camp this summer. She isn't a GS, so she'll be attending camp on her own with the camp's leaders & counselors versus with a troop where she knows everyone. I'm not sure it's something I would have done with my older kids, but I guess I've mellowed a little, because I don't feel worried at all. She's very confident and assertive (probably my most assertive child), and the Girl Scout Camp has an all-female staff with 2-deep leadership. I do feel that she is safer in an all-female environment.

[lauraw4321]

My 9 year old will likely be going to GS camp this summer.  She's going with friends, and I've been to the camp, and I feel confident in GS's ability to keep her safe.  But it doesn't stop me from kind of panicking about it. Even though it's low-risk.  Even though it's an important step for her to take for her own development. 

[Bootsie]

My children attended overnight camp.  I was more concerned about other risks--such as were the swimming activities well supervised.  I knew some of the college students who were counselors at the camp my children attended and knew how much training they received (I also knew of some camps where counselors received little training).  

 

There is a chance of sexual assault, but I think it is relatively low (and can happen at a day camp, at home by a cousin, etc.)  I focus on all of the positives that come from camp, or other activities, and I think these far outweigh the small chance of sexual assault.  I do not want my children to grow up fearful of the world.  I do not want them to miss out on being outdoors, experiencing new activities, learning independence, etc.  The risk may not be as obvious, but I think the health and emotional risks associated with avoiding activities where there is some remote possibility of sexual assault (or kidnapping, etc.) are high.

[Alice]

I've never really worried about sexual abuse at camp. My kids do two kinds of camp. One is a typical camp that is Christian in nature but not associated with a specific church. The other is Boy Scouts. Both never have situations where kids are one-on-one with counselors or adults. They have both loved camp. It's a highlight of their summers. I did know people who had gone to the camps before we went there so that was good just to know that they liked it...but I was thinking more about overall enjoyment level and safety rather than that specific issue. 

 

I do worry about some stuff...will they take their meds if they need them, will they get hurt, would they be homesick their first year...but overall camp has been fabulous. They don't do things the way they would at home. I know they don't shower enough or brush their teeth enough. Ds's eczema was horrible when he got home because he never wanted to go get the meds I had sent with him. (I think he will go this year because he regretted that decision.) They usually don't get enough sleep or eat balanced meals. They probably do things that if I saw them I would think were dangerous. They figure things out though and learn from their mistakes. I have felt like the positives far outweigh the risks. 

[RootAnn]

Well, I miss my kids while they are gone & I worry about them in general. I can't say I had this specific worry ever.

 

My older two girls, in general, don't like going to camp. I'm trying to convince dd#3 to go to camp for a week this summer. I offered to send ds#1 & ds#2 at the same time. She's just not thrilled with the idea. :confused1:  The older two have poisoned her that camp is not fun. Makes me worried that they won't want to leave home when it is time to go to college.  :lol:  I think mine are just used to being able to do what they want when they want. Having someone else plan out their every moment (crafts, canoeing, swimming, etc.) is not their idea of fun. I also have some early-to-bed types who won't want to be out doing campfires or late night hikes; they'd rather be asleep.

[alisoncooks]

My kids have been going to overnight camp since they were small. 2-3 nights starting at 1st grade, week long camp starting as rising 3rd graders. This is the same camp I went to as a child (very small and I know the current director personally).

 

I try not too worry, though it was hard the first few years. I told my kids some basic guidelines: stay with the group, never go off anywhere alone with a counselor. That sort of thing. When they were little, I also gave them very specific directions for taking care of their belongings.

[Spryte]

My oldest went to the amazing camp that I attended as a child. We both had a good experience. I worried about many things, but not molestation.

 

DS has allergies such that he can't go to that camp. I hope DD will go when she's older.

[Amy in NH]

4-H has strict risk management protocols in place for anyone working with youth and for youth in groups, extensive annual criminal background checks, etc. I also don't send my kids to overnight camp until they are old enough to know what's what, fight back, and speak up. This year will be youngest's first time at sleep-away camp, and I'm not worried at all.

[mamaraby]

I sent ds for the first time when he was 10 and dd to the same camp when she was 8. Dd2 will go when she's 8 too. I'm not worried at all. I was nervous that they would handle the separation ok (camp is 5 hours away from home) and not be too lonely. My kids have always been quick to say goodbye (why are you still here, mom?!?) and very sad to leave at the end of the week.

 

Molestation was never on my list of worries.

[madteaparty]

Of all the things, I don't worry about this. I worry someone might sneak him a soda, god forbid.

Edited March 8, 2017 by madteaparty

[wintermom]

How did you come to the place of feeling peaceful about it? I loved my little Christian overnight camp as a kid (archery, horseback riding, etc). But for whatever reason, I have a really hard time with thinking of sending my kids to camp (overnight, of any kind). It seems like such a big risk for s*xual abuse (from counselors or other campers). Sharing sleeping quarters, no family to tell right away if something happened, etc. I was not molested as a child so I don't know why this is such a fear. I did learn all about "the bases" from another camper (and was disturbed/shocked) but that's about it.

 

If you do overnight camp, is this just not something you worry about? Is it because you feel your kids are adequately trained to deflect it? Because your camp has a rigorous background check in place (or some other screening that gives you peace)? Because you're just not overly worried about this kind of thing in general?

 

I'd love to give my kids the lovely experiences I had as a camper. I just wish I could get past this fear.

 

What experiences in particular do you want your dc to have from a sleep-away camp; the sleeping away part, the archery, the riding, or ALL of it? Why not just do a day camp, and go overnight camping as a family. Then you have a lot more control over things.

 

Or a family camp might be a great option. 

 

Personally, I think the sleeping away part is adding so many additional factors into the equation of the camp's specific activities (i.e., riding, archery), plus hours of extra time to fill, that it takes away from those things the kids go to the camp for in the first place. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by wintermom

[abba12]

I think that kids are far more likely to be molested at by a relative, family friend, or somewhere like church than they are at a camp or other alone activity. Most abuse occurs from relatives and family friends or people well known to the family. I could prevent my kids from ever sleeping at a camp or at anyone elses house, just to find they're abused by an uncle or something. I know kids who had protective parents who trusted the wrong people and ended up in exactly this situation, never allowed to do things because of the 'risks' and then abused by a relative. I also come from a history of severe abuse myself, that avoiding summer camp and sleepovers would not have protected me from. 

 

So for my family, I don't focus on prevention. Maybe that sounds strange, but I accept that I can't fully protect my kids. Short of isolating them completely, they will be around people, increasingly as they age alone with people, and sometimes the most trustworthy people turn out to be the dangerous ones. Being overprotective about one risk doesn't lessen the others, and only means they miss out on potentially wonderful opportunities. 

 

Instead, we focus on coping, escaping, and recovery. We talk about what to do if it ever happened, we pre-empt the guilt and shame feelings by talking about what it means and how it's never their fault, we talk about who to tell and when and how. I try to build them up as people with the confidence and the attitude that I wish i'd had when I was a victim. We hear of the kids broken by sexual abuse, because it is horrific, but there's actually plenty of people out there who have been assaulted and, while it's a bad memory, they aren't as deeply affected by it as others. Not because they bottle it up, but simply because they are confident, they know themselves, and they can deal with it and move on in a healthy way and it doesn't cut them as deeply because they have support systems and because they have a certain personality. So i spend my time worrying about raising those sorts of people, and teaching them what to do if it ever happened, rather than trying to prevent it and possibly leave them vulnerable if abuse came from an unexpected source. 

 

YMMV of course. My own abuse history and mental health issues facilitate this sort of conversation easily and make me a very realist type person. Imagining my kids hurt or abused is not the worst thing I can imagine. I've been there and, it's just not. Leaving them without the skills to recover is the worst thing I could possibly imagine for my family after my own experiences. The pain I went through afterwards because of a lack of help, support, skills and knowledge hurt me far, far worse than the actual abuse did. 

[IfIOnly]

Does anyone have statistics regarding camp situations and child sexual abuse? This website groups camp counselors in the category of molesters who are known and trusted by children. http://www.childsafeeducation.com/statistics.html Confusing.

 

That said, my children are going to camp this year. The adults are never alone with the children, meaning there are always two adults present with the children. It's an organization I trust with a solid and thorough child protection policy. DH was actually going to volunteer during my kid's stay too, but he had something else come up, so that isn't happening now.

[2squared]

My older kids go to overnight events/camps with their sports teams. Giving them cell phones with texting capabilities helps ease all of our concerns, and has been very helpful.

[emmaluv+2more]

My kids have been going to overnight camp since they were small. 2-3 nights starting at 1st grade, week long camp starting as rising 3rd graders. This is the same camp I went to as a child (very small and I know the current director personally).

 

I try not too worry, though it was hard the first few years. I told my kids some basic guidelines: stay with the group, never go off anywhere alone with a counselor. That sort of thing. When they were little, I also gave them very specific directions for taking care of their belongings.

 

I'm wondering if I know the camp you are speaking of.  I don't know how many camps start overnights at 1st grade, but the one I grew up attending does this: 2 nights 1st-3rd and a full week the summer between 3rd & 4th.  It would be quite a coincidence if we are referring to 2 entirely different places! 

 

I sent my kids (won't be going this summer), but I always went as well as a volunteer.  I'm a worrier by nature, so I knew I would be an absolute wreck sending my kids away for several days without me.

[meena]

In the past our children only went to camps where we went with them. Now that our two older children are teens, we feel it's okay for them to go without us with groups that we have vetted and have found to be trustworthy. All three of our children have martial arts/self-defense training and have been taught about how to handle if someone tries to do something inappropriate. 

 

To the OP: Definitely look into family camp. We've attended one for the past 5 years, and it's been an amazing experience. We get all of the fun camping experiences--campfires, hiking, archery, crafts, etc.-- without some of the worries that a sleep away camp may bring. 

[creekland]

Sexual assault can unfortunately happen around others.

 

Sure it can, but odds are less likely.  Airplanes can fall into houses and kill folks too.  We seriously do not live in fear.  My kids have had a blast at overnight camps - and elsewhere without our presence hovering over them.

[creekland]

I don't mean to derail the conversation, but I am curious about this. Did he really get life in prison?

 

If so, I'm impressed. Unfortunately, that is not the norm, at least where I live. Here, child molesters will typically only serve a few years. 

 

No, not really, but he received significant years that he shouldn't be out for a long time.  If I recall correctly, there were 12 boys involved, 10 from his church, 2 outside it, and oodles upon oodles of pornography.  He admitted guilt.

 

His name should be public record - yes - it is, I just looked, but didn't find his actual sentence, mainly reports about his first arrest.  Maybe they keep the rest classified?  Word got around though.

 

Again, none of the "problems" occurred at the overnight camp he worked at (and my kids attended).  He even admitted that wasn't private enough for him.  The problems occurred elsewhere.

 

Here's a search page if folks care to look at what is public:

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=jeff+crosley+littlestown+pa+&*

 

I think a lot of places have wised up since the old days and work hard at making things safe for kids (and staff).  It's other places I'd worry more TBH.

[creekland]

There is a chance of sexual assault, but I think it is relatively low (and can happen at a day camp, at home by a cousin, etc.)  I focus on all of the positives that come from camp, or other activities, and I think these far outweigh the small chance of sexual assault.  I do not want my children to grow up fearful of the world.  I do not want them to miss out on being outdoors, experiencing new activities, learning independence, etc.  The risk may not be as obvious, but I think the health and emotional risks associated with avoiding activities where there is some remote possibility of sexual assault (or kidnapping, etc.) are high.

 

:iagree:  Our now grown kids are doing super well.  They're respectful of life (wear seatbelts, don't text and drive, etc), but they're not fearful.  Life comes with risks, but there's no way I want those risks - esp when they are low risks (vs texting and driving which comes with high risks) - to run our lives.

[alisoncooks]

I'm wondering if I know the camp you are speaking of.  I don't know how many camps start overnights at 1st grade, but the one I grew up attending does this: 2 nights 1st-3rd and a full week the summer between 3rd & 4th.  It would be quite a coincidence if we are referring to 2 entirely different places! 

 

The camp I'm referring to is in NC.  :)  

(You're welcome to message me if you think we're talking about the same camp.)

[gstharr]

I don't mean to derail the conversation, but I am curious about this. Did he really get life in prison?

 

If so, I'm impressed. Unfortunately, that is not the norm, at least where I live. Here, child molesters will typically only serve a few years. 

 

in many jurisdictions, a life sentence for sexual abuse of minor is not unusual. Typically resulting from prior convictions for prior felonies or similar offenses,that many offenders have. Or, that the charges involved were abuse of minor under 14 , with special allegation of burglary of  inhabited dwelling (tent/cabin)  with intent to commit a felony within.  Burglary is commonly thought of as breaking in, but technically it is the entering of a building, however slightly, with the intent to commit a crime therein.  So, even a counselor walking through the front door of the cabin  with a key, could be hit with the burglary count.  This is a very general overview of the law, and not intended to reflect the law wherever you are.

[SKL]

I think that kids are far more likely to be molested at by a relative, family friend, or somewhere like church than they are at a camp or other alone activity. Most abuse occurs from relatives and family friends or people well known to the family. I could prevent my kids from ever sleeping at a camp or at anyone elses house, just to find they're abused by an uncle or something. I know kids who had protective parents who trusted the wrong people and ended up in exactly this situation, never allowed to do things because of the 'risks' and then abused by a relative. I also come from a history of severe abuse myself, that avoiding summer camp and sleepovers would not have protected me from. 

 

So for my family, I don't focus on prevention. Maybe that sounds strange, but I accept that I can't fully protect my kids. Short of isolating them completely, they will be around people, increasingly as they age alone with people, and sometimes the most trustworthy people turn out to be the dangerous ones. Being overprotective about one risk doesn't lessen the others, and only means they miss out on potentially wonderful opportunities. 

 

Instead, we focus on coping, escaping, and recovery. We talk about what to do if it ever happened, we pre-empt the guilt and shame feelings by talking about what it means and how it's never their fault, we talk about who to tell and when and how. I try to build them up as people with the confidence and the attitude that I wish i'd had when I was a victim. We hear of the kids broken by sexual abuse, because it is horrific, but there's actually plenty of people out there who have been assaulted and, while it's a bad memory, they aren't as deeply affected by it as others. Not because they bottle it up, but simply because they are confident, they know themselves, and they can deal with it and move on in a healthy way and it doesn't cut them as deeply because they have support systems and because they have a certain personality. So i spend my time worrying about raising those sorts of people, and teaching them what to do if it ever happened, rather than trying to prevent it and possibly leave them vulnerable if abuse came from an unexpected source. 

 

YMMV of course. My own abuse history and mental health issues facilitate this sort of conversation easily and make me a very realist type person. Imagining my kids hurt or abused is not the worst thing I can imagine. I've been there and, it's just not. Leaving them without the skills to recover is the worst thing I could possibly imagine for my family after my own experiences. The pain I went through afterwards because of a lack of help, support, skills and knowledge hurt me far, far worse than the actual abuse did. 

 

I agree with this sentiment.  There were several incidents that happened when I was a kid, different people, most of them "trusted."  (And I never went to sleep-away camp; all incidents happened in or near my home.)  Being touched is not that big a deal if you don't internalize and blame yourself.  The one that affected me most is the one that happened when I was 12 and I felt guilty because, in retrospect, had I better understood what was going on, I could have prevented it.  I kept it a secret, possibly allowing the guy to hurt more kids.  I even felt like I had to go back there and be in the perp's presence again, because I could not come up with an explanation for avoiding him.  And because I couldn't talk about it with a decent adult, I developed a bad feeling about male sexuality in general which lasted well into my 20s.

 

And this is not an uncommon experience at all.  I read somewhere that some variant happens to about 50% of females.  It is as likely as not to happen to each of our daughters.  (Of course it happens to many boys as well.)

 

So, I hope that never happens to my kids, BUT if it does, I want them to handle it better than I did mentally.  I want them to tell me about it so I can help them see it for what it is, and choose a forward path accordingly.

Edited March 9, 2017 by SKL

[SKL]

dp sorry

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by SKL

[J-rap]

I loved overnight camps, and so did my kids.  I think if the camp you're considering is well-known with an excellent reputation, you don't need to worry.  I mean, of course there are small risks everywhere, but I do think you can be pretty confident that your children will be safe.  That being said, our kids didn't start going to overnight camps until 7th grade, and I think were pretty savvy by then.  Some people probably thought we were over-protective through 6th grade, but starting in 7th grade we felt they were ready to take off, and we let them.  After that, we let them do a lot of things that probably horrified other parents!  

[Janie Grace]

 Being touched is not that big a deal if you don't internalize and blame yourself.  The one that affected me most is the one that happened when I was 12 and I felt guilty because, in retrospect, had I better understood what was going on, I could have prevented it.  I kept it a secret, possibly allowing the guy to hurt more kids.  I even felt like I had to go back there and be in the perp's presence again, because I could not come up with an explanation for avoiding him.  And because I couldn't talk about it with a decent adult, I developed a bad feeling about male sexuality in general which lasted well into my 20s.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding your first sentence. I know many women who felt that being touched against their will (as a child/teen) was indeed a really big deal... something that impacted them in many ways for a long time. It sounds like it was a big deal for you too, if it created a bad feeling about male sexuality that lasted into your 20's. Are you saying that if you hadn't internalized it, it would have been fine? Confused.

[shawthorne44]

What experiences in particular do you want your dc to have from a sleep-away camp; the sleeping away part, the archery, the riding, or ALL of it? Why not just do a day camp, and go overnight camping as a family. Then you have a lot more control over things.

 

Or a family camp might be a great option. 

 

Personally, I think the sleeping away part is adding so many additional factors into the equation of the camp's specific activities (i.e., riding, archery), plus hours of extra time to fill, that it takes away from those things the kids go to the camp for in the first place. 

 

I'm not Janie Grace, but I think that the sleep-away aspect is an important part of camp.   It was a huge step in my maturing, gaining independence and confidence.  There are lots of things that a kid has to take care of themselves because it is overnight camp.  You have to store your own stuff manage the minor chores required.   Just sleeping away from home was a huge step!  I'd felt like such a big girl.   With a day camp, someone else is handling laundry, etc.  it just isn't the same.   

 

Can you tell I can't wait until DD is old enough for overnight camp?   

[shawthorne44]

in many jurisdictions, a life sentence for sexual abuse of minor is not unusual. Typically resulting from prior convictions for prior felonies or similar offenses,that many offenders have. Or, that the charges involved were abuse of minor under 14 , with special allegation of burglary of  inhabited dwelling (tent/cabin)  with intent to commit a felony within.  Burglary is commonly thought of as breaking in, but technically it is the entering of a building, however slightly, with the intent to commit a crime therein.  So, even a counselor walking through the front door of the cabin  with a key, could be hit with the burglary count.  This is a very general overview of the law, and not intended to reflect the law wherever you are.

 

I wonder if that person is actually still in Jail?   Getting a life sentence doesn't mean you actually serve life.  

 

There is/was a man in my town's pervert registry that had been a producer for child p videos.   Like a business with lots of kids.  He's out.   They now obscure how long someone was in jail but you can get a ballpark max. based on sentencing date and when they first registered in your town.   This guy served a max of 5 years, and that was the longest I've ever seen on the registry.   Time served is about one month for year of the victim up to about 13-14.   

[ChocolateReignRemix]

in many jurisdictions, a life sentence for sexual abuse of minor is not unusual. Typically resulting from prior convictions for prior felonies or similar offenses,that many offenders have. Or, that the charges involved were abuse of minor under 14 , with special allegation of burglary of  inhabited dwelling (tent/cabin)  with intent to commit a felony within.  Burglary is commonly thought of as breaking in, but technically it is the entering of a building, however slightly, with the intent to commit a crime therein.  So, even a counselor walking through the front door of the cabin  with a key, could be hit with the burglary count.  This is a very general overview of the law, and not intended to reflect the law wherever you are.

 

No, they could not.  The entry itself must be unlawful.  Generally if you have a legal right to be somewhere (and a counselor has a general legal right to be on the camp property) then the burglary charge would not apply.

 

In many states (not all), you would be correct if the person unlawfully entered the home of another to commit a crime.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

No, not really, but he received significant years that he shouldn't be out for a long time.  If I recall correctly, there were 12 boys involved, 10 from his church, 2 outside it, and oodles upon oodles of pornography.  He admitted guilt.

 

His name should be public record - yes - it is, I just looked, but didn't find his actual sentence, mainly reports about his first arrest.  Maybe they keep the rest classified?  Word got around though.

 

Again, none of the "problems" occurred at the overnight camp he worked at (and my kids attended).  He even admitted that wasn't private enough for him.  The problems occurred elsewhere.

 

Here's a search page if folks care to look at what is public:

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=jeff+crosley+littlestown+pa+&*

 

I think a lot of places have wised up since the old days and work hard at making things safe for kids (and staff).  It's other places I'd worry more TBH.

 

For that number of crimes a lengthy sentence sounds correct.  The pornography charges also could have been federal and the sentences for those are fairly severe.

 

[wintermom]

I'm not Janie Grace, but I think that the sleep-away aspect is an important part of camp.   It was a huge step in my maturing, gaining independence and confidence.  There are lots of things that a kid has to take care of themselves because it is overnight camp.  You have to store your own stuff manage the minor chores required.   Just sleeping away from home was a huge step!  I'd felt like such a big girl.   With a day camp, someone else is handling laundry, etc.  it just isn't the same.   

 

Can you tell I can't wait until DD is old enough for overnight camp?   

 

Yes, all this stuff, plus lack of sleep, food issues, friend issues, etc., etc. just took away from the horses for me.

 

I love camping, and I love horses, I don't need to do them all together, in fact it's way better if they're not mashed together. 

[marbel]

I'm not Janie Grace, but I think that the sleep-away aspect is an important part of camp.   It was a huge step in my maturing, gaining independence and confidence.  There are lots of things that a kid has to take care of themselves because it is overnight camp.  You have to store your own stuff manage the minor chores required.   Just sleeping away from home was a huge step!  I'd felt like such a big girl.   With a day camp, someone else is handling laundry, etc.  it just isn't the same.   

 

Can you tell I can't wait until DD is old enough for overnight camp?   

 

I agree, for my kids anyway.  They have nothing but good memories of their first camp (and most all subsequent camps).   Being away from home added to their self-images as competent people.    Obviously everyone is going to feel differently about that, and have different experiences.  But I'm  happy my kids had that experience when they did.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I wonder if that person is actually still in Jail?   Getting a life sentence doesn't mean you actually serve life.  

 

There is/was a man in my town's pervert registry that had been a producer for child p videos.   Like a business with lots of kids.  He's out.   They now obscure how long someone was in jail but you can get a ballpark max. based on sentencing date and when they first registered in your town.   This guy served a max of 5 years, and that was the longest I've ever seen on the registry.   Time served is about one month for year of the victim up to about 13-14.   

 

That seems incredibly low for producing pornography with minors.

 

I have to disagree with your overall assessment of length of sentence/actual sentence.  It varies by state, but the greater differentiation is the actual charge.  When you get to the first degree felony level, no state has minimum sentencing guidelines that equals a release in months.

 

When you see relatively low sentences, generally there has been a plea bargain to a lesser charge.  While it may not seem like enough you have to keep in mind how difficult these cases are to prosecute and win.

 

On a related note, I actually had jury duty this week and the case I was called for involved a group sexual assault by older teens on a younger teen.  The jury selection for that type of proceeding is intense (I was not selected).

[Storygirl]

I have mixed feelings. Depending on the circumstances, I have allowed my children to go to sleep away camp, and I have also refused it.

 

When I allowed it for my oldest, she was attended a church camp with her cousin that DH had also attended as a child. We had reasons to trust that it was safe.

 

Last summer I did not allow my younger daughter to go to camp with our new church, because we only knew the pastor. And it was not an established permanent camp but a campground that the church group would be using for their own activities. I didn't know the people and I didn't like the structure.

 

I also did not allow them to go to a weekend church retreat at a hotel with an attached water park. I didn't like the water park aspect. And I felt very uncomfortable with the idea of them sharing hotel rooms with adult strangers, even if they had been vetted by the church. Staying in a cabin with a group of kids is different to me than 4 kids plus 2 adults in a hotel room. I just couldn't allow it. My kids didn't understand, although we explained it.