s/o when should your kids have sex?

[Guest]

A girl has to draw the line somewhere.

Nobody better not WAKE Mama up when she's sleeping...

 

It's like that episode of Spongebob Squarepants where Patrick and Spongebob wake Sandy up from hibernation...

[Χά�ων]

No? I don't think I know what you mean.

 

Maybe part of my confusion is that physical affection is a normal part of our day. There's no definitive line being drawn where it's like "now we will touch each other with the understanding that we will sleep together, is that ok with you?" Things either end up there or they don't, but I can't think of a time where I've just said no, because...well, that would be extremely weird in the context of our relationship. That, and I do like him an awful lot. ;)

 

 

Not necessary around here.

 

Really, cannot imagine a situation that would come up in our relationship in which a safe word would be necessary.

 

Maybe we're too boring. Or just too aware and in tune with each other.

Quoting both to address at the same time.

 

The only situation where sex is involved where I know of where "no" does not always mean "no" is in the kink crowd and safe words are used instead, that is why I asked. 

 

I will stick with "no means no"

[abba12]

Regarding sexual comparability... I've never understood that argument, at all. 

 

I am high-drive, he is medium-drive.... sometimes he chooses to show his love for me by doing it anyway (which I suspect people will have less of an issue with than if I was doing it for him!) and sometimes I take care of myself and don't take his no personally. And sometimes the roles are reversed.

 

We have some different sexual interests. No big deal. Sometimes we do it gentle, sometimes we... don't lol. We both learn to compromise on our interests and have each learned to enjoy what the other likes (as well as the shared interests we have, and that we discussed before marriage). A couple of interests fall out of each others comfort zone, so we respect the 'no' and let it go, you don't get to have everything you want in life. 

 

Porn? Asked before marriage. Premature ejaculation? Seriously, you'd dump a guy for that? That can develop later in life as well. 

 

Just not seeing the whole comparability thing. Yep, our early sex sucked lol. In fact now, in our 7th year of marriage, I think it's better than it ever has been by a long shot, we're really getting the hang of this. I think that's how it should be. 

 

 

As for no means no, I got trapped into this debate on another thread the other week. All I can say is, different people have different boundaries. Also, it is possible to give prior consent, like 'I am ok with you rubbing my back if I'm not in the mood'. None of us are talking about husbands just doing it anyway, but hormones are fickle and sometimes a bit of 'warming up' isn't a bad thing, it's part of foreplay, and I personally consent to that form of foreplay even when I am not in the mood. DH knows my 'not really in the mood' from my 'absolutely not'. He would never continue if I said NO. But I don't respond to his interests initially with a NO every time, only when I truly mean it. I respond with a not really more often, and that not really sometimes turns into a yes and sometimes turns into a NO. 

[Χά�ων]

 

 

There is "no, but you can try to get me in the mood", and "no, don't even dare touch me". I don't think it feeds into rape culture to have the former be the default *inside* a marriage, saying the latter specifically if you're really not in the mood. I usually specify either way, e.g. "I'm not in the mood, so don't get your hopes up, but you can cuddle me and see if I change my mind" - usually I change my mind, but not always. Now, if "I'm *really* not in the mood today" got a bunch of kissing etc attempting to persuade me, that'd bother me.

 

 

 "No, but" is not "No"

 

No means no. 

[maize]

"No, but" is not "No"

 

No means no.

Then the rest of us are all talking about "No, but"

 

Not

 

"No"

[maize]

The initial quote from CW was about a spouse who was reluctant but might warm up to the idea, not a spouse fining a firm "No"

[Guest]

Really? You cannot see it? Wow.

 

Can you see how in a different context what is being advocating can be considered rape?

 

Being married or in a relationship does not change the meaning of the word "no" or that no reason needs to be given.

I have only read up to this post.

 

I think wires are getting crossed because the other ladies aremt talking about situations where ppl say "no," and their partner continues to pressure them...but rather situations where one partner says "ehhh..." and the other partner says ir demonstrates that they'll do that one thing...

 

Ykwim? Not no. Meh.

 

Have you seen This is Forty. Like that scene where they are brushing their teeth and paul rudd asks "you wanna?" And leslie mann is like "ulgh I dunno, I feel constipated. Do YOU want to?" And paul rudd is like, "well now!"

 

Like that.

[Χά�ων]

Wow.  I am not sure I have ever been so offended by a post on this board.  Although the post upthread about how women who've had only one partner really don't know if the sex is actually good or not is a close second.

 

 

No, we don't need them.

 

I don't know how to explain this any further without saying more about my personal life than one should say on a public message board.  All I can say is that you are picturing something far, far different from the reality of my life and, apparently, the lives of others here.

 

If I ever had to give a firm "no," it would mean no and would be accepted as no without complaint coercion, etc.  What I am either not communicating well, or you are not getting, is that we know each other well enough that it never gets to the point that one of us has to say "no." 

I am not sure why you would be offended unless.

 

No means no.

 

Maybe is a maybe. 

 

There is a difference between the two, and it is not minor.

 

People who say "no" but through a set of circumstances changed their mind, does not excuse or change the fact that they said no in the first place.

 

 

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[Guest]

As for no means no, I got trapped into this debate on another thread the other week. All I can say is, different people have different boundaries. Also, it is possible to give prior consent, like 'I am ok with you rubbing my back if I'm not in the mood'. None of us are talking about husbands just doing it anyway, but hormones are fickle and sometimes a bit of 'warming up' isn't a bad thing, it's part of foreplay, and I personally consent to that form of foreplay even when I am not in the mood. DH knows my 'not really in the mood' from my 'absolutely not'. He would never continue if I said NO. But I don't respond to his interests initially with a NO every time, only when I truly mean it. I respond with a not really more often, and that not really sometimes turns into a yes and sometimes turns into a NO.

Yeah, I think those of us who are saying there is such thing as a "turn the stove on low and maybe I'll cook after all" are not talking about any situation that looks, feels or in any way resembles abuse or rape or non-consent. I personally don't think I actually utter the word "no" if I really mean "make a case for it," but I'm imagining that even if I literally uttered the word "no," there would be body language and other intuitive language that, in a committed and intimate relationship, are not misunderstood. A no that might mean Convince me in a loving and committed marriage just has nothing whatsoever in common with someone being abused or dominated.

[Ausmumof3]

Sooo, safe words?

Yeah..: like "nah not in the mood tonight"

 

It's not about being pressured it's about sometimes choosing to make an effort for someone you love because you want to.

 

I will say a very literal reading of that verse - that you never ever say no is harmful, but I think the overall meaning is that you don't just let a relationship drift forever, if it isn't happening you try to figure out why and work around it.

[Ausmumof3]

My safe words are "Go Away." As long as whomever is being told to go away goes away, everyone is perfectly safe. ;)

😂😂😂

[Χά�ων]

I have only read up to this post.

 

I think wires are getting crossed because the other ladies aremt talking about situations where ppl say "no," and their partner continues to pressure them...but rather situations where one partner says "ehhh..." and the other partner says ir demonstrates that they'll do that one thing...

 

Ykwim? Not no. Meh.

 

Have you seen This is Forty. Like that scene where they are brushing their teeth and paul rudd asks "you wanna?" And leslie mann is like "ulgh I dunno, I feel constipated. Do YOU want to?" And paul rudd is like, "well now!"

 

Like that.

Possibly. But, I still wonder if those who hold to a certain world view say "no" and mean "no" but submit anyway. This opinion is based on years of reading on this board. 

 

But, No, still means no. If people are saying "no" and their partner is not respecting that then there are issues, no matter if they want to sugar coat it with bible verses or justify it becasue of marriage/relationship/love. If they are not using the word "no" in the situations and instead saying "meh" but are saying here that they are saying no then that is another issue on their part. 

 

I will say it again, "no means no"

 

 

I do not watch TV or movies and have never heard of "This is Forty". 

[Χά�ων]

I'm confused as to why anyone would stay in a marriage where they dynamic was to say no, devoid of any context as to why, and the other party scuffles off, embarrassed and lonely.

 

No might be enough legally, but it's not enough morally in an intimate, loving, and giving relationship.

 

I guess my no is more like "No, really not into it.  Don't feel well tonight <or> No, really not into it, I have a headache. Try again in an hour." 

 

If I said "No" alone, the no would be respected, but the lack of communication or consideration or respect on my part would be an issue.  Maybe not then, but it would be discussed within a week for sure.  Same for him.

 

I've heard stories from friends where one spouse would just say "No" and leave the other one feeling humiliated for having needs at all.  THOSE situations always involve emotional abuse and some degree of narcissism, and IME among friends, always lead to divorce.

 

Are those who are sensitive to needing to give a reason for respect sensitive because of an issue of abuse in the past, or is it really okay to be that rude to someone you love and not have them be offended by it?

In my relationship, neither one of us ask why after no is said. Sometimes an explanation is not given. It is not rude to not give a reason every single time. I am amazed that anyone thinks it is needed. I will not teach a daughter that she has to give a reason after saying "no". No is no. To expect someone to give a reason after saying no IS an uneven relationship dynamic. No one has to justify not wanting sex, marriage/relationship/love do not change that.

 

 

I am not speaking about a person saying "no" to sex as a way to control their partner or just be a jerk. That is another topic. 

 

Again, "No" means "no". An explanation is not required to make it valid. 

[zoobie]

Yes, I am hung up on the word "no".

 

The posts here defending it because marriage/love/relationship feeds into the prevalent rape culture in our society.

It's rarely posed as a straight up question here because the kids are always around. If either of us ever said "No and don't ask again tonight," we would respect that. I've certainly told him when I was touched out with babies not to even breathe in my direction. There have been discussions like is this a hell no please no one else touch me or is this a not right now because I'm in the middle of something. If the former, neither of us would continue the advances. Offering a back rub or affection would be purely for the affection's sake, not manipulation.

 

I absolutely believe there is marital rape. It's disgusting and not at all what I took from the spirit of the advice. Replace sex with anything else your partner asks of you. "Would you like to sit and have some coffee with me? I need someone to listen." You can say no and acknowledge the other person's needs and keep in mind that you need to schedule a chat asap. When I am talking about sex in the course of a healthy relationship, there's no coercion. I do have friends who are victims of marital rape. One woman's husband does not deposit the household money into her account until he gets his weekly BJ. That's rape.

[Χά�ων]

Yeah..: like "nah not in the mood tonight"

 

It's not about being pressured it's about sometimes choosing to make an effort for someone you love because you want to.

 

I will say a very literal reading of that verse - that you never ever say no is harmful, but I think the overall meaning is that you don't just let a relationship drift forever, if it isn't happening you try to figure out why and work around it.

 

Two way street, what about respecting the partner who does not want to and said no? 

 

I am not discussing the meaning of the verse. My partner was a minister, I leave that to him to figure out  ;) . I asked him about this thread and that verse, he said it is never ok to push when your partner says no. He did say the only exception he was aware of is in the kink crowd with safe words. That is why I asked about safe words, I had not thought of that and wanted to make sure I had not missed something.

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[hjffkj]

But in the context of the relationship the tone of the "no" can mean different things without a safe word being needed. So I can say no to my dh one night and he knows that I am 100% not receptive. But the next night I could say no and he'd know it meant "well if while we're cuddling and kissing I may change my mind." I also know when he means one no or the other. If that isn't how your relationship works then I'm glad you know what your boundaries are. But to say that people who have those different boundaries are in an unhealthy/abusive dynamic is wrong.

 

Now of course there are many marriages on which no does mean no and one spouse ignores the other and does what they want anyway. But that is not what anyone here is talking about.

[Χά�ων]

So basically...  you're hedging because you're worried not hedging is condoning abuse.  I may have only been active on here for less than five years, but I think it's safe to say those of us who think explanations are polite aren't in abusive relationships.

 

Unless you count the degree DH helps me derail my diet with chocolate every time it's the first day of my period, I'm not in an abusive relationship.

 

I have, previously, been in relationships with withholding, manipulative BPD jerks who levereged sex in abusive ways though.  So...  that's why I lean towards satisfying whatever desire DH has (within boundaries).

 

I'm not at all in a submit to my husband sort of relationship though.  I think of submission as a religious suggestion for a happy marriage - don't fight over small stuff or your relationship won't work, rather than a religious duty though.

 

Similar to my interpretation of forbidding premarital sex.  The law was made to serve us and not us the law, etc.

 

Explanations are never required. It is possible to say "No" without being a jerk. It is not either or. But the pressure to give an explanation "to be polite" is unhealthy. If someone feels they have to give an explanation then it is not a healthy relationship. 

 

I do not view putting out to satisfy a partner as healthy.

[Tsuga]

Wow.  I am not sure I have ever been so offended by a post on this board.  Although the post upthread about how women who've had only one partner really don't know if the sex is actually good or not is a close second.

 

 

I didn't say that people don't know whether or not sex is good. I wrote that they are not in a position to debate the relationship between attraction, chemistry, and sexual compatibility.

 

Honestly, if you love your partner and the sex is better than not having sex, it doesn't matter how good the sex you have is relative to the sex which you will not have in virtue of the fact that you are married.

 

Still, someone who has only had one partner really cannot be lecturing anybody about how they can discern whether or not someone is good in bed from how much chemistry there is--particularly not if that was the only CHEMISTRY they've had as well. That relationship needs more than two data points. If you have only one x coordinate and one y coordinate, that is not a line, that is a dot. A single data point. You can't talk about what one tells you about the other because you don't know.

 

And that is a matter of how knowledge and science work, not even about sex. As it happens we are talking about sex.

 

Good is relative. The relationship between chemistry and sexual compatibility for everyone (because remember, the poster was talking about generalities) is not relative...the trend or relationship depends on what people experience beyond the individual.

 

I hope that clarifies my position on that.

[marbel]

I am not sure why you would be offended unless.

 

No means no.

 

Maybe is a maybe. 

 

There is a difference between the two, and it is not minor.

 

People who say "no" but through a set of circumstances changed their mind, does not excuse or change the fact that they said no in the first place.

 

The offensive part was the comment about rape culture and posts like mine "feeding into" it.

Edited March 2, 2016 by marbel

[Ravin]

How does that work? Do your teens not go anywhere without a chaperone?

 

 

What would a prenup do? I got married at 20yo without a prenup, since I was so young I didn't have any assets anyway, and any assets obtained during marriage would be split 50-50 since it was a communal property state. Are you talking about kids who *do* have assets despite being *young*?

 

 

There is "no, but you can try to get me in the mood", and "no, don't even dare touch me". I don't think it feeds into rape culture to have the former be the default *inside* a marriage, saying the latter specifically if you're really not in the mood. I usually specify either way, e.g. "I'm not in the mood, so don't get your hopes up, but you can cuddle me and see if I change my mind" - usually I change my mind, but not always. Now, if "I'm *really* not in the mood today" got a bunch of kissing etc attempting to persuade me, that'd bother me.

 

As far as my own kids is concerned, my 8.5yo said something along the lines of sex being for marriage, and I haven't corrected him. I don't need a long, drawn-out conversations with an 8yo about the exact details of when *exactly* a non-marriage relationship is good enough. I'll get to that when he's older. He'll also get the "you have hands for a reason" talk when he's 11-12yo or so. And the usual talks about STDs, pregnancy, etc etc etc.

 

Since both my kids are boys, they'll also get long lectures about how even if they are okay with abortion, and the girl says she's okay with abortion or that she'd give the kid up for adoption, that if an accident were to happen, they'd be powerless to make her have an abortion/adoption, that hormonal teenage girls quite often decide to have the baby after all, and that the legal system will make them pay lots of money for 18 years.

 

The process of working out a prenuptial agreement would help a young couple work through the practicalities of the financial aspect of the commitment they are getting into. It's true that young people don't have many assets; debts are the main thing that have messed up life situations for people I've known who married young and then divorced. In particular, one spouse running up debts (often with the other not even knowing about them at the time) and then the other one being left holding the bag in a community property state.

[zoobie]

The initial quote from CW was about a spouse who was reluctant but might warm up to the idea, not a spouse fining a firm "No"

I thought CrimsonWife was taking about internal thought process BEFORE the spouse answers yes or no. I maintain that saying yes even when I initially might think "blerg" has worked for me. If I have a good reason to say no, I say no. And DH respects it. If he initiates, I try to say yes or "convince me" rather than "no." I don't want him to feel like he is always getting rejected or has to work or beg for it. And vice versa if I'm the one nuzzling his neck. ;)

 

I have only read up to this post.

 

I think wires are getting crossed because the other ladies aremt talking about situations where ppl say "no," and their partner continues to pressure them...but rather situations where one partner says "ehhh..." and the other partner says ir demonstrates that they'll do that one thing...

 

Ykwim? Not no. Meh.

 

Have you seen This is Forty. Like that scene where they are brushing their teeth and paul rudd asks "you wanna?" And leslie mann is like "ulgh I dunno, I feel constipated. Do YOU want to?" And paul rudd is like, "well now!"

 

Like that.

:rofl: Yes! Honesty.

[Χά�ων]

The offensive part was the comment about rape culture and posts like mine "feeding into" it.

Do you not see it does?!

[Ausmumof3]

Possibly. But, I still wonder if those who hold to a certain world view say "no" and mean "no" but submit anyway. This opinion is based on years of reading on this board.

 

But, No, still means no. If people are saying "no" and their partner is not respecting that then there are issues, no matter if they want to sugar coat it with bible verses or justify it becasue of marriage/relationship/love. If they are not using the word "no" in the situations and instead saying "meh" but are saying here that they are saying no then that is another issue on their part.

 

I will say it again, "no means no"

 

 

I do not watch TV or movies and have never heard of "This is Forty".

I think you might have preconceptions that are playing into this discussion? We are not talking about one partner badgering, pestering or changing a no. We are talking about non verbal communication. Like you know, maybe I'm really into reading a book and dh shows he's interested in a change of activity. Maybe I wanna finish my book but instead I think, yep I'll give it a go and see how it works out. I would have missed out on a lot of awesome times if I'd just stuck with doing what I felt like in the moment.

 

Secondly I think when people are talking about how those in a one partner marriage haven't experienced variety etc, well, we all have stuff we haven't experienced. Those who have experienced variety actually haven't experienced what it's like to have only been with one person ever, and the level of intimacy that can come with that. I'm not saying that to put down relationships where that's not the case, just that no one has experienced everything and that's ok. Everyone has different life experiences. We are likely to advise our kids to try what worked well for us.

[zoobie]

Do you not see it does?!

No. I'm quoting the original post below.

 

Our church required premarital couples' counseling with a MFT and this topic was actually discussed in our sessions. The MFT advised a "don't turn your spouse down unless you have a REALLY good reason to" policy and keeping a stock of supplies to help facilitate getting the initially reluctant spouse in the mood IYKWIM. Totally embarrassing at the time but it did turn out to be great advice.

Nowhere in that does it state anything about proceeding without consent. Keeping lube and vibrators around in case one spouse CONSENTS but needs a little assistance is not anywhere near the same planet as advocating rape. Those are to be used after the spouse consents. It does not say proceed even after the spouse turns you down. Certainly there are cults that advocate marital rape. This advice is not "you are not allowed to deny your husband." It's hey, don't automatically say no. It could be fun.

[EmseB]

I don't know how to explain this any further without saying more about my personal life than one should say on a public message board. All I can say is that you are picturing something far, far different from the reality of my life and, apparently, the lives of others here.

This is where I'm at in this convo. I just can't think of a time where communication has worked as a flat out no. Really in any area of our marriage, but particularly not in a rejection of intimacy. I don't feel like explaining further details because it doesn't mean that I've been manipulated or coerced or guilted into anything.

[Pam in CT]

re correlation between education and age of marriage

There was a statistic in one of my college psychology textbooks about how as long as both the bride and groom were at least 21 and neither had been married previously, there is actually NO correlation between age at marriage and divorce risk after controlling for education and income. That is, a 22 year old upper-middle-class college graduate bride had the EXACT SAME risk for divorce as a 32 year old upper-middle-class college graduate bride.

 

This was a very handy statistic to have on hand in the argument I had with my parents when they claimed I was "too young" to get married and that I should wait to the "proper" age (30 +/- maybe a couple years).

 

Yes, most studies I've seen do suggest that later marriage is correlated with more education (which makes a lot of sense).  And as always there are various data sets.  In the particular one I linked upthread, if you scroll down to Table 6 you can compare divorce rates controlled for education (it's a bit onerous -- you have to go back and forth to compare the rows for "less than high school diploma" for each age group, then "hs graduate no college" etc...) the divorce rate is higher for younger marriage even when controlled for education.

 

 

 

A negative relationship between the age at which the marriage began and the propensity for the marriage to end in divorce is also apparent. Among marriages that began at ages 15 to 22, 58 percent ended in divorce. Of marriages that began at ages 23 to 28, 43 percent ended in divorce. Of marriages that began at ages 29 to 34, the percentage that ends in divorce declines further to 36 percent. Hence, the data support the finding that, on average, people who marry later are more likely than younger couples to stay married.

(those averages don't correct for education but the breakdowns within the table do)

 

 

But that said, the still-growing frontal lobe science would say 21 is on average a good deal more mature than 18 or 19.... and I do "hope" my kids finish college, which is of course possible, but harder with a spouse and particularly with kids...

 

... and when I encourage them not to feel pressured into early marriage, I'm not suggesting wait until 30 (if they find their partner by then).  I have encouraged them to finish college.  We'll see... given that the decision is theirs, not mine. 

[Χά�ων]

I think you might have preconceptions that are playing into this discussion? We are not talking about one partner badgering, pestering or changing a no. We are talking about non verbal communication. Like you know, maybe I'm really into reading a book and dh shows he's interested in a change of activity. Maybe I wanna finish my book but instead I think, yep I'll give it a go and see how it works out. I would have missed out on a lot of awesome times if I'd just stuck with doing what I felt like in the moment.

 

 

Nonverbal communication can be misinterpreted. There is no misinterpreting the word "no" (unless there is a safe word in place and it is understood by both people in advance).

 

FWIW I am open in my communication with my partner. If I am interested, but want to finish laundry/dishes/something else first, I say so. If it is something like laundry he helps. If it is something like crocheting and I want to finish a row, he waits. I would not say one thing when I mean something else and leave it up to him to figure out. That does not facility good communication and can cause tension. 

 

[Tsuga]

But there is.  Because two people generally communicate and there's give and take.

 

No, there's not really. I said no, he had sex with me anyway. My partner asked repeatedly and was denied for eight years. EIGHT YEARS. Like, his entire 20s. One person can't just tell the other "you have to compromise, you have to respect me." I mean you can say it but what if they decide not to listen?

 

I never, ever understood this. It's almost as if... I mean if that were marriage, then there would never be divorce! Anyone could put up with someone who compromised. I could have put up with all kinds of things but there was no compromise. My partner just didn't have sex. Period. She said no and she said she couldn't compromise.

 

Doesn't every relationship have to find a way to navigate between, "I really don't want to right now" and "I really do want to right now"?

 

Why... no. Certainly not. Why do you think some men post resentful diatribes on Facebook that "you'll never get it again, fellas, so don't get married" or why some women will post vehement "no means no" screeds? Because they were respected? Because their partners listened? They don't have to listen at all. You're married to them. They get to do whatever they want--what are you going to do, get a divorce? Nope, marriage is a terrible starting point for negotiation with someone who doesn't care about you. And you can say, "Well that's sad," but that's just it: marriage can be so sad, it can be the most painful thing in the world. It takes TWO to make it work. One person can't win when the other knows that they have to work and takes advantage.

 

OF COURSE normal people listen. Of course! But if we were talking only about normal, healthy people, well gee. Then what do you need a piece of paper for, anyway?

 

I will say that rejection is hard to take in a marriage.  Over and over again; I don't know what that's like.  You don't want to be intimate once in awhile, ok?  But you consistently say "I just can't right now" and the other person is supposed to just say okay with no discussion -- I would imagine it would start to hurt.

 

I spent three years having sex crying. Yes, it hurts. He spent eight years not having sex except on his birthday. Yes, it hurts. And imagine your kid, going into marriage, thinking it will be like what you had, but their spouse is duplicitous or unwell, and they get what we got. Well, then you might change your tune on what they need to know or whether you believe in marriage as you do.

 

​Sorry for the bold typeface, it was hard to get it to change color for some reason.

 

[abba12]

Do you not see it does?!

 

This whole thing is just.... wow. No, we don't see that it does. It doesn't.

 

This kind of closed minded, 'I am the only important person here' attitude is what gives a lot of womens rights advocates a bad name. Yep, no means no. But, your partner has needs too. You shouldn't give up yourself to them, but you should assess WHY there is such a mismatch if this is happening regularly. And it's not wrong to feel eh about sex, but do it anyway sometimes, and often find you enjoy it by the end. Just like sometimes I feel eh about playing a game with my kid, but I still do that. 

 

If it's an unhealthy dynamic then it's one a majority of posters here seem to be sharing. 

 

And I personally would be very offended if my husband just said 'No' for no reason, with no discussion. He would be in reverse. In a healthy marriage, communication happens. If he was not communicating why he was suddenly disinterested in sex I'd be really worried something was wrong, I'd begin suspecting porn or an affair. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by abba12

[Χά�ων]

No. I'm quoting the original post below.

 

 

Nowhere in that does it state anything about proceeding without consent. Keeping lube and vibrators around in case one spouse CONSENTS but needs a little assistance is not anywhere near the same planet as advocating rape. Those are to be used after the spouse consents. It does not say proceed even after the spouse turns you down. Certainly there are cults that advocate marital rape. This advice is not "you are not allowed to deny your husband." It's hey, don't automatically say no. It could be fun.

Rape is not as black and white as many believe. To preplan ways to circumvent a spouses original declining of sex is not healthy and puts pressure on the spouse to consent. Coerced consent is not true consent. "No" is "no". I am not really sure why this is hard to understand.  

 

 

 

 

Quote that you quoted down here because I have no clue how to insert into your quote

 

 

stock of supplies to help facilitate getting the initially reluctant spouse in the mood

[Ausmumof3]

Nonverbal communication can be misinterpreted. There is no misinterpreting the word "no" (unless there is a safe word in place and it is understood by both people in advance).

 

FWIW I am open in my communication with my partner. If I am interested, but want to finish laundry/dishes/something else first, I say so. If it is something like laundry he helps. If it is something like crocheting and I want to finish a row, he waits. I would not say one thing when I mean something else and leave it up to him to figure out. That does not facility good communication and can cause tension.

 

Yep. And if non verbal communication is misinterpreted I can issue a flat no and that is the end of it.

[Χά�ων]

This whole thing is just.... wow. No, we don't see that it does. It doesn't.

 

This kind of closed minded, 'I am the only important person here' attitude is what gives a lot of womens rights advocates a bad name. Yep, no means no. But, your partner has needs too. You shouldn't give up yourself to them, but you should assess WHY there is such a mismatch if this is happening regularly. And it's not wrong to feel eh about sex, but do it anyway sometimes, and often find you enjoy it by the end. Just like sometimes I feel eh about playing a game with my kid, but I still do that. 

 

If it's an unhealthy dynamic then it's one a majority of posters here seem to be sharing. 

 

And I personally would be very offended if my husband just said 'No' for no reason, with no discussion. He would be in reverse. In a healthy marriage, communication happens. If he was not communicating why he was suddenly disinterested in sex I'd be really worried something was wrong, I'd begin suspecting porn or an affair. 

I am pretty sure there are only a few posters here posting that they agree.

 

Women's rights advocates? Where did that come from? 

 

Yes, I matter. My feelings matter. As does everyone else's. I have never said it was a one way street. Men have the right to say "No" as well and to have that "no" respected.

 

As for their needs, masturbation is an option.

 

I have posted about my communication with my partner. I view it as vital to a healthy relationship. That is part of why I am so big on "no" means "no".

[Xahm]

I completely get why people would get super creeped out by the advice not to say no to your spouse, especially when it is given as a biblical mandate. If you have only known people who would be common sensical about this advice, as I believe all those defending it on this thread are, then of course it sounds like common sense to you.

BUT, a lot of the advice I was given as a college student in Christian circles was straight from the likes of Michael and Debi Pearl, who advocated terrible things that would include women submitting to marital rape. My friends and I just got wide eyes and backed away slowly from people who thought like that, but as a result, whenever anyone starts quoting certain scriptures I start listening carefully to key phrases to see what they are really meaning. 

No one here is supporting anything that leads to rape culture, but some are, unintentionally, using some arguments that have been twisted and used by others to support marital rape.

[Ausmumof3]

There are a lot more reasons why a spouse might be disinterested than 'porn' or 'affair'. Especially in a long term, decades long relationship.

 

I'm one of those dreadful harridans who also believes no means no, in marriage or out of it. I don't feel the need to provide context every single time I say no. Sometimes there is no context. Creating a social expectation where women in particular need an 'excuse' to decline sexual activity is weird and unhealthy to me.

 

I'm not even a fan of this whole idea that spouses 'deserve' sex from and with each other. No. Ugh. Nobody 'deserves' my sexual services, not even the person I'm married to, and vice versa.

But surely there is a place between the extreme of everyone in the marriage should say yes all the time and the other extreme. I think it would be very hard to maintain a monogamous relationship with a normal drive where the answer was no for years at a time with no explanation whatsoever.

[Tsuga]

 

 

You shouldn't give up yourself to them, but you should assess WHY there is such a mismatch if this is happening regularly.

 

I know! I know!

 

Maybe because you got married before you knew what you wanted in a partner?

 

I think this just highlights what people are saying when they say, it's wonderful if you get married and both are normal human beings who can work things out such that both of you can lead a basically fulfilling married life. No it won't be perfect, but you'll both put in the effort and learn and compromise and make it as beautiful as it can be.

 

And that is WONDERFUL. 

 

But when you get married young, to someone you have never had sex with, never having had sex, and in some cases, barely sexually mature--then there is a very big chance you could be marrying someone with whom you will have to bend over backwards for to achieve some level of compatibility, and there is also a chance you are marrying someone who has absolutely no intention of bending over backwards, though they think they will. But as children, adolescents, you don't know.

 

Just because you got lucky doesn't mean "that's how it works for good people". It just doesn't work that way.

[Χά�ων]

But surely there is a place between the extreme of everyone in the marriage should say yes all the time and the other extreme. I think it would be very hard to maintain a monogamous relationship with a normal drive where the answer was no for years at a time with no explanation whatsoever.

The only people talking about "no" as always without explanation to every request are those who are trying to justify "no" not always meaning "no". 

[Ausmumof3]

Explanations are never required. It is possible to say "No" without being a jerk. It is not either or. But the pressure to give an explanation "to be polite" is unhealthy. If someone feels they have to give an explanation then it is not a healthy relationship.

 

I do not view putting out to satisfy a partner as healthy.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this post then?

[zoobie]

Rape is not as black and white as many believe. To preplan ways to circumvent a spouses original declining of sex is not healthy and puts pressure on the spouse to consent. Coerced consent is not true consent. "No" is "no". I am not really sure why this is hard to understand.

 

 

 

 

Quote that you quoted down here because I have no clue how to insert into your quote

What I'm talking about and what the advice means to me is only about the decision making in your own head. Spouse says, "you wanna?" and nothing else. In your own head, you're thinking, "Ugh. I don't feel sexy. But I have no good reason to refuse and it could wind up being pretty good..." So say "Yes, but grab the goods." This is not advising one spouse to nag, berate, coerce, guilt, aggressively fondle the other until she gives up to get rid of you. You keep lube and whatever fun things on hand for the initially reluctant spouse who of her own accord without undue burden freely and lovingly gave consent.

[Joker]

In our home we sometimes say not today or I don't feel like it. No other explanation is needed or expected. I also wouldn't dare try to persuade him unless he explicitly said he maybe could be convinced. He wouldn't try to change my mind either as he knows I know my own mind, he knows I love him, and it's not at all neglectful to say no sometimes. FTR, we've been married 18 years and are happy.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

No is no, every time. Married, not married. Referring to sexual relations, referring to something else.

 

 

No is enough. No excuse needed.

[Χά�ων]

What I'm talking about and what the advice means to me is only about the decision making in your own head. Spouse says, "you wanna?" and nothing else. In your own head, you're thinking, "Ugh. I don't feel sexy. But I have no good reason to refuse and it could wind up being pretty good..." So say "Yes, but grab the goods." This is not advising one spouse to nag, berate, coerce, guilt, aggressively fondle the other until she gives up to get rid of you. You keep lube and whatever fun things on hand for the initially reluctant spouse who of her own accord without undue burden freely and lovingly gave consent.

That thought process helps me understand where you are coming from. If I was thinking "Ugh." I would say No. The "But I have no good reason to refuse"  Would NEVER enter my thought process and is completely foreign to me. I cannot fathom even having this thought and I am not sure how to even address it. The initial feeling of "Ugh." is a GOOD reason in my mind to refuse. I am not sure why anyone would not view it as a good reason. The last part, "and it could wind up being pretty good..." Well, it is always good here, but that does not change the initial "Ugh." 

 

If I am at "Ugh." Then the answer is No. 

[Ausmumof3]

That thought process helps me understand where you are coming from. If I was thinking "Ugh." I would say No. The "But I have no good reason to refuse" Would NEVER enter my thought process and is completely foreign to me. I cannot fathom even having this thought and I am not sure how to even address it. The initial feeling of "Ugh." is a GOOD reason in my mind to refuse. I am not sure why anyone would not view it as a good reason. The last part, "and it could wind up being pretty good..." Well, it is always good here, but that does not change the initial "Ugh."

 

If I am at "Ugh." Then the answer is No.

This makes sense. What happens when the response is ugh for years at a time though? Do you have the expectation of a monogamous relationship?

[EmseB]

That thought process helps me understand where you are coming from. If I was thinking "Ugh." I would say No. The "But I have no good reason to refuse"  Would NEVER enter my thought process and is completely foreign to me. I cannot fathom even having this thought and I am not sure how to even address it. The initial feeling of "Ugh." is a GOOD reason in my mind to refuse. I am not sure why anyone would not view it as a good reason. The last part, "and it could wind up being pretty good..." Well, it is always good here, but that does not change the initial "Ugh." 

 

If I am at "Ugh." Then the answer is No. 

 

 

I don't think it's a good reason because I'm an introvert with a lazy streak and if an initial feeling of "ugh" stopped me from doing things I should do for others in my family, I'd hardly ever do anything.  But, most things I attempt after the intial ugh turn out to be pretty enjoyable, and the activity in question is probably on the top of that list.  I know myself well enough to know that "ugh" is something I'd like to get over so I can enjoy myself.

[Ausmumof3]

I don't think it's a good reason because I'm an introvert with a lazy streak and if an initial feeling of "ugh" stopped me from doing things I should do for others in my family, I'd hardly ever do anything. But, most things I attempt after the intial ugh turn out to be pretty enjoyable, and the activity in question is probably on the top of that list. I know myself well enough to know that "ugh" is something I'd like to get over so I can enjoy myself.

This is so me! If I had an invite to a party my default feeling would be ugh. However if I went I'd mostly have a good time and it's not healthy to stay home alone all the time.

 

However if the person who sent the invite to the party attempted to pressure me into going I'd probably say no out of sheer stubbornness. ðŸ˜

[Χά�ων]

This makes sense. What happens when the response is ugh for years at a time though? Do you have the expectation of a monogamous relationship?

I am not talking about years. Someone else said years. Saying "No" on Monday does not mean the person will say "No" on Wednesday. I am a bit flummoxed that "years" keeps being inserted into this conversation.  

 

If it is years there is possibly deeper issues in the relationship that will not be fixed by having sex when feeling "Ugh."

[Katy]

nm
 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Katy

[Χά�ων]

I don't think it's a good reason because I'm an introvert with a lazy streak and if an initial feeling of "ugh" stopped me from doing things I should do for others in my family, I'd hardly ever do anything.  But, most things I attempt after the intial ugh turn out to be pretty enjoyable, and the activity in question is probably on the top of that list.  I know myself well enough to know that "ugh" is something I'd like to get over so I can enjoy myself.

As an introvert who can be lazy (going by the laundry mountain today) I still cannot understand. 

[Xahm]

Point of information: Masturbation can happen without any porn whatsoever.