Dairy: dietary good guy or bad guy? I want to hear pros and cons

[Laurie4b]

I am trying to make a decision as to whether to continue with dairy. I want to continue because 1) I like milk in my coffee 2) I don't want to take calcium supplements and 3) I want to consume kefir and yogurt for the probiotics (and I don't want to take a probiotic supplement.  Yes, there is a theme here!) 

 

I also have an autoimmune thyroid disease, but am asymptomatic, so I couldn't try the AIP protocol because there are no symptoms to improve or not. I feel great. I have been able to lose weight at my current rate of dairy consumption so the "milk is meant to make calves grow fast" doesn't seem to be an issue for me. Genetically, I am at a high risk for Alzheimers, so if there is anything pertinent to that, I'd be especially interested. 

 

As I said, I would like to continue, but keep reading negative stuff about dairy. If you've researched, could you share why you believe dairy is either a dietary good guy or bad guy? If you have sources (links) you could share, that would be helpful. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

I go back and forth on dairy. I have hashimotos too. Gluten is bad for me and I feel a difference when I consume it. I can't decide if dairy is ok :(

[Catwoman]

Depending on what you read, dairy is either great for you or will kill you. ;)

 

I am pro-dairy, but I have no statistics to back up my opinion that dairy products are healthy for me. I will say that when I don't eat dairy, I don't feel as well.

 

I am generally an "everything in moderation" person, so I should probably avoid the food threads. I always read others' comments and feel like a slug because I don't grind my own wheat, milk my own goats, or eat only unprocessed organic foods.

[mommymilkies]

It totally depends on your genetic makeup and allergy & autoimmune status.  In other words, there is no right answer for everyone.  If you feel better or improve off of dairy, you're better without.

[happi duck]

Another vote for it depends upon the individual.

 

Regular dairy makes me feel horrible but kefir and yogurt don't.

 

Even cream in coffee made me feel ill so I worked at liking black coffee which I now prefer.

[Ellie]

I am trying to make a decision as to whether to continue with dairy. I want to continue because 1) I like milk in my coffee 2) I don't want to take calcium supplements and 3) I want to consume kefir and yogurt for the probiotics (and I don't want to take a probiotic supplement.  Yes, there is a theme here!) 

 

I also have an autoimmune thyroid disease, but am asymptomatic, so I couldn't try the AIP protocol because there are no symptoms to improve or not. I feel great. I have been able to lose weight at my current rate of dairy consumption so the "milk is meant to make calves grow fast" doesn't seem to be an issue for me. Genetically, I am at a high risk for Alzheimers, so if there is anything pertinent to that, I'd be especially interested. 

 

As I said, I would like to continue, but keep reading negative stuff about dairy. If you've researched, could you share why you believe dairy is either a dietary good guy or bad guy? If you have sources (links) you could share, that would be helpful. 

 

Dairy is the most high-allergic food. I have known this since, oh, 1977. It is more likely to cause acne than high-fat foods or poor hygiene. I read a book back then called "New Wives' Tales," written by a doctor whose name I cannot remember (because old age, lol), with a whole chapter on the down side of dairy. La Leche League has information on dairy issues, as well.

 

It is a mucus-causing food, even in folks who are not allergic (or lactose-intolerant). I noticed this myself when my dairy consumption (which wasn't much, mind you, because of what I learned in 1977) was radically cut when I did Medifast for several months. My daily coughing and zonking (I'm allergic to dust mites) and general low-grade congestion cleared up about 80%.

 

Dairy consumption is not necessary for calcium. There are other foods, such as broccoli, which have calcium.

 

I have Hashimoto's. I've been doing AIP for about two months and haven't seen any change in my symptoms. I'll keep doing it, because maybe I'll see improvement over time. I do have cream in my tea, one cup in the morning and one cup at night, which is pretty much all the dairy I have on a regular basis.

[milovany]

I've been an avid dairy consumer all my half-century life (mostly milk, the last few years raw; but I also love cheese and some yogurt from time to time).  I am one of the healthiest people I know with few complaints.  There are times when I don't have dairy for up to six weeks and I can't tell a difference in any way between dairy times and non-dairy times.  I agree with the above poster who said it depends for each person.  I hear it when some people say dairy bothers them (my eldest son says so), but I've never experienced it. 

[kiana]

It's a food. Like anything else. If you don't react badly, feel free to eat it. If you don't like it, feel free to not eat it. Of course if you react badly you should not eat it.

 

Calves grow rapidly because they are babies and babies grow rapidly on any nutritious diet. Adult cows who continue to drink milk (yes, they will do this if not properly weaned -- we have a few who have weird nose-rings because they do this) do not get fat.

[marbel]

Dairy doesn't seem to bother me.  We thought for a while it bothered one of my kids, but he went off it for several weeks, with no differences.  So, another vote for "depends on the person." 

 

 

[Truscifi]

Another vote for it depends. For me it is a bad guy. I have tummy issues and general flares of inflammation when I eat a lot of dairy. I still have it in my coffee, but otherwise I avoid it. I do splurge occasionally and have a cheese day. I can feel the difference when I do but sometimes it is worth it. I love cheese.

[Mergath]

From a strictly dietary viewpoint, I agree with the pps that it depends on each individual person and their genetics. If you feel better consuming dairy, I wouldn't be in a big rush to stop.

[MercyA]

When I eliminate dairy, I have:

Less painful menstrual cramps (dairy affects hormones)

Fewer kidney stones (not sure why; it's not a high oxalate food)

Better sleep

Fewer allergy symptoms (hives)

 

Low-fat and skim milk contain added vitamin A, which is preserved by BHA. The National Institutes of Health says BHA is "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen."  Also, like lots of preservatives, it can affect behavior.  Whole milk doesn't have that problem.

 

I was once on a dairy farm when a newborn calf had just been taken away from her momma. It was awful. Most dairy farms do take away the calves shortly after birth, and I think that is extremely cruel. I really don't want to participate in that.

 

Dairy pro's: Good source of non-flesh protein, wonderful in tea and coffee.

[Tsuga]

It totally depends on your genetic makeup and allergy & autoimmune status. In other words, there is no right answer for everyone. If you feel better or improve off of dairy, you're better without.

Yes. Also, people change. I love dairy and so does my youngest. We both look Asian but dairy doesn't bother us in the least. My Persian-looking daughter, however, never finishes her milk and I personally think she might be lactose intolerant but she refuses to give up ice cream so I just try to provide a lot of milk alternatives. She hates most cheese except very hard cheeses or fermented yoghurt cheese. Her father also always had issues with milk I noticed.

[Tsuga]

I was once on a dairy farm when a newborn calf had just been taken away from her momma. It was awful. Most dairy farms do take away the calves shortly after birth, and I think that is extremely cruel. I really don't want to participate in that.

.

Organic Valley farmers, of whom I know a couple, do not all engage in this practice. The baby gets to be a certain age, like the cow equivalent of two, and then they remove them for part of the day but they still pasture together.

 

We have a couple local farms who also practice this and they sell at the grocery.

[Pawz4me]

I'm in the camp of everything in moderation depending on your particular body.

 

I have Hashi's (recently diagnosed) but have known for decades that I'm lactose intolerant.  I can handle a little bit of milk, so I have some half and half in my coffee.  Cheese doesn't seem to bother me, so I eat some of that pretty much daily.  But I avoid consuming large amounts of dairy because I'd rather not deal with the side effects!

[texasmama]

When I was drinking milk and if I eat ice cream, I get very bad post-nasal drip to the point that it affects my sleep.  I can eat a little cheese/yogurt with no problems.  Overall, I think we could all live quite nicely and healthily without dairy, but we are not complete dairy avoiders.  Dairy caused eczema in my kids when they were young so we switched to almond milk early on and never looked back.  Too much dairy of any type gives dh and ds14 diarrhea.  

 

How do you feel with dairy?  IME, drinking milk is different from eating yogurt as far as the effects on me and my family.  I do drink a creamer made of dairy, but the amount is negligible so it does not negatively impact me.  There are nondairy creamers made of coconut milk or almond milk, but I don't like them.

 

At one point years ago, I bought some raw milk to see how it affected us.  No change - still had post-nasal drip, and the kids still got eczema.

[MercyA]

Organic Valley farmers, of whom I know a couple, do not all engage in this practice. The baby gets to be a certain age, like the cow equivalent of two, and then they remove them for part of the day but they still pasture together.

 

We have a couple local farms who also practice this and they sell at the grocery.

 

I believe you about the Organic Valley farmers you personally know. However, I visited an organic farm in my area and noticed a very young calf staying close to his mother's side. I remarked to the farmer about how sweet it was, and she said a truck was coming to pick him up the next day. :(  He was about a week old. I am pretty sure it was an Organic Valley farm. 

 

It's great that you have farms near you who keep babies and moms together, but it's not the norm. In general, farmers would rather maximize profits by selling the mother's milk. Female babies are housed away from their mothers and fed a milk substitute, and males are usually sold for veal, even on the more humane farms.

 

ETA: Beef calves, on the other hand, usually do stay with their mothers for three to nine months.

[chocolatechip]

Yet another vote for it depends on the person and their individual biochemistry. 

[LucyStoner]

I am intolerant to lactose. So milk and me are not friends. Cow milk consumption is not good for me at all. Aside from pain, it does affect my skin and seems to be inflammatory for me (as confirmed by lab tests).

 

That said, I tend to avoid advice that says that just anyone should eliminate a whole catagory of food.

[LucyStoner]

Another vote for it depends upon the individual.

 

Regular dairy makes me feel horrible but kefir and yogurt don't.

 

Even cream in coffee made me feel ill so I worked at liking black coffee which I now prefer.

That's a lactose reaction most likely.

[Laurie4b]

Ok. Thanks everyone. I feel great right now. I am lactose intolerant, but just need to take a pill before my coffee latte (no sugar). So I guess if it's a matter of "It depends," I'm good. 

[Laurie4b]

Dairy is the most high-allergic food. I have known this since, oh, 1977. It is more likely to cause acne than high-fat foods or poor hygiene. I read a book back then called "New Wives' Tales," written by a doctor whose name I cannot remember (because old age, lol), with a whole chapter on the down side of dairy. La Leche League has information on dairy issues, as well.

 

It is a mucus-causing food, even in folks who are not allergic (or lactose-intolerant). I noticed this myself when my dairy consumption (which wasn't much, mind you, because of what I learned in 1977) was radically cut when I did Medifast for several months. My daily coughing and zonking (I'm allergic to dust mites) and general low-grade congestion cleared up about 80%.

 

Dairy consumption is not necessary for calcium. There are other foods, such as broccoli, which have calcium.

 

I have Hashimoto's. I've been doing AIP for about two months and haven't seen any change in my symptoms. I'll keep doing it, because maybe I'll see improvement over time. I do have cream in my tea, one cup in the morning and one cup at night, which is pretty much all the dairy I have on a regular basis.

 

I'd be interested in hearing whether it helps you any over time. I have the antibodies, but though my levels were initially heading out of the normal range, they have all come back down. More importantly, I feel great. No symptoms. But that lack of symptoms would also prevent me from doing something like AIG and finding out whether or not it was helping. 

 

Have you worked out your calcium without dairy on a daily basis? I took a look at that once and it looked rather daunting and I am a heavier-eater-of-veges than average. ETA (Tofu is not an option for me)

[lexi]

I agree that it depends. I have 3 daughters who are very allergic to dairy. It's terrifying. Our house went dairy free to keep them safe. I noticed zero difference for me. However my hubby had major positive changes. His asthma and congestion has cleared up drastically. He's had almost zero asthma attacks since cutting out dairy. His allergies seem better. So I think dairy bothers him and makes his symptoms worse. I don't feel like dairy impacts me as much.

[Rosie_0801]

Quality matters too. There's a heck of a difference between kefir and UHT milk.

 

Most people's bodies seem to prefer fermented dairy products.

 

 

[imagine.more]

I'm off dairy and soy right now for my MSPI infant and I'm gonna give a big vote on the pro-dairy side ;) haha! I do not feel good, my stomach has been chronically upset for the 6 weeks I've been on this mspi diet. Also, I would kill for cheese on my tacos...do you know how sad tacos without cheese are?!

 

If you have a predisposition to diabetes I vote for dairy because it was very good for blood sugar levels when I had gestational diabetes.

[Kerileanne99]

Organic Valley farmers, of whom I know a couple, do not all engage in this practice. The baby gets to be a certain age, like the cow equivalent of two, and then they remove them for part of the day but they still pasture together.

 

We have a couple local farms who also practice this and they sell at the grocery.

Yes, hubby drinks milk in his tea and with his cereal. We buy this milk for this reason (and others!).

[IfIOnly]

Some of the healthiest,  longest living cultures consumer mass amounts of dairy. The difference from our culture's dairy is that it's raw and contains many enzymes and other nutrients that aid dairy digestion. Rather than pastuerization, dairy is primarily preserved through fermenting, increasing it's nutritional value. Pasturerization makes the milk protein harder to digest and destroys nutrients and valuable enzymes (lactase, amylase, lipases, phosphateses, and more) that aid digestion. 

[Shellydon]

I have totally eliminated all dairy for many months twice.  Each time I felt no different when I was eating it vs. when I did not.  I felt no difference when I started eating it again. (same with wheat for me, too.)  So, I vote go with how you feel. 

[DesertBlossom]

Some of the healthiest, longest living cultures consumer mass amounts of dairy. The difference from our culture's dairy is that it's raw and contains many enzymes and other nutrients that aid dairy digestion. Rather than pastuerization, dairy is primarily preserved through fermenting, increasing it's nutritional value. Pasturerization makes the milk protein harder to digest and destroys nutrients and valuable enzymes (lactase, amylase, lipases, phosphateses, and more) that aid digestion.

I have heard that pasteurization and homogenization really change the milk and I think that has a lot to do with why it bothers a lot of people.

[Laura Corin]

I'm in the 'everything in moderation unless there is a clear medical need otherwise' camp.  Yes, I eat (pasteurised) dairy, gluten, carbs, meat, fruit, refined sugar....  But I eat mostly veg and whole grains, some protein, and bits and pieces of everything else.  I don't believe in demonising particular foodstuffs without a clear and personal reason.  We are all healthy and not overweight.

[Halftime Hope]

$0.02' worth:

 

The naturopathic oncologist that I work with encouraged me not to consume dairy, on the theory that 1) it contributes to low-grade inflammation for most people, and 2) it contains high levels of growth hormones for the benefit of the cow babies.  That's in spite of the fact that I buy raw, unpasteurized, "beyond organic" milk. 

 

I am thinking about water kefir, but I haven't gotten there from here yet.

[LLMom]

I say yes to kefir made yourself using raw milk from a local farmer. 

[Tanaqui]

Dairy is not a very good source of calcium for humans. You'll build stronger bones if you do the following things:

 

1. Increase your consumption of dark, leafy greens.

2. Strength train.

 

So your point 2 is moot.

[Laurie4b]

Dairy is not a very good source of calcium for humans. You'll build stronger bones if you do the following things:

 

1. Increase your consumption of dark, leafy greens.

2. Strength train.

 

So your point 2 is moot.

 

Can you share why dairy is not a good source of calcium for humans?

 

I already eat dark leafy greens daily and strength train. 

[Julie Smith]

Regular dairy gives my dh gas that could knock a person over at 50 paces. 

 

So dairy for him, is bad for everyone else. 

[Tanaqui]

It simply doesn't seem to be very bioavailable to humans, which may be why higher regional milk consumption is associated with higher osteoporosis rates. (This is a correlation, there may in fact be another cause. For example, higher regional milk consumption may tend to co-occur with, say, higher tobacco consumption, and it might therefore be the tobacco leading to the osteoporosis.)

 

Now, whenever we bring up this argument, there's always somebody who says "But what about the got milk ads?" or "But what about 'milk, it does a body good'?" Further discussion often reveals that these people sorta thought those were government campaigns. Putting aside the fact that science marches on, and we know more and more every year, the truth is that those campaigns were paid for by the Dairy Council, aka the dairy farmers of America. So, yeah, of course they're gonna say milk is a necessary part of the diet! Because they sell milk! And successfully, too, if people think those were government sponsored.

 

I will note, in the interest of fairness, that milk in the US is fortified with vitamin D. (Because rickets.) If you happen to not drink milk, and you don't get much sunlight (or live in the north and have dark skin), you'll need to up your vitamin D consumption in some other way. Try eating more fish and eggs, or fortified orange juice or soy milk. (Or a supplement, but as the OP wants to avoid taking pills, I am loath to recommend them.)

[abacus2]

Dairy seems good for me. Cheese is very helpful to me in keeping my protein consumption up. Cheese and butter enable me to enjoy a wider variety and greater quantity of vegetables than I would otherwise find palatable. Ice cream is by far the best treat I've found for its small effect on my blood sugar and I feel good after eating it. I don't have any daily allergy symptoms.

 

DH has definitely had issues with dairy in the past, but seems more able to tolerate it since going grain free.

[Carrie12345]

Depending on what you read, dairy is either great for you or will kill you. ;)

 

I am pro-dairy, but I have no statistics to back up my opinion that dairy products are healthy for me. I will say that when I don't eat dairy, I don't feel as well.

 

I am generally an "everything in moderation" person, so I should probably avoid the food threads. I always read others' comments and feel like a slug because I don't grind my own wheat, milk my own goats, or eat only unprocessed organic foods.

 

This is where I am, too.

I'm not a "you must drink your milk" parent and I've had an MSPI baby, so I don't subscribe to the idea that dairy is *essential, and I'm also aware that it needs to be avoided by many people for various reasons.  But I'm also against cutting out large food "types" without a demonstrated need.

[Tanaqui]

But I'm also against cutting out large food "types" without a demonstrated need.

 

You can always replace your dairy consumption with more insects. Then you're not "cutting out" anything, you're just switching food groups :)

 

[Catwoman]

You can always replace your dairy consumption with more insects. Then you're not "cutting out" anything, you're just switching food groups :)

I think I'll just stick with dairy. :D

 

Not that insects aren't a fine choice... for other people... :ack2:

[Tanaqui]

LOL, I just find that "food groups" are not a very useful way of dividing up, well, food, and that people who talk about cutting out food groups (or types of food - this convo comes up frequently with new atheists about why we're so superior to Jews and Muslims as well) often have their own things they Just Do Not Eat. (Crickets are at least kosher, I believe, unlike shrimp. They're like little kosher land-shrimp!)

 

But actually, if you eat anything processed, even flour, you already eat insects every day, because the FDA allows a certain amount of insect parts per million in processed goods. So, uh, enjoy your sandwich?

[kiana]

Bugs are fine as long as I don't realize I'm eating them :D

[IfIOnly]

Totally getting off topic and going with the eating insects convo., but our family REALLY enjoyed this BBC documentary about insect eating around the world. Fascinating! We learned so much.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think that if you like dairy, and feel fine eating it, there is no reason to cut it out.

 

A lot of people like diet advice that suggests eliminating large groups of food, for all.  Maybe they like the simplicity, or maybe it appeals to some sort of desire for self-sacrifice.  But I tend to think that kind of broad-brush advice is usually poor.

 

I think there are good reasons northern peoples developed the ability to digest dairy, and to say that it is unnatural is a bit of a difficult argument.  I live in the north, I have northern genes that mean I digest dairy well, eating it is a great way to get protein and fat that is produced locally, so I eat it.

[benzino]

I believe the dairy industry was sued based on their their claims that it was good for bones. I understand that the milk protein interferes with absorption. This is why you never see the milk ads claim bone health any more.

 

Ads do tout protein content now tho!

 

5% of all people with rheumatoid arthritis completely resolve when dairy is eliminated. There is definitely something up with dairy whether it causes body rash, atypical psoriasis or tummy troubles

[Catwoman]

I believe the dairy industry was sued based on their their claims that it was good for bones. I understand that the milk protein interferes with absorption. This is why you never see the milk ads claim bone health any more.

 

Ads do tout protein content now tho!

 

5% of all people with rheumatoid arthritis completely resolve when dairy is eliminated. There is definitely something up with dairy whether it causes body rash, atypical psoriasis or tummy troubles

Except for the people for whom it causes absolutely none of the unfortunate symptoms you mentioned -- and there are many of us.

 

I do agree, though, that if dairy doesn't work for you, you shouldn't have it in your diet. :)

[Tanaqui]

5% of all people with rheumatoid arthritis completely resolve when dairy is eliminated. There is definitely something up with dairy whether it causes body rash, atypical psoriasis or tummy troubles

 

Mmm, this may well be true, but to be fair, no matter WHAT you try for WHATEVER condition, somebody's bound to improve. Humans are funny that way.

 

[Laura Corin]

 

I think there are good reasons northern peoples developed the ability to digest dairy, and to say that it is unnatural is a bit of a difficult argument.  I live in the north, I have northern genes that mean I digest dairy well, eating it is a great way to get protein and fat that is produced locally, so I eat it.

 

 

I'm no expert on the ability to eat dairy, but I did talk to a lot of Chinese people about it.  Most middle-aged Chinese people in China found dairy difficult to digest.  There was a strong feeling (well-founded or not) that adding dairy for the next generation was a good idea, to make them big and strong.  Many young Chinese were given dairy and have no problem eating it.  From what I have read, most people are born with the ability to digest milk, human and by extension other animals', but lose it (their gut no longer produces the enzymes?) if they stop drinking milk.

[Bluegoat]

I'm no expert on the ability to eat dairy, but I did talk to a lot of Chinese people about it.  Most middle-aged Chinese people in China found dairy difficult to digest.  There was a strong feeling (well-founded or not) that adding dairy for the next generation was a good idea, to make them big and strong.  Many young Chinese were given dairy and have no problem eating it.  From what I have read, most people are born with the ability to digest milk, human and by extension other animals', but lose it (their gut no longer produces the enzymes?) if they stop drinking milk.

 

That might be part of it, though I know a fair number of people who are Asian in origin whose kids do eventually have to give up some or all dairy.  So I don't think eating it without stopping is the only issue.

 

That doesn't tend to be true of people from the northern parts of Asia though.  Dairy was an important part of the diet, just like in northern Europe.  And then dairy is also important on the Indian sub-continent.

[Laura Corin]

The Dutch don't seem to have done too badly on dairy:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34380895