Relative speaking to someone about children being behind

[mom31257]

I have a friend who would like to get some advice from me, so I'd like to get some from here. This friend has no children (because couple can't have children) but has nieces and nephews who are homeschooled. The kids are really, really behind. These kids do not seem to have learning disabilities, and my friend thinks it is because the parent is not diligent in having a structured learning environment. 

 

Should this person even bring up the issue and suffer in silence? I say suffer because this person loves their nieces and nephews and wants them to do well in life. If this person should bring up the subject, how is the best way to do it?  

 

I know this person feels very close to the sibling who is homeschooling, so I think that would help. 

 

Thanks for any advice I can pass along. It's really for a friend, not me in some secretive fashion!  

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

How old are the kids, how behind, and how much is your friend willing to help in terms of time and money.

 

I think that kids can learn in an unstructured environment. However does your friend knows what is her sibling's goal for homeschooling?

[Jean in Newcastle]

How does she know the kids are behind?  

How does she know the kids have no learning disabilities?  

How does she know what kind of a learning environment her sister provides?

 

Unless she has tested them academically and tested them for LDs and sat in on the learning environment over time, she does not have enough data to say a thing, in my opinion.  

 

Now if her sister asks for advice or even vents about these things being a problem, then she might have reason to respond with some advice.  

[Ellie]

I have a friend who would like to get some advice from me, so I'd like to get some from here. This friend has no children (because couple can't have children) but has nieces and nephews who are homeschooled. The kids are really, really behind. These kids do not seem to have learning disabilities, and my friend thinks it is because the parent is not diligent in having a structured learning environment. 

 

Should this person even bring up the issue and suffer in silence? I say suffer because this person loves their nieces and nephews and wants them to do well in life. If this person should bring up the subject, how is the best way to do it?  

 

I know this person feels very close to the sibling who is homeschooling, so I think that would help. 

 

Thanks for any advice I can pass along. It's really for a friend, not me in some secretive fashion!  

 

She should mind her own business.

 

I see no reason for her to "suffer."

 

She cannot possibly love those children more than their parents do, nor want them to do well in life more than their parents do.

 

I have no faith in people who say they know homeschooled children who are "behind." Behind whom? How old are the children? Have they always been homeschooled? What would she consider "a structured learning environment"?  How does she get to be the judge of that?

 

And would she have the same concerns if these children were in school? Because the number of children who have graduated from 12 years of public education functionally illiterate are legion. Many, many homeschoolers withdrew their children from school because they thought it was a good thing to do and discovered to their shock and dismay that in spite of good report cards their children were really, really behind. Would it occur to your friend to question how the children were doing academically if they were in school? 

[PeterPan]

Oh my, that would be like so NOT the right thing to be doing, in my book.  If she's close to the sibling, she could just make conversation (how's it going, feeling stressed, want to go out for coffee and a pedicure)...  But I SO would not just walk up to them and go wow, your kids write horribly, they can't do math in the store, and you're really a flop as a homeschooler, kwim?  And there's just no way around it coming across like that, no matter how polite she thinks she's being.  

 

1. Do they comply with the homeschooling laws in your state?

2. Is the mom worried and bringing it up herself as wanting to talk about it?  

 

If yes to 1 and no 2, then it's over, done, drop it, WALK AWAY.  It's so easy to get really busy parenting other people's kids.  Go volunteer somewhere, foster parent, find a charity, somewhere to put that energy. 

 

Btw, one of my kids actually has a litany of problems.  I'm well aware of them and don't welcome any relative's opinion on how I am or am not doing.  You could say I'm downright defensive and touchy about it.  ;)  If the kids *do* have problems and the mom isn't aware of them, that is SO touchy.  You can mention something precise you've seen, like wow Johnny's handwriting was crazy chicken scratch like our brother's!  That's ok, but then it's still back to dropping it.  If there are disabilities, people have their own paths on how they get there.  Even sentiments like "behind" are really vague.  You could have differences in IQ or gifting/strengths.  Unless you have precise incidences, I would let it drop, and even those specific things I would bring up as a mention and still let it drop.  It's not going to go well, because it's a really touchy subject.  

[mom31257]

I will find out those kinds of details before giving any advice. My initial thoughts were that I wouldn't say anything. I also pointed out that many public school kids are "behind"as well.

 

I do believe that the mom of the kids admits to letting school slide fairly often, which worries my friend.

 

Our state has so much less accountibility than there used to be. We used to register with the local superintendent and turn in monthly attendence records. Now we register with the state and turn nothing in. You really only need records if you were to be investigated. It makes it very easy to not comply with the 180 4.5 hour days.

[Ellie]

I will find out those kinds of details before giving any advice. My initial thoughts were that I wouldn't say anything. I also pointed out that many public school kids are "behind"as well.

 

I do believe that the mom of the kids admits to letting school slide fairly often, which worries my friend.

 

Our state has so much less accountability than there used to be. We used to register with the local superintendent and turn in monthly attendence records. Now we register with the state and turn nothing in. You really only need records if you were to be investigated. It makes it very easy to not comply with the 180 4.5 hour days.

 

Regardless of what you find out, I would strongly recommend that your friend mind her own business. Really. Unless she actually lives with those people 24/7, she honestly does not know what's going on in their lives.

 

If she's very close, she could casually offer to help with something once in awhile, but that's it.

[SKL]

Childless people are wise to remember that they haven't been schooled in parenting yet.  I know, I was that childless aunt for many years.  (Though I would never say anything to a parent about her kids being behind, I thought it plenty.)

 

I would limit my involvement to the following types of things:

• Ask the mom if there is anything she would like help with.  Maybe she would appreciate auntie tutoring one kid while mom focuses on another.
• When visiting, bring a good book and read with/to the kids.  Or take the kids singly or in pairs to live theater, or some other enriching activity.
• At gift giving times, give stuff you think will be both fun and helpful.  Good books, learning toys (if the kids are young), even offering to pay tuition for classes/camps they might be interested in.  But make sure this is done without a judgmental tone.
• Share that she discovered one or more interesting-looking homeschooling resources, and provide the web addresses etc.
• Build trust by praising and encouraging for what the kids and mom do well.

[lea_lpz]

I have a friend who would like to get some advice from me, so I'd like to get some from here. This friend has no children (because couple can't have children) but has nieces and nephews who are homeschooled. The kids are really, really behind. These kids do not seem to have learning disabilities, and my friend thinks it is because the parent is not diligent in having a structured learning environment.

 

Should this person even bring up the issue and suffer in silence? I say suffer because this person loves their nieces and nephews and wants them to do well in life. If this person should bring up the subject, how is the best way to do it?

 

I know this person feels very close to the sibling who is homeschooling, so I think that would help.

 

Thanks for any advice I can pass along. It's really for a friend, not me in some secretive fashion!

Grain of salt- the concerned adult has no children. Is it possible her expectation of where they should be at is unrealistic? I have two sister in laws that have no kids. Often expectations of what a kid should no academically are wildly inappropriate. Mine certainly were when I had no children.

 

More details of the scenario would be helpful. Such as ages and examples of how they are behind.

 

Educational philosophy can also contradict societal norms. For example lots homeschoolers don't do formal academics until kids are 7 or so. So, if a six year old isn't reading they might not understand why.

[PeterPan]

And this aunt could get a real surprise if she did standardized testing and found the kids actually were performing at ability level.  That could happen.  

 

There are practical solutions.  She could report them to Child Services or whoever would investigate them.  I'm not saying she should, but if she ACTUALLY THINKS this relative is HARMING her children and negligent, she could or even outright should.  She could also contact her senator and state representatives and lobby for changes in the homeschooling laws in her state.  I agree, the laws in some states do make a bit more effort at actually making sure something is going on.  I know the laws in our state hold my feet to the fire.  

 

And, you know, maybe your friend is asking a basic question like how much *can* you slack off and still get good results?  And you can tell her the truth, that school has a ton of wasted time, that in reality you can compact most of school into 1-3 hours, that you can give a kid audiobooks and good videos for years and years and cover a lot of sins, that later on they'll be motivated and fill in the cracks, that even if they HAD tons of busywork and instruction they probably wouldn't retain a lot of it, that LOTS of people have lost years and light years with homeschooling (because of babies, illness, deaths, moving, whatever), and STILL their kids are fine.  You can point out that without standardized test scores (and IQ scores to compare them to), she has no way to quantify whether the dc are performing at ability level.  You can point out to her that even states that are more highly regulated, like ours, have generous cut-offs, like being about the 25th percentile for test scores or having a certified teacher say the student is performing at ability level.  You can point out to her that in some colleges in your area the stats on kids going in taking remedial material will be VERY high, and that this mom probably is only presenting one side of things, her bad days.  She's probably actually getting more done than you think, and when the kids are doing ANYTHING worthwhile they're probably also acquiring or practicing skills.  

 

A lot of time it pans out.  Hopefully it does for this family.  I have days like that, where it seems like we spin our wheels and get NOTHING (in a hyperbolic sense) done.  And yet to say nothing is getting done actually isn't true.  I think if she goes in criticizing, she'll shut down the conversation and make it so the mom can't be real.  If any time this relative admits she has bad days it turns into GOTCHA, then how is she supposed to be real and talk about it?  The only answer in situations like that is CAN I HELP?  If she replies with that, then it gives the mom the chance to say yeah if I had an extra $300 I'd put him in an online class to get it done.  Then the relative can put up or shut up.  But right now, all we have is homeschooling mom opens up and sister uses it as ammo to criticize.  

[Farrar]

There are some situations in which I think people shouldn't mind their own business. Stories about kids who were neglected under the guise of homeschooling have really opened my eyes to the fact that it happens, whether we want to admit it or not.

 

That said, without a boatload more information, this doesn't sound like that at all. A childless adult who may or may not know anything about what "on level" even means is concerned about a vague sense of kids being "behind"? Um, no. I think if she has a good relationship with her sister then she can open up a dialogue where she is the receptive learner about what their homeschool is all about and what struggles they may or may not be having. But if she had that sort of relationship, presumably she would have done that already and not asked for advice about how to intervene from someone else. Unless there's a lot more to this she should mind her own business.

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Just one more MYOB vote here.

 

Anytime I'm in favor of doing something, the hs'ing parent herself has shared all the details and already knows there's a problem. This is not that.

 

Plus I'm with Ellie about the suffering. That's silly.

[Tsuga]

I agree that a childless adult not in the home is not well-placed to make this evaluation. There is a ton of variation in the early grades and non-parents, with the possible exception of SOME teachers, just don't get it.

 

I also think people are judgey about this. How many times have you read, "omg this high school kid forgot where BERLIN is!" Or "so and so is in third grade and didn't even know that dirt is not a vegetable!" But the reality is that learning is non-linear and kids often don't demonstrate what they know well in unfamiliar situations. Everyone seems behind or slow sometimes. my sister was shocked to find that the kids at her son's school, in first grade, did not know how lightning worked. I was sure mine didn't either, so I polled the neighborhood kids, all of whom have great math and reading skills, but who have not, I was sure, covered lightning. Sadly but surely, hypotheses about Thor (REALLY, KIDS?), Jesus (a homeschooled child) and the moon were tossed out. They just hadn't covered lightning. They knew other things.

 

I agree with SKL's suggestions. Unless the children ask for help or appear to be truant, she should mind her own business.

[DawnM]

I would have been very upset if anyone approached me about this.  My oldest didn't read until age 9.  He had severe LDs that we did not know about then. And people seemed upset that we weren't studying the exact same things as the PS.  We used the 4-5 year History cycle and relatives would comment on how we should teach state History, then US History, then World, etc......

 

I admit I told a few of them off in the nicest way possible, although I am sure they didn't think it was that nice.  But I didn't think it was nice of them to butt in to my business.     One of them has a son who not only dropped out of college and didn't tell them (costing them a small fortune) but also is now 26 and hasn't ever been able to hold down a job.  But dang it,  he was public schooled and did History in the "correct" order!

 

Seriously, don't get me started........I would have some very choice words for your "well meaning" friend.

[....]

I have a friend who would like to get some advice from me, so I'd like to get some from here. This friend has no children (because couple can't have children) but has nieces and nephews who are homeschooled. The kids are really, really behind. These kids do not seem to have learning disabilities, and my friend thinks it is because the parent is not diligent in having a structured learning environment. 

 

 

Wow, this is me...   :glare:   I have a close relative who is very anti-homeschooling and insists that my kids are behind/will have poor social skills/won't be able to cope with the real world.

 

1.  Your friend might not have a realistic picture of where the kids are academically.  My relative is convinced my kids are behind.  They're not.  I think relative just doesn't know what's developmentally appropriate and doesn't spend enough time with them anyway (they only see my kids about once a year).

 

2.  Diligence in a structured learning environment...  Unless your friend is with them all day, she wouldn't know what they're doing.  I tell people we're relaxed and casual about homeschooling...and we learn a lot through daily life.  But, if you look at my signature, that doesn't really look relaxed.  It looks downright frightening.  So, I think there's a reality versus the ideal going on here sometimes.  Also, not everyone thinks there needs to be constant structure for kids to learn.  

 

3.  Like Tsuga mentioned, some kids don't do well when quizzed or put in the spotlight, either.  We were shocked once to find out my daughter knew where Mesopotamia was...but didn't know where Washington DC was.  Um, yeah.  Darn its.   :ohmy:   Another of my daughters was telling a relative about Augustus Caesar and then he asked her, "What's 8x7?"  Which she couldn't answer, because - geez - who randomly asks you for multiplication facts in the middle of a conversation (this is actually a huge joke in our house now).  After my daughter failed to correctly answer the multiplication ambush, the relative started telling us how wonderful their other grandchild's private school was.  And HE knows his multiplication facts, because he goes to this wonderful private school.  Um, awkward!!!    :001_unsure:

 

Agreeing with the MYOB...

[....]

And this aunt could get a real surprise if she did standardized testing and found the kids actually were performing at ability level.  That could happen.    

 

I've seen this happen twice now.  

[mom31257]

I added the suffering in silence, just kind of tongue-in-cheek. This person didn't say that to me. 

 

This person loves their family and is concerned, not just being judgmental for no reason.  

 

The couple asked me about us having dinner together to discuss it further, so they are seeking counsel before doing anything. I think that shows wisdom, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I added the suffering in silence, just kind of tongue-in-cheek. This person didn't say that to me.

 

This person loves their family and is concerned, not just being judgmental for no reason.

 

The couple asked me about us having dinner together to discuss it further, so they are seeking counsel before doing anything. I think that shows wisdom, too.

I disagree. You have no authority to evaluate the family, and no right to encourage gossip and speculation...

 

I think I'd tell my friend that we would be delighted to have them to dinner but their relatives would not be the main dish, so to speak.

 

Just my two cents. :)

[Carrie12345]

Is it my aunt?

If so, please tell her we're just fine, tyvm.  :w00t:

[....]

Is it my aunt?

If so, please tell her we're just fine, tyvm.  :w00t:

 

:laugh:  LOL.  That's how I felt when I read the original post.

[mom31257]

After reading some of these posts, I'm glad I'm blessed with fairly non-interfering relatives!  

 

Just for curiosity's sake, what if this parent really is neglecting the children's education? Should a caring relative ever intervene or talk to a parent? 

 

Would you step in if the children's care was being neglected in any other way, food provided, medical care, etc? 

 

Is an education as important as their physical well being? 

 

 

[Starr]

I doubt saying something would go well. I think you got your answer by the responses you are getting.here ;)  But I do find it interesting that most everyone seems to think she can't tell if there is a problem.  It's possible she's around enough and mom talks about her life enough to realize there is a problem and be concerned. 

[73349]

I think it's a matter of degree. "Behind" can mean the six-year-old can't read or write, or it can mean the sixteen-year-old can't. The former is not an auntie's business, but the latter is, IMO.

 

I'll also agree with the others that she might be surprised what counts as behind. My DS presents as socially inept, stammers, can barely write a sentence, might need a minute to figure 14 + 8, and can't tie his own shoes. But he knocks the socks off standardized tests (percentiles in the upper 90s) and has hidden knowledge of grammar, astronomy, ancient history, cooking, and other topics a relative might not bring up in conversation.

[FO4UR]

I will find out those kinds of details before giving any advice. My initial thoughts were that I wouldn't say anything. I also pointed out that many public school kids are "behind"as well.

 

I do believe that the mom of the kids admits to letting school slide fairly often, which worries my friend.

 

Our state has so much less accountibility than there used to be. We used to register with the local superintendent and turn in monthly attendence records. Now we register with the state and turn nothing in. You really only need records if you were to be investigated. It makes it very easy to not comply with the 180 4.5 hour days.

 

 

She probably has to let school slide in order to get together with family, so that is what her family sees.  She probably doesn't talk about the days that go as planned.  It's likely a case of not seeing the whole picture, making assumptions about a family based on days that are out of the norm.  That is very unfair to the homeschooling family!!!

 

I agree with MYOB, with one exception.  Kindly advise this dear woman to not publicize things that could make her life a living nightmare.  I see CPS already mentioned in this thread.  Gah!  The kids are doing great!  Pass the bean dip...

 

 

 

 

 

After reading some of these posts, I'm glad I'm blessed with fairly non-interfering relatives!  

 

Just for curiosity's sake, what if this parent really is neglecting the children's education? Should a caring relative ever intervene or talk to a parent? 

 

Would you step in if the children's care was being neglected in any other way, food provided, medical care, etc? 

 

Is an education as important as their physical well being? 

 

I would not even jump to "what if" until you know something is amiss. 

 

Honestly, if my nieces and nephews were concerning me, I'd be seeing what help their parents need b/c that is completely out of character for any of them.  I would assume my sibling or BIL/SIL was ill or something.

 

 

IMHO, this honestly sounds like a case of HS family being targeted by a naysayer.

[rutheart]

My two cents: if the mother wants the best for her kids, she tries to do so, and therefore nothing should be said. If the parent could care less about the kids, there are usually other signs of neglect besides just educational (i.e. physical, medical, emotional).

 

If the aunt really wants to help, tell her to ask if there's any school supplies she could buy for the kids. Or just buy them really cool educational books for Christmas. Or offer to teach the kids a particular subject that the aunt has expertise in (i.e. art, science, etc). There are practical ways to help that don't involve insulting the mother.

 

Ruth

[Farrar]

After reading some of these posts, I'm glad I'm blessed with fairly non-interfering relatives!  

 

Just for curiosity's sake, what if this parent really is neglecting the children's education? Should a caring relative ever intervene or talk to a parent? 

 

Would you step in if the children's care was being neglected in any other way, food provided, medical care, etc? 

 

Is an education as important as their physical well being? 

 

Yes. In some situations. I do think educational neglect is serious and I do think it happens that kids who are reasonably well-fed and clothed and sheltered can have their educations neglected sometimes to the point that it is neglect. And if I had a family member who I was sure was not adequately feeding or clothing their kids, I wouldn't hesitate to do something.

 

I guess it's just a question of whether or not you can evaluate that. Random quizzing is a terrible way. Not being familiar with young kids is generally not going to tell you much. Having your own ideals and knowing nothing about the family's ideals is a terrible way to evaluate what's going on.

 

I do think there can be red flags. Older kids who themselves consistently complain that they don't know enough or don't have access to education. Older kids or teens who cannot read or do basic arithmetic. Older kids, especially teens, who are kept away from groups, books, or libraries. A parent who says they're not doing anything, especially for older kids. But those are just red flags... none of them are even condemning. An older kid who can't read may have a learning disability that you don't know about that makes reading or basic math very challenging. Or a kid might have an anxiety disorder that makes them believe they're far behind when they're not really. A parent saying she's not doing anything could mean this year or that she's not living up to her own high expectations. While I don't agree with some of their stances, I think the CRHE actually has some good information about this.

 

But even those sorts of red flags aren't present here unless there's more to this story. And this sister seems to be in a particularly poor position to evaluate these kids not having kids, being an educator or living with them.

[....]

But I do find it interesting that most everyone seems to think she can't tell if there is a problem.  

 

I think it's because a lot of homeschoolers have already dealt with the "concerned relative" thing.  

[maize]

I have an aunt who said "no nieces and nephews of mine will be homeschooled!" back when my mom was homeschooling us. My mom basically said "they're my children not yours" and went on doing her thing, which sure didn't look like consistent structured learning.

 

Same aunt is equally unhappy about me homeschooling, the whole concept apparently wigs her out. But, you know, she's still not the parent.

[FO4UR]

I have an aunt who said "no nieces and nephews of mine will be homeschooled!" back when my mom was homeschooling us. My mom basically said "they're my children not yours" and went on doing her thing, which sure didn't look like consistent structured learning.

 

Same aunt is equally unhappy about me homeschooling, the whole concept apparently wigs her out. But, you know, she's still not the parent.

 

 

And, at a certain point, it's mighty foolish to cry educational neglect when even the 2yo is chanting Latin declensions.

 

 

True educational neglect does happen, and it's a tragedy that needs to be stopped.  But, THIS does not even give a whiff of educational neglect, not one mention of anything the kids are actually behind with.  It's just gossip from someone who hates homeschooling at this point.

[Storygirl]

Educational neglect is a real thing that happens, and it's horrible. If the relative thinks that this is happening, she should get involved. I'm talking about extreme cases.

 

With that said, most of the time relatives who express concern are out of line. There just isn't a way to tell how a child is doing by simple observation or even comments by the parent. Educational professionals can't tell unless they do in-depth screening. Let's think for a minute about how the school approaches dealing with a child who seems behind. I'll use my own children as a little example.

 

My children entered school for the first time this year after years of homeschooling. Two of them have diagnosed learning disabilities. I gave the school piles of paperwork, including standardized tests with low scores. And guess what? The school still has to go through a lengthy and detailed evaluation process for determining if they need IEPs and what will be in the IEPs. From beginning to end, under federal guidelines, the schools take 120 days to create an IEP. 120 days of professional educators working with the children, making reports, and doing specific testing to determine their needs.

 

So yes, it's hard to determine if a child is working up to their ability or if they have learning challenges. A concerned relative just isn't in a position to be able to judge effectively.

 

Homeschooling is hard, and we sometimes want to vent or express our concerns to people who care about us. I just did this with my sister yesterday. She has never homeschooled. She has never been a parent of young children. She cares about me and my kids, but there are a lot of things that she will never understand.

 

If the relative wants to be supportive and helpful, instead of criticizing, she could offer to help. Give the homeschooling mom a day off. Or take each of the kids out for a day one-by-one. Offer to tutor in math if she is strong in math, or come over once a week to do science experiments or art projects, or baking. Support, don't criticize.

[SKL]

My kids appeared almost nonverbal to most of their relatives until they were school-aged.  Oh well.  It's hard to tell what is actually in someone else's kid's brain.

 

I also have one apparently bright kid who does have non-obvious learning issues.  That is another thing you don't know unless you are very close to the kid.  Even her teacher last year was saying things like "she's smart and she knows it and I know it."  In other words, show your stuff.  She softened a lot after I told her the list of problems my kid has been diagnosed with.  And while this kid is doing fine for her age, she doesn't go around talking about academic stuff.  She would rather talk about sports, romance, and hair styling.  She wants no books in her room, just a mirror!  I can't imagine a cousin having any idea of how she's doing academically, unless I were to tell them.

[Mabelen]

Most here are assuming that someone with no children has no way of knowing but they still might do know something is amiss.

 

I was that aunt and, unfortunately, time proved me right in so many ways. My nephew was in public school and I knew he was falling through the cracks. I love my sister so much, and I did try to help her see it and do something about it to no avail. My sister has a lot of regrets now that her son is 24.

[Arcadia]

And this sister seems to be in a particularly poor position to evaluate these kids not having kids, being an educator or living with them.

My mom's single and no kids sister was my free babysitter since I was born. This aunt lives with another maternal aunt who does have kids.

 

Without knowing anything in OP's case, I'm not assuming the "meddling" sister is anti-homeschooling.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

I do believe that the mom of the kids admits to letting school slide fairly often, which worries my friend.

 

 

This is the point where your friend needs to ask exactly what this means.  Does it mean that school is being done only once every couple of weeks?  Once a week?  4 x a week?  Does it mean that they just never get around to science but get everything else done?  Does it mean that the mom has scheduled 20 subjects (I've seen esp. newbies do something like this) and then only gets to the basics?  Are they in a rich learning environment but the mom doesn't always do formal lessons?  It doesn't have to be confrontational, but clarifying at the time. if the mom is bringing this up as a confessional type vent, then I think a relative can ask some gentle questions.  They may discover that more is being done than they thought.  (Like when someone complains of not being able to keep up with the mess in their house but it really isn't so bad.)  Or they may find that it truly is a case of educational neglect esp. if it goes on for long periods of time and is not simply a season due to short-term illness etc.  

 

Some people who are prone to educational neglect simply need to be encouraged to be more consistent in actually teaching the kids.  Is there some way that your friend could help out so that the mom is more free to sit down consistently with the kids?  (If it indeed is a problem.)  

[Saddlemomma]

I disagree. You have no authority to evaluate the family, and no right to encourage gossip and speculation...

 

I think I'd tell my friend that we would be delighted to have them to dinner but their relatives would not be the main dish, so to speak.

 

Just my two cents. :)

 

 

This....completely.  All the info the OP has is pure speculation - not even circumstantial evidence.  How could the OP even begin to offer advice or counsel when there is no concrete info available?  

 

The aunt may be sincerely concerned, but  her "idea" of education and how "behind" her niece/nephew are is totally based upon her concept of education - which is what?  She has no children.  What is her experience with PS vs. HS?  What style/level/measure of education is she referring to?  What is her experience in the education field?  How much quality time does she spend with her niece/nephew?  Do her speculations come from personal conversations with the kids?  If so, how often do we smack our heads with our hands when one of our kids say something that we know they've learned but in which the kid has a brain melt moment?

 

I'm sorry, but this scenario is one in which I would steer clear from since I don't personally know the family involved and that family has not personally asked for my input. In my mind this would be defined as gossip, regardless of any good intentions the aunt may portray.

[Tsuga]

After reading some of these posts, I'm glad I'm blessed with fairly non-interfering relatives!

 

Just for curiosity's sake, what if this parent really is neglecting the children's education? Should a caring relative ever intervene or talk to a parent?

 

Would you step in if the children's care was being neglected in any other way, food provided, medical care, etc?

 

Is an education as important as their physical well being?

Truancy as defined by state law. Behind more than two years and no evaluations. If I'd go to the school, I'd go to the parent.

 

My kids can appear really stupid at times. They are doing great overall. That's why I would not trust the evaluation of an adult who didn't do a proper evaluation.

 

If the mom expresses that she is not getting to schoolwork most days, then yes, I'd offer support to find a way to get it done. But most no -parents don't get what parent vents can mean. "I think I'm going to go crazy!" Does not mean, call cps, I'm hallucinating.

[OneStepAtATime]

OP, you are only hearing one side, correct?  Not sure how much your counsel will help.  Sounds more like gossip, to me.  At the same time, if you are able to get her to not go gung ho on the other mom for poor educational practices, that may be a good thing.  Perhaps you can share some wisdom and caution and give her some guidance, if you really feel you need to.

 

How old are the kids?  Why, specifically, does she think they are behind?  What empirical evidence does she have that there are genuine issues with educational neglect, not just a difference in lifestyle/academic choices?  Has she ever seen lessons taking place?  Has she ever done any research on the various ways to educate?  

 

If she is genuinely concerned, not anti-homeschooling in general, she could offer support without judgement or she could offer to get involved and see things from the inside, genuinely help while also seeing first hand whether there is an issue or not, instead of just make assumptions based on comments from the mom and her own limited observations.  Without real knowledge her assumptions are useless and probably inaccurate.  Every family is different.  She cannot know for certain, without boots on the ground, what is happening with these children regarding their education.  Heck, DH lives in this home and he has made some completely erroneous assumptions at times.

 

 

[Farrar]

My mom's single and no kids sister was my free babysitter since I was born. This aunt lives with another maternal aunt who does have kids.

 

Without knowing anything in OP's case, I'm not assuming the "meddling" sister is anti-homeschooling.

 

There's just not enough information to know for sure. And adults who are not parents can absolutely have lots of good experience with kids and know what's what. But on its face, childless auntie thinks the kids are "behind" and is consulting random other homeschoolers she knows seems like meddling and not like someone who knows what's what. I could be wrong. We don't even know if these kids are kindergarteners or teens much less if there's actually educational neglect going on.

 

OP, I think if I was in that conversation - and I can sort of imagine myself in that situation, honestly, with a friend who's saying that I'm a "good" homeschooler but she doesn't think this other person is - I think I'd listen but play devil's advocate and use that as an opportunity to explain things like unschooling, delayed schooling, better late than early, the copywork/oral narration over elementary school essays path to writing, the possibility of learning differences or anxiety issues, the way many homeschool mothers downplay the work they're doing or are hard on themselves when they're really doing plenty, etc. If after hearing about all that, your friend still thinks these kids are neglected educationally, then she should bring it up with her sister or possibly the authorities. I just have a feeling from what little has been said that this is a MYOB situation. And I'm someone who has been pretty vocal that homeschool educational neglect is a real problem.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'm really close to my sister and we both offer each other unsolicited advice on occasions, we're still friends but we have to be careful and thick skinned.

 

 

The only thing I would do, as the friend, is the next time my sibling mentioned "letting school slide fairly often", is offer to help.  I would be ready to suggest real physical possibilities, "I could come over 2X per week for a couple hours and do xyz", not just a general offer of "if you need some help"....

 

Or offer to help but make it about spending more time with the kids and her own interest in teaching them "things".  If she's not willing to dig in and help, if the mom even needs it, then she needs to not say anything.

[RootAnn]

I would sweetly inform her to mind her own business. If she's active in the kids' lives and actively cares about them, those kids will know they have an aunt & uncle to go to IF they ever want to express concern over their own learning. 

 

I know a couple of adults IRL who had no-schooling parents in the old homeschool days. When they got to a certain age, they realized they weren't getting what they wanted out of their education & found a way to get it with some help from other relatives. 

 

Unless the kids approach Aunt whomever, she should just love the kids & be with them.

 

[A cashier at Walmart last night asked my ds#1 what grade he was in. After a long pause, he hesitantly answered, "First?" Then, he came to ask me. We're not good with pop quizzes on the spot. My kids probably wouldn't be able to tell you their accurate age some of the time and might even mess up a "what's your name" question. ;-)]

[daijobu]

Grain of salt- the concerned adult has no children. Is it possible her expectation of where they should be at is unrealistic? I have two sister in laws that have no kids. Often expectations of what a kid should no academically are wildly inappropriate. Mine certainly were when I had no children.

 

 

 

I was an amazing parent...before I had kids.   :lol:

[Carrie12345]

After reading some of these posts, I'm glad I'm blessed with fairly non-interfering relatives!  

 

Just for curiosity's sake, what if this parent really is neglecting the children's education? Should a caring relative ever intervene or talk to a parent? 

 

Would you step in if the children's care was being neglected in any other way, food provided, medical care, etc? 

 

Is an education as important as their physical well being? 

 

Of course.  But you can't just go around basically accusing parents of neglect just in case.  You need something solid to go on.

[AimeeM]

After reading some of these posts, I'm glad I'm blessed with fairly non-interfering relatives!  

 

Just for curiosity's sake, what if this parent really is neglecting the children's education? Should a caring relative ever intervene or talk to a parent? 

 

Would you step in if the children's care was being neglected in any other way, food provided, medical care, etc? 

 

Is an education as important as their physical well being? 

Food, clothing, and medical isn't quite as subjective a need as education. Or, rather, I should say that the way to obtain it, give it, and what it should like isn't as relative.

Would I butt in if a parent were only feeing their child McDonald's every day? No, because she is feeding them and WHAT a child is fed IS relative. 

Would I butt in if I saw a child in public school failing and obviously behind? No, because the child is receiving an education, even if it isn't up to my standards or the way I would do it. 

It's easy to determine if a parent isn't giving a child food or medical care; it's just more tangible. Education is different, imo; there are a million-ten different ways to "give" an education, many less obvious than others.

[MerryAtHope]

I do believe that the mom of the kids admits to letting school slide fairly often, which worries my friend.

 

 

I agree with those who said that your role would be mainly to inform her about differing methods of homeschooling, differing styles, and how kids can be at wildly different places ability-wise. Obviously you won't know how the kids are doing, but you can let her know more about the process of homeschooling, and that may help.

 

I have sane, caring relatives for the most part, so I am speaking from that perspective and assuming that the aunt doesn't hate homeschooling, has a concern that's real in her mind, and really wants to know what to do that will help and not hurt. 

 

IF (big if) she decides to stick her nose in at all, I would wait for another comment like the one above, and then ask a few gentle questions. An example might be to say "We all have rough days. Do you feel like you're able to get the needed time in later?" Her first goal is to listen and pray, not jump to conclusions or give advice etc...

 

She *might* get away with asking, "Do you think your kids are struggling as a result?" as part of a conversation where the mom says she doesn't think she's doing enough--get mom to evaluate instead of sister who has no kids doing it, in other words.

 

Another possible way in could be to say, "You know, the other day you mentioned that sometimes it's hard to get school in for the kids. Were you just having a hard week, or is that a struggle off and on? I wondered if there is some way that I can be helpful and lighten your load."  

 

I really don't think she's in a position to give advice, but she may be in a position to give help. Does she have any skills, and time to tutor? Maybe if her sister comes back and says, "you know, I hate to admit it but it is a struggle off and on," she could at that point offer help--"Is there something I could do to help in that process? Would it help if I watched your little one X hours per week? Is there a subject you wish you could outsource that I could help with? Would a meal once a week help to lighten your load?" etc.... She should think through ahead of time what she might be willing to offer in the way of help. If she does offer, it could be on a trial basis--"what if I try watching your little one for the next 2 weeks and then you can let me know if that's helping and I can see if it works well with my schedule...we can evaluate from there." or, "what if I try doing a subject with your dc X times a week for a month, and we'll see how it goes...." (provide an out for both parties to re-evaluate and end on good terms if it doesn't work.)

 

One of the best things she could do might be to say, "Have you discussed this with other homeschoolers? Do they have advice to help you?" 

 

Encourage your friend to think of it like a medical issue. I'd never presume to give advice about xyz condition that I know nothing about--and offering that the person should try my favorite supplement/alternative medicine route to see if that helps, as if I do know something--really isn't helpful. (People do that a lot too though!). Questions like, "what does your doctor say?" and "Is there anything I can do to help? Do you need meals?" etc... can show care, concern, and they can encourage a person to take a step they've forgotten or felt too overwhelmed to take before. 

 

So, the mom talking to other homeschoolers can be a good first step. Maybe her struggles are normal, maybe not. Maybe her kids need evals, maybe not. Maybe mom just needs to occasionally vent and talk about how hard it is for her to feel stretched in every direction. I think a loving sister could be a great support in any of those situations, but she'll need to bide her time, be a trustworthy listening ear first, be willing to offer help but know that it may be rejected or unwanted (and not to be offended if that's the case). 

 

I would encourage her not to try to diagnose the problem for the mom, but to be a support and a willing/ready resource should the mom need more help and support. 

 

I've homeschooled through my husband's chronic illness, and having people who sometimes watched my kids or brought meals was wonderful. Had someone offered to do science experiments once a week for my kids, I might have taken them up on it! Support means different things to different people. From the mom's one comment, I'd at least wonder if she could use support in some fashion--and a loving sister might well be in a good position to lighten the burden in some way. 

[purpleowl]

I have sane, caring relatives for the most part, so I am speaking from that perspective and assuming that the aunt doesn't hate homeschooling, has a concern that's real in her mind, and really wants to know what to do that will help and not hurt.

 

IF (big if) she decides to stick her nose in at all, I would wait for another comment like the one above, and then ask a few gentle questions. An example might be to say "We all have rough days. Do you feel like you're able to get the needed time in later?" Her first goal is to listen and pray, not jump to conclusions or give advice etc...

 

She *might* get away with asking, "Do you think your kids are struggling as a result?" as part of a conversation where the mom says she doesn't think she's doing enough--get mom to evaluate instead of sister who has no kids doing it, in other words.

 

Another possible way in could be to say, "You know, the other day you mentioned that sometimes it's hard to get school in for the kids. Were you just having a hard week, or is that a struggle off and on? I wondered if there is some way that I can be helpful and lighten your load."

This.

 

I was reading all the responses saying no way, never, and I was thinking, if either of my sisters approached me with a concern about my kids, I would listen. One of my sisters has kids and the other doesn't. But because they are not meddlesome and interfering, but do care about my kids (and me!), I would find it worth hearing if they felt that they needed to bring something to my attention. I would also expect them to listen to me in return - whether my response was "actually, you've misunderstood the situation," or "that's something I'm already aware of and addressing," or "that's hard to hear, and I'll need to take some time to process it and get back to you." So I think the relationship she has with this sibling, and the way she brings it up, are key.

[Holly]

I'm a bit sensitive to this subject because we constantly had "concerned" people from our church that we attended when my oldest was 6.  They kept telling me how behind my 6yo was with reading.  Seriously?  At 6 years old I'm pretty sure it's impossible to be behind at reading or writing.  

 

Fortunately such "concerned citizens" are no longer in our lives, but unfortunately they can't see how well my DD is currently reading.  They probably think I'm still a horrible, misguided, negligent mother (who thinks she's too good for their schools).   :lol:  

 

I don't see any good coming from butting into another family's homeschool, no matter how good the intentions are.  

[Bluegoat]

Well, i wouldn't assume along with most others that the woman has no good reason to think there is a problem.  I don't think that we know based on what she's said.  If she is around the kids much, she may have good reasons, even if they are somewhat intangible, to see think there might be a problem.  i think educational neglect can happen in homeschooled families, I've seen it in families that were nice and liked their kids - usually because they believed some sort of version of "no matter what they do, even if it is watching tv all day, kids will learn on their own."

 

I don't think a stranger bring that stuff up would be at all appropriate, but a sister or close friend might be the best person to do it. 

 

It sounds to me that the sister in the OP is looking to find out more about homeschooling from someone whose opinion she values before she does anything, and that seems a sensible course to me, and not gossip at all.  I would just have a discussion about some of the different approaches and what kinds of things might be expected for that age group, and what might be real red flags.  She'll be in a better position then to decide if there is a something she should broach with her family.

[LMD]

I agree with the myob.

For an example: my mil, who I adore and is very close to the kids, just recently (6years in) realised that with Homeschooling, I could do devotionals with the kids during the day! All the years of talking about what the kids are doing didn't register... I could see someone like them being genuinely worried without accurately understanding.

It's just very difficult to even comprehend what is going on in another person's kid's brain!

I generally am one to respectfully speak up for a decent education- just had a conversation the other day that yes, your kid should be taught algebra before graduation, and outsource if you can't do it!

Eta, I would advise her to continue being a loving, encouraging aunt!

[Targhee]

If the mom recognizes that school is sliding then she may be stressed in some other aspect of life. The only thing I would say to her is "can I do your laundry today?" or some other loving thing.

[shinyhappypeople]

I have a friend who would like to get some advice from me, so I'd like to get some from here. This friend has no children (because couple can't have children) but has nieces and nephews who are homeschooled. The kids are really, really behind. These kids do not seem to have learning disabilities, and my friend thinks it is because the parent is not diligent in having a structured learning environment. 

 

 

OK, this REALLY hits a nerve.

 

There is NO WAY for aunt to have a CLUE if the kids have LDs unless she lives and works with them closely over a long period of time.  And some stuff is nearly INVISIBLE or just seems "quirky" or whatever. My older daughter seems completely normal (and she is in almost all ways), is responsible, fun, and gets along well with others... but has learning disabilities that an outsider would have no friggen clue about.  Honestly, if you saw some of her schoolwork and heard me vent about burn out and taking breaks, it all just looks like educational neglect, but it is SO not that.  She and I have worked HARD over the years.  Try, fail, try something else, small victory, keep trying, ugh - hit a wall, take a break, regroup, try again, slow progress, pause to regroup (again), get up and try one more time with a new approach.... rinse and repeat.

 

I know at least one of my young, childless relatives who is a new teacher thinks I'm doing a craptastic job based on where DD is at.  Whatever. I give her opinion the weight it deserves.