I'm teaching a college course this-- public school is woefully underpreparing our students

[catz]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

They complain that the stuff being taught in English was learned by them in 10th/11th grade. 

Didn't they just start college?  I would be more alarmed if they were totally out of their depth the first month of college in an Engl 101 kind of class.  Those classes are often designed as equilizers.  I think excellent teachers will give more prepared students way to show their stuff as a term goes on.  Not every teacher will do that, but I wouldn't find this problematic at all so early in the year.  And double that if this is a required freshman english gen ed.  My college student is just starting week 3.  

I am not surprised by the OP at all.  I had a conversation with a college professor acquaintence not that long ago who confirmed this.  But also that young people were strugging witth just day to day social stuff too - follow up, making phone calls, staying organized, connecting with peers, etc.  

My college sophomore has become the darling of every teacher she has.  Last time I was on campus, we were at a large social thing.  Some teacher tracked my kid from across the crowd and came up and introduced herself and went on and on about kid's work ethic and focus.  Which was nice I guess, but ugh.  She's made the deans list every quarter so far.  

[Lucy the Valiant]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

This is what baffles me. Never before in history have students had access to so many free or inexpensive educational resources! Need math remediation? There are oodles of math videos on YouTube. Don't do well with online texts? You can find dirt-cheap old editions of textbooks on ebay or AAmazon. Or, heaven forbid, go to the library!

Anyone could find resources to learn just about anything. But there's his mindset of learned helplessness...

Agree. And this begs the question . . . WHY don't the high schools have textbooks? The online ones + codes are very expensive, but the basic old Houghton / Dolciani textbooks (to use math as an example) used to be commonly owned by schools of all socio-economic levels. "We" / American taxpayers are paying higher and higher costs for lower and lower return on investment . . . and it's unnecessary. Very frustrating.

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, catz said:

Didn't they just start college?  I would be more alarmed if they were totally out of their depth the first month of college in an Engl 101 kind of class.  Those classes are often designed as equilizers.  I think excellent teachers will give more prepared students way to show their stuff as a term goes on.

It has to be mind-numbing to have professors cover subject-verb agreement and active vs passive voice. "Equalizer" just means marching to the beat of the slowest drummer. College should not be a continuation of highschool in this respect.  Let's waive freshman comp for anyone who can write a well-organized paragraph if they have to remediate junior high language mechanics. Just like we don't have calculus-ready students place in developmental algebra.

Edited Wednesday at 10:34 PM by regentrude

[busymama7]

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

It has to be mind-numbing to have professors cover subject-verb agreement and active vs passive voice. "Equalizer" just means marching to the beat of the slowest drummer. College should not be a continuation of highschool in this respect.  Let's waive freshman comp for anyone who can write a well-organized paragraph if they have to remediate junior high language mechanics. Just like we don't have calculus-ready students place in developmental algebra.

Brilliant. If only they would do this.  My son is dual enrolled and he did have a writing placement he had to take and would have had to take a lower/remedial class if he didn't pass.  

Edited Wednesday at 10:50 PM by busymama7

[SanDiegoMom]

My kids got out of English Comp with their AP English scores.  They will still have to take the more advanced writing course, but at least will be not subject to the freshman level.

Regarding pandemic gaps -- my daughter took chemistry her freshman year.  It was all snippets of reading, videos, online quizzes that could be cheated on, homework that involved googling answers, and tests that she bombed but had enough extra credit or (fake) homework credit to get a B both quarters.  She did herself no favors and after going back to school she found her work ethic, finishing her senior year with straight A's and a 5 in AP Bio.  However, she knew enough to sign up for the "Intro to Chem" class rather than the General Chem because of her poor performance as a pandemic 14 year old. 🙂 

Overall, (regarding another post that I can't remember what I am responding to actually, lol) I don't know that it is JUST kids wanting the hand holding, though.  I'm in a lot of Facebook groups that I joined to catch any information about school or neighborhood things I might miss.  I've been in one of the college parent's group since 2017 when my older daughter was accepted there (and now my son is going as a freshman).   The questions have gotten much more... stupid? Like, most of the questions either shouldn't be asked (their kid should be figuring it out themselves) or could EASILY be found by visiting any of the official college pages.  It's like people have gotten so used to getting instantaneous answers that they just throw their questions out into the void and assume someone is going to come back with an answer.  It's often frankly embarrassing, and I speak as a slightly more helicopter mom than I should be. 

So just all that to say, the learned helplessness isn't just the younger generation, it's affecting adults as well. 

ETA I rambled a bit and tried to make it clearer but probably failed

Edited Wednesday at 10:51 PM by SanDiegoMom

[Bootsie]

I was reading the essay a student applying for selective study abroad experience had written.  She was finishing her junior year of college.  The essay was so poorly written, I counted ONE complete sentence in a page-and-a-half of typewritten text.  This was a highly motivated student.  She had access to spell check and grammar check.  She could have someone proofread the essay before submitting it.  There were groupings of words like "Being that this is a wonderful experience and a great educational opportunity."  and "This trip are exciting honor and beneficial to learning."  I had her transcript as part of the application package; I looked to see what grades she made in Freshman Comp.  She had earned all of her English credit (with straight A's) in a special high school program in which high school students got their first two years of college credit taking "college" classes while at 16 and 17, instead of being in high school.  It is hard once a relatively bright person has leap frogged over the basics (and been told how advanced they are), to get them back on track with a strong foundation. 

[athena1277]

I know it’s not a popular opinion, but schools have got to quit passing kids who haven’t mastered the material.  Yes, failing a grade would be embarrassing and not be great for self-esteem, but how does it help to get to college or the workforce and not understand basic writing and math?  What’s the motivation to do the work to learn the material if you don’t have to?

[maize]

Regarding English skills, I wonder how much of the problem is reduced reading.

Kids who read seem to be much more the exception than they were when I was a kid. One of my kids is taking a class at the local high school; the teacher asked the class what their favorite book was and more than 1/3rd of the students answered that they don't have a favorite book because they don't read.

Edited Wednesday at 11:29 PM by maize

[ScoutTN]

43 minutes ago, regentrude said:

It has to be mind-numbing to have professors cover subject-verb agreement and active vs passive voice. "Equalizer" just means marching to the beat of the slowest drummer. College should not be a continuation of highschool in this respect.  Let's waive freshman comp for anyone who can write a well-organized paragraph if they have to remediate junior high language mechanics. Just like we don't have calculus-ready students place in developmental algebra.

Don’t most colleges already do this? My daughter placed out of two levels of English comp based on her SAT scores. She’ll take Literature, but no comp courses.

[catz]

48 minutes ago, regentrude said:

t has to be mind-numbing to have professors cover subject-verb agreement and active vs passive voice. "Equalizer" just means marching to the beat of the slowest drummer.

Oh for sure.  Neither of my kids really had that experience at all though.  That sounds so remedial.  They did feel confident early during some of those gen eds they hadn't covered sooner.  They each did 2 years of community college in an urban area, and didn't even feel that way about CC classes.  I do think some of those teachers were extra skilled baby stepping their struggling students that maybe were language learners and their more academic and prepared students.  There was a kid that transferred to MIT from the CC my daughter was at not too long ago.  

I do also wonder about standardized tests and the value of those since scores seem to be ever higher.

Edited Wednesday at 11:21 PM by catz

[livetoread]

Both of my kids have finished college now (mid-tier public universities), and both took majors that one would expect would require critical thinking skills. I was floored as both went through college without really having to read information and decide on their own what was important and likely test material. Over and over, they were assigned reading but then the professors outlined it for them and only tested from their own outlines.

I worked with both kids in high school trying to teach them how to read textbooks, highlighting the important info in each paragraph and then taking notes outlining the key points. They both struggled as they both have learning issues, but I sent them off to college with my fingers crossed that it was enough. I didn't need to worry - the professors did that for them with nice power points posted online.

It seems to me that is a really important skill for digesting the huge amounts of information thrown at them now, but I'm not sure many are learning it even in college. 

[*****]

That's good old Common Core for you!  That's what we had before covid.  I remember when the schools dropped textbooks and the teachers were copying  things off like crazy for math (back then it was NY Math I believe.)   I was thinking how could everyone across the country possibly be hitting the same goals as every grade level in every state if you do away with texts and willy, nilly copy pages off the internet? 

I had been a special education teacher for years and at the time was considering maybe teaching general education. But when I found out the texts were gone and teachers were copying pages, I said no thanks, that's what the publishers were for.   Most teachers in that district jumped ship at the end of the year and went elsewhere. idk if they found anything better...but this end result is a catastrophe.  

[maize]

Just now, ***** said:

That's good old Common Core for you!  That's what we had before covid.  I remember when the schools dropped textbooks and the teachers were copying  things off like crazy for math (back then it was NY Math I believe.)   I was thinking how could everyone across the country possibly be hitting the same goals as every grade level in every state if you do away with texts and willy, nilly copy pages off the internet? 

I had been a special education teacher for years and at the time was considering maybe teaching general education. But when I found out the texts were gone and teachers were copying pages, I said no thanks, that's what the publishers were for.   Most teachers in that district jumped ship at the end of the year and went elsewhere. idk if they found anything better...but this end result is a catastrophe.  

There's nothing about common core standards though that requires doing away with texts.

I agree that a lot of textbooks got thrown out and not replaced when common core was adopted, but that's an implementation problem not a standards problem.

[*****]

I understand that, Maize, and maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But the idea of Common Core was that kids were to be taught skills that were the same in each grade. So if a child moved across the state or country, he wouldn't miss out on skills as much as previous years because they were standardized for each grade.  So of course text companies would publish material that would hit those same skills in their books.  But when overworked teachers are copying pages and pages from various publishers, I'm saying really, how can you make sure you have covered all that you should have? 

  I'm not looking for an argument, just suggesting, that yes, this could be part of the problem. Our schools are working very hard to meet the standards, have sent teachers to math programs to come back and train the rest of the teachers. They thought they were doing great. And then I read this about so many students  presently in college unable to do basic math skills and all. I am frustrated for all. I'm saying that maybe the way that they are teaching math these days really isn't the best, and it all started with Common Core. Setting standards was a good idea, but obviously there are still some things that were wrong with it.

[SanDiegoMom]

6 minutes ago, ***** said:

 

  I'm not looking for an argument, just suggesting, that yes, this could be part of the problem. Our schools are working very hard to meet the standards, have sent teachers to math programs to come back and train the rest of the teachers. They thought they were doing great. And then I read this about so many students  presently in college unable to do basic math skills and all. I am frustrated for all. I'm saying that maybe the way that they are teaching math these days really isn't the best, and it all started with Common Core. Setting standards was a good idea, but obviously there are still some things that were wrong with it.

I don't think it's necessarily that anything went wrong because of it, I think that it just didn't fix what is at the core of the issue.   Which is poorly written textbooks or materials taught by teachers that don't necessarily have a firm grasp on the materials themselves sometimes. 

My daughter who is 24 went through K-12 and missed most of Common Core.  She attended three elementary schools.  She had probably five different math curriculums at least.  Her third grade had leveled math which broke out according to abilities (tested every quarter) but they used handouts.  This was back in 2007. Her fifth grade teacher WROTE the math book (basically a bound set of worksheets), but he wasn't writing to any standards, and there were literally no word problems the entire year. 

The algebra and geometry textbooks she brought home in middle and high school were incredibly busy and distracting (she is late diagnosed adhd and the books were a mess for her).  

 

[73349]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

Anyone could find resources to learn just about anything. But there's his mindset of learned helplessness...

I think a lot of times, people don't know what they don't know, so it doesn't occur to them to go looking for it. Teens don't graduate high school with, say, a 3.7, get into college, and arrive with the assumption that K-12 failed them on multiple fronts and they'll have to put in an extra hour a day for remedial work. Parents often claim that their own child's school is better than the state and district averages; they don't think their kids will be unprepared for a college that admits them.

It compounds the issue when people have not learned to formulate useful questions. Google might be able to find matches to a query in milliseconds, but it won't answer a question it isn't asked.

Edited Thursday at 12:11 AM by 73349

[Shelydon]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

It has to be mind-numbing to have professors cover subject-verb agreement and active vs passive voice. "Equalizer" just means marching to the beat of the slowest drummer. College should not be a continuation of highschool in this respect.  Let's waive freshman comp for anyone who can write a well-organized paragraph if they have to remediate junior high language mechanics. Just like we don't have calculus-ready students place in developmental algebra.

I am having my younger kids CLEP Rhet and Comp for this reason 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Kids who read seem to be much more the exception than they were when I was a kid. One of my kids is taking a class at the local high school; the teacher asked the class what their favorite book was and more than 1/3rd of the students answered that they don't have a favorite book because they don't read.

DS18 reads wiki pages while DS19 reads technical stuff related to his hobbies. So I wouldn’t assume that not having a favorite book means they don’t read. I didn’t have a favorite book either. 
DS19 is a good reader but not a good writer. He was surprised that he managed to pass AP English language and AP English Literature. When he took English classes at community college, he got As probably from being coherent and grammatically sound because quality wise, his assignments weren’t A grade quality. He had an A for technical writing in college and that I can understand because he is much better at writing technical stuff like project proposals and documentations. 
Public high schools don’t want to hurt their students chances at college applications and so they would grade inflate if the regional schools do it. Students do not know their standard unless they took AP exams (not perfect but a better proxy than grades). When they take the English and Math placement exams at the college they are going to attend, some would get a shock that they place much lower than expected. Then they panic that they can’t graduate in four years and will run out of CalGrant (California) aid. 

[Bootsie]

Some of the problem that I have seen at a large four-year state university is that the university is REQUIRED to accept credits from community college.  Many students are coming into college having already fulfilled their math and English requirements through dual credit or attending a community college first.  Often the community college class is taught by an overworked/underpaid adjunct, and now often it is online.  There are also governmental pressures on the community colleges to keep the students in school--which means passing them.  

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Regarding English skills, I wonder how much of the problem is reduced reading.

Kids who read seem to be much more the exception than they were when I was a kid. One of my kids is taking a class at the local high school; the teacher asked the class what their favorite book was and more than 1/3rd of the students answered that they don't have a favorite book because they don't read.

As a parent of both readers and “non”-readers, I’m not sure that completely tracks.  Probably an influence, but the kid who avoids reading the most in my house still recognizes how his native (and only) language is supposed to sound. He also HATES to write, but the same thing applies.   
How do these kids not know it doesn’t sound right??? (Assuming native language.)

*Please overlook any poor English from me. Hurrying as dd approaches the car to leave, lol. 

[bookbard]

I don't think it's just the USA. In Australia our scores in PISA for example are going down (esp the higher end - there's fewer 'top' students). I started a post here a while ago about poor writing at a post-grad level. You'd have to look at research to dig down and find out exactly what's going on. There's a lot that has changed - bigger gap between rich and poor, internet/phones, politics more involved in education (it changes here everytime there's a change in govt, it seems), and the change in universities to a 'business model'. 

The most obvious one to me is the use of screens leading to a decrease in reading. But there's no going back on that, sadly. 

[Rosie_0801]

13 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

How do these kids not know it doesn’t sound right??? (Assuming native language.)

Around here that happens because pretty much everyone they know is poor and dyslexic. Since schools don't bother to teach well, they all think they're too stupid to learn anyway, which only fuels an us v them mentality that already exists from class and age, so they retreat to where they feel less judged.

[EKS]

2 hours ago, athena1277 said:

I know it’s not a popular opinion, but schools have got to quit passing kids who haven’t mastered the material.

This.  

We also need to stop insisting that everyone should go to college.  

And we need to start requiring the SAT/ACT again.  Grades mean nothing if they aren't backed up by test scores.  

[Shelydon]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I was reading the essay a student applying for selective study abroad experience had written.  She was finishing her junior year of college.  The essay was so poorly written, I counted ONE complete sentence in a page-and-a-half of typewritten text.  This was a highly motivated student.  She had access to spell check and grammar check.  She could have someone proofread the essay before submitting it.  There were groupings of words like "Being that this is a wonderful experience and a great educational opportunity."  and "This trip are exciting honor and beneficial to learning."  I had her transcript as part of the application package; I looked to see what grades she made in Freshman Comp.  She had earned all of her English credit (with straight A's) in a special high school program in which high school students got their first two years of college credit taking "college" classes while at 16 and 17, instead of being in high school.  It is hard once a relatively bright person has leap frogged over the basics (and been told how advanced they are), to get them back on track with a strong foundation. 

This is what I am seeing. It is crazy to me

[SKL]

3 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Don’t most colleges already do this? My daughter placed out of two levels of English comp based on her SAT scores. She’ll take Literature, but no comp courses.

Yes, this is a possibility for many kids.  However, I didn't think my kids were learning enough to justify skipping college English, and they were both targeting programs / careers that require decent writing.  There were other factors at play for each kid that meant this option wasn't a fit for them.

[Heartstrings]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

It has to be mind-numbing to have professors cover subject-verb agreement and active vs passive voice. "Equalizer" just means marching to the beat of the slowest drummer. College should not be a continuation of highschool in this respect.  Let's waive freshman comp for anyone who can write a well-organized paragraph if they have to remediate junior high language mechanics. Just like we don't have calculus-ready students place in developmental algebra.

Is that not standard?  Way back when I started college I was placed into the 2nd level of Comp because of my ACT English score and just missed getting to skip Comp 2.  I assumed everywhere did that.  

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

As a parent of both readers and “non”-readers, I’m not sure that completely tracks.  Probably an influence, but the kid who avoids reading the most in my house still recognizes how his native (and only) language is supposed to sound. ...

I tend to agree.  My youngest abhors writing, but she was a voracious reader for most of her life.  She seems to struggle to put her thoughts together on paper.  My eldest has read very few books "for fun," but she's generally a better writer / communicator than her sister (not with mechanics but with composition).

Both of my kids were exposed to good literature via read-alouds, audiobooks, and some books that they were "forced" to read.  I assume that had some effect.  But like you said, the ability to write doesn't really track with the motivation to read.

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

I tend to agree.  My youngest abhors writing, but she was a voracious reader for most of her life.  She seems to struggle to put her thoughts together on paper.  My eldest has read very few books "for fun," but she's generally a better writer / communicator than her sister (not with mechanics but with composition).

Both of my kids were exposed to good literature via read-alouds, audiobooks, and some books that they were "forced" to read.  I assume that had some effect.  But like you said, the ability to write doesn't really track with the motivation to read.

I agree.  My biggest reader and consumer of audiobooks can use extensive vocabulary and speak in complex sentences but struggles with writing.  

[regentrude]

57 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Is that not standard?  Way back when I started college I was placed into the 2nd level of Comp because of my ACT English score and just missed getting to skip Comp 2.  I assumed everywhere did that.  

Nope. Not standard. Only AP or DE gets out of it here. 

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, Bootsie said:

Some of the problem that I have seen at a large four-year state university is that the university is REQUIRED to accept credits from community college.  Many students are coming into college having already fulfilled their math and English requirements through dual credit or attending a community college first.  Often the community college class is taught by an overworked/underpaid adjunct, and now often it is online.  There are also governmental pressures on the community colleges to keep the students in school--which means passing them.  

It's not just community college. There are cases of abysmally dumbed down classes at four-year universities that are intentional and not because of overworked adjuncts. And other unis are required to accept these transfer credits because all that's ever evaluated is a syllabus, which says absolutely nothing about the rigor of the course. Don't get me started. And once word gets around, students will take the mickeymouse class at the other uni, basically buy themselves an A, and transfer the credit to their own school - which is out the tuition money and now has students with serious gaps. Great system.

[Heartstrings]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

Nope. Not standard. Only AP or DE gets out of it here. 

Oh wow.  I just figured every place did that.   

[historically accurate]

29 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Oh wow.  I just figured every place did that.   

No, I've never heard of that in my area.

Edited Thursday at 12:02 PM by historically accurate

[Faith-manor]

7 hours ago, regentrude said:

It's not just community college. There are cases of abysmally dumbed down classes at four-year universities that are intentional and not because of overworked adjuncts. And other unis are required to accept these transfer credits because all that's ever evaluated is a syllabus, which says absolutely nothing about the rigor of the course. Don't get me started. And once word gets around, students will take the mickeymouse class at the other uni, basically buy themselves an A, and transfer the credit to their own school - which is out the tuition money and now has students with serious gaps. Great system.

It reminds me of the class at one Michigan university that was only for the football players. It satisfied their history gen ed. "History Through Nursery Rhymes". It had a " syllabus", however the weekly requirement was that each student bring a nursery rhyme to class to read aloud, and a coloring page for the class. I am not making this up. My kid who attended this university and was working his butt off in his major was furious. That was the whole class. Read a nursery rhyme, color a page, and then sit around and talk. Lots of students would try to get a seat in that class, but if they weren't on the football team, it was a no go. The NCAA from time to time claims it is cracking down on this stuff, yet reality would suggest that it is slap on the wrist and "wink wink, nod nod" to the universities to keep going.

None of my kids encountered much of what is described in this thread. But three matriculated to U of MI, and one to a university in the U.P. which should be much much higher in national ranking because he got the best education of all of them, tippy top. His older cousin, a graduate of Princeton, thinks our ds got a better education than he did! Standards were high. All my kids were directly admitted to honors programs so maybe that had something to do with it.

My nephew said at Princeton they don't really have dumbed down classes for the legacy admits, it is just a matter that those students are not allowed to be failed no matter how lazy or inept, and do not even have to attend class. They simply party and enjoy life for four years, and then are gifted a degree because mommy and daddy made the right size donations to the university. That is nothing new. I am pretty sure most universities let the legacy admits slough off big time in order to pander for dollars. It happened back in my day for sure, just not in the music department because it is impossible to hide lack of ability and talent at that level, and music professors are notoriously maniacal, thriving on the torture of their students like that villain from the Star Trek reboot movies, Kruhl. My guess is legacy admits were funneled into business or communications, or similar majors where the professors failed them, and then the dean promptly changed their grades.

The American education system is in shambles. There are so very many factors to consider, but it simply has to start with fixing the foundation. I truly believe the 1st change had to be stop all the stupid, developmentally inappropriate kindergarten, academic nonsense that practically sets them up for failure, and then follow that with throwing out the garbage curriculum. Start with something decent, even just Saxon phonics and math with some whole/sight word instruction thrown in. But really teachers could be trained on how to use Singapore Math which would be better. Just knock off the garbage. Then we have to dismantle the bubble test stranglehold, and we have to accept that not all children arrive at school on equal footing and look at teaching the student in front of us, not the student we wish we had in our dreams, and provide enough staff to see to it that children who need extra attention and tutoring get that. 

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

 

The American education system is in shambles. There are so very many factors to consider, but it simply has to start with fixing the foundation. I truly believe the 1st change had to be stop all the stupid, developmentally inappropriate kindergarten, academic nonsense that practically sets them up for failure, and then follow that with throwing out the garbage curriculum. Start with something decent, even just Saxon phonics and math with some whole/sight word instruction thrown in. But really teachers could be trained on how to use Singapore Math which would be better. Just knock off the garbage. Then we have to dismantle the bubble test stranglehold, and we have to accept that not all children arrive at school on equal footing and look at teaching the student in front of us, not the student we wish we had in our dreams, and provide enough staff to see to it that children who need extra attention and tutoring get that. 

I believe a lot of the problem comes from high-stakes testing.  Schools and teachers are graded on test scores so that becomes all that matters.  Teach to the test.  If it's not tested, it's not taught.  And the tests are taken on the computer, so kids have to start using computers very young and writing, coloring, cutting, etc. aren't done anymore.  Writing, P.E., art, music, etc. are reduced or eliminated.  It's very sad.  

[Library Momma]

12 hours ago, Bootsie said:

Some of the problem that I have seen at a large four-year state university is that the university is REQUIRED to accept credits from community college.  Many students are coming into college having already fulfilled their math and English requirements through dual credit or attending a community college first.  Often the community college class is taught by an overworked/underpaid adjunct, and now often it is online.  There are also governmental pressures on the community colleges to keep the students in school--which means passing them.  

This is not the case in my state.  Community college here is far from college level material and the classes can only transfer to state colleges and some LACs, not the state university.  High Schools that offer DE classes (called ECE now but DE in my day)only do so with either our state university or highly regarded private schools  - They want to ensure that the transfer credits will be accepted by a wider variety of schools.

One things that I have noticed over the years is that not only are more students headed to college, but they are attempting to surpass their reach.  When I graduated high school in 1987 the top AP level students all went to either ivies, top private schools or the best public universities we could.  We roamed the halls with the Forbes best colleges book like it was the bible.  Even though I was in Connecticut I didn't know one student from my cohort that went to UConn, that was for the next tier of students.  

Now things are different college is expensive and the best schools are almost impossible to get into so you do see top tier students heading to our own state flagship and even the state colleges.  But you also see students who took basic classes - No honors or AP going to average or low level private colleges (because their parents can afford that) and say they are majoring in neuroscience or engineering.  How can a student that never even made it to prealgebra in HS major in engineering.  Then sure enough when they get there they either change majors, transfer to a local state college or drop out.  Covid and the elimination of SATs exacerbated this further.  

 

[fairfarmhand]

My friend just put her kids into the local school. Nobody’s supposed to have anything in the hallways or classrooms except their school issued laptop and laptop case. No notebooks, papers, purses or backpacks are permitted out of the lockers unless someone is arriving or going home.

I can’t figure out how math is supposed to work without pencil and paper. Maybe the teachers have them in the room? But my scattered kid would have so much trouble keeping up with a pile of worksheets or papers all day rather than a notebook or backpack. 
 

my ds is virtual. I generally find a used copy of the etext on eBay and purchase it and he’s been very grateful. He says he learns better with paper books and I believe it. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

My friend just put her kids into the local school. Nobody’s supposed to have anything in the hallways or classrooms except their school issued laptop and laptop case. No notebooks, papers, purses or backpacks are permitted out of the lockers unless someone is arriving or going home.

I can’t figure out how math is supposed to work without pencil and paper. Maybe the teachers have them in the room? But my scattered kid would have so much trouble keeping up with a pile of worksheets or papers all day rather than a notebook or backpack. 
 

my ds is virtual. I generally find a used copy of the etext on eBay and purchase it and he’s been very grateful. He says he learns better with paper books and I believe it. 

Our high school tried the whole "nothing but the approved Chrome book case can be on your person once school starts and until it ends" routine. So the girls started taping tampons and pads to their locker doors so they could grab them going by. That ended the nonsense quickly. Even the boys were like, "This is stupid. How are they supposed to take care of their needs?" Seriously, administrators of schools and school board members appear to be an element of humanity that have zero, critical thinking skills, and definitely do not seem to actually care for their students one bit. Not all of course. We hear the superperson principal and superintendent stories every once in a while. But they seem to be quite rare, like unicorns!

[happypamama]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Our high school tried the whole "nothing but the approved Chrome book case can be on your person once school starts and until it ends" routine. So the girls started taping tampons and pads to their locker doors so they could grab them going by. That ended the nonsense quickly. 

I have to say that this was brilliant and I am so proud of the girls. It's up there with my friend whose son considered wearing a crop top to school because the dress code specifically said that girls could not wear crop tops. 

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Seriously, administrators of schools and school board members appear to be an element of humanity that have zero, critical thinking skills, and definitely do not seem to actually care for their students one bit.

People involved in creating educational policy don't seem to understand that education and all it entails is a complex system (I mean that in the technical sense) and messing with a complex system willy nilly is sure to result in unintended consequences.

[Bootsie]

Sometimes the students' creative writing skills are much better than their skills at writing about an academic matter.  I have had to explain to students that when they are turning in an essay in an college economics class that they don't make up numbers and quotes like they were taught to do to write contrived SAT or AP exam essay.  

I had an interesting experience yesterday.  My students had a business case that they were to read before class in preparation for the class discussion.  They knew they would have a short quiz at the beginning of class to make sure they had read it and were prepared for the discussion.  The case was a about a company that does study abroad programs for American high school and college students in Europe.  I gave 5 multiple choice questions like What is this companies major line of business?  a) study abroad; b) athletic training; c) athlesiure manufacturing and d) auto production.  And then I asked an open ended question regarding what was the major issue facing the company in the case.  I had a few students who did a marvelous job of crafting a story about the labor issue the automobile manufacturer was dealing with in China.... weaving together a wonderful story from the (obvious to anyone who had glanced at the reading) wrong mutliple choice question answers.  

 

[SKL]

Yes, my kids really didn't read in preparation in high school.  In their defense, it's hard to read anything on those stupid Chromebooks.  I can't believe it isn't hard on the eyes and the brain.  And the skeletal/muscular system for that matter.  Then add vision issues, a concussion, etc....  The problem is that they now don't have the habit of doing what's needed to succeed in college.  I've warned them, but we're past mom monitoring / controlling this stuff.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, Library Momma said:

This is not the case in my state.  Community college here is far from college level material and the classes can only transfer to state colleges and some LACs, not the state university.  High Schools that offer DE classes (called ECE now but DE in my day)only do so with either our state university or highly regarded private schools  - They want to ensure that the transfer credits will be accepted by a wider variety of schools.

 

 

I know that the prevalence of community colleges differs from state to state.  But, I am curious about this. Just doing some browing, I haven't found a state that has communithy colleges that does not allow credits to transfer to a state university.  For example CT State Community college has dual enrollment classes. and I see on University of Connecticut's website a list of transfer equivalencies for English courses at CT State Community college.  

[Lady Marmalade]

I'm IN college classes right now. It's amazing the instructions the professors have to give when assigning a paper. Even after all that, there is almost always a general announcement to the class after the papers have been graded with how they are supposed to be formatted or a reminder to pay attention to the syllabus and the rubrics because spelling and grammar count towards the grade. 

The critical thinking skills are something else as well. My classes are online and asynchronous, which means that I am supposed to interact with my classmates and instructors via message boards each week. The requirements include a minimum number of times that I am supposed to respond to my classmates and that is really hard when the comments from them bear no relevance to the subject at hand. Questions that begin with "share a real-life situation" and then the student says "This isn't exactly the same but..."  I don't know how the instructors do it. I really don't. I watch my classes as recordings and the number of times people will say something completely out of context or irrelevant and then the professor deftly re-directs it back is amazing to me. 

It improved some when I moved from the 200 level classes to the 300 and 400 level, but I'm taking one masters level class right now and it's absolutely amazing how people can churn out paragraphs of information and still say absolutely nothing. 

[Library Momma]

16 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I know that the prevalence of community colleges differs from state to state.  But, I am curious about this. Just doing some browing, I haven't found a state that has communithy colleges that does not allow credits to transfer to a state university.  For example CT State Community college has dual enrollment classes. and I see on University of Connecticut's website a list of transfer equivalencies for English courses at CT State Community college.  

It is something the state has been working on trying to change.  In 2023 (just last year)all of the community colleges in the state merged under one umbrella and I believe they urged UConn to start accepting the credits but the transfer requests are strictly evaluated.  I don't know of anyone who has had success in transferring a class that wasn't considered an elective.   The small state universities all have always had successful transfer relationships but they are not part of UConn.  

[wendyroo]

20 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I know that the prevalence of community colleges differs from state to state.  But, I am curious about this. Just doing some browing, I haven't found a state that has communithy colleges that does not allow credits to transfer to a state university.  For example CT State Community college has dual enrollment classes. and I see on University of Connecticut's website a list of transfer equivalencies for English courses at CT State Community college.  

Here in Michigan transfers between in-state schools are governed by The Michigan Transfer Agreement, but in no way does it guarantee all courses will transfer. There is a spreadsheet you can search to see what exactly what will transfer how. For example, not even one class from our local community college will automatically transfer to the University of Michigan, not even as elective credit. That doesn't necessarily mean that courses wouldn't transfer, just that they are not guaranteed, and that you would have to convince UofM of their rigor...which would be difficult since they are decidedly NOT rigorous in any way, shape or form.

The spreadsheet has definitely helped us in forming dual enrollment plans. My son took one class at the community college last year, but has now moved on to more rigorous institutions specifically because he wants easy, automatic transfer credits. This year he is taking math classes at one local college and Spanish classes at another because those are their stronger programs with courses that tend to transfer most places (even UofM).