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A bit befuzzled by the local school's views on sex harrasment for little kids

Soror

By Soror,
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Soror

Soror

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- bare with my cryptic writing as I try to respect  privacy--A elementary kid here has been put in detention because he drew a picture with bOOks and what they thought was a penis. The implication was they couldn't have such a kid around the other kids and the implication was that he must have learned something from nefarious places- like porn or abuse I guess. 

 

Really, all a boy has to do is to look down to see a penis and boobs are everywhere. How in the world do other kids not know what body parts males and females have? How is this traumatizing? Is this something we should encourage, not really but I don't see it as freak out worthy. I think it is far more damaging to treat such kid as some sick freak for such an action.

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SKL

SKL

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Yeah, that's crazy.

I remember when my kid sister was little (like 6?) and she drew people on horses and she'd add an appendage for no apparent reason.  It was not "appropriate" but it wasn't anything concerning at that age, she just needed to know not to do that at school etc.

 

Now if they told the kid to stop and he refused, he needs some sort of discipline.  It would depend on whether the offense was more about defying rules vs. not understanding the rule in the first place.

 

I do think it is reasonable to ask kids not to do that in school.  Just like we expect them not to pull down their pants in class.  They can learn appropriate behavior, but the reaction needs to be calm and mature.

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unsinkable

unsinkable

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They put him on detention ??!!

 

I can see that some drawings might raise red flags and hence, some concern for the child. But a punishment ?

 

What is it with drawing in American classrooms ? ( And UK ones. So I'm told :))

Oh, are we calling out countries?

 

Canada!

 

Man taken into custody and strip searched because his 4 yo daughter drew a picture of him with a gun and said he uses it to kill bad guys and monsters.

 

 

http://rt.com/usa/jail-sansone-gun-waterloo-333/

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swellmomma

swellmomma

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Some how I am not surprised by the punishment.  The zero tolerance stance of so many schools means zero common sense by many teachers.  I also know that some teachers are quick with metting out detention.  My dd15 was in ps for grade 1, she had detention everyday, 1 in school suspension- by the end of the school year she had zero recesses, zero gym class, zero fieldtrips, zero music class, had to each lunch in the office etc.  The reason, she would not do her assignments in class.  So when the teacher said they had to do X worksheet, dd would leave it on her desk and just quietly sit there in a silent protest and not do the work.  She was coming home with 4-5 hours of homework each night (everything she refused to do in school during the day), having just spent all day in her desk with no physical activity.  No matter how many times I told the teacher she was refusing to do the work because it was too easy for her and therefore boring, it continued happening.  THat is why she homeschools now.  At any rate, my point is some teachers just go right to punishments like detention rather than redirect or talking to kids, or thinking outside the box.  They apparently lack the capacity to use their brains for anything beyond their current curriculum (I also see it all the time in the school kids I watch, like the behaviour kids being locked in a time out room during a tantrum, yet I can calm them WAY faster and with less trauma with a hug and telling them I understand.  School personnel don't think like that.  They think if the punishment is high enough they will stop)

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SKL

SKL

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What is the age / grade level of the kid?

 

I do doubt that this was a one-time offense, but as the kids get older it becomes more clear that this is an act of disruption, not naivete.

 

Losing recess is often used for very minor offenses.  I don't agree with it for young kids, but it's pretty popular among teachers.  My kids (who are 7) can lose recess if they forget to turn in their homework by 8:30am.

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EKS

EKS

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That is really sad.

 

I have a picture on the bulletin board above my desk that my son drew that has been sitting there for years now.  It is one of those pictures that little kids draw of a person with the arms and legs coming out of a big head.  Well, this picture also has glasses (because it is a self portrait), and it also has something that looks like it might be a long, skinny beard.  It's not a beard.

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OneStepAtATime

OneStepAtATime

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Without details it is hard to determine if this really is as nuts as it sounds but honestly it does seem over the top.  Just ask him to stop, let the parents know so they can explain in more detail why that is not appropriate at school and see if he has questions.  

 

But a lot of schools are going nuts with the detention stuff.  I have posted before that at the ps my SIL teaches at they have a strictly enforced uniform.  One color of school shirt on M,W another one on T, TH and you only get one of each shirt to use for the year (have to purchase through the school).  Straight A student with single parent mom working 2 jobs and no washer dryer in their apartment did not have time to wash the T,Th shirt in time for Th.  T,Th shirt was really dirty.  Student wore the M,W shirt because it wasn't nearly as dirty and was at least the school shirt.  Got sent to detention for the day for wearing the wrong shirt and missed a test.

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rdj2027

rdj2027

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The middle School my #2 attended gave attention for many things without prior warning.  One time he did the wrong number of math problems (number 6 instead of 8) and was sent for detention as well as receiving a zero for his homework (he has vision issues and copied down the wrong number from the black board).  He was sent to detention because the name on his PE shirt had been washed out and was "not visible across the gym". We had detention for being late ( he had a doctor's appointment with and I had dropped him him off at class and the note at the office.  I should have dropped off the note with the teacher).  It went on and on and greatly contributed to our decision to homeschool.  

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Library Momma

Library Momma

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My experience with these situations is that harsh punishment is never the result of a first offense.  I also know parents whose children have received these punishments - detention, suspension, even a police visit, who will swear up and down that their children have never had previous warnings or infractions, when I know for a fact they have.  I am unsure whether they are embarrassed or In denial, i'm sure they feel it is a reflection of their parenting.

 

 

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SKL

SKL

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Wow, some of those stories are horrible.

 

I did hear about a KG kid getting suspended for sexual harrassment because he kissed a classmate.  At least that is how the story was told.

 

That said, most of the time there is some sort of process and multiple levels of warning before they get to the point of detention/suspension.

 

Missing recess isn't really considered detention, though, at least where I live.  My kid in 1st grade regularly lost recess and even lunch time over not finishing work that wasn't even graded.  It was a routine part of classroom discipline.  I did complain about it but other than assuring me my kid would be allowed to eat, they refused to budge.

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SKL

SKL

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I hate this practice of taking away recess. Kids NEED that time to move and to run and to expend some energy.

 

Yep, it's usually counterproductive, and that seems rather obvious.  But I guess it's not considered a big enough issue for the folks in charge to do anything about it.

 

When I told them to stop doing it to my kid, the response was "well, we really don't take away the whole recess, we just make her sit on the side and finish her work for 5 or 10 minutes before she can play."

 

But sorry, that was off topic from the OP.

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bolt.

bolt.

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If it was a picture of one person, with both breasts and a penis, I can see some level of concern about that, but more of a red-flag, keep an eye on it sort of thing.

 

I can also see "you should have been doing work not drawing (nude) pictures" as a discipline issue.

 

I can also see a potential bullying/harassment/disrespect issue if the drawing was intended or assumed to be intended to represent someone in specific... Or if it was being shown to other students with the intent or effect that the other students didn't like it: "Hey, look at my drawing! Naked person! You looked! Ha-ha!" ... That sort of thing would be a discipline thing.

 

In combination, with context, including emotion-based reactions from the adults, I can see minor "detentions" as a short-term reaction to this kind of drawing.

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Cricket

Cricket

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Yeah, that's crazy.

I remember when my kid sister was little (like 6?) and she drew people on horses and she'd add an appendage for no apparent reason.  It was not "appropriate" but it wasn't anything concerning at that age, she just needed to know not to do that at school etc.

 

Now if they told the kid to stop and he refused, he needs some sort of discipline.  It would depend on whether the offense was more about defying rules vs. not understanding the rule in the first place.

 

I do think it is reasonable to ask kids not to do that in school.  Just like we expect them not to pull down their pants in class.  They can learn appropriate behavior, but the reaction needs to be calm and mature.

 

Just copying ancient art.  :001_smile:

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JoJosMom

JoJosMom

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School just started here there hasn't been time for all these warnings that others are sure were given.

 

I think taking away recess is a horrible punishment regardless of the offense.

 

I agree that taking away recess is a bad idea.

 

My nephew went to a Christian school where taking away recess was a common consequence.  Until he reached 5th grade and Miss Brilliant was hired.  In her class, naughty boys ran laps at recess.  Her approach to discipline swept the school!

 

(And my nephew ran laps.  Lots and lots of laps.  Until, magically, his behavior improved. :ohmy: )

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Excelsior! Academy

Excelsior! Academy

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Unless there is more to the story, the school officials grossly over-reacted.  I could see raised eyebrows if the pictures were more than just drawings, like p @ r n positions, etc.  But straight b00ks and boy parts, meh.  Maybe he saw a billboard or magazine, maybe he saw a commercial, maybe he just learned about the birds and the bees, maybe he just thought it was funny.

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AndyJoy

AndyJoy

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The taking away of recess is counterproductive.

Totally. When I visit my parents I often take my son to recess at the preschool at their chutch. I was shocked to see the teacher of the 4 & 5 year old class take away recess for three kids who hadn't finished their handwriting worksheets! Plus, since she was hovering over them she wasn't properly supervising the other kids and kept yelling at/punishing the wrong kids in the various conflicts. No way my kids will ever go there.

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AndyJoy

AndyJoy

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If we're talking about a small child, first time, etc. that sounds ridiculous. If you make too big a deal about something like that when it is perfectly innocent, it can become too big of a deal and then the kid fixates on it. Like when your preschooler touches himself in public or your 5-year-old tries out the F word she overheard or your 7-year-old walks in on s*x. If you freak out rather than just being matter-of-fact I think you make things worse.

 

My sister drew a similar picture at 5, but fortunately it was at home and my mom just told her something like, "Sweetie, we draw pictures of people with clothes, just like you'd see them in public."

 

If a school wants to actually address s*xual harassment they should start with the 12-year-olds in my 6th grade class who handled being beat at basketball by describing me performing various acts. I can only hope the reason it was not addressed at all was because the principal's son and his best friend were the offenders.

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Unicorn.

Unicorn.

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If it was a picture of one person, with both breasts and a penis, I can see some level of concern about that, but more of a red-flag, keep an eye on it sort of thing.

 

I can also see "you should have been doing work not drawing (nude) pictures" as a discipline issue.

 

I can also see a potential bullying/harassment/disrespect issue if the drawing was intended or assumed to be intended to represent someone in specific... Or if it was being shown to other students with the intent or effect that the other students didn't like it: "Hey, look at my drawing! Naked person! You looked! Ha-ha!" ... That sort of thing would be a discipline thing.

 

In combination, with context, including emotion-oased reactions from the adults, I can see minor "detentions" as a short-term reaction to this kind of drawing.

Why in the world would that be any kind of red flag?  Maybe the kid is transgender, and knows it.  Maybe he/she loves mommy and daddy equally and rolled them both into one cool person.  But a red flag?  Seriously?

 

OP, I agree w/ Kinsa.  A kindy-3rd grader, I don't see an issue, but a 4th -6th grader should know better. However, I don't see detention as necessary unless the child was asked to put it away, and refused. 

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Farrar

Farrar

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If the punishment was, as some are suggesting, just for drawing when he shouldn't have been and not stopping, or even for showing the drawing around in a way to get attention that was disruptive to the class, then while I don't agree with taking away recess and it's not how I ran my classes as a teacher, then it doesn't seem absurd. If there are elements of the punishment beyond just missing recess for a day then it does begin to get absurd because that's a massive overreaction to those actions, especially in the first week of school.

 

On the other hand, if the main thrust of the punishment is specifically for "dirty" drawings, then it's just dead wrong. There should be no punishment at all.

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dirty ethel rackham

dirty ethel rackham

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Gee, when I was in first grade, I was doodling during some free time after I had finished a worksheet.  I really wasn't paying close attention to what I was drawing, but I was deep in thought.  As it turns out, I was drawing butts on my pencil case and then I was taking my pencil and poking holes in them.  The teacher heard the noise I was making and took a look at what I was doing.  Instead of freaking out, she asked my why I was drawing that.  As it turns out, earlier in the week, I had a shot in my rear end and I guess I was just acting it out.  She simply asked me to stop drawing that at school and to bring in a clean pencil case.  I am sure she told my mom, but there wasn't any backlash that I could remember.  I am sure that I would have never wanted to go to school again if I was humiliated for that.  (I was the type of kid who always wanted to please and would cry at the slightest cross word.) 

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Soror

Soror

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On the other hand, if the main thrust of the punishment is specifically for "dirty" drawings, then it's just dead wrong. There should be no punishment at all.

So far that seems to be the thought process, due to the statements about how you can't have kids like that around the others and counseling is needed.  

 

I can understand getting onto a kid for disturbing class but it seems a bit backwards and illogical to take away recess.

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SemiSweet

SemiSweet

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When ds was in 1st grade he drew some kind of man with a penis and they called me and sent a letter.  Ds was completely insistent that the guy was pooping though.  I think absolutely nothing of drawings like that and couldn't believe they made a big deal of it, I think they even sent him to the principal's office.  

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Alice

Alice

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When my son was 6 he went over to a new friend's house and the Mom let them play with chalk on the driveway. When I picked him up later she told me she'd looked out and both boys were giggling like crazy. When she went out my son had drawn an "anatomically correct" picture. Luckily, she was the kind of Mom who found it hilarious (she had older kids also). I did talk to him about the appropriateness of that kind of drawing at a friend's house or in a school setting just like I had to talk to him about the appropriateness of running around stark naked in front of our big bay kitchen window that faces a busy street. He knew he wasn't supposed to but like many boys that age he found that kind of think hilarious. 

 

He's matured since then. A bit. 

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Farrar

Farrar

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Counseling. What nonsense.

 

What are we really teaching little kids when they do things like this - when they draw dirty pictures, say dirty words, don't understand touching boundaries, etc. - and we react with huge punishments and loud words and extreme nos? We're teaching them that they should be ashamed, that there's something really wrong with them, that there's something wrong with being interested in bodies, or that this is a good way to get attention or mess with adults. None of those are good things. Schools are just making the situation worse. Argh. One of a million reasons I would never send my kids to school - I don't trust them not to do stupid stuff like this.

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QueenCat

QueenCat

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I agree that taking away recess is a bad idea.

 

My nephew went to a Christian school where taking away recess was a common consequence.  Until he reached 5th grade and Miss Brilliant was hired.  In her class, naughty boys ran laps at recess.  Her approach to discipline swept the school!

 

(And my nephew ran laps.  Lots and lots of laps.  Until, magically, his behavior improved. :ohmy: )

 

This is how they did it where my boys went to ps (pre-homeschooling). They had to walk or run laps, their choice. The more athletic ones ran, and were done sooner, while the less athletic usually chose to walk.

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*Lulu*

*Lulu*

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Counseling. What nonsense.

 

What are we really teaching little kids when they do things like this - when they draw dirty pictures, say dirty words, don't understand touching boundaries, etc. - and we react with huge punishments and loud words and extreme nos? We're teaching them that they should be ashamed, that there's something really wrong with them, that there's something wrong with being interested in bodies, or that this is a good way to get attention or mess with adults. None of those are good things. Schools are just making the situation worse. Argh. One of a million reasons I would never send my kids to school - I don't trust them not to do stupid stuff like this.

I agree.

 

And I also think that anatomically correct pictures=dirty is absurd.

 

Seriously. It is right up there with the people who sharpie mark and sticky note the art books at the library. Get a grip. They are nipples; pretty much everybody has them.

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Mimm

Mimm

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Counseling. What nonsense.

 

What are we really teaching little kids when they do things like this - when they draw dirty pictures, say dirty words, don't understand touching boundaries, etc. - and we react with huge punishments and loud words and extreme nos? We're teaching them that they should be ashamed, that there's something really wrong with them, that there's something wrong with being interested in bodies, or that this is a good way to get attention or mess with adults. None of those are good things. Schools are just making the situation worse. Argh. One of a million reasons I would never send my kids to school - I don't trust them not to do stupid stuff like this.

 

This. Young children have a very natural and normal curiosity about bodies and somewhat older boys usually (from what I've seen) naturally have a very weird sense of humor. Why not chalk this up to kids being kids and nonchalantly say, "We don't draw naked people at school." Put the drawing in the backpack so his parents can be entertained/embarrassed at home. ;)

 

But I can't imagine that treating this boy like this was anything but harmful to him. :(

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*Lulu*

*Lulu*

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This. Young children have a very natural and normal curiosity about bodies and somewhat older boys usually (from what I've seen) naturally have a very weird sense of humor. Why not chalk this up to kids being kids and nonchalantly say, "We don't draw naked people at school." Put the drawing in the backpack so his parents can be entertained/embarrassed at home. ;)

 

But I can't imagine that treating this boy like this was anything but harmful to him. :(

Exactly. If the picture is more than just anatomy I can see the red flags raising. Even then, if you suspect the child may have been in some way abused why would you PUNISH them? WTH kind of logic is that?

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HRAAB

HRAAB

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I am so glad I did not have my kids in school.  I am sure my oldest (then 5) would have been in detention for his drawings.  He drew snakes mating, grasshoppers mating, frogs mating, mayflies mating, etc.  His drawing were very detailed and meticulous.  Yeah, we watched a little too much Wild Discovery. 

 

Yes.  I still have a very accurate drawing my dd did of Michelangelo's David when she was elementary age.  We proudly displayed it on the kitchen wall.  All of her drawings were very anatomically accurate.  Even her doodles.

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blondeviolin

blondeviolin

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Yes. I still have a very accurate drawing my dd did of Michelangelo's David when she was elementary age. We proudly displayed it on the kitchen wall. All of her drawings were very anatomically accurate. Even her doodles.

Her doodles were accurate, huh? *snicker*

 

One of my kids drew stick figures with penises. Gi characters never had any extras, but the boys definitely did!

 

I'm still trying to teach my five-year-old it's not appropriate to comment on the size of my nipples in the middle of Barnes and Noble.

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bolt.

bolt.

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Why in the world would that be any kind of red flag? Maybe the kid is transgender, and knows it. Maybe he/she loves mommy and daddy equally and rolled them both into one cool person. But a red flag? Seriously?

 

OP, I agree w/ Kinsa. A kindy-3rd grader, I don't see an issue, but a 4th -6th grader should know better. However, I don't see detention as necessary unless the child was asked to put it away, and refused.

I believe I said it was possibly some concern -- maybe a red flag to keep an eye on. I didn't say it was definitely anything bad, nor that I was convince it was serious -- just that a range of possibilities exists: from the benign ones you mentioned, to other possibilities. Keeping eyes on the situation (just in case) harms no one.
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City Mouse

City Mouse

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Schools face the problem of having to deal with parents on opposite sides of the same issue. I have been in the middle so situations like this. One child does something mildly inappropriate. Another child goes home and tells her parents. The next day (or even later that afternoon) the parents are raising a stink because their child is in a class with a ----- (insert word of your choice).

I agree that a zero tolerance policy is often rediculous, but schools generally do that as a reaction to something.

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