s/o when should your kids have sex?

[zoobie]

That thought process helps me understand where you are coming from. If I was thinking "Ugh." I would say No. The "But I have no good reason to refuse" Would NEVER enter my thought process and is completely foreign to me. I cannot fathom even having this thought and I am not sure how to even address it. The initial feeling of "Ugh." is a GOOD reason in my mind to refuse. I am not sure why anyone would not view it as a good reason. The last part, "and it could wind up being pretty good..." Well, it is always good here, but that does not change the initial "Ugh."

 

If I am at "Ugh." Then the answer is No.

Ha. Well, I don't mean "ugh" about DH. If I'm stuck in my own head, getting out of it is always an ugh. If I never went past there, it would be bad for me as well as my relationship with DH. The more I say "yes" (to sex or any sort of connecting activity), the better I feel and easier it is to say "yes" next time or even be the one doing the initiating. We've both been through cycles of being the one rejected, and that feels crappy too. Anyway, it is good advice for me, as I tend to withdraw into myself, and self-imposed isolation is never good for a marriage.

[EmseB]

There are a lot more reasons why a spouse might be disinterested than 'porn' or 'affair'. Especially in a long term, decades long relationship. 

 

I'm one of those dreadful harridans who also believes no means no, in marriage or out of it. I don't feel the need to provide context every single time I say no. Sometimes there is no context. Creating a social expectation where women in particular need an 'excuse' to decline sexual activity is weird and unhealthy to me. 

 

I'm not even a fan of this whole idea that spouses 'deserve' sex from and with each other. No. Ugh. Nobody 'deserves' my sexual services, not even the person I'm married to, and vice versa. 

 

 

Please don't quote this one:

.

Edited March 2, 2016 by JodiSue

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[sewingmama]

*gulp*. You told your children that one of them was an accident?!

 

None of my kids were planned...all three of them were wanted.

 

 

My mother gave birth to three accidents ( including me). She always said we were the best accidents that ever happenened to her.

 

Plenty of people have accident children..it doesnt mean they aren't wanted. Unwanted children get aborted. Accident children are more like a surprise you didn't know you were going to get but are thrilled with all the same.

[EmseB]

As an introvert who can be lazy (going by the laundry mountain today) I still cannot understand. 

 

Well, I didn't think I was that atypical to have an initial ambivalence but end up enjoying myself anyway.  I'm not sure what's so hard to understand.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't do many, many things like home school, playing games, taking the kids to swim lessons, going to a party, getting out of bed, etc, etc, (or yada yada, if you prefer) if I simply relied on my initial ugh to tell me what I would and wouldn't enjoy.

[Guest]

I don't think it's a good reason because I'm an introvert with a lazy streak and if an initial feeling of "ugh" stopped me from doing things I should do for others in my family, I'd hardly ever do anything. But, most things I attempt after the intial ugh turn out to be pretty enjoyable, and the activity in question is probably on the top of that list. I know myself well enough to know that "ugh" is something I'd like to get over so I can enjoy myself.

Yes, exactly. Perfect example: watch a movie with my family. Initially, I never want to watch a movie. Movies aren't interesting to me before I am watching them. But it makes my kids happy to have a movie night. For two weeks, DS11 asked me to watch The Martian with me. I made excuses (well, in one case, I was ill, so that was valid), because I just didn't feel like giving up the evening for it. But this past Friday, I did it anyway. I bought a pizza, messed up the media room and watched the movie with the family. I loved that movie! I even thanked DS for "nagging" me to watch it because it was the best movie I have seen in a year.

 

If I let my reluctance to do something be the final word, I would easily and happily live a very self-centered life.

[Ausmumof3]

I am not talking about years. Someone else said years. Saying "No" on Monday does not mean the person will say "No" on Wednesday. I am a bit flummoxed that "years" keeps being inserted into this conversation.

 

If it is years there is possibly deeper issues in the relationship that will not be fixed by having sex when feeling "Ugh."

I guess I'm just curious as to what would happen in that situation.

[Χά�ων]

Are you in a closed relationship or an open one?  If closed, do you expect your spouse to get their sexual needs fulfilled by you, or at least giving you the option first, before resorting to porn & masturbation?  Is turning to porn & masturbation completely okay to you in the context of a committed relationship? Do you consider sexual needs to not be a need at all?

 

 

I deleted the personal part, but kept your questions. If you want me to delete more, I will.

 

Closed relationship. We have strong communication about sex and intimacy and making sure we are on the same page. I am not hung up about porn and masturbation and cannot imagine being upset about it. I do not view porn and masturbation as a negative in a committed relationship. I do not view it as a mark against a relationship if one partner masturbates or views porn, in fact I think it can be healthy.

 

Expand on "sexual need" please, I am not sure I am understanding you.

I do not put anyone else's sexual desire above my own, is that what you are asking? Do I respect him? Yes. Does respect mean having sex when I do not want to because it is his need? No.

[Χά�ων]

I guess I'm just curious as to what would happen in that situation.

I have no idea. No experience.

[Χά�ων]

Sure it can, but it often doesn't.

Do you really believe this? 

[Tsuga]

I am not talking about years. Someone else said years. Saying "No" on Monday does not mean the person will say "No" on Wednesday. I am a bit flummoxed that "years" keeps being inserted into this conversation.  

 

If it is years there is possibly deeper issues in the relationship that will not be fixed by having sex when feeling "Ugh."

 

Because it happens.

 

That's why. That is something that is a TV trope and it's, if not in the majority of marriages, certainly common enough that it's a "thing".

 

It's not like this "oh that's 1 / 10,000 could never, ever happen to my sweet son or daughter".

 

It could happen to your kids. So what do you tell them in that case? How do they prevent that in a marriage? You can't just say "well this isn't marriage to me" because the reply is "well it IS marriage to ME and you're not respecting me".

 

I mean you're really stuck.

[EmseB]

I am not talking about years. Someone else said years. Saying "No" on Monday does not mean the person will say "No" on Wednesday. I am a bit flummoxed that "years" keeps being inserted into this conversation.  

 

If it is years there is possibly deeper issues in the relationship that will not be fixed by having sex when feeling "Ugh."

 

I think the years thing comes into play because some of us are having kids over the course of multiple years or even decades and tiredness and the demands of small children can be a big factor over the course of 10 years or so.  Or the demands of building a career while working long hours over the course of a decade can also mean intimacy is given the short shrift.  And if we never made some attempt to be intimate despite an initial tiredness or whatever over those years, it would or could be really damaging to a marriage.

 

And if it is one person in the relationship who is consistently holding the power of "no" over the other person on Monday or Wednesday or whatever day, that's it's own type of power and manipulation.  I think Tsuga had a good example of this in her posts.

[Ausmumof3]

I have no idea. No experience.

The reason I'm asking is because it's my belief that it's what the bible quote thrown in before is talking about. Not an individual night or day but more a long term thing. Im sure these stories are the outliers as much as marital rape is an outlier. It's not what happens in normal healthy relationships but each model seems to have its downfall in not addressing these outlier situations.

[Χά�ων]

Because it happens.

 

That's why. That is something that is a TV trope and it's, if not in the majority of marriages, certainly common enough that it's a "thing".

 

It's not like this "oh that's 1 / 10,000 could never, ever happen to my sweet son or daughter".

 

It could happen to your kids. So what do you tell them in that case? How do they prevent that in a marriage? You can't just say "well this isn't marriage to me" because the reply is "well it IS marriage to ME and you're not respecting me".

 

I mean you're really stuck.

Communication.

Communication.

Communication.

Communicating about needs, desires, health issues, and so on. It is an on going conversation.

[Joker]

Katy, I won't quote you but I'm responding to yours above. If I tell dh no, he doesn't go to porn or anything /anyone else. He's a mature adult who can wait a day or two. So am I. I am a horrible pregnant person who spends months sick and on bed rest. Dh didn't start watching porn or turn somewhere else. The idea that if I say no it means he will do any of those things and ruin our marriage is ridiculous. We're family. We're friends. We're lovers, even if we sometimes say no. We respect and truly love one another.

 

This thread has started to baffle me. It does give me another thing to address with dds though. Don't marry someone that you feel you can't say no to sometimes. Don't marry someone that you think will turn to porn or elsewhere if you sometimes say no. That's not healthy.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Joker

[EmseB]

I do not put anyone else's sexual desire above my own

 

Some people do, on occasion, though because they are married and want to do nice things for their spouse.  And it isn't because they are abused or guilted or pressured.  They do things for another person because they want to, even if it isn't their exact most desirable thing to do in the moment.

 

It doesn't make them apologists or perpetuaters of rape culture, it doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make them weak or whatever other negative connotations you'd like to assign, which I think was how all this started.

Sometimes people do things for others because they want to.  And in that sense, even if they don't feel exactly sexy, it is still doing something they want to do.  It is really that simple.

[Χά�ων]

The reason I'm asking is because it's my belief that it's what the bible quote thrown in before is talking about. Not an individual night or day but more a long term thing. Im sure these stories are the outliers as much as marital rape is an outlier. It's not what happens in normal healthy relationships but each model seems to have its downfall in not addressing these outlier situations.

That bible quote is not relevent to how I live and my relationship with my partner.

[EmseB]

Katy, I won't quote you but I'm responding to yours above. If I tell dh no, he doesn't go to porn or anything /anyone else. He's a mature adult who can wait a day or two. So am I. I am a horrible pregnant person who spends months sick and on bed rest. Dh didn't start watching porn or turn somewhere else. The idea that if I say no it means he will do any of those things and ruin our marriage is ridiculous. We're family. We're friends. We're lovers, even if we sometimes say no. We respect and truly love one another.

 

This thread has started to baffle me. It does give me another thing to address with dds though. Don't marry someone that you feel you can't say no to sometimes. Don't marry someone that you think will turn to porn or elsewhere if you sometimes say no. That's not healthy.

 

 

I am the same way pregnant as you are DH and I have the same understanding.  That's not what I'm talking about.

[Tsuga]

Then again, I don't think it is wrong if someone has only been with one person.  The most important thing really is that if someone cares about their partner and isn't selfish all the time, things will usually fall into place.  Honestly if I had my pick between a person who shared my values and wants in life verses someone who was hot in the sack, I'd pick the most boring person in the sack verses someone who wasn't someone I could live with for the other reasons.  But that is what is most important to me and maybe not other people. 

So while I don't share the same religious beliefs and approaches to relationships that others do, saying something like this in response isn't really less judgmental. 

 

No, there is nothing wrong with having one partner.

 

That's not what I am saying.

 

I would have loved to have had one partner and I certainly don't desire another one right now--I'm on all of #2 right now and I did not initiate the divorce with #1.

 

What I am opposed to is basing judgment of "what works" on a SINGLE relationship. That doesn't make sense. You can be happy, you can enjoy yourself, you can love the sex, but you can't say "this is how you should do it because it leads to better results".

[Joker]

I am the same way pregnant as you are DH and I have the same understanding. That's not what I'm talking about.

I've said no, and so has he, plenty of other times during our 18 years. It's truly not a big deal and I'm surprised by some responses here. Mostly Katy's that I was responding to.

[Ausmumof3]

That bible quote is not relevent to how I live and my relationship with my partner.

No and the fact that some people don't respect no means no is not relevant to mine. However the overall approach to problems of these nature will be relevant to how we advise our kids about this stuff, what makes sense to us.

 

I'm really not trying to be confrontational or defensive I'm trying to work out for myself what my approach to all this will be. My own education was less than ideal, but with changing the approach on some areas I need to make sure I'm not inadvertently creating havoc in others.

[Χά�ων]

nm

Edited March 2, 2016 by Χά�ων

[EmseB]

Ha! Ten years, that's not a long time :)

 

I was probably a lot more like you around the ten year mark.

 

I'm at the twenty year mark. Relationships wax and wane. In twenty years, there could easily be a year of 'no', due to whatever.

 

Listening to and honoring my own needs - and in twenty years, you can bet at times that need has been to have a break! - isn't manipulation. Any partner of mine who considered that to be manipulative would be out on his or her ear.

No, I meant 10 years of being touched out or exhausted. Like, saying no or having the ugh feeling for 10 years...not years of marriage total.

 

ETA: a year does seem, uh, untenable, for me.

Edited March 2, 2016 by JodiSue

[EmseB]

Communication.

Communication.

Communication.

Communicating about needs, desires, health issues, and so on. It is an on going conversation.

But a flat out refusal (no means no, I don't need a reason) is not communication or an ongoing conversation.

[Χά�ων]

But a flat out refusal (no means no, I don't need a reason) is not communication or an ongoing conversation.

It is an answer to one question and needs to be respected. That is seperate from the obgoing conversation and open communication. We have both said no without explanation. We still have on going communication to make sure we are on the same page and satisfied. The conversations do not come in the heat of the moment, but at another time.

 

No still means no.

[Χά�ων]

No, I meant 10 years of being touched out or exhausted. Like, saying no or having the ugh feeling for 10 years...not years of marriage total.

 

ETA: a year does seem, uh, untenable, for me.

Ok, so 10 years without sex is a non issue for you, why are you obsessing over it?

[Joker]

But a flat out refusal (no means no, I don't need a reason) is not communication or an ongoing conversation.

 

 

Unless the no is for months and years, then I don't understand the reason for an ongoing conversation. Dh doesn't need for me to have a conversation about why I'm not in the mood if I say no. If there was an important reason behind it, he knows it's something I would talk about. I don't need the reason or conversation from him either. I would find that such a huge waste of time just because there are times I don't feel like having sex. 

 

Maybe dh and I just don't keep score of who and how many times no is said. Maybe we're just people who don't think actual sex should be so elevated in a relationship that it requires all that's being discussed in this thread. We are much more than roommates (referencing a previous poster) even if we never had sex again. We have plenty of intimacy and it's not all sex. Don't get me wrong, though, we enjoy the act. Especially now that he works from home and dds are in ps.  ;) One of us saying no, which happens, just isn't a big deal. 

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[EmseB]

Ok, so 10 years without sex is a non issue for you, why are you obsessing over it?

That's exactly the opposite of what I said. Years of denials with no explanation would be a huge issue.

 

And as it happens I'm discussing it in a message board, not obsessing.

Edited March 2, 2016 by JodiSue

[Tsuga]

I hope I am quoting an acceptable part of this:

 

 

 

It's funny though, because on one side you have people saying it's not healthy to wait until marriage because you might end up in a bad marriage with poor communication and mismatched compatibility, and those are the same people insisting they don't have to communicate with their spouse beyond a flat "no".  Whereas I feel we are pretty dang compatible despite no "test drive" and I would always communicate more about intimacy than a flat out refusal with no reason.

 

So, I personally think that most of us would agree that it can be healthy to wait until marriage if the individual decides. I'm a very monogamous person, I have learned. I have a switch in my brain. I simply cannot think about other men when I'm in a relationship. I thought, after I left the church, "I will have my fun now." I couldn't. I looked at a few guys and couldn't move forward. My partner was also up for fun, but he had also only been in ONE short-term relationship (<2 years) and a marriage. We met, we fell in love, and we can't imagine being apart. He is like me--can't imagine cheating. Oh, you can look at a magazine cover and think wow, but no. So I do not think it's always unhealthy.

 

I do think it's unhealthy to insist that that is the One Way to True Happiness.

 

I also think that communication is important and that just saying "no" is fine once in awhile but the guidance around that needs to be much, much bigger. Marriage and family and sex are all part of one big thing called the circle of life and you can't escape that. You need to deal with your spouse as a sexual being.

[Joanne]

I've been thinking about my answer to this.

 

My answer when I began to have kids: marriage

 

A little later: late teens, committed relationship

 

Now: I think sex for its own sake is fine (and natural) but I think that approaching sex like that requires life experience and maturity - something late teens and early adults don't have. I think our bodies are *designed* for sex from mid-teen. I think it's unnatural and not of benefit to deny that for some outside/authority virtue. That said, I want my kids to make any intimate choice (sex, self disclosure, time...) with wisdom and when they are ready. I don't want them to think they have to be ready for kids, or an engagement, or committed cohabitation. I don't think most humans in developed countries in 2016 can make those decisions well before 17.

 

 

[Joker]

Of course that's true if you're talking about only a day or two, or even a week or two.  My relationship is exactly the same way.

 

But I have close friends that let weeks turn into months turn into years, felt no obligation to fix it, and then were shocked when that led to multiple affairs and divorce. I'm not blaming the woman for the affair.  He's the jerk who didn't have the guts to negotiate the relationship to fulfill his needs before cheating. But I do think it's completely ridiculous to go months or years at a time without meeting the spouse's needs and to not expect them to go elsewhere. 

 

Of course, there is masturbation without porn.  But again, I have a couple friends whose marriages were ruined by a husband's porn addiction.  I don't have that problem now, but it did turn into an issue in a previous relationship of mine. I've read theories about porn addiction that the internet porn is more harmful than previous versions, because previously men were limited by a collection, but now there is endless supply which is more likely to lead to dopamine issues, addiction, and ED. Given that background, yeah, I not only consider it an obligation to make sure we're both satisfied, I'm happy to do so. And so is he.

 

Then I guess we're just special as are several others we know. I can't imagine being married to someone and being afraid that person would go elsewhere if I didn't have sex as often as they wanted.

 

Interestingly enough, many divorced couples I know were surprised by the divorce because their sex life was so good. So, I don't really think it's as big a factor as you think. I feel it has much more to do with who the person is than how much sex they are/aren't having. 

[EmseB]

lol, I survived. So did he. 

 

I know people do, we're a military family.

[Joanne]

 

 

 

I've read theories about porn addiction that the internet porn is more harmful than previous versions, because previously men were limited by a collection, but now there is endless supply which is more likely to lead to dopamine issues, addiction, and ED.

 

This is true. Age of first exposure is also a major factor.

[Joanne]

I don't think people are talking about rape, I think they are talking about one spouse initiating something, the other spouse being all meh, not really in the mood, the first spouse maybe giving the second spouse a back rub after which they may think hey I want to do this after all OR they may go no, really not tonight and that's the end of that.

 

This kind of stuff happens in my household quite frequently, and it's not always the same spouse initiating or sometimes being ultimately turned down.

 

Another view:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/learning-to-practice-cons_1_b_8229342.html

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[EmseB]

Unless the no is for months and years, then I don't understand the reason for an ongoing conversation. Dh doesn't need for me to have a conversation about why I'm not in the mood if I say no. If there was an important reason behind it, he knows it's something I would talk about. I don't need the reason or conversation from him either. I would find that such a huge waste of time just because there are times I don't feel like having sex. 

 

Maybe dh and I just don't keep score of who and how many times no is said. Maybe we're just people who don't think actual sex should be so elevated in a relationship that it requires all that's being discussed in this thread. We are much more than roommates (referencing a previous poster) even if we never had sex again. We have plenty of intimacy and it's not all sex. Don't get me wrong, though, we enjoy the act. Especially now that he works from home and dds are in ps.  ;) One of us saying no, which happens, just isn't a big deal. 

 

Ok, it's not always an ongoing, lengthy conversation.  But there is usually a reason given.  As I've stated many times, it would be odd for one of us to just say no and roll over.  Maybe it's my own insecurity that would see that as hurtful.

 

But it's not a whole conversation if I feel sick, or he's got a paper to write for school, or whatever.  It's just saying, "I was up all night with the baby, I just can't right now".  But if he were to treat my advances as an unwanted stranger hitting on him at a bar (as suggested up thread and in which case I would definitely find a cold shoulder or flat no to be an appropriate response) I would feel hurt.  Much of what you say here is what I agree with.  We don't keep score or anything like that.  I'm not sure where you are getting some of your inferences you've made here.

 

To the bolded, people here who have said they or their spouse might actually have sex when they don't necessarily feel like it were vilified for promoting rape culture of all things.

[HeatherL]

 No means no, I'm not sure means no, I thought I was ready but I'm not means no, 

 

I really like this part.  I am the mom to sons (not old enough for this talk yet), but it does worry me that they can put themselves in positions that can cause trouble without intending to.  (I'm talking about sex in the gray area, when they are too immature to read between lines or interpret what's not being said - I DO NOT mean forcing themselves on someone blatantly saying "NO!")

[Joker]

If you've gone years without having sex with your spouse and you're both physically healthy, I'd assume that you are both asexual, both have a medical or hormonal issue, or one of you has cheated.   I honestly think assuming it's okay for two adults to go years without sex is so naive you're asking to be cheated on.

 

Note: this is not the same as being in a long distance relationship due to deployment, etc.  However cheating is frequently what ends a relationship when distance is a factor.

 

 

We haven't gone years. Your posts are kind of all over the place. Sometimes you say months, sometimes you say weeks, sometimes you say years. I started responding to you based on the idea that if a spouse says no then the other spouse will look for it elsewhere. I stand by that not being a marriage I want to be in. Thankfully, I'm not. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Joker

[Joanne]

Each of us has free will and is free do what he/she wants within the boundaries of the law. Do what you wish- you are the one who will have to answer for your actions to a higher authority some day. We're all sinners and every last one of us is in need of forgiveness for the mistakes we have made.

 

I am not actually having sex, casual, committed, or otherwise.

 

But I think your heavy handed "answer to a higher authority" and "we're all sinners" and "mistakes we have made" is inappropriate and disingenuous with regard to who you are responding to. You know I am not a Christian and that I don't share your worldview.

 

My post in response to yours wasn't *personal* - it responded to the content of your post.

 

You, on the other hand, condemned me to hell.

 

See the difference?

[Tsuga]

I really like this part. I am the mom to sons (not old enough for this talk yet), but it does worry me that they can put themselves in positions that can cause trouble without intending to. (I'm talking about sex in the gray area, when they are too immature to read between lines or interpret what's not being said - I DO NOT mean forcing themselves on someone blatantly saying "NO!")

Teens also need to realize that we ALL sometimes hear what we want to hear and that the sex drive is very powerful. It is the responsibility of every young man to realize that and to actively keep himself in check: "am I listening to what she is really saying or to what I want to hear?"

 

There is no excuse for rape. However understanding how date rape occurs can help young people develop the character needed to do the right thing. If you don't know how people fall then you are not as equipped to keep yourself steady.

[DesertBlossom]

Expand on "sexual need" please, I am not sure I am understanding you.

I do not put anyone else's sexual desire above my own, is that what you are asking? Do I respect him? Yes. Does respect mean having sex when I do not want to because it is his need? No.

 

I do think sex is a need. If I go too long without it I get ornery. DH gets physically uncomfortable. And we've made a commitment to each other that those are needs we are only going to fulfill with one another.  I don't think it's wrong to occasionally put someone else's needs above your own, assuming that both spouses do that for each other at different times. When we get into the mindset what that we want or don't want is always more important than what our spouse wants or doesn't want, than the relationship is eventually going to have problems.  There has to be give and take.  It's okay to say no sometimes. But it's also okay to say yes when you know it's something your spouse needs, even if you don't at the moment.

[Laura Corin]

I do think sex is a need. If I go too long without it I get ornery. DH gets physically uncomfortable. And we've made a commitment to each other that those are needs we are only going to fulfill with one another.  I don't think it's wrong to occasionally put someone else's needs above your own, assuming that both spouses do that for each other at different times. When we get into the mindset what that we want or don't want is always more important than what our spouse wants or doesn't want, than the relationship is eventually going to have problems.  There has to be give and take.  It's okay to say no sometimes. But it's also okay to say yes when you know it's something your spouse needs, even if you don't at the moment.

 

I've been trying to work this out.  I spend my whole time doing things for other people that I'd rather not do (cooking, changing beds, picking up after the dog, any chore in the first half of the day that involves bending over, because of Husband's bad back).  That's all external to me.  That's not sex.

 

Now, sometimes I have a thought along the lines of, 'Well, I'd rather read a book, but perhaps if I got going I'd rather have sex'.  But that's just going on in my head and might lead to a 'yes'.  Once I've spoken a 'no' then any form of 'trying to warm me up' would feel like someone trying to take over my body.  I've never had to explain this to Husband, and we both act in the same way.

[EmseB]

I've been trying to work this out. I spend my whole time doing things for other people that I'd rather not do (cooking, changing beds, picking up after the dog, any chore in the first half of the day that involves bending over, because of Husband's bad back). That's all external to me. That's not sex.

 

Now, sometimes I have a thought along the lines of, 'Well, I'd rather read a book, but perhaps if I got going I'd rather have sex'. But that's just going on in my head and might lead to a 'yes'. Once I've spoken a 'no' then any form of 'trying to warm me up' would feel like someone trying to take over my body. I've never had to explain this to Husband, and we both act in the same way.

I think most of us, even if we aren't exactly on the same page as our spouse all the time, generally don't liken the deed to a chore akin to picking up after the dog. Yikes.

[DesertBlossom]

I've been trying to work this out. I spend my whole time doing things for other people that I'd rather not do (cooking, changing beds, picking up after the dog, any chore in the first half of the day that involves bending over, because of Husband's bad back). That's all external to me. That's not sex.

 

Now, sometimes I have a thought along the lines of, 'Well, I'd rather read a book, but perhaps if I got going I'd rather have sex'. But that's just going on in my head and might lead to a 'yes'. Once I've spoken a 'no' then any form of 'trying to warm me up' would feel like someone trying to take over my body. I've never had to explain this to Husband, and we both act in the same way.

And I agree with this. If I say no, either verbally or with body language, DH would not keep trying. And I know DH well enough to know that he would not enjoy sex knowing he forced me into it. He just wouldn't.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of this.... I've had 6 babies and between pregnancy and nursing I probably could go MONTHS perfectly content to roll over in bed each night dead tired without any sort of "need" for anything beyond a snuggle. But even if I'm feeling that way, DH isn't necessarily feeling that way. I might be content to fall asleep. I might even prefer to fall asleep. But I also love DH and I like making him happy. I like doing things for him. So even when my body isn't screaming YES! I still find satisfaction in meeting his needs. I like knowing he comes to me and only me to meet those needs. So during those times, when I might be inclined to say no because I don't *need* it, I don't turn him down. At least, I don't turn him down more often than I say yes. But sometimes I do. Because I'm human and I need sleep or I really have a headache or something. But I try not to say no more often than I say yes.

Edited March 2, 2016 by DesertBlossom

[maize]

I think most of us, even if we aren't exactly on the same page as our spouse all the time, generally don't liken the deed to a chore akin to picking up after the dog. Yikes.

I consciously made the decision to not let it become a chore; I don't say yes if I know it will feel like a chore to me. Even if well meant (I do want dh to be happy after all!) I'm convinced I would resent it over time. In fact I've explained it just this way sometimes to dh when he gives me the puppy-dog begging look.

 

That's totally different in my mind from the times when I'm not sure or super eager but am willing to try getting into the mood. Those are "I'm potentially up to some fun" times, not "if I did it it would be just another chore so no" times.

Edited March 2, 2016 by maize

[Laura Corin]

I think most of us, even if we aren't exactly on the same page as our spouse all the time, generally don't liken the deed to a chore akin to picking up after the dog. Yikes.

 

You're right, that wasn't the best example: I was following on from 'things I do for other people that I don't fancy doing.'

[Melissa in Australia]

boy, sometimes reading threads are a real eye opener. I must be a sex crazy hussy. I have never said no ever. Neither has DH to me. If one of us feels like it the other is more than willing.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Pretty much what my parents said. Do whatever you want, but don't do anything you'd be ashamed of. Don't be irresponsible, because it's not just your life that you're messing with, it's a baby's. Don't use sex as a way to manipulate to get love. Don't use love as a way to manipulate to get sex. Real sex isn't at all like porn. There is nothing more wonderful than being with someone you're in love with who you know loves YOU back. Not a fantasy about you, but actually you. That the first time is awkward, painful, and horrible no matter who it's with. That orgasms are not the same thing as love, but your hormones might make you think they are if you have only had them with one person. That it's okay for a girl to choose to be sexually empowered and to have sex with anyone they want if that's actually what they want to do, but more often promiscuous behavior isn't about empowerment or equality, it's about not knowing their worth, and letting others exploit them.

 

That to be aware of slavery and sexual trafficking and the ways people manipulate girls to trap them into drug addiction, prostitution, or porn.

 

That even though it's not popular culture, there are people who wait until they get married to even kiss. And sometimes that's wonderful because they end up with someone who genuinely loves and treasures them. And sometimes they end up with Josh Duggar, or worse, someone who's actually gay but deceiving themselves (happened to a friend of the family so they know names here), so saving yourself is no guarantee you won't experience pain.

 

That sooner or later everyone is going to hurt you, but it's good to figure out who's worth the pain.

 

That to take a person's negative description of themselves at face value, because if someone tells you they are a jerk or they cheated on their last three boyfriends, they have decided their personal standard is that low and they will treat you exactly the way they just described. Don't be a savior, you're not going to change them. All you can do is not settle for someone who treats them poorly so they are open when the right one does come along.

Great advice

[marbel]

Nonverbal communication can be misinterpreted. There is no misinterpreting the word "no" (unless there is a safe word in place and it is understood by both people in advance).

 

FWIW I am open in my communication with my partner. If I am interested, but want to finish laundry/dishes/something else first, I say so. If it is something like laundry he helps. If it is something like crocheting and I want to finish a row, he waits. I would not say one thing when I mean something else and leave it up to him to figure out. That does not facility good communication and can cause tension. 

 

 

I think I see some of the disconnect.

 

If one of us is doing something, the other is not going to approach them for sex.

 

I'm in the middle of doing dishes or laundry?  He's not going to suggest anything.  He can see I'm doing something.  More likely, he's got his own work happening; he's not sitting around doing nothing but daydreaming about sex while I am doing chores.

 

If one of us isn't feeling well, the other will know it.  We live together; if he's sick, I know it.  He doesn't have to say "no, I'm sick."   If I am in a foul mood for whatever reason, or stressed about something that is going to happen the next day (for example), he's not going to approach me because he knows I wouldn't be amenable.  If one of us is clearly exhausted at the end of the day and practically falling asleep standing up, the other can tell it would be a non-starter.

 

So there's not much opportunity to say no.  Even if we did, it wouldn't be a flat no with nothing else. I think that is rude in a marriage [ETA: a loving, not abusive, one].  "No, I'm exhausted tonight."  "No, I think I'm coming down with something."  "No, I am too distracted thinking about the meeting I have tomorrow, once that's over I'm pretty sure I'll be more enthusiastic."  That's the kind of communication I think some of us are talking about.

 

On the other hand, if one of us is feeling down and could use some extra affection, and the other is feeling "meh, I am not really into this right now but I can see it would make him/her happy" then... we'll go for it and more likely than not, the "meh" feeling will go away.   Even if the "meh" feeling doesn't go away, it's still worth it.  If the feeling was beyond "meh" and into "this is torture" then there is another problem  and that has to be addressed.

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by marbel