Needy friend, mostly a vent

[Xahm]

This isn't a JAWM, but please don't tear me apart. I'm pregnant and my husband's travelling for work for two more weeks while I'm home with two preschoolers. I just need to get things off my chest and hear an adult perspective outside the echo chamber of my own head. This is, therefore, going to be long.

I have a friend who has kids roughly the same ages as mine. From my perspective, we hang out because we get along and our kids play well together. I would love to have a mom-best-friend with whom I really click and can share my heart and soul with, but she isn't it for me and I'm fine with having a regular mom-friend. (I hesitate to add this because it can be taken badly, but my husband and I have significantly high iqs, high enough that it limits the pool of people with whom we can have deep connections. We're fine with valuing people for other things and enjoying casual friendships based on common interests, kids, etc, but I'm an introvert so I really don't need too much of that.)

From my friend's perspective, we and our children are best-friends-forever. She's made photo albums for our girls saying so, and a similar album is on the way for my two year old son. She says things like "You better not replace me with your sister-in-law. You can hang out, but I'm your best friend." and "You can never move away. I need you too much." I would think it was mostly a joke except she says something like this every time we are together. She and her husband have brought up the idea of moving out of state and her husband asked her if we would move too to be with them. I know because she then asked me if we would. I pointed out that all our extended family lives here, so no, we would not. It made me wonder what she says to him for him to think that's a possibility. (Our husbands don't hang out, though she tries to engineer this.)

I enjoy getting together with her weekly, but I don't want it to be more and wouldn't mind slightly less. Our kids enjoy it, too, though neither of mine really enjoy her two year old (who has been assigned to be my son's bff). She has no extended family in town and we have lots and lots, so I'm very glad that we've been able to give her some familial support when she has needed it. She is genuinely a very kind person and works hard to avoid gossip or mean talk, which I appreciate and makes our get-togethers more pleasant.

The difficulties are basically that she has unrealistic expectations of our future together and that she's exhausting. She wants us to start a mini-co-op together, but our children, though similar ages, are at wildly different levels of maturity. Hers are basically typical children on the later end of normal regarding meeting milestones. We rejoice together when they hit them! Mine are a little ahead physically and significantly ahead cognitively (not bragging, just fact, though I'd be happy to brag if you'd like and don't really get to do that in real life). She organizes preschool-type activities for them and it leaves her worried about her children and me trying to reassure her. I finally told her the level at which my three year old is working, just by way of saying "don't compare our kids. It's mine that are abnormal," and her response was "Do you think my daughter could do that?" I gave her other ideas of good things that she could do now with her daughter, games and story-telling kinds of things. Part of it is that she is determined to homeschool and is raring to start seatwork asap. Another part is that she is not confident in her own education or ability to teach, so she is looking for that magic key to make it all work swimmingly.

It is exhausting for me to be friends with her (granted, I am an introvert). She tends to listen and believe whatever I say. For example, her kids are allowed to watch the shows I have approved. We hadn't talked about tv in about a year, and I recently discovered they were still watching repeats of those same few shows, so I gave her an expanded list and now her kids can watch those. While it's flattering to have power like that, it's mostly weird. Really weird. I feel like I have to be careful to not make any overt suggestions because they get taken as the laws of the land, so I spend time and energy helping her come to her own conclusions. This practice will be helpful as I work with my kids later, but it's a lot of work to be taking with a grown woman. More worrisome example: One of her kids has a health problem affecting one of the senses and she was viewing it as really no big deal. I pointed out that it wasn't a huge problem, but if the child grows up lacking part of that sense (I'm being vague for privacy), there could be major developmental ramifications. She had never, even with lots of doctors visits, thought of that. She's really, really nice, though, and wants the very best for her kids and mine.

I guess I want reassurance. Reassurance that it's okay if I gradually cut back the time I spend with her, increasing it with my sisters-in-law and maybe even new friends I make! Reassurance that she, and her kids will be fine. I know some of our mutual acquaintances would step in some when she needs help and support, but generally no one has tons of extra time and energy at this point in our parenting journey. I think she needs her mom to move to town! That would solve a lot.

I'll end this here. I feel like a horrible person when she gushes about our eternal friendship and I respond with things like "yeah, we've had a fun time today," so if you think I'm horrible after reading this, please know I feel plenty bad already.

[fairfarmhand]

I don't think your horrible or braggy. Sometimes there's just an awkward match. And I know what you mean about not wanting a close friendship with someone who is always going to need your opinions and presence so badly to function. That'd drive me bonkers too.

 

I think I'd keep on being vague and while not completely dump her (since the kids like each other) I might get a little more busy with "plans." "Ah...sorry. This week I'm not available. Next week, might be an option. I'll call you on Tuesday and maybe that Friday we can do something." And then I would actually call her. and get together, but I would start stretching out the days between get togethers.

 

I'd also stop doing academic, co-op things with the kids. Just let them play Barbies or ride bikes. That comparison things is so awkward. If she wants advice, give her 2 or 3 homeschooling books with several different view points so she can see the options. Encourage her to come to her own conclusions about things.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I am sure you will get more tactful advice from others posters, but I just wanted to say that you are much nicer than I am.  I would have dropped her already.  She sounds kind of creepy.  I'm sure she's very nice, but still creepy.  ((hugs))

[zoobie]

That sounds way creepy. I'd be backing off like Road Runner. 

[PrairieSong]

You're not a bad person for acknowledging that this is a very lop-sided relationship. I've been in a couple of those and in both cases I backed away. Honestly, I'd be so uncomfortable with someone who is that needy (she really mentions how much she needs you every time she sees you?) and I would start limiting contact with her. Get involved with your extended family and with other friends. I understand that you don't want to hurt her, but do you want to go on like this for years, with her thinking that you two and your kids are all BFF's when that isn't true?

[happi duck]

You're not a terrible person.

 

Some people are wired for wanting a *best* friend plus our culture makes it seem the norm. Some people pursue a *bestie* because it's perceived as a requirement for succeeding at life.

 

I think someone wired this way would be hurt by someone silently reducing contact.

 

It might be hard but I think honesty would be kind. "I'm not comfortable being a *best* friend. It's not part of my personality and makes me feel pressured."

[MegP]

She does not sound healthy at all. Sounds like a stalker , almost!

 

I would not want to be friends with someone like that. Creepy and weird!

Edited February 26, 2016 by MegP

[JFSinIL]

I think once you have the next baby and get more mobile you will find places to go and things to do without this needy mom. Not to cut her off, of course, but to expand your circle of friends. Needy Mom needs to do the same.

[Grover]

ooh yeah, that's awkward.  It's hard when the kids grow apart too.  I've had a few over the years that I've had to distance from, suddenly get busy or have other commitments.  I don't think you're awful... could youperhaps introduce her to some other people (or recommend a playgroup or similar) where she might meet other friends?  SHe sounds lonely / needy... in introvert in me is shuddering at all that neediness.

[sgo95]

I don't find her creepy, but it is obviously an unequal relationship that you find to be exhausting.  Absolutely feel free gain a little distance in the relationship as others have suggested.  You wouldn't be abandoning her.  If she feels hurt by it, honestly, her family and her feelings are NOT your responsibility.  I think it's weird/wrong for you to carry that burden.

[MegP]

It is creepy that she patterns her life after yours. Like only lets her kids watch TV shows that you let your own kids watch. That borders on obsessive, in my opinion. 

[Ravin]

I had a friend I was a little bit like this with. I had a huge crush on her. Not saying that's the issue with your friend, but it does sound like she is far more emotionally attached you you and your family than you are to her and hers. That imbalance will lead to one of two things, IME: either the friendship will gradually fade (probably by guidance from your end) or it will implode and break up (probably by guidance from her end.)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I don't think there is anything wrong with limiting time with her, gently.  Along the lines of "Life is just getting so busy, I can't make any dates in the next few weeks.  How about (3 weeks later)?"  Avoiding a co-op is easy.  Just tel her you got into homeschooling because you want a truly individualized education plan for your kids, and so you aren't willing to do any co-op things.  

 

You can also push her towards reference materials when she asks you to make a decision for her (what reading program for my kid?  What tv show?).  "Have you tried googling that?" or "You should check on Cathy Duffy Reviews.  I find them really helpful."  

 

You came across in your OP as being very thoughtful and honest.  Nothing wrong with admitting to an IQ mis-match.  I find this happens to me from time to time, and as long as I can find other things to admire in the person, it all works out.  :-)  But like you, they are not going to end up on the BFF short list.  

 

 

[Katy]

sigh.  I don't think she's a stalker.  I do think she really admires you and is desperate for some friends.  I've been on the receiving end of that too. I'd keep her in your circle of friends.  She will always be loyal, someone you can rely on, and kind, and sometimes that's more important in terms of friendship than deep conversation.  You'll be a very good influence on her and her kids, and when you're not in a good place she'll be a surprisingly great source of moral support for you.  You don't need to be intellectual to be wise about emotional situations.

 

I'm sort of evenly keeled between extrovert and introvert so this might not work for you, but what I've found to be most successful in those situations is having a get together every 6-8 weeks with friends.  A potluck dinner party, if you will. Invite her & her family.  Invite other friends & family.  Your circle will expand a bit, hers will expand a bit, and hopefully she'll find some other friends too to either spread out the enthusiasm a bit OR she'll find someone who's putting the same sort of desperate vibe out as she is and they'll either glom on to each other or they'll both learn to stop doing that.

[mathnerd]

When people are not confident about themselves, but want to keep up with the best out there (in their opinion) and cannot spend the energy and effort to do their research, do not have any opinions about what they want or do not want, they tend to pattern themselves after somebody that they think knows a lot and is better than them in that aspect. I am surrounded by a sea of such "friends" it seems. I dread birthday parties and potlucks where I am a sitting duck, it seems. I drop these friendships. I tell them that I need to be out of the house the whole day when they call to ask me if they can drop in. It is too creepy for me. My DH calls me "antisocial" to the sweet and wonderful ladies who are only trying to be my friends. But, I cannot take responsibility for the way others raise their kids by trying to actively copy what I do.

Edited February 26, 2016 by mathnerd

[Xahm]

Thank you all for your support and advice. I'm going to try cutting back to getting together once every two weeks or so (and maybe being really swamped when the baby is born. My hope is that this will encourage her to find others to rely on. I don't plan to cut her out, and if the kids become actually incompatible I'd be fine getting together for just "mom time" once a month. You've helped me see it will be healthier for both of us to remain friends but not be so close. Well, actually I saw that before, but it's good to have backup that I'm not being mean.

[Ottakee]

I think you have a good plan. She seems like she fits the profile of someone with a bit lower IQ. They learn by modeling and need to be taught more step by step things that many people just "get". That would explain a lot of her behaviors.

 

Does she attend a church at all? If so, maybe a group there would.be good for her or a Stephens minister or other mentoring type thing....maybe an older lady with more time.

[mamiof5]

You are not being mean. Life gets busy, and with a baby coming it will get more busy. I love my friends and have close friendships, but we respect each other's level of busyness. Not sure I'd call her creepy, but just maybe a little attached? A true friend wouldn't try to pull you from family (like your sister in law). Not saying she's not your true friend, but maybe she's not seeing she might be acting a little insecure and overly attached. Don't ditch your friendship, but yes, definitely set limits. And the co-op? Be honest and let her know you are not interested. You can do other activities, but not interested in a co-op at this point in time. Good luck!

[Jaz]

It sounds like you have a good plan in place. It's okay for friendships to change. :grouphug:

[lmrich]

She is not stalker or creepy. She admires you greatly and lacks confidence in herself. You are and have been kind. I love that you can see her good qualities and honestly the fact that she is not gossipy puts a lot of gold stars by her name in my book. 

 

I bet she is terribly lonely and unsure of herself, and you must look like you have it all together. 

 

Put the distance between you that you feel is needed. You are not going to move with them or even vacation them. And she knows that, so you do not have to tell her. 

 

Hope you feel better soon. 

[LucyStoner]

I don't think there is any need to assign ill-intent to this woman. She sounds isolated and lonely. Not like a dangerous stalker. She's just more into you than you are to her. It happens in relationships of different types at times.

 

You or really any of us might find the shoe on the other foot if we were away from out family and old friends. Well, probably not in the same way or to the same degree but to some degree we would all be more eager for friendships if removed from our family and friends. Eagerness can show.

 

I do put a lot of stock into just not being a good fit or that close to her but truthfully, I don't put too much into the difference in IQs. My son has an IQ north of 150 and some of his closest ties recently have been with people who are definitely not on the same page academically and intellectually. One child who comes to mind also has HFA but is of low average intelligence. And some of the kids who have been the worst for him are those who are at his level more or less intellect wise but are kinda mean otherwise. There was one kid who is, I surmise probably about equivalent to my son IQ wise but had they warmed to each other, I would have gritted my teeth and winced everytime they got together. Similarly, I have wonderful friendships with people who are of vastly different IQ. And I have some people in my circle who are very smart but I find highly annoying at times. Most recently one of my oldest friends would spend much of our time together whining about how much smarter she is than her coworkers, our other friends and basically everyone else on the planet. It took serious willpower not to tell her to STFU. ;) I also see that the friend of my son's who is of low average IQ is so much more advanced than my son in some things- namely being patient but other things as well. That child's mother told me she was so glad that my son was such a good influence on him. She was touched and surprised to hear that I think my son benefits equally from seeing her son model skills that somewhat elude my son or are new for my son. It very well could be the case that if your friend was vastly more intelligent that you'd still clash with her or be overwhelmed by her style and approach.

 

Still I do see your dilemma and agree it is a good idea to pull away a bit but think it is wise to not do so toooo abruptly. Nice, kind friends are a blessing. I also like the idea of, if you are able with your own level of introversion, connect her with others at group gatherings.

Edited February 27, 2016 by LucyStoner

[HS Mom in NC]

I think you've been very nice considering that she's getting far more out of this relationship than you are.  Your plan to cut back without cutting her off seems very reasonable to me.

 

I second the idea mentioned upthread about giving her some suggested reading recommendations so she can look into homeschooling on her own.  I have a new homeschooler packet that covers some basics if you want it. You can PM me for it.  If you don't, I'm not at all offended. 

I avoid talking about IQs most of the time, I suspect the poster upthread who mentioned she may have a lower one might be right.  I've met scores of new homeschoolers over the years and the two of them struck me as having noticeably lower IQs and both tended to be clingy and needed to copy others.  It's rare, but I think I've seen what you're talking about.

My husband is an actual genius.  That doesn't mean he can't have deep conversations with people who aren't geniuses.  He may need someone with a very high IQ to talk about some of the extremely advanced math, science and programming concepts, but friendships are a different matter entirely.  Most very intelligent people have other aspects to themselves that don't require an IQ match to be satisfying.

I had a really early reader.  My oldest could open a book like Little House on the Prairie and read it aloud like an adult on her 5th birthday.  Her comprehension was off the charts for her age.  She could also quote back large chunks of what she had read only once.  I knew it wasn't normal.  People would ask about what I was using and how I taught it, but I had to point out that she wasn't normal.  I never repeated a phonics concept with her.  She went from reading nothing until she was 4 to what I described at 5. You can only tell people that their children should be doing what they're able to do when they're able to do it and that every kid is different.  Whether they believe you or not is their responsibility, not yours.

If you need a reason other than "I'm too busy" to avoid a co-op situation, you can always develop Scarlet Fever or something with kind of vague but alarming symptoms: discharge, a barking cough, fever and dizziness, rashes, etc. Or maybe you can tell you won't be getting out much with the baby for quite a while and ask if she has she been to any other groups (church, homeschooling) nearby.  Maybe you could ask her if she's willing to go and check them out and give you some feedback on them when you are able to get together because eventually you'll be interested them. 

[zoobie]

She says things like "You better not replace me with your sister-in-law. You can hang out, but I'm your best friend." and "You can never move away. I need you too much." I would think it was mostly a joke except she says something like this every time we are together. She and her husband have brought up the idea of moving out of state and her husband asked her if we would move too to be with them. I know because she then asked me if we would. I pointed out that all our extended family lives here, so no, we would not. It made me wonder what she says to him for him to think that's a possibility. (Our husbands don't hang out, though she tries to engineer this.)

 

This is the part that gave me shivers.

[8circles]

You have no obligation to continue a friendship that you don't want to.  I think you've been nice & so just continue on being nice, but you don't have to get together as often as you have been if you don't want to.  

 

I also think this woman is just lonely and insecure.  Sometimes being lonely & insecure makes you seem weird.  

 

I do have to be honest & say that I think your focus on IQ and how important it is in this scenario is overblown.  That might be because of a social skill deficit on your part.  Friends aren't only for having stimulating, deep conversations.  Friends are people that you care about & enjoy.  That has nothing to do with IQ.  It may be that you have difficulty connecting with her on some level & it may even have something to do with IQ.  It could also have to do with social skill.  It could also be something else.  It doesn't even have to matter why.  If you want to be friends with someone you work on connecting, even if it doesn't come easy.  Again, though, you don't have to be friends if you don't want to.

 

You also don't have to say anything about comparing kids.  Kids are all different, even kids who are at the same development levels, some kids are better at some things than others.

 

I hope I'm not coming across too harshly.  I just see the IQ thing as an excuse.  It doesn't have to matter unless you make it matter.

[8circles]

This is the part that gave me shivers.

 

Maybe she was trying to make a joke.  I could see myself (no, I've never said this) joking like this with my very close friends.  Yes, I know the OP doesn't think she's that close of a friend, but maybe the other gal does.  It doesn't mean she's a creepy-stalker.

 

Seriously, do you guys know what it's like to move to a place with no family & no friends and try to break-in to the already-established groups?  And stay home with small children?  Maybe she's a little weird.  Maybe she's over-eager.  Maybe she's awkward.  Give her a break.

[zoobie]

Maybe she was trying to make a joke. I could see myself (no, I've never said this) joking like this with my very close friends. Yes, I know the OP doesn't think she's that close of a friend, but maybe the other gal does. It doesn't mean she's a creepy-stalker.

 

Seriously, do you guys know what it's like to move to a place with no family & no friends and try to break-in to the already-established groups? And stay home with small children? Maybe she's a little weird. Maybe she's over-eager. Maybe she's awkward. Give her a break.

Joking once? Sure. Every time? No. I don't think she's going to boil OP's bunny or anything, but that would freak me out in OP's position of not sharing the BFF 4EVR feelings. She may be socially awkward. I have nothing against that. I'm sure I am! But OP is just not that into her, and continuing the charade seems unkind as well as exhausting.

[eternalsummer]

You have no obligation to continue a friendship that you don't want to.  I think you've been nice & so just continue on being nice, but you don't have to get together as often as you have been if you don't want to.  

 

I also think this woman is just lonely and insecure.  Sometimes being lonely & insecure makes you seem weird.  

 

I do have to be honest & say that I think your focus on IQ and how important it is in this scenario is overblown.  That might be because of a social skill deficit on your part.  Friends aren't only for having stimulating, deep conversations.  Friends are people that you care about & enjoy.  That has nothing to do with IQ.  It may be that you have difficulty connecting with her on some level & it may even have something to do with IQ.  It could also have to do with social skill.  It could also be something else.  It doesn't even have to matter why.  If you want to be friends with someone you work on connecting, even if it doesn't come easy.  Again, though, you don't have to be friends if you don't want to.

 

You also don't have to say anything about comparing kids.  Kids are all different, even kids who are at the same development levels, some kids are better at some things than others.

 

I hope I'm not coming across too harshly.  I just see the IQ thing as an excuse.  It doesn't have to matter unless you make it matter.

 

 

For casual friendships, I agree that IQ is not that important.  For a best friend, at least for me, a relative match in IQ is crucial.  

This is just my experience through life; probably it is different for different people.  Also keep in mind that for people at the very end of the IQ distributions  the difference is often more marked.  So a person with an IQ of 130 is as far from the average person as is someone with an IQ of 70; that said, 130 is not hugely exceptional and is close enough to where I am to be not a noticeable difference.  If you're talking about someone in the 150+ range, though, I have heard that it becomes really difficult for them to relate to even bright people fully.

 

Again, for some people maybe intelligence is not an important part of their personality, regardless of how intelligent they are; but for others, a significant mismatch (as in someone of average intelligence with someone who is exceptionally intelligent) makes a deep relationship of equals quite difficult.

[8circles]

Joking once? Sure. Every time? No. I don't think she's going to boil OP's bunny or anything, but that would freak me out in OP's position of not sharing the BFF 4EVR feelings. She may be socially awkward. I have nothing against that. I'm sure I am! But OP is just not that into her, and continuing the charade seems unkind as well as exhausting.

 

The OP doesn't have to be friends with her if she doesn't want to.  DOesn't make her creepy.

[catz]

Maybe she was trying to make a joke.  I could see myself (no, I've never said this) joking like this with my very close friends.  Yes, I know the OP doesn't think she's that close of a friend, but maybe the other gal does.  It doesn't mean she's a creepy-stalker.

 

Seriously, do you guys know what it's like to move to a place with no family & no friends and try to break-in to the already-established groups?  And stay home with small children?  Maybe she's a little weird.  Maybe she's over-eager.  Maybe she's awkward.  Give her a break.

 

I can accept this.  But it still doesn't mean the OP has any kind of obligation to be besties with this person at all. 

 

I think going late into your pregnancy say you're feeling overwhelmed with weekly get togethers and you need to back off. Think of connecting with a wider group and including her occasionally.  I would drop doing academic stuff together.  I tend to think a bunch early childhood structured group stuff is highly overrated.  The kids are all at their own places. 

 

She does sound kind of off to me and I couldn't take it.

 

[8circles]

I can accept this.  But it still doesn't mean the OP has any kind of obligation to be besties with this person at all. 

 

I think going late into your pregnancy say you're feeling overwhelmed with weekly get togethers and you need to back off. Think of connecting with a wider group and including her occasionally.  I would drop doing academic stuff together.  I tend to think a bunch early childhood structured group stuff is highly overrated.  The kids are all at their own places. 

 

She does sound kind of off to me and I couldn't take it.

 

 

Yes, as I've said. 

[bolt.]

I think the way that she is (strangely) willing to adopt your values and approaches to life is the secret key to the solution. You need to *talk* about things like, "We all need a wide circle of diverse friends for our own mental health and outle kids' socialization! I'm going to try to make more friends and see them separately. Doesn't that sound like a great approach to life?"

 

That boils down to "just say it" -- if you worry that your leadership has too much power (dependence) within the relationship, why does she have this ability to idealize things you don't think are ideal? You don't need to nod and smile. Tell her (using a generic/theoretical approach) that you actually don't think it's ideal, and you like other things better. In 20 minutes she will like those things better too.

Edited February 27, 2016 by bolt.

[Um_2_4]

There were some friendships that I would rather have avoided, but I was thrown in to for multiple reasons (DHs were friends pre-marriage or we all had kids at the same time or we all hail from the same place). Most of these were a mismatch and only 2 out of about 15 am I still friends with. 1 I really clicked with even though, on the surface, we did not have that much in common but we have been there, literally, for each other's deliveries, illnesses, midnight ER runs, family deaths, etc and another 1 that is more of an intellectual match and whom I can talk to, even though to an outsider, we may not seem to have a lot in common.

 

For those remaining 13, I was the one that many called/dropped by to get answers about ____________ (Dr stuff, insurance, home remedies, how to fax this, how to ship this to xyz, where to buy xyz, what store is cheapest for abc, tutor my kid, "oh your DS can read? teach mine too", etc.). I didn't mind helping out occasionally, but many never tried to learn the skills to do it themselves, so needless to say it got old.Those friendships were never "equal" really. None could I talk about news or an interesting report or a book  It was probably a combo of background, education and interest mismatch. We just didn't have much to talk about. Dinner parties once a month were fine, but daily talks/meet ups........ nope.

 

I still recall the time 2,who had babies a bit younger than DS#1, dropped by unannounced and just wanted to "observe" what I did with DS#1 all day when he was a baby because he talked very early and they saw him doing simple puzzles (those tray toddler puzzles) on one visit (he was 12mo I think at the time, their babies were a couple months younger). It was kind of disconcerting, I didn't want them to compare kids iykwim and I just recommended some books, toys, etc.

 

Now all that to say,  a couple of these ladies were a huge help when I was on bedrest with the twins and had 2 surgeries before the twins were 6mo. And I did help them out with babysitting during Dr appts or picking something up at the store if they were ill, etc. But we were never going to be besties as we didn't click.

 

I started distancing myself by being busy (I actually was as DS started reading at 3 by himself, so I just began working with him whenever he wanted) Then when I moved about 15 miles further away most all of that stopped. I also let a few people know I don't answer my phone during "school time", so they don't even call. As my kids got older and with full time HSing, I just can't make those get togethers. 

 

I think you may naturally grow apart and a big change (moving, new baby) is a perfect time to start new routines/change old ones/ put up boundaries.

 

[Anne in CA]

Dh's mom had a friend like this and it was very hard for her. When the friendship ended she felt awful. I don't think you are a jerk at all, you just want to spend your social time connecting with people of your own like. She needs more than that. I am sorry for you. And I hear you about never getting to brag about your kids. It's hard. I was there for a lot of years too.

[Tsuga]

This is the part that gave me shivers.

 

Me too!

 

I even copied it to quote it myself: "She says things like "You better not replace me with your sister-in-law. You can hang out, but I'm your best friend." and "You can never move away. I need you too much." I would think it was mostly a joke except she says something like this every time we are together. She and her husband have brought up the idea of moving out of state and her husband asked her if we would move too to be with them. I know because she then asked me if we would."

 

 

 

The OP doesn't have to be friends with her if she doesn't want to.  DOesn't make her creepy.

 

Well... no, just because OP doesn't want to be friends doesn't mean she's creepy. Those words, the repeated "don't leave me!" themes are creepy, to me anyway.

 

 

 

OP, I hear you. I can't say that's an issue I'm having, but my BFF from middle school was much the same. We just never connected beyond the awkwardness of being 11 but she was like, attached! She found me on FB years later. "Hey best friend!" Uh. There was an intellectual side to it, though I'm probably not as high IQ as you and I doubt she was as in need of guidance, as your friend. It was just... "Wow, really, that management training on being a good listener sounds like it really resonated with you." Awkward smile. Because it was always like that. I just didn't connect with anything she actually wanted to talk about. It was fine when we were both getting boobies and periods and all that. We connected. We shared a pretty deep experience--something that you were probably able to share with this friends when pushing out babies, it's a pretty big deal. But beyond that biological stuff? Seriously, I did not enjoy the conversation. And I can enjoy conversation with a lot of people, it's not about IQ per se as it is about life interests and goals and pursuits.

 

Also, it is mildly irritating to have someone echo back everything to you. I wouldn't mind it in a casual friend but in a close friend who wants to do co-op with me--no. That's too much.

 

I do think it will be hard to taper off especially if you've been smiling politely all this time, even though the "overly attached best friend" moments where she asks you to move with her. I mean really, what the heck is that about?

 

So is she moving? In that case, you are lucky. You can taper off with shorter and shorter phone conversations and e-mails, always ended kindly and politely. 

 

Good luck and I hope you find someone you connect with. 

[Xahm]

There are so many things to reply to, but I can't multiquote on my phone, so I'll just allude to various posts.

Really, she's not a creepy person, but it is a creepy situation because her neediness causes her to do creepy things. Mutual friends have checked in with me about various things she's said to them about us, so others have noticed, too. It would be great if a grandmotherly woman in the church would take her on, as she has tried to get my mom to do, but most of them are swamped with their own grandkids and work. There are a couple of ladies I may steer her towards.

Someone suggested, basically, that I wield my power for good and get her to value the things I think she should value, but I don't want to do that. If I am going to help her in a real way, it has to be by helping her think things through and modelling successful coping strategies.

About the iq thing. Yes, it is a kind of social deficit that I have trouble connecting deeply with people with vastly different abilities than I have, but it's not a surprising or unusual problem. The older I get, the better I am with coping. In high school most casual social situations caused me to want to punch a wall just to make the chatter stop. Now I'm fine with having friends with whom I stay at surface level, but I can't be super close to someone when neither one of us understands how the other thinks. And that's okay.

She is planning on moving. I am gently encouraging the out of state move because she has family there, but more likely she will be moving closer to us. If that happens, firm boundaries will be set.

She really is so nice and just needs her mom, in my opinion. We are going to stick more to play (I chose the next activity: simplified kickball then freeplay). Wherever she ends up living, I will help her find a co-op and then explain that we aren't really co-op people. Hopefully there will be several nice ladies there, and if 4 or 5 people are each offering support, it really would be pleasant for us all. Regardless, her family is not my responsibility and I will chant that to myself if I begin feeling too pressured again.

[Sara in AZ]

Sounds like you have a good plan. Your situation reminds me of this Studio C sketch I love about best friends...

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug: to you

 

 

I feel sorry for her.

 

 

I know when I first started homeschooling I really wanted to have a buddy with children of a similar age so my children could have friends and I could reassure myself that I could homeschool. I tried really hard but it didn't work out.

 I succeeded in homeschooling and remain friendless. Luckily I am the type of person who doesn't mind so much that I have no friends. but it must be nice...........

[Ausmumof3]

I have a friend who was a little like this though less extreme. Honestly though when I went through a rough stage and was quite lonely she was there for me. Whereas my iq match friend who I really connected to has dropped out of my life and I hers. Probably because we both have higher iq and lower than average keeping in touch skills.

 

I think a more important thing for friendship is shared interests. Can you encourage her to develop some interests aside from homeschooling that might help her to connect to other people?

[ebunny]

I think you have a good plan. She seems like she fits the profile of someone with a bit lower IQ. They learn by modeling and need to be taught more step by step things that many people just "get". That would explain a lot of her behaviors.

 

Does she attend a church at all? If so, maybe a group there would.be good for her or a Stephens minister or other mentoring type thing....maybe an older lady with more time.

 

 

/snip

I avoid talking about IQs most of the time, I suspect the poster upthread who mentioned she may have a lower one might be right.  I've met scores of new homeschoolers over the years and the two of them struck me as having noticeably lower IQs and both tended to be clingy and needed to copy others.  It's rare, but I think I've seen what you're talking about.

\snip

 

 

Re: bolded.

 

I find it interesting that clinginess and/or imitation is correlated to (suspected) low IQ rather than low self confidence. 

[Ottakee]

Re: bolded.

 

I find it interesting that clinginess and/or imitation is correlated to (suspected) low IQ rather than low self confidence.

What I said is likely because I am parenting 5 kids, all with lower IQs (range of 55-84) and I see this in them. My perspective is likely skewed though.

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[Xahm]

That is a really good idea! And my dd and ds consider each other their best friends, and surely she couldn't feel threatened by that!

I've noticed the modeling thing among lower IQ friends too.  I don't think it's about self-confidence as much as it is better prioritization - if you know you're not the expert on learning, going to your "smartest" friend to find out about learning, rather than overthinking it, is likely to yield better results than you would get on your own.  In most topics you're not an expert in, going to the expert you know is likely to get better results if you're not capable of becoming an expert yourself.

 

As to the creepy statements, saying something like, "I know you're joking, but those comments make me really uncomfortable. DH is my best friend, not you.  And yours should be your DH too."  If you manage to wrap the comment in the Christianese of your particular church it's likely to be extra effective.  If this was a non-church friend cracking a joke about it might be more effective, but because she has been so direct I think being direct back will be more effective.

 

[8circles]

I think you're way overthinking this.  Even if she's serious about it, just chuckle & say "you can't engineer best friends, they just happen".  Maybe she had a best friend where they lived before that she misses a lot - ask her about it?  Did she have best friends when she was the ages of her kids now - ask her about it.  

 

[PrincessMommy]

Thank you all for your support and advice. I'm going to try cutting back to getting together once every two weeks or so (and maybe being really swamped when the baby is born. My hope is that this will encourage her to find others to rely on. I don't plan to cut her out, and if the kids become actually incompatible I'd be fine getting together for just "mom time" once a month. You've helped me see it will be healthier for both of us to remain friends but not be so close. Well, actually I saw that before, but it's good to have backup that I'm not being mean.

 

That sounds like a good plan.  I think with this type of personality you're going to have to be very gentle and careful.   She's clearly aware of the possibility that you're going to back away by all the pressure to be friends forever.  Makes me wonder if she's been obsessive before and then dropped by the other friend. 

 

I would also recommend backing off and encouraging other friendships for her, but I suspect that it will be harder than you think.  :grouphug:

[ebunny]

I've noticed the modeling thing among lower IQ friends too.  I don't think it's about self-confidence as much as it is better prioritization - if you know you're not the expert on learning, going to your "smartest" friend to find out about learning, rather than overthinking it, is likely to yield better results than you would get on your own.  In most topics you're not an expert in, going to the expert you know is likely to get better results if you're not capable of becoming an expert yourself.

 

 

 

With due apologies to the OP for taking this slightly OT..

 

When you (or the PPs)  say 'lower IQ friends', do you mean to say that they have shared their IQ results? Or are you guessing at their IQ's based on their behavioural patterns? 

FWIW, I think the bolded (mine) in your post suggests self awareness that goes hand-in-hand with a generous amount of intelligence.

 

Honestly, I don't know what bothers me more- that some people develop friendships based on rough estimation of IQ's or that certain not-so-positive behaviours are connected specifically with low IQ.  :mellow:  

 

I'll go back to my lurking mode before I hijack the thread completely.  :leaving:

[Calm37]

I am seeing something a little different. Just in reading the OP, I really felt like a mentoring relationship was being described. The boundaries that would come with redefining things that way might make this much healthier. It may even help with this woman's insecurity. And if you are a task-oriented introvert, like I am, owning up to the fact that you are mentoring her should make you much happier in the relationship.

 

[Xahm]

Hijack away! 

I certainly don't know any numbers about my friends' iqs and don't really want to, but there are indicaters that show basically how many standard deviations from the norm a person is. In my particular experience, someone who is more than two standard deviations from me just isn't going to be a friend I can connect with on multiple levels. General intellectual curiosity also makes a huge difference, as do a lot of personality traits. 

As another odd aside, my group of friends in college realized after taking the Myers-Briggs test that all of the females in our tight-knit group were "thinkers" as opposed to "feelers." A lot goes into what makes people click. 

 

With due apologies to the OP for taking this slightly OT..

 

When you (or the PPs)  say 'lower IQ friends', do you mean to say that they have shared their IQ results? Or are you guessing at their IQ's based on their behavioural patterns? 

FWIW, I think the bolded (mine) in your post suggests self awareness that goes hand-in-hand with a generous amount of intelligence.

 

Honestly, I don't know what bothers me more- that some people develop friendships based on rough estimation of IQ's or that certain not-so-positive behaviours are connected specifically with low IQ.  :mellow:  

 

I'll go back to my lurking mode before I hijack the thread completely.  :leaving:

 

[gardenmom5]

 

(I hesitate to add this because it can be taken badly, but my husband and I have significantly high iqs, high enough that it limits the pool of people with whom we can have deep connections. We're fine with valuing people for other things and enjoying casual friendships based on common interests, kids, etc, but I'm an introvert so I really don't need too much of that.)

I understand.  1dd is like this.  makes it hard to find people who relate on as many levels. 

 

From my friend's perspective, we and our children are best-friends-forever.  She says things like "You better not replace me with your sister-in-law. You can hang out, but I'm your best friend." and "You can never move away. I need you too much." I would think it was mostly a joke except she says something like this every time we are together. She and her husband have brought up the idea of moving out of state and her husband asked her if we would move too to be with them. I know because she then asked me if we would. I pointed out that all our extended family lives here, so no, we would not. It made me wonder what she says to him for him to think that's a possibility. (Our husbands don't hang out, though she tries to engineer this.)

 

This is a flag for me, and I would feel smothered.  (at best, at worst - I'd wonder if she'd ever eventually act on her controlling tendencies.  I'd be wary.)  I would also not be worried about my kids moving on from her kids.  (they still live with their mother.)

 

The difficulties are basically that she has unrealistic expectations of our future together and that she's exhausting. She wants us to start a mini-co-op together, but our children, though similar ages, are at wildly different levels of maturity. Hers are basically typical children on the later end of normal regarding meeting milestones. We rejoice together when they hit them! Mine are a little ahead physically and significantly ahead cognitively (not bragging, just fact, though I'd be happy to brag if you'd like and don't really get to do that in real life). She organizes preschool-type activities for them and it leaves her worried about her children and me trying to reassure her. I finally told her the level at which my three year old is working, just by way of saying "don't compare our kids. It's mine that are abnormal," and her response was "Do you think my daughter could do that?" I gave her other ideas of good things that she could do now with her daughter, games and story-telling kinds of things. Part of it is that she is determined to homeschool and is raring to start seatwork asap. Another part is that she is not confident in her own education or ability to teach, so she is looking for that magic key to make it all work swimmingly.

 

so - she's competitive and wants her KIDS to keep up with other kids.  another reason to not have her around my kids.  bright kids can have a hard enough time with their own more typical peers - they don't need their playmates mom focusing on that making them feel even more "different"  (and what it does to her own kids -making them feel inferior if they don't keep up.)

 

I guess I want reassurance. Reassurance that it's okay if I gradually cut back the time I spend with her, increasing it with my sisters-in-law and maybe even new friends I make! Reassurance that she, and her kids will be fine. I know some of our mutual acquaintances would step in some when she needs help and support, but generally no one has tons of extra time and energy at this point in our parenting journey. I think she needs her mom to move to town! That would solve a lot.

I'll end this here. I feel like a horrible person when she gushes about our eternal friendship and I respond with things like "yeah, we've had a fun time today," so if you think I'm horrible after reading this, please know I feel plenty bad already.

 

consider yourself reassured.

 

I think she needs some counseling to learn to stand on her own feet.  she'll just transfer it to someone else.

 

eta: and I vote creepy. (and definitely not mentally healthy.)

Edited February 27, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[gardenmom5]

Maybe she was trying to make a joke.  

 

the OP doesn't think it was a joke.

 

 

 

 

:OP  "She says things like "You better not replace me with your sister-in-law. You can hang out, but I'm your best friend." and "You can never move away. I need you too much." I would think it was mostly a joke except she says something like this every time we are together. She and her husband have brought up the idea of moving out of state and her husband asked her if we would move too to be with them. I know because she then asked me if we would."

 

 

 Mutual friends have checked in with me about various things she's said to them about us, so others have noticed, too. 

 

that would be another flag to me that multiple friends are so aware of what is going on, they are checking in with you about this