s/o when should your kids have sex?

[Tsuga]

My mom wanted me to have babies without a husband. After her experience with my dad, she was a firm believer in artificial insemination, LOL.

 

Honestly, while I see her point, I am glad my kids will always know their genetic roots. Like me, even if they figure out what their dad is like, they can forever respect their grandmother and their aunties.

 

So I guess I disappointed my mom too... but don't we all?

[Barb_]

My mom wanted me to have babies without a husband. After her experience with my dad, she was a firm believer in artificial insemination, LOL.

 

Honestly, while I see her point, I am glad my kids will always know their genetic roots. Like me, even if they figure out what their dad is like, they can forever respect their grandmother and their aunties.

 

So I guess I disappointed my mom too... but don't we all?

Lol, eventually.

[maize]

Both my parents and my in laws have been able to navigate having some children make choices the parents wouldn't have chosen for them while maintaining good relationships. I expect ;) I can manage the same.

[Tsuga]

 

 

A lot of my friends wasted their 20's with "bad boys" whom they knew they would never want to marry and ignoring all the nice guys who would've made great husbands.

 

Oh man. See, what I did, was I waited until 26, then the clock was ticking. So I married the first guy who had the nerve to come on to such a professional nice girl.

 

Besides, of course, my children, I gained NOTHING by waiting.

 

There are no perfect lives, there are no perfect answers. I ignored many, many nice guys (and have regrets). However--right now I am with the most wonderful nice guy of all.

 

Our family isn't perfect, but which family is? We are lucky. I am sorry the kids are kids of divorce, but then, neither he nor I initiated it.

 

He married a woman who wanted to marry because no sex out of marriage (Mormon). My ex married me for the same reason (he, Muslim, I, at the time, Christian). 

 

So you can see how well THAT worked out for us!

[Barb_]

I don't believe every dating relationship should result in engagement or marriage either. Dating should be about getting to know the other person to see if he or she would make a good spouse. Not all will, and it's fine to go through several dating relationships before finding Mr./Ms. Right. But I have a big problem with dating someone you KNOW is Mr./Ms. Wrong just to "have fun". A lot of my friends wasted their 20's with "bad boys" whom they knew they would never want to marry and ignoring all the nice guys who would've made great husbands. I do not want that for my children. I don't want them to rush into marriage before carefully evaluating the merits of a potential spouse, but I want them to view dating as having an end goal of marriage at some point.

Okay but, not every sexual relationship is about conquest. How do you feel about a monogamous, committed, sexual relationship that doesn't necessarily end in marriage? Just curious.

[Crimson Wife]

I don't get this. We've rarely lived near our parents so they have visited often. Is this only in their home or is it also if they are visiting in your home? I just don't get it. I have sex with my dh with my dds in the home. I have had sex with my, and dh's parents, in the home. I feel it isn't healthy to act like it is something to hide and be ashamed of. I don't want my dds thinking it's not okay to have sex with their spouses when they visit. It seems to make it something wrong and dirty when it's not either of those things. 

 

My parents stay in a hotel or an Air BnB rental when they are visiting us so it's not an issue.

 

Obviously DH and I have sex while our kids are down the hall but that's different. It's our house.

 

It's not wrong for married adult offspring to have sex with their spouses under the parents' roof but it IS awkward.

 

[Barb_]

My phone is at 2% so I'll say goodnight. Thanks for the thought provoking conversation. This has been on my mind quite a bit lately and I have no friends IRL with kids as old as mine. Hence no one to really talk this out with.

[Crimson Wife]

Okay but, not every sexual relationship is about conquest. How do you feel about a monogamous, committed, sexual relationship that doesn't necessarily end in marriage? Just curious.

 

If they went into the relationship with a "courtship" mindset, then chalk it up to an honest mistake. People are fallible and not every relationship that appears to be headed for the altar actually winds up there.

[maize]

I just had a thought that might clarify communication:

 

I expect that my children will make some choices that will cause me pain and worry and fear and grief.

 

I guess that's why to me the word expect is less loaded than "hope".

 

I don't hope those things will happen, but I do expect they will.

 

Just like I expect good things to happen.

 

Life is full of love and pain and joy and disappointment. Parenting is just a microcosm of that. One in which perhaps all the good and the bad and the joy and the sorrow are intensified.

[Tsuga]

My parents stay in a hotel or an Air BnB rental when they are visiting us so it's not an issue.

 

Obviously DH and I have sex while our kids are down the hall but that's different. It's our house.

 

It's not wrong for married adult offspring to have sex with their spouses under the parents' roof but it IS awkward.

 

 

This is a generational / cultural thing.

 

It is not awkward in my mom's or his mom's house. Obviously that is not the place for loud earth-shattering sex. Nobody ever wants to hear their family members having sex. They just don't.

 

However, we have spent a week at my mom's and if we ever had to spend a week at his mom's... I guarantee you they know we aren't waiting, LOL.

 

Our parents are 60 - 75, we are late 30s early 40s.

 

Our parents are all agnostic / atheists and so are we.

 

Again, obviously, when in a house with many families, you don't scream through the roof. Yes, we respect others. If the bed jiggles, have sex on the floor on the duvet cover (btw parents... in case you think you can hear the bed jiggling...)

[maize]

I've never been uncomfortable as a married women engaging in normal marriage activities behind closed doors while at my parents' or inlaws' home.

 

We're all religious folks, don't think that makes a difference.

[Laura Corin]

Not until its legal.  Definitely safely.  Preferably in a committed relationship.  Gay/straight.

[Misha]

I've been married almost twelve years and I, personally, find it rude to engage in acts of intimacy at the home of a family member, so we never have. 

Maybe it's just me. 

[Baile]

When they are capable of handling any of the possible consequences, and responsible enough to minimize the risks. I can't see this happening before age 19/20.

 

When they trust their partner and feel comfortable communicating with them about tough topics. Ideally, this would be a loving, committed, romantic relationship, but a "friends with benefits" type situation wouldn't kill me. 

 

Marriage doesn't factor into this issue for us.

[Laura Corin]

It was easier with a newborn than a toddler ;)

 

Yes.  I went around the world with a 3 year old and a six week old; the baby was much easier.

 

[Carrie12345]

I feel it's my responsibility to give them all the information, and it's their responsibility to determine what's right for them.

[marbel]

A couple of thoughts from various posts...

 

People who believe in waiting for marriage do not necessarily believe sex is only for procreation.   Sex is for pleasure, and an element of a happy/content married life.  That procreation may be a result of it is either a bonus or a curse, depending on one's point of view, I guess.  Some people teach that sex is a gift from God, for married couples and only married couples.

 

Just an aside, I learned some time ago that some Christian missionary agencies, when vetting married couples for field mission work, ask the couple how their sex life is.  A not-good sex life can be a disqualifier.  They want the married couples out on the mission field to be happy together, to have a satisfying life together. Couples who don't, probably don't do so well under the stresses of mission life. 

 

Darn it, I lost the other thought.  Later on if I have a chance I'll review posts and see if it comes back. 

 

Great discussion here. 

 

ETA: I thought of it - I was married for the 1st time @ 22, then for the 2nd @ 39.  There was activity in between which I regret when I think about it. But anyway, someone mentioned marrying late, and knowing that if they'd waited till marriage, they would have missed out on a good part of life.  I can see that... but I can also see that there is always potential to discover new things and wish we'd discovered or done them earlier.  I wish I'd had my kids younger - maybe I'd have more kids and I would probably have more time with my kids.  (No guarantees on that, I know.)  I can think of places I've visited that I wish I'd seen sooner so I might have more opportunity to go back again.  <shrug>  This is the way life works out sometimes.  I suppose it's possible that if I hadn't had that first marriage, and had waited till 39, I'd have felt like I'd missed out.  But maybe I wouldn't, because... the person I was enjoying it with wasn't in my life any earlier. 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by marbel

[creekland]

I feel the issue is when your kids don't necessarily agree with your viewpoints. Then it becomes how horribly do they think they are letting you down. That can crush a kid, I know!  Knowing what you expect is very different than living up to what you expect. We can all hope our dc do what we expect but we, honestly, should prepare ourselves for what to do if they don't. 

 

This is why we've told our kids point blank that they can feel free to make all the decisions in their lives.  Some might lead to mistakes and backtracking.  Others might lead to the gold pot under the rainbow.  It doesn't matter.  As long as they don't choose to be pimps, illegal drug dealers, or terrorists (yes, we say that in our joking manner), we'll support them and be happy for them.

 

We still have our expectations for their lives, because we're parents and parents are human.  One of those expectations was that all three would attend our Alma mater since hubby and I had such a fun time there - who wouldn't want to share that with their kids?  Oldest convinced us there were other schools out there and a fit he preferred to ours.  At that point we fully realized what letting them choose their own path was all about - and we supported all three in their choices of college even though we still wistfully would have loved if they'd gone to our college.

 

Seriously though, it's just wistfulness - not any sort of "you failed me" disappointment.

 

Hope, to me, could be an interchangeable word, but I hope I win the lottery at some point even though it's difficult with as rarely as we play.  It's too minor of a word - depending too much on luck.

 

I expect my kids to have a great life they've chosen.  If it doesn't happen, we'll adjust, accept, and help if needed.  Such is life.  But I'm not just going to cross my fingers and hope they have a good life.  That, the way we see it, would do more damage by implying it's not likely to happen unless they get lucky.  We want them to think they can do it (not necessarily meaning sex until marriage - because for us - that's their decision).

[regentrude]

 

DH and I waited until we were adults and when we finally had sex, it was satisfying. There's a lot to be said for the privacy that comes with being an adult since we didn't have to sneak around to avoid getting caught by parents or the police. One time in the backseat of a car at the drive-in just for kicks was MORE than enough. Talk about uncomfortable!

 

Considering it necessary to sneak around is an expression of a culture that considers sex shameful. There is no need when younger couples can have privacy and safety in a parent's house.

[ktgrok]

 

I suppose if one thinks sex is only for procreation then it would be a virtue to wait until marriage. Otherwise, I really don't see anything super special about saving yourself. I do think you need to be emotionally mature and have a good relationship with your partner, but that's also my belief. I've known professional men and women who find casual, just-for-fun sex enjoyable, and they are perfectly happy people.

 

 

1. I don't think sex is just for procreation. It's also for pleasure, and bringing two people closer together through that act of mutual pleasure. Science backs this up with the idea that the oxytocin released helps people bond to each other. 

 

2. In my family, and in my religion, it's not about saving yourself for anyone. It's not a gift to give. It's about expressing something wonderful within the appropriate boundaries in order to make it even more wonderful. It's also about safety. My daughter's sunday school class learned this week that the reason God gives us rules is to keep us "safe and happy" the same reason Mommy and Daddy make rules. Sex is safest inside marriage. And as for happy, I'm sure you know people that find casual sex enjoyable, and it is, right up until there is a disease shared, possibly deadly or untreatable given the rise of antibiotic resistant STDs, or they end up sterile and find out years later that it was from an STD that had no symptoms they caught years ago, or there is an unintended pregnancy that now requires a major shift in priorities not to mention being tied for the rest of their lives to a person they didn't consider a candidate for a relationship, let alone marriage. 

 

I've had sex outside of marriage. It paled considerably to sex within a committed marriage, or at least within a committed relationship. And I've been pregnant outside of marriage. That was the most stressful time of my life, trying to determine what to do, then rushing a wedding that turned into a disaster of a marriage (see other post on ex for just one example). If I'd decided to raise the baby as a single mom that would have been extremely stressful too, so it's not just that I made the wrong decision, it's that the entire situation was HARD. And I can say very seriously that if I hadn't gotten pregnant I would have never married him. We were actually in the process of breaking up, as I had matured and realized he had major mental health issues.

 

I've had friends have pregnancy scares. Even when you aren't pregnant, thinking you might be is HUGELY stressful in that situation. I've had friends who did get pregnant and rushed into marriage (like me) and friends that didn't get married but ended up tied to someone for life that they really would rather not be tied to. LOTS of anger and hurt for decades, all from a "casual" "fun" act. And I've had friends that got abortions and in various ways and to various extremes are effected by those years and decades later. 

 

It's not about shame, or purity, or any such stuff for me. It's about realizing that sex is an awesome responsibility as well as a gift. And that we should take care with it. 

 

I think I've impressed that upon my son. We've also talked about the drama of dating in the teen years, and he has a dislike of drama. We've also talked about the science, facts, how to protect oneself, etc etc. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by ktgrok

[regentrude]

2. In my family, and in my religion, it's not about saving yourself for anyone. It's not a gift to give. It's about expressing something wonderful within the appropriate boundaries in order to make it even more wonderful. It's also about safety. My daughter's sunday school class learned this week that the reason God gives us rules is to keep us "safe and happy" the same reason Mommy and Daddy make rules. Sex is safest inside marriage. And as for happy, I'm sure you know people that find casual sex enjoyable, and it is, right up until there is a disease shared, possibly deadly or untreatable given the rise of antibiotic resistant STDs, or they end up sterile and find out years later that it was from an STD that had no symptoms they caught years ago, or there is an unintended pregnancy that now requires a major shift in priorities not to mention being tied for the rest of their lives to a person they didn't consider a candidate for a relationship, let alone marriage. 

 

I've had sex outside of marriage. It paled considerably to sex within a committed marriage, or at least within a committed relationship. And I've been pregnant outside of marriage. That was the most stressful time of my life, trying to determine what to do, then rushing a wedding that turned into a disaster of a marriage (see other post on ex for just one example). I've had friends have pregnancy scares. I've had friends who rushed into marriage (like me) and friends that didn't get married but ended up tied to someone for life that they really would rather not be tied to. LOTS of anger and hurt for decades, all from a "casual" "fun" act. And I've had friends that got abortions and in various ways and to various extremes are effected by those years and decades later. 

 

Two comments:

1. "unmarried" does not automatically mean "casual sex with random partners". I am pretty sure nobody here argues that the latter is a good idea.

2. Being married is no guarantee that a baby is welcome, wanted, and the circumstances right for raising one.

Edited March 1, 2016 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

I just had a thought that might clarify communication:

 

I expect that my children will make some choices that will cause me pain and worry and fear and grief.

 

I guess that's why to me the word expect is less loaded than "hope".

 

I don't hope those things will happen, but I do expect they will.

 

Just like I expect good things to happen.

 

Life is full of love and pain and joy and disappointment. Parenting is just a microcosm of that. One in which perhaps all the good and the bad and the joy and the sorrow are intensified.

 

I think the confusion is people are thinking you mean expect in the sense of "I have high expectations that my kids should live up to" and you are meaning expect in the sense of "anticipate". As in, I anticipate it will be sunny tomorrow. If it isn't, it is't that the weather was morally wrong, it just surprised you. 

[DawnM]

I was an accident.  I never thought twice about it.  Actually, change that.  I did.  I'm really glad abortion wasn't legal back then as I also know I wouldn't be here if it had been.  It's why I'm 100% pro-life actually.  (Except in very rare cases.)  I'm totally live and let live on other things, but not abortion.  Well... the "let the baby live" part trumps the rest.

 

As for sex though... all we've told our kids is hubby and I are 100% glad we waited for each other and had no relations with anyone else to taint our memories.

 

They can decide for themselves what's right for them.  We'll love and accept them no matter what.  They don't have to grow up to be clones of us in any way, shape, or fashion.  They know this.  We've told them point blank.

 

 

I have definitely known all of my life that I was an accident.  I was given up for adoption!

[regentrude]

One additional thought:

 

it is good to be aware that religious interpretations are strongly influenced by culture. 

 

I grew up Christian in my home country, received religious instruction throughout childhood and youth, and was very involved in our church. There is no comparable emphasis on waiting for marriage (and there are other aspects that are not emphasized as they are in the US, and some things that are almost mainstream in this country are observed only at the far fringes).

[happypamama]

I believe sex belongs in marriage, so that's what I teach my children. I hope they will wait until they are married, but at the very least, I want them to be at the point where they are very committed to a long term partner that they can trust will stick around and where it is completely a mutual decision with no pressure. I also want them to be mature enough to use protection properly every time, or to be in a position where they don't need protection. As for babies, while I know that the future is never predictable and not always stable, I want them to have no regrets when they have children. I don't know that anyone is 100% prepared for the reality of parenthood (although I'd say if anyone was, we were, and having our first really just fit easily into our lifestyle), but I also think that if I'd gotten pregnant in college, while I'd have been thrilled to have a baby because I love babies, I'd have regretted it if I hadn't been able to finish the degree I'd started. I don't at all regret not having a career.

[Dmmetler]

Lots of women in academia wait to conceive. It is kind of a problem for those who want babies but wait, because their chances go off a cliff (chances, so of course some have no problem) by the time they get their PhDs.

 

I think it's worthwhile to have a chat about waiting and what you can do to support her if, when it comes to that, she wants to have a baby and continue her career. Having baby at home with grandma is hard for grandma but for the career... it means you can have a baby more easily, you're young, you can still do it. Without grandma, people wait until 40. So I'd say, my rule of three would be, 20, grandma/grandpa can semi-retire, and have a job or be in an academic career track.

 

It is a shame, biologically, that being a "responsible" mother is so at odds with human biology. My mom has helped me SO much, and she gave good advice, but as a social project I hope my generation can be the generation in which grandma and grandpa can really make it possible for people to have babies before 35.

 

I mean if you still want to wait, great, but there shouldn't be that social pressure to wait until you have everything "just so"--as if you could control the future.

 

Edited for grammar.

I think for DD, that's one reason why she decided on 30. Because most of her grad student friends won't be finished and hopefully able to support a child until about then, especially since herpetology is a field where the dissertation can take roughly forever, especially if you're talking fieldwork in the USA. Heck, DD's little project is going into year three! And she knows a lot of people with kids her age who are in their 40's and some in their '50's. She knows one grad student who does have a child, and she knows just how difficult it has been for that young woman to finish her degree.

 

Add in enough "BC is not 100% effective" at preventing pregnancy talks and an in-depth knowledge of what premature breeding can do to animals, and she's heading into puberty with a sincere belief that sex is something to wait for.

 

I'm still guessing that when puberty kicks in more thoroughly, she may decide that birth control and condoms are reasonable precautions to take, but I'm hoping her "eyes on the prize" mentality and plan for a PhD will carry her through until she is well and truly ready.

 

One thing good about essentially giving up my own academic career to homeschool-the idea of being available to help with a grandchild doesn't bother me, any more than it bothers me that I'm likely to end up keeping DD's snakes while she's in college.

[Reefgazer]

I will generally advise my kids to wait until they are mature (out of high school for example) and in a long-term relationship where the other party has proven themselves to be worthy of them.

[elegantlion]

If I told ds to wait for marriage, I would be a hypocrite. I did not and have no regrets. 

 

We have talked about the consequences of sex, especially the emotional, and since he is male, we talk a lot about what consent looks like and means. I would prefer he wait until he is in a relationship first and not go into a relationship because of/ or for sex. Those are the relationships that I saw get messy as a teen. Because ds tends to be single-focused, we also talk about what a relationship might look like while he's in school. 

 

Between him, me, and my mom we've had some very open and frank discussions about sex. My mom is and always has been fairly progressive in her thinking about sexual relationships. 

 

Mostly for ds, I hope he has a fulfilling intimacy with a significant other/spouse that includes a quality sex life. Whether that happens inside or outside of marriage, I don't really care. 

[Pam in CT]

In the early part of this thread, I was uncomfortable -- with both the original framing around "should" and some of the early discussion, some of which seemed to me to be rooted in premises that I don't share.

 

For me, the starting point for me thinking through my kids' important decisions is: they own their own agency, their own bodies, their own values, their own understanding of and relationship (or not) with God and the faith tradition in which they have been raised.  

 

It's not my "should"; it's theirs.  Of course there are thousands of points of influence, and my husband and I take them; and of course I have opinions, I'm rather an opinionated gal, lol.  We talk a lot; my kids have heard me wax on about power differentials and respect for self and others and the probability of divorce at different onset ages and the probability of infertility issues at different onset ages.  There was a thread on this a while back where I laid out my opinions FWIW.

 

But I believe that the decision is theirs -- not just as a practical recognition that parents-can't-compel-their-adult-kids, but as an ethical matter.  

 

 

Barb's and maize's conversation around how different people use (and receive) the words "expect" and "hope" was helpful to me.  I expect my kids to make these decisions with their own agency, through the lens of their own values.  I hope that in making their decisions they will seriously what their father and I have modeled and discussed with them over all these years.  I expect that they know that we will continue to love and support them whatever they decide, on this matter as well as on other big ones like how they make a living and where they choose to live and who they choose as a life partner and what faith tradition (if any) they embrace and blah blah blah.  The decision of sexual onset doesn't loom disproportionately large compared to many others.

 

 

 

[maize]

I think the confusion is people are thinking you mean expect in the sense of "I have high expectations that my kids should live up to" and you are meaning expect in the sense of "anticipate". As in, I anticipate it will be sunny tomorrow. If it isn't, it is't that the weather was morally wrong, it just surprised you.

Yes! This exactly.

[SparklyUnicorn]

One additional thought:

 

it is good to be aware that religious interpretations are strongly influenced by culture. 

 

I grew up Christian in my home country, received religious instruction throughout childhood and youth, and was very involved in our church. There is no comparable emphasis on waiting for marriage (and there are other aspects that are not emphasized as they are in the US, and some things that are almost mainstream in this country are observed only at the far fringes).

 

Very true.  I'm an atheist so you'd think I would mostly not care about any of this.  I know I have been heavily influenced by culture.  That's the only way to explain my views which aren't particularly compatible with atheism (for lack of a better way of putting it).

[Scarlett]

If I told ds to wait for marriage, I would be a hypocrite. I did not and have no regrets. .

There are many things I did in my life that I tell Ds I want him to do differently. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. I hope he will learn from my mistakes.

[Ravin]

I've said that they should not have sex until THEY want to do it (that is, not because somebody is pressuring them, that's the sort of somebody you ditch fast) and that if they want to have sex they shouldn't try to justify it with "well, I love him, so it's okay", because I've seen  people tie themselves into bad relationships that way. Having sex doesn't make it true love, and it doesn't mean you're obligated to keep trying to make it work if it isn't working.

 

(Also, we've pretty strongly emphasized protection. Like whoa.)

 

But I don't think the choice to have or not have consensual sex overlaps much with morality at all. The choice to break a real or implied promise of monogamy does, and of course if the other party isn't consenting or isn't able to consent then it certainly does, but other than that? Meh.

 

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. So far, haven't had much of this sort of conversation with my DD.

 

This website sums up information for teens on things like what sex ed is allowed in schools, age of consent laws, where and when it is legal to obtain birth control, STD testing, abortion rights, etc.

 

http://sexetc.org/states/arizona/

Edited March 1, 2016 by Ravin

[Scarlett]

It's taking place where you probably think it is. At our house. And at hers. We the parents feel that if we forbade it they'd be in the backseat of a car or an hourly motel. Teens who want to have sex will find a place and a way. We are not against their relationship. We are comfortable with it. Her parents are on the same page as dh and me.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of people here who think that's terrible. That's okay. Think what you want. They aren't your kids. They're ours. And they're damn good kids too.

It is true that teens who are determined to rebel against parents' rules of any kind will do so. I think that is a terrible reason for a parent to condone wrongdoing. But of course you dont think it is wrong, so I am a little confused by your entire post to me.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It is true that teens who are determined to rebel against parents' rules of any kind will do so. I think that is a terrible reason for a parent to condone wrongdoing. But of course you dont think it is wrong, so I am a little confused by your entire post to me.

 

She obviously doesn't think it is wrong.  You obviously do.  Not sure why you need to mask your disdain for her views by saying you don't understand.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The problem is when there is no privacy.Many homes just dont have it, and one is treated to the soundtrack.

 

Personally, I dont want to be an audience. Nor do I want to explain to a preteen why I believe it wrong to be using an extended family holiday event to prove one's 'manhood' when the girl is within earshot, especially if she hasnt figured out that she is a freebie being taken advantage of.

 

I don't know.  Really?  You think they'd be super loud if people are around?  I think most people would find that rather embarrassing (to know people could hear them).

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

This is a generational / cultural thing.

 

It is not awkward in my mom's or his mom's house. Obviously that is not the place for loud earth-shattering sex. Nobody ever wants to hear their family members having sex. They just don't.

 

However, we have spent a week at my mom's and if we ever had to spend a week at his mom's... I guarantee you they know we aren't waiting, LOL.

 

Our parents are 60 - 75, we are late 30s early 40s.

 

Our parents are all agnostic / atheists and so are we.

 

Again, obviously, when in a house with many families, you don't scream through the roof. Yes, we respect others. If the bed jiggles, have sex on the floor on the duvet cover (btw parents... in case you think you can hear the bed jiggling...)

 

I'm the same age so it's not a generational thing. Maybe it's a Catholic thing?

 

My parents made DH sleep on the pull-out sofa when he visited their home a few days before we got married. I even said something to them about that because they hadn't made my aunt's boyfriend (not fiance) sleep on the sofa on a visit shortly prior, and the answer was, "you're our child so that's different".

 

[Crimson Wife]

  other big ones like how they make a living and where they choose to live and who they choose as a life partner and what faith tradition (if any) they embrace and blah blah blah.  The decision of sexual onset doesn't loom disproportionately large compared to many others.

 

To me personally, the choice to have sex is a bigger deal than the choice of where to live or what job to take because it can have such permanent consequences. I believe abortion is murder so an unplanned pregnancy means a child to either raise or give up for adoption. Also there are nasty STD's that are incurable and fairly common. Contraception reduces the risks somewhat but does not eliminate them. I had enough on my plate as a teen without wanting to add fearing getting pregnant or contracting an incurable disease. I hope that my children feel the same way as they go through their teen years.

[maize]

I'm the same age so it's not a generational thing. Maybe it's a Catholic thing?

" w

My parents made DH sleep on the pull-out sofa when he visited their home a few days before we got married. I even said something to them about that because they hadn't made my aunt's boyfriend (not fiance) sleep on the sofa on a visit shortly prior, and the answer was, "you're our child so that's different".

 

Edited because I mis-read.

 

I was thinking this happened after you were married.

Edited March 1, 2016 by maize

[vonfirmath]

Inside of a marriage, ideally.

 

I like that. Not just after marriage, but with their spouse. Inside of marriage.

[Scarlett]

She obviously doesn't think it is wrong. You obviously do. Not sure why you need to mask your disdain for her views by saying you don't understand.

I don't feel any distain.

[Ravin]

Re: Young marriage. If my kid wants to get married before the age of 25 or so, I will strongly recommend to the couple that they get a prenup. WITH such a document in place, I would even consider giving consent to my kid marrying before 18.

 

That said, I don't think sex outside of marriage is any kind of moral problem. It can be an emotional land mine for some people, and those people should wait for a long-term, committed, healthily-balanced relationship.

 

For other people, sex as recreation is perfectly reasonable as long as one understands the risks and takes appropriate precautions--because just like skateboarding or mountain climbing or driving a car, there are risks, which can be mitigated but not eliminated.

[Laura Corin]

I am sure that is the case for married couples, but the males with the latest trophy are, ime, rather indiscreet as they dont realize how thin the walls are or how far sound carries.

 

So you are characterising a fellow-boardie's child as a male taking a 'latest trophy'?  Or have I misunderstood?

Edited March 1, 2016 by Laura Corin

[gardenmom5]

I don't know.  Really?  You think they'd be super loud if people are around?  I think most people would find that rather embarrassing (to know people could hear them).

 

that's how one couple got their neighbors to be more discrete (re: quiet) - they were VERY loud, so they asked them what they'd been doing . . . the loud couple didn't even think about the fact that other neighbors in their apartment building could hear them.  (shared wall bedroom walls, ceiling/floor . . . .)

[ktgrok]

Spin off of the noise issue...my husband and I have the worlds loudest bed. I got a new mattress, but it still makes noise. Drives me crazy. I decided to kind of stop worrying about it as my son has on noise canceling headphones, gaming, at that time of night. Then realized he also has a microphone, that he's talking-to his friends with. So although HE can't hear us.....now I'm worried his friends can!

[Pam in CT]

re magnitude of decision re timing of sexual onset vs other large life decisions:

 

To me personally, the choice to have sex is a bigger deal than the choice of where to live or what job to take because it can have such permanent consequences. I believe abortion is murder so an unplanned pregnancy means a child to either raise or give up for adoption. Also there are nasty STD's that are incurable and fairly common. Contraception reduces the risks somewhat but does not eliminate them. I had enough on my plate as a teen without wanting to add fearing getting pregnant or contracting an incurable disease. I hope that my children feel the same way as they go through their teen years.

 

I agree that pregnancy and certain STDs are life altering.  And also that certain decisions, like early job choices and first apartment location and whether to go directly on to college, are reversible.  I am personally also quite troubled by abortion, though my public policy line may differ from yours; and -- back to the point about agency -- my kids' views may be different from mine.

 

My kids know that the efficacy (for pregnancy) of contraceptives such as implants / IUDs / the pill are pretty solid.  And they know that protecting against STDs entails additional precautions (that have the bonus effect of further reducing any residual pregnancy risk).  The risks -- though not reducible to zero -- can be managed to a level in the range of many other ordinary activities that young adults engage in / decisions young adults take.  

 

My kids and I have also discussed the higher divorce rates associated with early marriage, and the commensurate higher probability that kids will be affected by divorce.  Obviously many early marriages work out terrifically, and FTR I do not believe divorce with children is a catastrophe -- clearly there are cases where it's the best of less good options -- but my general advice to my kids is that both marriage and childrearing are best left to... grownups, lol. 

 

 

Different values pull in different directions.  There's a value in coming to adulthood autonomously, to developing a strong sense of independent identity -- it helps a lot with resilience and strength and boundaries later on.  There's also a (different) value in couples growing up together, having shared experiences that reach all the way back.  There's a value in parenting once we've reached a certain point of maturity and judgment and financial security; there's also a (different) value in doing it when we're young and energetic (and still having some oomph on the back end when the kids are launched).  There's value in independence and also a (different) value in interdependence across generations and within communities, including faith communities.

 

I cannot help but have opinions, lol, and for better and for worse I do not hold back on sharing my opinions with my kids.

 

Ultimately though it's their agency, to be made within the competing tensions of their values.  Which inevitable will be a different analysis than mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lady Florida.]

I don't believe every dating relationship should result in engagement or marriage either. Dating should be about getting to know the other person to see if he or she would make a good spouse. Not all will, and it's fine to go through several dating relationships before finding Mr./Ms. Right. But I have a big problem with dating someone you KNOW is Mr./Ms. Wrong just to "have fun". A lot of my friends wasted their 20's with "bad boys" whom they knew they would never want to marry and ignoring all the nice guys who would've made great husbands. I do not want that for my children. I don't want them to rush into marriage before carefully evaluating the merits of a potential spouse, but I want them to view dating as having an end goal of marriage at some point.

 

Okay. I still don't get why you quoted me. And why you think any relationship that doesn't begin with marriage in mind is "just for fun".

 

Also, there are many younger people who choose not to marry even though they stay with a partner. I don't know if ds is going to be one of them, but if that's what he and his SO choose, we'll respect it.  In fact, we already did respect it once, with dss and ddil. As I said in a previous post, we're not new at this. Eventually they did choose to marry, but if they hadn't we would have continued to respect the relationship and their choices.

 

Okay but, not every sexual relationship is about conquest. How do you feel about a monogamous, committed, sexual relationship that doesn't necessarily end in marriage? Just curious.

 

And that is what ds and gf have. A monogamous, committed relationship. 

 

Considering it necessary to sneak around is an expression of a culture that considers sex shameful. There is no need when younger couples can have privacy and safety in a parent's house.

 

This is our reasoning.

 

 

 

We have talked about the consequences of sex, especially the emotional, and since he is male, we talk a lot about what consent looks like and means. I would prefer he wait until he is in a relationship first and not go into a relationship because of/ or for sex. Those are the relationships that I saw get messy as a teen. Because ds tends to be single-focused, we also talk about what a relationship might look like while he's in school. 

 

 

 

Yes, this. It's extremely important. We had these discussions with ds. We had them long before the relationship started, we had them again when it began, and we had them again when it was obvious that it was becoming serious.

 

There are many things I did in my life that I tell Ds I want him to do differently. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. I hope he will learn from my mistakes.

 

Unfortunately you can't count on it. He won't necessarily make your mistakes, but he'll make his own. We all do. The best you can do is be there for him when he does, and help him get back on track.

 

It is true that teens who are determined to rebel against parents' rules of any kind will do so. I think that is a terrible reason for a parent to condone wrongdoing. But of course you dont think it is wrong, so I am a little confused by your entire post to me.

 

We're not condoning wrongdoing, because we don't think it's wrong. There was no need to rebel against our rules because we never had those rules. We merely were realistic and knew that if we made sure it couldn't happen under either of our roofs, that it would likely happen elsewhere. Not definitely. Not without a doubt. And not even rebelliously. But still likely enough that we chose to be proactive.

 

The rest of my post was just ruminating, and it wasn't all to you. I apologize if it appeared that it was.

[Scarlett]

Okay. I still don't get why you quoted me. And why you think any relationship that doesn't begin with marriage in mind is "just for fun".

 

Also, there are many younger people who choose not to marry even though they stay with a partner. I don't know if ds is going to be one of them, but if that's what he and his SO choose, we'll respect it. In fact, we already did respect it once, with dss and ddil. As I said in a previous post, we're not new at this. Eventually they did choose to marry, but if they hadn't we would have continued to respect the relationship and their choices.

 

 

And that is what ds and gf have. A monogamous, committed relationship.

 

 

This is our reasoning.

 

 

Yes, this. It's extremely important. We had these discussions with ds. We had them long before the relationship started, we had them again when it began, and we had them again when it was obvious that it was becoming serious.

 

 

Unfortunately you can't count on it. He won't necessarily make your mistakes, but he'll make his own. We all do. The best you can do is be there for him when he does, and help him get back on track.

 

Scarlett says--- yes I do agree this is true.

 

 

We're not condoning wrongdoing, because we don't think it's wrong. There was no need to rebel against our rules because we never had those rules. We merely were realistic and knew that if we made sure it couldn't happen under either of our roofs, that it would likely happen elsewhere. Not definitely. Not without a doubt. And not even rebelliously. But still likely enough that we chose to be proactive.

 

The rest of my post was just ruminating, and it wasn't all to you. I apologize if it appeared that it was.

[Ravin]

I don't know.  Really?  You think they'd be super loud if people are around?  I think most people would find that rather embarrassing (to know people could hear them).

 

Unless they know the audience, know they aren't going to offend the audience, and have an exhibitionist streak...

[Ravin]

To me personally, the choice to have sex is a bigger deal than the choice of where to live or what job to take because it can have such permanent consequences. I believe abortion is murder so an unplanned pregnancy means a child to either raise or give up for adoption. Also there are nasty STD's that are incurable and fairly common. Contraception reduces the risks somewhat but does not eliminate them. I had enough on my plate as a teen without wanting to add fearing getting pregnant or contracting an incurable disease. I hope that my children feel the same way as they go through their teen years.

 

By this same logic you'll also never let your kid drive, because a car accident can have life changing consequences.