Socialization

[JennyD]

Adam, my children are the same ages as yours. I can't speak to questions about the long term, obviously, but here are many here who can and have. I will say, though, that pretty much everyone I knew insisted (and continues to insist) the preschool is crucial for children to learn to separate from their parents, take turns, and share. My oldest did not go to preschool. And yet he separates just fine, and he is no better or worse at sharing and taking turns than all of his other little friends.

 

So my philosophy going forward on this is to take it one year at a time, and if the kids seem to be turning into freaks, well, then we can reevaluate.

 

I do think that children need friends, and I can see how that making and maintaining connections without the infrastructure of school is going to be an ongoing challenge, particularly since we are not Christian. However, I think it can be done -- obviously, since lots of other people do it -- but if for some reason I just can't make that happen and we are all becoming too isolated, well, again, we can rethink things then.

 

In the meantime, homeschooling offers so many other benefits that I'm reluctant to rule it out now for problems that don't yet exist.

 

I will say (and I think another poster mentioned this as well) that I have noticed in my son's Suzuki music class that he and the other homeschooled child there are definitely the worst at remembering to raise their hands before they speak. We remind him before class, and he's getting better, but I have to think he'd have a better handle on this if he went to school. That's not nearly enough reason to send him to school, mind you, at least IMO, but it is a difference.

[Farrar]

 

Definitions: I can't give a rigorous definition, and of course no one can. The mother who wrote about the child who spoke out of turn and went off on tangents hit the nail on the head. (And since she is aware of the problem I'm sure she will be able to deal with it successfully.) But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem. They don't know how to talk to people who don't agree with them. They don't know not to start a formal debate without consent from the other party. It's disingenuous to deny the existence of these people, particularly if you're all involved in co-ops and social groups and can see it in other peoples' kids. (Though I don't believe that anyone who denied the existence of a socialization problem/hurdle also mentioned that their children participated in these groups. Perhaps that's just a coincidence.)

 

 

I know others have pointed this out, but I must say I taught school at various levels and in different types of environments for about a decade and if anyone thinks it's at all unusual to meet a child of any schooling background who struggles to maintain a linear trail of thought when conversing with adults, then that person hasn't spent enough time around children in general to know what they're talking about.

[FO4UR]

It generated replies because it is a hot-button issue within the community. I don't know how familiar you are with internet forums. Generally one spends some time getting to know a community before one begins poking it with a stick. Otherwise, people may think one has not been properly socialized.

:iagree:

 

I *heart* Mrs Mungo!:001_smile: GO read her responses one more time.

 

 

 

5, 3, and 6 mos. My 5-year-old is in kindergarten in a private Christian school.

 

 

 

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

I think you are drawing a false assumption. Even if a homeschooler NEVER went to the park or to the grocery store or joined a club, their social skills are developed by their *parents* and not simply surrendered to whatever innate social capacity he has. Ex. If you speak to your wife with "please" and "thank you" then your ds will also. If you act like a jerk, your ds will also. These things are learned. Homeschoolers have more time to learn from their parents rather than 25 other kids of the exact same age.

 

Many HSers will tell you that they HS for social reasons, and this is likely what they mean. I mean, go out pick a few 5yo's to teach your ds how to play nicely...without active adult involvement this is a nightmare! Multiply that by 25 kids and 1 adult.

 

I worked in daycare while I earned my BSE. After seeing "socialization" in action, I decided my dc would HS. What we see happen there is not healthy imHo.

 

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

Homeschooling doesn't change a person's personality. There are socially awkward people in ps and private schools and hs's...

 

Now, I have gotten comments...when my 8yo stopped playing to help a toddler who fell find his mommy he got comments like "Oh thank you! That was so nice of you! Most kids would just pass him by and keep playing..." ds looked at this lady confused b/c he simply acted out of social habit. So, maybe I'm raising one of the weird ones. idk:tongue_smilie:

 

We also had an experience not long ago where ds8 dealt with a bully at the park. Honestly, I am SO SO SO glad I was there to see instead of him trying to navigate that alone...or based on what other 8yo's would tell him. Most 8yo's cannot find that balance between standing up for themselves and becoming a bully themselves without adult help.

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Again, I think you are making assumptions that are simply not true. Your kids, your (potential) homeschool, your decision on how/when to teach your dc social skills. Other people's mistakes are not yours.

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

 

This last paragraph shows me that you have't met enough HSers to base your decision on HSers that you know.:001_smile:

 

I worked in youth ministry for years...I've worked with tons of HSers and PSers. If we are going to make generalizations based on my experiences I would definitely say that HSers are better "socialized" I've never met ONE HSer who was afraid to ask me to use the bathroom, but I've met a few PSers who were. (true story) HSers generally don't get into the "pecking order" garbage with as much gusto. PSers are more likely to remain strictly in their "clique." All these things I've seen indicate that PS is more likely to produce a socially inept child.

 

Granted, my kids do lack some classroom management skills...I hope they never lose their inhibitions in those regards b/c it will serve them well in the future.:auto:

[Laurie4b]

But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem. They don't know how to talk to people who don't agree with them. They don't know not to start a formal debate without consent from the other party. It's disingenuous to deny the existence of these people, particularly if you're all involved in co-ops and social groups and can see it in other peoples' kids. (Though I don't believe that anyone who denied the existence of a socialization problem/hurdle also mentioned that their children participated in these groups. Perhaps that's just a coincidence.)

 

Thanks again for your thoughts,

Adam

 

Are you aware of Asperger's Syndrome?

[Laurie4b]

But you talk to some kids and the smallest thing sends them off rambling, apropos to nothing, about constitutional law or whatever. It's neat that they can talk about constitutional law, but if they don't know how to have a normal conversation, then that's a problem. They don't know how to talk to people who don't agree with them. They don't know not to start a formal debate without consent from the other party. It's disingenuous to deny the existence of these people, particularly if you're all involved in co-ops and social groups and can see it in other peoples' kids. (Though I don't believe that anyone who denied the existence of a socialization problem/hurdle also mentioned that their children participated in these groups. Perhaps that's just a coincidence.)

 

Thanks again for your thoughts,

Adam

 

Are you aware of Asperger's Syndrome?

[happi duck]

...And, if you are an author looking for quotes, you may only use my remarks in their entirety and with my express permission. Did I cover all my legal bases?...

 

:lol: (writer was my first thought)

[Crissy]

Hello,

 

I'm looking for people's thoughts on socialization. Thanks,

Adam

 

I certainly cannot speak for anyone else, but one of my boys (16 yo) would definitely have a socialization problem if we had not chosen to address it. He struggles to communicate easily with people he doesn't know well. He has always been shy and would be perfectly comfortable hiding himself in a book when he's in public rather than interacting with strangers.

We decided long ago to work with him in this area, put him in situations where he can practice social skills, and learn to communicate more effectively.

 

He started volunteering at the local library when he was 11 years old. His primary job was to shelve books, but often enough folks would ask him for help finding a title or the general location of an item. The four years that he spent volunteering were a great help.

 

He is now in the local public high school and he has made a handful of wonderful friends. He has also learned to open up to his teachers. To get to this point we did a fair amount of role playing so he felt comfortable in his approach.

 

His newest adventure is umpiring Little League baseball. He has to be able to raise his voice, make a call, and explain himself to either of the coaches who may question his call. My husband has been an umpire for 40 years so again, role playing has been helpful.

 

All of this is in addition to frequent events he attends for our small business. He meets a fair number of people, professional athletes and otherwise, who expect him to shake their hand, look them in the eye and answer their questions with a strong, clear voice.

 

It has taken a lot of effort on his part, and we feel he has been incredibly successful. Just last night we all agreed that he will be taking an out-of-state trip on his own this summer and we absolutely believe he has the skills to get where he needs to go and to find the proper help if necessary.

 

I am not a troll. But I am glad that I deleted one of the original sentences of my message, "If you don't believe there is a socialization problem, then your child is probably an exemplar of it." Because there's no call for needless provocation. :)

 

 

Good call. :D

[Scarlett]

I certainly cannot speak for anyone else, but one of my boys (16 yo) would definitely have a socialization problem if we had not chosen to address it. He struggles to communicate easily with people he doesn't know well. He has always been shy and would be perfectly comfortable hiding himself in a book when he's in public rather than interacting with strangers.

We decided long ago to work with him in this area, put him in situations where he can practice social skills, and learn to communicate more effectively.

 

He started volunteering at the local library when he was 11 years old. His primary job was to shelve books, but often enough folks would ask him for help finding a title or the general location of an item. The four years that he spent volunteering were a great help.

 

He is now in the local public high school and he has made a handful of wonderful friends. He has also learned to open up to his teachers. To get to this point we did a fair amount of role playing so he felt comfortable in his approach.

 

His newest adventure is umpiring Little League baseball. He has to be able to raise his voice, make a call, and explain himself to either of the coaches who may question his call. My husband has been an umpire for 40 years so again, role playing has been helpful.

 

All of this is in addition to frequent events he attends for our small business. He meets a fair number of people, professional athletes and otherwise, who expect him to shake their hand, look them in the eye and answer their questions with a strong, clear voice.

 

It has taken a lot of effort on his part, and we feel he has been incredibly successful. Just last night we all agreed that he will be taking an out-of-state trip on his own this summer and we absolutely believe he has the skills to get where he needs to go and to find the proper help if necessary.

 

 

Good call. :D

 

Awesome. LOVE to hear stories like this.

 

Clearly your parenting helped your son...not being in a class room from the age of 5 with 25 other kids his age.

[Crissy]

not being in a class room from the age of 5 with 25 other kids his age.

 

:iagree:

A classroom would have been the worst thing in the world for this kid during those early years.

[Ibbygirl]

 

d) a reporter, writer, or other researcher looking for good quotes

 

I wonder if he works for the Wall Street Journal? ;)

[Farrar]

I was also wondering if this was some sort of reporter set up. Of course, if he wanted genuine and honest responses, he shouldn't have been so snarky and provocative in his posts. If someone asks a real question, I'll give a real answer. If someone just says, "Clearly you have a problem," then expect me to bite my thumb at him.

[WiseOwlKnits]

You mean it's wrong to keep them locked in the house, never seeing another soul? :confused:

 

Sigh. Seriously though, there are homeschoolers with socialization problems, just like their are public schoolers with socialization problems. There are painfully shy homeschoolers and there are social butterfly homeschoolers (my daughter is one of these). But there are also painfully shy public schoolers (I was one) and social butterfly homeschoolers. No matter how you choose to educate your child, you can still end up with a child who has "problems."

 

I always have to laugh when people I don't know well ask if my kids have opportunities for socialization because everyone who does know us says our kids have more socialization opportunities than your average public schooler because we do do so many things... Here's an average week at our house:

 

Mondays - Girl Scouts (not a hs troop either) and homeschool playdate

Tuesdays - swim class

Wednesdays - dance class, dinner date with ps friends

Thursdays - swim class

Saturdays - team sport (varies based on season - right now it's basketball)

Sundays - church choir, piano and voice lessons

 

This is only the stuff we do every week too. There's a lot of things we do once or twice a month that I'm not bothering to list...and things that happen a couple of times a week (like random play dates and park days) that I'm not listing either. I consider us very fortunate that we are able to give our kids exposure to so many different things BECAUSE we homeschool. We wouldn't be able to have this schedule if we were in public school because of the time that school and homework (even at 1st grade) would take up.

 

And, to copy another poster, I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

[Ibbygirl]

 

And, to copy another poster, I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

 

:iagree::iagree: Me too, although I'm not very quotable anyway. :D :tongue_smilie:

[sassenach]

5, 3, and 6 mos. My 5-year-old is in kindergarten in a private Christian school.

 

 

 

I definitely think that social exposure helps. There are studies linking the amount of verbal input children get to their intelligence. I cannot help but assume that much the same situation obtains for developing social skills. Of course, we could argue all day about what level of "filtering" is helpful for social development, and at what ages. But to me, to say that my son will learn whatever social skills he needs in the home environment, is to surrender him to whatever innate social capacity has has (not much).

 

 

 

This is what makes it hard to tell why these kids are weird. Homeschooling is much more mainstream than it was when I was growing up (I'm 28). I'm sure in the past it was much more the domain of... extreme... personalities -- not entirely, but in large part. So are today's weird homeschooled adults socially awkward because they're homeschooled, or because they have socially awkward parents?

 

 

 

I don't get invited to many parties, so it's hard to comment.

 

My concern is sincere, since I don't know what our schooling options will be in the next several years. Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Frankly, this is such an elephant-in-the-room issue I don't know whether anything would be gained by using excessive tact in raising the subject. Is there a polite way to ask, "Do you think you're screwing up your kids?"? Well, perhaps. There's probably merit in stirring the hive enough to get past what seem to be the typical (throwaway) answers: "I don't want my kid socialized into sin" and "He socializes just fine with adults" and the like.

 

Adam

 

OK, I see what you are saying. The problem with the question, like all questions about homeschooling, is there isn't one answer. Homeschoolers are going to be different. How different and whether that's good different or bad different is going to depend on a ton of factors.

 

If you are investigating homeschooling, you will either come to the point where the potential good outweighs your fears, or it doesn't. You are not going to receive a signed and sealed guarantee that your kid will not be awkward. Of course, I remember plenty of those kids from my public school days, so I don't think that there is any formula that is going to fix this for you.

 

Now, if you want some practical advice, here's what we've done. We are involved in co-op classes, we do sports, and we don't seal ourselves off from scary public schoolers. I think you will find that the majority of hsers have big lives outside their homes. A few don't, and yes, they are often a little different (not that they seem to mind).

 

Let me repeat: IF YOU HOMESCHOOL, YOUR KIDS WILL BE DIFFERENT. That's why we homeschool.

 

ETA: And, if you are an author looking for quotes, you may only use my remarks in their entirety and with my express permission.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Shannon831
Good Call Renee

[ScoutTN]

In fact, my sharp snarky response to you would be simply this:

Yes, we all know there's a socialization problem. That's WHY we homeschool.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

If you are not a troll, which I doubt, please do your homework and be more polite and respectful.

 

A good read on the topic of socialization and home education is Rachel Gathercole's The Well-Adjusted Child.

[OnTheBrink]

And, to copy another poster, I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

 

I don't either. Nothing I say on this forum may be quoted outside of WTM without my express written permission.

[mommaduck]

I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

Edited February 28, 2011 by mommaduck

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

And, to copy another poster, I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

 

Me three! And I bet the count will rise!

[m0mmaBuck]

I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

[Dobela]

I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

 

Neither do I.

[LittleIzumi]

My snark is free for the taking :tongue_smilie:, for a dad or a student or whatever. I've got plenty here if anyone else needs some :lol:.

[Old Dominion Heather]

My kids only do two things in robot:

 

1.

2.

<---there is a bad work in the song in this link

 

Several people expressed that frustration, but the thread was actually deleted and everyone chastised.

 

Binary SOLO! Mrs. Mungo, I do love you so!

[tristangrace]

OK, Adam, I can't resist prefacing my response with these critiques. Feel free to skip to the bottom if you're tired of being corrected.:

 

I think we all know . . .

 

Really? No matter how the rest of the sentence read, this type of generalization would be a hard sell.

 

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought "the elephant in the room" is something nobody wants to talk about . . . and socialization in the homeschooling context is talked about ad nauseum, yes?

 

On to the substance . . .

 

Your kid seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too young for you to be this concerned about stuff like rambling and straying off topic. If it is truly alarming, having him spend eight hours a day, five days a week in a large classroom setting will probably "cure" him. Though it's he may not actually learn to select and offer more carefully edited comments--he may just shut down. If you're looking for a more moderate solution, surely you could homeschool AND provide classroom interaction for him on occasion. If you are observing the classroom interactions, you can then offer him some coaching. That's the sort of thing I do. I have one kid (of three) who has a hard time speaking up with strangers. But I'm afraid I still can't sign off on the "we all know" generalization . . . :)

[goldberry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoSRfu5z_4

 

Hi Adam,

 

This video by a homeschooled kid is a good answer in a funny way.

 

She makes the point that the small percentage of homeschooled kids that DON'T have good social skills, give the rest a bad rep. And why?

 

Because the rest you don't even know are homeschooled. They just blend in with everybody else.

[Scarlett]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoSRfu5z_4

 

Hi Adam,

 

This video by a homeschooled kid is a good answer in a funny way.

 

She makes the point that the small percentage of homeschooled kids that DON'T have good social skills, give the rest a bad rep. And why?

 

Because the rest you don't even know are homeschooled. They just blend in with everybody else.

 

Ok....that was just hilarious. Thank you.

[lmrich]

Poor Adam - I think we scared him away. I hope the best for your kids. Please love them and accept for whomever they may become. If they grow up to weird - love them. If they grow up to be class president - love them.

 

Kids are kids. They are unique and wonderful and different. Would you really want to have your kids change just to fit in?

 

My son has a friend that he calls a chameleon - he can change to fit any situation. He is a fraud. Nice kid - smart kid - likable kid, but do you think he knows who he is. The kid has social skills like you can't believe - everybody loves him; I just wonder if he loves himself. He seems so hard to please everybody else.

 

So please think about what you want for your kids. Popularity is fleeting. Being polite and well educated is timeless.

[jewellsmommy]

Well, this is anecdotal but my experience none the less. Dd has been hs from the beginning. She talks a lot, but allows others to participate in the conversation too :001_smile:. She speaks with adults and kids just fine, a regular social butterfly. She observes all of the unwritten social laws including standing at a comfortable distance (not in your "bubble"), makes eye contact, stays on track in a conversation, etc.

 

However, we just acquired a new son in Nov. He has been public schooled. He also has ADHD and other issues. After a few weeks, we embarked on a crusade to re-educate this child in social graces. He was so used to being put down and abused by other kids :crying:. I had a hard time getting him out of the car at his first co-op day. He wanted nothing to do with other kids, at first. He had already condemned them in his mind as mean and hateful and did not want to meet any of them! The first time we took him to the grocery store, dh was holding open the door for a slightly older woman when ds decided to squeeze between dh and said door in order to quickly dart in front of the woman so that he wouldn't have to wait behind her :mad:. That was improper social behavior (for those on the boards who were hs themselves and don't know no better :tongue_smilie:).

 

My point is that good, patient parenting is more important then their educational setting. Even then, not all children will be social butterflies. Just teach and mold what God gave ya and hopefully they won't mow down old ladies at the grocery store. :001_huh:

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps: my definition of socialization extends to cover more then how well or willing kids talk to people. I consider it to be all behaviors that demonstrate interaction with the public as a whole and comfort when in a one on one situation.

Edited March 1, 2011 by jewellsmommy

[justamouse]

I do NOT give my permission to be quoted outside of WTM. If you desire to quote me, you must obtain my express written permission.

 

I just wanted to say it, too. :D

[nd293]

I think we all know there's a socialization problem.

 

It's not clear to me to which socialization problem you refer. I think many of us homeschool because of the very severe socialization problem we see inherent in institutionalised education: exactly whose "norms, cultures and idealogies" do we wish our children to inherit? In this sense, I see absolutely no socialization problem with homeschooling. I know exactly which norms and idealogies my children are inheriting, when and in which order, and I am perfectly happy with that.

 

If you are talking about socialising, as in "do homeschooled children have enough access to social activities" (and this is not the same thing as "socialization") then I think that we have an issue which needs to be addressed individually by each homeschooling family. Whether it's a problem depends on where the family lives, the nature of the child, the nature of the parent, other ties to the community and the size of the family. Homeschooling as a newly arrived, introverted, atheist expat with an extroverted only child, in a country where there were 6 homeschooling families presented a problem for us in terms of social interaction. I found it insurmountable, so dd went to school. For an extrovert parent with a large family of closely spaced children with strong church ties this same situation might have posed no problems whatsoever.

 

Assuming you are planning on homeschooling, and are asking why TWTM doesn't really address the issue, then I think it is because of the diversity of responses available to each family, and the level of need for social interaction in each family. For one child, one close friend might be all that is needed, while another might feel starved of social contact when provided with many activities. Balancing such needs within one family can be complex, certainly, and I find it to be a greater challenge than the academics of homeschooling, but it's not something I expect SWB to be able to advise me on.

 

Nikki

[lovemyboys]

I guess I'm a cynic this week because the OPs 2 posts lead me to believe one of the following:

 

a) a troll

 

b) an education department student trying to learn about homeschoolers

 

c) a psyc department student doing the same

 

d) a reporter, writer, or other researcher looking for good quotes

 

e) a father or family member who's relative wants to homeschool and they are arriving with their preconceptions about homeschooling fully packed and looking for excuses not to agree to homeschooling

 

f) an unsocialized person who rather than asking the question they want answered is taking the antisocial approach and provoking to see what response is generated

 

g) someone who wants a platform created on which they may expound on their anit-homeschool rhetoric or just wants to laugh at the furor they create--no wait--that puts us back to option A doesn't it?

 

As for the rest-I'll agree with pqr, Mrs. M and the others who have posted about there being no demonstrable link between unsocialized behavior and homeschooling.

 

Hmmmm. :glare:

 

:lol: Sure sounds like some kind of "project" going on for this OP....

[lovemyboys]

I don't either. Nothing I say on this forum may be quoted outside of WTM without my express written permission.

 

Nothing I say on this forum may be quoted outside of WTM without my express written permission.

[RanchGirl]

 

friends, don't feed the troll.

[CalicoKat]

Gosh, there surely is! I took my 13 year old dd to the planetarium in Chicago last week. We went on "discount" day, which translates into "day of many school groups." The groups of school children were loud, unruly, running amok, with chaperones who yelled, snapped fingers and pointed and basically made spectacles of themselves. These kids had no idea that they should control themselves, speak in a regular "inside voice", move out of the way of other people who need to get by them, or say, "Excuse me" when they needed to get past someone.

 

Definitely a socialization problem there.

 

Amen. :iagree:

[Guest adamb924]

Repeated thanks to those who have shared about their lives and how they raise their individual children. I've read your responses carefully and benefited from them. It's good to know that there are normal and conscientious people doing this. I especially liked this pragmatic comment, "So my philosophy going forward on this is to take it one year at a time, and if the kids seem to be turning into freaks, well, then we can reevaluate."

 

 

I'm neither a troll, nor a reporter seeking to trick homeschooling mothers into saying embarrassing things, nor a psych student, nor a person from your school board. The well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that when I asked a sincere (if blunt) question about socialization, half of the respondents concluded that I was a malicious agent on some covert quest to attack their way of life.

 

 

Adam

[bairnmama]

 

 

I'm neither a troll, nor a reporter seeking to trick homeschooling mothers into saying embarrassing things, nor a psych student, nor a person from your school board. The well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that when I asked a sincere (if blunt) question about socialization, half of the respondents concluded that I was a malicious agent on some covert quest to attack their way of life.

 

 

Adam

 

I finally made it to the end of this thread and I just have to say.... I don't find it ironic at all having been reading this forum for quite a few years (my post count isn't that high because I'm one of those introverted public-schooled people that would rather read and listen than speak). There have been several posters who intended exactly that and went on to quote-mine for their blogs/columns/whatever on virtually any hot and oft-debated topic. Your behavior just happened to fit the oft-observed pattern of previous trolls.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you found some useful information. :)

[Lolly]

Despite the trollish wording of your question, I am going to take you as being someone who is truly looking for information. I have 4 dc. All are homeschooled. I can say with some confidence that they all have the same personalities and quirks that they would have if they were in ps.

 

One dc tends to be picked on. Being in school wouldn't change that. Dc wouldn't "learn" to be more normal. Dc would just have an extremely low self-esteem and probably be beaten up. This dc is quite physically large not to mention strong, the possibility of it turning this dc into a real bully/behavior problem would be quite possible.

 

I have another dc who is more than a bit shy. Being that way myself, I can assure you that ps does not help this trait at all. In fact, being homeschooled seems to have had a much more positive role than ps did for me. I highly recommend hsing an introverted child. It gives them the space and time to develop their personalities and self confidence in a manner that is much more appropriate to their personalities. Her current swim coach does seem to think she needs to learn to fit into her current group a little better. Problem is that those kids are, ummm, I guess very normal teens. You should see the pictures they have on Facebook. Group, ummm, activities generally involve little to no clothing and rubbing various body parts together. Perhaps they are cold due to the lack of clothing and want to create friction to get warm...:001_huh: They also tend to be very snobbish and rude. I do not exactly WANT my kid to be involved with them. There are plenty of other kids in other groups who are very nice and a less...active;). She simply chooses to do her practice with her group and associate with the nicer kids instead. Coach wants her to interact with HER group. This won't be a problem long as he is looking at her friends as the next potential move-ups. (In fact, a few had been in her current group before she was moved up and had changed groups because these kids were so snotty, mean, and unaccepting of those not willing to participate in their...activities.) {This is an sports club. She is at the elite level.} I am very proud of her for standing her ground and not giving in to peer pressure in order to fit in while not allowing them to run her out of the group she needs to be training in.

 

Dc3 is my social butterfly. She loves everyone and everyone loves her. The only problem I have had with her is that she wants to be out and about with friends all the time. I have just made sure that she has plenty of opportunities for interaction. She likes to have hundreds of friends. Thing with her is that she has severe ld's, though no one really knows it. If she were in ps, this would very likely have pulled her down. I am so glad that she has been able to flourish socially without the stigma of being "dumb". Instead, everyone looks up to her.

 

Dc4 has actually been a bit of a problem. Friends seem to stalk her. Her friends' parents even stalk her. (We have had serious problems. One mom even got ahold of dh's work cell number and called us out on the lake trying to get dc4 to come visit them. again. I have no idea how she got that number!!! I was ignoring the calls to our home phone from them. I had ignored the letters they had mailed. I was trying my best to break contact because this ps kid and her family were getting a little scary with their intense seeking of my child.)They all, not just the one family, seem to want her to live with them. I don't blame them. She is a wonderful person who is helpful and considerate. She tends to only want to have a handful of close friends instead of a wealth of acquaintances. Seems to work well for her. She would be no different if in ps.

 

If you were to meet any one of my dc, you would not have a clue that they were homeschooled (unless you met us out during school hours;)) In fact, I would guess that you wouldn't be able to pick homeschooled kids out of a line up. Kids are kids. They really, truly are. Socialization problems occur in all places. Public schooled have them. Homeschooled have them. Private schooled have them. At times socializing is difficult. It is very time consuming. All the activities seem to want to do something all the time. Plus, I will admit that in groups that are not specifically homeschooled kids, the go to school together groups are a bit hard to break into sometimes. These kids do share a lot of time together. They suffer together. They celebrate together. They have a lot in common just due to the fact that they are together so much. They are not always accepting of an outsider. it is kind of like trying to move into a small town. Fortunately, these days there tend to be enough homeschooled kids to make their own clicks within the groups.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Lolly

[keptwoman]

You may not be a troll Adam, but for someone who claims to be concerned about socialisation, i.e the correct way to behave with other people, you sure are behaving rather rudely and most troll like. Every one of your posts has included some wee dig at the members of this board. I hope that I am "socialising" my children to behave better than that.

 

We could all talk to you about our perfectly normal children until the cows come home, but we are just voices on a board who can talk up our kids to our hearts content. If you really think we prevent our children interacting with others until they hit college, well I really don't know what to say to such a warped perception.

I think the only way for you to answer the question to your satisfaction is to get out in the world and meet some homeschooled children, you will have to deliberately go about finding out who they are and seek them out, because in a mixed crowd they look perfectly "normal" and absolutely socialised.

Edited March 1, 2011 by keptwoman

[missesd]

The well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that when I asked a sincere (if blunt) question about socialization, half of the respondents concluded that I was a malicious agent on some covert quest to attack their way of life.

 

Your motives were suspect. None of us know you from Adam- pardon the pun. But you come on here, with no conversational backgrounds with any of us, yet expect us to answer your very loaded question with complete tact and grace. We don't know if you are genuine or sincere, and yet you are asking about our way of life, our children, and charging that many homeschooled children are basically uncivilized. How would YOU react?? I, personally, never came right out and said anything, but I did cover my bases. However, I did find you quite rude and uncouth. In any event, I hope you found whatever it is you came looking for.

[Hedgehog]

Every one of your posts has included some wee dig at the members of this board. I hope that I am "socialising" my children to behave better than that.....

I think the only way for you to answer the question to your satisfaction is to get out in the world and meet some homeschooled children, you will have to deliberately go about finding out who they are and seek them out, because in a mixed crowd they look perfectly "normal" and absolutely socialised.

 

:iagree:

 

Adam, there are some amazing people on this board who give freely of their time, knowledge and experience. I would advise you to truly ask, rather than assume, in order to benefit fully from the wisdom available here.

[Ibbygirl]

The well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that when I asked a sincere (if blunt) question about socialization, half of the respondents concluded that I was a malicious agent on some covert quest to attack their way of life.

 

 

Adam

 

Actually, I think "the well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that" for someone who seems so concerned about the socialization of their children you have shown yourself to be very rude here. Perhaps that is why you are so concerned?? I just cannot fathom that you actually speak to people like this in your real life. Or do you just think that because we're just a bunch of mothers and home schoolers that we aren't deserving of respect?

 

I can't help but get the feeling that you are here just sporting with us. I truly just cannot imagine someone coming to a community and from the start instead of actually observing, studying and learning BEFORE respectfully requesting information FROM them, instead comes in with both barrels cocked and loaded with pride and ignorance (funny how they are always found together) and start blasting away at the community with your rudeness and faulty generalizations and then act all shocked and amazed that your motives are being questioned. Are you serious?

[Impish]

As far as socialization goes, I've yet to hear of a homeschooled child waltzing into school with a gun.

 

The socialization at school is definitely part of why we home educate. The bullying, my dd being threatened to have her throat slit...yeah, enough was enough.

 

And as others have mentioned, nobody may copy, publish, or in anyway use any of my writing without express permission from me.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Impish

[pdalley]

Repeated thanks to those who have shared about their lives and how they raise their individual children. I've read your responses carefully and benefited from them. It's good to know that there are normal and conscientious people doing this. I especially liked this pragmatic comment, "So my philosophy going forward on this is to take it one year at a time, and if the kids seem to be turning into freaks, well, then we can reevaluate."

 

 

I'm neither a troll, nor a reporter seeking to trick homeschooling mothers into saying embarrassing things, nor a psych student, nor a person from your school board. The well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that when I asked a sincere (if blunt) question about socialization, half of the respondents concluded that I was a malicious agent on some covert quest to attack their way of life.

 

 

Adam

 

 

You seem to be obsessed with 'freaks', yet you refuse to acknowledge that ANY educational experience can produce them. Most 'freaks' go on to be productive members of society. I doubt Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozinak, or Mark Zuckerberg were called 'well-adjusted' by your definition even though you have not provided a single example of what you consider adequate socialization.

 

Albert Einstein was definitely considered a 'freak'. So was Temple Grandin.

 

And I hate to break it to you? Normal is a setting on the dishwasher. No one is really normal. If they were they'd be completely boring.

 

My kids would be - and were - 'freaks' in any educational setting. There are a huge number in all types of educational settings just like them. It has NOTHING to do with homeschooling and everything to do with some strange idea society has that 'socialization' is the most important skill a person can have. My kids and myself are wired - neurologically - differently from the rest of society.

[lionfamily1999]

As far as socialization goes, I've yet to hear of a homeschooled child waltzing into school with a gun.

 

The socialization at school is definitely part of why we home educate. The bullying, my dd being threatened to have her throat slit...yeah, enough was enough.

 

And as others have mentioned, nobody may copy, publish, or in anyway use any of my writing without express permission from me.

 

:lol: You forget Imp, some hs parents include firearm safety in their curriculum. They may very well waltz into school with a secured gun :lol:

 

My middle ds started off shy and was worse after four years in ps. My oldest has always been easy to get along with, but the socialization in ms gave her stomach issues. I'm not going to donate my youngest to the local socialization experiment.

Hello,

 

I'm looking for people's thoughts on socialization. As much as I appreciated the academic content in TWTM, I would summarize the chapter on socialization as: there is no socialization problem.

 

I think we all know there's a socialization problem.

 

So, please offer any thoughts you may have. Especially if you think your kids are well adjusted, and especially if you think you did something that helped that process.

 

Thanks,

Adam

Adam, I think you will find many answers

. How hs dc are socialized. Why hs parents may find your assumptions rude, loaded, or at best the continued beating of a dead horse. Try to make it through the video. There are plenty of examples of socialization for hsers, as well as the answers that those examples are very often met with. If it was already posted, my apologies.

[Jumping In Puddles]

Is that statement an example of good socializeation? If so, then you are correct! My children have a socialization problem. They are not being taught to use presumptive and condescending statements in their conversation with others.

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Actually, I think "the well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that" for someone who seems so concerned about the socialization of their children you have shown yourself to be very rude here. Perhaps that is why you are so concerned?? I just cannot fathom that you actually speak to people like this in your real life. Or do you just think that because we're just a bunch of mothers and home schoolers that we aren't deserving of respect?

 

 

:iagree:

 

Adam, if you wanted to be blunt and ask a sincere question, your OP could have simply stated that you think there is a socialization problem and how those on this board have or have not overcome that.

 

Even if you won't homeschool, I hope you found some things from TWTM helpful in educating your children.

 

 

Genuinely, I don't want my kids learning to interact with other people starting in college, and I don't want them to be attached to our nuclear family beyond what is healthy for them. (The latter issue is what I have seen up-close, and it strikes terror into my heart to imagine my sons not being able to function outside of our home.)

 

Adam

 

If you think your sons won't be able to function outside of your home because you decide to homeschool them, then you are truly missing the point. Imagine your wife tells you she wants to homeschool your children and you decide to start right away. When your ds is done with his kindergarten material (reading, writing, math, read alouds etc) will you keep him in the house, never to interact with others again? :001_huh:

 

More likely, he would join scouts, a soccer team or take karate. If he is a typical homeschooler, he will also join a homeschool group or co-op. Science museums, nature centers and historical sites often offer classes for homeschoolers. Today and tomorrow from 10-2, my kids are at a chemistry class where they will interact with other kids and function in a classroom setting. There are many more opportunities like this and my kids are already able to function outside the home.

 

If you decide to homeschool him but don't give him any opportunities outside of your home, then you will NOT be a typical homeschooler and will, IMO, do a disservice to your son.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Jumping In Puddles

[Lolly]

Actually, I think "the well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that" for someone who seems so concerned about the socialization of their children you have shown yourself to be very rude here. Perhaps that is why you are so concerned?? I just cannot fathom that you actually speak to people like this in your real life. Or do you just think that because we're just a bunch of mothers and home schoolers that we aren't deserving of respect?

 

I can't help but get the feeling that you are here just sporting with us. I truly just cannot imagine someone coming to a community and from the start instead of actually observing, studying and learning BEFORE respectfully requesting information FROM them, instead comes in with both barrels cocked and loaded with pride and ignorance (funny how they are always found together) and start blasting away at the community with your rudeness and faulty generalizations and then act all shocked and amazed that your motives are being questioned. Are you serious?

 

Maybe he was homeschooled and thinks it is the root of all his problems?:D

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I have three sons, who have only been homeschooled. I can't say that I have any particular socialization tricks. They have been involved in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with sports (martial arts, rock climbing, soccer and swimming) and in church. One son was asked to join the Odyssey of the Mind team that his friends were one, even though every other member was a student at the local school.

When they started to study tae kwon do, the languages of instruction at the school were German and Korean. So they learned German and Korean (at least enough to train).

 

My children are third culture kids, having lived on three continents and having moved every couple of years. That could make them be isolated and restrained, but it has tended to make them willing to make new friends everywhere they go. (I once had a scouting mom complain that her son wasn't in the same group as his kindergarten friends. She asked, "What am I supposed to tell him? That he has to make all new friends?" I bit my tongue, because that is exactly what my sons do on a regular and continuing basis.)

 

What I have expected from them is that they will treat each other as well as friends, neighbors and kids on the playground with politeness and respect. That they will be friendly and deal with the situation at hand as it is rather than as they wish it were.

 

I guess that the proof is in the pudding. Last night we were visiting a boy scout troop to see if the kids wanted to join it (we've recently moved again). They walked in without me, found scouts to talk to, spent the meeting with a patrol and then met me in the lobby at the end, when I came out of the parents' meeting. They had no problem participating and evaluating the troop, even though they didn't know anyone there (most of the scouts were in cub scouts with other members or attend school with someone from the troop).

 

For that matter, my oldest son attended the Nippon Jamboree last summer. He was selected to be the member of his contingent to attend the reception for the opening ceremonies, which included an introduction to the Japanese Crown Prince. By all reports he did fine.

 

 

As far as the response that you got from board members considering if you were a troll or not, try considering your post and how it would sound if you phrased a similar question on a board for professional teachers (What about achievement? And we all know that there is an achievement problem.)

 

Not only has the board attracted trolls in the past, some with the most outlandish attacks on homeschooling, some with horrible stories played out for weeks to gain sympathy; but also many board members have answered these questions over and over again, posed by friends and family members. It honestly gets tedious.

 

Is there a socialization problem? Perhaps. But not in the sense that you probably meant. Young people are learning how to be future adults. This is a long process with many stumbles and dead ends and wrong turns. I think that there are few of us who have never been rude, cutting, embarrassed, shy, etc. It is part of the human condition and isn't dependent on the setting of ones math instruction.

[mommaduck]

I have three sons, who have only been homeschooled. I can't say that I have any particular socialization tricks. They have been involved in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, with sports (martial arts, rock climbing, soccer and swimming) and in church. One son was asked to join the Odyssey of the Mind team that his friends were one, even though every other member was a student at the local school.

When they started to study tae kwon do, the languages of instruction at the school were German and Korean. So they learned German and Korean (at least enough to train).

 

My children are third culture kids, having lived on three continents and having moved every couple of years. That could make them be isolated and restrained, but it has tended to make them willing to make new friends everywhere they go. (I once had a scouting mom complain that her son wasn't in the same group as his kindergarten friends. She asked, "What am I supposed to tell him? That he has to make all new friends?" I bit my tongue, because that is exactly what my sons do on a regular and continuing basis.)

 

What I have expected from them is that they will treat each other as well as friends, neighbors and kids on the playground with politeness and respect. That they will be friendly and deal with the situation at hand as it is rather than as they wish it were.

 

I guess that the proof is in the pudding. Last night we were visiting a boy scout troop to see if the kids wanted to join it (we've recently moved again). They walked in without me, found scouts to talk to, spent the meeting with a patrol and then met me in the lobby at the end, when I came out of the parents' meeting. They had no problem participating and evaluating the troop, even though they didn't know anyone there (most of the scouts were in cub scouts with other members or attend school with someone from the troop).

 

For that matter, my oldest son attended the Nippon Jamboree last summer. He was selected to be the member of his contingent to attend the reception for the opening ceremonies, which included an introduction to the Japanese Crown Prince. By all reports he did fine.

 

 

As far as the response that you got from board members considering if you were a troll or not, try considering your post and how it would sound if you phrased a similar question on a board for professional teachers (What about achievement? And we all know that there is an achievement problem.)

 

Not only has the board attracted trolls in the past, some with the most outlandish attacks on homeschooling, some with horrible stories played out for weeks to gain sympathy; but also many board members have answered these questions over and over again, posed by friends and family members. It honestly gets tedious.

 

Is there a socialization problem? Perhaps. But not in the sense that you probably meant. Young people are learning how to be future adults. This is a long process with many stumbles and dead ends and wrong turns. I think that there are few of us who have never been rude, cutting, embarrassed, shy, etc. It is part of the human condition and isn't dependent on the setting of ones math instruction.

 

BRAVO!

 

Homeschooling is more about "Educational choice and Educational flexibility", including socialization, than it is about keeping them home and at the kitchen table. We have more choices than just the school can give. Schools, public and private, may be options at some point or for some of our children. But we also have the options of double dipping at the community college or other colleges that offer courses to younger people. We have the option of joining co-ops, creating classes, offering private classes and tutoring to others, giving real life experience, volunteering, and joining the numerous "regular" activities available to those in brick and mortar schools (sports, clubs, etc).

[Crissy]

The well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that when I asked a sincere (if blunt) question about socialization, half of the respondents concluded that I was a malicious agent on some covert quest to attack their way of life.

 

 

Adam

 

:D

[OnTheBrink]

You may not be a troll Adam, but for someone who claims to be concerned about socialisation, i.e the correct way to behave with other people, you sure are behaving rather rudely and most troll like. Every one of your posts has included some wee dig at the members of this board. I hope that I am "socialising" my children to behave better than that.

 

 

 

Your motives were suspect. None of us know you from Adam- pardon the pun. But you come on here, with no conversational backgrounds with any of us, yet expect us to answer your very loaded question with complete tact and grace. We don't know if you are genuine or sincere, and yet you are asking about our way of life, our children, and charging that many homeschooled children are basically uncivilized. How would YOU react?? I, personally, never came right out and said anything, but I did cover my bases. However, I did find you quite rude and uncouth. In any event, I hope you found whatever it is you came looking for.

 

:iagree:

 

Adam, there are some amazing people on this board who give freely of their time, knowledge and experience. I would advise you to truly ask, rather than assume, in order to benefit fully from the wisdom available here.

 

Actually, I think "the well-adjusted members of the forum will appreciate the irony that" for someone who seems so concerned about the socialization of their children you have shown yourself to be very rude here. Perhaps that is why you are so concerned?? I just cannot fathom that you actually speak to people like this in your real life. Or do you just think that because we're just a bunch of mothers and home schoolers that we aren't deserving of respect?

 

I can't help but get the feeling that you are here just sporting with us. I truly just cannot imagine someone coming to a community and from the start instead of actually observing, studying and learning BEFORE respectfully requesting information FROM them, instead comes in with both barrels cocked and loaded with pride and ignorance (funny how they are always found together) and start blasting away at the community with your rudeness and faulty generalizations and then act all shocked and amazed that your motives are being questioned. Are you serious?

 

I agree with all the above. I've been homeschooling for 10 years and part of homeschool message boards for the same, and your approach, tone, and wording isn't new or original--it's actually quite common for the trolls and pot-stirrers. You're judgmental, assuming, rude, disrespectful, and condescending and yet you expect us to grace you with kindness and information? Try giving some first. You know, that more flies with honey thing.