a JAWM rant about the M word

[PeacefulChaos]

That would be 'Modesty', folks. 

And like I already said, this is JAWM, I found this totally frustrating and really don't want to argue about it further.  I do know, however, that there are a lot on here who share this opinion, so I felt like this would be a 'safe' place to vent my frustrations.

 

So there is a parenting page on FB that I 'like' - in general, I at least find the different ideas and questions that are posted to be interesting or put in my input, even though in general the page seems to appeal to some who are MUCH more conservative than I am.  I think that the group who 'runs' the page are a bit more middle of the road, not nearly as extreme as some of the other posters, which is why I liked the page to begin with.

So anyway, the topic of modesty comes up now and then on this page.  (for the purposes of this conversation, assume that modesty is talking about the way people dress, because that's how they are talking about it). 

I've seen some craziness.  With it getting closer to swimsuit season, the topic of modest swimwear will of course come up.  Some of them insist on rash guards and board shorts - sometimes even boys' board shorts - so that their girls are 'modest'.  Some of them say that they are making sure their boys are modest, too, so they have to wear rash guards as well.  :blink:  (Note: I don't mind rash guards.  I just think that making a kid wear them for 'modesty' reasons is a little extreme).  Some of them have let on that the more that can be worn, the better.  I've commented before on making sure that swimwear fits well and that it is suited to where they are swimming - too much extra material being a bad thing in currents, etc. 

But overall, the swimsuit comments - whatever.  To each their own.

 

But this week the topic came up of the school in Illinois that originally banned leggings for girls because they were 'distracting to boys'.  

The things that people were saying. 

I was livid. 

First off, this isn't a leggings debate.  I don't care whether people consider leggings pants or not.  I don't care if you don't allow your daughter to wear leggings because they are 'just like tights - and would you allow your daughter to go to the park just wearing tights?' (and no, actually, they AREN'T just like tights) 

But the fact that people - that WOMEN - can sit there and say that, yes, girls and women need to be responsible for what they wear and how it affects males ....... what?

That women can go so far as to say that any sin a man commits because of what a girl wears, the girl bears some of the guilt of that sin .... WHAT?!

WHAT?!

Some of them were so proud of themselves because they've 'never showed off their curves'.  Some of them talked about how grateful their husbands are for that.  What?

Wear what you want.  If you are happily walking around in shapeless, baggy clothes that give no hint to the fact that you are, in fact, a woman (because God FORBID that it would be obvious) - good for you.  I honestly don't care. 

But you know what?  Don't presume to be holier than the women who don't mind dressing like women, who don't mind the fact that hey, I have breasts and a backside and that's ok, and who decide to dress nice or -- gasp! -- even cute.

Don't presume that just because you do so means some man won't notice you. 

Oh dear... maybe women should just stay inside the house.  I mean, we wouldn't want to cause a brother to stumble, would we?! 

Because you never know what a man will find attractive.  It could be your fingers.  Or your ankles.  Your legs.  Your collarbone.  Your earlobes.  Your hairstyle.  Your eyes.  Your face in general.  Even if you don't put makeup on it.

Oh dear... how do we fix all that so that NOTHING that could possibly be attractive is covered?

Oh, wait... it still won't matter.  Women have gotten unwanted attention in layers and layers of bulky clothing in the freezing temps.  Who knows why?  What are all these women doing so wrong, getting attention like that? 

You wouldn't let your daughter go out wearing ____, would you?  Hmm... let's say I take my daughter to the park wearing leggings.  No, I wouldn't take her wearing just tights, but not because it's immodest, because it doesn't make sense.  Tights?  Really?  :rolleyes:  Anyway... let's say when we're at the park, or at the ice cream shop, or at the grocery store for pity's sake, and she catches the eye of someone less than awesome - someone who likes little girls (:ack2: I don't like the thought that goes with typing this, but yeah).  I highly doubt that what she's wearing will make a difference. 

 

What men and boys think and do is their responsibility.  Theirs.  Not mine.  Not my daughter's.  Not any woman's.  Theirs. 

I can't even.  Ugh.  So maddening.

 

:rant: 

 

And that's it.  Rant over.

[jenangelcat]

Welcome to the patriarchy.  It's a frustrating world to live in.   The worst part is all the women that buy into it.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

:iagree:  I can't say more because I get too worked up.

[Mergath]

Amen to that.

[catz]

Sing it!

[Xuzi]

Preach it.

[Catwoman]

So far, so good, but before this thread has a chance to jump off the rails, I hope everyone has noticed and will respect that Kara specifically classified this as a JAWM thread. :)

Not that a modesty thread would ever turn ugly or anything... :D

FWIW, I only see these modesty arguments online. I have never heard anyone talk about it IRL. Maybe it's a regional thing or more associated with certain religions or something, because none of the people I know sit around and talk about stuff like this over a cup of coffee. The only time something along those lines was mentioned was when Abercrombie was advertising the bikinis with padded bra tops for little girls. As I recall, the overwhelming consensus was :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Ellie]

I'm just going to keep liking everyone else's comments. :cheers2:

[Mandylubug]

Word.

[Xuzi]

I saw this French film online, and thought it nailed the difference between how men are treated and allowed to dress, and how women are treated and allowed to dress (along with other, important distinctions/differences in societies gender-related expectations).

 

It's in French, but has subtitles. Some swearing is involved, women jogging topless (because depicts men living like women and women living like men) and some sexual violence (not explicit, but you get the idea what's going on).

 

http://www.upworthy.com/a-french-film-showing-men-what-being-a-woman-feels-like-kinda

[PeacefulChaos]

I saw this French film online, and thought it nailed the difference between how men are treated and allowed to dress, and how women are treated and allowed to dress (along with other, important distinctions/differences in societies gender-related expectations).

 

It's in French, but has subtitles. Some swearing is involved, women jogging topless (because depicts men living like women and women living like men) and some sexual violence (not explicit, but you get the idea what's going on).

 

http://www.upworthy.com/a-french-film-showing-men-what-being-a-woman-feels-like-kinda

What is it called?  I clicked on the link but I still didn't see the title of the film.  :)

[Xuzi]

What is it called?  I clicked on the link but I still didn't see the title of the film.  :)

Oppressed Majority.

[PeacefulChaos]

Oppressed Majority.

Thanks!  :)

[Mrs Mungo]

FWIW, I only see these modesty arguments online. I have never heard anyone talk about it IRL. Maybe it's a regional thing or more associated with certain religions or something

Wow, really? That would be a relief. I've dealt with it a lot IRL.

One homeschool group had a "parents and students must be modestly dressed" phrase in their paperwork with giant "CLEAVAGE IS NOT MODEST" statement.

I am part of a group that recently decided not to go camping with another group that wanted all of the girls to wear knee length shorts.

I see women of all shapes and sizes covered up or not so much at the beach. It doesn't bother me, but it bothers some people *a lot* who should just mind their own business rather than griping about it. I have dealt with it from coast to coast.

Eta: I agree that the patriarchal nature of it is what bothers me the most. It is sort of the gateway drug of patriarchy. And I am talking about the brand of patriarchy that makes women believe they are never allowed to say anything negative to their husbands and should do all of the work around the house that he doesn't want to do. Ugh!!

[elegantlion]

As the mother of a son, amen.

[Wheres Toto]

I always hate when I see things that say "if leggings were pants, they'd be called pants".

 

Yeah, cause....jeans, capris, trousers, khakis, gauchos ....none of those are pants because they aren't called "pants"??

[Carrie12345]

I will never, ever understand blaming a victim. Tell them to reopen the discussion when small children, old women, and prisoners are no longer violated. Unless the women in question find those populations sexually attractive, in which case they have bigger issues than clothing.

[Crimson Wife]

What's that Scripture quote about worrying about the beam in one's own eye rather than the speck in one's neighbor's eye? I have my own standards of modesty that I follow for myself and my family. More conservative than some people's standards and less conservative than others. It's not my place to be the modesty police for people outside my family.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That would be 'Modesty', folks. 

And like I already said, this is JAWM, I found this totally frustrating and really don't want to argue about it further.  I do know, however, that there are a lot on here who share this opinion, so I felt like this would be a 'safe' place to vent my frustrations.

 

So there is a parenting page on FB that I 'like' - in general, I at least find the different ideas and questions that are posted to be interesting or put in my input, even though in general the page seems to appeal to some who are MUCH more conservative than I am.  I think that the group who 'runs' the page are a bit more middle of the road, not nearly as extreme as some of the other posters, which is why I liked the page to begin with.

So anyway, the topic of modesty comes up now and then on this page.  (for the purposes of this conversation, assume that modesty is talking about the way people dress, because that's how they are talking about it). 

I've seen some craziness.  With it getting closer to swimsuit season, the topic of modest swimwear will of course come up.  Some of them insist on rash guards and board shorts - sometimes even boys' board shorts - so that their girls are 'modest'.  Some of them say that they are making sure their boys are modest, too, so they have to wear rash guards as well.  :blink:  (Note: I don't mind rash guards.  I just think that making a kid wear them for 'modesty' reasons is a little extreme).  Some of them have let on that the more that can be worn, the better.  I've commented before on making sure that swimwear fits well and that it is suited to where they are swimming - too much extra material being a bad thing in currents, etc. 

But overall, the swimsuit comments - whatever.  To each their own.

 

But this week the topic came up of the school in Illinois that originally banned leggings for girls because they were 'distracting to boys'.  

The things that people were saying. 

I was livid. 

First off, this isn't a leggings debate.  I don't care whether people consider leggings pants or not.  I don't care if you don't allow your daughter to wear leggings because they are 'just like tights - and would you allow your daughter to go to the park just wearing tights?' (and no, actually, they AREN'T just like tights) 

But the fact that people - that WOMEN - can sit there and say that, yes, girls and women need to be responsible for what they wear and how it affects males ....... what?

That women can go so far as to say that any sin a man commits because of what a girl wears, the girl bears some of the guilt of that sin .... WHAT?!

WHAT?!

Some of them were so proud of themselves because they've 'never showed off their curves'.  Some of them talked about how grateful their husbands are for that.  What?

Wear what you want.  If you are happily walking around in shapeless, baggy clothes that give no hint to the fact that you are, in fact, a woman (because God FORBID that it would be obvious) - good for you.  I honestly don't care. 

But you know what?  Don't presume to be holier than the women who don't mind dressing like women, who don't mind the fact that hey, I have breasts and a backside and that's ok, and who decide to dress nice or -- gasp! -- even cute.

Don't presume that just because you do so means some man won't notice you. 

Oh dear... maybe women should just stay inside the house.  I mean, we wouldn't want to cause a brother to stumble, would we?! 

Because you never know what a man will find attractive.  It could be your fingers.  Or your ankles.  Your legs.  Your collarbone.  Your earlobes.  Your hairstyle.  Your eyes.  Your face in general.  Even if you don't put makeup on it.

Oh dear... how do we fix all that so that NOTHING that could possibly be attractive is covered?

Oh, wait... it still won't matter.  Women have gotten unwanted attention in layers and layers of bulky clothing in the freezing temps.  Who knows why?  What are all these women doing so wrong, getting attention like that? 

You wouldn't let your daughter go out wearing ____, would you?  Hmm... let's say I take my daughter to the park wearing leggings.  No, I wouldn't take her wearing just tights, but not because it's immodest, because it doesn't make sense.  Tights?  Really?  :rolleyes:  Anyway... let's say when we're at the park, or at the ice cream shop, or at the grocery store for pity's sake, and she catches the eye of someone less than awesome - someone who likes little girls ( :ack2: I don't like the thought that goes with typing this, but yeah).  I highly doubt that what she's wearing will make a difference. 

 

What men and boys think and do is their responsibility.  Theirs.  Not mine.  Not my daughter's.  Not any woman's.  Theirs. 

I can't even.  Ugh.  So maddening.

 

:rant:

 

And that's it.  Rant over.

 

Excellent rant.  The part you bolded at the end is something we have stressed to our sons over and over and over....

 

[LMD]

What is it called?  I clicked on the link but I still didn't see the title of the film.  :)

 

I found it on youtube Opressed Majority.

 

I won't link because the still has bare breasts.   :)

[BrookValley.]

Agreed. And, like you, I don't care one bit how you dress or what your personal standards of modesty (or immodesty) are; that's your business. But the patriarchy, the victim-shaming, all that--that's what gets me. That's ignorant and dangerous.

[DianeW88]

Agreeing with you 100%.  We are responsible only for ourselves, and not the sins of others.

[Word Nerd]

I don't think it's outrageous for a school (or workplace, for that matter) to determine that leggings are inappropriate for school or with a dress code requiring that a shirt, shorts, or skirt must be worn over leggings. Kids at my DDs' schools can't wear jeans with rips, short shorts, midriff-baring tops, tank tops, spaghetti straps, or even flip flops to school, among other things. The school district we lived in when I homeschooled forbid students from wearing solid red or blue shirts, bandanas, or Southpole-brand clothing because the area had a problem with gangs in the schools. It's the "because it's distracting to boys" part that's a problem, and if those were the exact words used, whoever said it should apologize and clarify.

[OneStepAtATime]

I have my own version of modesty which is usually a bit more conservative than most of my friends (or what my husband would wish), but mostly they let me do my thing and I let them do theirs and we don't judge each other's choices.  They are just personal preferences and comfort zones.  But all of us have had issues with cat calls, implied suggestions, etc.  I know that several of my less conservative friends have experienced being treated really poorly by men and the poor treatment being justified because of their clothing choices.  Blaming the victim instead of addressing the poor behavior of the person behaving poorly is very destructive and perpetuates itself generation after generation. 

 

When I was working at a TV station in another city I was talking with one of the anchors there (attractive single man). He and I and a couple of others (another woman and a man) were just sort of killing time between takes for some promotional material.  He was talking about going to a bar the night before and was genuinely trying to understand how he had offended the woman he was talking to there.  He wanted honest feedback. Apparently she was wearing a dress that showed cleavage and was relatively form fitting.  He did not know her.  She had come with several friends (males and females) and had come to see a particular band performing.  He introduced himself and started talking with her, they seemed to be hitting it off and he leaned in and privately told her he thought she had "a hot rack".  She slapped him and asked him to go elsewhere.  He was very upset that she had taken such offense and felt she was way out of line.  He wanted to know why, if she didn't want her cleavage "complimented", did she wear revealing clothing?  I spent over 20 minutes trying to explain what my thoughts and theories were but realized that there was this huge chasm between us on so many levels and he would never understand why his comment was not a "compliment" or appropriate, irregardless of what she was wearing.   :(

 

Edited to add i do think schools have the right to impose dress codes based on specific needs within their community and situation.  But if the reason is strictly so that they don't have to worry about boys "getting distracted" or behaving badly, then as a pp said, that doesn't address the underlying issue at all and isn't the right approach (IMO).  The pre-teen/teen years are hard ones.  Hormones are raging.  Children need clear cut guidelines and support and consistent and positive role models to know what appropriate behavior is.  Telling girls to cover up so that you don't have to deal with the boys isn't helping anyone long term.  Girls need to be taught how to deal with boys and boys need to be taught how to deal with girls, irregardless of dress.  Once they get into the workforce (or even college) they may be exposed to EVERYTHING under the sun and probably won't have a parent/teacher around to guide them....They need to have already been exposed to those guidelines and had those guidelines consistently reinforced, preferably not just from parents but from other authority figures, too.

[I.Dup.]

I agree with you. What really cracks me up is when it's a bunch of middle-aged moms of many patting themselves on the back for dressing modestly as to "not cause their brother to stumble." As if it's folk like us that are causing the men to "stumble."

[Danestress]

Agreeing with you 100%. We are responsible only for ourselves, and not the sins of others.

I personally don't think it is a sin to be distracted or think about sex.

And while I do think what girls wear can be distracting, I am not particularly concerned about it. Men are often very productive and creative during the more distracted periods of their lives. I would like to see some research that show that thinking about sex is a negative force that destroys productivity or results in poor performance.

[Moxie]

I agree with you. What really cracks me up is when it's a bunch of middle-aged moms of many patting themselves on the back for dressing modestly as to "not cause their brother to stumble." As if it's folk like us that are causing the men to "stumble."

Watch it, sister!! I'm an almost middle aged mom of many and I can still make a man stumble!

[ktgrok]

The only "modesty" thing I've seen in real life was on a list about what is permissable to wear at the catholic summer camp my son might go to. It had rules for boys and girls, and the "modest" requirement for shorts/skirts was no more than FIVE inches above the knee. I don't care who you are, that's not unreasonable, lol! The local schools require longer than that. 

[HRAAB]

Wow, really? That would be a relief. I've dealt with it a lot IRL.

One homeschool group had a "parents and students must be modestly dressed" phrase in their paperwork with giant "CLEAVAGE IS NOT MODEST" statement.

Iam part of a group that recently decided not to go camping with another group that wanted all of the girls to wear knee length shorts.

I see women of all shapes and sizes covered up or not so much at the beach. It doesn't bother me, but it bothers some people *a lot* who should just mind their own business rather than griping about it. I have dealt with it from coast to coast.

Eta: I agree that the patriarchal nature of it is what bothers me the most. It is sort of the gateway drug of patriarchy. And I am talking about the brand of patriarchy that makes women believe they are never allowed to say anything negative to their husbands and should do all of the work around the house that he doesn't want to do. Ugh!!

 

Try a family camp where all the females (young and old) are wearing dresses.  No, we never went, but I saw pictures from it.

[kroe1]

Women's feelings on appropriate dress always make me so confused. The same ones who say it is Ok to show cleavage and men just should not look are also the ones who might banish the cleavage bearing girls dancing on a rapper's video. It seems there is such a fine line between appropriate and degrading. And that line is constantly bouncing around to the whim of the girl wearing the clothes.

I remember reading several studies years ago, don't know if it applies now, that women's clothing choices are largely based on equaling or outdoing other women at the same event that the clothes will be worn to. (It has very little to do with men.). Otherwise, we would all dress in high heels and sparkly dresses while cleaning out the refrigerator. High heels and sparkly dresses make most of us feel prettier and more self confident than baggy pants and a sweatshirt, after all. Interestingly, comfort takes a back seat many times in women's clothing selections especially if other women will be at the event. Cleavage hanging out, for most of us, is a pain to keep adjusting the top, making sure the bra isn't peeking out, and tugging at the tight push up. For most, modest clothing is much more comfortable, grandma panties vs. thongs, for example.

I think what is more important for us to ask as we pick out our clothing is, "why exactly am I choosing this outfit?" With a heart to heart, one may be surprised at the answer. I bet it has less to do with male oppression than we think.

[Mrs Mungo]

Cleavage does not equal necessarily equate with "hanging out" or a wearing tight push-up bra.

Paying women to appear naked (have you ever seen European MTV? Or the Blurred Lines video?) in your music video and dance around you while you are fully clothed is degrading. A woman choosing to wear a swimsuit that is comfortable to her and she feels confident in on the beach where other people are wearing swimsuits is not degrading.

Do we talk about modesty in my house? Yes, modesty with a little m. Modesty with a little m that means that you are leaving something to the imagination, wearing clothes that are appropriate for the occasion, wearing clothes that show you have a healthy dose of self-respect. Modesty with a big M is what the OP is talking about and, yes, has everything to do with the oppression of women, to include not allowing women to do sports because they can't wear proper attire.

[DianeW88]

I personally don't think it is a sin to be distracted or think about sex.

And while I do think what girls wear can be distracting, I am not particularly concerned about it. Men are often very productive and creative during the more distracted periods of their lives. I would like to see some research that show that thinking about sex is a negative force that destroys productivity or results in poor performance.

 

I wasn't referring to men thinking about s*x.  I don't consider that a sin at all.  I was referring to the "blame the victim" mentality that sometimes happens if a girl is raped.  "Well, look at the way she was dressed. She was asking for it."  No...she wasn't.  It's not her fault, it's the rapist's.  100%.  She is not responsible for his sin.  I should have been more specific.
 

[Joanne]

Is it still JAWM if I agree *beyond* the point you are making?
 

I think boys/men should be held accountable - totally for their own actions and thinking.

 

I also question the intense phobia around sexual thoughts. Yes, I am familiar with the Christian scripture used to support it. But I can't get behind a God or culture that doesn't embrace biology; the normal physiological response of seeing an attractive person. I have some "age appropriate" standards in my family, and my school has a dress code I support.

 

But I think that make up, dressing fashionably in ways that may actually *highlight* areas of my body that are attractive, and seeking to get and accept looks of interest is perfectly, absolutely, wonderfully fine.

 

As a parent, I help my kids (if necessary) manage when they go over the line with thinking about one thing to the exclusion of others (X box, Pretty Little Liars, girls/boys). If noticing the sex they are interested in becomes distracting to that point, or speaks to actions that speak to character, we'll talk.

 

But protect my children from enjoyable thoughts? I think that is silly and dishonoring to having life "more abundantly".

 

[Melissa in Australia]

Shrug

 

 

People here make their kids wear rash tops while swimming to stop their kids getting skin cancer. even adults wear them to reduce the risk of skin cancer.

 

 

 

I do believe that some people  dress in a way to try and get attention from males. For example shorts so short that bottom cheeks are actually hanging out the bottom

 

 

 

[bolt.]

It's fine to ban leggings because stretch-fit creates a less-than-serious-and-professional look for a school. That's an image and dress code issue. That's fair. (I went to a school that banned all shorts.) it's idiotic to make it about boys and sex.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Just agreeing with you (I'm in leggings and a leather vest, and taught Sunday school this morning, so there.)

[PeacefulChaos]

Shrug
 
 
People here make their kids wear rash tops while swimming to stop their kids getting skin cancer. even adults wear them to reduce the risk of skin cancer.
 
 
 
I do believe that some people  dress in a way to try and get attention from males. For example shorts so short that bottom cheeks are actually hanging out the bottom

  
Oh yeah, lots of people around here wear rash guards, too. I don't have a problem with them or think twice about people wearing them (granted, I don't think twice about most things people wear, unless I liked it a lot and want to go buy one for myself :D ) ...it just made me :blink: when some of the moms were talking about them as if their sole purpose was modesty, etc. I will say that for places with a dress code for swimming, I'm glad they were invented (camps and such) - when I was in middle school a lot of the girls had to wear t shirts over their swimsuits. Because that's safe. :rolleyes: :). We don't wear them here but we probably should - we all just prefer as little clothing as possible when swimming and/or playing in the water. The boys have mentioned them before, and if they want them, I'll get them one. :)
Even if a girl does dress in short shorts with her backside showing, that doesn't mean she's deserving of something bad happening to her, or that she's responsible for any wrong actions that a predator may take.

Watch it, sister!! I'm an almost middle aged mom of many and I can still make a man stumble!

 
:lol: I get the funniest pick up lines when I'm at work. Not that that's making a man stumble lol... But it made me think of it.

 

I don't think it's outrageous for a school (or workplace, for that matter) to determine that leggings are inappropriate for school or with a dress code requiring that a shirt, shorts, or skirt must be worn over leggings. Kids at my DDs' schools can't wear jeans with rips, short shorts, midriff-baring tops, tank tops, spaghetti straps, or even flip flops to school, among other things. The school district we lived in when I homeschooled forbid students from wearing solid red or blue shirts, bandanas, or Southpole-brand clothing because the area had a problem with gangs in the schools. It's the "because it's distracting to boys" part that's a problem, and if those were the exact words used, whoever said it should apologize and clarify.

Yah, i no problem with dress codes. It was their original reasoning that was insane.

[Catwoman]

Watch it, sister!! I'm an almost middle aged mom of many and I can still make a man stumble!

Me, too.

I just stick my foot out when they walk by.

Easy peasy.

[shukriyya]

For most, modest clothing is much more comfortable, grandma panties vs. thongs, for example.

Oh my, not for this WTMer. Granny panties are supremely uncomfortable with all that thick fabric bunching up around the waist or higher if you really hike 'em up :lol: A thong OTOH is a barely there piece of almost insubstantial fabric, no lines, no constriction and no hiking necessary.

[Hikin' Mama]

I agree with you!

I wish people would just keep themselves content with dressing in their own version of modesty instead of spending useless energy worrying about the modesty of others.

I don't wear a bikini, but I could care less if someone else does. I don't show cleavage (mainly because I don't have any dang cleavage, ha ha!), but I don't care if anyone else does. I don't wear skinny jeans, but some of my friends are stinkin' cute in theirs! I do wear running tights and short running shorts (are you running away in shock and horror? : ), and I really don't care what anyone thinks when I do. My personal standard of modesty is just that, mine.

ETA: Just to clarify, the above is not really a standard of modesty, but rather my personal preferences. :)

[Ameena]

I see both sides of it. We dress modestly for religious reasons. For me, that means everything but the hands & feet covered at all times & looser fitting clothing when possible. Even in 105+ degree hot summer unless I'm in the house with the curtains closed. Working on covering the hair at all times, and wearing less pants. For DD, that means her shirt needs to go below her bottom {unless it's tucked inside something like overalls}, and she wears leggings / pants most of the time, even under dresses. Only on the hottest of days do I let her wear shorts / tank tops and only at home. By teaching her to dress modestly now, I am in hopes that she will continue to do so when she reaches puberty / adulthood and it is expected of her in our faith.

 

 

While I would never condemn anyone for dressing in what I feel is immodest, OTOH I don't want my young impressionable daughter {or son, if I had one} exposed to what I would view as extreme immodesty. I'm talking stuff like tube tops & daisy dukes, or men walking around in shorts that look like boxers, etc. And yes, I feel it goes both ways. The teaching in my faith for both males & females is that the 1st look / glance isn't a sin - it's an accident. But after that if you look again - yes it's a sin on the person looking. IF the person dressing in that manner is fully aware that doing so is immodest TO THEM & they are doing it on purpose, then yes it's a sin for them as well. So if they believe dressing that way is fine - not a sin for them. However, stuff like predators etc are a whole different ball game and there is no excuse for those folks. They do what they do because of a twisted sense of attraction and that has nothing to do with how their victims dressed. I personally know a friend who wears full hijab with the face veil & abaya {the long dress over clothing}. And she was very nearly a victim to a pervert, even with all that. Thankfully an office drove by & heard her screaming.

 

Stuff like the leggings issue is why I'm a fan of split s*x classrooms / schools for middle school & higher. That way there are no distractions to impede the learning process. This is speaking as a former hormonal mess pre-teen & teen who spent more time oogling the boys than anything else in school / church / anywhere else.

[Desert Strawberry]

I cannot fathom any mother telling her sons that a girl who dresses a certain way is "asking for it", essentially giving them permission to rape or abuse any girl who doesn't dress to her standards. But Mrs. Hall's blog post a few months ago proves that some do.

I want my sons to know that no one deserves mistreatment, and they are always responsible for their actions. I don't care what anyone says or does.

[Hoot]

Why is there no standing ovation emoticon? Yes. A thousand times YES.

[fdrinca]

The rationale is absurd, insulting, and suggests that the boys need better training in impulse control. 

 

Although, as a mother of little girls, I find it very troubling the types of clothing that is marketed to them. I've told my husband many times that I'd much rather have my daughters nude at the beach than in a bikini. (My oldest daughter is 5, so take that for what it's worth.) I find it concerning when  style of clothing made to highlight an adult woman's body is redesigned for a child's body, whether it be swim suits, fitted t-shirts, or tightly cut jeans.

 

[bolt.]

The rationale is absurd, insulting, and suggests that the boys need better training in impulse control.

Although, as a mother of little girls, I find it very troubling the types of clothing that is marketed to them. I've told my husband many times that I'd much rather have my daughters nude at the beach than in a bikini. (My oldest daughter is 5, so take that for what it's worth.) I find it concerning when style of clothing made to highlight an adult woman's body is redesigned for a child's body, whether it be swim suits, fitted t-shirts, or tightly cut jeans.

I think that's why I'm bugged by some pre-pubescent dresses for girls, where they have distinct flounces, ruffles, ruching, cross-crossing fabric in the chest area... I don't think that area needs special detailing just to mimic breasts. They don't have breasts. Dresses for pre-pubescent girls should be not only fitted to their actual body form, but styled in a way that respects that form-that-is, not the form-that-will be. Yes: girls develop at different times, so clothes vary, it just bugs me.

Sorry, not on the topic. Not intended as any kind of disagreement with the op... Just a thought that spawned.

[Trish]

I kind of like that the Ultra Modest Crowd dresses differently. That way I can see instantly they are part of another tribe, not mine.

[shukriyya]

Except when it comes right down to it, we're all actually part of the same tribe. And that's what we've got to find a way to live with.

[Catwoman]

I kind of like that the Ultra Modest Crowd dresses differently. That way I can see instantly they are part of another tribe, not mine.

I don't really care how they dress. I just care about whether or not they seem to be nice people.

Obviously, if they judge me on the way I dress, I'll probably never get to know them anyway, and I guess that's OK, too.

[KungFuPanda]

My daughter wore 'just leggings' until she was old enough for the slim sizes to kick in. NOTHING else fit her and I had to put a stitch in all of the leggings!

When I got the most male attention in my life I was LITERALLY covered in camouflage from neck to ankle, hair up, and no make-up. I actually get more respect now that I'm a bellydancer. I'm showing more skin, but I'm also surrounded by a more mature crowd of people. The problem has ALWAYS been how the men handle themselves and the 18-24 male demographic isn't the most evolved.

[Catwoman]

My daughter wore 'just leggings' until she was old enough for the slim sizes to kick in. NOTHING else fit her and I had to put a stitch in all of the leggings!.

My friend's dd was exactly the same way -- and even some of the leggings were baggy on her!

My friend was thrilled when she could finally start buying slims for her... but there are still only a few brands that are "slim enough."